So Obama is going to fuck us all in the ass

[DaneO'Roo]

MouUJNG8f2k

Part 1

e-KJCMWcoms

Part 2

Brb, building bunker to hide from the shit slinging fan.

[CN3089]

Therefor DeepJournal interviewed Webster Tarpley on the topic of his recently published book Obama, The Postmodern Coup,The Making of a Manchurian Candidate.

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[Heathen]

so I dont feel like sitting and spending my morning watching videos.

Explain?

[Bodzilla]

seems a bit speculative to me.

but.... i didnt know he was in cahoots with the Rockfellas.

E: moved on to part 2.
this guys looney, and i've watched and agreed with the Zeitgeist movies.

[DaneO'Roo]

I saw it coming from day one. The government assassinated JFK, a fucking white irish catholic. That's because he didn't agree with their plans for Vietnam.

Obama has survived this long simply because "change" is on the way.


But hey, Russia and China arent stupid. Probably explains why they've been having lots of talks with other counties lately. Maybe gearing up for an all out brawl?



Ok Heathen, basically, Obama is the same old shit with a vibrant new smell. He could just ironically be the worst of them all, even.

[Bodzilla]

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dane.

[CN3089]

The government assassinated JFK
well, aren't you just precious http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-allears.gif

[Heathen]

Throw that thing around too much CN and it wont have the same lulz.

And I don't know about all that, but I will wait until the last possible second to say something about whether or not I agree.

I hate to be in the group with "those guys" so before I go speculating my ass off I will see for myself. I agree that Obama lacks the resources to do most of the changes he proposed but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

[MetKiller Joe]

Obama's economic team, there's a guy called Austin Goolsby, who is a professor of economic's at the University of Chicago, this means he belongs to these infamous Chicago boys founded by Milton Friedman. They say: Government is the problem, smash big government and let the market work. And Goolsby has been on television saying that the Obama campaign respects the market much more than mrs. Clinton. Mrs. Clinton has called for a stop on forclosures to prevent people from been thrown out of their house. Goolsby says: No, that interferes with the market. Mrs. Clinton said: Let's lift the gasoline tax on the public and switch the taxation to Exxon Mobil and BP and Chevron and make them pay out of there super profits that they got in speculating in the oil market. These companies are now bringing in 10 billion dollars each every three or four months, so that's obscene super profits. Goolsby says: No, we can't touch any of that. Goolsby is also the guy who was caught negotiating with the Canadians telling them don't mind what Obama says about free trade: He's a free trader, I'm a free trader, we gonna have more free trade sell outs. The North American Free Trade Zone is gonna be preserved and expanded, so don't listen to what he said, he's just demagoguing the issue for these poor little unemployment workers at Pensylvania and Ohio. So, that's Goolsby. So Goolsby is a member of Skull and Bones. If you want an administration without Skull and Bones you better not pick Obama, because his main economics guy is from Skull and Bones and from this Chicago School, so Goolsby is a free trader.


So, this guy thinks that Goolsby being a free trader is a bad thing? That forcing the market to do things that are unnatural is a good thing? That expanding NAFTA is a bad thing (free trade to nations outside the US, free trade with Canada and the South Americas (God, the wealth people would obtain))?

Obama is not a stupid ass. He will not go against Russia. His advisors may be crazy, but there is no way in hell he won't stop when he sees $10 Trillion in the red. Also, if Obama is any kind of smart, he will never think, in a million years to indirectly interefering with China. They are becoming a capitalist nation and are becoming wealthier. If we do anything to them it will be negotations for an alliance not a political snafu.

It really looks like this guy took one thing and blew it way out of proportion.

[DaneO'Roo]

Urgh, I really don't care CN. Please try harder.


I'd pray to any god or deity that your right. As history has shown us though, your wrong.


Also way to hypocrite Bodie. All your splurgings of righteousness and freedom of speech and down with oppression yet your willing to jump on the Obama bandwagon just simply "cuz"?


Who actually knows ANYTHING about Obama. Really.


It does not matter what they promise on the campaign trail. Once they're elected, they're taken into the big smokey room with the federal bankers cartel and he either has to say yes or no.

The last time someone said no, JFK happened. I'm not spurting bullshit I'm stating facts that your all so willing to ignore and shove off because LOL CONSPIRACY WAGONS A CHUGGIN PLEASE GET ON IT LOLOL YOUR CRAZY PERSON LOLOLOLOL


See, I remember when George Bush got elected the first time. I remember what he promised, I remember the praise he recieved.

It doesn't matter how nice they are on the fucking trail, they turn nasty once the puppet strings start jangling.


Met killer you make some good points but your still ignoring the fact that Obama has no say in anything.


It cannot hurt to question the integrity of the man who is going to have his finger on the fucking button, ok. Call me a nut, whatever, fuck yourself, your a superior troll, a walking meme, thank you for contributing nothing but emoticons, that's your deal. If I'm wrong, yay, If I'm right, I don't wanna have to say haha later. I'd rather people be aware as much as they can be now.

[MetKiller Joe]

Met killer you make some good points but your still ignoring the fact that Obama has no say in anything.


It cannot hurt to question the integrity of the man who is going to have his finger on the fucking button, ok. Call me a nut, whatever, fuck yourself, your a superior troll, a walking meme, thank you for contributing nothing but emoticons, that's your deal. If I'm wrong, yay, If I'm right, I don't wanna have to say haha later. I'd rather people be aware as much as they can be now.

You are completely right, I believe that for most politicians lie about there ideas.

But can you blame him? If his advisors are right, which at least his economist is and will probably create veins for wealth to accrue not only to the upper but also give jobs to the lower for the goods that will be needed, then he only needs to listen to them.

Unfortunately, most Americans don't know anything about economics and they'd rather believe that punishing those who have is the universal solution. It is not. If he had mentioned this, he wouldn't have been able to do something good for this country and bring it out of the well of debt Bush put us in.

[Bodzilla]

Also way to hypocrite Bodie. All your splurgings of righteousness and freedom of speech and down with oppression yet your willing to jump on the Obama bandwagon just simply "cuz"?

i do think JFK was assassinated by his own people and i do support freedom of speech and yes i despise the international banking elite.

But i dont think where going into Russia.
This guys going "then there going to do this, then that AND THEN WHERE GOING TO FUCK WITH RUSSIA AND CHINA AND TRY AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD".
and that i dont agree with. Theres no merit to base any of this on, it's all speculatory garbage.

The US is in enough trouble as it is with a 3 trillion dollar debt, an incompetent government who ran the country into the ground, the Credit crisis and the crippled economy.

the last thing they want is a war they cant win.

remember what happened last time america fucked with international resources to provoke an attack, Peal harbor got obliterated and Hiroshima got Bombed.

they cant do anything like that now, they're crippled.

E: do you even know what being a hypocrite is dane. I've not said one thing and acted against it later. I've merely stated my opinion that he's a fucking looney bastard that doesnt have a shred of evidence to support the proverbial exaggerated bullshit he's speaking.

Being a sheep or an anti-sheep is irrelevant and utterly pointless,
because at the end of the day your still just a fucking sheep.

E2: and according to this idiot arnt we supposed to be using obama as a puppet to support and persuade them to our side so they can be used as a tool against the motherland?
oh thats right instead where advocating muslim genocide in the Gaza strip by supporting Israel.

so far so good.

[FRain]

Urgh, I really don't care CN. Please try harder.


I'd pray to any god or deity that your right. As history has shown us though, your wrong.


Also way to hypocrite Bodie. All your splurgings of righteousness and freedom of speech and down with oppression yet your willing to jump on the Obama bandwagon just simply "cuz"?


Who actually knows ANYTHING about Obama. Really.


It does not matter what they promise on the campaign trail. Once they're elected, they're taken into the big smokey room with the federal bankers cartel and he either has to say yes or no.

The last time someone said no, JFK happened. I'm not spurting bullshit I'm stating facts that your all so willing to ignore and shove off because LOL CONSPIRACY WAGONS A CHUGGIN PLEASE GET ON IT LOLOL YOUR CRAZY PERSON LOLOLOLOL


See, I remember when George Bush got elected the first time. I remember what he promised, I remember the praise he recieved.

It doesn't matter how nice they are on the fucking trail, they turn nasty once the puppet strings start jangling.


Met killer you make some good points but your still ignoring the fact that Obama has no say in anything.


It cannot hurt to question the integrity of the man who is going to have his finger on the fucking button, ok. Call me a nut, whatever, fuck yourself, your a superior troll, a walking meme, thank you for contributing nothing but emoticons, that's your deal. If I'm wrong, yay, If I'm right, I don't wanna have to say haha later. I'd rather people be aware as much as they can be now.

i cba to watch the videos 15 minutes before I go to school, so I'll watch it later. I get the gyst of this, though.

Protip:

This is Speculation.

Nothing has been proven until it happens.

Honestly, do you believe everything that people say? We won't know until it HAPPENS.

Also: Are you saying that for disagreeing with you we're fucking retarded and are trolls that need to be banned? That's what I got when I read your post.

[Dwood]

Wait Dane calm down you're freaking out.

Btw tho I could have told you almost everything you've been speculating before the election that Obama is not known by people enough for them to make the right decisions on whether or not it would be a good idea for him to be in office.


EDIT:
HEHEHE

:lol: It's a massive right-wing :conspiracy!:

[MetKiller Joe]

I do support freedom of speech and yes i despise the international banking elite.


Banks do not control wealth and do not give wealth to those who are wealthier. Without them, investments for the future of all people could not be made. Without them, you could not buy a home out of college and live in the high standards of the US.



The US is in enough trouble as it is with a 3 trillion dollar debt, an incompetent government who ran the country into the ground, the Credit crisis and the crippled economy.


It is a system which banks used and violated and abused. One cannot hand out loans to people who cannot pay the interest, make those loans into tradeable assets, and then market them as "good" grade investment. Take this with salt as this is an extremely oversimplified version of what is happening. The bailout was a bad idea from the start (it will cause and is causing the dollar to collapse). But of course, it is not the government that is being evil. They are merely pleasing the workers who give them votes saying, "I want to keep my job!" The incomptent companies will run into a wall; this is the will of the market, and using a bailout will only throw gas into the fire.

[DaneO'Roo]

i do think JFK was assassinated by his own people and i do support freedom of speech and yes i despise the international banking elite.

Good. You don't seem to actually know what they're capable of though, despite your assumed awareness.

But i dont think where going into Russia.
This guys going "then there going to do this, then that AND THEN WHERE GOING TO FUCK WITH RUSSIA AND CHINA AND TRY AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD".
and that i dont agree with. Theres no merit to base any of this on, it's all speculatory garbage.

Um, Russia has been top priority since day 1. Anyone should know that.

That's why the US government has been so eager in it's domination of the middle east. Those countries are the neighbors of Russia and provide alot of resources to them.
Russia has always been Americas "rival" in the stakes of power.
He's not saying their going to go straight into china or russia, he's saying that by constricting Chinas oil supply in africa and forcing them to turn to Syria they can get China and Russia to fued and fight. The "change" coming is that sure, the us government won't attack anyone, they'll get everyone else to attack each other. I guarantee there's going to be more bloodshed this year, and not as much will be reported on TV.


The US is in enough trouble as it is with a 3 trillion dollar debt, an incompetent government who ran the country into the ground, the Credit crisis and the crippled economy.

Uh, the government never ran the country into the ground. I thought you knew about the federal banking cartel? They can easily just make up the money and clear the debt if they want to. It is after all a figmented currency. The deal is, this slide we're all having is intended. For what ever purpose I'm not TOTALLY sure, but I know this is all planned. See, the rest of the world might be feeling pretty shitty, but I bet the bankers are profiting higher than ever out of all this calamity.

the last thing they want is a war they cant win.

Yes, they could, if the population allowed them to.

remember what happened last time america fucked with international resources to provoke an attack, Peal harbor got obliterated and Hiroshima got Bombed.

they cant do anything like that now, they're crippled.

I guess you forget that the bankers actually want this.

E: do you even know what being a hypocrite is dane. I've not said one thing and acted against it later. I've merely stated my opinion that he's a fucking looney bastard that doesnt have a shred of evidence to support the proverbial exaggerated bullshit he's speaking.

I mean hypocrite in the sense that your saying one thing yet following another. You should be questioning at all times, not simply going along with things just because. Jesus man. As I said, it is perfectly reasonable to question the man whos going to be running the show. It doesn't matter how false or exaggerated the claims are, you should be investigating the knowledge rather than blowing it off completely when they can't give sources. It's all about preempting what's coming next. Ignore it, do whatever, your loss at the end for leaving so much faith in a human being controlled by money.

Being a sheep or an anti-sheep is irrelevant and utterly pointless,
because at the end of the day your still just a fucking sheep.

Yeah, but that's a different kind of sheep. I have no choice in how I live my life, it's a stranglehold. However of the mind I'm far from a fucking sheep. Your the one completely ignoring information and going along with the general consencus. Maybe if he was that cry baby british guy on youtube you'd regard un sourced information?

Please.

E2: and according to this idiot arnt we supposed to be using obama as a puppet to support and persuade them to our side so they can be used as a tool against the motherland?
oh thats right instead where advocating muslim genocide in the Gaza strip by supporting Israel.

Uh, how is that still not part of the plan? Have you noticed that the US hasn't jumped in on this one? With EVERY other stint like this, Georgia for a recent example, they have jumped in. This time, they're not. Why? Because the US don't care about Israel and Palistine. Maybe they wan't them to take each other out, shit, maybe they even started it behind the drapes.

Nothing is more profitable than war. I choose to keep myself aware and research and question the people who are going to be running our lives. Call me whatever the fuck you want, your the stupid and insane ones. Too much fuss over one man is always a bad thing.

so far so good.

.

[Phopojijo]

The US is in enough trouble as it is with a 3 trillion dollar debt, an incompetent government who ran the country into the ground, the Credit crisis and the crippled economy.The US Debt isn't 3 trillion... jeebus dude...

No that's just the extra debt (or rather, sudden loss of dollar value) we just found out about that threw the DOW Jones off in October.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/new-money/2008/10/09/maxing-out-the-national-debt-clock.html
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

Nah it's more like 10 trillion.
You're really screwed... not just screwed.

[MetKiller Joe]

Uh, the government never ran the country into the ground. I thought you knew about the federal banking cartel? They can easily just make up the money and clear the debt if they want to. It is after all a figmented currency. The deal is, this slide we're all having is intended. For what ever purpose I'm not TOTALLY sure, but I know this is all planned. See, the rest of the world might be feeling pretty shitty, but I bet the bankers are profiting higher than ever out of all this calamity.

Wrong. The banks in the states gave away loans which could not be paid off (hence the mortgage crisis). They sold these as tradable assets much like stocks. When nobody could pay the loans these assets collapsed. The system was abused (there were no regulations to prevent this abuse, and this is why it happened); people will always look for an easy way to make money, which is why the bankers used the riskiest people (in this case people who couldn't pay their mortgage) for a loan. This is simple human greed of a few people in the US banking industry. The German, Japanese, and hell, every other bank group other than the US's did not do this. Which is why it is not a "conspiracy" (although, admittedly, this is one of the easiet things to fall back to if you are forcing yourself to understand something with little foreknowledge).

[Phopojijo]

Which is where the problem stems from...

The wealth has already transferred to those doing the wrong-doings. When the system renormalizes to account for the sudden over-estimation of a country's wealth, the dollar itself rapidly drops.

Since in this case it would drop ~3 Trillion dollars... it's actually ~25-30% of the entire country's wealth.

**************************
((very simplified))
I'll give you an example -- lets say you have a country with 2 people in it... that has 100,000$ total. Bob has 50,000$, and Sally has 50,000$.

Now lets say Sally get 20,000$ from loans which didn't pay out. {{How to explain how this happens is kinda impossible, at least I can't think of how... for a country with only 2 people}}

Bob would then have 50,000$... and Sally would have 70,000$.

Since the country only HAD 100,000$, and now has 120,000$ {in spite of not actually increasing in value} -- the dollar's value would be divided by 1.2.

Bob would now have 41,666.67$ and Sally would have 58,333.33$

Bob never spent anything and yet he lost ~8,300$ to Sally.

********
That's the problem with the economy... you can't take the money from Sally because she already spent it by the time you noticed... and you can't it from Bob because he didn't do anything.

The plan right now is to adjust the budget so that the Government slowly pays for it with tax dollars.

... since that would be better than just dropping the dollar's value flat-out and putting people who "just get by" on the streets/welfare making the government need to pay more to clean THAT mess up... especially when you count how it'd damage the economy further with all the labour force suddenly unable to afford food and shelter.

[MetKiller Joe]

Which is where the problem stems from...

The wealth has already transferred to those doing the wrong-doings. When the system renormalizes to account for the sudden over-estimation of a country's wealth, the dollar itself rapidly drops.

You are misunderstanding the problem. Pulling money out of thin air is part of the issue, but it is not the entire issue (banks do not loan money out of thin air, they take it from savings account which is paid with interest, and the borrower pays an interest to make an investment now instead of later where as the saver is saving money for the future (a long term investment)).

I will not attempt to explain because how the dollar got devalued through a system that allowed inflated value assets to circulate is not something I understand, but I can tell you that the bailout didn't help. We somehow pulled all of that money out of thin air [mostly loans from countries] and now our debt is in the trillions and is increasing by a rate unimaginable to most people (think of how much we are spending per month on the military alone).

You'd have to spend a couple of semesters in college level economics courses to understand these issues, but the biggest danger is falling for the easy excuses of blaming somebody else for all of the problems.

It is an extremely complex issue.

Since in this case it would drop ~3 Trillion dollars... it's actually ~25-30% of the entire country's wealth.

The plan right now is to adjust the budget so that the Government slowly pays for it with tax dollars.

So, taxpayers who have been paying their bills on time will have to pay for losses? Your parents, and if you work, you will have to pay for some idiots mistake?

No, let the firms who made the mistake die. They obviously are incompetent and uncompetitive.

Edit: Sorry I didn't explain that well enough. The Government will have to raise taxes in order to put so much as a scratch on the debt. If they do, tax being a disincentive to work, putting will start working less, less revenue for the Government, which will increase taxes to recover losses. The cycle continues until there is nothing worth taxing.

If the firms die, nobody will have to bail them out. Inflation will not be helped by taking money away from people by taxing them. You need to pump the value back into the dollar, and the only way to do that is by becoming competitive again with the rest of the world, lower trade barriers, and become more efficient (in other words, work A LOT).

... since that would be better than just dropping the dollar's value flat-out and putting people who "just get by" on the streets/welfare making the government need to pay more to clean THAT mess up... especially when you count how it'd damage the economy further with all the labour force suddenly unable to afford food and shelter.

Ironically, that is the best thing you can do. If you keep putting band-aids on the economy, as we are doing, the dollar will collapse and we will become a third world country as inflation sky rockets.

Printing money to help the poor won't help. It will only cause inflation. That might have been a economically feasible solution in the 90s when we didn't have trillions of dollars worth in debt, but now, pulling more money out of thin air will worsen the situation and the poor, sooner or later, will be hit so hard there will be unimaginable poverty. Bite the bullet now, save some hurt from the people you want to protect, rather than later when it will be harsher than your wildest dreams.

The dollar will collapse, we've allowed it, and at this point, doing more things that will inflate the dollar will only worsen the situation.

Once the dollar fails, we will realize that we will have to stop many protectionist policies (which have allowed our banks and firms to become extremely sloppy) and very slowly (agonizingly) we will go back to some kind of prosperity (but no where near our peak).

.

[Phopojijo]

((Like I said, I do understand the issue quite well... {{Almost as well as it could be understood}} I'm simplifying the hell out of it.))

The problem is, if you just let the dollar's value drop flat-out...

As I illustrated in my Sally-Bob example.

Bob took a loss indiscriminately.

If the Government paid for it in taxes... they can adjust where the money comes from.

Think of it in the Sally Bob example...

If the dollar value drops... Sally and Bob both lost ~17%. (~11,700$ and ~8300$ respectively).

Since Sally is at fault... the government through taxes can force Sally to lose ~20% and Bob to lose ~12%

Bob saved 5% from simply just dropping the Dollar's value. That might keep him in the workforce... which would prevent the economy from collapsing further.

Note -- by what I mean "Collapsing Further" -- if Bob stops working... the Country would produce less... and then may be worth 80,000$... dropping the dollar value further, snowballing.

[MetKiller Joe]

((Like I said, I do understand the issue quite well... {{Almost as well as it could be understood}} I'm simplifying the hell out of it.))

The problem is, if you just let the dollar's value drop flat-out...

As I illustrated in my Sally-Bob example.

Bob took a loss indiscriminately.

If the Government paid for it in taxes... they can adjust where the money comes from.

Think of it in the Sally Bob example...

If the dollar value drops... Sally and Bob both lost ~17%. (~11,700$ and ~8300$ respectively).

Since Sally is at fault... the government through taxes can force Sally to lose ~20% and Bob to lose ~12%

Bob saved 5% from simply just dropping the Dollar's value. That might keep him in the workforce... which would prevent the economy from collapsing further.

Note -- by what I mean "Collapsing Further" -- if Bob stops working... the Country would produce less... and then may be worth 80,000$... dropping the dollar value further, snowballing.

In your example, Sally would have probably gone to the world bank or some other international bank for a loan. Then this would become an international problem (where say a borrower from Germany now lost his savings).

If you want to localize it, you could give the example of Sally wanting to invest in some capital to start a business with a projected earning of 100,000. She has 50,000 and needs 20,000 more to buy the capital she needs (valued at 70,000). She overestimates how much interest she will pay off, now Bob (who at this point has 20,000 in savings and because interest isn't being paid, he is loosing his money).

Eventually, Bob will lose his 20,000 and Sally will become or close to it (declare bankruptcy or loss of assets).

Now, Bob demands compensation. The bank goes to the government asking for a bailout or even more directly, to another bank for a 20,000 loan.

Taxes are not an adequate solution because Sally cannot pay taxes and Bob will be outraged at having to pay for somebody else's mistake.

Somebody will eventually have to pay this. And if the country, in the case the US, doesn't pay they have to either declare bankruptcy or start loosening the chains of protecting workers at home.

To me this is a more logical over-simplification.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that taxing people will not solve the problem. They will not work, and they will, in turn, make the problem worse. They need to work to regain the lost value of the currency.

[Phopojijo]

I understand but that is all irrelevant.

Dropping the dollar value is taxing everyone. It's taxing everyone the same amount (in percent, since a dollar's value is a ratio itself).

Taxing people individually based on logical factors (which thank God I'm not in charge of because that would be the job from hell) like how much wealth they can spare and how involved they were with the issue in the first place... is basically dropping the dollar's value, but weighted.

You're right though, there is another option... ((the actual solution will most likely be some combination of the two solutions))


They need to work to regain the lost value of the currency.Instead of lowering how much we value a country to match its worth... we could always increase production to match the value we assign it.

Obama has mentioned he is wishing to do that by building infrastructure (similar to how the 1930's Rural Electrification and 1940's WW2 helped the US after the great depression).

Will they be able to regain 3 trillion dollars? How long will it take? Dunno... but yes there obviously was a second way around the issue. ((Albeit then we need to worry about using up the Earth's resources as well... you know... it does get more complicated but... simplifications))

You can't simply say Oh you're don't understand how complex the issue is when we try to discuss this on an internet forum. Obviously there's some simplifications that need to be made not only to discuss with the demographic present... but to discuss in less than a 5 month's amount of time.

[MetKiller Joe]

I understand but that is all irrelevant.

Dropping the dollar value is taxing everyone. It's taxing everyone the same amount (in percent, since a dollar's value is a ratio itself).


Again, tax them more to pay off debt will decrease tax revenue. This will eventually lead to a dead end.



Taxing people individually based on logical factors (which thank God I'm not in charge of because that would be the job from hell) like how much wealth they can spare and how involved they were with the issue in the first place... is basically dropping the dollar's value, but weighted.


Why tax? I mean, we shouldn't tax at all, we should just let the government get rid of things that are making us uncompetitive as a nation and then let the market straighten itself out . If we did tax, it would be an increased sales tax so people would stop spending, a subsidy to those who save and a subsidy to those who invest into big projects which will give us wealth in the future.



You're right though, there is another option... ((the actual solution will most likely be some combination of the two solutions))


I agree. Nobody wants to let our economy collapse, but not many people know economics, so they will want short-term solutions, which never work in the long-run.



Instead of lowering how much we value a country to match its worth... we could always increase production to match the value we assign it.


OK, but that is somewhat lofty. First, let the dollar collapse to its actual value, and then build up.


Obama has mentioned he is wishing to do that by building infrastructure (similar to how the 1930's Rural Electrification and 1940's WW2 helped the US after the great depression).


The government has enough to worry about. This is one of those things that I very much doubt will actually happen. If you let the market decide where to build, things will become more inefficient. No central planning board will ever be as efficient as a private company at making roads (when the US built the highways, we built them for military use; they had a purpose, and that is why people needed them. That is why they were built that way).



Will they be able to regain 3 trillion dollars? How long will it take? Dunno... but yes there obviously was a second way around the issue. ((Albeit then we need to worry about using up the Earth's resources as well... you know... it does get more complicated but... simplifications))


Of course, the private industry will adapt. We have a limited amount of resources that can be dealt out and if a firm is inefficient with those resources it will collapse under costs.



You can't simply say [B]Oh you're don't understand how complex the issue is when we try to discuss this on an internet forum. Obviously there's some simplifications that need to be made not only to discuss with the demographic present... but to discuss in less than a 5 month's amount of time.


I say this only because this issue is not black and white. It has many loose ends and one person, no offense to you, may bias it this way or that way.

I try to be somewhat reserved only because I know that I do not know everything about the current situation, and I am a little puzzled when somebody starts writing things which go completely against the laws of socio-political interactions, human nature, and economics (you have great ideas, and I understand that you have the best intentions and some understanding, but many others don't have either). By saying what I said, I was indirectly saying that I do not feel that the members of this forum have enough experience and education to adequately tackle these issues. They are huge. But I apologize for that because I was making a judgement.

[Bodzilla]

Dane, what the fuck are you babbling about.

and phopo and metkiller, your going round in circles fellas.

[Phopojijo]

If we did tax, it would be an increased sales tax so people would stop spending, a subsidy to those who save and a subsidy to those who invest into big projects which will give us wealth in the future.

&&

OK, but that is somewhat lofty. First, let the dollar collapse to its actual value, and then build up.How about I stop using the terms "tax".

The point is not to increase taxes and stuff...

The point is to balance where the money comes from. If you just kill the dollar value... the shock to the economy will cause aftershocks, etc. You'd not be thinking about who would get hit, and how hard... you'd simply be closing your eyes and letting the problem fix itself. It would get fixed eventually... but how eventually... and how many unnecessary problems would have came up before that happened?

There's 3 trillion dollars out there which simply shouldn't exist.

The only sensible way to recover the loss is carefully recover the value over a decent period of time to minimize damages. Not ignore it, not let it compound... but not have it run us down all at once.

You have a lot of good ideas... the only real thing I disagree with thus far is saying let the apocalypse happen, we'll clean it up later when we're perfectly capable at this point to soften the blow as much as possible.

That's really all I was saying... soften the blow... plan ahead and develop a strategy to minimize damage. Don't take a freight train to the face if it's possible to apply the brakes first.

[MetKiller Joe]

You have a lot of good ideas... the only real thing I disagree with thus far is saying let the apocalypse happen, we'll clean it up later when we're perfectly capable at this point to soften the blow as much as possible.

That's really all I was saying... soften the blow... plan ahead and develop a strategy to minimize damage. Don't take a freight train to the face if it's possible to apply the brakes first.

I base my economic collapse model on Jim Roger's theory of how most statist/protectionist governments fail. In the end, if we keep delaying, it will happen. It has happened in the real world before (think of the South Americas and the Spanish Empire). I'm not saying we should or will do anything. The market will, and it is a force akin to nature and physics.

Your scenario will probably win out though, but the only question I have in my mind is will it be a quicker, less painful death to our economy, and if not, will it be worth it? Will we regain prosperity that we lost or will be emerge again and be almost as prosperous.

You need only to look at how other countries have faced similar situations to see the eventual outcome.

[MetKiller Joe]

In the end governments have always fucked over the governed, whether it was intentionally or on purpose. The reason being that it is a hard job, if only a few people who make up the government are incompetent the entire system falls apart.

Have you read any of the post previous to this?

[Random]

Have you read any of the post previous to this?

Usually I would say yes, but no I didn't. I am bored.

[DarkHalo003]

Until I see Obama act like a dictator or sucky ass president, I won't bother criticizing him. He isn't even President yet, so there is nothing to back this up yet. People made conspiracies like this before. So please. [/conspiracy]

Many of y'all know I'm not an Obama supporter, but we still have to have some faith in our President. Until he does something stupid will I think about resorts in Canada.lol.

[Bodzilla]

Dark.... you should never have faith, in any tangible form. it just leads to manipulation.
you should always question what your being told.

the only thing here thats different (and what dane doesn't agree with) is i'm questioning the questioner. It doesn't make me blind or a band wagoner to ask questions of a person who makes wild accusations without a single shred of evidence.

[DarkHalo003]

Dark.... you should never have faith, in any tangible form. it just leads to manipulation.
you should always question what your being told.

the only thing here thats different (and what dane doesn't agree with) is i'm questioning the questioner. It doesn't make me blind or a band wagoner to ask questions of a person who makes wild accusations without a single shred of evidence.
I question a good bit about my government. It's just I'm putting some trust in Obama's decisions since there is nothing I can honestly do at my age about them. I don't pay taxes or can legally vote. Anyways, I guess we'll all know Obama's TRUE intentions, good or bad, on inauguration day.

[Dwood]

. Anyways, I guess we'll all know Obama's TRUE intentions, good or bad, on inauguration day.


More like after, because he's still going to kiss up to the American "people".

[CN3089]

Dane, what the fuck are you babbling about.

and phopo and metkiller, your going round in circles fellas.

THE FEDERAL BANKKKING CARTEL SMOKE FILLED ROOMS CIA KILLED JFK BUSH DID 9/11 OBAMA IS A NNNNNNNNNNNNN

[Gwunty]

http://conspiracylol.com/images/conspiracy.jpg

[dark57]

If obama fails we should all know who to blame...

[Donut]

http://conspiracylol.com/images/conspiracy.jpg
lol is that supposed to be the picture? or did you just get owned by an image site

[Phopojijo]

If obama fails we should all know who to blame...The fact that it was either him or McCain? o.O

[FRain]

going round in circles fellas.
This man makes alot of sense.

Calm the fuck down, guys. Dane, you're not making any sense. Phopo and Metkiller seem to be repeating what hes saying to you but you seem to just add another piece of information to your side of the argument so therefore we go in circles.

[MetKiller Joe]

This man makes alot of sense.

Calm the fuck down, guys. Dane, you're not making any sense. Phopo and Metkiller seem to be repeating what hes saying to you but you seem to just add another piece of information to your side of the argument so therefore we go in circles.

No, we seem to be going in circles, but really, we are just proving small, subtle niches in our arguments.

I respectfully disagree with Phopo, this "agree to disagree" is de facto. Though this is true, both of us understand that there is an underlying issue that is more complex than what the government can control, and because of this they are failing.

Why do people continue to blame scapegoats like politicians and people for their problems? Do you not realize you are doing the same thing that people have been doing for thousands of years? You are not being progressive, you are just giving the scapegoat a new name and solving your issues by putting your anger toward that scapegoat (God, Jews, Christians, Gypsies, Republicans, Democrats, whatever). They are not trying to understand the issue at any level except what they see is going on.

[nooBBooze]

Why do people continue to blame scapegoats like politicians and people for their problems? Do you not realize you are doing the same thing that people have been doing for thousands of years? You are not being progressive, you are just giving the scapegoat a new name and solving your issues by putting your anger toward that scapegoat (God, Jews, Christians, Gypsies, Republicans, Democrats, whatever). They are not trying to understand the issue at any level except what they see is going on.
I have to agree with you here if I grasped what you intended to say.

In the end it doesn't matter if politics is just a puppet show. But since mass-media in conjuncion with peer pressure pretty much have us thinking alike (even if our conflicting "opinions" tend to make us believe otherwise), I can see how searching for alternative means to interpret the hierarchies of power and their impact on the world enables one to reach a certain degree of scepticism towards what we are sold as facts on a daily basis. By doing so one may realize that in the end, knowledge of the workings of society only matters insofar we use it to avoid being manipulated into not aspring personal evolution.

[MetKiller Joe]

I have to agree with you here if I grasped what you intended to say.

In the end it doesn't matter if large concentrations of power are essentially corrupt and try their best to hide that where appropriate [governement], it may doesn't even matter if we're already well on our way to enslaving ourselves because its inherently derived from how we generally treat one another.

But since mass-media in conjuncion with peer pressure pretty much have us* thinking alike (even if our conflicting "opinions" tend to make us believe otherwise),

*the general populace but go ahead and continue...

I can see how searching for alternative means to interpret the hierarchies of power and their impact on the world enables one to reach a certain degree of scepticism towards what we are sold as facts on a daily basis.
So, because our values and perceptions are molded by people wanting us to conform to their standards (in other words "The Man", "Big Brother", etc), we tend to think of anything outside of this perception as evil, radical, and liberal.

It seems that are not understanding my point. You are creating a scapegoat out of the government for a situation of why people are stupid (which I would disagree with) and why this power needs to be removed (it may be abused, I'll give you that). Although, in my opinion, there is no such conceived conformity. If you want to express yourself while respecting the liberties and properties of other people, then do it, this is why it is called the US instead of the USSR.


By not questioning the "system", we, as individuals, do not mature and rebel as we should against injustice, and therefore society, will not mature with us.


But this statement/model makes the assumption that people (see *people) in general around us (us being intellectuals (see the red underline) who have reached an epiphany of understanding) are more ignorant than us and that we are the only ones who possess the will to become more than just grey particles in a great sea of grey particles. Your model gives the assumption that people are not motivated and that by us reaching this intellectual epiphany, getting more motivated, and therefore becoming more mature, we can lead them.

Your one assumption, therefore, is the fatal part of the model: people are not motivated.

This all, of course, is based upon my thinking that you still consider the government or a higher governing power to be a scapegoat. If this assumption is false, then this argument is nill. If it is, could you please explain yourself further?

[Phopojijo]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mXgt2pS8J-0/SJnUN0LDVLI/AAAAAAAAAL4/eqTL7UxF0a8/s1600-h/Mad+Obama.jpg

Because Shot Tags suck.

[paladin]

I liked the video.

[rossmum]

i came in expecting a parody of some harebrain theory

i saw one of my own friends preaching a harebrain theory

please dane, you're better than this

[Malloy]

This historian is an A-class salesman, scare mongering with certain facts which can easily be manipulated to be convincing to anyone willing to swallow up the possibilities just so they buy his books.

I really recommend reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/Dreams-My-Father-Story-Inheritance/dp/1400082773

shows exactly where Obama comes from and that he has his own agenda's and they do not include being manipulated by these 'puppet masters', these guys are the people with power/money and Obama knew this is the only way to get into house.
Hopefully with the people backing Obama he wont be so inclined to follow these manipulators and do something good for the people of America and co-incidently for the world.

[Dwood]

Hopefully with the people backing Obama he wont be so inclined to follow these manipulators and do something good for the people of America and co-incidently for the world.

Nah. I've already accepted something will go horribly wrong with one of Obama's decisions not helping the majority.

It's simply a matter of time.

[Malloy]

ha ha looks like we got a case of believers and non- believers... but as this world is 'this' world... things will turn for the worst and hopefully after a series of events i'll be looking out my window eyes melting from a seering mushroom cloud glare and slowly die counting my hair loss till the end of my days :D

[rossmum]

Nah. I've already accepted something will go horribly wrong with one of Obama's decisions not helping the majority.

It's simply a matter of time.
yeah but you're one of these zealots who probably actually believe that he's a terrorist, it wouldn't surprise me given the kind of shit you post