[WIP] Precipice

[Siliconmaster]

Hey everyone. A few of you from the old EP forums, gruntmaps, or the long-defunct FMT may remember this relic. Precipice has been my summer project in addition to the year or so I slaved over it almost 4 years ago. It is large, now playable, and I am proud of it. Lately I have been giving alpha/beta copies of it to people for testing, and the feedback has been both overwhelming and wonderful. Much of it resembles "gameplay here fails, do something", so I do. Other feedback I receive is aesthetic in nature, and overall I am still working a lot on that part of it. I knew that if I posted a WIP topic I'd get some good feedback, but also a lot of the usual harsh/flaming criticism, so I waited until I was happy with the direction the map was going in and the way it looked. That point would be an hour and a half ago, when I began typing this endless (including the spoilers) post.

But enough with words, I know you all want pictures, so I took many. Spoiler'd for 56Krs (if they still exist, god help their souls).


First off, the red base exterior
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1564/precipiceredbaseexterio.jpg

To its left, the blue base
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5639/precipicebluebaseexteri.jpg

A shot looking up at the bridge and the massive retaining wall
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9948/precipicereversecopy.jpg

The opposite direction, showing the bases, bridge, banshee roosts, and control room
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5670/precipicewideshotcopy.jpg

A closer shot of the control room and the lighting, plus the tunnel entrance
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2066/precipicecontrolroomclo.jpg

The new bridge, much thanks to Ara
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5050/precipicebridgecopy.jpg

Blue base top-side
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/381/precipicebluetopcopy.jpg

Red base top-side
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/715/precipiceredtopcopy.jpg

The interior of blue base, aiming toward the opening to the outside
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4420/precipicebluebasecopy.jpg

A reverse shot, showing the flag room and the three surrounding teleporters
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5826/precipicebaseflagroomco.jpg

The route up to the banshee roost (pardon the physics-defying camera angle)
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9503/precipicebansheeroostco.jpg

The location of the land bridge
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7882/precipicebaseslandbridg.jpg

One of 4 cool, but semi-useless vehicle bays. This is one of blue's.
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2832/precipicevehiclebaycopy.jpg

The interior of the control room, aiming toward the front windows
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8038/precipicecontrolroomcop.jpg

The reverse angle, also showing the tunnel exits
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6954/precipicecontrolroomrev.jpg

The control room tunnels- layout better seen in the renders below
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9740/precipicecontrolroomtun.jpg

Back render
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5100/precipicebackrender.jpg

Top render
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4249/precipicetoprender.jpg

One perfectly reasonable question that has been raised has been gameplay. The map is CTF-based, though slayer will hopefully work pretty well too. Below I have taken the two renders and attempted via photoshop to illustrate my current designs.


http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9080/precipiceroutesback.jpg

In this back shot you can see the vertical movement routes. Teleporters are in green.

Route #1 is the most basic- out the base, across the very narrow bridge and into the opposite base. This would be somewhat suicidal in a game since there are multiple turrets on guard and the enemy team could easily pick off people coming across.

#2 is the top route. Via the teleporter at the back of the base, players can go top-side and utilize warthogs to either cros the bridge (visible in this image) or go through the control room (visible in the "top" image). This is an alternate route, and passing through the control room is more protected than going over the partially-destroyed bridge.

#3 is the banshee roost, visible in a screenshot farther up the page. From there players can fly anywhere they want to, but damage to players in banshees has been decreased thanks to a suggestion from Masterz. This should help even out combat. It is certainly the easiest to get from place to place in the banshee, but alternate routes are much sneakier.

#4 is the caves/landbridge route. While a little hard to illustrate, a one-way side teleporter takes the player into a small cave area which leads down a chute to the base of the landbridge. From there the player can either return up to the base, or move across the landbridge to take advantage of the opposing team's one-way return teleporter, shown with the dotted green line.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2923/precipiceroutestop.jpg

Here you can see the extent of route #2 much better, including the tunnels down and through the control room.

#5 is also visible. It consists of one-way teleporters to the control room, a mid-level hub where players can take the lone banshee or take warthogs up the tunnels.

Work on this project has sped up considerably since I got home for the summer. All right, that's an understatement. This was a half-textured, single smoothing group gmax monstrosity as of 2 months ago. The fact that it is even in game at all, let alone playable, is incredible. The goal now is to make it as enjoyable and nice-looking as possible.

On that note, things I already have on my feedback list of "urgent, cool, and you want me to do what!?" are as follows:



Vary the cliffs and add player clipping to any crafty players who somehow manage to get above the vehicle ceiling (in progress)
Find a way to balance the banshees (sort of in progress)
Add details such as weeds in the cracks, etc. (In progress, but not that high on my list at the moment)
Add a ladder in the control room pit so players who survive the fall aren't forced to suicide by jumping out the canyon exit
Railings. Over half of my testers requested this, and I'm finally moving toward giving in. It is a little unnerving to exit a teleporter and be 3 feet from a splattery doom.
A makeover for the walls/interlocks- Ara/Icedragon has a model of the wall and as of yesterday has graciously agreed to do some work on it, leaving me free to work on the rest of the list. Once again he has my greatest thanks.
Taller teleporters- suggested by Ara after he kept feeling the (totally unnecessary :P) need to duck as he walked through them

My list of larger, more difficult, yet understandable and cool conceptsis thus:



Break up the monotony of the canyon walls- I'm thinking large supports or buttresses along the walls, but I haven't decided yet. I do agree that they are pretty barren and plain as is, but I did want them to look artificial. I'll eventually find a way to do this one.
Added forerunner architecture up top. Right now the small machines are the only buildings top-side, and the grass is devoid of any cover. a30 style pipes and similar tech might work well to give players on foot a helping hand. Also, buildings in the distance over the top of the cliffs would be a nice thematic touch.
Floodify me, capt'n. Warsaw suggested an idea what actually fits in with the original theme of the map, which was some sort of WIP forerunner canyon had been attacked by the flood, and the end of the long canyon sealed itself off to contain the infestation. The destroyed bridge and various flood sound effects in the level attest to this, but Warsaw proposed that this theme be brought to the entire map in full force. Experiments in corners, flood growths in the lower caves, the whole deal. I am strongly in favor of this idea, but I simply don't have the willpower to even start on that until I have the map the way I want it otherwise. This is probably the most drastic, yet most awesome of the suggestions I've gotten so far.

Stuff I'm aware of, but may not change drastically:


"That section of architecture doesn't look forerunner enough"- I am well aware that over a year my modeling skills changed tremendously, and with it the closeness to forerunner architecture shifted as well. Right now my explanation is that parts of it were hastily finished when it became apparent the flood threat was becoming more dangerous. However, I am considering redesigning some doorways, etc. Large-scale remodeling is far into my denial zone, however. It may not be the best constructive mindset, but I've spent far too much of my halo-playing life on this thing and I can't bring myself to start writing over the stuff I spent so much time on.

Okay, now that the wall of pictures and text is over, give me your feedback. :allears: I want Precipice to be fun, pretty, and useful. Thanks for your time.

Update #1: August 29th, 2009
It's been a little more than a month, so I believe it is time for an update. Please excuse the double post.

I've conducted multiple playtests of the map, and the results have been very helpful. ShadowSpartan whoring the banshee tunnels led to those being closed off, and other feedback led to vehicle placement changes and a total removal of vehicles from the lower land bridge.

However, the focus of the past month has been getting the map to not look like crap. LlamaJuice graciously took on the job of nagging tutor, and I thank him greatly for his help and feedback.

And now, picture time.

First off, the biggest visual changes have been just inside the base walls. Working backwards from most boring to least, I decided that area was completely devoid of any and all interest. For almost 4 weeks I worked to improve it, and here are the results.

First of all, a reminder of what it used to look like, albeit the blue base:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4420/precipicebluebasecopy.jpg

And the new version:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4733/precipiceredbasemirrore.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4733/precipiceredbasemirrore.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4733/precipiceredbasemirrore.jpg

The corner alcove:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7900/76307619.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1405/53545698.jpg

Instead of the ladder and the long boring hallway that used to lead to the banshee roost, I've created a sniper overlook with a teleporter which leads directly to the banshee platform. This cuts down on player moving time, while adding a new element of gameplay to the bases. Now players will have to watch for enemies not only from the front entrance, but to the upper sides as well.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6899/35107832.jpg



Now that this section is basically completed, I've started working on other areas. For the exterior parts of the map I'm still planning to do a lot more work, especially on the giant walls. For now though I've added some scenery and trees, and I think that even at this basic stage they add a lot to the look:

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3069/34549821.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5950/58921694.jpg


The control room seems to me to be in need of the most tuning, since it has no cover whatsoever and at the moment is nothing more than a transportation hub and a hog-war pit (which is actually quite fun, as Warsaw and I found out).

First off, some added details on the window to make it less bland:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3131/73965692.jpg

I also added a ladder and a banshee to the pit below the platforms so that it has a purpose and players no longer get stuck down there.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5086/20874655.jpg

As you can see, I also took rooster's suggestion and modified the platforms to make the marathon symbol:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/622/24564497.jpg

This leads to a really nice silhouette (that's for you, Llama) when going up the ramp:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6550/74070400.jpg

For cover and detail purposes I'm currently working on hologram consoles to place around the control room. These four are the only permanent ones so far- those arrayed around the perimeter will probably be modified:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8398/17898999.jpg

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8946/48660388.jpg



I'm headed back to college on Monday, so the pace of work on this project is probably going to slow down a lot. However, I hope that people like what they see, and I'm hoping to run more playtests into September to get gameplay tuned up.

As always, feedback is welcome.
Update #2: September 7th, 2009
It turns out the portalling issues weren't all that was causing the exception. For some reason boulder_small was causing it. After 3 hours of slow trial and error I finally narrowed it down. Blue base is now as nice-looking as red base, and the teleporters are all fixed and usable.

The blue shrooms
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/12/bluebasenew1.jpg

Blue base
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9681/bluebasenew2.jpg

Note the lack of holograms on the mushrooms due to lack of time. Those shots are some of the only angles without any portal clipping. There will be some MAJOR portal construction and revision before release, whenever that might be.

I did conduct a short playtest with Bacon and ShadowSpartan a few minutes ago, and it was fun, albeit a little empty with only 3 people. For some reason the game was lagging, but I'm not sure if it was the map or my connection, since I was hosting. We'll have to figure that out later.
Update #3: October 5th, 2009
I have remade the banshee/wasp/flyingthings pad so it looks substantially more interesting. As a reminder, here's the original, as it currently stands in the map:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3086/bansheepadold.jpg

It's basically a slightly elongated box with a pad attached and one light.

Here's the work I did today in my free time- full explanation after the pictures:

Pad view:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7883/bansheepad1.jpg

The ceiling detail:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2535/bansheepad2.jpg

Far shot:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/238/bansheepad3.jpg

The right doorway, which will be unlocked:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4681/bansheepad4.jpg

And the left doorway, which will either be open, or locked to prevent players from getting lost:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/3829/bansheepad5.jpg

As always those images are in high resolution, but in shot tags. If you want a bit of a closer look, click on them to enlarge.

My thought behind the new design is that a teleporter wouldn't just be hanging out on a pad, it would be in a back room similar to Gephyrophobia. Also, it being a whole facility and such, there would be other areas in the map players either can't get to, or are unused by gameplay. The second doorway is one such example, similar to the side doorways in 343 Guilty Spark. I may place a locked door there, and fill it with covenant crates or something similarly atmospheric. I can also use crates and lighting to direct players to the correct door pretty easily.

Where the pad meets the canyon wall it looks a little bland to me, but I'll think of something. The textures are semi-finalized, but I didn't put a huge amount of effort into them, so they can always be changed. The main light in the area will come from the recessed lights in the ceiling. With the ceiling design I was going for a bit of the Death Island/B40 look, with visual scaffolding and lattices in high spaces.
Update #4: October 9th, 2009
I now consider the new banshee/wasp platform complete, unless there are drastic complaints. Renders:

Overall view:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6976/bayfinished1.jpg

A different view of the platform supports:
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7801/supports.jpg

The platform gizmos, which have lights as well as a cool recessed area under glass. Thanks to Lightning for that idea:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5440/bayfinished2.jpg

New details on the wall, light fixtures, a border along the edges, etc:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4025/bayfinished3.jpg

The overall interior:
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2338/bayfinished4.jpg

The new hollow section, with glass showing:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9772/outcroppingglass.jpg

And without:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7127/outcroppingclear.jpg

I'm happy with this section, and I think with the doors in place and the correct indicator lights working it will work well for gameplay as well. The new hollow section in the outcropping will prevent players from camping on the other side.

[Advancebo]

Looks good.

[Ki11a_FTW]

i like the style of it, it reminds me of when CE first came out, that giant wall needs more details on it though

[Siliconmaster]

i like the style of it, it reminds me of when CE first came out, that giant wall needs more details on it though

In progress. Hopefully Ara will be able to make it look quite nice. I don't want to wear him out as my miracle worker- the job he did on the metal slab that was the bridge is marvelous, and I asked him politely to help me with the walls. :P If he can't get them looking right I'll have to go at it, but I'm afraid my detail-oriented modeling skills aren't all that impressive.

[Con]

Reminds me of that part in h2, quarantine zone or sacred icon I don't remember, where you cross that huge gap between two massive walls. The map is a bit bland and could use better lighting and atmosphere, but I like it anyway because of the awe factor in the forerunner spaces.

[Roostervier]

I think the big circle thing you've got there should have a small section cut out so it looks like a marathon symbol from above. o:

Also, it looks nice.

[PopeAK49]

Somethings are quite odd, some are quite interesting, and others are very cool. I agree with the lighting though. The only place were I see good lighting is the forerunner cave.

[ThePlague]

P nice stuff man, looks promising

[BobtheGreatII]

Looks good no doubt. But as people are pointing out, there's a lot of wasted space.

[Sever]

The architecture looks... ok... mainly because a good deal of it is the basic H1 architecture, and you're just reusing it in whatever context you feel like, but that's not the main issue. It's simply too freakin' huge. Maybe if it were 1/8th of its current size, then it'd be OK. Also, there's zero cover ANYWHERE where it is needed. Basically, whichever team controls the Sniper Rifles and Banshees will win hands down.

[Sel]

Reminds me of just about every single 04-05 map, in modeling, I don't know about gameplay.

It just gives me that huge 'ugly' vibe, that every one of those maps gives me.

Might be fun to play, but I wouldn't know without playing it.

[Alwin Roth]

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1564/precipiceredbaseexterio.jpg

i could picture flag carriers making a dash for that skinny bridge...

[Arteen]

I agree with the 04-05 vibe people are getting from the map. It's huge, the geometry is simple, and there's a lot of long empty corridors and paths that are never any fun.

[Siliconmaster]

I agree with the 04-05 vibe people are getting from the map. It's huge, the geometry is simple, and there's a lot of long empty corridors and paths that are never any fun.

Ironically, the original framework was indeed made in '05, so you guys aren't far from the truth in that regard.

I'm aware the there a large spaces that will just eat up moving time, such as the big fields up top. That's one reason why I'm going to be trying to add some additonal cover. Also, LlamaJuice suggested that I increase the player running speed slightly, and it really does make a difference.


The architecture looks... ok... mainly because a good deal of it is the basic H1 architecture, and you're just reusing it in whatever context you feel like, but that's not the main issue. It's simply too freakin' huge. Maybe if it were 1/8th of its current size, then it'd be OK. Also, there's zero cover ANYWHERE where it is needed. Basically, whichever team controls the Sniper Rifles and Banshees will win hands down.

Actually, the only stuff directly taken from H1 is the general geometry of the thin central bridge and the basic structure of the tunnels. I built those from scratch while using b40 as a reference.

One problem that I've been fighting with is that when I originally built the map in '05 I'm not really sure gameplay played all that large a role in my thinking. The map was actually bigger and more complex, and I had to go back through the old files to find a backup without all the convoluted stuff in it. At least it's possible to morph this map into a decent and fun map, whereas the "more completed" (yet now extremely obsolete) version would have been impossible to do anything with.

Overall, cover has yet to be added where it is needed, and I'm aware of that. The fields, the control room, and other places will all hopefully gain much more cover than the existing oh-god-there's-a-banshee-I'm-screwed version. In fact, I recently made the top of the canyon wall thicker and eroded the grass behind it to provide a small, but usable cover ditch.

Lighting is also a wip. My thoughts right now are to finish the geometry some more before I go back and start messing with lights. This way I won't have to change them all over again if I move stuff around.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Siliconmaster]

It's been a little more than a month, so I believe it is time for an update. Please excuse the double post.

I've conducted multiple playtests of the map, and the results have been very helpful. ShadowSpartan whoring the banshee tunnels led to those being closed off, and other feedback led to vehicle placement changes and a total removal of vehicles from the lower land bridge.

However, the focus of the past month has been getting the map to not look like crap. LlamaJuice graciously took on the job of nagging tutor, and I thank him greatly for his help and feedback.

And now, picture time.

First off, the biggest visual changes have been just inside the base walls. Working backwards from most boring to least, I decided that area was completely devoid of any and all interest. For almost 4 weeks I worked to improve it, and here are the results.

First of all, a reminder of what it used to look like, albeit the blue base:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4420/precipicebluebasecopy.jpg

And the new version:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4733/precipiceredbasemirrore.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4733/precipiceredbasemirrore.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4733/precipiceredbasemirrore.jpg

The corner alcove:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7900/76307619.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1405/53545698.jpg

Instead of the ladder and the long boring hallway that used to lead to the banshee roost, I've created a sniper overlook with a teleporter which leads directly to the banshee platform. This cuts down on player moving time, while adding a new element of gameplay to the bases. Now players will have to watch for enemies not only from the front entrance, but to the upper sides as well.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6899/35107832.jpg



Now that this section is basically completed, I've started working on other areas. For the exterior parts of the map I'm still planning to do a lot more work, especially on the giant walls. For now though I've added some scenery and trees, and I think that even at this basic stage they add a lot to the look:

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3069/34549821.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5950/58921694.jpg


The control room seems to me to be in need of the most tuning, since it has no cover whatsoever and at the moment is nothing more than a transportation hub and a hog-war pit (which is actually quite fun, as Warsaw and I found out).

First off, some added details on the window to make it less bland:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3131/73965692.jpg

I also added a ladder and a banshee to the pit below the platforms so that it has a purpose and players no longer get stuck down there.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5086/20874655.jpg

As you can see, I also took rooster's suggestion and modified the platforms to make the marathon symbol:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/622/24564497.jpg

This leads to a really nice silhouette (that's for you, Llama) when going up the ramp:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6550/74070400.jpg

For cover and detail purposes I'm currently working on hologram consoles to place around the control room. These four are the only permanent ones so far- those arrayed around the perimeter will probably be modified:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8398/17898999.jpg

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8946/48660388.jpg

I'm headed back to college on Monday, so the pace of work on this project is probably going to slow down a lot. However, I hope that people like what they see, and I'm hoping to run more playtests into September to get gameplay tuned up.

As always, feedback is welcome.

[Rentafence]

The second picture is so awesome. This looks infinitely better than before.

[Ki11a_FTW]

Wow! looks 100x better!

[ShadowSpartan]

ShadowSpartan whoring the banshee tunnels led to those being closed off, and other feedback led to vehicle placement changes and a total removal of vehicles from the lower land bridge.
Thanks for ruining my fun :(, it's not my fault I'm awesome.

In all seriousness though, that needed to be removed or else gameplay would have been shitty in the final version.

[Siliconmaster]

Updated the OP. Glad you guys like it. : )


Thanks for ruining my fun :(, it's not my fault I'm awesome.

In all seriousness though, that needed to be removed or else gameplay would have been shitty in the final version.

Haha. I really wish I could have been there the first time you appeared in a banshee inside their base. :downs:

[Sever]

If you make the whole map JUST the area in pictures 2-7, then it'd be great. Take that red area and make a more complex interior map out of it, rather than having the whole control room and exterior crap. I'd say try something like Prisoner, but without its claustrophobia, restricted maneuverability, and ground floor (bottomless pits are required in all large interior Forerunner areas).

[klange]

Haha. I really wish I could have been there the first time you appeared in a banshee inside their base. :downs:
It was pretty much like "aaah, wtf, how did he get in here, oh god!" *pew pew pew* "Run for the tele!"

Also, upload the newest build and send me the link.

If you make the whole map JUST the area in pictures 2-7, then it'd be great. Take that red area and make a more complex interior map out of it, rather than having the whole control room and exterior crap. I'd say try something like Prisoner, but without its claustrophobia, restricted maneuverability, and ground floor (bottomless pits are required in all large interior Forerunner areas).
I said basically the same thing to him a few days ago:

(02:55:22 PM) Kevin Lange: You could have like, just that ledge.
(02:55:25 PM) Kevin Lange: And it would be awesome.
(02:55:30 PM) Siliconmaster482: hahaha
(02:55:31 PM) Kevin Lange: Like,a sort of sniper map, I guess.

[Siliconmaster]

If you make the whole map JUST the area in pictures 2-7, then it'd be great. Take that red area and make a more complex interior map out of it, rather than having the whole control room and exterior crap. I'd say try something like Prisoner, but without its claustrophobia, restricted maneuverability, and ground floor (bottomless pits are required in all large interior Forerunner areas).

That's definitely interesting, and I could probably focus gameplay a lot more that way. However, I've spent so much time on the rest of it that it would make me cry to get rid of it all. :smith:

I'm going to make the whole current layout, interior and exterior, work as well as possible. After that, I'm not sure I'll have enough time to make a second map using the interior section, but if someone wanted to help me I might be up for attempting it.

[Sel]

haahah the interior pictures look really cool

dunno about the rest though

[Sever]

Fuck it. Shed some tears and get over it. It'll make you and your map better.

[Heathen]

looks awesome

[Warsaw]

Fuck it. Shed some tears and get over it. It'll make you and your map better.

I dunno if you've played it or not, but it isn't bad gameplay-wise, at least in the build I played (and that was WITH the banshee whoring). The only place that REALLY can stand to be removed is the "cave" section underneath the rest of the map. Since banshees can no longer get in there, it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

[Siliconmaster]

I dunno if you've played it or not, but it isn't bad gameplay-wise, at least in the build I played (and that was WITH the banshee whoring). The only place that REALLY can stand to be removed is the "cave" section underneath the rest of the map. Since banshees can no longer get in there, it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

Alternate footpath, plus rockets. And that fact that it comes out inside the other base. Roundabout, but sneaky. The banshee thing was always just a side-effect, not the purpose.

[Sever]

It isn't bad gameplay-wise.That's the thing.
Of course it isn't bad - it's just like every other map out there: two bases with vehicle-friendly terrain and infantry-friendly workarounds between them. We already have hundreds of those, each using the same basic formula and tweaking it slightly. And yes, most of them aren't bad. There just aren't many that are profound, though, and I see this map being no different. What we lack as a whole are the innovative maps that take the norm and turn it on its head, or refract it, or tie it in knots, all while mantaining the basics of Halo's gameplay. Gone are the maps of yesterday, the ones that you only needed to see a single screencap of their originality to be ravenously enticed to download and explore, and actually lived up to their lofty promises. I hope that there will be a revival of those days. I want to see this map be one of those, not just another where its stunning vistas and haunting chasms are tucked in a back corner away from all the pistol-straifing and 'hog-splattering out on a generic plain.

[Siliconmaster]

That's the thing.
Of course it isn't bad - it's just like every other map out there: two bases with vehicle-friendly terrain and infantry-friendly workarounds between them. We already have hundreds of those, each using the same basic formula and tweaking it slightly. And yes, most of them aren't bad. There just aren't many that are profound, though, and I see this map being no different. What we lack as a whole are the innovative maps that take the norm and turn it on its head, or refract it, or tie it in knots, all while mantaining the basics of Halo's gameplay. Gone are the maps of yesterday, the ones that you only needed to see a single screencap of their originality to be ravenously enticed to download and explore, and actually lived up to their lofty promises. I hope that there will be a revival of those days. I want to see this map be one of those, not just another where its stunning vistas and haunting chasms are tucked in a back corner away from all the pistol-straifing and 'hog-splattering out on a generic plain.

I completely admire and respect your philosophy, good sir, and I shall do my best to meet such lofty promises. I wholly accept that the current layout may not reach them perfectly, but I'm more willing to push this layout toward that goal than to make a new layout specifically designed to meet it. Irrational? Maybe. Emotionally sound? For me, yeah. This project has been a WIP since I heard about CE 5 years ago, and I want to do my original concept justice. That being said, I agree that generic plains are not all that interesting. My list certainly includes sprucing up said plains and giving players reasons to go exploring. For now I'm going to keep working and see how it evolves.


Edit: Also, behold the forerunner lambent mushroom of doom:
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6083/precipiceholotower2.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7523/precipiceholotower.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5183/precipiceholotower3.jpg

:downs: These will provide a little cover, and will be placed around the map where they make sense both aesthetically and strategically. For now, that means on this platform and inside the bases, which have very little cover at all. As Warsaw pointed out, this just underlines the need for more detail on the actual platforms. I.e. railings.

[klange]

Needs a big hologram display on the 'floating' platform.

[Siliconmaster]

Each of the tall rectangular circuits alcoves on the mushroom stalk will have a hologram. Which floating platform are you referring to? The hill small central one?

[Reaper Man]

Needs a big hologram display on the 'floating' platform.
Agreed. A big circular one, like you see in T&R, except forerunner :-3

Also, the rounded edged platform thing (that goes inwards) this:
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5183/precipiceholotower3.jpg
Looks weird with that plain forerunner texture on it. Put something different there.

[Siliconmaster]

Okay then. : ) Holo ring it is.

But some clarification on which platform would be nice.

Edit: This should make it a little easier:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7352/precipiceplatformnumber.jpg

1= Central, smaller platform. Also serves as the Hill.

2= Middle, "floating(?)" platform

3=Outer ring, connected to the control room wall

K, which one do you think needs the holo ring?

[Reaper Man]

Hmm, y'know, what about a big holographic planet like in the control room? or a Halo ring, hovering above the center? (this would look awesome if you could have it glowing and illuminating the central part of the room)

Otherwise, the inner ring? It'd probably look weird to have a huge outer ring -maybe for the outside, several large panels instead of a huge ring?

I wonder if the upper ring would look good with the control room glass texture?
http://cmt.h2vista.net/maps/downloads/singleplayer/mapshots/aotcr.jpg

Also, the lighting for the outside is so dull compared to the inside, maybe make it more interesting by having it at dusk and having long shadows (if you're bothered enough to do mental ray lightmaps?)

I'm really loving the look of this map!

[Siliconmaster]

I love your ideas, Reaper. The map actually is at dusk, but the radiosity hates me. :P The whole canyon should be in shadow, but the sun seems to be ignoring the canyon wall.

I've been contemplating mental ray lightmaps, and I think it will definitely help the look. At the moment however, I have no idea how to do them, so I was waiting until I have the map more finalized before looking into it. Assistance would be appreciated, or at least a link to a full tutorial.

[Reaper Man]

Well, if the map is at dusk, it needs a dusk sky, maybe like the one in No Remorse
http://hce.halomaps.org/images/users/lg/0E001F0A-FB83-4FE0-99837FFF73009233.JPG

As for lightmaps: a quick search found this http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13546

Iirc, there's an app that helps you do it (extracts scenery etc iirc), I forget what it's called though.

[Siliconmaster]

Aether, as I remember.

And for the record, the Timberland sky bitmaps, of which mine is derived, are labeled "timberland_dusk" :eng101:

But if you think a different sky would work better, so be it.

[Cortexian]

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7352/precipiceplatformnumber.jpg

Make this room fairly dark, and use a hologram planet/ring as mentioned to light it. Also, could you make the "middle" platform raised up instead of lowered down, then have the "central" platform level with "outer ring"? You could (possibly) then fill the gaps between the supports from the "middle" to "central" platforms with a dark tinted unbreakable glass. Then people on the "outer ring" can see who/what's on the central platform without being able to shoot them without going up to the "middle" ring (visa versa for people on the "central ring" looking out to the "outer ring").

Used your previous terminology so you know what I mean.

[Siliconmaster]

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7352/precipiceplatformnumber.jpg

Make this room fairly dark, and use a hologram planet/ring as mentioned to light it. Also, could you make the "middle" platform raised up instead of lowered down, then have the "central" platform level with "outer ring"?

The room is already fairly dark, though I could tweak that easily. As for the platform arrangement, I've actually tried rearranging them, and this setup seems to work the best. This way players can get up that ramp (in the lower right of that pic) from the floor, and the rings are situated so a player can jump from one down to the next until they reach the center. Seeing as I'm planning for this to be the KotH hub, I'd prefer that to a single raised "control" platform, even if that looks cooler. Placing the middle platform higher than the other two would make an odd sort of hump to get over, and I can't envision that making movement any easier. :ugh:

[hry]

Very nice map, too big but it look very well.

[n00b1n8R]

Some of the areas still look fucking huge (read: too long to walk through), and the outside terrain really needs spicing up (far too flat for starters, i'm sure you know this though). Put some nice kind of wrap-around texture on the central control thing (area 2), I instantly thought about putting a hologram (much like the actual control room) there too, put some kind of sunrays coming in from the roof or high vaulted windows or somethig. Also, take the banshee out of the pit and make it bottomless.

The sections you really worked on look amazing btw.

The shrooms look really odd though, I don't see the point (they remind me of something out of a water park actually).

[Inferno]

Put a longsword and a pelican in and it'll be perfect. :downs:

[Siliconmaster]

Put a longsword and a pelican in and it'll be perfect. :downs:

Har har. :haw: Seriously though, those vehicle bays were built for larger vehicles like dropships, but I decided to avoid going in that direction to prevent it from turning into another hugeass/coldsnap noob map. As a result there are these alrge cool-looking empty bays with a single banshee. Lol.


Some of the areas still look fucking huge (read: too long to walk through), and the outside terrain really needs spicing up (far too flat for starters, i'm sure you know this though). Put some nice kind of wrap-around texture on the central control thing (area 2), I instantly thought about putting a hologram (much like the actual control room) there too, put some kind of sunrays coming in from the roof or high vaulted windows or somethig. Also, take the banshee out of the pit and make it bottomless.

The sections you really worked on look amazing btw.

The shrooms look really odd though, I don't see the point (they remind me of something out of a water park actually).

The shrooms are supposed to look odd, but I actually based them slightly off some of the architecture from a30. On the exterior pipes, sometimes there are these mushroom-shaped end pieces, and I thought that would look cool as an interior tech object. I'm running radiosity on a few of them now, And I'll post some screenshots.

The pit was actually formed as a side effect of the banshee entrances, which are below and to the sides of the control room. They converge and come up in that pit. It turns out that banshee can actually come in that large front window, so I suppose it might be feasible to remove the lower entrances and make that a bottomless pit. I do like the banshee placement there- gives players more of an incentive to go to the control room.

And on that note, I'm guessing the large flat areas you were referring to are the upper fields and those long warthog tunnels. The tunnels are only accessable by walking past at least 2 warthog spawns in either direction. Therefore, it seems to me that the only way you could possibly get stuck walking is if you're a moron or if you fell out of a vehicle, and in that case it's actually not all that far until the next vehicle. If you're going on foot across the upper bridge, the pipes below it work as cover for foot traffic.

Edit: Shooms.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1233/shroomsw.jpg

:downs: I didn't have time to place those holograms before radiosity, and as a result the red isn't contrasted by the blue/white light of the holos. Normally I'd say the red light is too bright and washes everything out, but I'll wait until I see it with the holo lights to be sure.

[Sel]

Way too wide open, don't have all that open space unless you have something fill it with, or will have something to fill it with.

[Siliconmaster]

Mhmm. Which is what I'm working on now. : ) It's really smaller than it looks- the camera there is about 15 feet off the platform. Even so, I agree that it's too open, so I'm placing cool stuffz.

[Malloy]

I like the use of textures bro

[.Wolf™]

Yeah,thats one thing he is doing 100% awesome!

[Con]

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4733/precipiceredbasemirrore.jpg
that room looks really nice, but the exterior and that control room area aren't as nice to look at.

[UnevenElefant5]

Wow, looks really great.

[jngrow]

Don't get me wrong, looks great, but it reminds me more of various Star Wars games than forerunner/halo.

[Siliconmaster]

Don't get me wrong, looks great, but it reminds me more of various Star Wars games than forerunner/halo.

Star Wars? Heh. Love those games, but it never occurred to me that Precipice resembled them. :P How so?

______________________________________

New post: Finally got blue base looking like red base, but in return the map gets an exception on loading in Halo. The odd thing is that Sapien will open it and display the map fine. My guess is that it had something to do with the players, but I compiled the tutorial map to test the globals and that works fine. That means it's something in the bsp.

Might portalling errors cause this? :/

[jngrow]

Star Wars? Heh. Love those games, but it never occurred to me that Precipice resembled them. :P How so?

______________________________________

New post: Finally got blue base looking like red base, but in return the map gets an exception on loading in Halo. The odd thing is that Sapien will open it and display the map fine. My guess is that it had something to do with the players, but I compiled the tutorial map to test the globals and that works fine. That means it's something in the bsp.

Might portalling errors cause this? :/

Various ship interiors and such. Iunno, play a few rounds of MP on various Jedi Knight:Jedi Academy/Outcast interior maps. Still looks good though, I definitely would still enjoy playing/looking at this map as it is.

[Siliconmaster]

Okay, I found the issue. Apparently a portal section somewhere inside red base was referencing a non-existent weather block. Instant exception. I deleted the bsp and recompiled, resetting those settings. And now I have to place all the bsp stuff again. *sigh* Not to mention my portals are shot to hell because I was messing them so much. Lol.

[Bastinka]

Holy shit, it looks amazing. First thing I've seen in a while that looks good. I'm loving it.

Texture detail and placements in Sapien are astounding! Magnificent Job. It has some less amazing parts though, I'm sure they could use fixing up. Looks developer made, hell even better in some bits. Very good job nailing the Halo architecture!


10/10.

[Siliconmaster]

Update time. It turns out the portalling issues weren't all that was causing the exception. For some reason boulder_small was causing it. After 3 hours of slow trial and error I finally narrowed it down. Blue base is now as nice-looking as red base, and the teleporters are all fixed and usable.

The blue shrooms
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/12/bluebasenew1.jpg

Blue base
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9681/bluebasenew2.jpg

Note the lack of holograms on the mushrooms due to lack of time. Those shots are some of the only angles without any portal clipping. There will be some MAJOR portal construction and revision before release, whenever that might be.

I did conduct a short playtest with Bacon and ShadowSpartan a few minutes ago, and it was fun, albeit a little empty with only 3 people. For some reason the game was lagging, but I'm not sure if it was the map or my connection, since I was hosting. We'll have to figure that out later.

Edited first post.

[Inferno]

:golfclap:

Lookin' good. Just make sure you get the gameplay right.

[UnevenElefant5]

Looks really awesome.

[Siliconmaster]

:golfclap:

Lookin' good. Just make sure you get the gameplay right.

Indeed. One thing I noticed this time is that while the turrets rape the banshees, effectively defeating them anywhere near the base entrances, they also completely own players on foot. It might actually be a good thing, forcing players to find other routes around potential turret whores, but it might also prove a detriment to gameplay. I'll keep an eye on it as we test further.

[hry]

Wow this map is so fukin big.

[n00b1n8R]

Send me a beta, I wana check this beast out in person. :)

[hry]

Lol dude this map looks more like a SP level than MP.

[Inferno]

Silicon. You could just edit the damage to be super effective on vehicles and less effective on players. Or just put a sniper in to counter the turret.

[PlasbianX]

Silicon. You could just edit the damage to be super effective on vehicles and less effective on players. Or just put a sniper in to counter the turret.

The last build I tested had a sniper in a good position to take out the turrets. Only problem was it took a while to get to the sniper.

[Siliconmaster]

Technically going up the ladders to the banshee roosts can get a sniper in a very good position within 60 seconds. I hadn't thought about that until now.

[paladin]

Silicon. You could just edit the damage to be super effective on vehicles and less effective on players. Or just put a sniper in to counter the turret.


You could just edit the damage to be super effective on vehicles and less effective on players.


damage to be super effective on vehicles


http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/Pseudonamex2/SSBB_Supereffective.jpg

OMG

[Con]

Summarizing my conversation with silicon:

The angled tunnel can be shortened by elevating the control room and placing the cross-tunnel underneath the control room. The cross-tunnel can be integrated with the pit in the control room.
By moving the control room and associated tunnels closer to the top bridge, the redundant area in front and to the sides of the control room can be eliminated and create the opportunity for tunnel entrance/bridge integration...provided the bridge is centered like the other two bridges below it.
Centering the bridge with the other two creates another opportunity: a structure running up the wall of central pit that connects the 3 bridges together at their ends. This structure can extend beyond the top of the cliff and be worked into the bridge/entrance hybrid (which was made by moving the control room and bridge together).

These changes will help the flow greatly, simplify the layout, add interesting forerunner architecture, shorten travel time, and make the map feel more continuous rather than a bunch of areas separated by huge amounts of space.

The edited tunnels:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8725/editedmv.jpg

[Siliconmaster]

Quick update, so it doesn't look like this disappeared into the void:

I want to finish the map, I really do, but at the moment I'm still burned out from those last frantic weeks of summer. If anyone wants to assist (hey Con :P) it would be appreciated, but otherwise consider me on a TBD vacation from this project until I want to return to it out of fun, not necessity.

[AAA]

This IS one hell of a map. I'd hate to see this not get finished :(

[Siliconmaster]

This IS one hell of a map. I'd hate to see this not get finished :(

Thanks. I feel the same way, but if I opened up the max file right now I wouldn't even know where to start. I have to talk to Con about his proposed changes some more, and see where it goes.

Before the proposed changes, I had this much effort left: ----- and this much stuff left to do: ----

Now there's this much effort left: --
And this much left to do: ------------

:/

[AAA]

...........that's not very many dashes for effort. :suicide:

[Siliconmaster]

Eh- I sprinted too much while my flashlight was on. Just need to let it recharge.

Hope everyone gets that HL2 reference.

[Con]

We understand, IRL is the priority. PM me if you need help with something.

[Siliconmaster]

Ok, I had a long discussion with Con, and we came up with this list:

-replace 4 of the 5 banshees with wasps
-raise the control room to shorten the warthog tunnels
-fix the giant walls so they don't look ugly
-fix all other ugly areas (lol)
-use the terrain on the grassy areas to add cover, instead of using makeshift forerunner stuff

Other stuff TBD. And I have no idea how long that will take.

[Inferno]

-replace 4 of the 5 banshees with wasps



4 of the 5 banshees with wasps



banshees with wasps



wasps

:gonk:

[Ganon]

I hate this map from the size and bad vehicles. It definitely looks good though, but that unfortunately won't make your map good.

[Siliconmaster]

:gonk:

I take it you don't like wasps then. Con suggested them as a weaker air vehicle. The 5th banshee would remain in the control room as an additional incentive to travel through it.

[TeeKup]

I loved the wasps. D:

[Dwood]

I loved the wasps. D:

THIS HERE PERSON SPEEKS THE TROOF. HE DOES LOVE WASPS.

AND I DO TOO.

[Inferno]

There impossible to control and the 3 rocket shot is annoying as all fuck.
Fix the turning and get rid of the rocket spam and it will be fine.

[Siliconmaster]

K, for some reason the wasp tags are exceptioning, so I can't even get them ingame. Anyone have any insights?

Also Inferno, are hard-to-turn rocket machines worse than fast maneuverable fuelrod machines? :P At least they don't have constant plasma guns.

Edit: Also, thought more about stuff to do- new update list is as follows:

-replace 4 of the 5 banshees with wasps
-raise the control room to shorten the warthog tunnels
-fix the giant walls so they don't look ugly
-fix all other ugly areas (lol)
-use the terrain on the grassy areas to add cover, instead of using makeshift forerunner stuff
-remove vehicle bays and side teleporters (cave and control room), move cave and control room teles to the existing vehicle bay tele geometry. I.e. 3 teleporters instead of 5 per base
-add rockets to where the side teleporters were- vehicle heavy map needs more infantry support, plus reason to go to the sides

[Siliconmaster]

Double post for quick thread bump:

As mentioned above, the wasp tags are being uncooperative to say the least. The files found here (http://halo2.filefront.com/file/Wasp_Vehicle_tags%3B63945) cause an exception when placed in the map, as do ripped tags from Immure and Solitude. There is a cyborg.model_animations tag included in the rar, which I initially placed in the cyborg folder. Is there some trick to getting these to work? It's pretty frustrating.

[Higuy]

rip the ones from immure and use overwrite function

[Siliconmaster]

Tried it already. No luck. It's very bizarre. In the meanwhile I've started work on revamped banshee pads. They should look much more forerunner-like than the previous incarnations.

Edit: I should probably mention that the wasp will show up in sapien, but the game will exception on startup. Seeing as sapien doesn't display all of Halo's effects, I'm guessing maybe a lens flare, or a specific shader issue? Is there any way to track down an exception other than trial and error?

[sleepy1212]

post the debug sapien gave you...i helped someone get the wasp in-game a couple weeks ago..

there were issues with the pelican_engine.sound_looping which you can rip or simply copy+rename the banshee loop.

...and you should probably back up the original cyborg animation tag and replace it with the one that came with the wasp, no worries though, it comes with all the stock animations but also has the wasp ones added. this is why it shows up in sapien but not in-game...assuming you checked all the game boxes in sapien :P

[UnevenElefant5]

Yeah dude, just check debug.txt

[Sever]

You know, you could've avoided all of these problems stemming from the inclusion of the Wasp by taking our earlier suggestions about the map's design...

[Siliconmaster]

post the debug sapien gave you...i helped someone get the wasp in-game a couple weeks ago..

there were issues with the pelican_engine.sound_looping which you can rip or simply copy+rename the banshee loop.

...and you should probably back up the original cyborg animation tag and replace it with the one that came with the wasp, no worries though, it comes with all the stock animations but also has the wasp ones added. this is why it shows up in sapien but not in-game...assuming you checked all the game boxes in sapien :P

The sapien debug shows nothing, just the normal startup/shutdown text, but I'll try the looping noise. Thanks.


You know, you could've avoided all of these problems stemming from the inclusion of the Wasp by taking our earlier suggestions about the map's design...

The suggestions that involved scrapping the main part of the map? :P Thanks, but no thanks. I have been taking the other suggestions into account, and my conversations with Con reflect that. The wasps are simply one more experiment to see how they might effect gameplay.

[Reaper Man]

Awesome stuff man, can't wait to see some updates!

[Siliconmaster]

Deletion and repost to prevent DP:

I should have some new renders at the least up by tonight- I'm doing some more detail work on those pads- they're now a hundred times more detailed, with a locked doorway, etc. I'll see what you guys think of it when I post them.

And now the update, as promised:

I have remade the banshee/wasp/flyingthings pad so it looks substantially more interesting. As a reminder, here's the original, as it currently stands in the map:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3086/bansheepadold.jpg

It's basically a slightly elongated box with a pad attached and one light.

Here's the work I did today in my free time- full explanation after the pictures:

Pad view:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7883/bansheepad1.jpg

The ceiling detail:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2535/bansheepad2.jpg

Far shot:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/238/bansheepad3.jpg

The right doorway, which will be unlocked:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4681/bansheepad4.jpg

And the left doorway, which will either be open, or locked to prevent players from getting lost:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/3829/bansheepad5.jpg

As always those images are in high resolution, but in shot tags. If you want a bit of a closer look, click on them to enlarge.

My thought behind the new design is that a teleporter wouldn't just be hanging out on a pad, it would be in a back room similar to Gephyrophobia. Also, it being a whole facility and such, there would be other areas in the map players either can't get to, or are unused by gameplay. The second doorway is one such example, similar to the side doorways in 343 Guilty Spark. I may place a locked door there, and fill it with covenant crates or something similarly atmospheric. I can also use crates and lighting to direct players to the correct door pretty easily.

Where the pad meets the canyon wall it looks a little bland to me, but I'll think of something. The textures are semi-finalized, but I didn't put a huge amount of effort into them, so they can always be changed. The main light in the area will come from the recessed lights in the ceiling. With the ceiling design I was going for a bit of the Death Island/B30 look, with visual scaffolding and lattices in high spaces.

I'll update the OP while I'm at it.

[Cagerrin]

Long sides of the doors look very weird at that angle, should be 26.6 degrees rather than 45.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/prec_pfix_attempt.png

... or something like that, but not as simple. As it is that protrusion looks out of place.

[Siliconmaster]

Long sides of the doors look very weird at that angle, should be 26.6 degrees rather than 45.

... or something like that, but not as simple. As it is that protrusion looks out of place.

First of all, please clarify on the door comment. Second, is this better for the outcropping?

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2611/outcroppingrevisiondraf.jpg

If you like it I'll go further, but revising something that's already been chamfered is tedious as all hell. :P

[BobtheGreatII]

No... Still doesn't flow right, can you just give us a side view of it? We can give you a better shape.

[Siliconmaster]

Here's a side render- draw away! :)

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5271/outcroppingside.jpg

[Cagerrin]

Well, in regards to the doors, they should be like the one on the right(though my proportions on the lower parts are wrong because I'm lazy):

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/door_angles.png

The outcropping's worse this time, tbh. The center of it in particular looks strange, mostly because it isn't parallel to anything else.

posted while I was typing this up, good thing I refreshed.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/outcrop_angles.png

[Siliconmaster]

Well, in regards to the doors, they should be like the one on the right(though my proportions on the lower parts are wrong because I'm lazy):

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/door_angles.png

The outcropping's worse this time, tbh. The center of it in particular looks strange, mostly because it isn't parallel to anything else.

posted while I was typing this up, good thing I refreshed.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/outcrop_angles.png

Ok, that makes sense. I'll modify the outcropping more tomorrow- too tired tonight. However, the doors are Bungie's from H1. Maybe by H3 they were taller than wider, but all of the H1 forerunner doors are those on the left, not the right. In addition, I want to use the existing Bungie forerunner door devices. The left doorways fit those, not the right.

[Cagerrin]

Wierd, every Forerunner door I've fiddled with has been 26.6

But I've only started messing around with H1 singleplayer maps very recently, so that could be why. H2/3 doors look nicer tbh, because they aren't fat-looking.

[Siliconmaster]

Wierd, every Forerunner door I've fiddled with has been 26.6

But I've only started messing around with H1 singleplayer maps very recently, so that could be why. H2/3 doors look nicer tbh, because they aren't fat-looking.

Haha. I like both, personally. I'm so used to the H1 doors that the H2/3 doors look cool and different, rather than "better".

Yeah, the outcropping redo was definitely hasty, and I find that sometimes my second try is even more bizarre than the first. :P

Oh, and I did a revision, just because I'm stubborn and like to finish things before going to bed. :)

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/834/outcroppingrevision2.jpg

[n00b1n8R]

My thought behind the new design is that a teleporter wouldn't just be hanging out on a pad, it would be in a back room similar to Gephyrophobia. Also, it being a whole facility and such, there would be other areas in the map players either can't get to, or are unused by gameplay. The second doorway is one such example, similar to the side doorways in 343 Guilty Spark. I may place a locked door there, and fill it with covenant crates or something similarly atmospheric. I can also use crates and lighting to direct players to the correct door pretty easily.
Put a closed door there, they look more interesting IMO (and maybe a light glowing red over it and a light glowing green over the open one just to make it doubly obvious and draw their eye more?). Also, the landing pad needs some kind of support underneath it, it shouldn't just stick out like that with nothing holding its weight.


http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/834/outcroppingrevision2.jpg
Still needs work, the reflex angled section at the right angle (between the horizontal and vertical section) isn't steep enough and the intrusion underneath it shouldn't be there (refer to the suggestion up there ^).
Does look better though.

[Siliconmaster]

Put a closed door there, they look more interesting IMO (and maybe a light glowing red over it and a light glowing green over the open one just to make it doubly obvious and draw their eye more?). Also, the landing pad needs some kind of support underneath it, it shouldn't just stick out like that with nothing holding its weight.

Agreed on both accounts. I can't put a door in until I have the thing ingame, but that was my plan.


Still needs work, the reflex angled section at the right angle (between the horizontal and vertical section) isn't steep enough and the intrusion underneath it shouldn't be there (refer to the suggestion up there ^).
Does look better though.

Gotcha.

New render:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4717/outcroppingrevision3.jpg

Closer?

[Cagerrin]

Very much so. Is it going to be chamfered as well?

[Siliconmaster]

Of course. :P Had to get the shape right first.

Edit: I've been working hard on this all day, but it isn't quite ready to show yet. There are more details on the walls, correct uving, and a better design in general. Hopefully I'll have good renders up in a day or two, but no promises.
________________________________________________


Update: I now consider the new banshee/wasp platform complete, unless there are drastic complaints. Renders:

Overall view:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6976/bayfinished1.jpg

A different view of the platform supports:
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7801/supports.jpg

The platform gizmos, which have lights as well as a cool recessed area under glass. Thanks to Lightning for that idea:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5440/bayfinished2.jpg

New details on the wall, light fixtures, a border along the edges, etc:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4025/bayfinished3.jpg

The overall interior:
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2338/bayfinished4.jpg

The new hollow section, with glass showing:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9772/outcroppingglass.jpg

And without:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7127/outcroppingclear.jpg

I'm happy with this section, and I think with the doors in place and the correct indicator lights working it will work well for gameplay as well. The new hollow section in the outcropping will prevent players from camping on the other side.

[n00b1n8R]

So the glass is destructible?

It annoys me when you join a running server and the glass is out of sync but w/e. Looks really good now :)

(The boxes which I assume are lights over the doors don't look very forruner though)

[Dwood]

So the glass is destructible?

It annoys me when you join a running server and the glass is out of sync but w/e. Looks really good now :)


It's not like that's going to effect gameplay that much, if at all, unless we can walk through it when the glass is gone.

[Siliconmaster]

So the glass is destructible?

It annoys me when you join a running server and the glass is out of sync but w/e. Looks really good now :)

(The boxes which I assume are lights over the doors don't look very forruner though)

No, the glass will be unbreakable. Might as well keep all variables the same for everyone. You'll just be able to see through to the other side. I made that second render with transparent glass so you could see the inside better.

As for the light fixture, I admit they might not be the most brilliant thing I've ever made, but they work, and I think the light will look quite cool ingame, assuming it works right.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4640/lightfixture.jpg

[Con]

Those look good, especially that glass box thing.

[Cagerrin]

Generally, insets aren't quite that sharp.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/divider_inset.png
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/pad_support_top.png

Other than that I like it, even if it feels a bit boxy.

[Siliconmaster]

Generally, insets aren't quite that sharp.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/divider_inset.png
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/pad_support_top.png

Other than that I like it, even if it feels a bit boxy.

Happy? :P

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/461/nomorecorners.jpg

I hate redoing uvs. So obnoxious. At least it looks nice at the end.

Also, after some accidental modification, I decided it looked better to have a slight extrusion in the center. I also adjusted the glass section so the vehicles would spawn where players could enter easily. Before, if the banshee spawned there, the player would have issues getting in because the banshee would have been right up against the wall.

[BobtheGreatII]

Why are the things on the side holding up the platform, like... leaning out. Looks bad. Make them straight.

[Siliconmaster]

They are straight. The canyon wall is sloped. It is all relative, my dear Watson.

[BobtheGreatII]

Better be. <:maddowns:>

:downs: It's looking great btw.

[Siliconmaster]

Thanks. :D I'm working now to get all 4 platforms updated. Shouldn't take long, all I have to do is get them positioned and attached, then change 2 of them to have blue lights.

[n00b1n8R]

Did you make that light texture your self or what? I like it :)

[Siliconmaster]

No, I didn't. It's a cropped version of the light strips textures. There's a large yellow/orange light (depending on whether it's the blue or red lights) at the end of the strip texture which not a whole lot of people use. I was looking for a cool one, and decided to crop that. Glad you like it. : )

[Arteen]

Looks great!

[Bastinka]

Becoming quite a work of art.

[Siliconmaster]

Couldn't read map file './toolbeta.map'
culling uncompressed model vertices...done

WARNING: 26 clusters in structure_bsp levels\precipice\precipice have no background sound or sound environment.

culling uncompressed structure bsp vertices...done
culling uncompressed model animation data...done
building predicted resources for structures...done
structure bsp 'levels\precipice\precipice' is 19.34M
tag headers and names are 0.21M
streaming model vertex and index buffers...done
streaming tags...........................done
writing vertex and index buffers...done 7.81M
writing tags...done (2738 tags for 5.74M)
tags are 2.08M too large for structure bsps (5.74M+19.34M>23.00M).
### FAILED TO BUILD CACHE FILE.

Cache pack file bitmaps hits: 952 for 56.05M
Cache pack file bitmaps adds/misses: 98 for 17.68M
Cache pack file sounds hits: 672 for 10.70M
Cache pack file sounds adds/misses: 28 for 2.15M
Cache pack file loc hits: 104 for 0.22M
Cache pack file loc adds/misses: 0 for 0.00M
Well then. It appears that the map does not want to compile. Am I just screwed, or is there some way around it?

Edit: Even toolio, the hacked tool doesn't compile it. Lol.

[StankBacon]

it appears you have too many tags.

[Siliconmaster]

Ah, you're indeed right. I thought it was the structure itself, but it's the tags. I'll go in and delete any I'm not using.

Damn, I can get it to within 1.57 Mb by deleting unused tags, but the structure bsp is almost 20 mb by itself. Wait a sec, aren't there maps much larger than this? Like the SP maps? How can they compile?

[Higuy]

Ah, you're indeed right. I thought it was the structure itself, but it's the tags. I'll go in and delete any I'm not using.

Damn, I can get it to within 1.57 Mb by deleting unused tags, but the structure bsp is almost 20 mb by itself. Wait a sec, aren't there maps much larger than this? Like the SP maps? How can they compile?
Ask masterz for that one tool that compiles more then than that. or something

[Siliconmaster]

It compiles with that, but still crashes. Isn't it a hard-coded limit?

It's just frustrating to have a limit on the structure. It either means I have to do a LOT of optimizing, which wouldn't be such a bad idea anyway, or I can't make everything that detailed.

[Inferno]

If you need to reduce tag space talk to me.

[Dwood]

If you need to reduce tag space talk to me.

Yeah man I have no idea how you got YoYoV2 to compile at all. That map's got more tags than CMT SPv2.

[Siliconmaster]

Well, since even with all tags deleted off the map, the file is still .44 Mb too large, I can only take sapien screenshots.

The pads ingame, with banshees since the wasps are still being problematic:

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8365/padlighting.jpg

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6844/padlighting2.jpg

I guess I'm going to have to do some major optimizing before I continue anything else. Drat.

[Dwood]

Message Inferno.

[Siliconmaster]

Already did. He led me through the globals.globals routine, but it only cut down a few decimal points. I think the only way I can continue is by getting rid of useless faces. Unfortunately, that's harder than just deleting some tags.

[Dwood]

Already did. He led me through the globals.globals routine, but it only cut down a few decimal points. I think the only way I can continue is by getting rid of useless faces. Unfortunately, that's harder than just deleting some tags.

Have you tried to use OS_Tool to compile?

[ThePlague]

That wall looks extremely bland in the second sapien picture. How big is it?

[Siliconmaster]

That wall looks extremely bland in the second sapien picture. How big is it?

I refer you to a picture in the OP:
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9080/precipiceroutesback.jpg

See that gargantuan diagonal canyon wall? Yeah. It's about... 3000 feet 19409.8 3ds units tall. Well aware that it needs to be interestingified, but it's so huge that it will be a project in itself.

[Advancebo]

It depends how many polys it is.

[Siliconmaster]

The map, or the wall? There are just a lot of places that could use optimizing.

[sleepy1212]

I think he meant the whole map....Still depends on how many faces, i have maps that are well over 50,000 and run fine because of portals, i have another with just over 20,000 that made sapien scream for all the scenery but it works.

[Dwood]

Your map is but .16 megs too big with all the vehicles removed.

I have no idea what the heck's wrong with 'dis. Especially when YoYoRastV2 is over 3 times the size.

[Dwood]

SM's been having problems with the # of tri's in the map.... (# of Tris >75,000)

He's currently optimizing so no update outside of what I've been doing..

[Siliconmaster]

The triangle count has been an issue from the beginning, a remnant of my '05 tessellation mapping days. Ew. I've been keeping an eye on the problem areas, basically hoping I wouldn't have to deal with it. Apparently it's finally caught up with me.

To illustrate:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6631/wireframeofdoom2circled.jpg

And a close-up on the lower land bridge, one particular offender:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3173/lolwireframe.jpg

I'm swamped with homework this week, but hopefully I can get on that optimization fairly soon. Also, thanks Podacity for the mention. Even if you guys haven't paid a whole lot of close attention to the map, it was cool to see it recognized. : )

[Siliconmaster]

Time for double post, bump, and update all in one go! Though not much of an update, I'm sorry to say. College and video projects have begun to eat my life. To illustrate, last Friday I spent 11 hours filming- 4:30pm to 3:30am. Dwood seems interested in helping to optimize the map, which would be a big help for me.

And yes, I know I seemed dead. I promise RaperReaperMan didn't kill me. I'm still alive and well, just busy.

[Maniac]

Polygon cruncher does a decent job of optimizing, you may wanna look at that.
You will have a lot of stuff still to do manually, but it could be a big time saver.

[Siliconmaster]

Well, here I am again, now back at school. I've started doing some optimization on those problem spots- polygon cruncher does indeed help a lot, thanks Maniac. I hope I can get this thing fixed up and working, so I can actually do something with it. Consider it a WIP with semi-low priority compared to my film classes. If anyone else wants to help with the optimization/modeling, just PM me- I'd appreciate the assistance.

Edit: The good news is, the map compiles without errors. The bad news is that it also exceptions upon load in CE. I already tried erasing the bsp and recompiling from scratch to clear any old weather palettes (the solution last time this happened), and I erased all tags from a version and tried compiling that. Same result. It has to be something that only loads in the full game, since it appears in sapien just fine. Maybe something to do with the portalling?

[Dwood]

Well, here I am again, now back at school. I've started doing some optimization on those problem spots- polygon cruncher does indeed help a lot, thanks Maniac. I hope I can get this thing fixed up and working, so I can actually do something with it. Consider it a WIP with semi-low priority compared to my film classes. If anyone else wants to help with the optimization/modeling, just PM me- I'd appreciate the assistance.

Edit: The good news is, the map compiles without errors. The bad news is that it also exceptions upon load in CE. I already tried erasing the bsp and recompiling from scratch to clear any old weather palettes (the solution last time this happened), and I erased all tags from a version and tried compiling that. Same result. It has to be something that only loads in the full game, since it appears in sapien just fine. Maybe something to do with the portalling?

It's not the poly count? Perhaps it's the bitmaps?

[Siliconmaster]

Well, this is interesting. I compiled the tutorial map to double check my globals, and that crashed too. Looks like sometime in the past month or to something went weird in the globals (this is assuming that's the only stuff that carries over from one map to the next).

Edit: Or weapons. Those don't spawn in sapien either, so they would only crash the full game. Is there a way to look at what causes an exception in the game? Or only in sapien? I vaguely remember Korn mentioning something about that a long while back.

Edit edit: Yep, it was the globals- tutorial now compiles fine. Checking Precipice.

[Dwood]

If that works fine let's rig it with os-postprocessing.

[Siliconmaster]

The map loads. Yay. Now to get a lightmap in there so I can see what I'm doing. As for the OS stuff, wouldn't it make sense for me to finish working with the tools I understand, then add that stuff at the end?

Edit: Well, wouldn't you know- the old .bsp file had issues too. I switched it back in when I realized it was the globals with issues, and the map crashed again. Two problems at once. Jeez. Well, at least it's fixed now.

Edit edit: Gyaa. It worked until I added a lightmap, then it crashed again. Maybe it is a bitmap or something, but sapien works fine, and that loads all the bitmaps. Maybe a shader effect then. If there is a way to examine the exception reports, that would be extremely helpful.

[Llama Juice]

Isn't there a crashlog type thing?... I wanna say debug.txt in your CE root... but Iunno it's been forever.

[Siliconmaster]

After hours of painful trial and error, I have decided that the most likely issue is tagspace. I was able to track the problem down by deleting groups one by one, but then it would change if I kept something else in. After a while I decided it was either trying to drive me insane, or it was random because it wasn't the particular thing causing a problem, but how many things were in it at once. I checked the tool log, and with all the tags in the map, it's .01Mb from the tag limit. It works fine when it has .55Mb of space left. I wonder if it needs breathing room to function.

Assuming this assumption is correct, I'm going to do more optimization- that should cut down on overall size, and if I'm right, I'll be able to compile with all the tags included at once. If I'm wrong, I'll be even more confused and frustrated than I am right now.

[Higuy]

You are using the default tag set, right?

[Dwood]

Sorry that I wound up being little/no help :(

[Siliconmaster]

You are using the default tag set, right?

Mostly. I have some holograms from the campaigns, and I've tweaked some stuff, but overall it's normal. It shouldn't really make a difference.


Sorry that I wound up being little/no help :(

Don't worry about it. I'm always open to help, but at least if I screw something up I can then spend hours trying to figure out what I did. :P Would be a little harder swapping files back and forth. More variables.

EDIT:
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3065/precipicevictory.jpg

PRECIPICE LIVES. Cut out 3,000 faces from the Control Room, and although the texturing is now gone to hell, the map compiles and loads with all tags included. Tool reported .70Mb of space for breathing room. Took fucking long enough. Now of course there's a shit ton of stuff to do, especially since if you look in the opposite direction it looks like this:

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7263/precipicevictoryreverse.jpg

There is no spoonwall. I decided to delete it all and work from scratch. It had major issues anyway. I may use parts of the old model, but for now that's just a large skybox wall.

[Reaper Man]

Looking good!

[hry]

Very nice c;

[Dwood]

Are you doing what I suggested like 3 months ago over xfire?

[Siliconmaster]

Are you doing what I suggested like 3 months ago over xfire?

Honestly, I can't remember what your suggestion was. :P Remind me?

[Dwood]

Honestly, I can't remember what your suggestion was. :P Remind me?

To remove like 3 layers of the walls lol b/c that area's huge down there.

[Siliconmaster]

Oh, the scenery interlocks behind the giant wall? Well, for the moment that doesn't matter at all, because none of that exists any more. :downs:

Edit: Hey look, some overnight lightmaps:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9974/precipicevictorylightma.jpg

[Hunter]

Needs more smexy Falcon :P (No, not just because it is in the next game I want to copy, but because it looks sexy :P )

Looks awesome :)

[Cagerrin]

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/precipice_wtf.png

misaligned stuff :saddowns:

[Siliconmaster]

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TalonX/randomstuff/precipice_wtf.png

misaligned stuff :saddowns:

The canyon wall is slanted- the outside bay border matches that, but everything else is vertical. It makes sense if you're moving around in the map, even if it looks odd in screenshots.

Edit: Here's a side view of the bay, both textured and wireframe:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6111/precipicebayside.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2775/precipicebaysidewire.jpg

As you can see, everything except right where the canyon wall meets the bay is perfectly vertical. The only way not to have that border match the wall would be to extend the ceiling of the bay out a little, which would look strange and ugly.

[Cagerrin]

Okay, that makes sense. 's just sort of wtf when I can only see a bit of the wall.

Why would the wall be slanted, anyways?

[Siliconmaster]

The whole canyon is wider at the top and narrower at the bottom. Makes sense for structural purposes- either that or some sort of empire-state-building-esque steppe architecture. It's also a left-over from the original '05 design that I really don't have the time or effort to change. :P Every doorway on the map aligns with it, and even though it would be easier to make new doors if I fixed them all, that would take forever.

Oh, and if you didn't see, I updated the post above with a better view of the wall.

[Con]

Lookin good :)

[Siliconmaster]

New quick update:

I've been fighting a slow battle with the polygons, but now I know the size limits, so I can work without worrying about something random going wrong. It also turns out I don't need the additional portalling, and now you can see most of the map without portal errors.

At the moment I can show off some work on the control room I did.

The back wall now has large glass-and-circuit alcoves, which are relatively low-poly, but at least give the player something to look at instead of the large blank walls from before.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6035/precipicecontrolroomnew.jpg

I've also done some structure and texturing work on the floor, with the new glass/grate/symbol sections and the modified ramp.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6035/precipicecontrolroomnew.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6035/precipicecontrolroomnew.jpg

It's sort of hard to see with the current lighting, but the ramp now has tile borders, and the old flared-out base is gone. The original structure is still a little hard to pass off as forerunner, but with the new additions it's a lot better looking.

[ThePlague]

It's looking awesome.

[Inferno]

I want to play this.

[Lateksi]

Starship Enterprise? Nah seriously the ramp looks good and original forerunner :)

[bobsam]

Nice work. :D

[PopeAK49]

Good work! you're improving.

[Siliconmaster]

Thanks for the positive feedback. Now to show off the stuff I'm really happy with. I won't know how it really looks until I see it lit in game, so I fully expect some comments revolving around "fix the empty spaces." If all goes well, the lighting will fix that, but if not, I'll change things once I can see how it looks.

First, the old flag room:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5345/precipiceflagroomold1.jpg

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5641/precipiceflagroomold2.jpg

Very boring, ugly walls, and bizarre lumpy architecture. This was one of the last remaining areas from the original design.

And now, the new WIP flag rooms:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9751/precipiceflagroom4.jpg

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5787/precipiceflagroom5.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3856/precipiceflagroom6.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4578/precipiceflagroom7.jpg

It's more of a small cathedral now, complete with a forerunner-esque chandelier. Similar to the large wall in the bases, this will be lit with a lot of recessed and soft lighting, and that will make the view look considerably cooler. The blank area above the chandelier, near where the well emerges, was going to be another recessed lighting area, but I decided to hold off until I could see it ingame. I may be able to save the polygons for elsewhere, seeing as I already blew the bsp limit to hell already with this addition.

Also: I would be eternally grateful if someone with better organic modeling skills than myself could assist with redoing the interior base rock walls, as well as the underground tunnels. It's not a huge task, and it would be fairly low poly, but I'm not that adept at organics, and I don't have the time to practice enough.

[sleepy1212]

that's a nice improvement minus the gross flag ramp.

even if you made it an octagon it would look better and save you a few polies vs the current one.

[Siliconmaster]

that's a nice improvement minus the gross flag ramp.

even if you made it an octagon it would look better and save you a few polies vs the current one.


Haha- I was just looking at that a second ago and thinking "wow, that is ugly."

Technically the octagon (including ramps) would add 8 triangles compared to the current one. However, even just retexturing this one would help a lot, or maybe removing two of the ramps to make it unidirectional.

[sleepy1212]

Technically the octagon (including ramps) would add 8 triangles compared to the current one.

i meant like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/sleepy1212/precipiceflagroomold1.jpg

considering the rest of the room though i'm sure you can come up with a better ramp than that

[Siliconmaster]

i meant like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/sleepy1212/precipiceflagroomold1.jpg

considering the rest of the room though i'm sure you can come up with a better ramp than that

Oh, I see what you were saying. Yeah, I'll mess with the ramp, see if I can't get it looking better.

[Higuy]

The organics would be extremely easy if you just use the cut tool and make lots of cuts, weld and collapse unneeded verts, and then just move the verts you then created to how/where you want. Just make it kinda rugged and rough, becuase thats how cliffs are. I always see people making smooth cliffs, which really looks bad and unnatural when compared to regular, rough cliffs. ( I for one use to be one of these people until I learned that method from a friend)

[Siliconmaster]

I ran lightmaps last night, then adjusted some stuff and ran them again. Still not quite perfect, but pretty close to what I had envisioned.

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5476/precipiceflagroom12.jpg

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/2135/precipiceflagroom9.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9390/precipiceflagroom10.jpg

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1509/precipiceflagroom11.jpg

'Tis all pretty now. ^_^

[Higuy]

Looking nice.. Good work of the strip textures and uving them, thats one of the things I always have a difficult time at when uving structures.

I'm liking the lightmaps but I think they could over all be a bit better. Add some floating planes in front of the generator and name the material this:

c10light_inv_10paleblue!

It's a lighter blue then what you now and have a different intensity. Adding the floating planes with different intensity helps bring out lightmaps alot more. It's just one of those final touch's, but it works and looks nice (they are invisible too). Not sure if your doing this already or not though. You may also want to think about doing the same thing were that grayish part is, (on the first picture) on the bottom part of the wall under I guess what is a light. Just have another invisible light thats diagonal and faces the wall.

[Siliconmaster]

Looking nice.. Good work of the strip textures and uving them, thats one of the things I always have a difficult time at when uving structures.

I'm liking the lightmaps but I think they could over all be a bit better. Add some floating planes in front of the generator and name the material this:

c10light_inv_10paleblue!

It's a lighter blue then what you now and have a different intensity. Adding the floating planes with different intensity helps bring out lightmaps alot more. It's just one of those final touch's, but it works and looks nice (they are invisible too). Not sure if your doing this already or not though. You may also want to think about doing the same thing were that grayish part is, (on the first picture) on the bottom part of the wall under I guess what is a light. Just have another invisible light thats diagonal and faces the wall.

Yeah, I've been using those a lot- this was only the second version of lighting in this area, so I will probably add more of those in at varying intensities when I get a chance.

Update:
I've put finalizing the flag room lightmaps on hold because they were being frustrating, and I'd rather just wait until the end to fix any lighting issues. And yes, I just said "the end", because the end might actually be in sight. Over the past few days I've sat down and changed (hopefully) the last huge issues with the map. Now, while visuals might need more work, the basic gameplay structure should be improved, enough to warrent a real playtest.

A list of new stuff and changes:

Moved the control room upward vertically about 500 feet, and that entire end of the map forward so it's much closer to the rest of the map. This will drastically reduce tunnel traveling times, as well as shrink the overall play area. Now, someone in the control room can pretty easily hit players on the closest banshee pads, which were too far away before. The control room windows now have a purpose. :downs:

The old version:
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/771/precipicemodcomp1.jpg

The new version:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2301/precipicemodcomp2.jpg

The control room is now a looming presence when players exit the bases:
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/552/precipicemodcomp6.jpg

Inside the control room, I have removed the lower banshee exits. They were ugly, useless, and causing portalling issues, so they're gone. There's just a placeholder wall sitting where the tunnel used to be while I decide what to do with the banshee pit.
The now-lonesome banshee. Ignore the sniper rifle- it's spawning in the old spot from before the move.
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1571/precipicemodcomp3.jpg

The map also now has forerunner doors wherever they make sense- mainly the banshee pads and the bases. Nowhere that would impede line of sight. I really like how they look in place.
The base doors:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2554/precipicemodcomp5.jpg

The banshee pad. The second room now serves as a nice locked door- nothing like a few of those to make the player feel like there's stuff beyond what they see. There's also a little surprise that I won't spoil until people see it in game.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4928/precipicemodcomp4.jpg

The only big gameplay stuff left to fix is stuff like working on cover for the upper fields, and making sure the balance is right. Visually, I need to redo both the wall behind the control room and the wall on the opposite side of the canyon. The canyon walls themselves, as always, should be improved, but are on the "figure it out later" list.

[ghk]

looks verry nice....cant wait to play :-)

[Con]

I love the look of the control room from below.

[Dwood]

Verrry nice. You should get someone to fix up your lightmaps now that Firescythe has made it possible to make custom ones.

[Siliconmaster]

Verrry nice. You should get someone to fix up your lightmaps now that Firescythe has made it possible to make custom ones.


His tutorial suggests to wait until the very last build to start messing with the custom lightmaps. That's one of the reasons I'm waiting to mess with the flag rooms more- it won't matter once I get to that stage. I definitely want to take advantage of Aether and the custom lightmap uvs, anything to make it look better.

[Hunter]

Looks nice, is there any way to stop the fog being a cunt and making random objects - usually scenery - bright/stand out through it? If you get what I mean (Pic 1 and 2)

[Siliconmaster]

Looks nice, is there any way to stop the fog being a cunt and making random objects - usually scenery - bright/stand out through it? If you get what I mean (Pic 1 and 2)

As far as I know you can't change how the fog reacts sometimes with scenery. However, the bright areas near the banshee bay in those pics are due to portalling errors, not the fog issue, thankfully. When the serious portalling work gets done that should all be fixed.

[Hunter]

Cool. And @Fog, your a bitch. :)

[chrisk123999]

I think there is a checkbox somewhere in the shader tag or the scenery tag that fixes the fog problem.

[Siliconmaster]

I think there is a checkbox somewhere in the shader tag or the scenery tag that fixes the fog problem.


Hmm- there must be, because the trees are scenery, and they don't have that issue. If you add other custom scenery down in the real fog, it does turn white. Interesting.

Edit:

Just hosted an hour-long playtest with Klange, ShadowSpartan, Reaper, myself, and a local friend. We started with two FFA slayer games, which went pretty darn well. The banshees are what they always are, but were significantly less whoreable this time due to increased banshee user damage, the base turrets, and a wider selection of rocket launchers and other weapons. Could still be balanced a little, but a lot better than last time. Then we played a 2v2 game of CTF, which should have been obscenely retarded on a map this large, but actually played quite well. It reminded me a lot of the H3 action sack gametype "Shotty CTF" due to the H1 rule of "must have flag at base to score". There was a lot of hiding with the flag while the other teammate went to try to get our own flag back. There was even one memorable instance where Adam was hiding in our base with the flag, and Reaper tossed grenades down the well and killed him. That was how I had planned that feature years ago, but to have it work before my eyes was hilarious and rewarding.

List of tester suggestions and changes:
-Use the CMT spartan laser to balance the banshees. I'm thinking replace the sniper in the control room with the Splaser. This would make that room a lot more important, and it would help control the banshee whoring.

-Make the base turrets movable, like the SP versions, so they can be knocked off the platforms.

-Make labels or logos so players know which teleporter goes where. This only really matters for the two teleporters near the front of the bases- they're symmeterical, so depending on which base you're in you go to different places on the right or the left. Got really confusing in this playtest for me at least, and I made the dang thing.

-Fix the bizarre flag-vehicle glitch. For some reason, if you have the flag, and you get in a vehicle, instead of disappearing so you can fire a weapon, etc. it sticks out of your body at odd angles, and if you so much as tap the trigger, you drop it. ShadowSpartan became quite frustrated with this one, and I agree it's really weird. Anyone know why this might be happening?

Overall, I'm extremely happy with how this test went, and I can now move on to fixing little things- the large play area has been broadly finished. That being said, stuff will definitely change- more cover, better terrain, etc.

[Reaper Man]

The portals made the map so confusing, random sections of geometry would disappear. Otherwise the map played fairly well, save my banshee whoring.

[Siliconmaster]

The portals made the map so confusing, random sections of geometry would disappear. Otherwise the map played fairly well, save my banshee whoring.

Yeah, as I mentioned in game, blame blue base. Halo seems to flip a coin when it comes to registering exact portals. Last build, red base wasn't portalled and blue base was fine. This time, red base worked, but blue base didn't. As a result, if you looked in the direction of blue base at any time, in all likelihood half the map would disappear. This was extremely noticeable when topside red base. I'll make sure to at the very least get those two exact portal sections working for next time.


Edit:

Hey look, some WIP wall pics. I already like this one far better than the old lolmassive one. Plus this one looks cooler.

Overview
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4539/precipicewallport6.jpg

The energy port (more info on this at some point)
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6596/precipicewallport7.jpg

Middle Detail
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5140/precipicewallport8.jpg

Topside
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4842/precipicewallport9.jpg

[ghk]

nice.....i like all the detail on that center section,but now it makes the big grey walls on either side look really bland

[Siliconmaster]

Heh- yeah, well, I suppose that was unavoidable. But better to have at least one wall look nice than to have all of them looking shitty. Wish I had more polies to work with- damn Halo 1's engine.

[BobtheGreatII]

I guess my question is why do you have the big gray walls? Why not make them cliffs. Would look much better.

[Siliconmaster]

I guess my question is why do you have the big gray walls? Why not make them cliffs. Would look much better.

Because the idea was that the whole thing is artificial. Also, at the moment I barely have enough poly structure space to fix up the areas that need it for gameplay, let alone completely redesigning an area that spans 3/4 of the map. I do agree it looks plain, but that's one of the last things I'm going to address. Maybe some pipes or similar tech objects to break up the surface. Not sure yet. It's a frustrating dilemma.

[Dwood]

Use bump maps and texshurs to make it look purty.

[Siliconmaster]

The idea of using shaders to make larger flat areas look nicer is definitely appealing. I'll look into it once the bsp itself is finished. I've thrown some new stuff into the map, and I have some debug-lightmapped screenshots to prove it:

The new wall in action:
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/766/precipiceupdated1.jpg

From the control room window...
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1300/precipiceupdated3.jpg

...and from the land bridge. I personally love this pic.
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5299/precipiceupdated2.jpg

New teleporter labels, matching Bungie's death island banshee and turret icons:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1637/precipiceupdated5.jpg

And the new control room banshee pit, which actually lives up to its name now. Don't fall.
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2500/precipiceupdated4.jpg

And thus progress. :D

[n00b1n8R]

...and from the land bridge. I personally love this pic.
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5299/precipiceupdated2.jpg
The fog seems a bit heavy and you can't really see the lights coming from the strips (I assume there's lights there), perhaps turn it down a bit?

Looking really good otherwise :)

[DarkHalo003]

I'm liking the interior. I find the exterior wall a bit vacant though, unless you plan to fill it up later. However, the fog looks great with the exterior, very mysterious!

[Siliconmaster]

The fog density will definitely be played with- I want it to be sort of hard to see the area down there, but not too dense. Part of the problem is that sapien is still rendering sunlight all the way down the canyon wall- as a result the contrast of those lights is somewhat muted. The right side of the picture is more like what it would look like with better lightmaps. Either way, I'll make it so you can see the lights. As for the canyon wall, I know it's plain- the concept of using shaders to make it more interesting is high on the list. No idea how to implement it quite yet though.

[sleepy1212]

yea those strip lights don't like to work when there's a lot of other light around....or fog. Been trying to find a workaround this myself. no luck yet.

[Siliconmaster]

I'll just leave this here.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3613/precipiceoo.jpg

[BobtheGreatII]

One giant beam coming out would be sort of cool. With rings surrounding it... I dunno. Guess that's what my imagination went to.

[EX12693]

Why is it pink? I do not like pink forerunner stuff.



Do not like the pink.

[Siliconmaster]

Red base is red. Blue base is blue. Control room is purple. Been the color scheme the whole time. Most forerunner stuff is blue, but I didn't want players to confuse the control room with blue base. Moving forward with that color scheme, I made the beam purple. However, light purple looks like pink. I've darkened the beam bitmap as much as I can, but idk how else to change it. The flare is purple on the outside, but it fades to white, and looks pink. The red flames are left over from the infinity red beam, but I sort of like them.

[POQPrince]

Looking fantastic!

[EX12693]

Meh. Purple is too... non-forerunner, but whatever. Go for it.

[Lateksi]

Purple is cool. But green is too.

[sleepy1212]

green
ftw

[Siliconmaster]

For forerunner stuff, green works. However, maybe I'm just too much of a creative arts major, but red and green clash like hell, and due to the blending between the three colors, the green and blue would look nice together, but the red and green would look hideous. Take for example that long hallway in the tunnels where you can see all 3 color bands. Right now they blend logically. But green- *shudder*

[EX12693]

Yellow. A dull or pale yellow. Goes with red a much as blue.

Hell, why not white?

[Siliconmaster]

White generally doesn't show up that often in forerunner stuff- if it does, it's on a blue texture. On Bungie's shaders, blue and yellow are "blue base" colors, and red and orange are "red base colors". Gephyrophobia actually has a whole set of purple bitmaps made and ready to go, which is what I've been using. This would suggest that at least Gearbox liked purple. :downs: I'm also changing the light emitted from the geph_purple lights to match the inv_purple shader that can be seen in the warthog tunnels. The inv_purple shader is much darker, more of a violet than a pinkish-purple. I really like the darker color, and already the banshee pit in the control room looks gorgeous, yet simple. Give me some more time to finish the bsp- then we can argue more about colors.

[EX12693]

Ah okay. Thats good.

[Siliconmaster]

It's 5:30am EST, and time for a quick update. Though the thread has been quiet for a while, I can assure you all that the map is making considerable headway. Optimization continues, uv errors are being fixed, and the last major strides are underway. I've begun in-depth portalling, and the topside terrain is in its final tweaking stages. I won't be posting any new screenshots until I have something screenshot-worthy, but I'm fairly certain that I'll be able to show off some goodies relatively soon. Can't say much more than that since I myself don't know how things are going to turn out. Stay tuned.

[Siliconmaster]

Frustrated double post after a full day of trying to set up Aether lightmaps. Light emitting materials: biggest headache of all time. I'm going to ignore this issue until I have everything else about the map done. Otherwise it's going to bug the hell out of me. If someone else wants to come along and help me set up a render situation simulating outside light and all the indoor stuff, please feel free. It really comes down to the materials and the render setup, and the sunlight system.

[Higuy]

You shouldn't be doing anything with aether until the maps done. To be honest I really don't see the need it in much, considering Halo can make perfectly fine lightmaps on its own.

[n00b1n8R]

High-res light maps always look weird in a low-res game like Halo.

[Con]

this is true

[Siliconmaster]

You shouldn't be doing anything with aether until the maps done. To be honest I really don't see the need it in much, considering Halo can make perfectly fine lightmaps on its own.

I knew I needed to finish everything else first, but I had some free time and wanted to mess around with it and at least get a lot of the stuff set up, so if I wanted to use it later I wouldn't have to do all the work then.

As for my reasons for wanting to use advanced lightmaps, Halo isn't rendering the canyon correctly- sunlight goes all the way to the bottom, where it should stop as soon as the sun dips below the rim. Using a more accurate renderer would fix this. Also, the map takes 7-8 hours to do a quality 0 lightmap render in tool, and I don't even want to know how long a quality 1 would take. I'll try it, of course, when the time comes, but it seems to me that even if I keep the resolutions the same, and just overwrite Halo's own bitmaps, I'd have an easier and faster time tweaking it in max.

[Dwood]

You could probably render the same quality of max lightmaps in 5 minutes as tool makes in 4 hrs.

[Siliconmaster]

You could probably render the same quality of max lightmaps in 5 minutes as tool makes in 4 hrs.

My thoughts exactly.

Update:

Time for a screenshot or two. Thanks to Con for the sky. <3

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5371/precipicenewsky1.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6057/precipicenewsky2.jpg

Still needs some background distant thunder sounds to match the lightning flashes in the sky, which are hard to show off in stills.

[paladin]

Looking good

[Con]

I thought this was a pretty cool view...

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9067/2screenshot00.jpg

[Lateksi]

Wat wat motion blur? Looking really good.

[flibitijibibo]

Wat wat motion blur? Looking really good.

I am also interested in that first part. Is that motion blur for srs?

[Siliconmaster]

I talked to Con. He says it's Firescythe's OS plugin. Of which I am redownloading the newest version, because I want that moblur. :P

[Inferno]

Really nice map. I think the lighting should be a little more yellowish.

[Lateksi]

I think it's fine as it is. If it's more yellow it's like too many other outdoor map.

[Con]

Really nice map. I think the lighting should be a little more yellowish.
I was going for an eerie look, something out of the ordinary. That and the little flood hints around the map help create the atmosphere.

[Inferno]

I talked to SM on xfire. I was just noting that the sky looked brighter than the lightmaps. He said it looks normal it was just he angle of the screenshots.

[Dwood]

Ohay sum1 check hbo.

[ghk]

i like the "errie sky"....along with the thunder and lightning ,it should be pretty cool

[Siliconmaster]

Ohay sum1 check hbo.

Little late to the party- there have been at least 15 people viewing the thread at any given time since noon. :P Who submitted the news post, btw? I'm fine with the publicity, but I'm curious.


i like the "errie sky"....along with the thunder and lightning ,it should be pretty cool

Glad you like it. I'm currently working on the background sound palette. I figured out how to do most of the stuff I needed- now it's a matter of tweaking settings.

[DarkHalo003]

Wow Silicon, this is great! It's almost inspirational and it gives me an idea for my own MP map!

[Higuy]

Wow, awesome sky con. I think the lighting fits, like an overcast with some light spots coming out the clouds. Good job!

[Warsaw]

I talked to Con. He says it's Firescythe's OS plugin. Of which I am redownloading the newest version, because I want that moblur. :P

I told you OS was cool. :p

Lookin' good, like the new sky.

[Mass]

I fucking love the color of the sky, it is unique, interesting, and the green hints at a coming storm...

[Inferno]

I want to play this when you guys beta next. Make sure you bug me on xfire SM. :downs:

[Siliconmaster]

Just had a fairly entertaining playtest, with myself, Con, ShadowSpartan, and CodeBrain. Sadly, Inferno and Pyong were busy with H2v stuff, Llama couldn't join because of tech issues, and others were just busy at the time. Either way, slayer proved a bit too chaotic with just 4 people, and ctf was definitely fun, if ridiculous.

New list of changes:
-Make wind and rain noises louder up top
-Fix the stupid flag animations- anyone have any idea about this one? (Flag remains visible when in a vehicle, and if you "shoot", you drop the flag)
-add some exterior spawns for ctf- too easy to camp the base spawns
-increase the respawn time on the splaser- way too powerful right now.
-portalsportalsportals

[n00b1n8R]

Spam me up on msn next time so I can bitch about lag :iamafag:

[Warsaw]

Shit, if I had been on XFire I might have beeped you to join...but Steam has largely replaced XFire. :saddowns:

[Siliconmaster]

All right, in the dumbest and most obnoxious issue ever, I can't do much further work on the map because red base refuses to allow itself to be portalled. Just to make sure, I deleted all portals, and started again from scratch. I exactportalled red base only, then added portals elsewhere until the map compiled. EXACT. SAME. PROBLEM. Red base passes tool with no errors at all, but ingame, the game doesn't stop rendering stuff outside red base like it should. Has anyone ever heard of this happening? If I can just get red base working, the rest of the map will come together nicely.

My guess is that there's some hidden geometry issue somewhere. I tried welding all vertices in the map together, to remove any floating faces, but it said there were none to weld. So.... it seems to me that I might be able to fix it by rebuilding red base, which I could theoretically do by mirroring blue, but that's a lot of work that I'd rather not put myself through, especially if it doesn't make any difference.

Ideas?

[Dwood]

Exactportal each individual section of the base and test until the problem area is found.

[Siliconmaster]

That only works until I hit an area so large I can't really split it up, like the main are of red base. However, I'll do what I can. Thanks.

Edit: Oh hey, flag room portals right, main room doesn't. Frak. Time for some bizarre-looking portals.

[Siliconmaster]

DOUBLE POST FOR EPIC.

It is fixed.

I extracted red base and performed complex and grueling tests on it separate from the rest of the map. Eventually, by mirroring blue base and replacing almost all the forerunner geometry in red base, I managed to convince Halo that red base was awesome and should be portalable. Cool new word right there. Anyway, it works now, thank god. I can have the map fully portalled and basically ready to go by this weekend. After that, I merely need to fix up the thunder sound effects and playtest again to double check everything. Then maybe I can take a look at those custom lightmaps. I'm looking forward to having no ambient light messing up my base lighting. ^_^

I'm also giddy because Hobophobia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjW0fSiXY14), a film project from last semester, won 4 awards at the FDU student film festival earlier this evening, including best picture. And Humans Vs Zombies has been announced for next week on our campus. So that's three awesome things in less than 6 hours. Too much to handle. I'll consider it an early birthday present. :)

[Con]

yayyyyyy

[ghk]

good job...if you need an extra hand for a playtest just send me a pm...if not... hope it turns out ok

[Reaper Man]

Too bad the rules for your schools HVZ are laaame. With zombies being stunned, not killed, it's more fun and you can have crazy hordes, like the ones I had to fight off the other week, it was nuts.

[Siliconmaster]

Too bad the rules for your schools HVZ are laaame. With zombies being stunned, not killed, it's more fun and you can have crazy hordes, like the ones I had to fight off the other week, it was nuts.

Agreed, but it's better than the Dean refusing to let us play at all. Now I just have to finish up what I can with Precipice before the game starts next week. :D

[Reaper Man]

Get a nerf gun with a drum mag, thank me later.

[POQPrince]

Great work! I am eagerly anticipating the release of this map!

:jibbly:

[stilts]

Looks pretty sick man.

[Siliconmaster]

I am eagerly anticipating the release of this map!

As am I. :P


Looks pretty sick man.

Thanks. Now if I can just get the portals to fully cooperate, we'll be all good.

Edit: I've finally gotten the background ambient sounds working, which is great. Now the last big hurdle is the portalling. I've done everything I can to try to get them working, and I'm at a total loss. I know Firescythe is too busy to physically help me with them, but might anyone else have some free time to assist? I really want to finish this project before the end of the semester so that I can play it with everyone- otherwise, I won't be able to play online again until September, when I get back to school and good internet.

[Dwood]

Post on Halomaps requesting help - perhaps someone will be able to help there?

[Inferno]

SM talk to me on xfire when you get the chance.

[Llama Juice]

Don't do it, he's gunna put a Carbine in your map.

[Inferno]

Don't do it, he's gunna put a Carbine in your map.

Curses! He uncovered my true intentions!