"Jesus rifles"

[FreedomFighter7]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769

Apparently the contractor which makes scopes for the US military has bee putting references to the bible on us scopes, in what looks to be the serial number. This has caused troops to call them "jesus rifles".

Very interesting.

[Limited]

Hmm, interesting stuff, I can see why people dont want it on there to allow an open mind.

But the countries motto is: "God Bless America"...

Scratch that, although I do find it funny Martin Bashir is working for ABC news.

[Amit]

Great. More controversy being spilled into this forum.

[Inferno]

Who gives a fuck?

Stupid people making a big deal out of nothing. Like always. </thread>

[Cojafoji]

It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal. The scopes are being used to kill other human beings, and let's be honest, there are no atheists in fox holes, so maybe the reminder is nice? who cares.

[paladin]

I don't see why its a big deal.... Its a fucking number on the rifle. The only reason why people are making a stink because its not PC. Next there not going to be able to draw and write on their tanks, helicopters and ect...

Wheres Korn... we need his input

[SnaFuBAR]

The thing is, though, it goes beyond the numbers on the sights. They're distributing bibles in afghan languages, a direct violation of order number 1. Not a war on Islam? Not too convincing.

[paladin]

You never know, some afghans could christian, though its highly unlikely.

[thehoodedsmack]

I thought this was going to be about American priests blessing their guns or something. Or some right-wing activist group. A little disappointed.

[Limited]

If I saw the sight, and no one explained the numbers and the meaning, I would have no idea what it was referencing, highlighting this has just helped alot of people understand it now.

That bible distributing is more of a big who-har, perhaps they were just giving them the option? I dont know.

[Heathen]

let them make what they want.

[Kalub]

Oh god damn it, what kind of dumb world I fucking live in... Fuck.


I mean, really? REALLY? It's a fucking serial number. Get the hell over it.


God isn't real. If the company owner wants to scribe is products with references to passages in a stupid book then let him.

[Heathen]

book isn't dumb fyi.

It teaches lessons.

Its its followers that are usually dumb.

[rossmum]

old. some dudes made a pistol with the fucking first amendment engraved on it and all that shit. if they want to do silly things, fine.

i don't see any harm until they start actually forcing christianity on the locals.

[Kornman00]

old. some dudes made a pistol with the fucking first amendment engraved on it and all that shit. if they want to do silly things, fine.

i don't see any harm until they start actually forcing christianity on the locals.
Except I'm pretty sure the US gov't wasn't paying out contracts totalling in the billions for those said guns. You did watch the video right? This is about a America's Army...not just about guns in general. Things don't just happen over night. They happen in waves. It's the military we're talking about here, you should know that.


Trijicon? Or is it really Trinity Jihad Contractors?

The company admitted to doing it intentially. Personally, I think this is wrong. The video says it all. I really loath how much religion seeds over into our militaries. I haven't met too many Chaplins that I've liked either (not that I see them for religious reasons mind you).

[rossmum]

while that's true the us government can tell them to fuck right off should they so desire and as long as they can produce the things to work properly, it's not really an issue at this level. if they start trying to quote the bible in the manual, it's an issue.

also, all of the chaplains i've met have been pretty chill guys. guess our army is just cooler than yours :allears:

i agree they shouldn't be doing it, but at present, it seems it's being blown a bit out of proportion.

e/ hahah what the fuck i didn't know my dad was a chief correspondent!!!!

also i can see why they'd cause trouble what w/ people thinking it's a sign but it's right there, the founder was christian. it's not out of some profound desire to wipe out other religions.

also sweet! they're getting up soldiers for painting ironic slogans on their tanks and shit, what next? no writing your name on your kit lest it offend some big gay outsider somewhere?

[Kornman00]

it's not really an issue at this level. if they start trying to quote the bible in the manual, it's an issue.

also, all of the chaplains i've met have been pretty chill guys. guess our army is just cooler than yours :allears:
That's almost like saying "as long as the only the leader's are full of religious creed but the foot soldiers aren't, things are k. kk?" There is a reason why there is a separation of state and church. Well, there is suppose to be a separation. In a perfect world.

And your Army isn't fully engaged in two overseas wars against "terror", plus keeping existing operations in power. The war which isn't actually a war vOv. Different countries will always have different armies. I really could care less if yours was cooler. I didn't join the Army because I thought it was "cool", nor because I'm some overzealous patriot. I did it because I could (less than 2% of the population can say that) and for the opportunities I could gain from it for only 4 active years.

[Kornman00]

also sweet! they're getting up soldiers for painting ironic slogans on their tanks and shit, what next? no writing your name on your kit lest it offend some big gay outsider somewhere?
The reason Americans are known as Americans. We're so goddamn full of ourselves everywhere we go. We're ambassadors to our country when we're on the outside, especially those in the fucking military. A military shouldn't be the one painting a picture of the source country's people, especially when we're the invaders.

[Kalub]

Still think this is stupid...

[Kornman00]

God isn't real. If the company owner wants to scribe is products with references to passages in a stupid book then let him.
So, you like endorsing this company? That's what you're doing, unless you don't pay taxes.

[Cojafoji]

So, you like endorsing this company? That's what you're doing, unless you don't pay taxes.
Do you really care that much? If you do, then write your senator & rep and complain. Otherwise, you should take a barbiturate and relax.

[=sw=warlord]

Well one thing's for sure, they certainly won't be respawning after 3 days.

[Kornman00]

I was pointing out a fact as his post seemed to be careless because he doesn't think it has any affect on him or his life. On the contrary, it is a gov't, whom isn't suppose to be tied to any one religion, using his tax payer money to buy products which have explicit religious symbols placed purposly on them. The gov't should do what it can to show that it doesn't favor or pick contracts based on religious followings. It only fuels an ongoing fire.

However, I've encounter and witness too many fires at work and in my "industry". The only effect contacting my Republican statesmen in Texas would be of bringing up the issue. The media has already covered this and questioned the gov't. Someone has already called the fire dept. why should I waste time and resources calling again?

[Kalub]

I pay taxes, but if I could I wouldn't. However, I could give a fat babies dick about an encoded serial number. It's just that, a number. It has no meaning unless you know what the passage says.

The CEO of the company has been doing the serial number thing for years, before the war in Iraq, so just because we just now found out about it doesn't make it a war on Islam. (Which is another shitty religion)

Honestly, it's a family/old ceo tradition that only means something if you dilly-dally on it. And to do just that is a retarded waste of energy. So let's just move on. Spending money to fix something that is so minuscule as an encoded serial number is sofa-king...


Makes me rage. I claim no side on the argument, I just want it to be ignored.

[PenGuin1362]

It's just a reference on a gun sight, it affects no one, is not forcing anything upon anyone. Quit being little fucking whiny bitches about the SLIGHTEST god damn things because your rich fucking lives are so boring, you just need something to complain about. Go cry more about it. There are other weapon sight manufacturers out there, if your faggot ass is so offended go buy from another company. Fucking homos

And do these sights walk up to the little fucking villages of Iraq and say "HEY YOU B CHRISTIAN NOW. KTHNXBAI" No. Half of them can't even fucking see the numbers on the rifle cause they'll never get that close anyway. Do humanity a favor, press a barrel firmly against your head and send burning lead tearing through your skull and brain.

/rant.

[rossmum]

That's almost like saying "as long as the only the leader's are full of religious creed but the foot soldiers aren't, things are k. kk?" There is a reason why there is a separation of state and church. Well, there is suppose to be a separation. In a perfect world.
we all know that doesn't happen in the us. it doesn't even happen in australia. the government has to pander to everyone, including the bible bashers. i'm not particularly religious myself and would rather see laws formulated on the basis of logic rather than any one religion's morals, but it just doesn't work that way.


And your Army isn't fully engaged in two overseas wars against "terror", plus keeping existing operations in power. The war which isn't actually a war vOv. Different countries will always have different armies. I really could care less if yours was cooler. I didn't join the Army because I thought it was "cool", nor because I'm some overzealous patriot. I did it because I could (less than 2% of the population can say that) and for the opportunities I could gain from it for only 4 active years.
a) i was having a lol
b) afghanistan, iraq (although only secdet is there now), east timor, fiji, the solomons, plus deployments every time there's unrest in the pacific or there's a natural disaster there. keep in mind our army is miniscule compared to yours, so what seem like minor deployments to you are in fact huge for us.

i joined for the second family, so i'd be able to stop some of the bullshit in the world rather than just whine about it and wave banners like that does a fucking thing (the sad truth about giving peace a chance in today's world), and so i could do the only kind of job which i find interesting. i like australia but it's not exactly 'my country'; canada is. i'm more protective of the australian army than the country itself.

that said, our army still has fairly high standards and is generally more relaxed, plus we still do all the fun stuff the us seems to consider outdated (hence why we don't get rolled so well by guerilla tactics). if you were interested in the same line of work, i would seriously recommend trying to get a transfer or something, because i enjoy the fuck out of it and it's relatively idiot-free still.

[Kalub]

Like I said, leave this nonsense be.

[Bodzilla]

I'm with KM on this one.

it's a needless thing that will only stir up controversy in a hotbed.
the government has to give off the appearance of being impartial.

[Spartan094]

book isn't dumb fyi.

It teaches lessons.

Its its followers that are usually dumb.
Then the followers preach all this shit and think they are the "messenger". Over religious people I can't stand.

Yeah it really does hurt the users using the gun that has the letters >_>. I might as well paint the letters MW2 on the scope to make me "uber".

[rossmum]

also additionally


book isn't dumb fyi.

It teaches lessons.

Its its followers that are usually dumb.
could not agree more

and yes, i did just use a redundant word there. look at me, look how little i care.

[English Mobster]

George fucking Washington, when asked about it, said the country was not based on nor has any ties with Christianity.

All those people who say that this country is based on Christianity (looking at you, Bush) are imbeciles.

The reason for the controversy is that if the Muslims find out about it, then they can claim we're waging a "Holy War" (which, technically, we are. When the subject first came up, Bush called it a "Crusade", and this was also reflected in its original codename, the "Last Crusade").
Anyway, if they claim Christianity to be attacking Islam, they turn the entire damn Middle East against us. If previously-peaceful Muslim civilians find out about the "Jesus Rifles", they will turn against the soldiers who are "fighting against their religion".

[rossmum]

like they need the last few characters of a trijicon-made sight unit to claim that. they could make up the most ridiculous bullshit in the world - and they do - and manage to recruit loads of impressionable young students.

[Aerowyn]

Well, problem solved.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34982151/ns/us_news-military/


A Michigan company that manufactures combat rifle sights for the U.S. military that carry Bible verse citations said Thursday it would send kits to remove the inscriptions, NBC reported.

Trijicon Inc. also said it would take off Biblical references from all U.S military products that are still in the company's factory and ensure future items do not have any inscriptions on them.

/thread

[Heathen]

One of the founding fathers said that religion was bad and perverse and that Christianity was the worst of them all.

[SnaFuBAR]

One of the founding fathers said that religion was bad and perverse and that Christianity was the worst of them all.

find me that quote and i'll +36 you

[=sw=warlord]

find me that quote and i'll +36 you

I think this maybe what hes reffering to.
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)or this

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)or this.

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)
Derp (http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm)

[Heathen]

“Christianity is the most perverse system that ever shone on man” - Thomas Jefferson

Thats all I could find of it. There was more.

Try googling it I guess.

E:

Ed. Note: See also James L. Cannon, "Not founded on Christianity": "The 1797 American treaty ending the war with Tripoli, passed by the Senate and signed by President John Adams, specifically states, "the government of the United States is not in any sense . . . founded on the Christian religion." No dissent was noted by any of our forefathers. Jefferson stated, "Christianity is the most perverse system that ever shone on man." Franklin opined, "Lighthouses are more useful than churches." Madison stated, "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

[Huero]

book isn't dumb fyi.

It teaches lessons.

Its its followers that are usually dumb.

even though most of those lessons are outdated ones that hold no relevance in modern society and even contradict a lot of common virtues

e: as an aside, it is interesting to note that a lot of the famous people you guys are chatting about were deists
which is cool

[Kalub]

Religion is funny.

[sleepy1212]

I bet i could find a religious symbol in some toilet paper.

uh-oh.. better stop wiping your ass.

idiots.


btw, those pesky middle-easterners don't hate us because of all the bullshit you've heard in the last 10 years. throw it all out and get ready for the bomb........


......wait for it.....


they hate everybody, especially allies of israel. and they've hated them for like,4000 years.

[SnaFuBAR]

Please get educated on the history of the middle east, then you might understand why they have such disdain towards everyone else. The language of your post makes it obvious that you're completely ignorant.

Thanks.

[sdavis117]

for like,4000 years.
Islam is only 1,400 years old.

[SnaFuBAR]

I bet i could find a religious symbol in some toilet paper.
yeah if it was intentionally put there like on the sights

idiots.
irony

those pesky middle-easterners
israelis are middle eastern hth

have a nice day.

[sleepy1212]

did it ever occur to some of you (since some of you already understand) that maybe the argument is ridiculous from the outset.

so ridiculous, in fact, that i reflected that in the audacity of my initial post.

don't be so quick to jump up on your professor stump and tell me how ingorant I am and tell me obvious things like Israel is in the middle east or Islam isn't 4000 years old. The hebrews were conquering the area long before Muhammed came along and the entire region was in religious conflict long before that.

i've had enough history to earn a minor in it, including history of the Middle East and US foreign policy in S. America. I know all about the so-called "U.S. Imperialism" and it's use as a rationale for why other nations hate America; and they do. But it's not the biggest, nor the first reason the Islamists hate us, which a lot of you would like to believe. It's our support of Israel. It's our part in creating that nation. The only people they hate more than everyone is the Hebrews. We've just given them more excuses to keep it up but until we abandon israel, they will continue to hate us.

Now, about these stupid guns. It does not matter. It's completely ridiculous. If the serial numbers are so bad then we better make sure the soldiers don't pray if they believe in a god other than allah. They better not have bibles in their tents or crosses around their necks, or even a dollar in their wallet because it says "In God We Trust".

You want to complain about tax dollars. We pay for all these soldiers. Should we stop paying for the ones that happen to be Christians? Maybe we should discharge all the Chaplans. We certainly can't let a rifle with a religious serial number on it slip past. What if someone reads a bible and puts two and two together.

Let's here you all cry about separation of church and state while we're all at it. We can misinterpret that all day because it doesn't matter what it really means as long as you can use it to support a God-Hating, anti-conservative, anti-constitutional, un-American (oh yes I did because most really are conservative and most of them believe in Jesus), progressive agenda.

Let's get real. If we can turn everyone against God then we can finally get rid of that oh-so-annoying "God-given rights" part of the constitution and replace it with something else. Like man-given rights...or...State-given rights. That sounds nice now doesn't it.

And when Uncle Sam tells you when to wipe your ass you can be damn sure the TP won't be made by a Christian.

[sdavis117]

Let's get real. If we can turn everyone against God then we can finally get rid of that oh-so-annoying "God-given rights" part of the constitution and replace it with something else. Like man-given rights...or...State-given rights. That sounds nice now doesn't it.

Please, tell me where in the CONSTITUTION is says "God-given rights".

[Kornman00]

Expect "God" is a man made concept and thus already implies "man-given rights" :downs:

isn't it past your bed time :raise:?

[paladin]

istnt past yours

[sleepy1212]

Please, tell me where in the CONSTITUTION is says "God-given rights".

Excuse me, correction:


...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...
point still holds because the truth is that the constitution itself is not intended to give rights to people, the declaration already laid that out. the point of the constitution was to lay out what the government could not do. check the wording and it becomes apparent.


Expect "God" is a man made concept and thus already implies "man-given rights" :downs:

isn't it past your bed time :raise:?

i am sleepy ;)

only the athiest would agree with that; but with a little coercion nearly everyone could see that yes, religion is a man made concept but that God is not. Even if deities were/are just a manmade fantasy it's still the best source of rights.

many american athiests and american progressives have such a disdain for their country and their countrymen (whom are mostly christian) that they see the "Creator" as exclusively the Christian God which they would like to remove. The Declaration makes no such distinction and this was intentional. it doesn't allow for one god to give more rights than another so that there would be religious freedom.

But the most important point here is that, abstraction or not, Rights endowed by the Creator are infallible in that they cannot be rightly taken away by men. All this really asks is for everyone, including Athiests, to subscribe to the idea that our rights, Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness, come from something bigger than the people, the government, the nation, and the world. The founders viewed these rights as innate. We, as humans, inherently possess them because they were bestowed upon us along with our nature "in the beginning".

This was the first time in human history that the relationship between the governed and the government was defined in this way. Before this 'rights' were given by the king, the emporer, the sultan, etc... and because of this, they were also taken away by the king. God will never do this and no man can challenge it. whether you believe or not the point is, your rights cannot be taken away. that was the intention from the outset.

[Kalub]

EVERYONE SHUT THE FUCK UP THE PROBLEM WAS SOLVED.



/thread

[Bodzilla]

This was the first time in human history that the relationship between the governed and the government was defined in this way. Before this 'rights' were given by the king, the emporer, the sultan, etc... and because of this, they were also taken away by the king. God will never do this and no man can challenge it. whether you believe or not the point is, your rights cannot be taken away. that was the intention from the outset.
:patriot act:

Get out.
also you dont understand anything about the nature of atheism.


oh and for the record me any my atheist brothers have been plotting the downfall of the christian regime for hundreds of years now!
soon we will have the ability to Suppress the christian people!
this has been our goal from the outset because we just cant stand christians and liberty and justice and all that other GOD GIVEN rights and beliefs!
THE CHRISTIANS MUST FALLLLLLLL


AAAaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaa


But, it's not a guarantee.
as it stands some private companys that are being contracted to produce scopes for the military to use in a war on the otherside of the world with very religious people are placing bible passages in the serial numbers!
if this is allowed to happen, then peace and liberty will reign and the very corner stone of our existence (destroying christian lives HAHA!) will BE NO MORE.
Their jesus riffles with the added bonus of G.O.D. (Give. oral. daily) are so OP, they're almost demoman.
we wont be able to stand in the face of G.O.D.

we have to end this now!
PROGRESS!

MORE LIKE
HISSSSsssSSsSSSSSss

because afterall, what has SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY EVER DONE FOR THE WORLD?.
IT"S ALL A RUSE TO DESTROY THE AAAAAAAAaaaaAAaaaa

[sdavis117]

point still holds because the truth is that the constitution itself is not intended to give rights to people, the declaration already laid that out. the point of the constitution was to lay out what the government could not do. check the wording and it becomes apparent.


No, the Constitution DOES give the rights to the people. That was not the purpose of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration of Independence was a letter written by one man that was intended to be received by another.

If you will look in the Constitution, you will find that it never even references a deity of any sort. The closest you could come would be when they gave the date, which was more for formal purposes then to actually refer to a deity.

A better document to discover the intended role of Christianity in our government would be the Treaty of Tripoli:

The Treaty of Tripoli usually refers to the first treaty concluded between the United States of America and Tripoli, otherwise known in English as the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. The treaty was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797, finally receiving ratification from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.
Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, 23 of the 32 sitting Senators were present for the June 7 vote which unanimously approved the ratification recommendation.
The Senate's ratification was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public dissent.

Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary.
ARTICLE 1.
There is a firm and perpetual Peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guaranteed by the most potent Dey & regency of Algiers.

ARTICLE 2.
If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war shall be loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party they shall pass free, and no attempt shall be made to take or detain them.

ARTICLE 3.
If any citizens, subjects or effects belonging to either party shall be found on board a prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

ARTICLE 4.
Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be known. And, considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date of this treaty shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers belonging to such vessels shall be sufficient for their protection.

ARTICLE 5
A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel condemned by the other party or by any other nation, the certificate of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a proper passport.

ARTICLE 6
Vessels of either party putting into the ports of the other and having need of provissions or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put in from a disaster at sea and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and reembark her cargo without paying any duties. But in no case shall she be compelled to land her cargo.

ARTICLE 7.
Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the disposition of the owners, and the crew protected and succoured till they can be sent to their country.

ARTICLE 8.
If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy within gun-shot of the forts of the other she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized or attacked when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to sea no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port within twenty four hours after her departure.

ARTICLE 9.
The commerce between the United States and Tripoli,-the protection to be given to merchants, masters of vessels and seamen,- the reciprocal right of establishing consuls in each country, and the privileges, immunities and jurisdictions to be enjoyed by such consuls, are declared to be on the same footing with those of the most favoured nations respectively.

ARTICLE 10.
The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli as a full and satisfactory consideration on his part and on the part of his subjects for this treaty of perpetual peace and friendship are acknowledged to have been recieved by him previous to his signing the same, according to a reciept which is hereto annexed, except such part as is promised on the part of the United States to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoly, of which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no presence of any periodical tribute or farther payment is ever to be made by either party.

ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

ARTICLE 12.
In case of any dispute arising from a notation of any of the articles of this treaty no appeal shall be made to arms, nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the (consul residing at the place where the dispute shall happen shall not be able to settle the same, an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers, the parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he by virtue of his signature to this treaty engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case according to the true interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the same.

[Kalub]

Cool, this thread is still lived longer than it should have

[sleepy1212]

whoops!




Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


means the rifles are legit. and so are commandments in courthouses, prayer in school, nativity scenes on public lawns, and all the other things that presumably infringe on people's "civil rights" according to the "separation of church and state" crowd.


now don't get me wrong here. i certainly don't think the country should be ruled from the pulpit. being as skeptical as i am i'm not going to subscribe to any evangelical arguement regarding these guns, or any other religious symbol for that matter. i'm extremely uncomfortable with the idea of any group (christians or athiests or whatever) going on tirades about something that is none of thier business, such as what a manufacturer chooses to put on his product.



It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.



No, the Constitution DOES give the rights to the people. That was not the purpose of the Declaration of Independence.


I was right the first time:


http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/billofrights


Look at the wording, particularly shall not be infringed, shall not be violated, shall make no law, shall not, no, no, and no; over and over again it states what the government cannot do, except in the wording of Article 6.


I can see where someone would think that the purpose of the Constitution was to hand out rights. but it's not. if it was it would be fallible and certainly mutable.



Cool, this thread is still lived longer than it should have

I'm having fun, aren't you? :D

[Kalub]

I guess, I could give a fat babies dick about the argument, but I guess.

[Bodzilla]

the separation of church and state implies that anything that has anything at all to do with the government can in no way be religious.

Bible verse's on government property is a breach of this.

If you put the shit on your own gun thats your choice, but this is government property and as such can have no religious connotations.

It's a no brainier.

[sleepy1212]

the separation of church and state implies that anything that has anything at all to do with the government can in no way be religious.

Bible verse's on government property is a breach of this.

If you put the shit on your own gun thats your choice, but this is government property and as such can have no religious connotations.

It's a no brainier.

The separation of church and state is an idea, not law. It isn't found in the constitution.

However,



Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

The Constitution only forbids congress from making laws. In particular, having a state-sponsered religion like the one the colonists fled from in England. The wording of the amendment clearly states it's purpose: to secure religious freedom for all Americans. Not to keep symbols off government property.

The only possible arguement here is that the guns somehow violate religious freedom. Do the numbers on those guns keep you from having religious freedom?

again:


It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Little battles like these guns are just part of an overall political war; a PC crusade to homogenize the masses into one gullible, lazy, easily controlled group. As individuals you probably don't feel that way but take a look at the noisiest, the most seen, the loudest most recognized among you. Invariably you find yourself looking at a politician.

[Kalub]

So I started this new political party in 2000, it's called: I don't care, the system's a mangled visage of it's former glory, and is probably the most fucked up thing this world has ever seen. Democrazy.


Anyone care to try communism?

[rossmum]

only if you make me premier

[Kalub]

Sure, only if I can have the bitches

[sdavis117]

only if you make me premier

I call the being guy who kills you, takes power, and commits several genocides while abusing and ignoring the ideals I say I represent.

[rossmum]

I call the being guy who kills you, takes power, and commits several genocides while abusing and ignoring the ideals I say I represent.
see this is why we can't have nice things (like communism)

[sleepy1212]

I call being the astronaut. I want a good seat when the world blows up.

[Kalub]

Thread has redeemed itself

[Cojafoji]

I call being the astronaut. I want a good seat when the world blows up.
Suffocating in space whilst marinating in your own gravy is a FUN way to die!

[sleepy1212]

Suffocating in space whilst marinating in your own gravy is a FUN way to die!

BOOM-DEE-ADA!

[SiriusTexra]

http://www.paltelegraph.com/hot-topic/3214-israelq-we-harvested-organs-of-dead-palestiniansq

stoking the flames

[Bodzilla]

it's the Merchant of venice, the alternative ending.

in this one the jew gets his pound of flesh.

[sleepy1212]

http://www.paltelegraph.com/hot-topic/3214-israelq-we-harvested-organs-of-dead-palestiniansq

stoking the flames

What a joke. Sweden, a Berkeley professor, and the AP...that's like the 3 blind mice writing a fair piece about the cat.