Games For Windows Live

[Dwood]

Can someone please explain to me what it is? Especially the pros and the cons?

Note that I do not have Xbox live or anything like that.

[p0lar_bear]

Going over pros and cons of the LIVE service doesn't really matter unless you're a developer looking to use the G4WL platform in your game. To the end-user, either the game is LIVE enabled, or it isn't.

The LIVE service is intended to maintain a single gamer profile across multiple [G4WL-Enabled] games and to connect those gamers to each other. Basically, you make a gamertag, you get a friends list, achievement/gamerscore tracking, and in-game messaging.

Even though it started out with a different purpose, Steam and G4WL are fairly similar in what they offer for features, though in my opinion, Steam does it better.

[CrAsHOvErRide]

Cons: uff...

It was suppose to be a framework for games. On top of a game was a Live communication system that added support for more Xbox compatibility. Even had some nice features like anti-cheating etc.

BUT it was poorly written and just another marketing strategy. Like always...good concept and bad execution.

[Kornman00]

You say it was poorly written; have you actually delt with the framework's code before? If not, don't be making such accusations.

[CrAsHOvErRide]

A two byte patch to bypass the whole integrity check? Didn't we had memory leaks as well?

I'm not saying that this is something easy to code and I'm not on a bash Microsoft bandwagon but you cannot deny that we could have expected something better.

[jcap]

I would call it poorly written, but I guess it is the wrong word when arguing about semantics. Games for Windows LIVE is a fantastic example of a good concept that was poorly designed and implemented.

The idea that GFWL brings your Gamertag to PC games was exciting. The voice chat through your headset is SO MUCH better than it coming through your PC speakers, like with Steam. But the list of benefits ends there.

When GFWL was launched, the dumbasses at Microsoft decided that they would require an Xbox LIVE Gold membership ($50/yr) to access multiplayer features which are standard in literally every game today. One year later, after realizing the severity of their dickhead move, they made GFWL free for everyone. But by then it was too late and it had already fallen through the floor.

The pay-to-play multiplayer was the first and biggest nail in its coffin. Since then, more problems have been brought to my attention, though.

Each time you install the GFWL software (when you install a GFWL game for the first time on any PC), it generates a brand new PC ID. Even if you reinstall Windows 3 times on the same computer, the ID will be different each time. Unfortunately, some very smart people decided to use this for "GFWL activation". When you install a GFWL game, it won't ask you for a key during installation (unless the developer wants one). Instead, it will prompt you for a key the first time you connect to LIVE. When you type in your CD key, it connects to LIVE to verify that the key is valid, records your PC ID, and it creates a tokens.dat file which contains the activation information (CD key + PC ID) so you don't have to type in the key every time you connect to LIVE.

How is this a problem? Well, Microsoft said that you get "UNLIMITED" activations. This is not true. In fact, you only get around 10 (the number is not officially known). Normally, with product activation (as implemented by Microsoft in the past), it generates a unique HARDWARE ID based off of your motherboard information. Since this is based on hardware, the number will be the same every time you install on the same computer, and each time you activate software it find your hardware ID in the history, and it successfully activates the product. With the GFWL ID being different every new installation of Windows, even on the same computer, this looks like a new computer every time you activate, and so you use them up MUCH faster.

Another problem is with the lack of CD key authentication with servers and spoofing gamertags. With Halo on the PC, the Gamespy API creates a very special hash based off of your CD key which is transferred to the dedicated server when you connect. The dedicated server verifies your hash is valid with Gamespy's master server. When a player is banned by either Gamespy or a dedicated server admin, the CD key hash is banned, so that copy of Halo, regardless of the user alias being used, cannot connect to the server anymore.

Microsoft failed greatly with its GFWL servers because there is is absolutely no unique information whatsoever about the client that is passed to the dedicated server. Due to this shortfall, servers can only ban by Gamertags. If you are a server admin and you ban a player because they are cheating, they just have to create another free Gamertag and they'll be back in 5 minutes max.

Banning users isn't the only problem, though. Spoofing Gamertags has become the new big thing. A player can join a server appearing as someone else, and they are impossible to ban because their alias isn't a legitimate Gamertag. This is a MUCH bigger problem than it sounds, though. One player can go into a server spoofing another legitimate player. If they cheat, they can get that person banned from playing on that server, or even GFWL entirely (well not really since no one monitors GFWL for cheating! :iamafag:) When the real player returns to play on their favorite server, they'll find out they were banned and they're basically screwed at that point.

What makes the above scenario even worse is the new GFWL activation system Microsoft is implementing this fall, with hope to solve the banning problem. When activating a game, you will be forced to permanently link it with a Gamertag. If you get a new Gamertag, you will be unable to play the game anymore. If a player spoofs your Gamertag and gets you banned from many servers of a game, you'll be completely stuck with no servers to play on, since you can't even create a new Gamertag and play at that point. You will have to buy a new copy of the game and get a new Gamertag.

tl;dr: GFWL is shit.

[Dwood]

Wow. So that was what the whole H2Vista kid spoofing Korn was about?

Well the reason I asked this is because of a recent interview (http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1203&page=2) between a Shacknews reporter and Brad Wardel (Stardock CEO)

Where he lists off how the company has to pay-per-patch they release, among other things.

Yeah, It all just sounds like Steam lite. Or Xfire on Steroids.

[Kornman00]

(Note: at the time of this post, was replying to jcap's post)

Yeah, how something is written (language based) != how it is implemented (operation based). I hate it when people are specific when they want to "bash" something because it just ends up sounding like they're opinions just come from ignorance.

With that said, I think Microsoft has megalomania tendencies when it comes to their game development. This isn't like the 80s and 90s where big wigs could easily rule the wasteland and use those rulings to start trends. This really clouds their production lead's minds and makes me really glad that Bungie was able to step out from under their belly.

Note: Microsoft is an insanely large corporation. Like the Army, one group shouldn't parade how things are done everywhere else. IE, GFWL vs the .NET framework crews (just for example in terms of diversity, not really trying to contrast them). However, when it comes to media exposure this is never the case. Windows is to capitalism as Linux is to socialism (I think I did that comparison method right...). As such, the former is generally knocked more by The People.

[Dwood]

Korn, what's your rating of GFWL? You haven't given me your opinion. :O

[Kornman00]

I really don't have a unbiased rating. The only time I even stumbled into it was during the H2V days. I'm not much of a PC gamer to begin with so I haven't experienced any other G4WL games. However, I do like the fact that it enables developers to engineer multiplatform mulitplayer game play (PC <-> 360). I do believe Shadowrun demonstrated this ability?

That and allows 360 dashboard / XBL concepts to carry over the the PC. However, like jcappa the rappa was getting at, it's execution thereof is very low on par to what could have been.

Would also like to know how easy it is to integrate the framework into existing engines (so, reviewing the API). Then a more concise "rating" could be made.

[=sw=warlord]

The only time I even stumbled into it was during the H2V days.
And on that note.
What happened to H2radio?
And what ahppened to all the other stuff ghost, you and a few others annouced showed previes and never said a word about again?

[Phopojijo]

The major thing I *hated* was Cert for GFWL...

Want a mod? Pay ((4-5 digit dollar amount)) to Microsoft to verify that it's not a virus... great...

[Kornman00]

And on that note.
What happened to H2radio?
And what ahppened to all the other stuff ghost, you and a few others annouced showed previes and never said a word about again?
Yeah, I guess that stuff will always be the Halo movie of the modacity community.

I never finished figuring out how to rebuild the shader tags from their post processed form so I never took it any further, at least, not in the form of H2GRadio

Ghost found a suitable fembot and started getting more into school. Yadda yadda yadda

[=sw=warlord]

Yeah, I guess that stuff will always be the Halo movie of the modacity community.

I never finished figuring out how to rebuild the shader tags from their post processed form so I never took it any further, at least, not in the form of H2GRadio

Ghost found a suitable fembot and started getting more into school. Yadda yadda yadda
Yeah but atleast with the halo movie we got district nine where as your project we ended with masters...
Sir i feel i was short changed...
You know im gonna keep badgering you on this :p