A Debatable Proposal!

[Dwood]

I have found that the following measuring stick for deciding a person's "right" or "left" alignment is currently and utterly useless.

"Fascism on the right, Communism on the Left" means NOTHING that kind of way to rank a politically motivated individual means nothing. I'd rather rank it in the following way: Liberty to the Individual and Power of the state.

Allow the following to demonstrate:

http://lookpic.com/d2/i2/3466/bKR53vpP.gif


The better question we can ask ourselves is where on that bottom line are we? And why?

[rossmum]

Trying to classify people as members of any group has long been pointless. I hold some pretty hard left views, but I hold a fair few hard right as well (to use traditional terms). If you just pick one and agree with it without exception, you're probably an idiot. People with any sense at all deal with political issues on a case-by-case basis.

[paladin]

Point of view is on a per-case basis.

[sleepy1212]

I think people are highly predictable, although not 100% of the time. They don't work good for individuals but become more accurate the larger the population considered.

better chart:

(1,0) extreme right
(0,1) total gov control
(-1,0) extreme left
(0,-1) anarchy

[Dwood]

Point of view is on a per-case basis.

This isn't about an individual's point of view or even about "Grouping" people- It's about the inaccuracy of current measuring sticks for political lean.

Bush Republicans (Patriot Act, etc) would be placed on the left of that chart, as well as those who support the Healthcare Bill that was passed a few months ago. People who want little government would be nearer to the center, and the G20 protesters would be on the right.

You could add an up or down to the chart, as sleepy seemed to be suggesting but it would be more of a cone. Let me demonstrate:

http://lookpic.com/d2/i2/2842/Lg7Ykdi1.gif

So you either have complete chaos (anarchy, with no ruling power) or complete control (Tyranny, with all power concentrated to a group of individuals, free to do what they want)

Also, this isn't about an individual's views but about a measuring stick for governments.

Edit: Why would there be no up and down for pure anarchy? because to do so requires the ability to tell others what to do, which, as you may guess, isn't a part of anarchy. That is, unless everyone magically agreed to do one thing and we all held hands and did it, with each person having the ability (no control to force others to keep working on whatever it is) to leave said project at any time.

[Cojafoji]

Why feel the need to associate yourself with a party that may or may not believe in everything you do. Voting, thinking, and associating on party drawn lines is ludicrously retarded. Partisan politics are merely a ruse in order to polarize people for support. If you round people up with the same general views, it's not hard to bend them to a will that they may or may not believe in, merely because they want to associate with people who are like them, and not with others.

Think for yourself. There is absolutely no need for labels. If someone asks you your political views, and isn't willing to sit down for a lengthy discussion, chances are that they're an uneducated and opinionated prick.

[paladin]

Why feel the need to associate yourself with a party that may or may not believe in everything you do.

Like I said

[Dwood]

You guys are missing the point of this completely. Did you even read what I'm trying to say?

[sleepy1212]

You guys are missing the point of this completely. Did you even read what I'm trying to say?

haven't you ever been to the Debate forum?

I think i get it Dwood, you're saying throw out the party semantics but I don't know if you meant the proverbial "we" or literally us..in this thread.

[Dwood]

haven't you ever been to the Debate forum?

I think i get it Dwood, you're saying throw out the party semantics but I don't know if you meant the proverbial "we" or literally us..in this thread.

When I say we, I mean/meant those who use the "Fascists on the right, commies on the left" kind of deal. Or Humanity's use of it in general. And it's not simply party semantics. It's simply a better measuring stick for measuring political lean or the lean of a government//country than the one I previously stated.

[thehoodedsmack]

Part One: Message to Dwood

This isn't new, so... what's going on in this thread...

The design you're presenting is something I've seen in my Political Science courses, and it is used often for measuring the power and control of states.

But I think we're all confused as to why it's in the debate forum instead of a user blog, when the overall message of the thread is "guys, I think we should..."

Part Two: Revelation of Thread

So now that we understand that Dwood is presenting a common political indicator, we can move onto the real purpose of the thread, which he states in his first post: where is the United States on that line?

In my opinion, it's probably near the center, averaging the different areas of the US's political landscape, some things give citizens a lot of freedom, while others demonstrate high government control. Americans aren't Nazis, but they aren't tree-hugging hippies either. That's just the view of a Canadian, though. What do some actual Americans think?

[sleepy1212]

I think our two parties are pretty much the same and that they merely represent the wishes of corporations and NGO's. This, to me, creates an atmosphere of tyranny. Whether we rank left or right globally I'd say we're somewhat right but headed left swiftly. Internally, each state varies quite a bit and on many issues so i think leftness and rightness are potentially extreme in some but still, on average, middle-of-the-road.

This is pretty interesting and relevant : Freedom Index (http://www.freeexistence.org/freedom.shtml)

(I read their FAQ but I haven't double checked their sources)

[paladin]

Republicans and Democrats in the US are the same. The argue the same point, with different representation.

[DarkHalo003]

People today aren't so much as Republican or Democrat as they are Conservative, Liberal, or Moderate. I'm a mix of Conservative and Moderate, mainly because most of my opinions are in the middle right. However, I don't like massive government, which means I want the Republican party to represent me. The big issue is that moderates are mostly Independent and conservatives/liberals are automatically labeled Republican/Democrat, which is terrible because moderate Republicans/Democrats are insulted greatly when the former does something stupid.

[paladin]

Your right, theres a difference between liberal/democrat and conservative/republican. People who think they are the same are idiots.

[Bodzilla]

if the shoe fits.

and i'd strongly advocate that the libs on this forum do not see it in this black and white business.
we call it how we see it, and quite frankly what we see is disturbing.

[sleepy1212]

what we see is disturbing.

Australians?

[CrAsHOvErRide]

In Germany we just have it like this:

Left
Social

Center
Liberal

Right
National

Obviously the parties are sitting like this in the parliament as well.
http://blog.willamette.edu/dept/wits/llc/german/archives/Sitzverteilung%20im%20Bundestag%20nach%20der%20Wah l%202009.jpg

Obviously just flipped (Die Linke is Left-Winged).

[Mass]

do you guys remember political compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/) it maps on axes of social control and economic regulation, similar to what's going on here...

...as for the United States, it is pretty firmly locked in the middle in my opinion. It's difficult to get things done in American government, and although we are very adamant about our personal freedoms, our military and corporate machinery represents an unprecedented ability to enforce our will... The United States slips economically left every once in a while as the natural tendency of the market to have money stagnate at the top periodically drives opinion leftward and results in irreversibly popular social programs. As the middle class grows back, opinions again head back rightward. However, the degree to which we are authoritarian depends on a separate perception of national security, well-founded or otherwise. The two party system causes a cycle of discontent which leaves us paddling our national kayak in a circle, with us steadying just long enough to pass through the rapids of serious crises. Although some actions of the US are obviously very dubious ethically, the United States compares quite favorably to and remains a more reasonable actor than its predecessors in the game of empire.

[Needles]

I'd say it's in the middle. We're far from being anarchistic, but also really far from being under tyranny, liberal/far left communism/socilism (which are both very different in many ways but I consider both more liberal), and conservative/far right fascism.