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Mr Buckshot
January 14th, 2009, 02:10 AM
So who else here is totally opposed to it? I am, and in my honest opinion anti-conscription measures should be implemented into international law and added to the UN Charter of rights.

It's been quite concerning how many high school graduates leave high school with promising futures, only to have their futures delayed for 2 years or so and potentially dampening their strengths during military service that they don't even want to do. I know that they aren't being sent into battle, but they're placed in rigorous training that isn't for the faint of heart and they're trained to handle guns and shit when they'll probably never touch them again in their lifetimes. And in the event of a war, they will be called back into service from whatever jobs they may currently hold, unless they are past a certain age.

In other words, conscription makes you exert yourself against your will, and it fucks around with your academic studies too as you're basically brain-dead for 2 years or more.

Every country needs a capable military to protect its people, but that military should comprise strictly volunteers and no one else.

As a third generation citizen of the former U.K. colony of Singapore (I now reside in Canada), I would originally have to go back after high school and be trained for two years before being allowed to go to university. If I defied the conscription and chose to stay in Canada, I wouldn't be in trouble but I would never be able to return to Singapore without being arrested. Fortunately, I was very lucky as I managed to acquire a mainland Chinese passport during a two-year-period I spent in Shanghai, and because of this I can skip the conscription bullshit and still travel back to Singapore as I please. When I was very young I felt no allegiance to China, after all my grandfather moved to Singapore permanently because he hated his life in China. But after getting my passport (HOW is another story) I've always felt grateful to China as it has helped me escape what I believe is a major violation of human rights.

Others, like my cousin's friend, weren't so lucky. He was studying in the U.S. as an international student, but because he wasn't a U.S. citizen yet and had no U.S. passport, he was forced to go to the two-year Singaporean conscription after graduation in June 2007. Recently, this friend died during the daily 2.4km run, most likely caused by the extreme tropical heat (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/211845,singapore-air-force-cadet-dies-after-jungle-training-in-brunei.html). His family was compensated by the government for his death, but money is not going to bring back their boy who was supposed to go to UC Berkeley and be successful. There have been numerous deaths previously, many attributed to the very hot climate on the Equator.

Other countries that practice conscription are Israel, Taiwan (yet it has strong diplomatic ties to America), Switzerland, and some other Asian country whose name I keep forgetting.

I'm sure there are some users here who support conscription saying that it can help you "be a man" (due all the very tough training) and also help to cut down on youth obesity. But what's the point of being manly if you end up dead, cheated out of a promising future by some stupid government law?

As far as I know, though, the UN is preoccupied with stopping the pre-teen conscription in Africa, so unfortunately it isn't likely that they'll start focusing on developed countries like Taiwan in terms of abolishing conscription.

itszutak
January 14th, 2009, 02:40 AM
I oppose it. If there were a war, and conscripted soldiers had to fight, morale would be low and desertion high. If the U.S. has a problem with desertion among soldiers who VOLUNTARILY JOIN, who's to say there won't be an even larger problem when people who may be sympathetic to the other side, may hate the idea of war, and may hate their country or at least not feel strong loyalty to it, have to fight?

It's a poorly-thought out idea. Looks great on paper (To politicians and generals) but runs into the problem of people.

SnaFuBAR
January 14th, 2009, 02:41 AM
IMO conscription leads to a one-sided mentality in a nation. African countries, Israel, Iraq, North Korea, all good examples. I don't see a non-conflict way for the UN to address the issue, though.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3900/unitednationsafricasa80gk4.jpg

L0d3x
January 14th, 2009, 03:33 AM
Well, my dad was always saying how good it was for your character etc.
I guess in a way I've grown to support that view, I believe it will bring discipline.
Personally, I find it a pitty they canceled the belgian conscription program years ago, for I would have liked to have that experience.

No need to flame me on my view, as it's purely personal, and I will not change it.

Jelly
January 14th, 2009, 04:42 AM
I think that once you finish education, you can either get a job or be automatically put in the army. Lets the promising ones continue with their lives and keeps the chavs off my streets.

rossmum
January 14th, 2009, 07:11 AM
National service within the country can be good. Conscription to a deployable force? No. Never.

Dwood
January 14th, 2009, 10:23 AM
I think that once you finish education, you can either get a job or be automatically put in the army. Lets the promising ones continue with their lives and keeps the chavs off my streets.

Almost agree. I say send criminals off to fight :D

It's not a human rights issue for anything other than age/gender.

Rob Oplawar
January 14th, 2009, 10:29 AM
I voted for the first option, but it's a bit more forceful than I would put it. I agree that it's bad, but I'm not frothing at the mouth about it. Will post more later.

rossmum
January 14th, 2009, 10:29 AM
Almost agree. I say send criminals off to fight :D

It's not a human rights issue for anything other than age/gender.

It's a humans rights issue when you tell someone to go do your bidding for little or no profit of their own (besides discipline and lifelong friends, which is all well and good in peacetime). Nobody should have to go into a warzone, and in any case you then have the issue of actual volunteers who have some experience having to baby-sit the cannon fodder.

Botolf
January 14th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Totally oppose it.

You say you want me to be forced into fighting in a bloody war and see horrific things while you stay here where it's relatively safe and make money with your entrepreneur buddies? Yea, I really feel like dying for the George Bushes and Dick Cheneys of the world.

Apoc4lypse
January 14th, 2009, 12:10 PM
meh conscription would be cool

Phopojijo
January 14th, 2009, 12:36 PM
Why would anyone willingly choose to support a law whose only purpose is to remove your personal choice?

I mean, the people who make the law don't care because it removes someone else's personal choice. I'm speaking of the common person though.

JunkfoodMan
January 14th, 2009, 01:33 PM
I'm totally against it. But unless Ireland suddenly builds a strong military force and begins to conscript civilians, I'm totally safe.

DaneO'Roo
January 14th, 2009, 02:02 PM
What happened to the old days when Kings and Queens rode out on the battlefield with their own men?

World leaders should fight each other in a fucking boxing ring instead of sending out armies. If that were to happen though, Putin and his ex kvg pwnage skills would totally dominate.

cheezdue
January 14th, 2009, 02:09 PM
I have no interest in the army whatsoever. I think it should ONLY be voluntarily.

ICEE
January 14th, 2009, 04:17 PM
What happened to the old days when Kings and Queens rode out on the battlefield with their own men?

World leaders should fight each other in a fucking boxing ring instead of sending out armies. If that were to happen though, Putin and his ex kvg pwnage skills would totally dominate.

I don't know man, You saw bush dodge that shoe like a pro. Thats some serious reflex. You never know what he might have up his sleeves. :p

In seriousness: No I don't want anyone to be conscripted, but if it came down to either draft or lose the war, I guess I would fight.

E: not voting because theres no "only in dire circumstance" option

Random
January 14th, 2009, 04:32 PM
Sorry for voting it is AWESOME

L0d3x
January 14th, 2009, 04:33 PM
I'm gonna elaborate my statement and say I only approve of this if they don't send their troops out into an actual war theatre. Here in belgium we hardly do any fighting, so I didn't really take that into consideration.

Dwood
January 14th, 2009, 04:45 PM
I'm gonna elaborate my statement and say I only approve of this if they don't send their troops out into an actual war theatre. Here in belgium we hardly do any fighting, so I didn't really take that into consideration.

What's the point of conscription then? To serve as janitor for your country's leaders?

L0d3x
January 14th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Well, here in belgium it was more of a stand-by thing.
But as we never really get into any fights, it just got canceled and we no longer have to serve.

Note that I was unaware that conscription == fighting for the army, the stories my father told me were purely about what he and his collegues had to do during their 2 years "service", and fighting was never a part of that. I probably asumed conscription was what my father described to me, and remember english is not my mother tongue.

Mr Buckshot
January 14th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Well, my dad was always saying how good it was for your character etc.
I guess in a way I've grown to support that view, I believe it will bring discipline.
Personally, I find it a pitty they canceled the belgian conscription program years ago, for I would have liked to have that experience.

No need to flame me on my view, as it's purely personal, and I will not change it.

Yeah it brings discipline and fitness, very good point, but there are other, albeit slower ways to gain those.

I know it's only military training - same thing in Singapore and Malaysia and Israel and Taiwan and so on. But in any army force, at least one recruit will die or suffer serious injury during basic training. I mean, there's all those strenous exercises, plus you're handling firearms, thus there's plenty of room for accidents. The risk is just too high for conscription to have a good cause.

And like I said, it disrupts any promising future a high school grad may have. Not worth it.

rossmum
January 14th, 2009, 11:32 PM
What happened to the old days when Kings and Queens rode out on the battlefield with their own men?

World leaders should fight each other in a fucking boxing ring instead of sending out armies. If that were to happen though, Putin and his ex kvg pwnage skills would totally dominate.
It's KGB. But yeah, that would be a better idea - too bad humans have strict social structures meaning it's not likely to happen again. Things have changed since the middle ages.


What's the point of conscription then? To serve as janitor for your country's leaders?
Well I'm sure it's not to ensure any invasion could be repelled by each and every individual, to teach survival skills, or to teach discipline to younger generations! http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-psyduck.gif