CMT, Tagspace, tagslots, script space, and version numbers.

[Masterz1337]

Since this is becoming a huge talk in the Pardon Our Dust thread, and I'd like that to be focused on the mod and updates and minor discussion, I thought I'd make this thread.

First, an overview of what all this crap is.

Tagspace

Tagspace is the amount of tags allowed to occupy memory in a map. A map can only have certain amount of data in it. It's easiest to think of this like a bathtub which you can't allow to overflow. The water represents the non bsp tags. This includes EVERYTHING that is not bsp, unless it is a SP map in which case bitmaps and sounds (and I suppose strings too) don't matter. Now picture the person getting in to the tub (the BSP). If the person is large, the water will be displaced and overflow. In SP maps, this can be solved by cutting that person or bsp in two, and then loading it. Less space occupied by the BSP or person, less water displaced, no overflow. Tool will not allow this water to overflow. There is a varient of tool Kornman has made called tool_pro. While it allows maps to compile regardless, with the exception of UI maps (I assume since the bitmaps don't actually matter despite normal tools warnings) they will exception when the bsp is loaded into the tub and overflows it. Tool_pro is usefull for SP maps builders, as they can compile and check their tag_dump.txt or view the unstable map in HEK+ or HTC to view for dubplicate data.

It's important to note, that the data can be refed any amount of times, long as that tag is being loaded, no matter how many times or by how many tags, long as it is loaded once it won't effect the game.

Good ways to combat this as we have done in CMT SPV2 is to
-Use color change for anything that is going to have multiple colors, to save on model space
-use low poly coli models (share them with as many things as you can, CMT has discussed a shared weapon coli model that will cut down on tagspace and tagslots)
-not use LODs for things you know will always be center screen (warthogs for example
-using tags that will use the same data
-use scripts to call on things that you don't want compiled in every map

Tagslots

This is a much trickier and more is actually a more serious problem. Tagslots is the amount of slots the game has allowed for tags, both in tool, sapien, and ingame. The only solution CMT uses for this is cutting content from specific levels, making units like jackas/grunts brutes/elites cyborg/marines flood forms human/elite use the same footstep sounds, and making tags rely on some of the same dependancies. In short, the only way to get around tagslots is less tags.

An early warning to a tagslots problem is shown by sapien, as sapien loads your whole globals tag into sapien, regardless if you're working on SP or MP or UI maps. CMT uses a cut down globals.globals that allows sapien acess to new tagslots, but it also stops us from running rad using the master tagset, which is mine. For those interested, I'm attaching my globals that I use.


Scriptspace

This is actually something we haven't run into a lot, other than in A10 due to the massive amounts of scripts used in the hanger cutscene, opening tutorial, and some of the drastic changes compared to easy/normal and hard/legendary.

I'm far from a scripting expert, but each time you open and close (script inhere that does such), it adds to the total you can have. Sapien gives you an error about a parsing error IIRC, I don't have the debug with it or any maps anymore to recreate the exact error

Version numbers

This is the hotly debated issue and Pardon Our Dust. There are 3 versions of Halo Ce. 1.04, which has about 800-900 players a night, but also includes a percentage of pirates using cracked versions. The 1.07 version was released on 2005 to stop people from halobooming servers (mainly GBX members taking down servers running leaked maps). 1.07 was the version released to replace 1.04 in 2005, and has many applications like Yellow which only work on the 1.07 version. 1.08 was introduced in 2008 to replace 1.07 which was the target of an updated haloboom. Open Sauce and IGM's MTV app are the two most important advantages that 1.08 has.

The current debate is should CMT use OS to bypass some of these errors, but at the expense of making it incompatible to all other versions, which while it may not matter to the people here, but it will end up reducing the amount of people who play SPV2, which is obviously a big issue to the team.

Using OS will mean that the player will have to have the maps AND the special .dll, and 1.08 to play, or they will exception out of the game. This is going to be a problem though our primary distributor, which is the Halomaps website. We don't know if Dennis will allow a DLL to be included with each map, as other maps that use OS in the future may crash when used with our DLL, and the maps may not even make it past the submission test, seeing as they will not work with all versions of the game, and will not work with the most recent version of the game without it installed. It also means you can say goodbye to bring the game over to a friends house or letting them try it, as 1.08 requires the game actually be installed. People running 1.04, who many are not pirates (jcap agrees about this too FYI), but who also legit players who only have it installed so they can play with a large number of people.

On a personal level with the team, we are putting the finishing touches on the mod. It's still going to take a while, but with the exception of boarding, (which we probably would have done just for fun in our free time if we weren't going to add it) we aren't going to be adding more than we already have. All that will really happen is you'll have more weapons crammed in a level, without a purpose and just because we can (ala spv1). Will it effect the mod that much? No, not really. Tagspace/slots is always an issue that rears it's ugly head, but it's not something that I feel will end up watering down the mod. The only mission that tagslots/space is giving us trouble with is b40, and there are still plenty of things that can be done to it that will allow us to have almost every extra thing we want and the map requires (tank, sparrowhawk). Using OS on the mod really won't make SPV2 really that any much better.

Now you can call me egotistical or whatever, but I am proud, and I speak for most of the team I think when I say this, of what we have accomplished within the bounds of the engine and game Bungie created way back in 2000/2001. I'm proud of what we've accomplished and what we've done with it, and to be honest, there's really nothing we feel we should or really need to add to it that isn't already there. Many people realize that this June 25h SPV1 will be 3 years old (and h2 coagulation 3 :-D), and frankly, even though the majority of what you see now was done in the mod in the past 12-18 months, we are ready to move on and try new things and be done with SPV2. Some of us want to leave CMT after this, some want to leave CE, and some want to stay. CMT will still be around after SPV2, and probably will remain a team up until the day the game finally dies, even if there is a whole new generation of members.

I do believe that hacks like OS are going to be the future of CE, and I don't have anything against using them or making 1.08 exclusive content in the future. And believe me when I say it, we have brainstormed ideas for post SP-v2 and some of those involve OS. For those of you who say that SPV2 will help bring people to 1.08 if released exclusively, it probably will bring some. By releasing for all versions and promoting that version 1.08 allows vehicle boarding will bring just as many (it's currently planned to be promoted when we release it, as well as built into the ui and/or load screens). If people do pirate to play SPV2, as I'm sure people will because it's single player and they don't have to worry about CD keys, SPV2 will just entrench them further into the game and community, and will likely make them upgrade and buy the game to play future content on 1.08.

I'm a firm believer in releasing SPV2 for all versions, and anyone with 1.08 to be able to have extra goodies like vehicle boarding. I do not believe, and do not want this to be locked to one version, especially after everything we've done to make this mod.

This thread was originally meant to be a debate when I began writing it, but it really is now about why I am going to make sure this is released for ALL versions of the game, not use OS unless it won't effect people who won't/can't/don't/will not use it. Feel free to share opinions, keep it civil even if you are passionate about your feelings (yes I'm looking at you jcap :p). but the truth of the matter is, I've already made my choice for the future of the mod.

[BobtheGreatII]

Wow, that was a lot of info, but it definitely gave me a better look in to what's having to be done for this mod. Love the bath tub comparison.

[Rook]

I'm really indifferent on this topic.. but if I had any input about it I would say release it only for 1.08 if it makes the mod better. If you own halo in a legit way then there is no excuse why you wouldn't be updated to the latest version.

Then you can turn around and say 1.04 has more players and it would attract more players for the mod. This is a dumb argument in my opinion because you're only protecting the piraters in that situation because again, if you own a legal CD key you can install & update Halo CE easily. Even without the disc.

Just my .02.

[n00b1n8R]

Cool story bro.

Now lets all focus on the much more important issue of no cheats.
wtfcmt D:

[itszutak]

I'll have to say, if it weren't for the potential of future problems with OS and other maps I'd be all for it. Right now, I'm not sure what side to go with.

E: Also what n00b said. Why aren't we allowed to use the console? :(

[Masterz1337]

The locking of dev is done because we don't really want people cheating through the whole thing. We've put alot of time and effort into refining things and testing and revising so that it is fair and the encounters are fun and ballanced. Also, due to alot of changes and tricks we use, the game is even more unstable using dev and it can really ruin a players progress or crash the game. We have a new UI guys from halomaps who is brilliant and really knows his stuff, so hopefully we can get the UI to unlock it for you if you've beat the whole thing on legendary and are warned of the effects when using it. If not we'll just password protect devmode, and give the password out to people that we feel like (not because we like them or just to have there be cool kids) but for people who have a reason for it. Later on like a month or two later we'll probably post the password for anyone who wants to use dev. It's more or less about stability and making sure the work we've done is played the way we want it played, at least for a while.

[n00b1n8R]

On legendary? :saddowns:
At any rate, I think the password is a good idea, just make it something easy to remember (maybe even hint to it in the UI or something), so I can come back in like 5 years when the community is dead and nostalgia all over my pants.

[AAA]

Thank you for the info, Masterz, on behalf of yourself and the team. I disagree however, why in hell it should matter wether or not people have different version of Halo CE. They should be welcoming the great updates the game's patches include, why should it ruin your decision what-so-ever as to whether or not you actually release this mod as one version or not?? People can easily go out, install the hotfix, and play your mod (including the rest of CMT). I'm sure the that fact would be running through their head more than changing the version of their game to something supposedly thought to be BETTER



All that will really happen is you'll have more weapons crammed in a level, without a purpose and just because we can (ala spv1). Will it effect the mod that much? No, not really.

The locking of dev is done because we don't really want people cheating through the whole thing. We've put alot of time and effort into refining things and testing and revising so that it is fair and the encounters are fun and ballanced.

so hopefully we can get the UI to unlock it for you if you've beat the whole thing on legendary and are warned of the effects when using it. If not we'll just password protect devmode, and give the password out to people that we feel like (not because we like them or just to have there be cool kids) but for people who have a reason for it. Later on like a month or two later we'll probably post the password for anyone who wants to use dev.


WHAT DA FUCK??

also...

WHAT... THE... FUCK??

Man, I've been looking forward to this mod for years just as much as anyone and now, due to all of these restrictions integrated to your mod, I'm not so sure I even want to play it anymore...

Seriously guys?...
...
...
... Seriously??

EDIT:

Please take no offense as I am simply turning in my perspective of this whole slated matter and would most probably not take any effect toward yours and the teams decision, as much as I would like it to.

I just hope you guys have fun and enjoy this as much as I probably would have.

[Masterz1337]

You were planning on devmoding your way through the whole things? :X

You're still going to have access to some dev commands via the UI, we were discussing it in the other thread.

[AAA]

You were planning on devmoding your way through the whole things? :X

I'm merely dissapointed to know that dev commands like that aren't at my disposal freely

[n00b1n8R]

Pretty old news tbh.

As long as they give a way to unlock it (perhaps release an app to change the variable when the time comes too?) I'll be happy.

[Reaper Man]

So, uh, what happened to the installer app suggestion that jcap and I came up with?

[Masterz1337]

Nothing happened, we're still going to do that as planned. From what I understood of it, you guys wanted us to do an exe of the mod, which would install the maps, 1.08, and MTV.

[Reaper Man]

Yeah, that's spot-on.

[ramis92]

I see 1 potential problem with using OS and 1.08 with SPv2. I don't know how probable this may be, but what if there is another security exploit or something and another update is released?

[FRain]

Re-package the installer and re-release?

[Kornman00]

As long as I' upgrading the maximum allowed tag memory I'll increase the max allowed tag instances too.

This kind of change would be made as an update to the OS code so people that develop OS extensions don't cause future conflicts. While I doubt there will ever be an update again, it will be easy enough to update the OS source (if it even needs to be) to reference any different addresses.

[Syuusuke]

When you say you locked dev...are you saying you disabled all the cheats and other "unholy" commands that could affect gameplay or did you really lock developer mode?

[jcap]

Basically the devmode scenario is this:

There's some things that can "break" the campaign, such as getting in a vehicle after you cheat_bump_possessioned'd a character. You will not be able to get back out, and if the game saves...

So it's kind of a measure to check that people won't break it and then bitch. To be honest, I think it's completely stupid, since by cheating in the first place you are taking the risk yourself. Furthermore, you can just use a stupid trainer that modifies the memory, or you can disable the script through console and cheat anyway.

Dumbass move.

[BobtheGreatII]

Basically the devmode scenario is this:

There's some things that can "break" the campaign, such as getting in a vehicle after you cheat_bump_possessioned'd a character. You will not be able to get back out, and if the game saves...

So it's kind of a measure to check that people won't break it and then bitch. To be honest, I think it's completely stupid, since by cheating in the first place you are taking the risk yourself. Furthermore, you can just use a stupid trainer that modifies the memory, or you can disable the script through console and cheat anyway.

Dumbass move.

Yeah... I kind of agree... why restrict it? I think there is more complaining taking it away than there would be if you had left it. Like he said, if they break it, it's their fault, no one elses. Should know better when they're glitching the game.

[Corndogman]

Well, I can't say I really agree with the limiting the use of dev mode. I mean, shouldn't it be the players prerogative if they want to cheat or not. I don't use devmode myself, but I think I should be able to. I'm not really a competitive player, I usually just play through the campaign on normal difficulty. If I feel like using some cheats to mess around after that, I feel I should be able to.

[n00b1n8R]

How big is this getting (as in disk space)?

[il Duce Primo]

Masterz told me earlier today that b40 couldn't compile because it was over 400mb. It's pretty damn big.

[BobtheGreatII]

Masterz told me earlier today that b40 couldn't compile because it was over 400mb. It's pretty damn big.

:mech3:I'm going to need a new external HDD.

[Ifafudafi]

Good thing I just bought that extra 250GB Hard Drive. :haw:

[t3h m00kz]

tbh I'm neutral on which version they use.

On one hand, if they use 1.08, they'll have more features, more tagspace, etc, and probably get a few more people buying a legit copy of the game.

On the other hand, if they use 1.00, they'll have a much bigger crowd of users, and more people interested in the mod. However, 1.00 never really has any custom maps playing, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

They've both got their positives, but ultimately this is up to CMT.

[jcap]

The 1.00 = more users argument is moot. It is complete bullshit. If someone wants to play it, they will not hesitate to play it on 1.08.

[Inferno]

When making a mod you want the largest possible audience to play it. THE LARGEST AUDIENCE IS NOT 1.08!

[jcap]

Again, that argument is BULLSHIT.

The people on 1.04 had to DOWNGRADE from 1.08 to begin with. There is nothing preventing them from putting back their original exe and playing how it is supposed to be. It's not even like they don't know about the update - THEY TAMPERED WITH THEIR INSTALLATION AND YOU ARE ENABLING THEM.

If they want to play it, they WILL go back. And if a flock of players move to 1.08, there will be no reason to stay on 1.04.

[t3h m00kz]

The 1.00 = more users argument is moot. It is complete bullshit. If someone wants to play it, they will not hesitate to play it on 1.08.

When you compare the amount of users on 1.00 to 1.08, 1.00 clearly has a larger userbase by hundreds. Saying it's moot that 1.00 has more users is just not true. However, I will say that 1.08 plays more custom maps than 1.00, which is really kind of sad when you think about it, so it's possible that 1.08 would have just as big if not a little less of an SPV2 crowd as 1.00. Hell, maybe even a bigger crowd.

[jcap]

Unless they upgrade the same way they downgraded,

or an installer does it for them.

See above post.

[t3h m00kz]

Okay okay, chill. They're packaging all the stuff together, including the updater.

I was just saying that personally it doesn't matter to me whichever way they decide to go with it, I'm neutral either way.

[FRain]

Again, that argument is BULLSHIT.


This argument SHOULD conclude the thread.

Apparently, it's not that way.

[AAA]

Again, that argument is BULLSHIT

I fucking LOVE you.

Can people not see this shit? Fucking throw it on 1.08 and it'll be over with. It's a fucking campaign. No one's going to be playing with other people on it so who fucking cares how many people play it??? It's should be a hands-fucking-down decision because who gives a fuck about people on 1.00?? They don't have a legit copy than too-fucking-bad.

Fin.



Note: Just expressing the obvious.

[Masterz1337]

Who says the majority of 1.04 players don't own a legit copy?

You can save your breath trying to change my mind. Even if Korn was to send me and updated OS with no restrictions right now I wouldn't use it.

I'm sticking by my post.

[jcap]

Oh that's fine.

Then I'll just spend the rest of the thread and the other one exposing you as the ignorant idiot you are.

[il Duce Primo]

If we didn't care who plays it then we wouldn't even release it. I personaly am interested in appealing to the biggest audience.
Jcap, you are BULLSHIT

[jcap]

Jesus fucking Christ, you're dumb. Do you even read my posts or think about them for a second? Because if you did, you would have already realized in the past 4 or 5 times I've stated it that you aren't losing anyone. And if by chance you do lose someone, they don't deserve to play it anyway because they are a waste of a human being.

[il Duce Primo]

Lots of players use cracked versions of CE so they can't simply upgrade...

[jcap]

How did they downgrade?

And yes they can. It's called running the installer that is packaged.

If people are too lazy to run an installer, then they MUST be too lazy to use vehicle boarding too if it requires an external app. GOD FORBID THEY HAVE TO EXECUTE A FILE OH NO~!

[il Duce Primo]

They just never upgraded. There are UI hacks that skip over the check for the update.

[Masterz1337]

IIRC when using a cracked version it skips checking for updates, even though the UI still shows it checking. They wouldn't even know there was an update. I only upgraded to 1.08 when MTV came out, and I never got a message telling me to update on the rare occasion I went to play MP.

Also, there's the whole vista thing that prevents many from upgrading too.

[jcap]

No, they did. You have to upgrade otherwise the game will detect it is out of date.

You need to run the update, then copy over the cracked 1.0(4) exe. For some reason, Halo's update check is back-asswards so not all files can be up-to-date and it will still pass the "checking for updates" screen.

[Masterz1337]

How did they downgrade?

And yes they can. It's called running the installer that is packaged.

If people are too lazy to run an installer, then they MUST be too lazy to use vehicle boarding too if it requires an external app. GOD FORBID THEY HAVE TO EXECUTE A FILE OH NO~!

The people that don't run an installer can't use an external app for MTV.

[Timo]

They just never upgraded. There are UI hacks that skip over the check for the update.

oh god, what have i done :smith:

[Masterz1337]

I also just loaded up 1.04, no notification about an update.

[AAA]

I also just loaded up 1.04, no notification about an update.

Are you using the original or Custom UI that checks for updates?

[Masterz1337]

Custom, but it still checks.

[AAA]

IIRC when using a cracked version it skips checking for updates, even though the UI still shows it checking.

Could be your issue on the "doesn't show new updates" matter because the Custom UI could easily do the same thing...

[itszutak]

I think the best idea is to have the installer auto-update Halo. Put a warning beforehand that states that it will make cracked copies not work.

[paladin]

Didnt the H2CE team have an app that downloaded their maps and checked for new ones? MB something like that. I still liket eh installer idea.

[Rook]

GET 1.08 FFS

(thread locked)

[jcap]

READ:
Everyone is wrong about the update. :|


Ok, here's my findings from the little experiment I just ran:

There is absolutely no one on 1.0(4) who can say they never knew of an update. The fact is that they DID update their game before copying over the crack.

What gives you a list of servers and checks for your version is haloce.exe. When the game checks for an update, it will check a VALUE IN THE REGISTRY which is updated by haloupdate.exe with every update applied and it will relay to the UI whether the game is up-to-date or not. The UI is irrelevant in this (because I doubt many in 1.0(4) even know they can replace their UI).

If the version number matches what Gearbox says is the latest, then it will pass you through. If the value is anything less, REGARDLESS of what version haloce.exe you are using, the game will tell you to update.

To sum up what I did:
When I use an older exe and 1.08 in the registry, it doesn't tell me to update.
When I use an older exe and 1.00 in the registry, it tells me to update.
Finally, when I use an updated exe and 1.00 in the registry, it tells me to update.

What people do is they update their game and then copy in the crack. It's their fault, and there is absolutely no excuse.

[Heathen]

On legendary? :saddowns:
At any rate, I think the password is a good idea, just make it something easy to remember (maybe even hint to it in the UI or something), so I can come back in like 5 years when the community is dead and nostalgia all over my pants.

Not to get off topic, but do you think its going to really take that long for it to die?

I say keep the password idea, maybe have the password show somehow at the end of legendary mode or something idk.

And I say only release it for the new version.

[ThePlague]

Not to get off topic, but do you think its going to really take that long for it to die?

I say keep the password idea, maybe have the password show somehow at the end of legendary mode or something idk.

And I say only release it for the new version.
This. Maybe throw some credits or something in it, then slap on the password, tell people to look for it at the end, and there you go, you get console.

[AAA]

This. Maybe throw some credits or something in it, then slap on the password, tell people to look for it at the end, and there you go, you get console.

lol. People could easily press the Credits button on the UI and find it there.

....Wait... Is that right?

[Kornman00]

\Even if Korn was to send me and updated OS with no restrictions right now I wouldn't use it.
Then I see no reason fixing tool\haloce anytime soon

[Choking Victim]

Then I see no reason fixing tool\haloce anytime soon

Zteam has been looking into it, there's no reason to ruin everyone elses chance at getting something entirely useful because someone was too ignorant and full of pride to accept such an offer. Would you be interested in helping us? We've already bypassed the errors in tool.

[sevlag]

lol. People could easily press the Credits button on the UI and find it there.

....Wait... Is that right?
simple way: the legendary ending (if you kept it) put a decal or something on the ground by johnson and the elite that says the password...

only downer is I love to take screen shots, so not being able to detach camera from the get go to pan around (notice i said detach, nothing about that teleporting bullshit)

anyways still looking foward to it and I'm all for having a 1.08 only feature for SPv2, its like F2P versus P2P, P2P players will have something the F2P people won't so they F2P people will go "soz, I has to spend liek 10 dollurs to get dis?"

and hopefully the response will be "derp...okies, another wise investment dur hur"

[hry]

I'm really indifferent on this topic.. but if I had any input about it I would say release it only for 1.08 if it makes the mod better. If you own halo in a legit way then there is no excuse why you wouldn't be updated to the latest version.

Then you can turn around and say 1.04 has more players and it would attract more players for the mod. This is a dumb argument in my opinion because you're only protecting the piraters in that situation because again, if you own a legal CD key you can install & update Halo CE easily. Even without the disc.




This.

Totally agree.

[Masterz1337]

READ:
Everyone is wrong about the update. :|


Ok, here's my findings from the little experiment I just ran:

There is absolutely no one on 1.0(4) who can say they never knew of an update. The fact is that they DID update their game before copying over the crack.

What gives you a list of servers and checks for your version is haloce.exe. When the game checks for an update, it will check a VALUE IN THE REGISTRY which is updated by haloupdate.exe with every update applied and it will relay to the UI whether the game is up-to-date or not. The UI is irrelevant in this (because I doubt many in 1.0(4) even know they can replace their UI).

If the version number matches what Gearbox says is the latest, then it will pass you through. If the value is anything less, REGARDLESS of what version haloce.exe you are using, the game will tell you to update.

To sum up what I did:
When I use an older exe and 1.08 in the registry, it doesn't tell me to update.
When I use an older exe and 1.00 in the registry, it tells me to update.
Finally, when I use an updated exe and 1.00 in the registry, it tells me to update.

What people do is they update their game and then copy in the crack. It's their fault, and there is absolutely no excuse.
Did a check on my laptop after reading this, turns out it did have 1.08 installed, even though I don't recall playing it since I built my desktop. Your post is correct, there's no reason to debate that aspect of it anymore.


Then I see no reason fixing tool\haloce anytime soon

TBH, the only people that need it to be "fixed" are rob and Zteam, and they both would put it to better use than us. I'm real tired of people expecting us to do everything we can or holding us accountable for "Saving" the game or "improving" it. It's really not that far off from the kids who claim we're starving the community by not releasing our tags, except people here actually want us to put in extra work so they can play a version of the game that frankly, they are the majority playing. I don't have a problem doing small things like advertising the installer idea or giving 1.08 boarding, we are helping, even if some people on the team don't give 2 shits about what version people are playing.

If people want to start getting players to 1.08, maybe the first step to take, would be to get that damned Delta Halo ui out, and let all those people out there who use a custom ui that doesn't check for updates upgrade to delta and then upgrade to 1.08. Sounds to me like that's a start. Take some responsibility and show some initiative (not singling out delta ui team here) and if you think this is such a huge issue with people not playing 1.08, DO something about it and contribute to the solution, and stop trying to make us solve your problems.


Zteam has been looking into it, there's no reason to ruin everyone elses chance at getting something entirely useful because someone was too ignorant and full of pride to accept such an offer. Would you be interested in helping us? We've already bypassed the errors in tool.
Glad I know I'm ignorant for not wanting to use OS on a project that is in it's finishing stages that no one wants to work on anymore. If we did use it, people would complain we weren't taking advantage of it when all we would do is release the mod as it is now.

[Choking Victim]

TBH, the only people that need it to be "fixed" are rob and Zteam.
No, the entire community can benefit. Don't ruin it for everyone else because you choose not to use it.

[Masterz1337]

How many people other than kiddies who rip and try to stuff everything in a box map get tags space/slot errors?

Not to shift the blame to Kornman, but why should it be our fault for stunting the community's growth when it's him who said he won't do unless we do it. You want us to make a sacrifice and get upset when we don't want to, but you don't have a problem with Kornman saying he won't sacrifice his time to make it when supposedly everyone can benefit. The reason you don't is because he works with Zteam, unlike us.

[L0d3x]

I can't believe what I'm reading here, it's like you're blackmailing us.
Lame.

[BobtheGreatII]

I can't believe what I'm reading here, it's like you're blackmailing us.
Lame.

Woa wait... what?

[L0d3x]

Eh I hope I didn't use the wrong word there, I'm just a (cool) european. What I mean is that, "if cmt doesn't use this, nobody will", is lame.

[Masterz1337]

What Lodex means is that the current situation is that people are upset that we are going to stunt the growth of the community because Kornman won't release an updated OS that will expand the game's memory limits, unless CMT uses it in SPV2. Which is clearly we don't want to do.

[jcap]

Not to shift the blame to Kornman, but why should it be our fault for stunting the community's growth when it's him who said he won't do unless we do it. You want us to make a sacrifice and get upset when we don't want to, but you don't have a problem with Kornman saying he won't sacrifice his time to make it when supposedly everyone can benefit. The reason you don't is because he works with Zteam, unlike us.It has nothing to do with Zteam. I never even gave that a consideration. His work would benefit you more than anyone else, which is why you're retarded for not taking the opportunity. Maybe he will still release something, but it wouldn't be as effective as if it was released with your mod. It would be about as widespread as the Yelo release was. Not many outside of this forum had knowledge of it. If that was a super-significant update that people started taking advantage of to make maps (like hijacking), then not many would know of it.


Glad I know I'm ignorant for not wanting to use OS on a project that is in it's finishing stages that no one wants to work on anymore. If we did use it, people would complain we weren't taking advantage of it when all we would do is release the mod as it is now.It's not like it would actually break anything; it would only help. As from what I know, it's still in development and it's not even close to too late to change what you just implemented. Hell, it would even take some stress off of trying to cram everything in to make sure it all fits in the limits.


If people want to start getting players to 1.08, maybe the first step to take, would be to get that damned Delta Halo ui out, and let all those people out there who use a custom ui that doesn't check for updates upgrade to delta and then upgrade to 1.08. Sounds to me like that's a start.
So many problems with this idiotic argument. First, it would have absolutely no influence on 1.04 players. Second, it doesn't check for updates automatically (that's in the settings menu, and as we know from my research which you confirmed, they upgrade before downgrading because they are douchebags). Third, it doesn't take advantage of OS because there is simply no reason to. Hell, maybe I'll make it 1.08 only for shits and giggles to piss you and them off. I don't care if it doesn't reach the faggots of 1.04; they don't count.

...Or you can release SPv2 for 1.08. Sounds to me like that's an even better start.

[teh lag]

You can save your breath trying to change my mind. Even if Korn was to send me and updated OS with no restrictions right now I wouldn't use it.

I'm sticking by my post.

You're being too stubborn. I think we could benefit a lot more than you're making it out to be from lifted limits on tagspace, slots, scripts, and all that. As much as we've added, we've also had to cut an assload of things because of them; no they're not NECESSARY, but they're the little things that are nice to have. Stuff like...

-The A10 Hangar cutscene.
-The Maw Legendary cutscene.
-Vehicle damage debris.
-Marine corpses/allies in C40.
-Scorpion in B40 (just the other day we were talking about how to cut down its size to fit it in).
-Fancy boarding anims.
-Weapons in all the levels; I don't believe that you can honestly say it wouldn't be nice to not have to worry about cutting weapons out so the map will work.

More times than I can count you and I have talked about ways to shave a few more tags or a little more space off of... just about every level. I don't like making those cuts and I'm sure you don't either. I just don't see wider distribution and ease of access as a good enough reason to pass up not having to deal with this.

Not to mention all the tag finessing I've had to do on our last few additions (for example, the wraiths using a single coll and anim tag) so we won't have to worry about these problems happening to them. Our tagset will only grow from now until release and we're going to have to cut out more and more stuff to get it to fit in. Not to mention that mapsize is getting to be its own problem. It's going to get worse as we finish our content and the "extra" stuff like skins for previously untextured things get added in.

I'd rather leave people in the dark (which isn't even permanent, given that all they need to do is update the game and place a .dll in their folder) than lower the quality of our mod for something that can be worked around.

[Choking Victim]

How many people other than kiddies who rip and try to stuff everything in a box map get tags space/slot errors?

Not to shift the blame to Kornman, but why should it be our fault for stunting the community's growth when it's him who said he won't do unless we do it. You want us to make a sacrifice and get upset when we don't want to, but you don't have a problem with Kornman saying he won't sacrifice his time to make it when supposedly everyone can benefit. The reason you don't is because he works with Zteam, unlike us.
What sacrifice are you making? He offered to make the update, and said it would be fairly simple to do so. Are you aware of the concept of giving? The reason I'm not upset with kornman is because he's provided a framework for us to use, I don't expect anything more after that. The reason I'm upset with you is because you declined a perfectly relevant and usable offer to bypass something that has plagued you since the start of the mod. This has nothing to do with our team's members.

[Masterz1337]

It has nothing to do with Zteam. I never even gave that a consideration. His work would benefit you more than anyone else, which is why you're retarded for not taking the opportunity. Maybe he will still release something, but it wouldn't be as effective as if it was released with your mod. It would be about as widespread as the Yelo release was. Not many outside of this forum had knowledge of it. If that was a super-significant update that people started taking advantage of to make maps (like hijacking), then not many would know of it.So if it's not this mod we make OS dependable, maybe it will actually be MP maps, which in turn would be an even bigger success due to the widespread amount of people who played SPV2 on 1.04 and then will HAVE to play 1.08 if they want MPV3. Even if we made SPV2 use OS, you don't even know if people will start playing 1.08. You admitted that you think the majority of 1.04 players who turned their back on 1.08. They have no reason to play 1.08 when not playing the single player maps then, unless other people take advantage and want to make their maps OS dependable. And seeing as how people here think the only "quality" maps come out of here, and nothing ever does get released here, they have no reason to play

It's not like it would actually break anything; it would only help. As from what I know, it's still in development and it's not even close to too late to change what you just implemented. Hell, it would even take some stress off of trying to cram everything in to make sure it all fits in the limits.No, it wouldn't break anything, but these boundries have been important in actually allowing us to get this project done. If not, we'd just be adding more and have to consider every little idea we are suggested.


So many problems with this idiotic argument. First, it would have absolutely no influence on 1.04 players. Second, it doesn't check for updates automatically (that's in the settings menu, and as we know from my research which you confirmed, they upgrade before downgrading because they are douchebags). Third, it doesn't take advantage of OS because there is simply no reason to. Hell, maybe I'll make it 1.08 only for shits and giggles to piss you and them off. I don't care if it doesn't reach the faggots of 1.04; they don't count. .

...Or you can release SPv2 for 1.08. Sounds to me like that's an even better start.
I think you misunderstand what I'm getting at, there are plenty of people who play haloce on older versions, but haven't updated. The cause? UI maps that don't check for updates, and many of those people are probably unaware of a newer version. If they download delta, which DOES check for updates, you can get a bunch of people to come to 1.08 that way




Response in bold.

[BobtheGreatII]

I think you misunderstand what I'm getting at, there are plenty of people who play haloce on older versions, but haven't updated. The cause? UI maps that don't check for updates, and many of those people are probably unaware of a newer version. If they download delta, which DOES check for updates, you can get a bunch of people to come to 1.08 that way

This, do this.

It would even shut up a lot of people. ;)

[Choking Victim]

Response in bold.
Have you even checked with the other team members before shooting korn's offer down? If teh_lag disagrees (one of the cornerstone members of CMT) then what does everyone else think?

[Masterz1337]

You're being too stubborn. I think we could benefit a lot more than you're making it out to be from lifted limits on tagspace, slots, scripts, and all that. As much as we've added, we've also had to cut an assload of things because of them; no they're not NECESSARY, but they're the little things that are nice to have. Stuff like...

-The A10 Hangar cutscene.
-The Maw Legendary cutscene.
-Vehicle damage debris.
-Marine corpses/allies in C40.
-Scorpion in B40 (just the other day we were talking about how to cut down its size to fit it in).
-Fancy boarding anims.
-Weapons in all the levels; I don't believe that you can honestly say it wouldn't be nice to not have to worry about cutting weapons out so the map will work.

More times than I can count you and I have talked about ways to shave a few more tags or a little more space off of... just about every level. I don't like making those cuts and I'm sure you don't either. I just don't see wider distribution and ease of access as a good enough reason to pass up not having to deal with this.

Not to mention all the tag finessing I've had to do on our last few additions (for example, the wraiths using a single coll and anim tag) so we won't have to worry about these problems happening to them. Our tagset will only grow from now until release and we're going to have to cut out more and more stuff to get it to fit in. Not to mention that mapsize is getting to be its own problem. It's going to get worse as we finish our content and the "extra" stuff like skins for previously untextured things get added in.

I'd rather leave people in the dark (which isn't even permanent, given that all they need to do is update the game and place a .dll in their folder) than lower the quality of our mod for something that can be worked around.

Most of those little things are things we can't put back regardless, such as the hanger bay cutscene. The legendary cutscene we could put back, but it's pointless and the other games have retconned. The vehicle debris is hardly something anyone misses, and if we were to add it back in with no limits we might as well make all new banged up pieces of debris. For C40, we don't even have room anywhere to add marine help (by room I mean areas of BSP that would be good for those fights, although I suppose we could just keep adding more and more bsps.) The scorpion, hog, and sparrow, I got all into b40, even though now it's really packed to the lid, there's nothing else we need to add. We can easily do more fancy baording moves, we already discussed removing the passenger seat anims for the cyborg, since there's no co-op, and marines won't stay on the side of the tanks (which never made sense anyway, who sits on a metal monster that's going to be having everything shot on it) and we can simply remove those marine anims. It would be nice to not worry about having to cut weapons, but that's hardly an issue. If it weren't for having the limitations, we wouldn't have the introduction of weapons and vehicles planned out like we do now, compared to spv1 and how it was before when we just smothered the player with every little thing we could.

I don't find the cutting and tag shaving to be hurting the mod at all, I actually find half the fun in working on it finding ways around these challenges. You know as well as I that the only reason this project is finally coming to a close is because of these limits, and if we did use OS, would we ever be able to say that we're happy with the mod and that there's nothing we can do to make it better? One thing we've always done well is found a way to make the next thing we add better than the last, and with unlimited space, we both know that we're never going to stop. We're all ready to move onto the next thing, but that's never going to happen if we use OS.

[Hunter]

Wont korn making an OS mod be an advantage to the entire community? If everyone gets the OS update, I am sure the word will be spreaded around, and knowning kids they will be like. "omg godz, i want 2 kik sum1 of bansheez, n nukes!" Which OS would help?

So anyone who mods Halo:CE could use the new OS features?

[Timo]

Wait, so we can't have marines with rocket launchers on the sides of our tanks anymore? :smith:

[ICEE]

Though I admittedly didnt read all of the longposts in the last few pages, it seems to me that theres a few bolts missing in some of the viewpoints here.


Is this tag space / tag slot expansion really possible and reliable?
What problems could this expansion theoretically cause?
How long will the testing and refining of the expansion take? Isn't CMT sort of on a time budget here? I thought that they had established a deadline before they were done working on this project due to the fact that they're tired of working on it.
These factors should all effect the out come of the decision. However I don't see why anyone should care about whether or not they update the game.

[Masterz1337]

What sacrifice are you making? He offered to make the update, and said it would be fairly simple to do so. Are you aware of the concept of giving? The reason I'm not upset with kornman is because he's provided a framework for us to use, I don't expect anything more after that. The reason I'm upset with you is because you declined a perfectly relevant and usable offer to bypass something that has plagued you since the start of the mod. This has nothing to do with our team's members.


Have you even checked with the other team members before shooting korn's offer down? If teh_lag disagrees (one of the cornerstone members of CMT) then what does everyone else think?

What sacrifice are we making? It's the fact that we want to be DONE with the project, and all you guys want is for us to prolong it and keep working on it using OS so you can all have fun on 1.08.

So you're upset with me because I don't want to make my job easier on something I don't even consider that much of a problem, yet earlier you complained that Kornman should use his knowledge to update OS so other people could use it for their projects. He offered to make the update as long as we met his DEMAND that we make it exclusively for 1.08. If it's so simple then why he going to only release it if we do spv2 exclusively for 1.08. If we want to use it, everyone gets it, if we don't want to use it no one gets it. Does that sound right to you? That people should be punished by our actions?

I don't consider the game restrictions to be something we've struggled with, if anything it has made our project more fun and better (performance wise too).

[Kornman00]

I can't believe what I'm reading here, it's like you're blackmailing us.
Lame.
If CMT were to use it I would have motivation for actively developing the subsystem for OS. However, Masters said he wouldn't even if I did so I have no real motivation to develop it anytime soon. Sure other people can benefit from such a system, but they can benefit from being paid to develop mods too, just as I could benefit from being paid to do the things I do in my free time.

EDIT: not to give Masters more reasons not to, but this of course not make the mod transferable to the xbox (unless ran under a devkit). But then again, I doubt the xbox would be able to run this mod as-is ;x

[Masterz1337]

Wont korn making an OS mod be an advantage to the entire community? If everyone gets the OS update, I am sure the word will be spreaded around, and knowning kids they will be like. "omg godz, i want 2 kik sum1 of bansheez, n nukes!" Which OS would help?

So anyone who mods Halo:CE could use the new OS features?

He's only making the OS update if we promise to use it on SPV2.

[Masterz1337]

Wait, so we can't have marines with rocket launchers on the sides of our tanks anymore? :smith:

You couldn't anyway in H1, and you can't have marines on the side of the scorpions now because the marines get on and jump off after each encounter. And when they jump off while your driving they get splattered.

[Choking Victim]

What sacrifice are we making? It's the fact that we want to be DONE with the project, and all you guys want is for us to prolong it and keep working on it using OS so you can all have fun on 1.08.

So you're upset with me because I don't want to make my job easier on something I don't even consider that much of a problem, yet earlier you complained that Kornman should use his knowledge to update OS so other people could use it for their projects. He offered to make the update as long as we met his DEMAND that we make it exclusively for 1.08. If it's so simple then why he going to only release it if we do spv2 exclusively for 1.08. If we want to use it, everyone gets it, if we don't want to use it no one gets it. Does that sound right to you? That people should be punished by our actions?

I don't consider the game restrictions to be something we've struggled with, if anything it has made our project more fun and better (performance wise too).
Thanks for avoiding my question about the other team member's on your "team". If that's what you consider it at this point, when your the only one calling the shots and seemingly alienating the other members. So you like having to do more work to conform to halo's memory limits? The cheese stands alone my friend.

[il Duce Primo]

If CMT were to use it I would have motivation for actively developing the subsystem for OS. However, Masters said he wouldn't even if I did so I have no real motivation to develop it anytime soon. Sure other people can benefit from such a system, but they can benefit from being paid to develop mods too, just as I could benefit from being paid to do the things I do in my free time.
I'm doing MPv3. I know there are team members who are interested in working on another MP map set and some who are tired of CE. Could you develope it OS so it could be used for MPv3? That should make the playerbase on 1.08 larger and everyone here should be happy and stop bitching.

[Masterz1337]

Though I admittedly didnt read all of the longposts in the last few pages, it seems to me that theres a few bolts missing in some of the viewpoints here.


Is this tag space / tag slot expansion really possible and reliable?
What problems could this expansion theoretically cause?
How long will the testing and refining of the expansion take? Isn't CMT sort of on a time budget here? I thought that they had established a deadline before they were done working on this project due to the fact that they're tired of working on it.
These factors should all effect the out come of the decision. However I don't see why anyone should care about whether or not they update the game.

1. Yes it is plausible, but no one knows how reliable it will be till it's done. When you start messing with this stuff you never can tell if it will work as planned or if it will interfere with something else.

2. Well for one, computers that fit the minimum requirements for halo pc may not be able to run it, as I assume the limits are there for a reason. The majority here have nice shiny PCs, that's not the case for everyone else. SPV2 would only be able to run on 1.08 with OS, so anyone that wishes to use yelo or can't upgrade due to complications with vista would be left out.

3. No limits= no real way for us to actually decide when to stop working, the limits are the only reason we've stopped adding content and focused on finishing and polishing, which many of us are tired of. What's happened before is that we reach a point where we are tired of working, and no one wants to actually have to go down and do all the polishing and gritty work when they're burned out. That's how we end up getting to those 4 month long breaks where nothing gets done.

[Masterz1337]

Thanks for avoiding my question about the other team member's on your "team". If that's what you consider it at this point, when your the only one calling the shots and seemingly alienating the other members. So you like having to do more work to conform to halo's memory limits? The cheese stands alone my friend.
I meant to comment on it, but I forgot. I didn't quote it for no reason. I do consult the team. For SPV2, the majority don't care about using OS. We're really happy with the way the mod is right now. I assumed Lag was now on board with my OP since he +repped it, either I was wrong or he's had a change of heart.

[jcap]

I don't find the cutting and tag shaving to be hurting the mod at all, I actually find half the fun in working on it finding ways around these challenges. You know as well as I that the only reason this project is finally coming to a close is because of these limits, and if we did use OS, would we ever be able to say that we're happy with the mod and that there's nothing we can do to make it better? One thing we've always done well is found a way to make the next thing we add better than the last, and with unlimited space, we both know that we're never going to stop. We're all ready to move onto the next thing, but that's never going to happen if we use OS.
Wow. Give me a second for the stupid to set in...

OK...................done.

So you find fun in giving things the axe which you could otherwise have? You like restricting yourself and having to limit your options because of your ignorance? Maybe you could have just put more effort into integrating OS instead of chopping everything out.

With the current course the mod is on, at release it is not even going to be close to "finished." Your definition of "finished" is when you hit the game's limit, not when it is complete. There is FAR much more you can do to make it better, such as integrating OpenSauce so you don't have to strip shit from the mod.

If you have unlimited space you'll just keep adding stuff? Really? If you're saying that you don't have the self control to call it quits and finalize something, you're ridiculous. And you should be considering everything - that's what makes it the best it can be. Unless you can come up with a rock solid, undisputed reason to not include something completely plausible, you should make every effort to include that in the release build within the development period.

[Hunter]

He's only making the OS update if we promise to use it on SPV2.

:(

And I think Jcap really wants the OS update so he can kick some as in style because he doesnt sound happy :p

[teh lag]

What sacrifice are we making? It's the fact that we want to be DONE with the project, and all you guys want is for us to prolong it and keep working on it using OS so you can all have fun on 1.08.

You and I both know we're not exactly done with this. It's not like we've finished everything and we're being hounded on all sides by the terrible, selfish 1.08 players to do more work when we shouldn't have to - we'd be working for at LEAST 3-4 more months on this even without OS. All OS will do for us is give us more wiggle room which, despite your sudden change of attitude on the subject over the past few days, we sorely need.

I want to be done as much as you - hell, I've been the one making to-do lists and trying to set internal deadlines for stuff. I feel that we would spend more time working to cram in everything now (and make further cramming as our remaining content is finished) than we would if we could do anything we wanted. You have too little faith in our team's self-control if you think that lifting these restrictions would lead to an endless dev-cycle.

Forget about "them" having fun on 1.08. What about not having to worry if the latest update to a biped or vehicle or anything will break the tagset or not? I've still got the source files for a bunch of stuff that we've cut out and I think we could use again (and yes, I do miss the vehicle pieces and have the source files for them sitting in a folder on my PC), so it's not like we'd be working our asses off to restore it anyway. I don't understand why the A10 cutscene is permanently kaput, but I'll doubt that it;d take more than a day or two to reintegrate.


I don't consider the game restrictions to be something we've struggled with, if anything it has made our project more fun and better (performance wise too).

We have struggled with them and you know it. It's true that it may have spurred some more creative solutions to our problems, but now we've learned all that stuff and we can afford to have those restrictions lifted. If anything, they're holding us back now. We could have LODs for a bunch of stuff like our flood bipeds and some of the vehicles (which, given how fast I did the Brute and Elite ones, wouldn't take long once I get in the groove like I just did for the board anims), but you yourself said in the OP that not having LODs is an easy way to cut down on tagspace.


1. Yes it is plausible, but no one knows how reliable it will be till it's done. When you start messing with this stuff you never can tell if it will work as planned or if it will interfere with something else.

Well, we wouldn't even be using it until it's done, so if it didn't work we wouldn't have wasted any time on it anyway. If it doesn't work I won't have a problem - we'll have no commitment and we can go about things as normal.


2. Well for one, computers that fit the minimum requirements for halo pc may not be able to run it, as I assume the limits are there for a reason. The majority here have nice shiny PCs, that's not the case for everyone else. SPV2 would only be able to run on 1.08 with OS, so anyone that wishes to use yelo or can't upgrade due to complications with vista would be left out.

Again with the playerbase? So what if fewer people can play it? If they don't read the readme (in which we could easily stick a new set of minimum requirements) it's their own fault.



We're really happy with the way the mod is right now. I assumed Lag was now on board with my OP since he +repped it, either I was wrong or he's had a change of heart.

I'm not happy with it. I'm not happy that every time we add something in (it even happened with the boarding) we have to spend a day getting it all to hold together. I'm not happy with all of the aforementioned "little things" having to be removed for something that's now preventable. I'm not happy with the prospect of removing iconic parts of Halo like the marines on tanks or the A10 custscene. I'm not happy with having to choose what content gets cut from a level because we've run out of space for it. I repped you for explaining the nature of our problems, not your position. I was sitting on the sidelines until now, but I won't stand by and let this slip out of our hands.

As I said above, I'm willing to accept the state of our mod if there's nothing we can do about it, but not when someone has offered us a solution on the only condition that we use it if it works.

[jcap]

or can't upgrade due to complications with vista would be left out.
This is irrelevant as well. They just need administrative privileges to upgrade. Chances are they are not even using a custom UI and they upgraded the game before downgrading. I really doubt many on 1.04 even use a custom UI.

And if that's a problem, then include the updater in the release and a note in the readme. It's so simple it's pathetic.

[il Duce Primo]

Wow. Give me a second for the stupid to set in...

OK...................done.

So you find fun in giving things the axe which you could otherwise have? You like restricting yourself and having to limit your options because of your ignorance? Maybe you could have just put more effort into integrating OS instead of chopping everything out.

With the current course the mod is on, at release it is not even going to be close to "finished." Your definition of "finished" is when you hit the game's limit, not when it is complete. There is FAR much more you can do to make it better, such as integrating OpenSauce so you don't have to strip shit from the mod.

If you have unlimited space you'll just keep adding stuff? Really? If you're saying that you don't have the self control to call it quits and finalize something, you're ridiculous. And you should be considering everything - that's what makes it the best it can be. Unless you can come up with a rock solid, undisputed reason to not include something completely plausible, you should make every effort to include that in the release build within the development period.
People who play halo illegally would not be able to enjoy our mod. One of the main driving force that pushes me into working is that I know there will be tons of people who will enjoy what I'm doing. By restricting SPv2 to only 1.08 will drastically reduce the amount of people that will play it. I could care less if they pirated it because they aren't hurting me in anyway. If anything they push me closer to finishing and plain out working. It is selfish but I don't give a damn because that's what makes me human.

[Masterz1337]

Wow. Give me a second for the stupid to set in...

OK...................done.

So you find fun in giving things the axe which you could otherwise have? You like restricting yourself and having to limit your options because of your ignorance? Maybe you could have just put more effort into integrating OS instead of chopping everything out.

With the current course the mod is on, at release it is not even going to be close to "finished." Your definition of "finished" is when you hit the game's limit, not when it is complete. There is FAR much more you can do to make it better, such as integrating OpenSauce so you don't have to strip shit from the mod.

If you have unlimited space you'll just keep adding stuff? Really? If you're saying that you don't have the self control to call it quits and finalize something, you're ridiculous. And you should be considering everything - that's what makes it the best it can be. Unless you can come up with a rock solid, undisputed reason to not include something completely plausible, you should make every effort to include that in the release build within the development period.

I find it fun solving the problems, just like someone like Dano finds it fun finding more challenging things to create and figuring out how to do it. I use to have a definition of finished, which resulted in MPv2, and we all know everyone's opinion on that.

We don't work on this to turn out out a series of maps, we do it for fun, and us releasing it is something we just do, because we want people to be able to have fun with it. It was going to be finished before we started adding new BSPs to it, but we thought it would be FUN FOR US to have new areas and do our own completely custom parts. You say we should consider everything, and unless theres a good reason not to do it, we should do it. You're acting spoiled, your saying "do this because it's a good idea", and then expect us to do it. You have any idea how many good idea there are out there? You expect us to slave over other people's ideas and make them possible just because we can? Everytime someone comes to this forum with an idea thread their immediately shot down and told to learn to do it themselves, or prove themselves first so people will help them. But just because we are skilled, we should be bend over backwords for every idea that isn't a bad one?

I am the leader of this team, obviously you think I'm doing a shit job making decisions, so maybe your better off trying to help a team with a capable leader to save this version crisis.

[Heathen]

I say let KM do it masters.

come on.....

[.Wolf™]

If it makes the mod better.. Then do it.. And if the playerbase is reduced because of the restrictions... Then so be it.. You got a fans ect and im sure...That if they cant run it they will either buy the game to get it..Then again there will be complaints but thats just life.. You cant satisfie every Noob in the galaxy you know:)

[Hunter]

Do it Masterz :) You know you want to :p

Your like, " YEAA! LETS DO IT! ADD ALL OF THESE AWESOME THINGS AND MAKE AN EPIC MOD!! Whoot!!:dance:"

*Masterz dances around his room*

You know you do that hahaha.

Come onnnn, it will make the mod awesome. If you dont then... errmm... your gay? :p

[Masterz1337]

If/when i do agree to it, it's not because of what you guys think. We're having a team meeting as of now.

[Hunter]

Go on Masterz you crazy fool Lol :p

[Heathen]

Haha, way to get on my "come on...." bandwagon guys.

We all just dropped logic and started razzing him.


"Do it. Dont be a pussy"

[Limited]

Masters, I had alot of respect for you, however this batch of ignorant and

Why the fuck would you not want to use 1.08? Because of the fucking idiots that pirate the game? Why do you give a shit about them huh? "Yeah we want more audience", no fuck that, qualitative over quantitative my friend.

You complain that kornman will enable the growth of the stunting community, firstly I dont understand why you have such a gruge over them, I'm not a fan of their work, it is pretty poor however they are actually making mods and releasing them on in a quick fashion. They dont give a shit about the bureaucratic bollocks that goes on inside of "the top" halo modding teams, a great example is this pathetic thread. They do it because they want to have fun and a laugh and then share it, simple as that.

As for locking down dev mode, are you insane? To me Halo is ALL about freedoms, thats why I am still sticking with developing for halo. The possibilties are endless and thats why I love it. You seem to want to stop it so they dont ruin the SP or fuck up their game saves. If they fuck their game save up they will make another game save.

To me your putting a condom on halo but 2 sizes too small. Your stopping the fun and its fucking hurting.

Why put all this protection on? Dont you want people to experiment and have a laugh? I have yet to finish the Halo 1 SP, why have I even though the game is like 7 years old? Because I end up messing around and having so much fun I dont bother playing out the story.

In summary, your releasing this mod for all the wrong reasons. Your forgetting the passion of modding and you are doing it for all the glory. Dont lie and say "its totally harmless we just want to appeal to everyone" because thats a bunch of twoddle, your fans will go out their way to play it.

If some one cant be arsed to update Halo or buy a legit copy then they arent true fans, they dont do it for the same reason. And those are defiintly not the fans you should be appealing and catering for.

[jcap]

You say we should consider everything, and unless theres a good reason not to do it, we should do it. You're acting spoiled, your saying "do this because it's a good idea", and then expect us to do it. You have any idea how many good idea there are out there? You expect us to slave over other people's ideas and make them possible just because we can? Everytime someone comes to this forum with an idea thread their immediately shot down and told to learn to do it themselves, or prove themselves first so people will help them. But just because we are skilled, we should be bend over backwords for every idea that isn't a bad one?

I kinda think you may have taken what I meant a little too literally, but yes, you should try to incorporate everything you want. That's what makes something the best it can be. If you have an end product and you feel like you had the chance to have done more, it isn't finished. But there are limits, of course.


I am the leader of this team, obviously you think I'm doing a shit job making decisions, so maybe your better off trying to help a team with a capable leader to save this version crisis.
You are doing a shitty job making decisions. You are bringing down the entire team so you can stand up to me when I am telling you that you are wrong. Right now, this is more about the entire mod than me, and I am absolutely DISGUSTED at your poor leadership, as others should be too. You are an embarrassment to the entire team.

Right now you have Teh Lag who realizes that it is in the best interest to use what you have available. He has done very much for you, and he continues to work his ass off. If anything, you should be listening to his opinion on this issue.



Since the beginning of this debate, the issue has changed countless times. One by one, your arguments have been getting shot down, and you've been presenting new ones that are weaker and weaker. It's obvious that you're being backed into a corner and you don't want to back down. It's like you have something against me and you are using your mod to try and stick it to me. You are showing poor leadership by sacrificing the mod's quality so you can walk away with your head up high, like you won. The truth, though, is that you didn't win. You are losing, and if you release it, you lost. You will lose the game against yourself, not me. By not making the best it should so you can act like "the man," your mod is going to lose.

[Ifafudafi]

CMT Drama©, only on Modacity.net. Most of what needs to have been said has already been said, so I'll try and keep this short.

1.00 has a larger userbase due to piracy. Known fact. By downgrading the mod; by stripping it of promised features; by dumbing it down to appeal to them, you're ignoring the dedicated community which has supported, clamored for, and whether you know it or not, influenced it since its beginnings. Despite the claims that CMTSP is CMT's mod, not the community's, the stated need to make it available to as many people as possible is a direct response to the 1.00 community, who are primarily consisted of the kind of people we've generally tried to avoid giving the benefit of custom content.

There's a point at which you should stop; there's always room for improvement, and mindless adding isn't healthy once out of control, but to axe promised features which have already been heavily worked on for the sake of some pirates is stupid. Please, Masterz, I implore you, get off your high horse and make the mod the best it can be. CMT is one of the most (if not the most) respected teams in Halo modding, and to see that position lost because you aren't willing to listen to your fans is truly saddening.

Rule #1 of game developement: Listen to the fans. They're the ones who'll be playing it.

[CodeBrain]

Rule #1 of game developement: Listen to the fans. They're the ones who'll be playing it.


Yes, that is true. However, MOST of the fans are on 1.00 OR 1.04. If your rule is true, then the players from 1.00 and 1.04 have a majority vote over 1.08.

Your argument is invalid :smug:

[Kornman00]

I just went thru and documented what all I needed to change in the HEK and client\dedi for more tag memory and tag instances. All that I need to do now is develop the OS subsystem and the HEK modifications

[Masterz1337]

So after a long discussion that covered every aspect of this decision, we've decided that we'll use OS. Assuming Kornman can do as he promises, the ultimate deciding factor for this came out that OS will make the mod easier to work on. With an exception of one request, we will not be adding in any more content or ideas from this point on. If the offer is still on the table, what we need in the update to OS is an increase of tag slots, tag space, script lines, map file size, the vehicle and biped limit in the tools made unlimited to our mod's demand. Our request is that shader_environments be usable on non-bsp models, as it was Bungie's original intention.

[Ifafudafi]

Yes, that is true. However, MOST of the fans are on 1.00 OR 1.04. If your rule is true, then the players from 1.00 and 1.04 have a majority vote over 1.08.

Your argument is invalid

Pirates don't count. REVALIDATED

Glad to see the addition of OS, but I do agree that I think it's time to just close off more community additions and get this bastard done with. And I'm assuming putting shader_environments on objects means bump-mapping, right?

[Arteen]

Jcap, this isn't your mod, and it isn't your team, so please stop taking things so personally and making demands of our team. We have no obligation to use OS, or to exclusively support 1.08. If you want something done, do it yourself; don't demand others to it.

[il Duce Primo]

Pirates don't count. REVALIDATED

Glad to see the addition of OS, but I do agree that I think it's time to just close off more community additions and get this bastard done with. And I'm assuming putting shader_environments on objects means bump-mapping, right?
Yes they do, because they are still players.

[jcap]

Jcap, this isn't your mod, and it isn't your team, so please stop taking things so personally and making demands of our team. We have no obligation to use OS, or to exclusively support 1.08. If you want something done, do it yourself; don't demand others to it.
The reason I carried this on for so long was because of how Masters was being so ignorant by not using the available resources. Instead, he was making up poor excuses to disregard Kornman's offer. I'm still disgusted at Masters for his reckless reasoning, but I am glad that you decided on the right thing.

You're correct that this isn't my mod. But when it was heading south, I felt obligated to step in. When it was clear the leader wasn't competent enough to make responsible decisions, I said I was going to make it my priority to not let this debate die in its tracks. And right now, you cannot say that it didn't help swing the fact that Masters "already made [his] choice for the future of the mod."

Thanks for putting the effort into making it even better.

[Heathen]

Yes, that is true. However, MOST of the fans are on 1.00 OR 1.04. If your rule is true, then the players from 1.00 and 1.04 have a majority vote over 1.08.

Your argument is invalid :smug:

Plus, I am pretty sure if you told the fans here what the full potential of the mod is and what it would be if they watered it down to work with older versions, I am pretty sure the fans would MUCH prefer the better version.

Unless they are whiney complaining selfish dipshits who think if they cant have it no one can.

[teh lag]

Enough.

We've agreed to use OS.

I see no reason for further debate until Korn responds to Masterz' latest post.

[Masterz1337]

The reason I carried this on for so long was because of how Masters was being so ignorant by not using the available resources. Instead, he was making up poor excuses to disregard Kornman's offer. I'm still disgusted at Masters for his reckless reasoning, but I am glad that you decided on the right thing.

You're correct that this isn't my mod. But when it was heading south, I felt obligated to step in. When it was clear the leader wasn't competent enough to make responsible decisions, I said I was going to make it my priority to not let this debate die in its tracks. And right now, you cannot say that it didn't help swing the fact that Masters "already made [his] choice for the future of the mod."

Thanks for putting the effort into making it even better.
Who the fuck put you in the position to make decisions about my team? The only reason you are the admin here is because there's no one to fill your shoes. Talking about competent leaders, it takes a piss poor one to spend 3 years working on a single UI. Seeing as I have all your tags for it, maybe I'll make my own decision about how it should finally be finished.

Yeah you don't like it either.

[ShadowSpartan]

If the offer is still on the table, what we need in the update to OS is an increase of tag slots, tag space, script lines, map file size, the vehicle and biped limit in the tools made unlimited to our mod's demand. Our request is that shader_environments be usable on non-bsp models, as it was Bungie's original intention.
Kornman never even mention doing those, or additional changes at all. You should be grateful that he has offered to increase the amount of tag memory and tag instances allowed in the engine. I have already increased the vehicle and biped limits for you, do you really need more? And the last request you made, that is not a simple edit by any means. I find it funny how you were so hell bent not to use OS, but now that you are, you are demanding that Kornman add even more features than he offered to do.

[teh lag]

Enough.

We've agreed to use OS.

I see no reason for further debate until Korn responds to Masterz' latest post.

We will get nowhere by continuing an argument that has no point anymore now that Masterz has agreed to use OS.

Korn can use his section mod powers to reopen this when he has a response; until then I can only see this go downhill.

[jcap]

(This post is not meant to be read with any tone of attitude)


Who the fuck put you in the position to make decisions about my team? The only reason you are the admin here is because there's no one to fill your shoes.
Hey, I never went up to a single person and told them to do anything. I never made a decision. I interjected and greatly persuaded the decision, but I never called the shots. I was acting solely on my own with the support of the community and your own team member(s). What I did do is push against every barrier placed in the way to make it clear why you should be using OpenSauce.

Part of the reason I am an admin here is because there is no one to fill my shoes. You're correct. I achieved this position, though. There's been times I've thought of stepping down, especially over the past year. Up until a month ago or so, I had very little activity because I was extremely busy with everything else. What really prevented me from stepping down were...
1. I still feel like one day I'm finally going to get around to redoing the site.
2. It's hard to let go of something I've been a part of from the beginning - something I essentially built.
3. (most important) Who else would take my position? I might not do much, but when there is a problem, I can handle it. Who else is familiar with the structure of the site and its subdomains and other domains? How everything is setup? How everything works?


Talking about competent leaders, it takes a piss poor one to spend 3 years working on a single UI. Seeing as I have all your tags for it, maybe I'll make my own decision about how it should finally be finished.
^ Competent leader example above ^

I can see the point you're trying to make: making the decisions for me. I've gone through several people and I've cut back from the original idea of having a fully detailed scene, and I've even considered different scenes. The UI has made progress, but I've been silent about it. In addition, there's some major changes that have been slated for this summer. It will make everything you have seen thus far extremely outdated.


Kornman never even mention doing those, or additional changes at all. You should be grateful that he has offered to increase the amount of tag memory and tag instances allowed in the engine. I have already increased the vehicle and biped limits for you, do you really need more? And the last request you made, that is not a simple edit by any means. I find it funny how you were so hell bent not to use OS, but now that you are, you are demanding that Kornman add even more features than he offered to do.Yeah, I do agree with you, but I do think that if he can allow those, he should at least give them (or the major ones) a try. With what they requested, it seems that they might now be able to add back what was cut out (such as cutscenes), or add more to make use of their new space. It would also further extend CE, a benefit for everyone who might ever have a use for it.

I know this thread was locked, and I feel that I shouldn't have posted, but I really did need to make it clear. The argument is over. If you want to respond, I'm not trying to lock you out - I just want to get it in before I forget and Kornman starts talk on OpenSauce.

[Kornman00]

Since your team came to the conclusion to use it, I'll make it one of my top priorities so you'll have time to test it with your maps.Currently I'm looking at a 50% increase in both max possible tag instances and tag memory. For cache size, I'm looking at an increase for all scenario types to 512MB. For scripts I'm not so sure about changing, I haven't done research in what I'll be affecting in that area yet, so no promises.As for vehicle and biped limits, this is something I'm really not savvy with. I'm not increasing the memory for game state objects so you could very well crash the game because it can't allocate a new projectile. Its not something you can easily test for unless you have actual stress tests for each encounter in a scenario. Then you have to worry about the player breaking the norms (ie, getting a bunch of vehicles together then going into a big fight with a group of marines etc). So I won't be increasing those limits. Shader environment tags are meant for environment objects, I'm not breaking that, so that won't be done either.However I am also researching into allowing multiple bitmaps\sound.map resources. Key word "researching", not promising to release or finish. Basically, it would allow the user to specify in a config file which ones to use at startup. I may be also able to make it use different bitmaps\sounds based on what maps you play, but only in campaign, as it would put too much processing time during MP loads. There may be another trick up the sleave you may enjoy.
So after a long discussion that covered every aspect of this decision, we've decided that we'll use OS. Assuming Kornman can do as he promises, the ultimate deciding factor for this came out that OS will make the mod easier to work on. With an exception of one request, we will not be adding in any more content or ideas from this point on. If the offer is still on the table, what we need in the update to OS is an increase of tag slots, tag space, script lines, map file size, the vehicle and biped limit in the tools made unlimited to our mod's demand. Our request is that shader_environments be usable on non-bsp models, as it was Bungie's original intention.
EDIT: I'm using a proxy which isnt formating the post right (ie missing paragraph tags). Sorry.