On Debates and Debating

[teh lag]

Let's have a bit of a rundown of how to conduct ourselves during discussion of a Hot-Button Issue, so as to avoid things such as those that have been happening for the past few months. There was once a time when I believed that we could have discussions without these childish rules, but evidently there's quite a few children here pretending to be members.

So, someone posts a topic! And it gets you riled up! SO riled up!! Or, you see other people getting riled up! SO riled up!! What should you do?

Make an edgy, cynical comment about stereotypes? (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?p=528359#post528359)
Decide that if shit's going down it's gonna go down hard? (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20986&p=528500&viewfull=1#post528500)
Pwn a noob? (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20986&p=528460&viewfull=1#post528460)
Make a snarky comment that devalues the meaning of the word "troll"?
Go the all-sarcasm route? (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20986&p=528351&viewfull=1#post528351)
Tell people to flat-out stop posting because they don't have the right perspective? (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20986&p=528328&viewfull=1#post528328)
Declare that someone who's been here all this time is, in fact, an idiot in disguise?

No.
No.
NO. (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14231)
NO.
No, you don't.

Why not? Because then, for whatever reason, it makes these discussions fall apart and become meaningless back-and-forth between people who are absolutely convinced that they're right. Perhaps with some red and yellow flying around and most likely with a closed thread. I'm pretty disappointed that we can't keep our collective cool in these threads and take a little sarcasm or whatever; the fact is that we evidently can't and so, rather than continue this cycle that will inevitably lead to otherwise good members racking up detentions and bans for unrelated offenses (we are a games & modding site after all, not a center of political and ethical philosophy), I think we need to establish a few things that shouldn't be happening.

I don't mind if you'll make a comment about perspective. When you decide to turn that comment into a declaration that nobody else should be posting, you've entered the problem zone. I don't (well, shouldn't) mind people weaving some jokes into their arguments. When your entire post is nothing but a joke, you've entered the problem zone (at least, when people don't recognize it for what it is). And for God's sake, everyone needs to calm down and stop throwing around "troll" like middle-schoolers with obscenities.

If you're going to swing in on a chandelier of facetiousness and ill-will, don't bother.
If you're going to save the day for the internet and single-handedly call out all the buffoons from your mighty throne of superiority, don't bother.
If you're not going to put some clear thought and effort into a post, don't bother.

Yes, we should be allowed to have a lighter, kinder atmosphere where people can crack a few jokes to make their point. We can't handle that though. We've had about 10 threads in the past 3 months or so that have become some form of debate or another, and very few of them have ended in anything other than verbal diarrhea and a staff member telling everyone to shut up. We've also had a few staff members behaving in less-than-exemplary manners, but that's another story for another day. What matters now is that these threads stop ending this way. A debate section may or may not be coming - that depends on if the staff team can get itself together and do it or not. Until then, I ask that you all stop being so damn crazy when it comes to topics discussing anything controversial.

Some of you reported posts. For that I'm at least grateful, and I'm sorry that lack of action - on my part as well as other staff members - led to this and once again added to the perception that the site is headed by incompetence. I accept blame for this and in the future I will try to handle situations like this better, so that people don't have the opportunity to turn them into this. The thing is, very few posts here would actually be bad on their own. Who can't take a little joke? Who can't spot an obvious troll for humorous effect? Well, evidently we can't. Not when we're all so excited and not when there are so many of them in one place. I have had (and continue to have, no matter how many times I admit this) too much faith that we as a site are capable of handling a touch of bumpiness in arguments.

I've been criticized for locking threads too easily, which is why I'm reopening the Wikileaks thread in hopes that it won't become a nightmare so easily after I've taken the time to write this. There are many infractions and warnings that deserve to be given out here. They will be taken care of in due time - a few users are on the threshold of a stay in Detention and I don't have the time to think those decisions through right now. Until then, I hope that you guys don't make me add to the list I have right now of posts that are getting a visit from the mod fairy in a few hours.

[Good_Apollo]

Color me impressed, I've agreed the whole time.

[flibitijibibo]

This isn't stickied because?

In case anyone TL;DR's, here's one thing you should be taking from this: Conflicting opinion != troll. teh lag understates how often this word is used incorrectly these days (not just here, but everywhere).

+rep when I can.

[Ifafudafi]

This isn't stickied because?

Because when you sticky a thread nobody reads it :downs:

tbqh I was thinking about ranting about this myself but thanks for sparing me the trouble; that be wisdom in that thar post

[paladin]

This isn't stickied because?

In case anyone TL;DR's, here's one thing you should be taking from this: Conflicting opinion != troll. teh lag understates how often this word is used incorrectly these days (not just here, but everywhere).

+rep when I can.

Yes, but it doesn't help when people deliberately act in a way that provokes another.

[Bodzilla]

well stop looking for excuse's to take offence or report it.

Let the staff decide if it's worth doing anything about and dont take the bait.

[Good_Apollo]

well stop looking for excuse's to take offence or report it.

Let the staff decide if it's worth doing anything about and dont take the bait.Excuse me for my belligerence, but the staff rarely do their job. :shrug:

[Bodzilla]

then find another place thats up to your high standards and post there.

These are the rules, follow them and you'll be fine, if your gunna keep that shit up you aint gunna last.
simple as that.

I can guarantee you that everything that ever gets reported gets evaluated and assessed, just because it's not the outcome you where expecting or wanted does not mean we are lazy incompetent and swept it under the rug.
everything.
If you want to play by the absolute rules with no leniency at all then say good bye to sarcasm, jokes, puns... and an enjoyable forum.

[Timo]

*Timo for mod 2011*

But seriously, this is all good and positive and all, but asking people to play nice/deleting bad posts < handing out the odd infraction. Making detention threads sucks (I normally temp banned people instead of sitting down for half an hour finding posts and composing a nice way to say buck up or get out), but it gets the message across much better when a post appears red to everyone instead of deleted - to everyone, not just the person getting infracted. It also stops people bitching at a few people for not volunteering enough time to one small, relatively insignificant website on the internets.


e: i'm sleepy, i'll add to this later (probably not)

[Kornman00]

Lawl, another butthurt mod.

At least teh_lag can own up to his shortcomings and the state of the forums.
Ok guys, I guess I'm butt hurt. I'll rally the moderators up so we can all post our own threads detailing our shortcomings (because the people we infract obviously don't have any themselves) and get TheGhost to make a State of the Union Modacity address.


Being snarky gets us no where. Got a problem? Like Bod said, take it up with a mod. Got a problem with mods? Bring it up to an admin, and be sure to have the backing documentation to support your claim just as Timo says we do for perma-bans. Don't just go around calling stuff gay (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19587&p=527925&viewfull=1#post527925), fail (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19587&p=528163&viewfull=1#post528163), or trolling in a thread made by a moderator trying to bring some sense to these forums.

[paladin]

well stop looking for excuse's to take offence or report it.

Let the staff decide if it's worth doing anything about and dont take the bait.

I report everything I see that needs it. That doesn't change the fact that some people deliberately say things to people to get them in a frenzy.


you have no understanding on the issue.
Hypocrite

[Bodzilla]

i never said i was perfect and i never report or rep people over shit like that.

ever.

Becoming a mod shouldnt mean the complete absence of an opinion.
as long as i never use the mod powers to act on my opinion there isnt a problem.

[Dwood]

Hey guys it would also help if we had a debate section that had a simple math check before they post to be sure the person posting isn't drunk.

[ICEE]

this needs to be coupled with action. people make posts like this because;

A) rep

B) lulz

if your going to infract/detain/ban some members, you'd better be prepared to do it to the "cool kids" too.

[Donut]

Hey guys it would also help if we had a debate section that had a simple math check before they post to be sure the person posting isn't drunk.
^ with a little counter that tells us how many people have failed the test, just for luls.

seriously though, im in full agreement with lag's post. i actually avoided posting in that wikileaks thread because i just couldnt tell who was trying to piss people off and who was being serious, and i didnt feel like dealing with a bunch of people telling me im wrong because my perception of the situation. its been like this with quite a few other debate threads too, to the point where i just dont click on them anymore because theyre all filled with the same shit: people belittling other people because their opinion is different.
E: with icee on this one. seems like older members get away with sarcasm and troll posts alot more than other members do. you know who you are.

[Dwood]

Good think I lock my own debate threads before they get out of hand. :downs:

[paladin]

i never said i was perfect and i never report or rep people over shit like that.

ever.

Becoming a mod shouldnt mean the complete absence of an opinion.
as long as i never use the mod powers to act on my opinion there isnt a problem.

But as a 'mod' you are held to a higher standard.

[flibitijibibo]

Higher standard != no your opinion

[paladin]

Higher standard != no your opinion

So you don't think that mods should be model users? And if a mod/admin is acting genuinely bad, its ok for other follow in their foot steps? Sure its my opinion, but generally speaking, people of authority are held to higher standards and scrutiny than the gen pop.

[flibitijibibo]

Conversely, opinion != bad

[paladin]

Just saying, being a mod doesn't just mean you can lock threads and delete posts. You are here to set an example.

[teh lag]

this needs to be coupled with action. people make posts like this because;

A) rep

B) lulz

if your going to infract/detain/ban some members, you'd better be prepared to do it to the "cool kids" too.

It (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20986&p=528305&viewfull=1#post528305) hasn't (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20986&p=528351&viewfull=1#post528351) been? (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20986&p=528464&viewfull=1#post528464)

What else do you want from me? I'm sorry if these appear to be empty words - you're not unjustified in feeling that way given how many times a staff member has made a thread or post like this, only to slip back into the status quo. I can't do anything other than say that I think this time it's for real. Myself, p0lar, Korn, and Snaf have all agreed that we need a debate section and are trying to get it going. We just need to get together and make it happen.


seems like older members get away with sarcasm and troll posts alot more than other members do. you know who you are.

I want to fall back on "they know what they're doing", but increasingly they haven't been. Bod and Paladin in particular, you two have been at each others throats for at least a few months now. It needs to stop. Ignore each other if you need to.

CN has always been sarcastic but I've rarely had a problem with it because I hoped that people could deal with it and I didn't want to discourage something I found genuinely funny. It seems that the time for tolerating that kind of thing when arguments get heated up is over though, seeing as how we don't have the ability to deal with it reasonably. Definitely one component of the debate section - if it materializes - will have to be the ability to remove people who consistently display inability to be constructive participants.


But as a 'mod' you are held to a higher standard.

Exactly. Well, at least the theory behind it. There shouldn't be a problem with staff members getting involved in debates, and as Bod said unless they're abusing their power there shouldn't be a problem...

But sometimes they are also taking part in name-calling, making 5-second posts with zero substance supporting whatever message they have (however valid it may be), declaring other users idiots, and so forth. Site staff SHOULD be held to a higher standard to that extent. Never mind the "old members" - if the mod team can't carry itself with dignity we cannot reasonably expect other people to. We should have to be decent, upstanding members when the thread calls for it.


*Timo for mod 2010*

I'm all for it.

[annihilation]

Just saying, being a mod doesn't just mean you can lock threads and delete posts. You are here to set an example.

Mods are here to make sure the forum doesn't get cluttered with spam and shit posts. Not to be a role model.
However that doesn't mean mods should go around and be the shittiest poster they could possibly be.

[flibitijibibo]

What annihilation said. Two things I find weird about the expectations of staff members:
1. To get mod, they would probably have to be an outstanding member in the first place.
2. Why should there be any difference between staff/members in the first place? Is it unreasonable to expect every member of a forum to post to the best of their ability, regardless of status? All of this nagging of the mods to be extra good implies that the members themselves don't have to give a shit. Why put effort into posts when the mods are supposed to be the only role models, right?

Just wondering.

Edit: Yay debate subforum! About time, eh?

[Dwood]

If that were the case, jcap would have had to infract himself. I haven't seen him around lately so maybe he isn't so bad any more.

[annihilation]

If that were the case, jcap would have had to infract himself. I haven't seen him around lately so maybe he isn't so bad any more.

Except Jcap is an admin......
He doesn't have to show the same ettiquette as a moderator.

[teh lag]

What annihilation said. Two things I find weird about the expectations of staff members:
1. To get mod, they would probably have to be an outstanding member in the first place.
2. Why should there be any difference between staff/members in the first place? Is it unreasonable to expect every member of a forum to post to the best of their ability, regardless of status? All of this nagging of the mods to be extra good implies that the members themselves don't have to give a shit. Why put effort into posts when the mods are supposed to be the only role models, right?

Just wondering.

Edit: Yay debate subforum! About time, eh?

Ideally everyone acts top-notch. I'm not saying "yeah non-mods go crazy", I'm saying things need to start with the mod team.

[Roostervier]

it's completely asinine to believe that all members will post to the best of their ability. ignoring the fact that very few would or do, the perception of "best of their ability" is completely different among all people. pretty hard to judge what is purely subjective. in other words, some people will always post better than others, so don't hold everyone to some ridiculous and idealistic standard that we're all supposed to follow to be the perfect community member. getting on the internet, for me, isn't about rigidity or being nice, professional, or any of that. i get on to have fun. sometimes having fun means getting out of line. mods are there to keep getting out of line to a minimum, and it's nice (to an extent) to know when i've crossed a line that shouldn't have been crossed. mods are expected to post at a higher standard simply because they've been entrusted with the power to punish those who they think have posted shit. if they post shit themselves, what would make them more fit to mod than any other member?

[Bodzilla]

But as a 'mod' you are held to a higher standard.
That being said, how many other members on this forum have reported themselves to receive an infraction for stepping out of line?

i've read every report done and yes i have in-directly infracted myself for stepping over the line.

[teh lag]

Which brings me to Good_Apollo's post. For those unaware, he and the staff have had a number of pretty lengthy fights over fairness - or our lack thereof. I feel absurd saying "things need to start changing with the mod team" after having banned him with Snaf, and after having stood by while he pretty much got railroaded (I've used that phrase in at least 4 convos now) into detention for reasons which still don't seem quite right to me. But here I am, saying the mod team needs to improve. We do. We need to at least have the ability to know when we can't (for reasons valid or not) deal with someone. I would rather us remove sources of drama than play around with them like we think they'll turn out differently than they have so many times before.

Even better would be if we were "fair". He said that this notion we (claim to) operate on that we give leniency to people based on whether or not they make up for their faults is a contrivance so we can play favorites with our friends. I don't think it's a contrivance though. I also believe that, while we're nowhere near ideal and are actually pretty pathetic at times, we're not so bad and can muster up some degree of fairness when one of us wants to, at least. And I think it's a bit more often than that. I say I try to do that - even if I don't as much as I should. And then, what - does the long-time member who has consistently proven they've got a few uses (even this part is subjective...) deserve all the same penalties as a newbie? Or someone who's had problems with us in the past? I don't see a problem with giving people slack when we have good reason to do so, if it *is* indeed a good reason (subjective again).

Or maybe I'm just trying to jerk off the other staff members and give us all a collective feeling that we're doing something when we, in fact, do nothing. If that's what you think though, and you really believe that we're hopeless, then I'm not sure. Or this could all be me jerking myself off, trying to wrangle with my horribly twisted logic that I have somehow convinced myself is valid so I can continue coddling useless members while the true gems sit unattended.

[flibitijibibo]

it's completely asinine to believe that all members will post to the best of their ability. ignoring the fact that very few would or do, the perception of "best of their ability" is completely different among all people. pretty hard to judge what is purely subjective. in other words, some people will always post better than others, so don't hold everyone to some ridiculous and idealistic standard that we're all supposed to follow to be the perfect community member. getting on the internet, for me, isn't about rigidity or being nice, professional, or any of that. i get on to have fun. sometimes having fun means getting out of line. mods are there to keep getting out of line to a minimum, and it's nice (to an extent) to know when i've crossed a line that shouldn't have been crossed. mods are expected to post at a higher standard simply because they've been entrusted with the power to punish those who they think have posted shit. if they post shit themselves, what would make them more fit to mod than any other member?

You're right, I worded that pretty shittily. Yes, the best of one's ability is relative, not an absolute. This is what (ideally?) separates staff from members.

And yes, I suppose you could argue that nobody is going to line edit all of their posts, which is reasonable. Consider this a footnote: When I say "post to the best of your ability," I mean "don't fulfill the John Gabriel GIFT (http://dooky.net/pub/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory.jpg)."

Edit for lag: If it makes you feel better, Apollo would have sounded like this either way:
"I HATE YOU GUYS. FUCKING CLIQUES. CAN I CHILL WITH YOU GUYS PLEASE? STUPID INTERNET ARGUMENTS, STOP ARGUING WITH ME OR I'LL STOP ARGUING."

Also, I assume you're discussing this request for change with the staff? The post kinda sounds like you're saying all of this for the first time...

[Dwood]

Teh lag's getting all philosophical. Dwood for mod 2010.

[paladin]

Teh lag's getting all philosophical.

But he's 100% right.


That being said, how many other members on this forum have reported themselves to receive an infraction for stepping out of line?

i've read every report done and yes i have in-directly infracted myself for stepping over the line.

not everyone can give infractions, let alone give themselves one.

[Rob Oplawar]

Unrelated, but great move on the new subforum.

[SnaFuBAR]

Here's my stance. Posting to the "best of one's ability" is a realistic expectation of the more mature forumers. Everyone else, so long as they're making an honest attempt at intelligible discussion, ok. That's a big difference from making yourself a problem. The people that continually and blatantly make themselves a problem for myself, the rest of the staff, and other forum users is what I'm looking out for.

One thing I will be suggesting is the ability to revoke a member's ability to access this sub forum.

[paladin]

One thing I will be suggesting is the ability to revoke a member's ability to access this sub forum.

Wasn't that originally suggested back when the community was discussing the creation of this?

[Timo]

That being said, how many other members on this forum have reported themselves to receive an infraction for stepping out of line?

i've read every report done and yes i have in-directly infracted myself for stepping over the line.

You should be aware of the rules of the forum and be able to keep your cool.


I guess consistency within the mod team would be nice. Everyone has different ways of handling certain situations, but slowly letting one get worse and worse to the point you can't really infract anyone because you're too late is silly.

[Kornman00]

Yes, and it was brought up in the internal talks. However, aside from banning people, us green-horns can't actually change the permissions group of a user. I don't think this should change, there is usually at least one of the red-baron admins around whom we can shoot a request to. At least then there is a sort of checks-and-balance going on (unless the admin just blindly does it, but hey)

[Bodzilla]

You should be aware of the rules of the forum and be able to keep your cool.


I guess consistency within the mod team would be nice. Everyone has different ways of handling certain situations, but slowly letting one get worse and worse to the point you can't really infract anyone because you're too late is silly.
I prefer a hands off approach, i just kinda roll with the members posting and playing up but when the occasion calls for it i have stepped in and given verbal warnings to get things back on track, locked threads ect.

While i'm not perfect i prefer the idea that if no one knows i'm doing anything, then i'm doing a good job.
When i've actually used my mod powers how many people have taken offence at the actions of taken? (except for freelancer, but that was rookie shit that we sorted out)

i'm not infallible and yes im more then happy to be wrong and called out on it, but i dont want to be a soulless transparent pane of glass that just sits there... watching...

[paladin]

I prefer a hands off approach, i just kinda roll with the members posting and playing up but when the occasion calls for it i have stepped in and given verbal warnings to get things back on track, locked threads ect.



So your the cool dad, just wanna be 'friends' with the kids.

[SnaFuBAR]

does that make you the cool kid trying to be like "no fuck you, dad!"?

[paladin]

Since, I grew up without a dad no. But you can say that if you want, idc.

[flibitijibibo]

Explains the lack of bruising with an attitude like that.

Bod's take is simply being another member, occasionally having to play the bad guy with the ability to lock bad threads/shit like that. Makes sense to me. :shrug:

[DarkHalo003]

Since I haven't been a part of the debate over debate topic, I thought I might as well relay my take on this whole situation. The moderators, as I've seen, have been doing their job as of late. I report posts I find lacking couth and are generally not productive. Soon after, the proper actions are taken and justice is served. However, there is a type of hit-and-run issue that reappears from time to time that I feel needs to be addressed. Forum attacks between members are a main issue I keep seeing recurring, where people result to insults and stand-alone arguments amongst the sea of posts in the normal thread. It's only those two people going at it about each other's own posts completely unrelated to the topic at hand and generally not contributing to the thread in a constructive matter. Next to it, I see a lot of rage posting going on that has the same effect. Someone may not only just be acting out of line, but they also aren't contributing to the topic either in a suitable manner. These are just examples of what I am seeing that don't normally ask for being reported, but should be looked into.

Before the hypocrite police waltzes in and calls me out, I've generally been a part of those examples at certain times.

[Kornman00]

When it comes to modacity, you can't teach an old dog any tricks.

[paladin]

When it comes to modacity, you can't teach an old dog any tricks.

Korn, im pretty sure that this picture sums uo modacity.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/S_5IHGcf5II/AAAAAAABSjk/9PsNThMctCM/s1600/Haters_Gonna_Hate_03.jpg