Healthcare, Again (House passes healthcare bill)

[Dwood]

Currently, the Obama care is supposedly being voted on in the house.

Post your sources for ANY updates going on right now because this legislation is going to redefine America whether or not the people like if it passes.

Here's my most up-to-date source

http://www.lonelyconservative.com/2010/03/21/do-they-have-the-votes/

Post 'em up until that vote comes!!!

e: 10 minutes until.

[Warsaw]

I'm all for health care, I'm not for the way they are doing it. But hey, it's out of my hands entirely, so there isn't much I can do except vote in such a way that they patch it up after the fact to my liking.

Live feed on Yahoo!, for those watching.

[thehoodedsmack]

It passed.

[Atty]

...now what?

[Hotrod]

So what exactly is it being changed to?

[Ifafudafi]

Well now we're a socialist country run by power-hungry tyrants who will use this precedent to revoke all our rights and turn America's people into slaves! :allears:

[Dwood]

They are still voting idk what you're talking about...? The one guy is asking for it to be recommit.

Even if it does, it goes to Senate.

[thehoodedsmack]

You guys should all be watching this: Live Feed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8578831.stm)

As of now, 10:55 - Arguing about abortion details.

[Dwood]

Federal funding of Abortion? To clarify: Obama signed an executive order claiming to stop public funding of abortion. This is a farce because legislation > executive order.

Stupak is speaking now. Ugh I'm shuddering inside.

Listening to those people talk: they're insane.

[thehoodedsmack]

Awesome. Another vote on whether or not to scrap the vote. They are stonewalling the hell out of this. We'll be back after these messages.

[Dwood]

About 59 who haven't voted. Oh come on!!!!

those democrats who voted Yes on this bill can kiss their seats good bye this election season.

[thehoodedsmack]

Well, there's still about ten minutes left, but the Nays have the vote.

[Warsaw]

And this is why we watch British politics on TV, and not American ones. It's far more entertaining.

[Dwood]

This whole "Let's vote on it, then find out what's on it" thing doesn't fly with me. :rage:

[Warsaw]

Well, you see, that's what the big O. himself wants...vote on it before you know what's on it so you don't have time to change your mind.

[sdavis117]

I already know what's in it, and I like it.

Even though it would be better if it still had the Public Option.

[Good_Apollo]

Lotta fail up in here, Amurica. :nsmug:

[Dwood]

Here's the up and down vote on the bill now guys! http://www.lbpost.com/ryan/8939

e: @ sdavis: So you want the gvt to be the only ones to allow for scholarships and/or student loans? (fact may not be 100% but it's similar to that)

edit 182 to 173, it's still reeeeaaaaally close.

184-192

I feel like a sports announcer.

VOTE NAY!!!! VOTE NAY!!!!!

[Jean-Luc]

This whole "Let's vote on it, then find out what's on it" thing doesn't fly with me. :rage:
It's the Patriot Act all over again :phonegonk:

[Dwood]

And yeah except this has even more implications on your freedoms than just the patriot act. This one will actually be put into effect.

So there's an 11 man difference holding steady.

Edit: And it's passed in the house. The difference is too big.

I wonder what the republican strategy is should the bill pass?

E: I saw some 4 yr old in there.

They barely made it with 218 votes

E: This is going to be a slaughter come November.

[sdavis117]

Here's the up and down vote on the bill now guys! http://www.lbpost.com/ryan/8939

e: @ sdavis: So you want the gvt to be the only ones to allow for scholarships and/or student loans? (fact may not be 100% but it's similar to that)

edit 182 to 173, it's still reeeeaaaaally close.

184-192

I feel like a sports announcer.

VOTE NAY!!!! VOTE NAY!!!!!

Competition still exists. In fact the Public Option was supposed to be a way to control prices by taking advantage of competition instead of just setting price limits through legislation.

VOTE YEA!!!! VOTE YEA!!!!

Just 3 more YEA votes needed.

Edit: It just hit 216. America, fuck yeah.

[Dwood]

Edit: It just hit 216. America, fuck yeah.

It still has to get through the senate. And there's another house vote right after this.

[sdavis117]

I believe the House vote right after this has to do with the honoring of Veterans, an important, but unrelated, measure.

[Dwood]

I believe the House vote right after this has to do with the honoring of Veterans, an important, but unrelated, measure.

You happen to be (at least) partially correct, my Liberal friend.

[sdavis117]

You happen to be (at least) partially correct, my Liberal friend.
RIP Modacity.

[Dwood]

RIP Modacity.

I hate you you liberal scumbag.

Edit: Some guy just resigned.

[Anton]

I've watched C-SPAN all day long. I've listened to every member of the house that has spoke today speak. I support this bill. I support the public option. I don't like how it was done up until this point, but that's United States law making for you. The scare tactics used by Republicans, the deals done by the Democratic Senate, and the American Media are all horrendous. Has anyone actually seen the bill itself? I have read all that I could from the bill that was posted last December, the reconciliation bill that was posted in the past few weeks, and I have read summaries of all of the bills.


And now a Georgia Representative just resigned.. I don't think it was totally related to this vote though. On another note, a member of this forum said that this health care bill is etched into stone permanently if passed (This was stated in our last health care thread). This isn't true, John McCain, a republican, said this himself. So if this bill turns out to be a flop, it can be reversed; just like many, many other laws in the United States.

[PlasbianX]

Health care plan written by a committee whose chairman doesn't understand it... passed by Congress that hasn't read it but is exempt from it... to be signed by a president that also is exempt, hasn't read it. & who smokes.... with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes... to be overseen by a surgeon general who's obese... & financed by a country that's broke. What the hell could possibly go wrong?

[Warsaw]

USA defaults on its loans and China declares war?

[paladin]

Health care plan written by a committee whose chairman doesn't understand it... passed by Congress that hasn't read it but is exempt from it... to be signed by a president that also is exempt, hasn't read it. & who smokes.... with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes... to be overseen by a surgeon general who's obese... & financed by a country that's broke. What the hell could possibly go wrong?

HAHA, you took the words out of my mouth. Good Job. Im all for Reform in this sector, but when 75% of America think this way is the wrong way, Politicians need to get their heads out of their asses and remember who they work for.

[Cojafoji]

the bill is nothing more than a barrel filled with pork fat and decorated with human ears.


fail.

[Anton]

You're also relying on polls that represent 1000 registered voters on average. I'm sorry but a lot of the time there is a silent majority. Listen to Cspan radio, the people who call in are majorly preferring the reform. Most of the time Americans listen to the Glenn Becks and the liberal counterparts. Why is this bad? Because then you have extreme right and extreme left garbage spewing all over. If people were to do a little research they would understand the media is just as corrupt as the politicians they're covering. I live in Kentucky, one of the most politically corrupt states there are. If there is an election for waste management lead, be sure there will be a pay off to get the seat. The media here covers our local elections in a way that leans to the "favorite" candidate. This shows that the media is just as bad as the politician.

Also, on the china thing. We owe what, 800-900 Billion to china? Do a quick Google search and you'll find many sources on that. China actually went negative on their trade debt recently. The debt situation is not only in American. Although, we do have the worst public debt.

I'll shut up now, I'm rambling.

[Warsaw]

I was poking fun. He just asked what could go wrong after mentioning our nation's debt, and that made me think of the Superbowl commercial with the little kids pledging allegiance to the foreign nations we owe the debt to. :)

[Anton]

It's alright, everyone here has brought forth valid concerns whether intentional or not. Which is a good thing; it spurs genuine discussion.

[CN3089]

Congrats America on narrowly defeating fascists and almost catching up to 1960s Canadian health care, hopefully you'll eventually become a first world nation :-3

[Ganon]

yeayuh

[Bodzilla]

Congrats America on narrowly defeating fascists and almost catching up to 1960s Canadian health care, hopefully you'll eventually become a first world nation :-3

where's your gif of american media buzzwords.

This thread needs it to be quite honest.

[ExAm]

USA defaults on its loans and China declares war?
The interesting thing is that by now, China literally can't afford to do anything to us. They're not going to get their money back by declaring war. Basically, we're blowing them a raspberry, "HA HA, SUCKERS," etc.

Anyways, there's a couple things I don't like about this bill, but a step in the right direction, I guess. The reform to insurance company policy is the really great stuff. The mandatory purchase clause is a real bummer, though. However, they also included the ability for people under 26 to stay on their parents' plans, so I guess I'm lucky. Can't say much for the people who'll be forced to pay up, though.

[paladin]

Im pretty sure Japan owns more of our debt now than China

[ExAm]

Bummer for them. Don't lend to delinquent countries.

[paladin]

Foreign owners of US Treasury Securities (December 2009)
Nation (billions of dollars) [percentage]
People's Republic of China (894.8) [24.3]
Japan (765.7) [20.8]
Oil exporters (207.4) [5.6]
United Kingdom (178.0) [4.8]
Brazil (169.3) [4.6]
Hong Kong (148.7) [4.0]
Russia (141.8) [3.8]
Caribbean Banking Centers (128.2) [3.5]
Republic of China (116.5) [3.2]
Switzerland (89.7) [2.4]
All Others (848.9) [23.0]
Grand Total (3689.0) [100]

.

For those that enjoy graphics

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Estimated_ownership_of_US_Treasury_securities_by_c ategory_0608.jpg

Screw what other countries own, you should be frightened at the amount the Fed owns.

[ExAm]

I still can't believe that we let a private bank deal with all our money.

Also, I'm not frightened about it. I'm concerned, but not frightened. Politics is never something to be frightened over unless they're debating killing you outright. I'm absolutely sick of all the fearmongering going on in politics right now, and I refuse to be a part of it.

[paladin]

concerned would be that our government talks about doing things. Frightened would be that they actually are doing what they were talking about that had concern

Also, a made up, government run bank that just buys our debt and prints more money is frightening. Its frightening because people seem to think that thats okay to do.

'We can't afford this. Don't worry, we have our own printing press!'

[Bodzilla]

you dont understand economics.

While the fed reserve is dodge, they dont just simply print money.
ever heard of hyper-inflation?

[Dwood]

Congrats America on narrowly defeating fascists and almost catching up to 1960s Canadian health care, hopefully you'll eventually become a first world nation :-3

I'd rather not be at the 1960s Canadian healthcare. Heck, It's 2010 and their leaders won't even use their own system. (http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/canadian_premier_unapologetic_about_coming_to_amer ica_for_health_care/) but then again, all of kyon's arguments suck and are of no value whatsoever so who am I kidding?

This bill is a step in the wrong direction, is not reform, and is more like a Gov. Takeover of 10% of our economy.

E:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz032110dAPR20100320021353.jpg

[CN3089]

how can it be a government takeover, it doesn't even have a public option




(not that a government takeover of health care would be a bad thing)




How does it feel to be on the wrong side of history? Genuinely curious, here

Seriously though government takeover? Have you even read anything about this bill or what? It pretty much just shovels money into insurance company's gaping maws with the caveat that they can't be outright blatantly evil in refusing to cover people*



welp, at least it expands medicaid so I still think it's a net positive :allears:



*although this doesn't kick in until 2014 so hopefully you'll vote in a more liberal government to get it changed good luck guys I'm rooting for you!

a more thorough explanation of what the bill Actually Does, emphasis mine:


WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT

Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.

Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.

Uninsured adults with pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new programme that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.

A temporary reinsurance programme is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.

Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.

A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

A 10 per cent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011

Medicare provides 10 per cent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.

Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalised prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.

A new programme under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.

Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.

Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 IRS forms.

An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies based on market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organisations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.

An incentive programme is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programmes, begin tracking hospital re-admission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013

A national pilot programme is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.

The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemised tax returns is raised to 10 per cent from 7.5 per cent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 per cent for the elderly through 2016.

The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 per cent from 1.45 per cent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income at a rate of 3.8 per cent for that income group.

A 2.9 per cent excise tax is imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 per cent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidised insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.

Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015

Medicare creates a physician payment programme aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2018

An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/03/20103224250561653.html


e:


This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity
generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S.
Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to
see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic
and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be
like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National
Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of
Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been
determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept
accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the
U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads
build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation,
possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level
determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender
issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via
the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks
to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and
the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another
two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my
NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned
down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and
Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its
valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the
Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on
Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine
is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

:realsmug:

[sleepy1212]

i'm just gonna hold my tongue until the states sue the fuck out of them

[paladin]

you dont understand economics.

While the fed reserve is dodge, they dont just simply print money.
ever heard of hyper-inflation?

Wow. Why does hyper inflation occur? I guess printing paper notes that say $100 on it doesn't have anything to do with it.

And yes, they simply can just print money to solve their problems. They've done that for the past 25 years.

[Dwood]

I only see this ending in disaster.

[TeeKup]

I approve of Kyons post.

[Bodzilla]

Wow. Why does hyper inflation occur? I guess printing paper notes that say $100 on it doesn't have anything to do with it.

And yes, they simply can just print money to solve their problems. They've done that for the past 25 years.
because they dont just simply print money you idiot.

if they did you would be IN HYPER INFLATION RIGHT NOW.

[neuro]

this thread is beyond rediculous.

people against healthcare are rediculous.

[paladin]

because they dont just simply print money you idiot.

if they did you would be IN HYPER INFLATION RIGHT NOW.

They can, and do. Idiot

[Dwood]

this thread is beyond rediculous.

people against healthcare are rediculous.


Yes, because I'm against the population receiving health care.

[teh lag]

Hey guys.

Bod? Paladin? If you can't have a debate without calling each other idiots, both of you shut up and get out. That's where I'm drawing the line here.

Neuro, I know what you meant with your post, but this is clearly more than being for or against healthcare in itself. That's the kind of generalization that causes problems in threads like this. Dwood, I think you probably know what he meant too.

[Warsaw]

Dwood has been on a smartass binge this whole week, so I'm guessing it's just a phase...:downs:.

Also, why is everyone making this out to be a done deal? Still has to go through the Senate.

[Good_Apollo]

this thread is beyond ridiculous.

people against healthcare are rediculous.Wat.

Nobody is against health care, some people are against health care reform, or at least, this proposed reform. You are ridiculous. :nsmug:

[Disaster]

The federal government has no authority to regulate health insurance. They only have authority to regulate interstate commerce and health insurance is intrastate.

[=sw=warlord]

The federal government has no authority to regulate health insurance. They only have authority to regulate interstate commerce and health insurance is intrastate.
Yeah and we can see your states have been a perfectly oiled machine needing no improvements what so ever, the many people unable to get health insurance due to pre-existing health issues are no reason for the federal government to get involved are they?:downs:

[Disaster]

Opinions do not trump law. The constitution is supreme. Article 1 Section 8 Clause 3, read it.

If it's such a problem, let a government that has the authority to regulate health insurance do it. There is a reason for the state governments you know? :allears:

[=sw=warlord]

Opinions do not trump law. The constitution is supreme. Article 1 Section 8 Clause 3, read it.
Opinions may not trump law, but when those laws are detrimental to public health, then I think it would be a safe guess someone will step in at one point or another.
The constitution was also made in times very different to current, if you continualy live in the past and only follow rules set in past times you will never make any progress as a civilization.

[Good_Apollo]

Opinions do not trump law. The constitution is supreme. Article 1 Section 8 Clause 3, read it.The constitution is still objectionable. Pro-Reformers say it's within the Governments rights, and those that are against say otherwise. The Constitution is wonderfully vague and chock full of grey areas so falling back on it to support your argument is wildly flawed.

What's good for the people is what comes first, not an old piece of paper.

[Disaster]

The government does not have the authority to regulate intrastate commerce. I don't see how thats not understandable or vague. Healthcare is, for the moment, intrastate and cannot be regulated by the federal government.

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes".

In no way is that vague.

[Good_Apollo]

The government does not have the authority to regulate intrastate commerce. I don't see how thats not understandable or vague. Healthcare is, for the moment, intrastate and cannot be regulated by the federal government.

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes".

In no way is that vague.In terms of politics, that's as vague as it gets.

[Disaster]

They only have the authority to regulate interstate, international, and commerce with the Indian Tribes. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

[flibitijibibo]

Why do I get the feeling Disaster is the only one not talking out of his ass in this entire thread (excluding Kyon's post, that was hilarious)? At least it's not as bad as WATERRRRRRRRRRRRR I guess.

This is my first and last post here, and this is why:
RycwYRcm3Lc

[Dwood]

The federal government has no authority to regulate health insurance. They only have authority to regulate interstate commerce and health insurance is intrastate.

You would be incorrect. The only one that I think would be correct to say that this is not the federal government's is the last amendment of the constitution stating that any powers not expressly given to the Federal Government were reserved to the states.




Dwood has been on a smartass binge this whole week, so I'm guessing it's just a phase...:downs:.


I assure you, it is no binge. The meaning of the terms being "funny" and "sarcastic" finally clicked.


Also, why is everyone making this out to be a done deal? Still has to go through the Senate.


With Biden holding certain powers, the democrats are pretty close to filibuster-proof.


Opinions may not trump law, but when those laws are detrimental to public health, then I think it would be a safe guess someone will step in at one point or another.
The constitution was also made in times very different to current, if you continualy live in the past and only follow rules set in past times you will never make any progress as a civilization.

If the constitution were so outdated as you europeans say it is, America as a whole would amend it to be updated. As far as I am aware, everyone is satisfied with the constitution, and the dissatisfaction as far as I'm aware is to be had with those violating the constitution.

[=sw=warlord]

Why do I get the feeling Disaster is the only one not talking out of his ass in this entire thread
Are you insinuating you would preffer to live by age old rules, never progressing as a civilization, purely out of ceremony?
Im pretty sure, if progress is to be made, old rules need to be amended.



If the constitution were so outdated as you europeans say it is, America as a whole would amend it to be updated. As far as I am aware, everyone is satisfied with the constitution, and the dissatisfaction as far as I'm aware is to be had with those violating the constitution.
Progress is slow, especialy when it comes to politics, it took Germany for example, Two world wars to learn a few lessons that should have been learned in the first.
It could be a cultural thing, but i was always told to look out for my neighbor, but the majority of those in power over there, only look out to save their own wallets.
Im not saying things are any different over here, but over here people expect more to be done in terms of social services, It suprises me that nations will gather to send free aid to people in need in far places of the globe and yet won't even help their own people.
Japan, one of the most traditionaly oriented countries on the earth, has made leaps and bounds purely from embracing change and has accelerated to become a world leader in technology, if a country as small as Japan can make these kinds of jumps, why is it such a large nation as America is still living 20 years behind?

[Disaster]

Ignoring the very thing that defines our country will destroy us.

The Constitution was made in order to evolve with the times. That is why it did not get extremely specific on certain things. The Framers wanted a federal government that was as small as it can be while still keeping order. Big government only leads to the trampling of liberty as history has shown us time and time again. Would you care to risk it again? Do you feel confident enough in the United States government that you will give them the power to evade everything in the Constitution.

You do know that your right to vote is in the Constitution don't you? If they can ignore it, what is stopping them from stripping you of that? What happens then?

[=sw=warlord]

Ignoring the very thing that defines our country will destroy us.
And that, Is exactly what you will be doing if to stint progress out of fear of the unknown.
Britain used to be ruled by a monarchy, as did several other nations, if it were not for the people fighting against the corruption and omnipotent leadership, we would still have a gilotine in every town, dunking women in a water to find if they are witches and paying taxes to fund the monarchys drinking parties.

The Constitution was made in order to evolve with the times. That is why it did not get extremely specific on certain things. The Framers wanted a federal government that was as small as it can be while still keeping order. Big government only leads to the trampling of liberty as history has shown us time and time again. Would you care to risk it again? Do you feel confident enough in the United States government that you will give them the power to evade everything in the Constitution.
Are you seriously telling me, you think your forefathers wrote the constitution knowing what would come in the future, that they had wrote a article so ingenious that it would last over two centuries of change?

You do know that your right to vote is in the Constitution don't you? If they can ignore it, what is stopping them from stripping you of that? What happens then?
Are you really going to try and pull that old bag of tricks?
Comments in Bold.

[Dwood]

Progress is slow, especialy when it comes to politics, it took Germany for example, Two world wars to learn a few lessons that should have been learned in the first.
It could be a cultural thing, but i was always told to look out for my neighbor, but the majority of those in power over there, only look out to save their own wallets.
Im not saying things are any different over here, but over here people expect more to be done in terms of social services, It suprises me that nations will gather to send free aid to people in need in far places of the globe and yet won't even help their own people.
Japan, one of the most traditionaly oriented countries on the earth, has made leaps and bounds purely from embracing change and has accelerated to become a world leader in technology, if a country as small as Japan can make these kinds of jumps, why is it such a large nation as America is still living 20 years behind?

Because America is awesome. But seriously, why are we so horrible and still running? Literally because of Capitalism. I can't expound on that because I have to go.

What makes the Constitution so outdated? Please be specific.

[Disaster]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203917304574412793406386548.html#a rticleTabs%3Darticle

I'm just going to leave it at this.

Last week, I asked South Carolina Congressman James Clyburn, the third-ranking Democrat in the House of Representatives, where in the Constitution it authorizes the federal government to regulate the delivery of health care. He replied: "There's nothing in the Constitution that says that the federal government has anything to do with most of the stuff we do." Then he shot back: "How about [you] show me where in the Constitution it prohibits the federal government from doing this?"

Rep. Clyburn, like many of his colleagues, seems to have conveniently forgotten that the federal government has only specific enumerated powers. He also seems to have overlooked the Ninth and 10th Amendments, which limit Congress's powers only to those granted in the Constitution.

One of those powers—the power "to regulate" interstate commerce—is the favorite hook on which Congress hangs its hat in order to justify the regulation of anything it wants to control.

Unfortunately, a notoriously tendentious New Deal-era Supreme Court decision has given Congress a green light to use the Commerce Clause to regulate noncommercial, and even purely local, private behavior. In Wickard v. Filburn (1942), the Supreme Court held that a farmer who grew wheat just for the consumption of his own family violated federal agricultural guidelines enacted pursuant to the Commerce Clause. Though the wheat did not move across state lines—indeed, it never left his farm—the Court held that if other similarly situated farmers were permitted to do the same it, might have an aggregate effect on interstate commerce.

James Madison, who argued that to regulate meant to keep regular, would have shuddered at such circular reasoning. Madison's understanding was the commonly held one in 1789, since the principle reason for the Constitutional Convention was to establish a central government that would prevent ruinous state-imposed tariffs that favored in-state businesses. It would do so by assuring that commerce between the states was kept "regular."

The Supreme Court finally came to its senses when it invalidated a congressional ban on illegal guns within 1,000 feet of public schools. In United States v. Lopez (1995), the Court ruled that the Commerce Clause may only be used by Congress to regulate human activity that is truly commercial at its core and that has not traditionally been regulated by the states. The movement of illegal guns from one state to another, the Court ruled, was criminal and not commercial at its core, and school safety has historically been a state function.

Applying these principles to President Barack Obama's health-care proposal, it's clear that his plan is unconstitutional at its core. The practice of medicine consists of the delivery of intimate services to the human body. In almost all instances, the delivery of medical services occurs in one place and does not move across interstate lines. One goes to a physician not to engage in commercial activity, as the Framers of the Constitution understood, but to improve one's health. And the practice of medicine, much like public school safety, has been regulated by states for the past century.

The same Congress that wants to tell family farmers what to grow in their backyards has declined "to keep regular" the commercial sale of insurance policies. It has permitted all 50 states to erect the type of barriers that the Commerce Clause was written precisely to tear down. Insurers are barred from selling policies to people in another state.

That's right: Congress refuses to keep commerce regular when the commercial activity is the sale of insurance, but claims it can regulate the removal of a person's appendix because that constitutes interstate commerce.

What we have here is raw abuse of power by the federal government for political purposes. The president and his colleagues want to reward their supporters with "free" health care that the rest of us will end up paying for. Their only restraint on their exercise of Commerce Clause power is whatever they can get away with. They aren't upholding the Constitution—they are evading it.

[=sw=warlord]

Because America is awesome. But seriously, why are we so horrible and still running? Literally because of Capitalism. I can't expound on that because I have to go.

What makes the Constitution so outdated? Please be specific.
I appologise for going off topic on this but i think this should be explained.
Im going to use a metaphore for this.
Consider a pool of dots, each dot struggles with each other to absorb more ink, the pool is alive with lots of little dot's, and this is what makes the pool alive, but over time the large dots absorb the smaller ones and over time even those get absorbed by even larger still, eventually, you will run out dots and only have one big festering blob that is restricted and clumbsy.

This is a example of how capitalism works, everyone is out for themselves and doe's not care for a moment what effect that would have on everyone else.
Had we have healthcare you have, here i would personaly not be alive today, i would have died way back in 2003 when it was because of public healthcare, that my life threatening condition was diagnosed, by that time i was a few weeks short of death, if it wasn't for other people looking out for me, i would not be here, and since then, i have tried my best to look out for others, it is a mutually beneficial situation, i help others out and they help me out.
With that, progress has been made, i see many people on these forums complaining about authors protecting their tagset for their maps, the largest arguement for open sourcing works is that other people can learn from previous works, recreate it and improve upon the work and then pass on this new knowledge for others to carry on the cycle.

But with everyone only out to help them selves, this cycle would not be possible, can you imagine if everyone in the world only did things for them selves and never passed any information on to others?
We wouldnt have the technological capacities we do today.
Your consitution if i remember correct, was made during the times of the civil war, when everyone was out for their own safety, it worked back then but now we are in a completely different climate.

[Disaster]

Yeah. Don't ever comment again in this thread Warlord. You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. At least do a little research before posting?

[teh lag]

Your consitution if i remember correct, was made during the times of the civil war, when everyone was out for their own safety, it worked back then but now we are in a completely different climate.

You don't remember correct.

And guys.

Yes, you. YOU, the person reading this right now.

If you can't not get mad about this, leave the thread. Leave it now.

[=sw=warlord]

You don't remember correct.
Then I appologise, hopefully how ever my message was still true to the situation, I still think to make progress, adaptions must be made over time.

[Disaster]

Progress towards what? Bigger government that will have the power to trample rights?

[paladin]

this proposed reform.

.


The federal government has no authority to regulate health insurance. They only have authority to regulate interstate commerce and health insurance is intrastate.

This is way several states, including my own, are filing suit with the federal gooberment

[=sw=warlord]

Progress towards what? Bigger government that will have the power to trample rights?
Rights to what in this reform, which is all it is, the right to make a quick buck with skewered health care?
Isn't democracy the reason we are currently in Iraq, to give them the fair chance of choosing their own goverment?

[Anton]

Paladin, the lawsuits being filed are most likely to fall apart. These types of lawsuits came after Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other huge legislative feats. Even if these lawsuits are filed and gain momentum it will be a good five or six years before any major ruling is made. That means this bill will be working and underway while the bill is being reviewed in the supreme court.

[sleepy1212]

Paladin, the lawsuits being filed are most likely to fall apart. These types of lawsuits came after Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other huge legislative feats. Even if these lawsuits are filed and gain momentum it will be a good five or six years before any major ruling is made. That means this bill will be working and underway while the bill is being reviewed in the supreme court.

especially with a majority of the judges being sympathetic to progressive ideals. maybe it's just a gesture, so that, after the revolution, they can say, "hey, we tried this..."

[CN3089]

especially with a majority of the judges being sympathetic to progressive ideals. maybe it's just a gesture, so that, after the revolution, they can say, "hey, we tried this..."

the majority of judges on SCOTUS are conservative sorry to be the one to tell you this


Also, why is everyone making this out to be a done deal? Still has to go through the Senate.

Nope, it's already gone through there, the house passed the senate bill


Obama's signing it on Tuesday and then the Senate will take up the changes the House wants to make :allears:

[Warsaw]

Well, ain't that just dandy.

[paladin]

Im pretty sure the 9 states are just going after the clause that mandates you buy insurance not the entire bill itself

[ExAm]

Kyon's got the idea. This isn't anything like a government takeover of the healthcare system, even though it shouldn't even be a private fucking industry anyway.

[sleepy1212]

the majority of judges on SCOTUS are conservative sorry to be the one to tell you this

hmm, i bet you think bush was conservative too....and mccain.... :gonk:

sorry to be the one to tell YOU this but progressives are pretty much all over both sides of the aisle.

[jcap]

This still does nothing to fix the biggest problem with healthcare: it can will bleed your wallet dry.

How about they try to curb the actual cost of healthcare, much like the government regulates the cost of milk and other shit? We pay like $22,000 yearly for family healthcare, but we also have a $5000 family premium and all the other expenses like co-pays that accumulate. Hell, we've been paying that for the past 10 years at least (not sure what it was previously), and we haven't needed it once. Fuck, we never even knew the drugs that were covered under it because they didn't give us any documents until we actually asked for them. Last month, we found out the cost for us is GOING UP 50% in NJ. WHAT THE FUCK!?!

Now, the cost WILL go up even more (unless this price hike was anticipating the passage of the bill). But, my point is, even if the government does some things that look good on the surface, such as cutting the cost of premiums $2500 per family, the insurance companies will just tack on about $5000 to your yearly insurance cost... They aren't going to lose money - they'll just get it another way.

Also, they need to fix the problem of pre-existing conditions. Yeah, sure, insurance companies can no longer deny you coverage. New Jersey and several other states have had that for a while now. However, there is NOTHING that prevents the insurance companies from PENALIZING you because you have a condition. They might not be able to reject you, but they can make your costs so fucking high that you can't afford to pay them.

So, this bill is a load of bullshit. It fixes nothing. Maybe in 80 years someone in a political position will realize how the insurance companies are fucking the consumers up the ass and address these issues.
...Or not.

[Dwood]

Let the health insurers compete across the country and only have the regulations of the state they're based in apply to them. < /problem>

[neuro]

i'm actually wondering how and why the hell health care is so expensive in america.

here in the netherlands, it's done in such a manner that children under the age of 10 (or so, varies per insurer) are co-insured for free, assuming youve got a family-type-deal going on.

then there's also a scheme running that if you don't get sick (and therefore don't claim anything) you'll get a certain amount of money back, via taxes. i'm currently getting about 100 euros per month back from the taxes, because i'm never sick.


i'm just going to put a few costs in comparison here.
i dont claim, and receive 100 euros back from the taxes per month.
my girlfriends mother got cancer, and went on chemo. the chemo she got, was about 10.000 euros PER INJECTION.
she got 7.

i can understand why people go RAWR IT ARE MONEY.
yes, it are money, but if you get sick and youre not insured, you're FUCKED, simple as that.

give the whole thing time to mature, insures will start competing with prices among themselves, and simply offer better packages.
it might take some time, shti like this is always expensive at first. it'll settle down to a certain point where they cant afford to lower their costs much more, and ti'll all even out.

don't be surprised if in 3 years, healthcare insurance costs will be like one third or even one fifth (or even less) of what you'd be paying now.

[sleepy1212]

i'm actually wondering how and why the hell health care is so expensive in america.

give the whole thing time to mature, insures will start competing with prices among themselves, and simply offer better packages.
it might take some time, shti like this is always expensive at first. it'll settle down to a certain point where they cant afford to lower their costs much more, and ti'll all even out.

don't be surprised if in 3 years, healthcare insurance costs will be like one third or even one fifth (or even less) of what you'd be paying now.

because of government interference in the medical market, the FDA, and lawsuits.

For one, the major one...when any business knows the government is footing the bill they raise prices. Something they couldn't do if customers were paying for their services. Add that to the federal governments' limiting of where insurance companies can sell.

the FDA approves drugs/new treatments for lobbyists and drugs being manufactured in a representatives district instead of approving drugs/treatments on their merits.

Threat of filing suit is so high going to the doctor is treated like playing the lottery. Frivolous suits have raised the overhead to a point where many doctors simply cannot operate...particularly those small family practices.

health insurance should be sold the way auto insurance is. that would pretty much fix it all.

[jcap]

Let the health insurers compete across the country and only have the regulations of the state they're based in apply to them. < /problem>
It is amazing they haven't done this yet. Of everything they could have added to the bill, they didn't add this... JESUS CHRIST, IT WOULD FIX THE FUCKING PRICES OVERNIGHT IF THEY ALLOW COMPETITIVE PRICING.

The reason medical costs are so high is only because they can do it. A fucking boot is around $300 if you pay full price. THE THING IS A GODDAMN PIECE OF PLASTIC WITH SOME FOAM PADDING THAT PROBABLY DOESN'T COST MORE THAN $15 TO MAKE, AND THEY CHARGE $300 FOR IT!?! FFS, you can get a pair of leather boots for less. I think the biggest reason for the high prices is because of how they work the insurance companies. They exploit the insurance companies with absurd prices, since they believe insurance will just pay for it, which they assume everyone has. They charge more because they think we aren't paying for it directly. BUT, in our case, insurance paid for $200, and we had a $100 co-pay. We still got screwed out of more than the actual value of the item.

Another problem that needs addressing is the whole fucked up process. Let's say you injure your foot, and it really hurts bad, but you can still walk. You aren't going to go to the emergency room because of it (which some people do, and that's a problem in its own...need clinics!!!), so you schedule an appointment with your doctor to see them in a week. You see the doctor, they can't diagnose you, but they guess that it might be a fracture and he writes you a script to get an X-ray. He writes you a bill for $300. First, why do you even need a doctor to get an X-ray? Why can't you just go direct and then go to another doctor? So, you go an get your X-ray which was scheduled for the following week, but they aren't allowed to tell you anything about your X-ray until you schedule another appointment 1-2 weeks from now. You go see your doctor, and it isn't broken or fractured, so he puts you in a boot ($300) anyway and writes you another bill for $500. 6 weeks later you still have pain and it's not getting better, so he orders bloodwork and points you to someone else. That other doctor says it could be a genetic disease, despite all logic saying that it has never shown up in your family EVER and orders bloodwork. Despite your arguing of other possible problems, the doctor says his method is to try one thing, see if it fails, and then try another illogical solution, each visit costing $400 for an hour or two of time. You get bloodwork, another $300, and see you find out the doctor was wrong (surprise!!!), and so he goes on with something else that makes no sense. Each time he misdiagnoses it, you have now gone 2-3 weeks longer with your problem, and you have several thousand dollars in medical expenses. ...And you're still nowhere closer than 4 months ago when you started.

(true story of a friend)

You can't just find another doctor, either. You need to find a doctor that has deals with the insurance companies ("in-network"), or else insurance will refuse to cover the cost completely, or even sometimes refuse to cover the cost at all. Fuck, you'd expect that since they have a policy, they would actually follow it. NOT TRUE!

When I was born, my mother was told to go to an in-network hospital. They covered the cost. However, when my sister was born, they didn't send my mother to the same hospital. She questioned them, asking why it was different this time, and they said there was no reason except that the hospital was in-network and it was their first choice. So, she gets a letter confirming that the insurance company will cover it, it and she gives birth to my sister. We get a bill for the services, because insurance refused to cover it since the hospital was actually out of network. Even with the letter, it took several months to get it resolved...for their own problem.

That was long ago...when paper trails actually existed. They don't send out letters anymore to confirm anything. It's all done electronic notes of phone conversations. Your conversation and confirmation is only as good as the person's notes. Today, it would have been near-impossible to have that issue resolved, since there would have been no written proof. Even with the written proof, it took several months to resolve, so could you imagine what it would be like WITHOUT it!?

The entire system is fucked. This bill won't fix it. This bill is simply a band-aid approach. You can't fix a system that is broken by design. It is designed to make the insurance companies, doctors, and medical suppliers rich, while totally fucking over the customers.

[Kornman00]

Insurance, no matter what it is, is bullshit. ~120 euros for Car Insur. (2 cars) in Germany VS ~500$ USD from a state side company.

That and the cases where they pick-and-choose who and when the insurance money is given even though someone has paid the bullshit jacked up prices for years already without any major issues. It's just a privitization (sp) of taxing people without the money going back to Congress. You're required to have car insurance to drive, they might as well make a fucking tax for driving and just create a nation wide insurance plan for cars. At least then we can drop the fucking mask on what is really going on with this charading bullshit and get some real shit done.

It's either have sneaky corporate scum push you into a corner or have gov't regulations push you into a corner. At least with the latter there is more public push for changes and you get to see politicans fuck up their career over stupid shit plus get into childish fights because of differing and double standard ideas.

It's all the same in the end. Big Brother, no matter his branch of gov't, will get his dick in your ass. But if it makes you feel better when he brings flowers then just keep on saying Nay just like the hurd of sheep you are.

[Cojafoji]

Say what you want, but prices are high because, in the US, health insurance is a BUSINESS. They're in it to make money, not save people's lives.

Nothing involved is about the "greater good" for people, it's all about the bottom line, and top dollar.

Humans die; some quickly, some slowly. They bet on the slow horses to milk 'em dry.

/story

[DarkHalo003]

This still does nothing to fix the biggest problem with healthcare: it can will bleed your wallet dry.

How about they try to curb the actual cost of healthcare, much like the government regulates the cost of milk and other shit? We pay like $22,000 yearly for family healthcare, but we also have a $5000 family premium and all the other expenses like co-pays that accumulate. Hell, we've been paying that for the past 10 years at least (not sure what it was previously), and we haven't needed it once. Fuck, we never even knew the drugs that were covered under it because they didn't give us any documents until we actually asked for them. Last month, we found out the cost for us is GOING UP 50% in NJ. WHAT THE FUCK!?!

Now, the cost WILL go up even more (unless this price hike was anticipating the passage of the bill). But, my point is, even if the government does some things that look good on the surface, such as cutting the cost of premiums $2500 per family, the insurance companies will just tack on about $5000 to your yearly insurance cost... They aren't going to lose money - they'll just get it another way.

Also, they need to fix the problem of pre-existing conditions. Yeah, sure, insurance companies can no longer deny you coverage. New Jersey and several other states have had that for a while now. However, there is NOTHING that prevents the insurance companies from PENALIZING you because you have a condition. They might not be able to reject you, but they can make your costs so fucking high that you can't afford to pay them.

So, this bill is a load of bullshit. It fixes nothing. Maybe in 80 years someone in a political position will realize how the insurance companies are fucking the consumers up the ass and address these issues.

...Or not.

My dad has been in the Health industry for his entire Physicaltheropist professional career. He has been an employee, a Clinic Director, and soon an employee a Sole Proprietorship. He has told me basically how screwy this stuff really is and how it totally messes with the organization most Health companies set for insurance, like health care. This bill as it currently is will make it at least 10x worse.

IMO, I think the Bill is okay up until the point where it denies Public Option. The Health Care industry NEEDS regulation as it currently is, but not domination by the Government, the WORST company to ever try to run business. Taxes will be hiked up for a wedgy because we WILL be paying for it (that's how the Gov't gets money if you didn't know) and generally speaking there will almost be no difference in what is deducted and what the final cost for a surgery is. Even with the Health care, it's $500 off of a $5,000 dollar surgery, when people expect it to be free. Hell, my Grandmother was an employee in a pharmacy for God knows how long and frankly when one person has to pay $0.50 for a subscription they raise hell that it isn't free. Sorry if this seems like a rant, but I'm putting my entire opinion and perspective into this argument. As it is, Health care and this Bill need reform themselves before anything is put into action. This is why we have bloody professionals to calculate, read, proof-read, and agree with a final bill BEFORE it is voted by Congress. This "let's pass it and see if the nation likes it" and "OUR FOREFATHERS WANTED US TO DO IT!" (<- basic summary of what House Speaker of Nancy Polossy said) and "Even though our citizens are now taking back what they said about wanting United Healthcare, let's shove it in their faces because that's what we said we were going to do in the first place" ideas of politicians is ridiculous. Dwood, I agree, they are going to get kicked next election and they will learn who the boss really is.

It's the not the fact that we NEED a United Healthcare kind of deal, it's the fact that we need reform and regulation in a shifty and confusing business that minorities know little about.

Does anyone know if Georgia was one of the states refusing the bill?

[paladin]

I think it is.

e: nerp (http://www.komonews.com/news/88918027.html)
Attorneys general from South Carolina, Nebraska, Texas, Michigan, Utah, Pennsylvania, Alabama, South Dakota, Louisiana, Idaho, Washington and Colorado are joining in.


Also, Healthcare is expensive for a few reasons. One, methods, drugs, and other medical products such as device are incredibly expensive to develop. One drug may cost a billion dollars to research, and may never be put into production. Every one out of three or four drugs researched actually hit the market. Company have to get their money back some how. Same goes for medical device. The other thing that makes it expensive is the GOD DAMN LIABILITY. Healthcare is cheaper in every other country because they don't have people suing everyone over a rash or poorly placed IV. Now, Health Insurance is expensive because all of the above. You lower the cost of the above, you lower the cost of Health Insurance. Theres a difference between Healthcare and Health Insurance. People may be denied Health Insurance, but anyone can walk into a hospital and be treated, even if they can't pay.

[Dwood]

We don't need public healthcare. We've failed to address the issues for so many years. Are there only the benefits quoted by Kyon in a bill that's 2,200 pages? Will I be able to keep my parent's healthcare provider until i'm 26 if I move out of state?

So many questions, so few answers.

[Warsaw]

If it needs a patch on release, then it wasn't done in the first place.

[paladin]

If it needs a patch on release, then it wasn't done in the first place.

HA, so true

[SiriusTexra]

KJKbDz4EZio&feature=related
.

[Gwunty]

Dane is posting in a politics releated thread
ohh this will be good:allears:

btw dane im dead becuase of the mind control h1n1 gave me
owai

[SiriusTexra]

IRS running the medical records, and can decide what treatments you can get. They will tax you for any treatments they think you don't need.

The insurance companies with the government set the care, and you will get crap. This will also protect them from all the liability lawsuits from all the people who don't get the right care under their insurance.

People comparing this to the Australian system or the Canadian system are just plain wrong. This is a more like the EU system on PCP in one nostril and crack in the other. Besides, the Australian government is about to take away our current healthcare system for one IDENTICAL to the current US model that just passed.

I expect the same for Canada.

[Anton]

This thread officially sucks, again.


...IRS, GOVERNMENT, HEALTH CARE, OH MY! :tinfoil:

What's worse than Glenn Beck? Conspiracy theories. The most ironic thing so far about this debate is that Glenn Beck, himself, debunked whack conspiracy theories.

Honestly, there is so much distrust between people. Not only in government, but between average people. No wonder there are so many crazy things flying around about, well, everything.

[sleepy1212]

uhh hey guy, IRS is running this.

but what the hell, they'll do a good job...right? i mean, the federal goverment has a great track record. just look at Amtrak, USPS, Social Security, Medicaid, Cash for Clunkers, Public Education, NASA, Federal Reserve, Vietnam, DEA and "War on Drugs", Waco, 911, FDA, FCC, FEMA and Katrina relief, Afghanistan, and the Internal Revenue Serv....oh wait.

It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to say they fucking suck at everything.


Honestly, there is so much distrust between people. Not only in government, but between average people. No wonder there are so many crazy things flying around about, well, everything.

That's what progressives do. They don't know how to lead, how to unite...they only know how to bring about conflict. They divide by race, theology, ideology, wealth, and class. That's why they're always talking about those things. They won't let it go.

[Warsaw]

I told you it wasn't done. :saddowns:

I hope they get the ball rolling on those revisions within a couple of years, or this could flat-out suck in a big way, very quickly...right when I have to enter the workforce and start applying for this shit.

[Dwood]

This thread officially sucks, again.


...IRS, GOVERNMENT, HEALTH CARE, OH MY! :tinfoil:

What's worse than Glenn Beck? Conspiracy theories. The most ironic thing so far about this debate is that Glenn Beck, himself, debunked whack conspiracy theories.

Honestly, there is so much distrust between people. Not only in government, but between average people. No wonder there are so many crazy things flying around about, well, everything.

Ignorance is bliss! You can trust everyone but those who oppose your views!

[SiriusTexra]

This health care thing won't be repealed, and it won't be fought against. This will be the same as it always has been. Republicans who "let this thing happen" will turn around and go "BOO DEMOCRATS" so they can keep their seats and keep tricking people. Both parties are the same shit.

Oceania is at war with Eurasia.
Eurasia are our friends.
Oceania was never friends with Eurasia, they are our eternal enemies.
Eurasia are our friends and always have been.

A long, slow process of building a system so people become accustomed to it over time and think it's "not so bad" when in actuality they haven't seen what the thing does yet, and probably couldn't comprehend it.

The public will adjust to suit whatever is imposed, and they've tested this long enough to know now that we will not do 1 single fucking thing to stop them.

Because a Government(public funds) is now the primary decider of monetary funds for healthcare, all the big pharma will up the prices and rates because the government can pay for it. It's all just another way to put people in debt. This whole healthcare bullshit is nothing but the foundations for the solving of the "population problem" that I won't go into here as it sounds completely fucking ridiculous.

Healthcare reform is good when it's adapted and written AND READ by the real public servants, for public needs, but if it's being passed around a stupid loophole in what is supposed to be a democracy, and not being read by anyone involved in signing the thing into action, it's completely fucked up as it currently stands. That doesn't even count the future amendments you can expect.

I mean, technically the amount of general vague misdirection in this 2000 some page lead tombstone allows them to simply reverse anything "good" it says it does, if it was even in the bill.

Just like Kevin Rudd in Australia, promising lots of shit on the trail, later, it was all dropped and edited, but lots of extra crap was added that no one asked for, because of the "recession". The entire reason he pledged all those "brave" commitments in the beginning (along with obama) was because he and everyone who was within reach of the 2007 Bilderberg meeting knew the bubble was going to be popped, and the bailouts were coming. They can promise the moon and take it back again if it's in light of a disaster.

They are simply tearing down the purposefully made shitty nasty moldy albeit "functional" drapes so they can put up a new set of shiny pretty iron bars. Burning Rome.
Helping it destroy itself so they can rebuild it anew and bypass any existing constitutions. All the while making the stupid fucking idiots WANT IT.

As Joe Biden said as he introduced Obama on the "11th hour" of the signing, as Obama glared to his left hoping cameras didn't pick it up, "This is a BIG fuckin deal". Indeed, it is.


quality=high width=768 height=768 parameter=parameter_value

[Rob Oplawar]

Dane, by including the tinfoil hat animation you clearly are at least aware of how paranoid you sound. Whether you are seriously that retarded or if you are this forum's most dedicated troll I may never know.

[Roostervier]

let's insult people because they have different views than us




:mech2:

[mech]

Will my hoaers finally be able to be insured?

[Anton]

uhh hey guy, IRS is running this.

but what the hell, they'll do a good job...right? i mean, the federal goverment has a great track record. just look at Amtrak, USPS, Social Security, Medicaid, Cash for Clunkers, Public Education, NASA, Federal Reserve, Vietnam, DEA and "War on Drugs", Waco, 911, FDA, FCC, FEMA and Katrina relief, Afghanistan, and the Internal Revenue Serv....oh wait.

It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to say they fucking suck at everything.



That's what progressives do. They don't know how to lead, how to unite...they only know how to bring about conflict. They divide by race, theology, ideology, wealth, and class. That's why they're always talking about those things. They won't let it go.

No shit the IRS is set to govern it, did I deny that? No, I did not. I'm not brain dead. I'm skeptical of a lot of things, but to have distrust for everything causes chaos on its own right. You say that progressives can't lead, unite, etc... but you fail to realize several huge movements in history have been by led by progressives. That does not, however, excuse the behavior of modern progressives. You say that progressives are there to divide, and can't let things go? Are you blind? Look at conservatives in recent history. How often do you hear white supremacy phrases? Religious discrimination? Especially from members of the Tea Party movement; I am aware that not all members of this movement are totally nuts.

You cannot press one issue on one particular political position.

Also, I don't have distrust in someone who has a different view than me. I wasn't targeting Dane. Dane is a cool guy, but to just come with absurd arguments is just..

[Dwood]

Anton in response to you, I have to say: Affirmative Action.

[sleepy1212]

you fail to realize several huge movements in history have been by led by progressives.

Like what? Prohibition? lol seriously, i'm talking about guys like Roosevelt and Wilson.


That does not, however, excuse the behavior of modern progressives. You say that progressives are there to divide, and can't let things go? Are you blind? Look at conservatives Progressive State Run Media in recent history. How often do you hear white supremacy phrases? Religious discrimination?

I didn't say Democrat did I? nor liberal, conservative, etc... i said Progressive. Progressivism is on both sides of the aisle. (see: Prohibition). For the most part progressives are fascist but the social justice mentality that they have now days is Marxist. Basically every movement known to man, however remote, that opposes capitalism and freedom, has become the amalgam that is the modern Progressive movement. The only place left for conservatism (not republican) is to oppose them. Beware progressive republicans (Bush, McCain, etc...) they lie.


Especially from members of the Tea Party movement; I am aware that not all members of this movement are totally nuts.

Say NO to network news!

The tea party movement is about upholding the constitution. The health care plan clearly violates this.


Now where's my Libertarian homies?

[Anton]

Say no to network news? I agree. I've already stated in this thread I oppose any kind of national media that involves news, and I do not take them seriously.

I'm sorry, but I'm aware that the progressives aren't democrat nor republicans, specifically, and I did not say they were. I should have clarified and I shouldn't have used conservatives as an example for my argument.

Dwood, I'll respond to you when I get home from class and I'll go into further detail with my arguments.

[ICEE]

I wish I knew enough about this issue to argue at you guys. But I don't. So I will stay quiet.

More people need to follow this maxim tbh.

[Roostervier]

i can't say i like most modern progressives, if any of them; however, it'd be pretty stupid to say that prohibition was all that they got done. they did do some good, like borrow ideas from the populist party. direct election of senators, recall, initiative, referendum, the australian ballot, etc.

[Cojafoji]

The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of postmarket safety and outcomes data on each device that—‘‘(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and ‘‘(B) is a class III device; or ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable.

14 ‘‘(B) In this paragraph, the term ‘data’ refers to in
15formation respecting a device described in paragraph (1),
16 including claims data, patient survey data, standardized
17 analytic files that allow for the pooling and analysis of
18 data from disparate data environments, electronic health
19 records, and any other data deemed appropriate by the
20 Secretary"

mandatory? thoughts?

[paladin]

let's insult people because they have different views than us
:mech2:

Sounds like the msnbc on the tea party movement.
Also, WHAT? public funds being used to fund abortion?!?!?!?


Health Department: Student's abortion outlined in consent form

By STEPHANIE KLEIN
MyNorthwest.com
The mother of a Ballard High School student is furious over her claim that the school helped her daughter seek an abortion, but the King County Public Health Department says the service was outlined in a consent form.

Admitting she signed a form, the mother told KOMO-TV she figured services provided by the Ballard Teen Health Center included treatment for stomach viruses or even birth control, but not the termination of a pregnancy.

The student's mother, who wishes to remain unidentified, said her daughter was given a pregnancy test at the school's health center and then the school provided her with the time and transportation to a clinic, during school hours, to have an abortion.

"The form describes what the parent is consenting to, but also illustrates what a youth may independently consent to," T.J. Cosgrove, King County Public Health Department Manager for School Based Programs, told KIRO Radio's Dave Ross Wednesday.

Cosgrove read the consent form to Ross: "Youth may independently access reproductive health care at any age. They may independently receive drug and alcohol services and mental health counseling from age 13."

The form doesn't specifically list "abortion" and Cosgrove said it would be impossible to list all of the services, treatment options, and diagnostic procedures associated with pregnancy.

"I think there's room on the form to list one or two conditions, but I think limiting it to one or two conditions is probably not practical."

Cosgrove added that ultimately, the student could have gone out on her own to seek these services after school and they "encourage people to have that conversation with their kids."




The story of the 15 year old Ballard High School student who got an abortion without her parent's consent is disturbing on so many levels:

It's a continuation of the leftist strategy to use our children as their ideological labratory. Whether the issue is gay rights, presidential politics, or social or ideological issues (in this case, abortion), the only perspective that is tolerated in the schools is a leftist viewpoint. The progressive movement is hell-bent on controlling the minds of kids - and if they have to exclude parents from the process, so be it.

The mother of this 15-year-old says she should have been informed as her daughter was given a pregnancy test at school - and then sent in for an abortion - all during school hours. How can anyone say the King County Board of Heath (which operates the school health clinics) is right to exclude the parents from the conversation?

Another disturbing aspect of this story is that the girl was reportedly told that if she didn't want to tell her mom, it wouldn't cost her anything. That means the taxpayers paid for her abortion. There are a lot of citizens who have a sincere moral/religious objection to abortions. A central issue in the national health care debate this weekend was that taxpayer money should never have to go to abortions.

I wonder how many other abortions have been performed on high school kids in this region on the taxpayer dime?

Finally, the mom did sign a consent form giving her daughter access to the student health center. But on the school website, it says the services provided include "birth control" and "emergency contraception". There is no way any reasonable person would assume that an abortion falls under either of those categories.

On one hand, we have government officials telling us we need to be more responsible for our kids. On the other, they are doing everything possible to drive a wedge between parents and children. This story is one of the more outrageous abuses of government control of our kids that I've ever seen.

Thats shits wrong.

[sdavis117]

Like what? Prohibition? lol seriously, i'm talking about guys like Roosevelt and Wilson.
Prohibition was a religious conservative action, just to tell you. Back then they did call themselves Progressives, but that was because the Economic and Social ideals were more liberal. The progressives back then would vote against the progressives of today.

[Dwood]

Oh crap oh crap oh crap oh crap guys the revisions to theHealth Care bill goes back to the house for a vote again because of several measures someone tacked on that were not even related to the health bill!

http://townhall.com/blog/g/1ea45c84-6b34-4c11-aab0-66b20d2ad979?comments=true&commentsSortDirection=Descending

[sdavis117]

The bullshit being emitted by that website is painful.

[sleepy1212]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/sleepy1212/THwhat2.jpg

now do you trust them?

how 'bout now?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/sleepy1212/THwhat.jpg


:haw:

[Dwood]

The degree to which the site's views disagree with my views are painful.

ftfy. Oh and I only meant to link to that article itself b/c it seemed fairly objective.

[Anton]

That site's views are horribly skewed and you know it. I rather watch fox news than read that bull shit.

[Disaster]

That site's views are horribly skewed and you know it. I rather watch fox news than read that bull shit.

This. I'm conservative but that website is a bit, extreme?

[SiriusTexra]

Urgh, wow, Townhall. Dude, cmon.


Cryptome (http://cryptome.org/) > All.


This is a site that is trying to be destroyed by lawsuits from everyone like the Pentagon and Microsoft. Every document concerning anything devious you can ensure it's made it's way to cryptome via whistleblowers. Microsofts and Yahoos spy guides and selling of msn account info to corporations, to the ballistics reports from Waco.

[Kornman00]

Also, WHAT? public funds being used to fund abortion?!?!?!?

Thats shits wrong.
Would you rather her and her could-have-been-baby claiming aid for the next 18 years along with ruining her continued education?


If you're claiming support for abortion is wrong, I sure as hell hope you don't support the death penalty or are against gun-laws.

[=sw=warlord]

Would you rather her and her could-have-been-baby claiming aid for the next 18 years along with ruining her continued education?


If you're claiming support for abortion is wrong, I sure as hell hope you don't support the death penalty or are against gun-laws.

This.
Also, I seem to remember most abortions are done in the early stages, when it isn't even a fetus just a blob of cells, no matter how you look at it, killing a fly inflicts more pain and damage than destroying a very small cluster of cells.
The way I see it, if your going to scream murder for abortions but advocate gun slinging and the death penalty then your pretty much a hypocrit.

[Dwood]

Would you rather her and her could-have-been-baby claiming aid for the next 18 years along with ruining her continued education?


If you're claiming support for abortion is wrong, I sure as hell hope you don't support the death penalty or are against gun-laws.

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with supporting the Death penalty and being against Gun Laws while claiming Abortion is wrong. People who are being killed by the death penalty had their chance. It is our right to own guns, and children killed by Abortion have had no chance to show the world what they're capable of.

I couldn't care less about the taxes or aid the unborn may claim in the future, their lives should be protected.

E: The difference between murderers getting the death penalty and an unborn child being killed are for typically the opposite reasons. In one, the murderer made a mistake, in the other, the parent of the child made a mistake and doesn't want the consequences.

[Bodzilla]

you do realize that it's not a child right?
or a baby?


...
or do you.

And who gives a fuck if they fucked up and didnt wear a condom, Considering taht shit is preached against by the catholic church and a whole heap of other churchs, do you want to pay money to support these people?
It's a bit like supporting smokers on the Operating theatre.

[=sw=warlord]

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with supporting the Death penalty and being against Gun Laws while claiming Abortion is wrong. People who are being killed by the death penalty had their chance. It is our right to own guns, and children killed by Abortion have had no chance to show the world what they're capable of.

So wait, your advocating a legal form of murder of a thinking lifeform and yet your screaming murder about the termination of a fuzzball of barely alive cells?
By that definition, masturbating kills hundreds of "potential" children, purely because your despiving the sperm the chance to fertilize an egg.
Don't even start with the gun thing because we've already had several threads involving that discussion and each time that shit has shot down the drain quicker than chains on laxatives.

[sdavis117]

unborn child
Oxymoron.

[sleepy1212]

You guys are all stupid.

I don't want the federal government paying for health care like this, let alone abortions. I don't even want my state paying for abortions. conversely, i don't give a shit if you have an abortion.... It's not my baby your killing. It's not my job to force you to conform to my morality, and there's no way in hell it's the government's job. Trying to legislate morality is the stupidest thing ever, it's been done since the beginning of government and it never works. Just one more issue we'd all be happier if they got the fuck out of.

[Bodzilla]

what the fuck are you babbling about


???


you think by allowing people to get abortions they're pushing morality and trying to legislate for it for those truly awesome god fearing Christians.

lmfao.
your smoking some good shit my friend.

[sleepy1212]

you think by allowing people to get abortions they're pushing morality and trying to legislate for it for those truly awesome god fearing Christians..

wtf kind of god-awful sentence is that!?

but no, if i'm reading this properly i think you might need to l2readingcomprehension but i will try again:


ideally government should not have an opinion on abortion, people should make up their own minds.
government should not make laws concerning abortion, or any other medical procedure.
i don't want to pay any taxes for your medical procedure that i don't personally agree with.
I have a moral objection to abortion and the government should not force me to participate (taxes- health care bill).
If you have money, insurance, then go ahead...kill your baby.
If not, close your fucking legs.

[Kornman00]

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with supporting the Death penalty and being against Gun Laws while claiming Abortion is wrong. People who are being killed by the death penalty had their chance. It is our right to own guns, and children killed by Abortion have had no chance to show the world what they're capable of.

I couldn't care less about the taxes or aid the unborn may claim in the future, their lives should be protected.

E: The difference between murderers getting the death penalty and an unborn child being killed are for typically the opposite reasons. In one, the murderer made a mistake, in the other, the parent of the child made a mistake and doesn't want the consequences.
Innocent people have been sent to prison before and convicted of crimes they did not commit. We should not be putting a person to death because we can never be so sure, beyond a resonable doubt, that they are the indeed the guilty party.

An innocent person can spend 10 years in jail, then the real fucker can come forward and guess what happens to that person who was originally commited? Gets set free with a 'have a nice day'. And those 10 years our system stole from them? "Oh well" is the response.

These "mistakes" happen because this fucking country has so many people hell bent on feeding religious ideas into the system. Gov't, education, law, etc. It's these religious based beliefs that the churches (not talking about people who are of a belief: it's the church itself) try to imprint which are holding people back. IE, the church wants to "protect children from themselves" and not talk about sex. Sex is going to happen, like it or not. It's better to educate these people and give them the proper tools (read: condoms) than to let them just go raw turkey, also potentially spreading STDs in the mix. What about rape victims? They didn't have the choice. Guess they have to suffer the "mistake" of turning some dude on huh?


I'm not talking about no one having guns; of course someone deserves to own protection. I'm talking about gun-laws which restrict what you can have. It makes no sense for someone to personally own an arms-room worth of rifles. Especially fully automatic ones.

[=sw=warlord]

You know it's painfull to see that the children of the land of the "free" are more closed minded than people in australia, the land of censorship and inherently corruption.
It's pretty saddening actually, modern Australia started out as a prison island and yet, people there seem to be more down to earth than those from the supposed land of opportunity.

I think Kornman wrote out my own thoughts as clear as anyone possibly could.

[CrAsHOvErRide]

No it's fucking worse that Americans are talking like they are reinventing the wheel.

Health Care existed in Europe for over 50 years so don't pretend this shit won't work. It works great believe it or not.

[=sw=warlord]

No it's fucking worse that Americans are talking like they are reinventing the wheel.

Health Care existed in Europe for over 50 years so don't pretend this shit won't work. It works great believe it or not.
Yeah, but they dont get all the pennies in their pockets from having extortionate pricing on simple health care, America is driven by capitalism, if theres a way to find personal gains you can bet they'l find a way, don't be too suprised if they try and look into taxing the amount of air people breathe in a yearly basis.

[Dwood]

This thread has served its purpose, healthcare was debated, and now most of us don't even want to stay on topic and/or refrain from doing anything but bash one another.

If you wish to continue the debate of this, Abortion, and other topics, please make a new thread- I see this one going no where but down the drain.

Thanks.

[Bodzilla]

Just wanna throw this out there before we're done with this dwood.


Yeah, but they dont get all the pennies in their pockets from having extortionate pricing on simple health care, America is driven by capitalism, if theres a way to find personal gains you can bet they'l find a way, don't be too suprised if they try and look into taxing the amount of air people breathe in a yearly basis.
Contrary to your belief America is not the only country in the world where individuals strive for money and will do what ever they can to get it.

There are sleazeballs, extortionists and money driven people all over the world, not just in america.
And these systems have worked well in those country's so......

[paladin]

Well, looks like Obama was wrong, and his Obamacare is a baby killer...

Taxpayer Dollars OK'd for PA Obamacare Abortions (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38056)
Obamacare abortions on tap (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/13/obamacare-abortions-on-tap/)
Obamacare: Maryland to offer federally funded abortions (http://americaswatchtower.com/2010/07/18/obamacare-maryland-to-offer-federally-funded-abortions/)
Maryland Becomes Second State to Offer Federally Funded Abortions under Obamacare (http://usactionnews.com/2010/07/maryland-becomes-second-state-to-offer-federally-funded-abortions-under-obamacare/)

I dont care if someone wants to get an abortion, but I think its wrong and dont want women to get one on my dime.

Gentlemen, we have a dilemma here...

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/184/greghouse.jpg

[sleepy1212]

Gentlemen, we have a dilemma here...]

Court ordered surrender of children to Children's Services>CYS are federal and state agences: Abortions are funded by the state>Court ordered abortions

[rossmum]

^^^ Dane, when did you change your username, sig and avatar?

I could not give any less of a fuck, but then again I'm not all indoctrinated by outdated views which make any and all abortion evil.

[CN3089]

Federally funded abortions

Good.


Another reason why Canada is better than America: Henry Morgentaler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgentaler), CM.

[sdavis117]

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/16/national-right-life-committee/abortions-pennsylvania-paid-federal-dollars-not-so/

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-false.gif

Elective Abortions are not covered.

[sleepy1212]

^^^ Dane, when did you change your username, sig and avatar?

I could not give any less of a fuck, but then again I'm not all indoctrinated by outdated views which make any and all abortion evil.

lol ross

infanticide is as old as Babylon and as recent as present day China and India (see: female infanticide). If you knew anything about history you'd know, old ideas never get old, they just get repackaged.

[rossmum]

lol ross

infanticide is as old as Babylon and as recent as present day China and India (see: female infanticide). If you knew anything about history you'd know, old ideas never get old, they just get repackaged.
yes because the government is totally going to allow court ordered abortions!!!!

if you actually believe even the most retardedly nanny-state-like of western nations will even consider that for a moment you are seriously deluded

[Cojafoji]

The Chinese government doesn't kill children, so it really has no bearing on court ordered abortions lol.

[sleepy1212]

The Chinese government doesn't kill children, so it really has no bearing on court ordered abortions lol.

Chinese One-Child Policy - though it's more a "two-child" policy now since most of it is being changed.

[Cojafoji]

Chinese One-Child Policy - though it's more a "two-child" policy now since most of it is being changed.
Yes. I know. But they don't drag the kid out to a field and shoot them. I know all about the infanticide that goes on at the family level, but the harshest punishment given out by the government is forced sterilization, and fines. I've never heard about forced abortion in China either. Yes, there's been a relaxation of the policy for more rural families that require farming help etc, and also leniency in cases of mental retardation and birth defects.

[thehoodedsmack]

One-Child Policy doesn't kill children either. They get fined, not murdered. The only reason that gender-based infanticide occurs in China is because some parents feel that male children are more desirable. Blame the parents.

Edit: Cojafoji'd

[=sw=warlord]

I could not give any less of a fuck, but then again I'm not all indoctrinated by outdated views which make any and all abortion evil.

This.

[ExAm]

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/16/national-right-life-committee/abortions-pennsylvania-paid-federal-dollars-not-so/

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-false.gif

Elective Abortions are not covered.

Paladin, take note. Don't jump to conclusions.

[paladin]

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/16/national-right-life-committee/abortions-pennsylvania-paid-federal-dollars-not-so/

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-false.gif

Elective Abortions are not covered.


Paladin, take note. Don't jump to conclusions.

I dont care if its elective or only court ordered. I do not want my money going toward abortions.

"Its okay, the government is making me do it" Thats almost worse.

[sleepy1212]

Yes. I know. But they don't drag the kid out to a field and shoot them. I know all about the infanticide that goes on at the family level, but the harshest punishment given out by the government is forced sterilization, and fines. I've never heard about forced abortion in China either. Yes, there's been a relaxation of the policy for more rural families that require farming help etc, and also leniency in cases of mental retardation and birth defects.

There's plenty of info about it, best I could find was a ton of anecdotal evidence of kidnappings, coercion, and forced abortions. However, the highest fines were several times a typical family's earnings for a year and the child, if born, would typically be denied education and health care. While the government may not have literally held the mother down and shoved a needle in, the threats would be just as effective.

Also, infanticide outside of parent choice was commonly enforced to control the slave and low class populations in ancient peoples.

In other words, Abortion = reinventing the wheel :tinfoil:

[thehoodedsmack]

I dont care if its elective or only court ordered. I do not want my money going toward abortions.

"Its okay, the government is making me do it" Thats almost worse.

What's worse is a woman whose safety is risked by complications in childbearing, unable to afford to remove the child threatening her life. It'll happen. And that part of the healthcare plan is for her, and people like her.

[=sw=warlord]

I dont care if its elective or only court ordered. I do not want my money going toward abortions.

"Its okay, the government is making me do it" Thats almost worse.

Then let other people pay the tab, Everyone can't pay the tab at once.

@ sleepy: How exactly doe's voluntary abortion relate to forced abortions in the past?
You seem to think people having abortions under this health plan are directly related to those in china and those from centuries past.

[rossmum]

Wow, you pro-lifers are precious, just precious.

It's like I'm talking to Dane, except even more insane.

[Dwood]

Wow, you pro-lifers are precious, just precious.

It's like I'm talking to Dane, except even more insane.

Do I need to start pulling out old Dane threads?

[paladin]

Then let other people pay the tab, Everyone can't pay the tab at once.


So are you recommending I dont pay my federal income tax if I disagree with how its being distributed? I dont think so...

One person isnt picking up the tab, its a collective to taxes

Also, baby killers

[=sw=warlord]

So are you recommending I dont pay my federal income tax if I disagree with how its being distributed? I dont think so...

One person isnt picking up the tab, its a collective to taxes

Also, baby killers
Are you saying you are paying taxes to entirely fund these abortions?
No didn't think so.
Technically a foetus isn't a baby until later stages and last I looked, most abortions are carried out long before then.

[DarkHalo003]

I'm not going to comment much on Healthcare (because it's just too in-depth for me to post anything constructive about it right now), but I will say that I seriously wonder why our President would not abort this from his Agenda since it easily will further indebt our country. I mean, 2014, that's 4 years to get XXXXXXXXX amount of money when we already have XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX amount in debt.

so much for good policies

[Aerowyn]

I dont care if someone wants to get an abortion, but I think its wrong and dont want women to get one on my dime.


You know, I am not going to raise a debate about abortion but I am at least going to say this.

I personally don't like the welfare system, but guess what? We all pay into it whether we like it or not. I don't want people to sit on their fat asses and do nothing but pop out children on my dime.

But we all can't get what we want, can we?

I'd rather see a woman get an abortion when she knows that she can't support it, and have one less person sucking on the tit of the government. :P


ALSO, if you're going to link to an article for backup, at least have the dignity to choose a place that isn't blatantly biased in nature. Or an article that doesn't use the word "OBAMACARE" in it.

[ICEE]

A bold move, offering abortions on healthcare. Such a heated issue is sure to become heated even further when you add taxpayer dollars into the ring.

[paladin]

Theres a difference between allowing someone to sit on their ass and depriving another of life.

Just throwing that out there.



I'd rather see a woman get an abortion when she knows that she can't support it, and have one less person sucking on the tit of the government. :P


Might as well kill everyone on welfare. Better to give up on people and have one less person group sucking on the tit of the government

[thehoodedsmack]

Do you consider all abortion a deprivation of life, or just after the point of brain activity?

If the former, how do you feel knowing your body deprives millions of lives through the internal production and absorption of sperm? What is the difference between jerking it and aborting a fetus early in development, before any cognitive activity occurs?

If the latter, would you be fine with the same restrictions on abortion, plus restrictions to limit abortion after the development of the brain? Examples being fines if the abortion should occur after a certain time frame.

Me, I'm the latter. I don't consider it deprivation of life before the fetus becomes a functioning life-form.

[rossmum]

Theres a difference between allowing someone to sit on their ass and depriving another of life.

Just throwing that out there.
oh no you're depriving a foetus (which is for all intents and purposes a parasite) of life it might have if it actually survives its term and childbirth and hrhdsgdfjhjghjfgh

are you next going to argue that condoms deprive hypothetical foetus (what's the plural anyway) of life? do you have memories of your mother's uterus?

i mean sure it's shitty and all, but for some people it's just a better option and it would be absolutely fucking retarded (and typically conservative) to enforce an outdated set of morals on people just because every foetus is a special snowflake.

[paladin]

Tell me, who gets an abortion 24hrs-6 days after conception? No one. They either take the plan B pill right after or have to wait til they realize what happens. 77% of abortions happen during or before the 10th week. So your baby looks like this (http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-10-weeks)when you decide to kill it.

But your missing my point. I DONT CARE IF SOMEONE WANTS TO GET AN ABORTION. I DONT WANT TO FOOT THE BILL FOR IT.

[rossmum]

Baby. Foetus. Different things.

[paladin]

Still living

[Kornman00]

Ugh

These kinds of topics go absolutely no where so why do people continue to try and debate the "wrongs"/"rights" of abortion? In the end, you're just regurgitating your opinion against someone else's (hardly anyone has brought actual facts into this topic). The chance of them taking you're point of view is about as likely as you will take theirs. If this is all this thread is going to continue as I'm just going to re-lock it.

[rossmum]

Still living
So are dandelions and cockroaches, but I don't see you defending them to the last.

Yes, it will eventually become a human being. No, it is not yet a human being. It is a bunch of cells which lives off of the mother by parasitic means, and then it develops into a little half-person which is still too busy developing to give a fuck. I believe that there's a cutoff either here or there - I can't remember which - and so there should be, but saying that abortion should be banned on account of it being the killing of a baby is absolutely incorrect. It's not a baby yet, it can't think, and until very late development (i.e. way later than anyone will usually abort) it basically operates on reflexes alone.

[paladin]

I told you to after my post kornsmoker!

Also, theres a difference between a fetus and dandelion. A dandelions doesn't grow into a human being

[rossmum]

So killing everything but human embryos is perfectly okay, but holy fuck don't you dare get an abortion even though it's inside your body, living off your blood supply, and it's your fault it's there? Sweet.

[CN3089]

I told you to after my post kornsmoker!

Also, theres a difference between a fetus and dandelion. A dandelions doesn't grow into a human being

If you masturbate you are a baby killer. Also, if you menstruate.

[Aerowyn]

Tell me, who gets an abortion 24hrs-6 days after conception? No one. They either take the plan B pill right after or have to wait til they realize what happens. 77% of abortions happen during or before the 10th week. So your baby looks like this (http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-10-weeks)when you decide to kill it.

I'm starting to think you're one of those people who thinks that Plan B is "OMG THE ABORTION PILL POOR BABIESSSSS."

Men like you are the FIRST ONES to run out on a woman when YOU get her pregnant, and never look back or offer any sort of parental/monetary assistance to care for the child you fight so hard to force the woman to have.

It's like you blame WOMEN for getting pregnant just because they are capable. It takes two to tango, dear.



But your missing my point. I DONT CARE IF SOMEONE WANTS TO GET AN ABORTION. I DONT WANT TO FOOT THE BILL FOR IT.

I DON'T CARE IF PEOPLE GET ON WELFARE. I DON'T WANT TO FOOT THE BILL FOR IT.

We all do things we don't want to do. So you can either stop paying your taxes and feel like you're making a difference, or you can just grit your teeth and get over it. Or, you can go live somewhere where abortion DEFINITELY isn't legal.

Like Saudi Arabia.

[Kornman00]

Maybe if they made condoms smell and taste like Big Macs, the majority of America (http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/) would actually use them.

Well except for rapists who force their seed on (or 'in' rather...) women. Guess they're just suppose to be shit out of luck :ugh:.




You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CN3089 again.