What is the value of Religion?

[Atty]

Question proposed to my Ethics class by our professor with the instructions to collect answers, opinions, etc, from other people.

Care to give yours?

Thanks guys!

By the way, no names or anything are needed but if possible list your age and if you could what faith you follow (Christian, catholic, atheist, agnostic, etc.)

[paladin]

Faith. Its give people something to believe in/ have faith in.

[Yoko]

People follow a religion because they're afraid of death. Atheists accept death.

[neuro]

religion is for the weak who cannot accept things as they are, and thus decide to think up some hiddem meaning behind their pointless little lives.

because afterall. life, anyone's life, is utterly and completely pointless.
the only reason you're all here is because you got lucky that you won a 1 to 5billiion lottery and won life. nothing more.

people who feel the need to comfort themself by lying to them selves that when they die THEY DONT REALLY DIE BUT THEY DO ANYWAY invent religion, and people to weak to accept reality as it is and too dumb to think for themselves follow a religion.

[Ganon]

It's a crutch towards explaining the unknown and navigating through their lives with a sentimental value of humanity. Much can't be said as far as any religion's belief being wrong, Scientology is theoretically about as accurate as Christianity, it's a matter of accepting your own and others unproven beliefs. On a personal view of things, I choose to be agnostic because much can be explained by science and common sense, yet there is a void that cannot. Not to mention being part of a religion is no different than being in a gang, assuming history books and present day news aren't complete fairy tales. I could go on but I'd literally take up 4 ft of monitor space degrading humanity.

12
Haruhiism

[L0d3x]

I could write an essay here about why I don't believe in God, but the truth is, I simply have NO CLUE if it's true or not.

The universe is so immense. The possibilities of why we are here, how we got here, what/who(?) designed the universe to be as it is are endless, and nobody can honestly say they know any of this for sure.

So I'm not christian, I'm not an atheist, I simply do not know what to believe. I'm just a simple person living his life, without caring too much about why I'm here and how I got here.

But people who do believe in God, do so because they were either raised to do so (dare I say, brainwashed to believe so?) in their culture, or because they WANT to believe that life isn't pointless in the end, or that they need something to get them through tough times.

I don't need any of that though.

[Aerowyn]

What is up with these controversial topic threads lately? This thread is guaranteed to create a flamewar (Freelancer hasn't posted yet, but when he does, all hell will more than likely break loose, because it ALWAYS does). Atty, I realize it's for a class and everything, but it's just been every single day there's a new thread like this.

I think we need a "srs discussion/debate" forum just for threads like this, because they really shit up Off Topic.

[Jean-Luc]

I think we need a "srs discussion/debate" forum just for threads like this, because they really shit up Off Topic.
Seconded

[teh lag]

I would also support having such a forum (with its own set of rules to keep things civil which can get you kicked out of it - I think MekTek has something similar).

Religion is comforting and can fill some peoples' needs for a sense of purpose or guidance in life. I don't feel that I need it to do that, and I consider myself a pretty solid atheist.

[Kornman00]

Twenties, atheist

Religion provides people with an "answer" to not only the present, but also the future and beyond. People use it to feel a sense of purpose. All religions are based on human observations, subjections, and corruption. Follow at your own risk. I'd rather hang on to things much more tangible and find out the answers myself than to follow someone blindly. Have to say life has been pretty good so far.

[paladin]

religion is for the weak who cannot accept things as they are, and thus decide to think up some hiddem meaning behind their pointless little lives.


Im not going to sit here and debate about this, but I take serious offense to this and find it extremely arrogant.

[Aerowyn]

I never really answered the thread properly. Time to do so.

I do not label myself to any religious affiliation. And I am more than likely in the minority on this forum when I say that I hold a belief in a higher power (though, I would never presume what this higher power is, we can never know that for sure). So I suppose that makes me an agnostic.

I believe in something because I cannot imagine believing in nothing. Life is hard--but to wallow in a sort of misery over whether or not your existence means something is just as bad. It doesn't help.



life, anyone's life, is utterly and completely pointless.

Do you really believe that your life is pointless? I find it sort of sad that you view yourself and everyone else so negatively. Also, feelings like that are what breed serial killers--and I know these are pretty loaded questions, but hypothetical--is your mother's life pointless? Would you take her life because it means nothing to you? Or anyone's else's life for that matter? Are you willing to take your OWN life if it really means nothing to you?


the only reason you're all here is because you got lucky that you won a 1 to 5billiion lottery and won life. nothing more.


"Nothing more"? If I won a lottery with that kind of odds, or if any of us did, I don't think we'd be sulking about it.

[Sever]

Age: 21; Religion: none - not atheist, not agnostic, none. How, you might ask? Both of those are still defined as religious beliefs, one being the belief of no deity, and the other being the belief that the existence of a deity can't be proven. I simply have no beliefs whatsoever. That's completely beside the point of my views on religion, however, since belief and religion aren't the same, even though there is a great deal of overlap and correlation.

Religion on the personal and communal level can give guidance and confidence, strengthen ones own resolve, and build ties between people through shared morals and goals.

On the impersonal and large-scale level, it can be used as a means to motivate and control society's actions and reactions to a variety of political, cultural and sociological stimuli to amazing ends.

I have no problem with religion itself - it is those who misinterpret, misuse, and abuse it to their own ends that I abhor. I'm not a religious person, but I'll be the first to admit that a multitude of great people, actions, and ideas are the direct result of religion. However, I'll also be the first to point out the negative effects of it as well.

[Bodzilla]

Faith. Its give people something to believe in/ have faith in.
why is being blind and gullible a positive characteristic.

It does bring some comfort to the sick and the dieing, but would you rather be comforted and happy, or knowledgeable and right.

[paladin]

How come someone cant believe in something and not be right at the same time? And just because you believe in something doesnt make you blind or gullible. Infact, I would argue that it makes you less blind than if you didn't believe in anything. Faith gives you the opportunity to see what the future might hold.

You have your beliefs and I have mine. Who's to say one is right and one is wrong when no one has the answer? To say one is wrong is simply putting your belief, or lack there of, first.

--------------------------------------

age:21
religion: raised Catholic, practice none.

I dont get why people who claim not to be religious are always so quick to shoot down someone else beliefs. It just goes to show you how narrow minded some people can be. You have a severe case of tunnel vision.

[Aerowyn]

why is being blind and gullible a positive characteristic.

It does bring some comfort to the sick and the dieing, but would you rather be comforted and happy, or knowledgeable and right.

If life is pointless, as Neuro pointed out, then what does it matter what someone believes will happen after their death? Why does it offend you so? It's not like it's YOUR life.

And if all this research and science, and all this religion is just going to die when the world dies.... why does it matter to you if someone believes that a higher power created the earth? Or why does it matter if someone believes in the big bang theory? What's it to you?

If life is pointless, why not let people live their lives how they WANT to? Why not focus on your OWN life's pointlessness? Why ruin everyone else's life just because you don't believe the same as they do?

Oh, and to answer your question--If being knowledgeable and right means feeling miserable and useless, I'd take the former. We only have a certain amount of time to live... why spend it feeling worthless?

Belief in itself is harmless. It is the people that USE this belief to gain leverage over people that is wrong. Don't get them confused. It's the ESTABLISHMENT you should take issue with.

[Reaper Man]

To control the masses, and to have a one-size-fits-all answer to unanswerable questions.

[Bodzilla]

I think you've misinterpreted tweeks post a bit here


Do you really believe that your life is pointless? I find it sort of sad that you view yourself and everyone else so negatively.
when he says life is pointless he means we weren't born with a hidden agender or purpose.

Also, feelings like that are what breed serial killers--and I know these are pretty loaded questions, but hypothetical--is your mother's life pointless? Would you take her life because it means nothing to you? Or anyone's else's life for that matter? Are you willing to take your OWN life if it really means nothing to you?
Serial killers?
you do realize that the vast majority of the prison system is religious?
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
so no thats a straw-man. and hell that doesnt make me want to murder a heap of people.
and the same deal with his mothers life, i think you've misinterpreted his response. Afterall, why would you take something of value from someone even though it meant nothing to you?
you wouldn't.


"Nothing more"? If I won a lottery with that kind of odds, or if any of us did, I don't think we'd be sulking about it.
who says where sulking...

if theres anything here its stunned disbelief that something from 3000 years ago still has such an absolute power across the world to the detriment of society and progress.
we could have been a hell of alot more then we are now if we whern't held back by the weak, the stupid and the fear.



If life is pointless, as Neuro pointed out, then what does it matter what someone believes will happen after their death? Why does it offend you so? It's not like it's YOUR life.

Thats not a problem, it's a side-effect of the disease thats much more devastating in other areas. We dislike the whole spiel because people have been duped and everyone is worse off because of it.


And if all this research and science, and all this religion is just going to die when the world dies.... why does it matter to you if someone believes that a higher power created the earth? Or why does it matter if someone believes in the big bang theory? What's it to you?

Knowledge. as a species we should always strive for knowledge and understanding in the universe and the world around us so we may better ourselves and do great things.
and who says we'll still be on this world when it dies in billions of years?
science.


If life is pointless, why not let people live their lives how they WANT to? Why not focus on your OWN life's pointlessness? Why ruin everyone else's life just because you don't believe the same as they do?

We arnt trying to ruin someone's life. Just the opposite, what sort of life could you have living your entire life with the threat of eternal damnation.


Oh, and to answer your question--If being knowledgeable and right means feeling miserable and useless, I'd take the former. We only have a certain amount of time to live... why spend it feeling worthless?

as far as i know and history shows having more knowledge is anything but useless. And why do people jump to the conclusion that because we dont believe in the sky daddy, we feel useless?
theres no logic in that.


Belief in itself is harmless. It is the people that USE this belief to gain leverage over people that is wrong. Don't get them confused. It's the ESTABLISHMENT you should take issue with.
and we DO.
But these people stop and slow down the inevitable march of science.
goddamit people i want a mutha fucking firefly spaceship!
the belief is only harmless if it's never acted on.
people make decisions, they vote, they EAT based on there religious belief and that is anything but harmless.

[Kalub]

Religion is a scam, it promises all these great things for those who are devout, but really all you get to look forward to is the same 8.5'X6.5'X7' hole in the ground.


Most of it's ridiculous.

[Bodzilla]

and aero i love you despite your beliefs <3

[Choking Victim]

I believe religion has no value, it's a primitive way of trying to explain the world around us that has survived the test of time. I find it more plausible that abiogenesis, evolution, chaos theory, and the big bang play a more vital role in the creation of life and the universe rather than intelligent design. While each of these are still theories, I like to think they're much more accurate than that of a story written over two thousand years ago in an attempt to explain the origin of life.

I believe religion still exists because some people simply can't deal with the fact that we're floating through space hurtling around a hot cloud of gas at just the right distance to sustain liquid water and give rise to life, all for seemingly no reason. Religion brings humanity both hope and death in the form of war.

Also, I support the idea for a serious discussion topic, do it.

[kid908]

And the flamewar begins!

anyways: 17.
Buddhist, in the worlds term. Typically, it only applied to monks and what not.

But honestly, neuro has a point, which I can connect to Buddhism, oddly enough.

The 4 Truths of Buddhism:
1. Life as we know it ultimately is or leads to suffering/uneasiness in one way or another. (kinda saying we all have problems get over it)
2. Suffering is caused by craving, often expressed as a deluded clinging to a certain sense of existence, or to the things or phenomena that we consider the cause of happiness or unhappiness. Craving is also negative. (You're not important. you live is nothing special. get over it.)
3.Suffering ends when craving ends. This is achieved by eliminating delusion, thereby reaching a liberated state of Enlightenment (Your problems are caused by your obsession with your existence. Get over it, it's better that way.)
4.Reaching this liberated state is achieved by following the path laid out by the Buddha (He achieved Enlightenment and moved onto a higher plane of existence [hmm...stargate-ish XD, sorry for that reference] and is here to help you achieve the same and break the cycle of rebirth. follow it and you will end your suffering.)


I few it more of a philosophical way to live life than a religious one.

The point of religion is to liberate yourself from earthly requirements. But...Faith blinds its followers from seeing the truth. (which hold quite true). If you let go of your existence and greed, you will see the truth of the universe. Religion is just a comedic relieve as you watch all those extremists taking a book word by word. It's just funny. Western Religion's purpose is to create large mass following with a small group of extremists that the others can laugh at and relieve their stress and tensions

Listen to Buddha, he knows what he's talking about.:allears:

Last statement is a joke if you did know. I really don't care about what you believe and religion is, I'll hate you because of you.

[Bodzilla]

(PROTIP: none of those explain the origin of life lol)

[kid908]

(PROTIP: none of those explain the origin of life lol)

It's not suppose to -.-

[Bodzilla]

was reffering to Choking victim my bad.

also on a side note, my name was derived from the Bodhi tree.
rock you like a hurricane.

[Aerowyn]

Bod your post was so short before and then I re-checked and it was a million miles long. I almost want to tl;dr. Like I said, I don't want to make a huge debate out of it; that's Freelancer's job.

Oh, and just to clarify, I am going to use a definition of religion that one of Atty's friends on facebook suggested, and I thought it was pretty good:

"Religion is a practice, belief or an activity of which a person believes/does."




when he says life is pointless he means we weren't born with a hidden agender or purpose.

But does that matter? The purpose of your life is what you make it out to be. I think the purpose of our lives is to be able to decide for ourselves. I can't tell you what to make of your life, and vice versa.

I know what I want my life to be like, I know what purpose I want to serve while I'm here. And if I go through that with a very small belief in a higher power (if you recall, I said I don't follow any sort of dogma, I make up my own as I go, really), it's really no one's business but mine.

If I am a pointless part of this world, surely you won't mind if I have pointless beliefs. Sure, I don't "advance" society, but then again, we are going to die out eventually, so our "advancement" really serves no purpose but to pass the time. All that understanding won't mean shit when there's no one around to understand it.


and hell that doesnt make me want to murder a heap of people.

Because you have morals. Morals which probably came to you from some sort of religious affiliation in your younger days (before you became old enough to rationalize it yourself). And just because you stopped believing in a God did not change those morals, did they? If the Bible says killing is wrong, and you stop believing in God (and consequently the Bible), does that make you suddenly think that killing is RIGHT? No. You aren't losing religious belief; you're simply modifying it to better accommodate your lifestyle. The lack of a God is a part of your religion.

And remember, morals are objective. Hey, kind of like belief systems. :allears:


Afterall, why would you take something of value from someone even though it meant nothing to you?
you wouldn't.

I PERSONALLY would not, but that does not speak for everyone. Morals, as I said, are objective. Just ask Charles Manson, haha.

Charles Manson said once in an interview, "If I wanted to kill somebody, I'd pick up this book and beat you to death with it, and I wouldn't feel a thing. It would be just like walking to the drugstore." Among many other creepy things (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uhmtAmwnDQ) regarding his lack of respect for someone else's life.

Their lives may not have had value to him, and HE thought he was advancing society by ridding the world of the people he murdered.



what sort of life could you have living your entire life with the threat of eternal damnation.

The topic of this thread was RELIGION, in general. You're only referring to Christianity. Remember there are plenty more religions out there that do not use a "heaven/hell" system.

The Bwa people in Africa, for instance, like most West African tribes, believe that life is just one step in a journey taken by the person's soul. There isn't a hell or punishment--one's soul simply moves onto another plane of existence to live with their ancestors (which are practically their God figures--their FAMILY is the basis of their faith).

And while I personally don't believe in hell, you've got to admit, it's a fair motivator for people to do the right thing. But I think what constitutes damnation is a part of a person's personal beliefs--one might say sex before marriage, while someone else might think NOT having sex/procreating is worth eternal fire. Who knows.



people make decisions, they vote, they EAT based on there religious belief and that is anything but harmless.

Here's where the definition I mentioned comes into play. "Religion is a practice, belief or an activity of which a person believes/does."

Do you make decisions based on your beliefs? If someone said to you, "Hey come here and help me rob this elderly woman" would you do it? That's making a decision based on a belief. Technically speaking, your morals fall under a "religious belief" regardless of if you believe in a God figure or not.

Do you vote for a candidate based on his beliefs on certain topics? Because his beliefs are more in-line with yours? It's the same thing. It's just when the word "religious" is attached that suddenly everyone is all frowny.

Vegetarianism could be considered a religion. They believe that an animal's life is just as important as a human's, and that it is not a human's place to eat the meat of other animals. It's a practice that dictates what they can and cannot eat. It's a harmless lifestyle change that makes THEM feel better about themselves and their bodies. Does that impede the advancement of society? Certainly not. So some Christians eating fish on Fridays for a month or two doesn't hurt anybody.

But, like I said, I don't really want a debate. I just think there needs to be a respect for someone else's beliefs. I respect your atheism; so respect my agnosticism, or respect someone else's Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu beliefs. I don't think you're blind because you made a decision as to how you want to view life and this world, so don't consider me to be blind for doing the very same.

:) It's been fun lads, and I'm eager to see exactly how everyone feels about the issue.

[Choking Victim]

was reffering to Choking victim my bad.

also on a side note, my name was derived from the Bodhi tree.
rock you like a hurricane.
abiogenesis added. I wasn't saying any of those directly spawned life, they all played a role.

[Bodzilla]

aero theres alot wrong with what you just said, but i aint got the time to point it out.

your making an awful lot of projections about things, and i'm yet to see ya back it up with anything.

Anyway off to go camping with the GF for a couple days, see you bi.

E: was just playing CV :P

[kid908]

I don't think you're blind because you made a decision as to how you want to view life and this world, so don't consider me to be blind for doing the very same.

I don't, it's an old teaching. Don't have blind faith. You don't have to submit of you feel there is no truth in it.

Truth is everywhere, but blind faith distorts the truth.

[Heathen]

keeps weak minded people who cant govern good from bad for themselves from killing each other.

For the most part, it works.

[Dwood]

17, Mormon. *Waits for flames*

[Aerowyn]

aero theres alot wrong with what you just said, but i aint got the time to point it out.

I'm just projecting what I believe. What I personally believe. Honestly, I don't give two shits if you think it's wrong or not.

I'm not trying to win a debate, or trying to wrassle you into believing the way I do. To be brutally honest, your beliefs are completely and totally irrelevant to me. Just as mine are probably totally unimportant to you. You might say I am blind, or pathetic... but I am happy with the current state of my life. And I made my own decisions about my spiritual beliefs when I stopped going to church at around 8. I don't follow a dogma, I don't have any sort of religious text that I base my morals from (I've never even READ the Methodist bible, not a single page, and I have no IDEA what Methodists really believe, even though I was one for the first 8 years of my life). I base my morals and my beliefs from myself, and how I see the world and all the people in it. Is that wrong? Certainly not. And I would not consider you wrong if you did differently. I have more respect for people than to do that.

Someone's religion should not matter to you or anyone else. The same goes for everyone in this thread. Saying that someone's life is "pathetic" or "pointless" does NOTHING constructive. Those words are completely objective.

My life is MY OWN, not yours, and I don't expect you to feel the same way I do, or behave the same way I do. I make my own path, and I follow my OWN "religion" based on my experiences in life. I would expect the very same of you. It's cool if you don't get it, if you think it's "wrong." I respect your right to disagree with me.

And while you think religious beliefs (at this point I think we've established that you're most upset about Christianity) are silly, I am sure many Christians would say the same about science. Does this matter? Not an ounce. So what is the point in arguing about it?

I mean, we all want to be right. So arguing about it and denouncing one belief as being "WRONG" is really just a matter of PRIDE. And trying to hammer your view into someone else because you think you're "right" is NO BETTER than the very people you're criticizing. Come on now.

Time to agree to disagree and let people believe what they want.

Also, just putting it out there.... if you want a Firefly spaceship so badly, you have two hands. Contribute. :)




oh and Bod I love you too man <3

[Higuy]

15, raised and born christian all the way baby.

BUT

I do question my self often about this as well. Is there really god? Does something really happen after you die? One would wonder. In a way I just figure to wait for it to happen, and live my life to the fullest without worrying. I guess there's no harm in believing in your religion or not believing in all. One of the main reasons I believe in Christianity is becuase so many things revolve around it, especially things like time. Yeah you could think that someday the people just started counting time but wouldn't that be kinda silly after they hadn't counted it before for thousands of years?

well whatever, I guess we all just to have to wait and see for ourselves at the end :v:

[ICEE]

I am an atheist.

Religion is to give people hope. Certain people need it. The starving impoverished in Somalia need religion. The woman who's husband dies, leaving her to raise their children, needs religion. The front line grunt serving in combat needs religion.

I am none of these things, so I do not need religion, but for the above reasons, I do not condemn the religious. Only the zealous

[paladin]

I think technically atheist can be considered a religion, you might want to read sever's post on the first page...

Aerowyn, I agree with almost 100% of what you have said in this thread.

[=sw=warlord]

I personaly do not follow any kind of religion, i find the concept of life after death borish and rather frightening, There have been trillions of people who have died all though history and i don't particularly wish to spend another life time only thing time eternal having to meet everyone.
All i wish is to live life without compromise and when im done, step into the shadows without complaint.

I feel should give the same compassion to others as i would expect from them and if needed i will advise those who seek it on any personal matter when asked for said advice.
The idea of a divine deity or creator dosn't flow too well with me as i find things alot easier to understand when adding scientific logic to scenarios than the simple "its gods plan", i like to know how things happen and when i learn that i also learn why things happen.
Religion in it self, to me has little value, the moral values people hold from the beliefs they get from religion how ever has various values, for instance the "do unto others and they unto you" i quite like, i follow the same practice but i don't feel people need to follow faiths to be a decent civilized human being.

I don't personaly believe there is such a thing as "evil" because usualy what's considered "evil" is purely something different to the normal day to day scenario, for instance: some religions feel pre-marrage sex is evil and yet any other life form on the planet reproduces without any thought of marrage or coupling of individuals, how ever that doe's not believe i think eye for an eye is any good either, as all that results is everyone having a black eye.

I am curious what the world would be like without religion actualy, it has molded our civilization so much since the dawn of our species that i don't think it would survive too long if faith's were lost entirely for the simple and harsh truth, those who depend on religion for direction in their life would feel they have no purpose and possibly resort to "radical" retorts.
That would either cause the human race to end in a final large war where no sides will have any inhibitions on their actions or would accelerate our civilizations to a point where technology could become so advanced no one at this present time could even begin to contemplate.

[ICEE]

I think technically atheist can be considered a religion, you might want to read sever's post on the first page...

Aerowyn, I agree with almost 100% of what you have said in this thread.

Good point. considering that the term "atheist" could technically imply more than just a disbelief in god, I shall define exactly what I believe.

I do not believe in god.

I do not believe the notion that civilization could not exist without religion.

I do not believe that morals could not exist without religion.

I believe that the concept of religion needs to exist for the sake of the unfortunate who rely on it.

If a plausible religion with evidence of the existence of a god and reasons for me to worship said god arose, I would not object to looking in to it.

I do not condemn the religious for their beliefs, provided that these beliefs do not encroach on me, or anyone else who does not wish to believe.

[ODX]

I see each religion, almost like a set of rules that you are given to follow, spiced up with some moral-stories and other kinds of jazz.

Edit: But like most other people, I, too, see it as a thing to have Faith in, for people to know they aren't alone or that "because you do this and live as such, you and given this and shall live like so, unlike this person over here who has caused trouble and disrupted society."
Sort of goes beside "Everything has a purpose."

[Inferno]

Follow my religion or I will kill/persecute you.

It's just another reason for stupid people to be stupid. Additionally, when you die your dead. There is nothing else to it.

[Aerowyn]

Additionally, when you die your dead. There is nothing else to it.

Conjecture. Unless of course you've been dead before.
I'm not specifying whether or not I believe in life after death, but a theory such as that is just the same as saying there is an afterlife of some sort. Seeing as we won't know until it happens, it's best to keep an open mind.

[ChemicalFizz]

17, Catholic.

I follow the bible because, despite the misinterpretations, it gets so many things right. I relate to the parable of the prodigal son, the prospect of forgiveness, the parable of the good Samaritan, and the hope of eternal life with God. The Westboro Baptist Church and the insultors are just blasphemers looking for self-assurance and publicity. If it is Christianity you've heard about and you're blatantly and utterly disgusted with it, so be it. Nobody is imposing this belief on you. I've been on these forums for a while now and I'm amazed and quite honestly, frightened and insulted at the xenophobic reaction to Christians. It is a Christian ideal to be humble and to never board the high horse, and it is no one's right to declare "rednecks" or "zealous" believers as an idiotic, blind group. It is as Archangel Michael's name literally translates: "Who is like God?" No one. Certainly not me and certainly not my neighbor. I think this is a universal belief. Doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, you're not God and nobody's perfect. Carlos Santana once said, "Everybody gets wet when it rains, from the prostitutes to the pope." How right he is.

Eternal damnation is a scary, frightening subject, no doubt about it. Take it from me. I've dreamt about it and feared this very place for many nights of my life, and the thoughts haunt me whenever I come across a moral dilemma. That doesn't mean I, as a person, or any other Christian for that matter, should condemn ourselves and everyone around us to hell. That's not my right. We believe God is rational and all-knowing, and it's your call to take that notion or not. My priest told me himself that only those who outright object to an offer of eternal life are those that are forsaken to hell. And you know what? Maybe hell isn't all that cracked up to be either. In description, it is the state of separation from God. But again, none of this is my right to impose on those who object. Harper E. Lee portrayed Atticus Finch as the ideal Christian: a steadfast representative of social justice, even in a losing battle, just for the sake of doing what's right. Unlike the townsfolk, he never imposed or suggested what was right or the Christian thing to do. Instead, he spoke with his actions. Besides, you all have morals for a reason.

So the holistic view? I like to believe religion is there to give hope for eternal life, among other things. It keeps us in line. Gives us meaning. So maybe we emerged from a gaseous explosion, but that doesn't answer the Why, even if there isn't one. There are so many coincidental circumstances in life, like the resiliency of the human body and the immune system, the ability for our body to recover, that just gives evidence to why we should be thankful. Maybe it's a testament to God's mercy. Or Shiva's mercy. Or Buddha's. Pfft, I don't know. Go take a humanities class. Maybe you'll see what I mean.


religion is for the weak who cannot accept things as they are, and thus decide to think up some hiddem meaning behind their pointless little lives.

because afterall. life, anyone's life, is utterly and completely pointless.
the only reason you're all here is because you got lucky that you won a 1 to 5billiion lottery and won life. nothing more.

people who feel the need to comfort themself by lying to them selves that when they die THEY DONT REALLY DIE BUT THEY DO ANYWAY invent religion, and people to weak to accept reality as it is and too dumb to think for themselves follow a religion.

I certainly hope you don't look at yourself like that either. But more so, that you don't get a sense of satisfaction from your answer, either. I don't know if that answer makes you feel wise, but if it's really a nihilist attitude you have towards why you're here, it's just a testament to how much you're really enjoying your own life right now. You're only human. That's not up for debate. We don't follow the bible, the Qur'an, or the Vedas because we can't think for ourselves. It's not like we don't face doubts either, or try to interpret what's written and what's not written for ourselves. So just... Lighten up.

[sdavis117]

Life after death and the concept of god is just a game of guess work from both sides. No one will know until they are dead. Till then, neither side has any evidence to support their claims, so both side should be given the same amount of skepticism.

The whole debate is useless, just a ton of people guessing.

[paladin]

ChemicalFizz, You sir deserve best post award.

[sdavis117]

ChemicalFizz, You sir deserve best post award.
Darn, I was preparing an acceptance speech until you edited your post.

[Dwood]

I like these chemicalfizz and aerowyn persons. if you are atheists and shove it down another persons throat you are no better than those you stereotype.

[Inferno]

Conjecture. Unless of course you've been dead before.
I'm not specifying whether or not I believe in life after death, but a theory such as that is just the same as saying there is an afterlife of some sort. Seeing as we won't know until it happens, it's best to keep an open mind.

The human mind is like a computer. If you pull out the power supply it dies.

You, your physical and mental existence, is nothing more than a series of chemical reactions between cells. That is what life it is like it or not.

I still believe that you should live your life to the fullest for as long as it may be. And to do what you love regardless of what people think of it. Just so long as it does not interfere with someone elses happiness.

[Heathen]

I guess my beliefs are not that it CANT be proven, but if it can, I have no choice but to accept it. I would be hard headed to not believe in God in the face of positive evidence.

[Inferno]

I guess my beliefs are not that it CANT be proven, but if it can, I have no choice but to accept it. I would be hard headed to not believe in God in the face of positive evidence.

If I die and there is a after life I will be happy. The prospect of death fucking depresses me.

[Aerowyn]

I still believe that you should live your life to the fullest for as long as it may be. And to do what you love regardless of what people think of it. Just so long as it does not interfere with someone elses happiness.

Hear, hear. :downs:


If I die and there is a after life I will be happy. The prospect of death fucking depresses me.
And this. I fear death above everything. Mainly because I love being here, I love what I have in my life. I love my memories and the people in them. I love my senses, especially sight and touch. I love to be able to feel. And death... you lose everything. And I love life too much to want to let it go.

Sometimes things are bad. Sometimes there are hurt feelings and bad days.... but I am grateful for the fact that I feel them at all.

[Amit]

keeps weak minded people who cant govern good from bad for themselves from killing each other.

For the most part, it works.

Yeah, it works until two of these groups decide that the other is wrong. *cough* Crusades *cough*


17, Mormon. *Waits for flames*

That explains a lot.

[sdavis117]

Yeah, it works until two of these groups decide that the other is wrong. *cough* Crusades *cough*

That is more of an issue with organized religions.

[Heathen]

Yeah, it works until two of these groups decide that the other is wrong. *cough* Crusades *cough*



That explains a lot.

"for the most part"

[Amit]

That is more of an issue with organized religions.

Is that not what we're talking about?

[sdavis117]

Is that not what we're talking about?
If you think that is the only kind of religion, then it could be.

[Huero]

16, Atheist
Religion serves a multitude of purposes - understandably, they serve to encompass a large portion of humanity. Emotional support, a community one feels connected to, hope - all of these things are purposes that religion serves. I won't take the biased view of the common atheist and say that it's to support them as a crutch as they can't accept their own humanity - this could be a reason for some, but I won't generalize like that. Everyone looks for something different in religion. Some are raised in it, and is common sense to them. One can not say definitively what purpose religion serves in the common man, as you won't find the same answer person to person.
As for the VALUE of religion - it seems to serve good and bad purposes, though to even comment on its value is a biased statement. Religion seems to done pretty good things and pretty bad things over time. Its value to me, personally? Well, it instilled a lot of morals and values in me that, while I still hold true to some, I have mostly broken away from. The environment that I was raised in was a heavily Roman Catholic one - complete with the values that one would expect from such an environment. I do, however, appreciate the education it gave me. I believe that religion has value in modern society - one it's slowly losing, but some people need it to keep themselves going, and I am okay with and respect that. I wouldn't blame today's Haitian for taking solace in their beliefs in a god - it could help them cope with their earthquake situation. However, it is when different moral sets (oftentimes accompanying religions) clash that there is a problem, and religion loses its value.

[Amit]

If you think that is the only kind of religion, then it could be.

Hmm, I see what you're getting at. Good insight.

[Heathen]

Oh, and because I haven't yet,
17, atheist.

Have been since I was 8 and I put the "santa isn't real so why is jesus" thing together all on my own. I knew I had stumbled upon something when my nanny put me in time out and whipped me for asking her that. It was like being put in jail for discovering a conspiracy for me. Why punish me if I wasn't on to something.

I think religion will go away just like the belief in demons and the idea that the world is flat. Its one of those beliefs that will be ridiculous to later generations.

[paladin]

Oh, and because I haven't yet,
17, atheist.

Have been since I was 8 and I put the "santa isn't real so why is jesus" thing together all on my own. I knew I had stumbled upon something when my nanny put me in time out and whipped me for asking her that. It was like being put in jail for discovering a conspiracy for me. Why punish me if I wasn't on to something.

I think religion will go away just like the belief in demons and the idea that the world is flat. Its one of those beliefs that will be ridiculous to later generations.



I disagree, I think no matter what time (year, decade, century, millennium) there will always be some sort of religion/ worship.

[Huero]

I disagree, I think no matter what time (year, decade, century, millennium) there will always be some sort of religion/ worship.

There will be hope, but the modern form of religion is likely to dissapear
People will just channel it into different forms

[Heathen]

You guys don't think that our race will become intelligent enough that they will see the impossibility of all the magic and fantasies?

Maybe worship will still exist, but I think religions based on deities and invisible forces will be gone.

[Aerowyn]

...that they will see the impossibility of all the magic and fantasies?


What's wrong with magic and fantasies? :raise:

[Huero]

To insinuate that the race as a whole will grow more intelligent is pretty dumb. More educated, sure, but people are people, and human nature is not likely to change for a very long time. Education does not mean that people will stop believing in things that you can not understand or wish to understand. There will ALWAYS be questions to be answered. People will always come up with their own answers to them. In this way, religion will continue on.
Sorry Heathen, love you like a fuckbuddy, but you're adopting some pretty ignorant and arrogant views here.

[Heathen]

so you think we are just as stupid as we were in ye oldee times?

And I don't mean not believing in things you cant understand, I mean rising from the dead via magic, not science.

Things that are clearly impossible.

[Aerowyn]

And I don't mean not believing in things you cant understand, I mean rising from the dead via magic, not science.

Things that are clearly impossible.

Hey, you NEVER KNOW. Bod mentioned the "advancement" of society--if science persists, we may be able to raise the dead, or even prolong life indefinitely.

And the word "magic" is a point of view. If you took someone from the past (think ancient times) and brought them into today's world, our computers, and lights, and telephones... that would be magic. To them, anyway.

Really, anything is possible.

[Heathen]

yeah, thats why I said by science.

I mean hell, I hope I am wrong because I wouldn't mind an afterlife, but logically there isn't one.

[TeeKup]

Religion like so many things is a necessary evil. For thousands of years millions of people have been tortured, murdered, exiled from their homes by religion. Religion has taught humanity very hard lessons.

Yet as much as the horrible things that have been caused by religion, it has also taught us forgiveness and understanding. Those virtues however really depend on how the person was raised. At its core, Christianity teaches love and forgiveness regardless of what you have done; that changes depending on an individuals desires and personal agenda.

As our species becomes more advanced I earnestly hope we can outgrow religion. I myself am agnostic, like Ganon said, there is a certain void that we just cannot explain. I shall wait and see for any omnipotent creator IF there is any form of an afterlife, my hope that it is like the christian god, but also with a scientific/experimental agenda much like a scientist.

I shall not trust anything so influential from something as fragile and corruptible as a human being. I'll keep my faith in my moral compass as my life progresses. Right now my purpose in life is to find a way to make my species better, whether this is my own accord or some "divine" intervention is meaningless to me. I just want to get something done.

[=sw=warlord]

Conjecture. Unless of course you've been dead before.
I'm not specifying whether or not I believe in life after death, but a theory such as that is just the same as saying there is an afterlife of some sort. Seeing as we won't know until it happens, it's best to keep an open mind.
Other than the cold harsh truth of your brain holding all information about your personality and when you die that storage dies with it.:v:

In all serious though, i think it would seriously suck if there was an afterlife, sure there are plenty of people who i personaly miss but at the same time, if those events haden't happened everything that molded my personality to be who i am would be well pretty pointless don't you think?
It would mean there are no repercussions to what ever you do in life as youl just be reborn in a afterlife.

Here's a question for you: If a "God" really existed and required us to worship him/her/it what would said being gain from so called "lower beings" worshiping said divine being?
Someone said they would worship a god if proven that they existed and given a good enough reason but my question is, if the divine being was omnipotent and all powerfull then why would they need us to worship them?

One more thing, i would like to propose the question of is free will real? everything happens by cause and effect, is free will not just a reaction to a scenario presented to the individual?
you kick a wall, the nerves in your foot notice it and send a signal to your brain and you exclaim the pain in which ever manner of expression your mind is programmed to do so, so would this logic not apply to person to person coversations or any other activities? Surely the event's that have happened in your life would build more "parameters" your reaction to what ever happens?
Before replying to my questions think very carefully on what i am asking as i am curious what peoples replies to my questions will be.

[Limited]

20, Religion: None, (if any Christian).

I was raised a Christian, went to a Christian school. I'm surrounded by religious people, my mum was going to be a vicor at one point, my dad is religious too.

Its not the fact I dont believe it God, its just the fact the older I get, the more far fetched the idea is to me. Plus I hate not knowing true or false, I hate being stuck in that grey area. I dont rule out the fact there could be a God, but to be honest I hardly ever think about it.

I can see why people are religious, however I sometimes think feel religion was invented by people just to that they could get people to conform with each other, and live orderly, this is good yes, but perhaps living under a lie? I dont know.

I have no problem other people believing in things, as long as they dont pester me about it, keep it to themselves and we will be civil.

I also find some of the views (about gays for instance) very crude, the fact the bible 'roughly' says be yourself who ever you want to be, but they have very strong views about gays. Just seems very ironic the things they preach contradict other things they say.

I do follow the morals of like treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, but thats just because thats me in general.

I do have a question for you all, do you believe in ghosts (perhaps spirits too)?

[Dwood]

Ghosts that manifest themselves... like... say, in a castle? It's almost laughable imho. I do get enjoyment out of watching Ghost Hunters either way though lol.

[L0d3x]

20, Religion: None, (if any Christian).

I do have a question for you all, do you believe in ghosts (perhaps spirits too)?

Well, yes, since I kind of saw one for myself. People who haven't experienced such a thing will hardly ever believe in them, and some are even so stubborn to dismiss it as an optical illusion when they do end up seeing one.

In my case, seeing is believing. And I know what I saw wasn't fake, but it's VERY hard to explain exactly why I know this.

[sdavis117]

I do have a question for you all, do you believe in ghosts?
Yeah, they usually run websites and hire polar bears.

[paladin]

How can one believe in ghosts but not the after life?

Just throwing that out there...

[Inferno]

Ghosts and haunted places scare me regardless of the fact that I don't believe they exist.

[Aerowyn]

atheists who believe in ghosts = little bit of a hypocrite, I'd say.

[Inferno]

Haunted shit just scares me.

[paladin]

atheists who believe in ghosts = little bit of a hypocrite, I'd say.

this

[Limited]

atheists who believe in ghosts = little bit of a hypocrite, I'd say.
I agree, and is also why I asked it. My housemates arent religious, they pretty much write it off, yet they SWEAR this house is haunted.

Considering God and Jesus are good spirits, they must believe in ghosts and evil spirits.

[Heathen]

atheists who believe in ghosts = retarded, I'd say

indeed

when Paranormal Activities came out my friend was like "But its based on a true story" and I was like "But there is one way you can tell its not a true story..."
she was all like "OMG HOW?"

I was like "it has ghosts and demons in it"

[Yoko]

atheists who believe in ghosts = little bit of a hypocrite, I'd say.
I hate people who refer everything as "ghosts." Paranormal and unexplainable activities intrigue me, and yes I'm an Atheist. Do I expect to see the obligatory white figure with no face floating about creepy, supposedly haunted areas? No. Obviously ghosts aren't real, but there are some events that can't be explained. Granted that Ghost Hunters, Paranormal Activities, any kind of show like that is for entertainment purposes, but who knows, 1 out of every 100 evidence they find could be legit.

Ghosts <> Paranormal

[Heathen]

Gravity was unexplained in 1686, therefore it was a paranormal force. Now that it is explained, it is just a commonly known force. Any thing that could happen that could be considered Paranormal is only temporarily unexplained by science. Nothing "Paranormal" will ever be discovered to be demons, ghosts, or the loch ness monster.

I will bet my life on that.

[paladin]

Im the loch ness monster

[Corndogman]

Haven't read everything in this thread but I'll just say what I think, though it may have been said before.

I'm 17, raised Christian (Methodist) and I've thought a lot about this sort of thing. I decided that I didn't really believe in the christian religion or approve of all of its teachings/members, so I guess I fall into the agnostic category.

To the original thread question though, why I think so many people subscribe to a religion is that it provides the comfort and guidance that most people cant provide for themselves (though we're all capable). I have a theory that what people call a Divine Presence that comforts them, could be a naturally occurring phenomena of the human brain, that we have only been able to perceive as a divine presence.

Anyways, I can't really comment much about other religions besides Christianity (except that I think most religions sprouted from the same story/idea which may or may not be true, and altered by man), but I believe that The Bible is 90% metaphor(i.e. Parables) and 10% (note that those percentages were made up, but you get the point. My biggest gripe with religion is that generally it doesn't condone the idea of free thought, people should be encouraged to explain things for themselves, not accept what they've been told without question. That's also my opinion on those hardcore, cynical type Athiests (ie neuro, no offense). You've gotta keep an open mind. You can't take what you believe, and shut out all other possibility.



I do have a question for you all, do you believe in ghosts (perhaps spirits too)?

I've mentioned this before, but I'm part of a local group of Paranormal Investigators, and generally most people who are also are skeptics, we conduct research to try to figure out whether or not "Ghosts" etc. actually do exist. Typically people who do believe 100% that there is something, will attempt, subconsciously, to reach and call things that can be explained easily something that is paranormal.


How can one believe in ghosts but not the after life?

Just throwing that out there...

There are many other explanations for what we perceive as "ghosts," for instance, there are theories that events from other times, past or future, are somehow bleeding through into our point in time.

That's enough text-walling for me tonight, sorry guys.

[Huero]

so you think we are just as stupid as we were in ye oldee times?

And I don't mean not believing in things you cant understand, I mean rising from the dead via magic, not science.

Things that are clearly impossible.

Yes - we are, however, more educated. (sorry guys i went to school and bed and stuff)

[Corndogman]

This quote goes with my above post^


Gravity was unexplained in 1686, therefore it was a paranormal force. Now that it is explained, it is just a commonly known force. Any thing that could happen that could be considered Paranormal is only temporarily unexplained by science.

I agree with this part of your post. Like I said in my above post, there are many explanations for what "Ghosts" could be. Yes, it can be explained by science, everything can. It very well could be some sort of afterlife, but that doesn't make it some sort of unexplained "magic". Even an afterlife can be explained by science, though it may seem far-fetched.

And Yoko, yes a lot of those ghost shows are meant merely for entertainment, that is because all of the networks just wanted to get in on the paranormal action to get viewers. However the actual people on the shows started for a good reason, that they actually wanted to find answers (most of them anyhow). I have to agree though that paranormal activity movie was ridiculous, and over dramatized.

[blind]

19, nothing (nihilism :S:S)

i dont rlly believe in anything at all. we're a species on the planet and we're just here.. no better than any other animal other than the fact we have greater brain mass. people need to get over themselves and stop thinking they're so much better than any other creature on the planet, they're all just masses of cells competing for expansion.

ps. people can believe whatever they want to believe and debating (not arguing) is always a great way to see how others think

pps. debating =/ 'you're dumb'

/seriouspost.

[Donut]

the crusades were like 500 years ago. people's ignorance back then shouldnt be applied to people today.
i think it would be nice if people who arnt religious wouldnt instantly look down on people who are as if theyre stupid or inferior. what the fuck is that all about?

[Bodzilla]

I'm just projecting what I believe.
thats not what i had a problem with :P

i had a problem of you projecting the belief that Atheism is in anyway shape or form connected to apathy or serial killers or any of that other shit.
because theres nothing to back that up :p

hth!

[Bodzilla]

Hey, you NEVER KNOW. Bod mentioned the "advancement" of society--if science persists, we may be able to raise the dead, or even prolong life indefinitely.

where pretty much there already.
stem cells to regrow organs for people who's organs are failing.
the only real challenge at this point will be the brain, and how to repair it without altering a person's sense of self.
maybe it could be something as simple as quiz's on the DS that will keep the mind open to new ideas and alternative strategies in problem solving and thinking, that will help solve the problem of it shutting into automatic responses.
you ever tried to explain something alien to an old person and you'll see what i mean.

(theres a show on discovery or maybe the history channel that's dealing with this atm as well as other cool things like the invisibility cloak :P check it out)

[Bastinka]

It's an answer to a question, however it can be a misleading or false answer.

Keep in mind Atheism is a religion.

[Heathen]

Yes - we are, however, more educated. (sorry guys i went to school and bed and stuff)

Well we will be more educated later in life too.

Thats when we will evolve mentally from religion.

[thehoodedsmack]

Keep in mind Atheism is a religion.

It's actually not. You're probably thinking of anti-theists, and more hard-nosed atheists who like to push the idea that they're smarter and better than people who believe in deities. They've really ruined the name for the rest of us.

[Bastinka]

http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ISM

Looks just like another -ism to me.

[Bodzilla]

It's an answer to a question, however it can be a misleading or false answer.

Keep in mind Atheism is a religion.
IT IS NOT A FUCKING RELIGION.

stop trying to label us with you fools, if evidence became available to PROVE the existence of a god we would ACCEPT IT.
SAME AS ANYTHING THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

The existence of god at this stage has not and cannot be proven therefore we dont use blind faith and a lack of logic and say that he's there.

idiots i swear to god...

alcoholism: i'll believe i'll have another beer.
GREAT RELIGION HERE.
your a fool :GTFO:

[thehoodedsmack]

Is journalism a religion? If you're going to try to understand the etymology of a word, do it correctly, and don't just nit-pick. A-theism. As in being adverse to theism, which refers to a specific doctrine concerning the nature of a God and his relation to the universe. It literally means being without a belief, care, or sometime understanding of the concept of God. Unfortunately, a lot of people these days have gotten it mixed up with an organized religion of its own, thanks primarily to the more open, activist, sometimes anti-religious movements by the "YouTube Atheists" such as Richard Coughlan, and the other people Bod likes to post in the Youtube thread.

[Bastinka]

I have learned something today, sorry for being abrupt.

Bod if you were directing the existance of god statement at me, I never mentioned any of my beliefs. Maybe Religion is a paradox?

[L0d3x]

atheists who believe in ghosts = little bit of a hypocrite, I'd say.

Though I'm not an atheist (rather an I don't know what to believe-er), I disagree with this.

Ghosts, or believing in any other form of life after death, has nothing to do with being religious. It's just another form of existence.

Religion is a lifestyle based on some beliefs, the belief that you'll go to heaven if you live a nice life. I don't see how that is related to ghosts.

Being an atheist means you don't believe in God, it says nothing about a potential form of afterlife as far as I am aware (note that I am not toooo up to date on religion in general).

Also I'm amazed at all the people saying "ghosts are fake for sure", like you people can absolutely say that with 100% certainty...

I know science says it's due to abnormal waves etc that make you see things...though that is only what scientists observe WHEN ghosts are appearing. In other words, scientists say: "weird waves cause ghosts", while it should be "ghosts cause weird waves".

Damn what a chaotic post, hope it makes some sense :downs:

[FreedomFighter7]

What is the value of Religion?

What the hell kinda question is that?

[Inferno]

What the hell kinda question is that?

A good one.

[FreedomFighter7]

Is not! :tinfoil:

[Bodzilla]

why not.

[Inferno]

Because if you ask it god will strike you down with lighting bolts or something.

May I refer you to one of my favorite religious songs ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbOlPez0Vgw)



Lyrics to Unanswered :
How much must I curse your name
And put your beliefs to shame
Before you prove yourself
And end this life?

End this life

And I’ll say a fucking prayer
Because I know it won’t be answered

Where is your god? (2x)
Where is your fucking god?

And even though I don't believe in you
I pray for the day (2x)
That you end this life

So please
Take me
Away

I want the hand of god
To come and strike me down (2x)

Where is your god? (2x)
Where is your fucking god?

For all the prayers that go unanswered (2x)
Why do you think that is?
For the families that waste their time
Open your eyes

And all your prayers will go
Unanswered
Why do you think that is?
For the families that waste their time
Open your fucking eyes

[Donut]

is it really necessary to write songs poking fun at those who follow a religion? really?

religion doesnt need to gtfo, atheism doesnt need to gtfo, these threads need to gtfo. hth.

[Aerowyn]

EDIT: Shortening up this post a bit.


Religion is a lifestyle based on some beliefs, the belief that you'll go to heaven if you live a nice life.

First of all, you're talking about CHRISTIANITY. Not every religion follows the "be good, go to heaven" model.

Secondly, Atheism is a lifestyle based on the belief that there is no higher power that dictates the order of the world, and rather that science explains our existence. It's a religion just the same. Now, Bod, a page ago, was all raaaage, said this:



IT IS NOT A FUCKING RELIGION.
stop trying to label us with you fools....
The existence of god at this stage has not and cannot be proven therefore we dont use blind faith and a lack of logic and say that he's there.


Okay, let's think here. Origin of the universe. Ok sure, Big Bang theory. But where did the matter that created the Big Bang COME FROM? (apparently the thought is that there was very hot energy that created matter when cooled) Where did that ENERGY come from? Where did the entity that created THAT energy come from?

Unless you or anyone else was around at the time, I don't think anyone can really KNOW these things. Scientists can only really make conjectures about it, "The Universe MIGHT HAVE <insert hypotheses here>". Can't that be considered blind faith? Just as much so as a person willing to believe that a higher power created the universe. Like saying, "Well, God MIGHT HAVE <insert hypotheses here>."

The complete origin of the Universe at this stage has not and cannot be proven.

Bottom line is, their guess is as good as yours, so there's really no point in getting all mad on the internet about it. It's foolish to not question things; it's foolish to take what you're told at face value.




Also I'm amazed at all the people saying "God ghosts are fake for sure", like you people can absolutely say that with 100% certainty...


Story of this thread.

[FreedomFighter7]

Why not? I dunno, I just said that to contradict him and be funny.

Seriously though, I don't understand what this question is asking.

[Heathen]

Secondly, Atheism is a lifestyle based on the belief that there is no higher power that dictates the order of the world, and rather that science explains our existence. It's a religion just the same. Now, Bod, a page ago, was all raaaage, said this:
It isn't a lifestyle. Its just a name for a specific belief system. Being atheist does not change my lifestyle one bit. A little less church, but thats obvious.




Okay, let's think here. Origin of the universe. Ok sure, Big Bang theory. But where did the matter that created the Big Bang COME FROM? (apparently the thought is that there was very hot energy that created matter when cooled) Where did that ENERGY come from? Where did the entity that created THAT energy come from?
Thing is, atheists follow the good ol' plan of "We don't know." People seem to have forgotten that that is a possibility. Atheists don't know, they don't pretend to know. They don't know if they will ever know, but they don't know. They don't make up old stories about the origin because we, humans, don't know. Religion was invented as a way to cope with that "I dont know therefore I am scared" feeling. Humans fear what we don't know, so we MADE a God in OUR OWN IMAGE, to explain the things we couldn't before an omnipotent being. But now, we have ways of learning about, and explaining the things we dont know. Therefore, religion is obsolete.


The complete origin of the Universe at this stage has not and cannot be proven.
You are correct, but the Big Bang Theory is closer to the answer than "God made everything" because of the evidence that exists. I hate sounding like its common knowledge that god isn't real and that anyone who believes it is stupid, but it is HARD to avoid.

And I have explained this before, but I think religion and its lessons are GREAT for people. Anything that teaches lessons is good, but isn't it about time that we grow out of the culty parts of it? As a species? Keep the lessons, but take the deities, dogma, and other useless bullshit out.

[L0d3x]

You are correct, but the Big Bang Theory is closer to the answer than "God made everything" because of the evidence that exists. I hate sounding like its common knowledge that god isn't real and that anyone who believes it is stupid, but it is HARD to avoid.

Thing is, you have absolutely no measure to compare Religion vs the Big Bang Theory in value of truth. It just may seem more acceptable to you.

To me, the Big Bang Theory is but an established event. It probably did happen, but what caused it éh...

The same thing goes for God etc, who/what created this God figure the Religions speak so fondly of. Nobody knows.

In other words, the Big Bang Theory is just a shift of the problem at hand.

[Kornman00]

The big bang is just a belief based on scientifical/mathmatical observations.

A God or gods are the same. A belief based on observations, just using a different system: spiritual.

Both give you an answer to the problem which we all knows begs at you "how did I get here?" *continue Talking Heads song*. A question early man wanted to know, and without a standardized math or science system they went with their minds and thus came man made standards we know as religions.

We're becoming more and more a technological society which changes us mentally either way. It should be no question why some people lose "faith" and trade their spirituality with the thing we call logic.

Like Aerowyn was getting at...it's all the same. You just have to try and look at it all from outside the box so all angles can be seen. Or else you'll just be thinking with a basised position inside of the box. The box you're suppose to be analyzing.

[Dwood]

"I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our God and our consciences, for which we were accountable to Him, and not to the priests." --Thomas Jefferson to Mrs. M. Harrison Smith, 1816. ME 15:60


"From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:545

There's one more I'm looking for where Jefferson basically says we have a right to question our religion, and either way we decide we are all the better for it.

[Heathen]

Right, it is just a theory, but as far as evidence goes, it is more likely to have happened than "God said let there be..."

[Bodzilla]

i'll tell you guys right now that there is a celestial teapot floating around our sun.
this teapot is very powerful and can mask it's presence or act through other people and make it seem as if these people where acting alone.
it influences everything, by doing nothing and its completely undetectable by any human sense or understanding.

My teapot is as or more plausible then your god.

Also if jefferson had the access to the tools and knowledge we now know and observe, do you think he'd be religious?
we already know he was a revolutionist and had a cunning mind for change and diversity, hence why he was a supported of the french during there revolution.

what makes you think that in a modern world he'd be religious at all?

[L0d3x]

Right, it is just a theory, but as far as evidence goes, it is more likely to have happened than "God said let there be..."

It doesn't seem like you're getting the point here.

Yes, the big bang seems very plausible, it most likely did happen.

But what caused the big bang? What defined the laws of nature to let the big bang even occur? It's an endless cycle of questions.

[Bodzilla]

no it's not.

it's only endless because you keep shifting the goal posts.

[L0d3x]

Heh? If you keep questioning why things are as they are, you DO get an infinite amount of questions. You can't narrow it down to one fundemental theory.

[Aerowyn]

i'll tell you guys right now that there is a celestial teapot floating around our sun.
this teapot is very powerful and can mask it's presence or act through other people and make it seem as if these people where acting alone.
it influences everything, by doing nothing and its completely undetectable by any human sense or understanding.

My teapot is as or more plausible then your god.


OMG it will be the best day of my life when it rains delicious tea :neckbeard: I'll be outside with a mug!

Also, if it's undetectable, how did you come to know about it? Many people have "experiences," much like those with ghosts, that give them a belief in a higher power. If you had an experience that alerted you to this celestial teapot, that means that your celestial teapot was detectable by your human senses.

And you can believe in your teapot just like people believe in a God, or just how some people believe their spirits are dragons and elves or the Na'vi from Avatar.... :P

[Reaper Man]

It doesn't seem like you're getting the point here.

Yes, the big bang seems very plausible, it most likely did happen.

But what caused the big bang? What defined the laws of nature to let the big bang even occur? It's an endless cycle of questions.
see:

Thing is, atheists follow the good ol' plan of "We don't know." People seem to have forgotten that that is a possibility. Atheists don't know, they don't pretend to know. They don't know if they will ever know, but they don't know. They don't make up old stories about the origin because we, humans, don't know. Religion was invented as a way to cope with that "I dont know therefore I am scared" feeling. Humans fear what we don't know, so we MADE a God in OUR OWN IMAGE, to explain the things we couldn't before an omnipotent being. But now, we have ways of learning about, and explaining the things we dont know. Therefore, religion is obsolete.
I agree completely with Heathen and have been making his exact points for years.

Just because things exist, does not mean things require or have intrinsic meaning. If the evolutionary theory for the origin of life is true - life forming due to the formation of proteins - then life formed randomly and is therefore ultimately meaningless.

This is not to say atheists promote ignorance, even though some questions seem unanswerable, people still strive to solve them. It is human nature to be inquisitive; "God did it" is pretty much a massive stopper on inquisition. It seems to me to be a very shallow answer, like when a young kid asks an adult how a computer works, and they tell the kid "Magic."


OMG it will be the best day of my life when it rains delicious tea :neckbeard: I'll be outside with a mug!

Also, if it's undetectable, how did you come to know about it? Many people have "experiences," much like those with ghosts, that give them a belief in a higher power. If you had an experience that alerted you to this celestial teapot, that means that your celestial teapot was detectable by your human senses.

And you can believe in your teapot just like people believe in a God, or just how some people believe their spirits are dragons and elves or the Na'vi from Avatar.... :P

Ugh, Bod got the Celestial Teapot argument all wrong. Here is the correct, original argument:


If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

It is my belief, that if you're going to be debating theology, you'd better know your stuff first.

[blind]

in the great words of jules winnfield (samuel l jackson)
"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

people need to get off their high horse about atheism and whatnot.

[Dwood]

Also if jefferson had the access to the tools and knowledge we now know and observe, do you think he'd be religious?
we already know he was a revolutionist and had a cunning mind for change and diversity, hence why he was a supported of the french during there revolution.

what makes you think that in a modern world he'd be religious at all?

Your question is kind of a non-issue because he doesn't live now. Back then people had the same problems with religion that we have today... Your question/point is besides the message either way, Bod.

It's not that he himself was religious but the things he believed in, ie "Freedom of Religion" and by that, the ability to choose between one religion and the other.

Don't force your beliefs down others if you believe in the ideals of being able to choose a religion, making one yourself, or in many cases, not choosing a religion at all.

The way you seem to act against religions like you do Bod makes your version of Atheism more of a religion than an ideal.

Us religious people won't force our ideas down your throats if you dont force yours down ours... there's this thing we have.... it's called toleration. You tolerate religion and religion will tolerate you.

[ICEE]

in the great words of jules winnfield (samuel l jackson)
"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

people need to get off their high horse about atheism and whatnot.

You can't limit that to atheists. Catholics (for example) have their pope to tell everyone what god thinks and how to act. Every religion/form of belief needs to get off its high horse and stop telling people how to live (unless they're a part of that religion).

[blind]

You can't limit that to atheists. Catholics (for example) have their pope to tell everyone what god thinks and how to act. Every religion/form of belief needs to get off its high horse and stop telling people how to live (unless they're a part of that religion).
i was just saying it like that because the majority here are atheist

[=sw=warlord]

Us religious people won't force our ideas down your throats if you dont force yours down ours... there's this thing we have.... it's called toleration. You tolerate religion and religion will tolerate you.
:XD:
Im sorry, what?
Since when have religions been tolerant to anything but themselves?
Throughout time, many religions have frowned upon homosexuality, diesased people and many other subjects, Is it not the truth that religion has caused more wars throughout human history than any other thing?
I literaly nearly fell of my chair when i read that line.
you would not believe how many people i've had try and convert me from atheism to their religion and seen their response when i've kindly declined, it's almost laughable.

[Heathen]

It doesn't seem like you're getting the point here.

Yes, the big bang seems very plausible, it most likely did happen.

But what caused the big bang? What defined the laws of nature to let the big bang even occur? It's an endless cycle of questions.

"God" poses the same question, but doesn't even attempt to answer it.

[Heathen]

:XD:
Im sorry, what?
Since when have religions been tolerant to anything but themselves?
Throughout time, many religions have frowned upon homosexuality, diesased people and many other subjects, Is it not the truth that religion has caused more wars throughout human history than any other thing?
I literaly nearly fell of my chair when i read that line.
you would not believe how many people i've had try and convert me from atheism to their religion and seen their response when i've kindly declined, it's almost laughable.

Plus his religion believes black people are sin.

[Inferno]

Religion causes more problems than it's worth. Prejudice, Genocide, False Sense of Superiority, and False Hope.

Totally worth it I'm sure.

[Heathen]

Inferno, I can GUARANTEE you those things would exist just as prevalently without religion.

That is the bad side of religion I talk about sometimes though.

[paladin]

Inferno, I can GUARANTEE you those things would exist just as prevalently without religion.

That is the bad side of religion I talk about sometimes though.

Hilter pretty much did all of the above not in the name of religion.

[Bodzilla]

atheism has no flag, nothing to march against.

you think it's atheism that made him hate jews?
lmfao.

[paladin]

atheism has no flag, nothing to march against.

you think it's atheism that made him hate jews?
lmfao.


Did I say that? No.

[Inferno]

Hilter pretty much did all of the above not in the name of religion.

KILL THE FUCKING JEWS

[Heathen]

I don't think bod was directing that towards you pali.

[paladin]

I don't think bod was directing that towards you pali.


I pretty sure he was...

There was no talk about killing jews until i mentioned Hitler. Regardless, he purposely took what I said out of context to prove that he has a bigger epenis

[rossmum]

Religion causes more problems than it's worth. Prejudice, Genocide, False Sense of Superiority, and False Hope.

Totally worth it I'm sure.
people are so dumb that religion or not they would behave in exactly the same revolting manner

the biggest irony of it all is that religion lays down all these basic common dogfuck moral guidelines but between mistranslations, sneaky additions and edits, and just people reading into things too much or too little, it ends up actually causing a lot of the world's problems

i see no reason to force atheism upon people but i also think that the really extreme crew need a serious reality check. give me moderation or give me a giant stick

[paladin]

i see no reason to force atheism upon people but i also think that the really extreme crew need a serious reality check. give me moderation or give me a giant stick
:golfclap:

walk softly and carry a big stick

[neuro]

just to elaborate on my first post which apparently threw up some dust. the fact life is pointless, doesnt mean you shouldnt enjoy it.

you've only got one life, and you're damn lucky to have a life, so make the best of it, and enjoy every second of it.

that doesnt change the fact life is pointless though.
what's the meaning of life?
answer: there is none, therefore it doesnt have a point, and therefore is pointless.

i'm not saying it's not great to be alive, or that i'm not happy, quite the opposite actually. i love my life, i have a great job, a great girl at my side, and a lovely appartment, and a hillarious cat.

i'd also like to point out that i'm not against religion.
i'm against 'organised' religion.
christianity (and all it's sub-beliefs), muslimism (whatever the heck its called), etc.

[paladin]

what's the meaning of life?
answer: there is none, therefore it doesnt have a point, and therefore is pointless.


Please, tell me how you know this is the answer, let alone the correct one.

[Huero]

Please, tell me how you know this is the answer, let alone the correct one.

it kind of goes along with the whole atheist thing

[Yoko]

Please, tell me how you know this is the answer, let alone the correct one.
The point of life is to die. No one will remember you after a century or so, and when the sun goes supernova in 10 billion years your corpse will be gone forever if it hasn't completely deteriorated by then. You will never come back to life, and if humans do discover a way to restore life, your life will be too insignificant to restore, not to mention the overpopulation. Enjoy.

[Dwood]

The meaning of life is to give life meaning. ie you give your own life its own meaning... If you believe there is no meaning to life then that is your own perspective.

I mean I think people who try to force ideas down others' throats want everyone to despair with them. Just my take.

[rossmum]

is it just me or have you come a long way in terms of openness to other ideas since coming here

good on you for that

[paladin]

What about people in history. We certainly know of King Tut (3351 years old), Julius Caesar (2110 years old), King Richard the Lion Heart (853 years old). We certainly remember people after they die. More historically, only more famous leaders, but I can trace my family tree back to the 1600's. I can guarantee you, especially with todays technology, we will be remembered.

And if you think the point to life is to just die, you might as well slit your wrists now.

[Heathen]

it kind of goes along with the whole atheist thing

Fraid not. If anything, atheism leads to the idea of making your own destiny. There is no god telling you that life is for worshiping me and anything else is a waste.

Why spend your whole life working for a boss that you never see or meet?

Incidentally, Dwood's answer was the best



the meaning of life is to give life meaning

[Ganon]

I can guarantee you, especially with todays technology, we will be remembered.

I hope you don't mean for long. From the time history has been recorded until now, it's literally been 5 mins in the grand scheme of things. Current technology is no more impressive than what people thought about present day technology 1000 years ago. King Tut, Joan of Arc, Harry the caveman are yesterdays news. The evidence of human life is fragile beyond comprehension, and still will be in a million years. You are in fact perfectly reasonable if you mean 500 years from now your faggot grandson with his spandex spacesuit and spaceship is going to see your name somewhere on his family tree. Other than that, our history won't be around in a future time where humans have had an impact on this universe in any way, shape or form. In the long term, history has no meaning. Different story in the short term, depends how you look at it.


The point of life is to die.
Then what is the holdup?

put it on youtube


the meaning of life is to give life meaningp much

[Yoko]

King Tut (3351 years old), Julius Caesar (2110 years old), King Richard the Lion Heart (853 years old).
>naming historically significant people that played a key part in shaping the world
>
your life will be too insignificant

Also, what you do in life doesn't equal the meaning of life. Do whatever you want with your life, but you can't avoid death.

[paladin]

I dont think anyone in this discussion has said such thing.

[Dwood]

is it just me or have you come a long way in terms of openness to other ideas since coming here

good on you for that

Thanks. i should skim over my posts from when i joined one of these days lol

[thehoodedsmack]

You're all a bunch of crybabies if you think your life is meaningless. Your purpose and drive here on Earth is the continuation of human evolution: possibly the greatest endeavor in the known universe. Think of all the crazy things we've been doing lately: the LHC, water-powered cars, hell, remember that thread that was here about the glow-in-the-dark puppies? We're advanced people, gentlemen, but we've still got a ways to go.

Now imagine, if you will, more effective uses of our gene-splicing and atom-smashing capabilities. Fast-growing lumber, natural synthetic plastics and metals, plants and animals perfect for consumption. Make no mistake, people, we are in no golden age of technology. Despite the flashy, slim, savvy products and styles of the recent generations, we are still a wasteful and underdeveloped species, in comparison to what we could potentially achieve.

Today, we possess scarce resources that will never replenish. Earth is a challenge, people: a challenge to use this home planet's energy to develop a sustainable, advanced way of life. But instead of using those resources for research into our future, we use them primarily for production and consumption. Until we reach the point in human history where we can inhabit a planet without harm, where we can interact directly and cooperatively with the universe's creations, your life is far from meaningless.

You are a forerunner of the better tomorrow. As is every man, woman, and child who puts forth their effort not to squander such a brilliant occurrence in nature. And if the world lasts long enough to allow such a humanitarian revolution, then there is no question, that by their ideals, their sacrifice, and their love of their fellow man, they will be remembered.

[Inferno]

Actually humans are more or less a virus to this planet. We are destroying things 10x faster than we are creating them.

The pre-civilization/indians did a much better job than us.

[Dwood]

You're all a bunch of crybabies if you think your life is meaningless. Your purpose and drive here on Earth is the continuation of human evolution: possibly the greatest endeavor in the known universe. Think of all the crazy things we've been doing lately: the LHC, water-powered cars, hell, remember that thread that was here about the glow-in-the-dark puppies? We're advanced people, gentlemen, but we've still got a ways to go.

Now imagine, if you will, more effective uses of our gene-splicing and atom-smashing capabilities. Fast-growing lumber, natural synthetic plastics and metals, plants and animals perfect for consumption. Make no mistake, people, we are in no golden age of technology. Despite the flashy, slim, savvy products and styles of the recent generations, we are still a wasteful and underdeveloped species, in comparison to what we could potentially achieve.

Today, we possess scarce resources that will never replenish. Earth is a challenge, people: a challenge to use this home planet's energy to develop a sustainable, advanced way of life. But instead of using those resources for research into our future, we use them primarily for production and consumption. Until we reach the point in human history where we can inhabit a planet without harm, where we can interact directly and cooperatively with the universe's creations, your life is far from meaningless.

You are a forerunner of the better tomorrow. As is every man, woman, and child who puts forth their effort not to squander such a brilliant occurrence in nature. And if the world lasts long enough to allow such a humanitarian revolution, then there is no question, that by their ideals, their sacrifice, and their love of their fellow man, they will be remembered.

Smack for most inspirational post of the month award.

[Dwood]

Actually humans are more or less a virus to this planet. We are destroying things 10x faster than we are creating them.

The pre-civilization/indians did a much better job than us.

Ok then guys lets slit our wrists over nature and rejoin the forest.

[Inferno]

I'm not a nature freak. I just want to point out that we have fucked up the planet beyond recognition.

[blind]

I'm not a nature freak. I just want to point out that we have fucked up the planet beyond recognition.
who cares
white power

[Inferno]

who cares
white power

Best poster~

[Botolf]

As a former Christian Fundie nutter, the value of religion for me was a fuzzy blanket. Of course, no fuzzy blanket is worth carrying around if bullshit is required to keep the strings together.