Dammit PETA!

[DarkHalo003]

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/lawmakers-vote-to-ban-bullfighting-in-spains-catalonia-region/19569358

Basically, Bullfighting is going to exist no more. It's being stopped because the activists are null of tradition. Dammit PETA, you've crossed the line this time. :maddowns:

[Timo]

It's all well and good to keep to tradition, but it is pretty screwed up.

Pics spoiler'd for the squeamish

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii164/Necrojock/bull1.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii164/Necrojock/bull2.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii164/Necrojock/bull3.jpg


The group was able to collect 180,000 signatures from Catalonia (Although there is ~7 million people there according to wikipedia), so it's not like there's just a few crazy activists that brought this change around.

It's only one region of Spain that it's going to be banned in as well, not the entire country.

[DarkHalo003]

Oh okay. I panicked for a minute. I don't like animal cruelty (so don't think I'm savage), but it's more or less a tradition and history that represents Spain. Removing it would be like removing the Bald Eagle as the national bird of USA because it's endangered and it's nationalizing makes it a target.

[cheezdue]

Good, I never really liked bull fighting anyway.

[Sel]

Fine. By. Me.

[Rob Oplawar]

Yeah, it really is barbaric. It's a distinctive and intriguing part of a beautiful culture, but in my opinion it has no place in modern civilization; I'd like to think we're beyond torturing animals. And I don't want to hear any mincing of words here, it really is torture, tradition or not.

e: To clarify: a healthy society strikes a balance between preserving its culture and embracing progress; the elimination of bullfighting falls into the latter category, imo. It's time to move on.

[paladin]

I wanna see them ban bulldogging and rodeos. HA

[Dwood]

The only people getting tortured are the humans who jump in there.

[Timo]

The only people getting tortured are the humans who jump in there.

You're kidding, right?

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/sanfermin_07_14/s35_24320325.jpg
http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/sanfermin_07_14/s38_24250921.jpg
http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/sanfermin_07_14/s39_24320627.jpg

The people that do the bull runs are morons though.

[paladin]

You do know, its part of the tradition for the bull to be killed..

[neuro]

its also part of the tradition for the bulls to be TORTURED, and bled of about HALF THEIR BLOOD before they enter the ring.

srsly, if they got in the ring and fought a bull that WASNT half-bled-dry, i'd be all FOR bullfighting, because it wouldnt be a complete one-sided fight.
if you can only win a fight against a LITERALLY HALF DEAD opponent, then you're a fucking wanker.
i hate spain anyway, so big fucking toot.

[CrAsHOvErRide]

Don't blame PETA....the majority of the council AND the people wanted it to be abolished.

A long time ago it was a true fight between man and animal. But now the bull is nearly blind and exhausted before even fighting that the fight is very one sided. Give the torrero a black flag and give him a red costume...then I would watch it again :P

EDIT: :3 neuro

[TeeKup]

I love you Neuro.

[Timo]

You do know, its part of the tradition for the bull to be killed..

I'm not a retard, I know the whole point of those fights is to kill the bull.

[DarkHalo003]

I don't like seeing animals (or any living creature for that matter) being tortured. However, it's mainly a symbolic tradition that I think should not be revoked because people think that the bull is captured and sent into a death ring. If anyone thinks that, then they really need to research more about the bulls that go into the fight. Those things are usually (I can't speak for everyone who raises them) treated like Kings and live great lives up until the point where they fight for survival. Hell, if they live and the Matador lives to say so, the bulls can live on an even better life. But just because it looks torturous for the bull only, think about what the matador goes through when he fights it. One screw up either means dishonor or near death. It's not just a bull's fight; the matador is also in the same barrel as well.

What honestly makes this different from conventional hunting with a Crossbow or Shotgun? Yeah, the animal bleeds longer, but don't you honestly think that the animal that gets hit by the shrapnel feels a tremendous amount of pain too? (Don't use the overpopulation argument because that can apply in Bullfighting as well.)

[SnaFuBAR]

read neuro's post, please. And how the fuck is an animal supposed to objectify that it's living like a king? IT'S A FUCKING ANIMAL. DON'T HUMANIZE IT. IT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND, THEREFORE, ARGUMENT INVALID.

[paladin]

Its an animal, torture it all you want. Dont humanize it.

[rossmum]

this is probably a good thing because culture or no it is pretty cruel

but fuck peta, i will not ever become a vegan and dress in synthetic fibres (fire magnets) just because a bunch of lunatics don't understand the basics of how shit rolls in the real world. i like living at the top of the local food chain and compared to any other predator, we're quite humane overall. besides which the sheer scale of monoculture required for even half the world's population to turn veg would actually rape the environment a lot worse than running cattle does (methane belching vs desertification, take your pick)

so there you go. next time someone comes up to you and makes out like going veg is saving the world, ask them if they'd like to live in the middle of the fucking desert, because that's the eventual outcome of mass monoculture (read: farming any crop on a scale above subsistence farming).

[sleepy1212]

What honestly makes this different from conventional hunting with a Crossbow or Shotgun? Yeah, the animal bleeds longer, but don't you honestly think that the animal that gets hit by the shrapnel feels a tremendous amount of pain too? (Don't use the overpopulation argument because that can apply in Bullfighting as well.)

Bullfighting, like dog fighting, cock fighting, and shoving fire crackers up a cat's ass, is "entertainment" purely out of cruelty. Without the cruelty the value of that "entertainment" is lost.

Hunting is completely different. The goal is not to torture game animals. It is to harvest them. The entertainment value is in the hunt itself and then the take rather than cruelty. The tools, unlike those used in bullfighting, are designed to kill the game as quickly as possible, minimizing the animal's suffering. A conscientious hunter will attempt to use the best tools available to him, become proficient and responsible at their use, and then -unlike the bullfighter who intentionally drags out the act- make the kill quickly.

Overpopulation does not apply to bulls and do not require bullfighters to remedy the problem if it did. Cattle are under complete control. They breed when we make them. All we have to do to cull the cattle population is eat more hamburgers. Wild game are completely different. To date hunting and trapping are the most effective and responsible ways to control wild game populations and, in most cases, the only way.

[kid908]

Overpopulation does not apply to bulls and do not require bullfighters to remedy the problem if it did. Cattle are under complete control. They breed when we make them. All we have to do to cull the cattle population is eat more hamburgers. Wild game are completely different. To date hunting and trapping are the most effective and responsible ways to control wild game populations and, in most cases, the only way.

/facepalm.
you completely misunderstood rossmum. He's not talking about cattle population. He's talking about humans converting to non meat diet everywhere. the land requirement for farming will kill the land, leaving it a desert where barely anything can be grown on it.

[sleepy1212]

/facepalm.
you completely misunderstood rossmum. He's not talking about cattle population. He's talking about humans converting to non meat diet everywhere. the land requirement for farming will kill the land, leaving it a desert where barely anything can be grown on it.
/doublefacepalm

I quoted darkhalo not ross

[kid908]

/doublefacepalm

I quoted darkhalo not ross

I swear that quote box wasn't there when I read it. It went straight from ross to yours :/ my bad.

[cheezdue]

but fuck peta, i will not ever become a vegan and dress in synthetic fibres (fire magnets) just because a bunch of lunatics don't understand the basics of how shit rolls in the real world.

It'll be even more fucked up if PETA tried teaching a lion to eat tofu.
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo178/Kincyr/tofulion.jpg

[neuro]

this is probably a good thing because culture or no it is pretty cruel

but fuck peta, i will not ever become a vegan and dress in synthetic fibres (fire magnets) just because a bunch of lunatics don't understand the basics of how shit rolls in the real world. i like living at the top of the local food chain and compared to any other predator, we're quite humane overall. besides which the sheer scale of monoculture required for even half the world's population to turn veg would actually rape the environment a lot worse than running cattle does (methane belching vs desertification, take your pick)

so there you go. next time someone comes up to you and makes out like going veg is saving the world, ask them if they'd like to live in the middle of the fucking desert, because that's the eventual outcome of mass monoculture (read: farming any crop on a scale above subsistence farming).

oh i completely agree with you, PETA are a bunch of fucking mentalpatients.

[ICEE]

Tradition is no excuse. It is not a logical answer to anything. Just because "its always been done this way" doesn't mean that it isn't entirely ridiculous and barbaric.

[DarkHalo003]

Well like I said, do I like the torturing of animals part? No. Do I find the history and long-lasting culture that has developed around Bullfighting intriguing? Yes.

Bullfighting is nothing like Cockfighting or Dog Fighting. It's between a human being and a monstrous bull. Like I said, one mistake by the matador and it's game over. (The aforementioned statement isn't part of the humane section of the argument: I'm separating the fact that bullfighting isn't anything like Cockfighting, besides that people watch it for selfish purposes).

And I agree with Rossmum and Neuro about PETA. Before someone says "BUT PETA ISN'T IN THIS BULLFIGHTING ARGUMENT?" I really just want to ask you if you've even done research on bullfighting. PETA's been trying to remove Bullfighting just as long as it's been trying to rename fish sea kittens.

[paladin]

Lets force our ideology on people!

[=sw=warlord]

Lets force our ideology on people!

You're one to talk.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Well like I said, do I like the torturing of animals part? No. Do I find the history and long-lasting culture that has developed around Bullfighting intriguing? Yes.
You find the history and culture that has been based on the barbaric tradition of butchering the animal to half it's life intriguing?

Bullfighting is nothing like Cockfighting or Dog Fighting. It's between a human being and a monstrous bull. Like I said, one mistake by the matador and it's game over. (The aforementioned statement isn't part of the humane section of the argument: I'm separating the fact that bullfighting isn't anything like Cockfighting, besides that people watch it for selfish purposes).
The bull is only as monstrous as the people putting to fight for its life.
I find it interesting how people claim the beast is the monster when Humans are the ones sending them to fight and butchering them while dragging out their death for as long as possible under the pretence of entertainment.

.

[ICEE]

Well like I said, do I like the torturing of animals part? No. Do I find the history and long-lasting culture that has developed around Bullfighting intriguing? Yes.

Then it sounds like the perfect place for bullfighting is in the history books.



Bullfighting is nothing like Cockfighting or Dog Fighting. It's between a human being and a monstrous bull. Like I said, one mistake by the matador and it's game over.


Let me help you out with that. Adding in little adjectives that throw your own personal opinion into an argument of reason is a major fallacy, and corrupts your point. Besides, that "monstrous" creature is already half dead by the time the bullfight even begins.



And I agree with Rossmum and Neuro about PETA. Before someone says "BUT PETA ISN'T IN THIS BULLFIGHTING ARGUMENT?" I really just want to ask you if you've even done research on bullfighting. PETA's been trying to remove Bullfighting just as long as it's been trying to rename fish sea kittens.

Everyone agrees that PETA is nuts. We don't even have to discuss this point any further.


Bullfighting does the following things:

1.Takes a healthy bull and tortures it to a state of physical and mental weakness
2. Tosses that bull into a fight for its life against a healthy human being

In my opinion, this displays one of the lowest forms of human barbarism. Maybe it is one of Spain's cultural markers, but is that really worth the mayhem? One might argue that feeding christians to lions is one of Rome's greatest cultural symbols, but do they do that anymore?

Tradition can be one of two things: Reverence for the past, or a display of mankind's inability to move on. We do not need to slaughter bulls to remember our past.

[paladin]

Except from birth that bull is going to be in a fight, just like the cows raised for beef are born to be food. They dont just randomly take a bull from a random farm.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7950/civilrightsmarcherswith.jpg

[ICEE]

when did anyone make that claim

[INSANEdrive]

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/lawmakers-vote-to-ban-bullfighting-in-spains-catalonia-region/19569358

Basically, Bullfighting is going to exist no more. It's being stopped because the activists are null of tradition. Dammit PETA, you've crossed the line this time. :maddowns:

In England there is somehting called "The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance (http://gouk.about.com/od/whatsoninseptember/qt/Abbotsbromley.htm)". Its happened at the same time for the last 800+ years. No one knows what the tradition symbolizes, who started it, all that jazz. Time has sucked most of that knowledge clean. . . But they do it anyway...out of tradition.

Don't get me wrong, its good to remember the good times and all, but after a awhile you need to move on, less you become stagnant. Im glad this is occuring. Its too openly barbaric for this age anyway.

[paladin]

Its a god damn cow, you guys make it seem like theyre torturing children...

[ICEE]

Torture is torture.

[paladin]

Do you know how livestock is slaughtered? Paralysis, hung by rear leg, throat cut, and blead out. On smaller farms, like my families, its a bullet to the head. Either way it, neither is instant, and take several minutes to die. Is that torture?

[Syuusuke]

We're already torturing animals with our very own human existance.

[paladin]

Life sucks, move on. NEXT TOPIC.

[ICEE]

No, thats different. We do that for the sake of eating them, wheras with bullfighting its for "sport".

[rossmum]

Do you know how livestock is slaughtered? Paralysis, hung by rear leg, throat cut, and blead out. On smaller farms, like my families, its a bullet to the head. Either way it, neither is instant, and take several minutes to die. Is that torture?
woohoo, someone who gets that a bullet to the head generally isn't instant (this applies to basically anything, including people)

as a side note, while people tend to think of animals (particularly cows) as big and dumb they're a lot smarter than they're given credit for. obviously they're not about to start building rockets and flying to the moon, but they do have intelligence of their own and as such it's pretty fucking shitty to torture them (as opposed to just killing them outright for tasty, tasty burgers). let's not forget we're animals too and we once lived up trees and scratched our food out of holes in the ground with sticks.

[sleepy1212]

PETA doesn't love animals, they hate humans.


I swear that quote box wasn't there when I read it. It went straight from ross to yours :/ my bad.

np :v:


let's not forget we're animals too and we once lived up trees and scratched our food out of holes in the ground with sticks.

I'm pretty sure most still do :iamafag:

[=sw=warlord]

Do you know how livestock is slaughtered? Paralysis, hung by rear leg, throat cut, and blead out. On smaller farms, like my families, its a bullet to the head. Either way it, neither is instant, and take several minutes to die. Is that torture?

There's a difference between killing for sustenance and killing for sport.
Killing for entertainment is no where near on the same level as killing to survive.
One is vital to survival the other is not.

[rossmum]

yeah i basically agree, which is why i really don't like trophy hunting unless the rest of the animal doesn't go to waste (i.e. is eaten or whatever). going out and killing shit for the sake of might make people feel all warry but it's pretty slack and if they wanted a real challenge, they should try joining the french foreign legion as a sniper and then hunt bad dudes or some shit.

[sleepy1212]

yeah i basically agree, which is why i really don't like trophy hunting unless the rest of the animal doesn't go to waste (i.e. is eaten or whatever). going out and killing shit for the sake of might make people feel all warry but it's pretty slack and if they wanted a real challenge, they should try joining the french foreign legion as a sniper and then hunt bad dudes or some shit.

pure trophy hunting is pretty much a thing of the past. the community on a whole has moved toward total use. local deer hunters here really pride themselves on the quality of venison and amount they can harvest and nearly everyone will eat venison and prefer it over prepackaged meat any day. in PA the game commission allows each hunter 1 buck and 1 doe tag with the option to apply for 2 additional doe tags. In effect, your allowed 1 "trophy" buck -if you can find one- the three doe are purely for stocking the freezer and, from the commission view, essential takes for population management. This is all pretty standard deer management across most of the states.

In nearly all cases involving professional hunters and privately purchased hunts (like those in Africa and other countries, ranch hunts in Texas and many other states particularly Alaska, and Canada ~ which include game like Moose, Caribou, Elk, Mountain Goat, Antelope, Cape Buffalo, all big cats, Bear, all approved waterfowl, e.g, game typically associated with trophy hunting) the harvested game is cleaned and packaged and shipped to -or transported by- the tag-holder, donated to charity kitchens/local sportsman clubs/landowners, or given to local tribes (Africa). In some cases the meat can be sold to local restaurants much like fishing co-ops supply local seafood joints.

Hunting is also not typically an easy affair. While most videos and tv programs only show pieces of the hunt, most hunts are difficult and the difficulty varies with the game and region. hunting videos often show "ranch-hunts" which I find completely ridiculous (they pretty much are just: drive to stand, wait for deer) from a hunting aspect although important for breeding programs. White-tail hunting around here is somewhat easy compared to other hunts i've been on. While it typically involves marching miles in the woods in freezing temperature and sometimes sitting for hours in the snow all while wearing 20lbs of gear or more and carrying an 8lb gun, one of the biggest challenges is finding a suitable deer. In my 5 years of white-tail hunts i have yet to see a shooter buck but have managed to take at least one doe per season. I've also been on two Elk hunts in the Colorado Rocky Mountains. Elk hunting there is like deer hunting at home magnified 10 times. In mid-october at 11,000 ft we're staying in tents for a week and hunting ten's of square miles on foot in negative temperatures. We have to carry day packs because it's dangerous to go out without at least some supplies (my dad learned this first hand on our first trip). The shots are further, the slopes are steeper, and you can barely walk 100yds on flat ground without stopping to catch your breath at that altitude. In other words, hunting is in fact a challenge.

[paladin]

cows are dumb. You need to spend more time around them if you think other wise. I grew up on a ranch with 10k+ cows/steers/bulls

[Cojafoji]

mmmm sleepy, you're dead on. most hunters in PA do it for the food. I've very rarely seen anyone, while out bow hunting, hunting for the trophy, and trophy alone. The only people who do are usually the assholes from Pitt or Philly with those fucking compound bows (they're for noobs btw).

[rossmum]

pure trophy hunting is pretty much a thing of the past. the community on a whole has moved toward total use. local deer hunters here really pride themselves on the quality of venison and amount they can harvest and nearly everyone will eat venison and prefer it over prepackaged meat any day. in PA the game commission allows each hunter 1 buck and 1 doe tag with the option to apply for 2 additional doe tags. In effect, your allowed 1 "trophy" buck -if you can find one- the three doe are purely for stocking the freezer and, from the commission view, essential takes for population management. This is all pretty standard deer management across most of the states.

In nearly all cases involving professional hunters and privately purchased hunts (like those in Africa and other countries, ranch hunts in Texas and many other states particularly Alaska, and Canada ~ which include game like Moose, Caribou, Elk, Mountain Goat, Antelope, Cape Buffalo, all big cats, Bear, all approved waterfowl, e.g, game typically associated with trophy hunting) the harvested game is cleaned and packaged and shipped to -or transported by- the tag-holder, donated to charity kitchens/local sportsman clubs/landowners, or given to local tribes (Africa). In some cases the meat can be sold to local restaurants much like fishing co-ops supply local seafood joints.

Hunting is also not typically an easy affair. While most videos and tv programs only show pieces of the hunt, most hunts are difficult and the difficulty varies with the game and region. hunting videos often show "ranch-hunts" which I find completely ridiculous (they pretty much are just: drive to stand, wait for deer) from a hunting aspect although important for breeding programs. White-tail hunting around here is somewhat easy compared to other hunts i've been on. While it typically involves marching miles in the woods in freezing temperature and sometimes sitting for hours in the snow all while wearing 20lbs of gear or more and carrying an 8lb gun, one of the biggest challenges is finding a suitable deer. In my 5 years of white-tail hunts i have yet to see a shooter buck but have managed to take at least one doe per season. I've also been on two Elk hunts in the Colorado Rocky Mountains. Elk hunting there is like deer hunting at home magnified 10 times. In mid-october at 11,000 ft we're staying in tents for a week and hunting ten's of square miles on foot in negative temperatures. We have to carry day packs because it's dangerous to go out without at least some supplies (my dad learned this first hand on our first trip). The shots are further, the slopes are steeper, and you can barely walk 100yds on flat ground without stopping to catch your breath at that altitude. In other words, hunting is in fact a challenge.
That's good to hear.

Also, 8lb rifle? Dude, that's nothing, try lugging a 20lb LSW around with 70lbs on your back in 45-degree (celcius) heat. :ugh:


cows are dumb. You need to spend more time around them if you think other wise. I grew up on a ranch with 10k+ cows/steers/bulls
Cows aren't shining examples of intelligence, but there are plenty of animals which are. Alpacas are fucking ridiculously smart and they all have pretty distinct personalities, too. This is actually a problem for us because we need to try and remember exactly which ones are running towards us because they want a fuss made over them and which ones are running over to scream in our ears and spit in our faces.

[paladin]

When you see Spain fightings dogs in rings, come back to the conversation.

[ICEE]

who the fuck are you even respondeding to and what the fuck does any of this hsit have to do with anything

[Eleven]

When you see Spain fightings dogs in rings, come back to the conversation.

So an animal's intelligence determines its worth as a living thing?

Torture is torture, regardless of the victim. :ugh:

[rossmum]

So an animal's intelligence determines its worth as a living thing?

Torture is torture, regardless of the victim. :ugh:
http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-respek.gif

[sleepy1212]

mmmm sleepy, you're dead on. most hunters in PA do it for the food. I've very rarely seen anyone, while out bow hunting, hunting for the trophy, and trophy alone. The only people who do are usually the assholes from Pitt or Philly with those fucking compound crossbows (they're for noobs btw).

Bow hunting is an art and even with a compound bow it's much more difficult than it would seem. The biggest benefit to using a compound bow versus a traditional recurve bow is that the archer doesn't have to hold the draw weight, only have the strength to pull the draw weight. Of course sighting pins take out some of the guess work but compound bow technology makes bow hunting many times more humane while still retaining the essence of the tradition.

crossbows probably encapsulate better what most people mistake for the ease in bow hunting with compound bows. In most states crossbow hunting is tightly regulated and, I think, that in PA only legal in regular firearms season. However they do allow disabled hunters to participate in archery season and are given an exception in most cases.


Also, 8lb rifle? Dude, that's nothing, try lugging a 20lb LSW around with 70lbs on your back in 45-degree (celcius) heat. :ugh:.

Not everyone carries guns around all day Ross. At least you, compared to most people, can appreciate the weight of any gun after lugging it around for every second of daylight. Your average urbanite cries about the weight of his man-purse on the short walk to the subway. It's no coincidence that these are the very people who, having never hunted, fired a gun, nor held a gun, nor spent more than a few hours in the woods, make the claim that hunting is easy. The same generally goes for anti-gun activists all over which is why it's no surprise that animal rights activists (anti-hunting specifically) are so often anti-gun.

[DarkHalo003]

You're one to talk.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

.
Wow, long time since I replied. You completely took what I said wrongly too, in the sense by that's not what I meant at all. I meant intriguing as in the culture and how/why they incorporated bullfighting. You obviously neglected my part where i said i don't like the actual killing of the beast. If Spain comes out and says "We no longer think Bullfighting is legitimate in today's society" and they remove it, then by all means it's just like ICEE says where it'll remain a part of history in text books. But the main issue I have is with organizations like PETA that do crap like this because they honestly just do for attention or do it because they feel "obligated." (In whatever ways possible, if you know PETAs stupid stunts, then you know what I mean by obligated).


Then it sounds like the perfect place for bullfighting is in the history books.



Let me help you out with that. Adding in little adjectives that throw your own personal opinion into an argument of reason is a major fallacy, and corrupts your point. Besides, that "monstrous" creature is already half dead by the time the bullfight even begins.



Everyone agrees that PETA is nuts. We don't even have to discuss this point any further.


Bullfighting does the following things:

1.Takes a healthy bull and tortures it to a state of physical and mental weakness
2. Tosses that bull into a fight for its life against a healthy human being

In my opinion, this displays one of the lowest forms of human barbarism. Maybe it is one of Spain's cultural markers, but is that really worth the mayhem? One might argue that feeding christians to lions is one of Rome's greatest cultural symbols, but do they do that anymore?

Tradition can be one of two things: Reverence for the past, or a display of mankind's inability to move on. We do not need to slaughter bulls to remember our past.
I meant Monstrous as in big, not as in savage. Also, from what I've researched (or the bulls I researched), they're well cared for and bred for that purpose their entire lives. I don't want to revolve around this part of an argument though, mainly because it isn't the reason why I posted the thread.

I'm glad we come to an agreeance about PETA.

Actually, the bull is usually at its peak for the fight. You're throwing in your own little twists too. Unless the caretaker or the arena owner just doesn't care if the bull can actually fight well (which is what Spanish viewers look for so it wouldn't make sense for an arena to gain bad rep through bad fights), the bull is usually going to be able to destroy the Matador. Also, if the meat is salvageable, the bull is usually refined after the match and sold. So saying that the bull is made just for the fight is technically wrong, although very controversial (which is why I posted this in the Great Debate).

[Eleven]

I don't understand why you keep bringing up PETA. The debate surrounding bullfighting came about long before PETA even existed.

Also, whether or not the bull is healthy at the beginning of the fight is an issue which, although significant, is beside the point. There is no justification for the cruel, drawn-out death of a living thing, regardless of tradition.

[ICEE]

I don't understand why you keep bringing up PETA. The debate surrounding bullfighting came about long before PETA even existed.

Also, whether or not the bull is healthy at the beginning of the fight is an issue which, although significant, is beside the point. There is no justification for the cruel, drawn-out death of a living thing, regardless of tradition.

This, a thousand times.

What PETA has to say about it, PETA's reputation, the health of the bull, the purpose of raising the bull, the role of tradition, the quality of the bull's life prior to and after the event are all IRRELEVANT to the issue.

The only possible exception is the torturing of the bull prior to the fight to ensure the matador wins, as that obviously counts as animal cruelty.

The fact of the matter is that the bull is being treated inhumanely with no positive repercussions.

[Cojafoji]

The fact of the matter is that the bull is being treated inhumanely with no positive repercussions.
Unless of course you count the blood lust of the crowd being satiated as positive.