ME all jacked up again; smelliest possible shit hitting biggest possible fan

[rossmum]

Here we discuss possible solutions to the problem of Israel and their neighbours perpetually provoking one another, outside of the wonderful but impossible "learn to fucking share and respect each others' differences, like most people learn by age five" one. I'll start.

I vote that various nations deploy troops to the most contentious areas as a barrier through which Hamas and/or the IDF and/or any third party must first pass before attacking each other. Obviously the ramifications of any one of those attacking another nation's peacekeeping force would bring a global shitstorm down upon them, thus being a pretty effective deterrent not only to Hamas, who need all the backing they can get, but also to Israel, who would have to be absolutely fucking retarded to piss off the few countries willing to support them by supplying military equipment.

It's not flawless, but anything is better than the UN sitting their with their dicks in their hands while misguided people blow each other up over land they each have a legitimate claim to.

[Limited]

I'm tired of their bullshit and their bullshit tactics. Attacking a ship that was actually in international waters? Wtf?

[rossmum]

For all the condemnation Israel gets (and quite often they deserve it), there are just as many people who wander into crowds of Israeli civilians and blow themselves up who are either glossed over or regarded as heroes. The whole place is one gigantic shitfight, both sides are as bad as each other, and the Israeli and Palestinian civilians are the ones suffering for it. The only way I can see things being stabilised without taking sides (which would be pretty shitty, since both sides are in the wrong) is deploying a barrier force to deter this kind of bullshit.

[CN3089]

Not only is the Israeli government evil, they're also all morons


How could they possibly think attacking a Turkish-flagged ship in international waters was a good idea :ugh:


I vote that various nations deploy troops to the most contentious areas as a barrier through which Hamas and/or the IDF and/or any third party must first pass before attacking each other.

Awesome idea, too bad it's 50 years old :canadasmug:

[rossmum]

Not only is the Israeli government evil, they're also all morons


How could they possibly think attacking a Turkish-flagged ship in international waters was a good idea :ugh:
They seem to think that nobody's going to touch them since the US has traditionally backed them. Should be interesting to see how things pan out when the US inevitably gets sick of putting up with their aggression and tells them to unfuck themselves.

[sleepy1212]

Why not just keep up with the plan - strip Israel defensively so Iran can fire their nukes just like they promised? Then Israel will be wiped off the map and Hamas can move on to harassing bigger, 1st world, more westerly countries :allears:

oh and IDF attack:

http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/may/31/israel-troops-gaza-ships

They currently have agreements which allow them to search these ships, the reason? More than ten-thousand rockets are fired at them annually, all of them smuggled into the region.

If you have a problem with how Israel treats it's neighbors you need to l2history - try going back a few thousand years. As long as there are Jews in the region there will be problems between them and their Arab neighbors. It's either wipe Israel off the map or wipe the rest of the middle east off the map. Wanna know why the Arabs hate the west - UN 1948 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel).

It's ridiculous to hold being assholes against Israel. It's so congruent with modern thinking: some psychotic nation decides to kill a few thousand of your countrymen and you're the dick if you stand up for yourself. It's okay for Hamas, Jihadi, and piss-ant communist nations to kill you, but don't you dare kill them back (9-11 much?). In reality we should have Israel control the region when they had it in 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War)

/rambling

[rossmum]

It's okay to defend yourself. Simply taking the easiest method of doing so when it causes ridiculous amounts of civilian casualties and gives the enemy a constant supply of excellent propaganda is not, on any level. Not only is it a shitty thing to do but it more or less guarantees future generations of crazies intent on blowing up your own civilians because shit, when they heard reports of how many you'd killed by collateral, they decided all that talk about you being evil was true.

What is needed is for everyone else to tell both sides that no, this is not alright, and no, this shit does not fly with the international community. If you can't unfuck yourselves and learn to get along even on the most basic level, we'll come down there and we'll fucking make you get along. Israel should not be in control of the ME any more than the neighbouring Arab nations should.

[sdavis117]

It's ridiculous to hold being assholes against Israel. It's so congruent with modern thinking: some psychotic nation decides to kill a few thousand of your countrymen and you're the dick if you stand up for yourself. It's okay for Hamas, Jihadi, and piss-ant communist nations to kill you, but don't you dare kill them back (9-11 much?). In reality we should have Israel control the region when they had it in 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War)

/rambling
Two wrongs don't make a right. What, we can't criticize Israel when it does something shit-tastically stupid? Hamas isn't the only one killing innocents in this war, Israel has it's fair hand in that department too. I mean both sides are selfish. Fuck it, the Israeli's are the more stuborn of the two when it comes to diplomacy. The Palistineans have offered peace agreements with Israel, but Israel turns them down because they feel that they can win without giving anything up if they still have America behind them not questioning Israel's actions.

And a propaganda Youtube Page with some very questionable video doesn't clear Israel from this.

[paladin]

Im with Palestine, whats Israel?

[rossmum]

a state established by the british (who were in charge of palestine) in 1948 as a home for all the displaced jewish refugees after ww2 :hist101:

[sdavis117]

Im with Palestine, whats Israel?
Palestine recognized Israel back in 1988, and even offered a two-state solution (which Israel, backed by the US, denied, even though the rest of the world supported it). This myth that Palestine does not recognize the existence and legitimacy of Israel, is, well, a myth forwarded by many Neoconservatives.

[CN3089]

I'm sorry what? Are you speaking of The Zionist Entity? :v:

[Cojafoji]

Irradiate that section of the middle east with cobolt60, declare it a world heritage site, done.

No but seriously, it's really time for Israel to give up with their BS policies. It's getting old because the government is saying one thing, the IDF is saying another, and the settlers are barreling ahead fuck all building new settlements. They've literally turned the strip into a ghetto, and it's got to stop. Children in Gaza are witnessing the worst possible things you could ever imagine, and I'm not sure how Israel doesn't recognize that they're only breeding resentment in these children, and turning them into tomorrow's enemy.

[Bodzilla]

Just nuke israel from orbit.

I mean jesus christ they are worse then fucking china when it comes to Lieing to your face and then doing everything they can to provoke the Palestinians.
They're a horrible nation that should not have control of their own military, because as you can see from time and time again they abuse it.

[paladin]

We need Israel to keep Iran distracted. How else are we gonna imply economic sanctions on them.

[rossmum]

Just nuke israel from orbit.

I mean jesus christ they are worse then fucking china when it comes to Lieing to your face and then doing everything they can to provoke the Palestinians.
They're a horrible nation that should not have control of their own military, because as you can see from time and time again they abuse it.
They're also doing this because several times their immediate neighbours have ganged up and tried to literally annihilate them. It's hardly an excuse but it's also unsurprising they've really stopped giving a fuck and just attacking anything they even vaguely suspect of being hostile.

"Nuke them from orbit" isn't something you should be saying about anyone, even North Korea. I'd much rather try and unfuck the situation with as little loss of life as possible than murder a few million people, especially when the fallout starts to drift over every other country in the region.

[neuro]

yay, go israel

[Bodzilla]

you took me seriously on that ross? :ugh:

just cut off support, move in the tanks and hold the ground.

[sleepy1212]

Palestine recognized Israel back in 1988, and even offered a two-state solution (which Israel, backed by the US, denied, even though the rest of the world supported it). This myth that Palestine does not recognize the existence and legitimacy of Israel, is, well, a myth forwarded by many Neoconservatives.

What they agree to on paper means nothing. Israel knows this, despite the rest of the world wanting to believe it.

[Bodzilla]

and i suppose bombing ambulances, fireing on unarmed civilians that are in the company of UN peace keepers and Journalists, Human shields.... Just oversights on israels behalf?

Wake up sleepy.

[rossmum]

On the other side of the coin, in what fucked-up universe is blowing yourself up in a crowded street anything other than despicable?

Both sides are in the wrong on an extreme level. Trying to argue one is wronger than the other is the exact manner of bullshit which perpetuates the cycle of violence and it helps nobody.

[sdavis117]

What they agree to on paper means nothing. Israel knows this, despite the rest of the world wanting to believe it.

One problem, Israel has never tried diplomacy. They have never tried to actually talk to Palestine. They have been offered a sincere open hand by Palestine many times, and each time they swat it away. That agreement could have worked. I mean it would have been better to their image amongst Palestinians then the shit they are doing now, and all of these suicide bombers are the result of the impressions that Palestinian Youths have on Israel (whether legit impressions or bullshit that some fundies make up).

[Dwood]

It's not palestine they can't talk to, it's the terrorist groups that are funded by palestine. Hamas, al qaeda etc. don't care what papers they sign, they're still going to try and attack israel no matter what. And the only way to stop the fighting is to either move all of palestine out of that section of the world, or move all israel civilians out of that part, which just won't happen. Either way, I personally side with israel, as the palestine government is whiny and pathetic, after they send missiles out into israel, they instantly whine to the u.n. the second they get a retaliation. Side with palestine all you want, israel isn't strapping people with bombs and running into public places.

[Cojafoji]

If you're going to make the statements about hamas, make sure you differentiate between the Hamas political movement, and the Hamas terrorist movement. Hamas != Hamas.

[Bodzilla]

he doesnt understand a thing he's talking about Coja, It's just regurgitated bullshit you hear on Rightwing nut job media. throwing out valid shit like that will just confuse the poor beast.

[sleepy1212]

One problem, Israel has never tried diplomacy. They have never tried to actually talk to Palestine. They have been offered a sincere open hand by Palestine many times, and each time they swat it away

(in bold) doubtful, Israel has known this for a long time...their word means nothing. Palestine agrees to peace only to spite Israel in front of the UN gaining political support from misguided westerners (that they still want to kill btw). Then, they turn around and fund Hamas, pay for the weapons, and do nothing to stop their own people from killing Israeli civilians. Would you make a peace agreement that only ties your hands with them?


If you're going to make the statements about hamas, make sure you differentiate between the Hamas political movement, and the Hamas terrorist movement. Hamas != Hamas.

They're more like branches of the same entity

Hamas Charter (http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm)



The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

http://middleeast.about.com/od/palestinepalestinians/a/me080106b_3.htm

[rossmum]

I'm so glad you all read my post and took it into consideration, guys!

:lolugh:

[DarkHalo003]

The problem with the entire deal is that everyone wants land. Well Israel doesn't want to hand it to them because they fear that the Palestinians will attack them AGAIN and it annoys them. Palestine countries are being stupid because THEY WILL attack again if they get the opportunity because logic hasn't run through they skulls that ATTACKING ISRAEL WILL JUST GET YOU KILLED. I'm not siding with Israel on attacking the ship and I actually think it's stupid to blast it away like that, but at the same time I get why they do it and why they're so damn sensitive about it (form both sides anyways). If you had the same robber trying to rob you over and over again, making you sick of the bullshit, and you saw the robber in public, wouldn't you turn him into the authorities (being less drastic here obviously)?

As far as a solution, I agree in concordance to your idea Ross, but at the same time they should all make it a UN (the sake of neutrality) area owned by the UN (or someone) and protected by Western-influenced military (because they aren't blind with rage about the land). It's probably too far of a long-shot, but at least it's some idea that's probably being tossed around.

[=sw=warlord]

Or get the UN do what the UN usually doe's and sanction the fuck out of both of them until they realise fucking about like children in a school yard will not get them anywhere in the international community.
Also, this is even more fucking retarded. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)

Israel is widely believed to possess weapons of mass destruction, and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Israel is not a signatory to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC)
:suicide:

[TeeKup]

^ That's just cute.

The entire region is a powder keg just waiting to be ignited. :|

[Cojafoji]

Newsflash: Anything the UN does, doesn't work.

[paladin]

Ahhh, I thought it was common knowledge that Israel had a nuclear arsenal

[CN3089]

Newsflash: Anything the UN does, doesn't work.

How is it possible that people can still think this?

[sleepy1212]

How is it possible that people can still think this?

Maybe because it's true. The UN exists purely to stroke their own egos and power grab. They punish those that don't agree with them and reward each other. Their environmental policies only serve to hurt competitors and strip sovereignty while ignoring some of the worst offenders. And their policies in the middle-east are completely ignored except for maybe the Saudis and only because they have skin in the game. Their nuclear inspections are a joke, their sanctions are laughable, and UN "peacekeeping" forces are just fodder until a real army shows up. The only thing they can do right is coax, bribe, and extort nations into saluting their flag. That's not peace, that's domination.

[CN3089]

You're exceedingly paranoid and woefully ignorant. The United Nations is the world's best chance for a brighter future, no matter how much America wants to deny it and make it toothless.

[DarkHalo003]

You're exceedingly paranoid and woefully ignorant. The United Nations is the world's best chance for a brighter future, no matter how much America wants to deny it and make it toothless.
I agree that it has potential, but too much politics. I know politics is necessary, but it doesn't do enough. In the end it falters due to people not understanding sheer logic with destructive forces and it just doesn't cut it anymore (if it ever did). Sometimes you got to fall and kick dirt in someone's face so they realize what they're doing is wrong. The U.N. should bring people back to down-to-earth, not beleaguer them with sanctions that affect a population that the main gov't could care less about (Iran and NK). Not to mention people can't maintain a zero-tolerance of temptation with under-the-table works for their lives since we live in an indebted world. Yay for World Economies! Anyways, I do agree that if there ever is a chance at some sort of world peace (outside of beyond-our-control forces), the U.N. is the better way to diplomatically solve issues. Now militarily, I'll leave that to the countries themselves; Israel and the Palestinian countries brought this upon themselves.

[Warsaw]

You're exceedingly paranoid and woefully ignorant. The United Nations is the world's best chance for a brighter future, no matter how much America sleepy and Coja want to deny it and make it toothless.

ftfy.

I believe the UN is a vital stepping stone in humanity's eventual journey off of this rock, which means it's also a vital stepping stone to getting everyone on the same page. That said, sanctioning Israel and Palestine probably wouldn't get much of a reaction because they are both located in Israel or its back yard and because Israel seems to emit a vibe saying "I don't give two shits what you think." Also, US support for Israel is waning anyways, at least according to all the White House reactions I've been reading about.

[Dwood]

Obama likes palestine more, for whatever the reason and has shown in the past that. any thing israel does in his eyes is going to be wrong, for the next four years anyway.

[CN3089]

Obama likes palestine more, for whatever the reason and has shown in the past that. any thing israel does in his eyes is going to be wrong, for the next four years anyway.


You've got it backwards.

[sdavis117]

Obama likes palestine more, for whatever the reason and has shown in the past that. any thing israel does in his eyes is going to be wrong, for the next four years anyway.

With the Republicans in charge America is Israel's cheap whore.

With the Democrats in charge America is Israel's cheap whore that talks dirty.

[Sel]

Here we discuss possible solutions to the problem of Israel and their neighbours perpetually provoking one another, outside of the wonderful but impossible "learn to fucking share and respect each others' differences, like most people learn by age five" one. I'll start.


hahaahahah

You're the best.

[sleepy1212]

You're exceedingly paranoid and woefully ignorant not a liberal. The United Nations is the world's best chance for a brighter future

:allears:



no matter how much America wants to deny it and make it toothless.

I wonder why....

"everyone get rid of their nukes, especially you America, but not you Pakistan, or Iran, or North Korea...you're cool"

"Chinese smog is great - I love it long time but WTF AMERICA kyotokyotokyoto!"

"Goddamn Americans fuck 'em we hate 'em oh shhh they're coming...hey buuuuuuddy can we have some money, supplies, and troops?"

"genocidal maniacs in Africa, HURRY UP AMERICA!"
"genocidal maniacs in SE Europe, LET'S GO AMERICA!"
"genocidal maniacs in Afghanistan, AMERICA .... GTFO!"

[CN3089]

:allears:




I wonder why....

"everyone get rid of their nukes, especially you America, but not you Pakistan, or Iran, or North Korea...you're cool"

"Chinese smog is great - I love it long time but WTF AMERICA kyotokyotokyoto!"

"Goddamn Americans fuck 'em we hate 'em oh shhh they're coming...hey buuuuuuddy can we have some money, supplies, and troops?"

"genocidal maniacs in Africa, HURRY UP AMERICA!"
"genocidal maniacs in SE Europe, LET'S GO AMERICA!"
"genocidal maniacs in Afghanistan, AMERICA .... GTFO!"

Absolutely everything about this post is wrong. It's to the point where I honestly doubt you live in the same universe as the rest of the world.

[sdavis117]

CN#### may be a little over the top, but he is right, that is nowhere close to an accurate depiction of the UN. The UN has been one of the strongest forces in the prevention of Rouge Nations coming into possession of nuclear weapons. They have also been on China's case to clean up (pun intended) their act (did you know Al Gore spent quite a lot of time in China trying to push for clean alternatives to fuel for them). Also, since when have there been genocidal maniacs in Afghanistan. Point to one person in Afghanistan who committed genocide.

[Syuusuke]

Hint: Osama isn't the answer and neither are his groups.

[=sw=warlord]

Hint: Osama isn't the answer and neither are his groups.
Nor are they the cause of this.
E: thought he said obama...could of sworn it...

[sleepy1212]

hmm, so there are no radicals who threaten to wipe all the unbelievers from the face of the earth starting with the jews? and they've never tried it in the past either? what about when they tried to kill all the hindus in Pakistan? or Armenia?

also, if there is no reason to question the validity of the United Nations then why does this thread exist? If America can single-handedly throw off UN intervention in Isreal then just how is it that they're so "effective"? They're not. Plain and simple.

A simple google search turns up a litany of failures and half measures on their part. Most of them owing to the completely undemocratic way the Security Council is set up. Further, because it is more like a clubhouse than an international forum it tends to ignore the transgressions of it's members. At best, during a search (UN is effective) I find essentially this: "it may not be that effective but it's all we have". The only alternative is to turn it into a full-scale governing body and nobody wants that, well ...some of you might.

Also:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/sleepy1212/theUNis.jpg

[sdavis117]

Most of them owing to the completely undemocratic way the Security Council is set up.
Yeah, because the way the security council is setup gives America the power to automatically veto anything we don't want to go through, something we have unjustly done for a number of resolutions that would have done some good. You want to know the main reason the UN doesn't work all the time? It's because America shoots it in the foot every chance we get.

[rossmum]

i, too, base my entire argument off of google autocomplete

I think the UN has itself to blame for the image people have of it, but it certainly does get shit done. I'd like to see the kinds of ridiculously large peacekeeping/cleanup operations it's organised previously happen without it. I might not exactly hold a high opinion of the UN and I wish they'd actually do more and do it faster, but it's a step in the right direction and they do actually play an important role.

[sleepy1212]

Yeah, because the way the security council is setup gives America the power to automatically veto anything we don't want to go through, something we have unjustly done for a number of resolutions that would have done some good. You want to know the main reason the UN doesn't work all the time? It's because America shoots it in the foot every chance we get.

Then how did this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme) happen?


i, too, base my entire argument off of google autocomplete

please ross, why do you think that was at the end of the post and not the entire post?


I think the UN has itself to blame for the image people have of it YES, but it certainly does get shit done NO. I'd like to see the kinds of ridiculously large peacekeeping/cleanup operations it's organised previously happen without it If you mean nations doing it themselves, then of course. I might not exactly hold a high opinion of the UN and I wish they'd actually do more and do it faster, but it's a step in the right direction and they do actually play an important role not so sure about that.

They really need to reform it to a pure democracy instead of a revised League of Nations with a bunch of sub-members. Their involvement in Israel is a perfect case for this. Of course in that state they could just as easily do harm as they could do good and with any political forum things can go bad quickly, hostile nations getting majority is a good example - which, incidentally...is also part of the problem with Israel, since it seems many of the UN members are highly hostile towards Israel America's track record is no surprise.

[Cojafoji]

How is it possible that people can still think this?
Rwanda.

[CN3089]

Rwanda.

So... you would rather the civil war gone on without UN intervention, almost certainly resulting in far more deaths? :downs:

[Cojafoji]

Are... Are you joking?

[CN3089]

Are... Are you joking?

No?


I did assume you were talking about the civil war in the 1990s, and UNAMIR's response to it, was I mistaken?

[Dwood]

Watch the movie hotel rwanda

[Cojafoji]

Watch the movie hotel rwanda
This. Demonstrates the UN's effectiveness pretty well.

[rossmum]

Movies are definitely a reliable source of factual information!

[Dwood]

Movies are definitely a reliable source of factual information!

It portrayed the U.N. rather well.

[Warsaw]

The only alternative is to turn it into a full-scale governing body and nobody wants that, well ...some of you might.
No complaints here for that idea. Nationalism is dumb.

[sleepy1212]

No complaints here for that idea. Nationalism is dumb.

Yea, because there isn't anything wrong with one-world government :gonk:

[CN3089]

Yea, because there isn't anything wrong with one-world government :gonk:

There really isn't! Not intrinsically, anyway.

[paladin]

Yea, because there isn't anything wrong with one-world government :gonk:

EU :gonk:

[rossmum]

The EU actually works quite well. They have their problems, sure, but it's nice being able to cruise around Europe without being stopped every hour or so at a border crossing. Besides which, the EU is hadly one-continent government; each country still has its own government and each of those can still do whatever the fuck it likes (the UK not accepting the Euro is a good example, and I'm glad they didn't).

In fact, the biggest issue I can think of with regards to the EU is the financial fuckfight caused by Greece - and that wasn't even their fault.

[paladin]

Single currency with multi-nation economic policies :phonegonk:

[rossmum]

At the end of the day, each of those nations had the option to keep their own currency. The UK did and they're not doing all that well themselves.

[Dwood]

At the end of the day, each of those nations had the option to keep their own currency. The UK did and they're not doing all that well themselves.

No one did too hot in the end.

[rossmum]

Exactly, you can't really blame the EU

[paladin]

I believe the UK was one of the biggest pushers of the Euro

[rossmum]

Well they certainly don't use it

[=sw=warlord]

Yea, because there isn't anything wrong with one-world government :gonk:

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934

Might have it's issues but the sooner we work under a union and not several sovereign states the better.
Isn't that after all, how the United States of America works?
several states with a unifying government.


I believe the UK was one of the biggest pushers of the Euro
Yeah no...
The people over here absolutely hate the idea of the Euro.

Some 71% of people are against entering the European single currency, with only 23% in favour, according to the ICM survey for BBC Radio 4's the World At One. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/02/euro-public-support-poll-sterling)

[sleepy1212]

Might have it's issues but the sooner we work under a union and not several sovereign states the better.
Isn't that after all, how the United States of America works?
several states with a unifying government.

Not anymore. It's all about the Feds now. But since you brought it up, the plan was to let the states rule themselves and the federal government would just step in every now and then if there was a problem. Now, however, the federal government over-steps that boundary by essentially lording over the states instead of the other way around. That is exactly what would happen if you give the UN governmental power. Eventually they would become masters of the nations instead of the servants.

[Cojafoji]

Actually, it all boils down to tax law and extortion. Many of the state and local governments are subsidized by the federal government, so if you do something they don't like, they can pull funding on anything from educational subsidies, to road and highway maintenance subsidies.

It was basically the Necessary & Proper Clause, and the Commerce Clause that fucked us.

[DarkHalo003]

Single currency with multi-nation economic policies :phonegonk:
My mind metaphorically just exploded trying to understand what would happen if this was on a global scale. :dramabomb:

[paladin]

Obamanationworld

[DarkHalo003]

The U.S. has always remained somewhat supportive of Israel and seeing as how most of the other countries in that region are rarely considered stable, the U.S. really has reason to say otherwise when caught up in the debate. As Israel currently stands, the U.S. doesn't have a reason to disown Israel's support. Having them as an ally is very beneficial as well (basically having one of the most powerful military's on earth is usually a good thing), but at the same time it's obvious to see that it's taking it's toll with Israel's recent escapades.

History Lesson: Israel is doing this not because it's imperialistic, but because they believe that if they don't, Palestinian opposition will attack again like they always do. If you don't believe me, look up Israel's history from it's founding day in the 40's to the 80's. In a nutshell, it's Palestinian opposition constantly badgering and failing to cooperate with Israel, while Israel beats them into submission. This happens at least twice to my knowledge. At least the first time, Israel gives back their land. However, as the Palestinian opposition continues more attack, Israel begins to basically say that they won't deal with their crap and won't give back their land. At this point, the U.N. and U.S. walk in to mediate, however, are unsuccessful because neither promised to lend Israel military aid and ensured homeland protection. What if the U.S. had guaranteed protection? For all we know, the crap with hate towards the West could have never existed (the decision not to protect Israel militarily effects other crap too) and the problems today may have ceased as well. But that's all speculation and insight. For all we know, we could have blown the world up three times. Anyways, the problem is that these countries are on religious tirades over land (pretty sure land as an obsession is against what God in both religions frowns upon) and we keep thinking it's the terrorists in the Middle East fault. So how do we fix this? Well obviously we can't send in troops now (that would heat the damn world up) and sanctions do absolutely nothing to the sociopaths controlling the countries, so basically here's all I can say: STAY OUT OF THE CONFLICT.

[rossmum]

Yes let's let them continue killing each other off in dumb and provocative ways until Israel cracks out the nukes or Iran decides to do something similar rather than put an international force between Israel and everyone else, forcing them to stop attacking each other

[DarkHalo003]

Yes let's let them continue killing each other off in dumb and provocative ways until Israel cracks out the nukes or Iran decides to do something similar rather than put an international force between Israel and everyone else, forcing them to stop attacking each other
Well obviously we should do something in that case. But this is what everyone feared back in those days as well. The Suez Crisis was one of them. On top of that, Israel has no need to use Nuclear Arms to maintain control over their neighbors.

I do agree with Iran's situation though. In all honesty, I think their leadership should be taken out and something needs to be done. If it's anyone I'm worried about having Nukes, it's them and the rebels in Pakistan.

The problem with your idea of sending in international troops is the problems presented later down the road. More Western presence in a region who wants to massacre our very existence is not something we need to keep pressing on. You can yell and shoot about how they're psychotic and wrong, but it won't matter what we keep saying to them. The region is basically anti-Western and an insurgence of Western Countries into their land will make things A LOT WORSE. I never said to not intervene, but military attacks will solve nothing in the long-run.

[rossmum]

I'm not talking purely Western, I'm talking a variety of nations - as long as they can be trusted to remain neutral, they can come along. The goal isn't to occupy a whole country or to actively fight, but to form a cordon of sorts (which Israel does plenty of already) so that neither side can reach the other without having to pass through that cordon (not going to happen). If Hamas attack Israeli settlements with rockets or similar, then a small QRF can be sent in to clean it up, since we know the IDF tends to use a cannon to swat a fly. If the IDF want to go out and do shit, too fucking bad. Either they let everyone else maintain the peace - since they are apparently incapable of doing so themselves without provoking Hamas further - or they find themselves very friendless.

[DarkHalo003]

I'm not talking purely Western, I'm talking a variety of nations - as long as they can be trusted to remain neutral, they can come along. The goal isn't to occupy a whole country or to actively fight, but to form a cordon of sorts (which Israel does plenty of already) so that neither side can reach the other without having to pass through that cordon (not going to happen). If Hamas attack Israeli settlements with rockets or similar, then a small QRF can be sent in to clean it up, since we know the IDF tends to use a cannon to swat a fly. If the IDF want to go out and do shit, too fucking bad. Either they let everyone else maintain the peace - since they are apparently incapable of doing so themselves without provoking Hamas further - or they find themselves very friendless.
The only problem with creating a DMZ-like barrier is because the problem of "invading their holy land" would immediately put anyone else seen as neutral as a enemy to the aggressive nations (not including Israel, who'll probably agree with help). It's difficult in this situation because a lot of things can be put into light that insult the people of these nations and ruin a chance of using neutrality as mediation. Basically, the only effective countries that I can honestly think of that can remotely accomplish what you're saying is Russia, China, and Turkey (initially of course). Not to mention people are more worried about the more unstable forces gaining nuclear materials than the actually fighting itself, thus placing an idea like this a bit less in perspective.

[rossmum]

It's not invading their 'holy land' since the troops would simply be on the same cordon the IDF currently runs, though, and there are plenty of nations who frankly don't give a shit about religion or anything else in the area who could hardly be construed as crusaders. If they're dumb enough to attack international troops just to get through to the Israelis, then they can feel free to wipe themselves out by doing so.