Discussion/Debate Subforum

[Aerowyn]

I am really tired of going into Off Topic and seeing a bunch of shit threads that everyone gets all mad in.Like this (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20177), or this (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20147), or this (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20191), and this (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20217) too. Provocative threads such as this really only create frustrated arguments and flamewars, when what we really need is some moderation.
I think we need a subforum of Off Topic/Community Discussion that is strictly for serious discussions and debates about politics/religion/etc.

We could set some general etiquette rules that the posters must follow or face infractions/punishments.

That way, people that LIKE to debate (looking at Bod and Ross for this one, haha) will have a place to do it WITHOUT cluttering the Off Topic forum. People uninterested in the drama could just ignore the subforum, and everything is all hunky-dory.

y/n?

[teh lag]

We were talking about this in the mod forum. I think the only real issue to work out is what we count as "serious discussion" - the gray areas between "X thing happened", "Y controversial thing happened" and "what do you think of Z".

I'm all for it.


We could set some general etiquette rules that the posters must follow or face infractions/punishments.

That especially. Ideally I'd like to see a system where people who just run in and go "lol ur fukin stupid" get access revoked, but that would probably prove a bitch to maintain.

[Aerowyn]

That especially. Ideally I'd like to see a system where people who just run in and go "lol ur fukin stupid" get access revoked, but that would probably prove a bitch to maintain.

Make our normal infractions worth MORE points in that thread. Things like trolling, shitposting, eRage, flaming... we know those are not appropriate in a subforum meant for serious debates and discussion, and a sticky can make that clear.

It would take less infractions to earn a ban that way, and it would discourage people that are maybe uneducated/ignorant on a subject to stay out if they can't keep up with the debate. It would encourage thoughtful, substantial posts rather than one worded zingers with a :allears: at the end.

[sdavis117]

Is it possible to disable people giving/receiving reputation in a subforum? If it is, and you were to make a subforum like this, it would be a good idea to get rid of the reputation factor in the subforum. I can see people getting neg repped for merely having an opinion.

[FRain]

We were talking about this in the mod forum. I think the only real issue to work out is what we count as "serious discussion" - the gray areas between "X thing happened", "Y controversial thing happened" and "what do you think of Z".

I'm all for it.



That especially. Ideally I'd like to see a system where people who just run in and go "lol ur fukin stupid" get access revoked, but that would probably prove a bitch to maintain.

lol ur fukin stupid Great idea, I'd love to have a section

[teh lag]

And you need to try less.

[thehoodedsmack]

I like this idea. But yeah, stricter rules to allow less trolling. Motion presented to name it "Serious Business".

[Horns]

Is it possible to disable people giving/receiving reputation in a subforum? If it is, and you were to make a subforum like this, it would be a good idea to get rid of the reputation factor in the subforum. I can see people getting neg repped for merely having an opinion.

Because rep matters, and we wouldn't want anyone butthurt cause someone negged them!

[Dwood]

Is it possible to disable people giving/receiving reputation in a subforum? If it is, and you were to make a subforum like this, it would be a good idea to get rid of the reputation factor in the subforum. I can see people getting neg repped for merely having an opinion.

This. this. this. i would like to see those things if such a place were made, only dont make it a subforum of offtopic. E: Disable neg rep in that forum and make plus rep worth half or something

[Aerowyn]

Because rep matters, and we wouldn't want anyone butthurt cause someone negged them!

It's not the -rep that is important. It's the reason for giving it. If everyone in a thread about, say, gun control felt that guns were cool, and then ONE PERSON came in saying, "Oh man, guns are bad." it would be a -rep bomb, which isn't really fair to that person if they have given sufficient evidence to back their feelings.

It would be less drama that way.


only dont make it a subforum of offtopic.
It doesn't belong in the Community Discussion forum, since that's site-specific. I thought Off Topic would be the best place for it. But I could be wrong. :)

[flibitijibibo]

+1 vote for the new subforum. One less pile to sift through. Also, having it in one place allows for a much better, more specialized set of rules to avoid excessive shit while, at the same time, allowing other forums to run without having excessive guidelines.

Question about the rep concerns: Can't people report to staff for idiotic uses of rep?

[Dwood]

It is discussion and involves the community so...?

[Aerowyn]

It is discussion and involves the community so...?

The Modacity Community Discussion's description is:
"Community projects, "Post your ..." threads, introductions, birthday threads, questions for members, anything related to Modacity or its community"

Seeing as issues of politics, religion, etc are NOT related to Modacity or the community like birthdays and community projects, I figured it didn't belong there.



Question about the rep concerns: Can't people report to staff for idiotic uses of rep?

I think that would just add to the work that mods have to deal with. -rep bombs based on differing opinions would sadly be inevitable, and even if the -rep was justified, I can only imagine how many people would report it just because they're butthurt about it.

[Heathen]

I am against it because it will be hard to hold more than one discussion at a time.

Maybe instead of a discussions thread, why not a discussion board.

e: and after reading, I see thats what you said.

[Huero]

Keep making specialized forums for stuff, and there won't be much to talk about in General Discussion. Just saying.

[Dwood]

I disagree, we need more stuff to stimulate activity.

[Huero]

Moving serious discussions won't increase activity, it will just move serious discussions to a serious discussions subforum.

[Jelly]

Is it possible to disable people giving/receiving reputation in a subforum? If it is, and you were to make a subforum like this, it would be a good idea to get rid of the reputation factor in the subforum. I can see people getting neg repped for merely having an opinion.
This is literally the only reason I don't post in a lot of the one-sided debate threads in OT.

[Con]

I think a lot of the threads in OT right now could be classified as serious discussion threads. IMO OT isn't crowded at all, so I don't think we need a separate subforum. Instead we should use something to mark serious threads so posters know a certain set of extra rules apply. We could use a new thread icon (like these: http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/posticons/3d.png) to specify which threads have these rules.

[Rook]

Is it possible to disable people giving/receiving reputation in a subforum? If it is, and you were to make a subforum like this, it would be a good idea to get rid of the reputation factor in the subforum. I can see people getting neg repped for merely having an opinion.

-Create discussion subforum
-Disable rep in that subforum

Or if you do the http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/posticons/3d.png icon like Con said above disable rep in those threads.

[jcap]

I'd say put community discussion and OT back together, then make serious discussion

[Rook]

Community discussion has a fair amount of topics in there that fit its category. If anything I really like the idea of special icons in OT.

[Limited]

I'm for this debate section, although it will definitely have to be a serious place. I'm pretty sure members here can have a nice civil chat about things.

[CN3089]

As long we get a Laissez's Faire too

[paladin]

As long we get a Laissez's Faire too

I would say any debate goes, as long as its not a personal attack.

[Kornman00]

I would say any debate goes, as long as its not a personal attack.
Nor an attack on a group of people or a belief.

Which means you couldn't attack m00k or his furry friends :-3

We have a Prefix selector for HaloCE Release threads...don't see why we can't have one in OT

[paladin]

I dunno, those furrys really get to me

[Bodzilla]

I dont agree with it, while it's breakign apart too levels of posting in off-topic what will Off-topic have after it.

So if serious philosophical discussions are out, general stuff/ personal and +1 threads/ birthdays (modacity community discussion) Articles pictures and vids are in one place....


whats left :S

[Bodzilla]

It's not the -rep that is important. It's the reason for giving it. If everyone in a thread about, say, gun control felt that guns were cool, and then ONE PERSON came in saying, "Oh man, guns are bad." it would be a -rep bomb, which isn't really fair to that person if they have given sufficient evidence to back their feelings.

For the record i've never -repped a person for an opinion, Only for the way they express it.
For instance on matters of religion and climate change me ans snaf are polar opposites, but as far as i can tell we've never -repped each other over it.
and that goes for others as well such as dwood and co.

He'll claim different but it's never been based solely on his opinion.
If people open there mouth they open themselves to criticism.
sorry.

[paladin]

nobody should get -rep for an opinion. If you did get a -rep for me in such a thread, it wasnt for your opinion. it was because you were either being extremely irrelevant with your post or you were just plain fucking stupid about something not related or someone else

[Heathen]

I pretty much never -rep, but if I do, its because I disagree with a -rep to me, if I notice it in time to make it valid, or if they did something REALLY stupid.

E: and anyone I have -'d can back me up on this. The comments on my -'s are usually something like "Man, I seriously HATE - repping, but [reason]. I will + you when I get a chance."

[Dwood]

Can we have a SRS discussion forum now?

[blind]

teh lag should moderate a new serious business forum and i should mod off topic.

[Dwood]

I would like to use Kyon's posting in my 'Hey Americans' thread as proof that we need a srs discussion forum and its own dedicated mod.

[paladin]

Agree

[Bodzilla]

what cause he made fun of you by pointing out MASSIVE holes in your arguments?

:ugh:

[teh lag]

what cause he made fun of you by pointing out MASSIVE holes in your arguments?

:ugh:

Yes. That is exactly what was the problem. That, and that alone.

Look, I'm fine with anyone raising whatever points they want to (and I agree with many of the ones in question) but we all know that when a certain line is crossed any semblance of "civility" in a discussion goes out the window. Things need to stay behind that line if we're going to have debate that doesn't end in a locked thread and red and yellow all over posts.

[Dwood]

Your points become moot when you begin to act like you are better than someone just because you disagree with them.

[teh lag]

I wouldn't quite say that. My interest is in maintaining coherent and civil debate; I couldn't care less about how you prove your point as long as it's not going to make people mad if you call them dumb (the problem here is that people do get mad about it, leading to all kinds of problems).

[paladin]

what cause he made fun of you by pointing out MASSIVE holes in your arguments?

:ugh:

No, it's because everything he says is sarcastic and it doesn't belong in a debate topic.

And since when is saying 'America is fucked, moved to France' a legitimate argument for health care reform? That just is one of many points that show that he doesn't belong unless he is being serious.

Also, you're just proving yourself more and more arrogant every time you post childish remarks towards me. You think you're so much better, but when defending yourself against my arguments, all you do is throw mud and personal attacks. Grow up.

[flibitijibibo]

Does anyone else find it weird that the serious debate/discussion subforum thread became a serious debate/discussion?

So uh, I've read the last page twice and I don't know what the shit is going on. Are you guys worried about the moderation of serious/stupid/troll/adminabuselolol comments?

[Heathen]

No, it's because everything he says is sarcastic and it doesn't belong in a debate topic.

And since when is saying 'America is fucked, moved to France' a legitimate argument for health care reform? That just is one of many points that show that he doesn't belong unless he is being serious.

Also, you're just proving yourself more and more arrogant every time you post childish remarks towards me. You think you're so much better, but when defending yourself against my arguments, all you do is throw mud and personal attacks. Grow up.

Kyon is only a troll and not going to be serious. But its okay because he is friends with the mods.

[paladin]

Kyon is only a troll and not going to be serious. But its okay because he is friends with the mods.

An even greater reason he does not belong in a serious discussion thread.


Does anyone else find it weird that the serious debate/discussion subforum thread became a serious debate/discussion?

So uh, I've read the last page twice and I don't know what the shit is going on. Are you guys worried about the moderation of serious/stupid/troll/adminabuselolol comments?

This thread about the creation of a serious business sub forum, where people can have legitimate discussion without the interference of people shit posting/ trolling. The sub forum would have to have non-bias strict moderation, with little or zero tolerance for trolling/ flaming/ shit posting. Some people, or at least me, would like to see said sub forum created simply because serious threads in OT or MCD end up getting trolled or shit fucked in the ass with little to no consequences for the offender. IMO, in such a sub forum, any post not relevant to the thread, personal attack, shit post, flame, troll would be an instant infraction. No questions asked. No reversal. No excuses.

[flibitijibibo]

I would be in that "some people" up ^thar then.

Might be an extra lock or two when it's new, but it's a lot better than having to see an OT go on for days and days wondering why it hasn't been locked for derailing, flamewars, and whatever rules broken at that point which lead me to go to /v/ for a while just to balance it out.

[Dwood]

The sub forum would have to have non-bias strict moderation, with little or zero tolerance for trolling/ flaming/ shit posting. Some people, or at least me, would like to see said sub forum created simply because serious threads in OT or MCD end up getting trolled or shit fucked in the ass with little to no consequences for the offender. IMO, in such a sub forum, any post not relevant to the thread, personal attack, shit post, flame, troll would be an instant infraction. No questions asked. No reversal. No excuses.

I agree. Another thing, I would like to see is like have all -rep is worth less than what it is in a normal subforum or something.

[paladin]

how about just make +/- against the rules in such a forum

[flibitijibibo]

Have a dedicated mod with access to such information and that'd work out much better.

[Dwood]

Have a dedicated mod with access to such information and that'd work out much better.

Just disable rep in the subforum all-together?

[Bodzilla]

Kyon is only a troll and not going to be serious. But its okay because he is friends with the mods.
he raise's several very important points and counters others.

personally if i think people are going to take the way he does it personally ya's need to harden the fuck up.
it's not that big a deal a little ridicule every now and then.

The ability to laugh at yourself or have others laugh at you and not have a cry about it is a very important lesson.


I agree. Another thing, I would like to see is like have all -rep is worth less than what it is in a normal subforum or something.

- rep is already half the power of a +rep as it is.

and reps not that big a deal.
you know the reason why i got and wanted rep?

n00b had more and i just could not allow that to continue!


Have a dedicated mod with access to such information and that'd work out much better.
the only serious candidates for that that have enough backround knowledge in most things to do this is quiet simply, rossmum and CN.

Say what you want about the way they do shit, they generally know exactly what they're talking about.

[paladin]

They don't have to have knowledge on an issue to be a good mod. In fact they should have NONE so they have no bias or opinion on the subject. The only thing they are needed for is to make sure people follow the rules and stay on topic, not to make sure people's sources are cited correctly. Also, make it a sub forum only visible to certain people. Have people basically apply and if they cant follow the rules, simply don't allow them to see the forum.

[Dwood]

They don't have to have knowledge on an issue to be a good mod. In fact they should have NONE so they have no bias or opinion on the subject.


Former part of this statement, yes. Latter part: Not going to happen. The admins should just find someone who they believe would be responsible in such a position. For all we know, the only person on Admin status who likes the subforum idea is teh lag.



Also, make it a sub forum only visible to certain people. Have people basically apply and if they cant follow the rules, simply don't allow them to see the forum.

No, the way that makes the most sense to me imho is to make it so that the mod or admin or whatever it is has absolute rule in that public section, and can lock people out of it... like the cmt section used to be, as well as the (Fluffyducky[?]) section.


E: @ Bod. Kyon may have raised valid points, however he clearly shows an inability to debate in a serious manner without crappening the/a thread without turning to "America sucks, move to France", among other things that warranted me to ask lag to fix it. If Kyon would have posted those good points in 1 post without crapping up the thread (via about 3-6 straight posts) then he would have been regarded as I did Rossmum earlier in the thread.

[blind]

They don't have to have knowledge on an issue to be a good mod. In fact they should have NONE so they have no bias or opinion on the subject. The only thing they are needed for is to make sure people follow the rules and stay on topic, not to make sure people's sources are cited correctly. Also, make it a sub forum only visible to certain people. Have people basically apply and if they cant follow the rules, simply don't allow them to see the forum.
~*tpblind*~

[Timo]

Why not start is as a forum that everyone can access, then block the people that are acting up?

[paladin]

Why not start is as a forum that everyone can access, then block the people that are acting up?

Same thing, as long as theres a filter system.

[Donut]

Because rep matters, and we wouldn't want anyone butthurt cause someone negged them!
what is the point of rep? im sure its lost almost all of its value on here (i mean seriously, I have a glowie? what have i done?). ideally rep is a reflection of how other people as a whole see your posting. it would be ignorant to try to say people dont get emotional and fired up in those debate threads. people getting or giving minus OR plus rep merely for disagreeing with someone else ruins this concept of "opinion of your posts". obviously if somebody comes in calling everyone else an ignoramus, then a -rep is in order, or if someone makes a good point, then they deserve a +rep, but for most cases, rep is not necessary in a debate thread.

the above is, of course, in an ideal situation which as far as rep goes we do not have here.
E: and i realize its an off topic thread, but why do we even have those threads where the OP will say something that they know will start an argument?

[CN3089]

People can't handle others pointing out how dumb their opinions are, demand a forum dedicated to the ideal of cultural relativism, film at 11 :allears:




also sometimes I forget these forums don't have a post merger, welp

[Jelly]

Why not start is as a forum that everyone can access, then block the people that are acting up?
ahahaha, nice

[paladin]

People can't handle others pointing out how dumb their opinions are, demand a forum dedicated to the ideal of cultural relativism, film at 11 :allears:




also sometimes I forget these forums don't have a post merger, welp

What a shitty opinion.

[CN3089]

What a shitty opinion.

n-no..

[paladin]

n-no..

What cant take the heat? make a thread about it....

[Heathen]

personally if i think people are going to take the way he does it personally ya's need to harden the fuck up.

shit, I think its funny.

[blind]

~*tpblind*~
quoted for truth!

[CN3089]

What cant take the heat? make a thread about it....

guys, we need a forum where I can discuss serious posting matters without paladin screwing it all up by calling me out :maddowns:

[paladin]

Put myself in context with bod's remarks...



personally if i think people are going to take the way he does it personally ya's need to harden the fuck up.


.