Religion Essay, Need a bit of a helping hand.

[Alwin Roth]

I'm here to ask for a tad bit of help.

I have to write an 11 paragraph essay about religion.

Not really something I want to talk about, but it was that topic and anything in that topic.

So, I have chosen to talk about how it affected society.
(To which it did greatly)

I wrote how it suppressed science, and made beliefs with no evidence what so ever.

But do you guys know any flaws written in the bible?
Or any flaws of religion in general?

(yes I know my thesis isn't a good, but I don't mind that at the moment, I'll change it later)

[paladin]

That doesnt sound like a bias paper.

[Bodzilla]

yeah, because we all know that the crusades and the dark ages had no religious influence behind them at all.
Don't we paladin.

Talk about the suppression of gay rights, interracial marriage, how it sanctioned slaves, paedophilia, genocide and burning your mother at the stake for having a garment made of 2 threads.
heres some info.
rHaVUjjH3EI

[DarkHalo003]

Also talk about the positives and don't be so damn bias about it. Sure, having assertions in an essay is a great way of individualizing it, but unless you're a High School Senior, just stick with the standard bullcrap format. In other words, report it, don't opinionate it like crazy. [/rage]

Okay, you're missing an incredible amount of important history. Pay attention to the parenthesis too. For one, look into how it influenced the Western society in every way possible. Christianity and the Reformation virtually led to the creation of modern United States. It was the main influence of society in England during it's saga of imperialism (note India of the time) as well. DO NOT FORGOT THE CRUSADES EITHER. The Crusades have done a ton to influence and shape history as it is today. It's partially one of the reasons for a ton of misguided anger from the radicals in the Middle East. Religion has also shaped many important Presidential elections within the United States and a general foundation for the law of the land, which develops into the law we know today (note that today law is defined through experience).

I should also note that Religion as a whole did not limit science. Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism promoted science greatly in many forms. You need to research that. Unless you're only talking about Christianity in regards to Science, I'd probably give you a low to failing grade with your current ideas.

@Bodz: Note how you blame a lot on a religion from human errors. Just saying.

[paladin]

Add how it influenced art. We would not have art as we know it today without funding and commissions from churches.

[ICEE]

Shut up friends, we're avoiding the important question here. Is this supposed to be an essay in which you reveal your feelings on religion, or is it supposed to be entirely objective? If it is, re-word your sentences to say that "people" feel that religion has hindered science, or "historians believe that..." blah blah blah. It may seem ridiculous, but sometimes objectivity is the difference between passing and failing.

[ChemicalFizz]

^ Listen to that guy.

How exactly did you go from "How it affected society" to "do you guys know any flaws written in the bible? Or any flaws of religion in general?" Is the purpose of the paper to refute religious beliefs or to evaluate its impact on society? Exactly which one is it? Surely religion's impact on civilization encompasses more than the spreading of false beliefs and falsifying the findings of scientific thinkers. And yes, from the way I see it, your paper up to now is slightly biased. It seems more of a persuasive paper arguing against religion (as a whole) than an informative, well-researched paper. Unless your professor wanted it that way.

[Warsaw]

I'd just like to throw out that, no matter what side of the fence you are on (if this is a persuasive paper and not simply an informative one), you should ALWAYS bring up the arguments of the opposition so you can use it as a springboard or shoot it down with evidence to support your own (but do so truthfully).

[ICEE]

^this right here

[Bodzilla]

Shut up friends,
Don't call me friend, Guy!

[Aerowyn]

But do you guys know any flaws written in the bible?
Or any flaws of religion in general?


The Bible, though supposed to be the word of God, was written by man. That's the flaw. Men are corruptible and prone to making mistakes. I am SURE many or most things in the Bible were meant to cater to certain individuals for personal gain.

Kind of like Lent, right? I remember someone telling me that it's not about anything particularly religious, that it was actually meant to force people to purchase fish from the fish market (which, very obviously, puts money in the fishmonger's pocket).

11 paragraphs is not going to be enough if you're talking about the impact religion has had on society. It pervades most aspects of every day life. XD

[=sw=warlord]

I never thought this image would be so appropriate for a forum discussion.
But...
http://www.defaithed.com/system/files/bible-warning.jpg

[Cojafoji]

Friars gave us beer. 'Nuff said.

No but seriously, religion didn't do any of the bad things: people did. People who insist that it is "god's will" or that the bible "speaks verse for verse on the subject." They're manipulating dogmatic lawyers of perilous anti-conscious insanity. To reinforce my statement, I'll include a picture, that I too, like warlord, never would have believed to be more appropriate to a forum discussion.

http://i.imgur.com/qw88i.gif

No but seriously, seriously, don't overlook the facts that there has been a LOT of small scale good things done by religion. Monasteries that run orphanages, schools, or hospitals. Not saying that you can over look the heavy handed antics of the religious establishment in the past, but at the same time, you really should acknowledge those who gave to others out of pure selflessness in the name of what they thought to be god.

[DarkHalo003]

Also, the Bible shouldn't be a main focus in your writings. It hasn't really been proven nor disproven as it is an account (or whatever term you want to use) of the past, which is always up to skepticism. In other words, it's not really a good topic to write about specifically because you have no physical evidence to back any statements you so write about it.

And I agree with the later part of Cojafoji's statement; there are good results from religious establishments, some additions being mission trips where people across the globe are helped in some manner and charities that have formed because of religion.

[paladin]

The bible shouldn't be his main source when it only accounts for 1/3 of religious people.

[DarkHalo003]

The bible shouldn't be his main source when it only accounts for 1/3 of religious people.
This statement is true. Listen to this statement.

[Dwood]

Glad everyone has said what i was goin to.

[Rentafence]

http://i.imgur.com/qw88i.gif


Unless you can tell me how you defined scientific advancement in a numerical sense, this graph is completely bogus.

[DarkHalo003]

Unless you can tell me how you defined scientific advancement in a numerical sense, this graph is completely bogus.
I agree. You realize that the Christian Dark Ages wasn't the entire world at that time, right?

[Bodzilla]

while religion is responsible for some cool things, like say charity and that sort of stuff, these also exist without a religious influence. and while the concept of hell vs heaven is brilliant as a story line and for artistic inspiration, it's a small consolation when you look at shit like burning people alive at the stake, the suppression of knowledge and education, the lies about condoms in aid stricken africa and the wars.... well it's just not a net positive.

Also you cannot deny the bullshit they did in holding back scientific advancement. Simple as that.
It happened and saying "well in some far off corner of the globe away from this particular religion science could of advanced." but that is ignoring the fact that knowledge and scientific understanding has been centralised until information has been able to move quickly across the globe.
It's a exponentially increasing thing.

for example, A guy is going to have a hard time trying to figure out the hypotenuse theory if he doesn't have a grasp of say square roots and squared mathematical equations.
it's just not going to happen.

not to mention that while the European and middle eastern kingdoms did suppress this in one way, it was suppressed in other ways across the globe, such as witchcraft and all that other shit, that you still see happening in isolated community's in the jungles.

[ICEE]

^ pretty much this.

The fact is: some people need religion to get by; there are those who have such poor circumstances that they need to believe in an eternal justice to live happily. For this reason, you cannot banish religion, because it does help those people.

However: Religion allows for control over people. In some ways this is good, morals can be enforced and such. This in mind, morality does not depend on religion, though at one point in time it may have. In other ways, religious control can be a devastating evil (crusades, al quaeda, spanish inquisition, etc), and it can encourage the masses to blindly follow those who may abuse such power.

In short, it is a two sided coin.

Personally, I believe that those who do not NEED religion (as described previously), should not HAVE religion. Not to say that they should not be given that right, but in my ideal (make pretend) world, those who are without severe misfortune would not need a god. I am an atheist, because I need no god in my life.

[Dwood]

Personally, I believe that those who do not NEED religion (as described previously), should not HAVE religion.

This is exactly what I believe, however I'm going to change one word, which makes all of the difference.



Personally, I believe that those who do not WANT religion (as described previously), should not HAVE religion.

Simple semantics, however I will not impose on anyone even in my imaginary worlds. ;)

Edit: (warning, trolling in the following spoiler)



Personally, I believe that those who do not NEED Porn (as described previously), should not HAVE porn.



Personally, I believe that those who do not NEED Atheism (as described previously), should not HAVE Atheism.



Personally, I believe that those who do not NEED Freedom (as described previously), should not HAVE Freedom.


This was just supposed to be a silly statement so :downs:

[neuro]

the bible sias that if you have sex with your woman if she's on her perioud, you must both be killed.

[neuro]

also: i'm not against religion, i'm against ORGANISED religion.

[TeeKup]

Angels and Demons gave a good quote about religion that I had never thought of.

"I asked if you believed in God, not what man says about God."

At their cores, religion can have very good core values. It's not until man corrupts religious sayings to better benefit himself, most of the time at the expense of others.

I have a different approach to God than Christian, Judaic or Islamic perspectives. When people ask me If I believe in God I tell them yes, although it may not exactly be the God they were taught to worship.

[Bastinka]

I read this somewhere but don't recall where. There is one major contradiction in the bible or withing Christian theists and that is if God proves its existence then it no longer exists or never did at all, yet some theists say the human eye is so complex only a superior being could have designed it. Right there God proved its existence so basically these theists that agree with the human eye statement contradict their own religion.

[ICEE]

I have a different approach to God than Christian, Judaic or Islamic perspectives. When people ask me If I believe in God I tell them yes, although it may not exactly be the God they were taught to worship.

For a long time I held this same approach, it got so frustrating when my Christian friend would describe me as someone who "does not believe in god", though I explained countless times that I simply did not believe in his god. Some people don't want to understand. (

[Aerowyn]

Add how it influenced art. We would not have art as we know it today without funding and commissions from churches.

The reason we have Montegna, Parmigianino, Raphael, Botticelli, Caravaggio, Bellini, and SO MANY OTHER masters is because they all painted religious scenes REGARDLESS of whether or not they were commissioned by a church. Many painted relgious scenes just to express their own faith. And most of those painters depicted not only Christian religious subject matter, but also greek and roman mythologies, like Birth of Venus and the Primavera.

Sure, many of these artists were commissioned by churches to do fresco buono, but the church was not their only source of income. And I find it both insulting and incredibly ignorant of you to attribute all of the fame of these artists to the fact that they painted on a church wall or ceiling. Michelangelo did SO MUCH MORE than the Sistine Chapel. I mean, look at David, look at Pieta, look at his drawings.

Religion influenced art. Would we still have wonderful Renaissance paintings without the church funneling money into the artists? Most likely.

[DarkHalo003]

I think the biggest hiccup regarding Religious education is the fact that people don't look at what the actual religion is saying most of the time, but rather look at what people do to represent the religion. Christianity is much more than Old Testament laws, it's about the arrival of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His love for us enough to allow being crucified on the cross to die for us, to take the pain of our sins and free us from such baggage. John 3:16. I chose to accept Christianity because of many reasons, but I believe in God and I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

I'm not great at explaining this much more, but I guess to keep my main point central, I'll roughly quote Ghandi on this: "I like your Christianity. I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians." I think people focus on what other people say too much in other words.

In regards to proof and disproof of God, it's fair to say that you honestly cannot do so. People easily underestimate the term in regards to the magnitude, mainly because as humans we are more inclined to think we have control of everything we can have control of. I don't know where you heard that quote, Bastinka, but it does not sound like anything I've heard of from the Bible. And trust me, if I haven't heard of something like that yet, it probably isn't an accurate quotation. In terms of the prefix Omni, I believe that God could do anything. Even end all of existence of everything.

[Bodzilla]

the thing is darkhalo that all through either the old testament, the new testament or the Koran (sp?) there is some pretty wacky shit that is said, and alot of people take that wacky shit and still enforce it.

"thou shalt not permit a witch to live"

[DarkHalo003]

the thing is darkhalo that all through either the old testament, the new testament or the Koran (sp?) there is some pretty wacky shit that is said, and alot of people take that wacky shit and still enforce it.

"thou shalt not permit a witch to live"
Well it's all due to fear and panic and misunderstanding. The Bible and these religious articles are meant for interpretation, but people misunderstand exactly what a witch and all of that kind of stuff is pertaining to. It's like the verse that says that the good should never mix with the wicked, which most people believe are the socially astray goths and those in a similar archetype, which easily is not the case at all. People shouldn't fear and worry too greatly about the laws that are thrown into the Old Testament and some in the New Testament (the ones similarly affiliated if any) mainly because the most important laws of all are the Ten Commandments and words spoken by Jesus Christ. At least, that's my opinion on the matter, anyways.

[king_nothing_]

http://i.imgur.com/qw88i.gif
That graph is horribly incorrect. For one, it seems to be suggesting that Christianity caused the Dark Ages. It didn't. Christianity perhaps worsened or lengthened it some, but laying the full blame on Christianity like that is just completely inaccurate. The fall of the Western Roman Empire was the primary cause. Plagues didn't help either.

Showing scientific advancement during that entire period as a perfectly flat line (zero advancement) is also hilariously wrong. It slowed down, sure, but there were scientific and technological advancements. There was a renaissance in the 12th century, for fuck's sake (which generally isn't even regarded as being part of the Dark Ages, but the genius who made that graph extended it way too far).

You have to be careful about where you get your information. When you come across a graph about scientific advancement and religion that says "NOBELIEFS.COM" in the bottom right corner, looks overly-simplistic, and has no scale or numerical data on its y-axis...it would be prudent to be at least a tad skeptical of its veracity.

[Bodzilla]

Well it's all due to fear and panic and misunderstanding. The Bible and these religious articles are meant for interpretation, but people misunderstand exactly what a witch and all of that kind of stuff is pertaining to. It's like the verse that says that the good should never mix with the wicked, which most people believe are the socially astray goths and those in a similar archetype, which easily is not the case at all. People shouldn't fear and worry too greatly about the laws that are thrown into the Old Testament and some in the New Testament (the ones similarly affiliated if any) mainly because the most important laws of all are the Ten Commandments and words spoken by Jesus Christ. At least, that's my opinion on the matter, anyways.
Thou shalt not permit a witch to live IS one of the ten commandments.

Seriously look at the ten commandments, most of them are fucking retarded anyway.

And while it's cool to say "yeah you shouldnt take that one literally it's for interpretation, BUT THIS ONE HERE IS THE WORD OF GOD AND WE MUST PUNISH THE GAYS!!!!" is shameless cherry picking to suit your own personal view.
which is bullshit to be quite honest.

[king_nothing_]

Thou shalt not permit a witch to live IS one of the ten commandments.
Uh, no. It's not.

[CN3089]

Thou shalt not permit a witch to live IS one of the ten commandments.

Did you get your bible mixed up with your Warhammer books again

[Dwood]

I was going to say l4d2 with the Bible but that works too.

[DarkHalo003]

Yeah, here are the 10 Commandments for those who don't know them:

1.) “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me."
- Basically means that you shouldn't worship any other gods before the one, true God.
2.) “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments."
- Do not worship idols or anything of the sort in other words. When it says "jealous" it's not human envy/jealousy, it's more like God cares for us to always want the relationship with us.
3.) “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."
- Probably one of the most famous, this one spells out some open interpretation and debate. It's not exactly saying that you shouldn't yell "God ******!" (although you probably shouldn't anyways), but it is saying that you don't need to say something in the name of the Lord that you won't follow up on (permitting it follows the other commandments).
4.) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."
- Pretty straight forward, keep one day of the week devoted for God.
5.) “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you."
- Pretty Straightforward as well.
6.) “You shall not murder."
- Pretty Straightforward (I hope).
7.) “You shall not commit adultery."
- This one is what is says, but also pertains to secretly adulterating in your own heart.
8.) “You shall not steal."
- Any manner of stealing is not okay.
9.) “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
- This one is pretty straightforward. Don't slander anyone. DO NOT LIE.
10.) “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”
- Do not envy anything.

[sleepy1212]

I read this somewhere but don't recall where. There is one major contradiction in the bible or withing Christian theists and that is if God proves its existence then it no longer exists or never did at all, yet some theists say the human eye is so complex only a superior being could have designed it. Right there God proved its existence so basically these theists that agree with the human eye statement contradict their own religion.

you're thinking of William Paley who wrote about complexity in nature as proof of design. He was actually just ignorant providing an Argument from Personal Incredulity...or maybe Irreducible Complexity, which usually just the former in disguise.


I wrote how it suppressed science

that was actually politics, although it was religious leader invoking their political influence, it really was just politics.


and made beliefs with no evidence what so ever.

I think you should rephrase that. Truthfully it would be considered very poor evidence instead of no evidence at all. Just try to imagine being alive at the first sparks of civilization and try to explain things you can't because you don't know any science. With the evidence you have available it's understandable to answer questions spiritually. Now of course on many subjects modern religion has no excuse but it's possible that, in the past, that religion was necessary to the development of civilization or culture.

Maybe you should include why we have religion in the first place. How did it develop and why? How has religion survived from the onset of civilization into the present? What was its role then and now? Lots of good questions.

I recommend Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller, and of course any major theological works you can get your hands on.

[DarkHalo003]

Also remember that science is literally how and religion is philosphically/purposely why.

[Cojafoji]

The graph that I posted was playing along with the sarcasm of my post. Jesus you guys need to lighten up.

[paladin]

Thou shalt not permit a witch to live IS one of the ten commandments.
Seriously look at the ten commandments, most of them are fucking retarded anyway.


You should at least google the 10 commandments before you talk about them, so you don't sound completely stupid. For the most part, they are common sense morals of society.

1. Put your holiest asset at priority 1. If your religious, it's your God. If you are not, its what ever you find most important to you.
2. Don't be a pompous asshole.
3. Keep your mouth clean.
4. Give yourself a break once a week. If your religious, go to church. If your not, watch football and drink a beer.
5. Unless they truly don't deserve it, shouldn't you treat your parents with respect?
6. Religious or not, can you get away with murder?
7. What happens with your spouse cheats on you? Very rarely do couples not get divorced.
8. Religious or not, can you steal something and not potentially have to pay the consequences?
9. Religious or not, lying is generally not a good thing to do.
10.
Do not envy anything.

To say that "most of them are fucking retarded anyway", it shows your character quite well. I'm surprised you can function in society. Religious people aren't the only ones who live by the ten commandments, most of them are actual law, moral etiquette, or just plain common sense.

[Bodzilla]

while i slipped up with what i said earlier, i have been having a pretty fucking hectic time atm, kinda busy organising a house and shit, and it's been sometime since i pulled out my trusty paperweight for a read.

but as for: the commandments

1. Given the nature of all religion's this ones pretty self explanatory.
2. i mean c'mon. the most powerful all knowing omnipotent being in the universe is jealous of us? someone's got daddy issues. so no it's not actually about being a pompous asshole, it's about worshipping or showing any affection for an image or object really. alot of people raise there hands in salute to Muso's at concerts. are they breaking this commandment?
This really has nothing at all to do with morality.
3. The lords name in vain? another beautiful example of morality right there.... It's a perception and nothing more.
4. The sabbath. whats the penalty for working on the sabath again? If your toilet breaks and starts spewing shit into your house on a sunday... are you gunna try and fix it? ridiculous law if i ever heard one, sometimes shit just needs to get done.
5. Honor thy farther and mother. whats the penalty for breaking this again?... there is no room for movement on this one, regardless of the circumstances or the abuse your family do, having to follow exactly what they say to the letter is kinda fucking ridiculous.
6. This is actually a good moral here, but it's not exact divine in origin.
7. Same thing as 6. pretty coo, but thats about it.
8. same as 6 and 7.
9. same as 6, 7 and 8
10. Pretty cool this one.

so basically 1 through 5 are kinda silly.
and 6-10 arn't exactly new ideals anyway.

[king_nothing_]

Maybe "thou shalt not permit a witch to live" was on the tablet that Moses dropped (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk#t=00m47s), eh?

:haw:

[paladin]

Maybe "thou shalt not permit a witch to live" was on the tablet that Moses dropped (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk#t=00m47s), eh?

:haw:

Thats it

[Cagerrin]

The fact that there was no "room for movement" on the Ten Commandments is essentially what fucked the Jews over. The laws only work when they're followed in the spirit rather than the letter, and their obsession with the letter ruined them.

Of course, much of that was also written specifically with their obsession with the letter of the law in mind. The version of the Laws from the Gospel is far less exacting and restrictive because it relies on understanding the spirit of the law. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

[Dwood]

It wasn't the Ten Commandments themselves, those ideas are easy to live by... Compared to the other laws anyway. if you knew anything about the "Law of Moses" you would know that it extends far beyond those ten "laws". And if you knew anything about Christ and His life you would know that he "Did away" with the mosaic Law, and gave us better laws, ones of forgiveness, but what do I know I'm a right winged Bible Thumper.

[Bodzilla]

but the mosaic laws where gods word whern't they?
isn't god's word infallible :S

[sleepy1212]

but the mosaic laws where gods word whern't they?
isn't god's word infallible :S
they were prophetic. the 4th commandment in particular, the genesis story, and loads and loads of moses's law are references to jesus's birth and death. much of the old testament is symbolic.

the 2nd commandment was meant to separate abraham's people from the surrounding canaanites who were heavy into idol worship.

the 3rd is just a mistranslation. It originally said not to take an oath in the lord's name, or more basic, don't make promises you can't keep. There's lots implied here by this commandment but a lot of it has to do with the fallibility of god versus the fallibility of man. the modern idea of not being able to speak the name of god is ridiculous. "that piece of halibut was good enough for jehovah!"

someone already said it really, that the 10 commandments are no longer needed. If Moses's law and the ten commandments were a contract with God, then Jesus fulfilled it and Christians are free from it.

[DarkHalo003]

2. i mean c'mon. the most powerful all knowing omnipotent being in the universe is jealous of us? someone's got daddy issues. so no it's not actually about being a pompous asshole, it's about worshipping or showing any affection for an image or object really. alot of people raise there hands in salute to Muso's at concerts. are they breaking this commandment?
This really has nothing at all to do with morality.

Not jealous of us, but jealous of what we might draw our attention to. But remember the jealous that it's referring to isn't the same as human jealousy. I wish I could explain it a lot better, but there are others who can explain it way better than I can.



4. The sabbath. whats the penalty for working on the sabath again? If your toilet breaks and starts spewing shit into your house on a sunday... are you gunna try and fix it? ridiculous law if i ever heard one, sometimes shit just needs to get done.
It's talking more about finding one day to at least give the Lord your undecided attention more than working on that day. Plus, some things are mandatory and some things are not. Obviously an emergency isn't what one should consider a work standard.



5. Honor thy farther and mother. whats the penalty for breaking this again?... there is no room for movement on this one, regardless of the circumstances or the abuse your family do, having to follow exactly what they say to the letter is kinda fucking ridiculous.
You definitely mistake the intent of this commandment. Even if your father or mother are horridly wretched people, you're still supposed to respect them to the degree that they are your father and mother. It kind of follows the same lines o "love thy neighbor as thyself" sort of deal, only on a different level I guess.

No one said the commandments were easy to follow. No one said that following them completely is a common occurrence. It's not like Christians are perfect do-goods who can perfectly and flawlessly follow these rules. If anyone could vouch for that, I'd definitely be a living example.

[Cagerrin]

but the mosaic laws where gods word whern't they?
isn't god's word infallible :S
Technically, the commandments from the Gospel are the same as the commandments given on Mount Sinai, but they're worded in a way that makes it easier to understand the spirit of the laws. The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews because that's what they needed at the time, but they failed to understand the spirit, and turned them into a ridiculous legal formalism, which they stuck to rather blindly, which is what caused them to crucify Christ.

[Dwood]

Because no one could be the literal Son of God. :downs:

Edit: God is infallible, but that doesn't mean he can't change the word to fit different peoples and eras can he? I mean if you are a member of a Christian religion He created the laws... I don't get why people don't understand that he can change them?

Also, The Ten Commandments are still active, it's just the rest of the Mosaic law that was done away with, that we should be living in spirit of the laws... Take a look at all of them and tell me that we shouldn't obey them.

[sleepy1212]

Also, The Ten Commandments are still active, it's just the rest of the Mosaic law that was done away with, that we should be living in spirit of the laws... Take a look at all of them and tell me that we shouldn't obey them.

You ask Paul what he has to say about that, although i'm sure Peter would agree.

[Warsaw]

If God is infallible then why did he make a faulty angel (Lucifer)? Why did he have to create a universe in the first place? Did he get bored? The implications by themselves point to being inherently flawed in some way at some level. Otherwise, it just doesn't make one lick of sense, and it's hard to be faithful to something that can't even get itself straight.

If God is all powerful, why doesn't he just make Satan disappear? Why does he need us to fight a proxy war with him? Smells like a certain recent period in history to me...I call shenanigans.


tl;dr: I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[ChemicalFizz]

If God is infallible then why did he make a faulty angel (Lucifer)? Why did he have to create a universe in the first place? Did he get bored? The implications by themselves point to being inherently flawed in some way at some level. Otherwise, it just doesn't make one lick of sense, and it's hard to be faithful to something that can't even get itself straight.

If God is all powerful, why doesn't he just make Satan disappear? Why does he need us to fight a proxy war with him? Smells like a certain recent period in history to me...I call shenanigans.


tl;dr: I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Yes, let him simply snap his magical fingers and make it all go away. Instead of having the police officers, the doctors, the trade/skill workers, economists, politicians, nurses, members of the armed forces, farmers, national security workers, teachers, professors, researchers, scientists, charity workers, financiers, and leaders combat the "evils" of the world, let God take care of everything by simply taking advantage of his "omnipotent" powers and making them all go away: famine, terrorism, racism, sexism, fascism, disparity in socioeconomic conditions, social inequality, crime, hate, lack of edjumacation, cancer, economic troubles, genocide, pestilence, murder, all of them. You're right. Why, instead of having the "human economy" learn to deal with the hardship, shouldn't God just simply make haste and rid the nations of the world of their misery? Why do people have to go through years of training in a certain discipline to make an effort to promote positive change if their beloved God can simply make it all better in a day's time? Why aren't people allowed to spend their lives in a constant flow of euphoria, pleasure, peace, and happiness, and forced instead to go through schooling to make a career for themselves, essentially in a discipline that involves community service? Why are they constantly forced to undergo hardship to understand the meaning of an ethereal value like "integrity" and "hard work" in an otherwise ugly world that doesn't reward them? Why aren't we just allowed to sit around all day knowing everything is well in the global setting? I mean why the fuck not?

YEAH! What an indecisive, capricious character. All that power in his hands and yet he can't do jack squat. Why DOESN'T he make Satan, once his beloved son, disappear? Why do we do all the goddamn work? Although, you have to give him credit when he asked his beloved son, The Devil himself, to love humans as much as he, his son, loved him. That's a score 1 for us. Also, damn anyone who replies with "God works in mysterious ways" simply because they know no better answer to give you.

Better yet, let's question the big guy himself. Let's question him for his every motive and reduce the "possibility" of his existence through speculative and logical reasoning, reasoning techniques essentially fabricated by thinkers. Great thinkers, no doubt, but still human at the core. In fact, I bet anyone with a PhD in Philosophy from a major university can essentially debunk God and his confusing motives. Sure thing we can reduce the existence of an omnipotent God and his laws simply by arranging a few sentences, asking the right questions, and using human "logic" to reduce it to a tried-and-true answer.

If you didn't get any of the above, or tl;dr'd, then you must know, I was being 100% sarcastic. And I hope you realize that. I don't think I can sit here listening to people reducing Christianity and its "validity" to an arrangement of sentences challenging God and his "logic." Your post reminded me of something I read from none other than the brilliant and respected Epicurus, who proposed the Problem of Evil:
"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?" - Epicurus

Oh yes. Let me tell you right off the bat, I'm not nearly at the intelligence quotient of this man right here. Surely if he is able to debunk the man-in-the-clouds I've believed in my whole life, then I should live my life in shame for being a sheep in an herd of fake religion followers. But I know one thing for sure. Epicurus, in this one statement of no more than 33 words, seems to claim that God cannot exist simply because he is "unwilling" and "malevolent." And if he's unable, then he is just a weak man claiming to be the ruler of humanity. Sure. Reduce the work and words of centuries of religious followers, research (Jesuit scholars), theologists, and the very words and journeys of Jesus Christ, the only known human to have ever lived a sinless life, whose love for humans finally convinced his father that humans deserve a second chance, even after war, fascism, murder, and hate, especially in that blasted time period.

Do you even know why we have "Patrion Saints," and why the church names them? Michael ("Who is like God?"), patron saint of soldiers, the ill, grocers, mariners, paratroopers, and policemen. Gabriel, patron saint of postal workers and messengers (telecommunications and broadcasting). Raphael, patron saint of medical workers. Aloysius Gonzaga, patron saint of AIDS care-givers. Maybe, if you've ever wondered, it's because these specific skills/crafts are for us to deal with, not God. He is not human. Excuse the cliche, but nothing in life comes free.

And before you say anything about the validity of the religion, you must realize what it means to the people that follow it. Going to church and mass on Sunday isn't just a 1-hour ordeal of praying and walking out. Mass is a lecture. After the 1st, 2nd, and Gospel reading, the priest is supposed to lecture us and "analyze" the intended reading for that day. Even today, priests are still figuring out what kind of spiritual and moral guidance they're supposed to be teaching to the masses of people that actually want to be Christians. Even today, we are interpreting the new and old testament after having read the book 390474674806 times over, each subsequent decade. Before you ever insult a priest and the religion he preaches, you better know what kind of commitment each and every clergyman makes to his religion. Leading a life of celibacy because their one and only faith, at least they believe, belongs to God. That they give up a career, family, friends, and personal enjoyment because they so strongly believe their life is worth living in service of their God. Leading that kind of life is joke and meme-worthy at best on the internet, and sooner or later, Encyclopedia Dramatica will have an article telling how much they're faggots for stupidly believing in something as ethereal and intangible as that. But believe me, it's no different than if you gave up your time for a career or passion you have. And that's what their passion is: servitude to God, even in the face of people who say these clergymen are praying to a non-existent entity.

If you're going to question any religion, you better have done your research. Even Atheism is a whole discipline of teachings and reasoning, and I cannot refute it because I simply do not know enough TO refute it. It's a daunting task to simply sit through and comprehend the whole wikipedia page for it. I can tell you, Christianity has a lifetime of history behind it, and even modern Christians, I bet, know less than half there is to know about their own religion. I'm damn sure the same applies to every other religion imaginable, from the Rastafarian movement to Judaism. I can also say less than half of "my people" are perfect Christians. I know I'm not. I openly defy the commandments, I do it again and again without guilt most of the time. and am not a consistent church-goer. If there is one thing I'll remember my old man saying, it's when he said "Kevin, I don't believe in religion. I believe in hard work."

[Dwood]

Ignoring ChemFizz's wall of text....


If God is infallible then why did he make a faulty angel (Lucifer)?


God didn't make Lucifer faulty... he gave him (and us) Agency (power + ability to do what we want).


Otherwise, it just doesn't make one lick of sense, and it's hard to be faithful to something that can't even get itself straight.

Why? I could tell you why, according to my beliefs and those of my religion if you want this answered in full detail (pm me, however I'm not going to type up a whole thing of it only for it to be cast for naught)... but let's turn it another way, in the end, if I believe in God (which I do) therefore I believe that it's not God being faulty but it is Us that is faulty in understanding... If something seems out of place, it is because we are missing some kinds of key information.



If God is all powerful, why doesn't he just make Satan disappear? Why does he need us to fight a proxy war with him?
(assuming one believes in God and Satan)

God keeps Satan here so that we can be tempted, have our faith (if we have any) and belief in God and Jesus Christ put under trial so that we can know for ourselves the differences between misery and happiness.

[Bodzilla]

here you go children theres this wonderful drug that makes everything fun and happy BUT DONT YOU EVER FUCKING DO IT BECAUSE IF YOU DO I WILL SEE TO IT THAT YOU ARE TORTURED FOREVER IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL.

Also couldnt god make it so we wouldnt misinterpret him??
he'd know in advance what we do would be misinterpretted, so why wouldn't he just do it so we wouldnt.

long story short if i was god, i'd be a better man then him anyday.

[Dwood]

Personally, I choose freedom to do and think, and perceive as I wish. ;)

[TeeKup]

I thought it was said somewhere that God either doesn't or chose not to affect the free will of humanity?


WALL OMG

Holy damn in a bottle. You essentially hit the nail on the head behind my reasoning of God. I still believe in him in a sense.

He does not fix or solve everything for us, that would cripple us forever. If we are his children, then like any father he loves us dearly, he wants us to be strong and to live prosperously. To do that, there are many many things that we as a species must do ourselves. He cannot hold our hand, I believe he did that thousands of years ago. In today's modern age, I believe he still guide's us. But he isn't holding our hand anymore.

Of course I'm still trailing agnosticism, but leaning greatly towards Christianity.

[Warsaw]

Yay, it worked. That's what I want to see; instead of just shouting "hurr durr my view is better, and I'm not going to tell you why but simply point you in a direction that might explain why because I don't have a better answer/am too lazy to find it", you should post your logic. That is how you make an essay, my friends: point-counterpoint and then detailing of logic.

Congratulations, you've just been manipulated.

[DarkHalo003]

God wants us to live a freaking life. He also wants us to reject the doubt in the world and go to Him for safety. Psalm 23. God created us with free will purposely, not accidentally or any random reason. He cares for us. We are naturally selfish due to sin, thus when someone we love dies or something doesn't go our way, we automatically imply that God is cruel or doesn't exist because something bad happened and it affects us individually. However, have you ever thought that this world didn't belong to you? That this is God's world and that He cares about everything involving us. We're just living in it. God gives and takes away, but he still loves us and knows best for us. ALL OF US. INDIVIDUALLY TOO. God's reasoning and plan are beyond comprehension in its entirety by human beings. Revelations reveals vaguely how the final days will go down and when God's ultimate plan is finished. In other words, this is God's universe and He merely wants us to live in it alongside Him.

If you didn't get what I said, read Dwood's and Chemical's posts.

Also, if you don't understand the emotions that go into this sort of thing, go listen to some Brave Saint Saturn, Matthias Replaces Judas by Showbread, and Sent By Ravens. It can be some seriously powerful stuff.

[Warsaw]

Who was that post directed towards? Me? It seems you missed the point, good sir.

[Dwood]

Yay, it worked.


Why did it work? It did not work on me, I am not angry? If it worked, what was it? Because if you were trolling it was not.



That's what I want to see; instead of just shouting "hurr durr my view is better, and I'm not going to tell you why but simply point you in a direction that might explain why because I don't have a better answer/am too lazy to find it", you should post your logic.


I told you why I won't tell you exactly what I believe? and you proved the reason why I won't say it to be extremely valid? And I did not assume my point was better?

Sir, I am not acting like I'm better than you or acting like my points are better? I am responding to questions you posed with clarity. If you wanted an explanation and were serious about it we could have started a private conversation?



That is how you make an essay, my friends: point-counterpoint and then detailing of logic.


Congratulations, you've just been manipulated.

Wait, what?

[DarkHalo003]

Who was that post directed towards? Me? It seems you missed the point, good sir.
It wasn't directed at your post, per say. It was directed at the same posts Dwood's and Chemical's posts were directed at. Mine was just in concurrence.

[Warsaw]

And they were directed at mine.

@Dwood: the point of my post was to get you guys to actually spell out your reasoning instead of just trying to point people in the general direction of your reasoning; this thread was about an essay (or more to the point, making an argument) and you can't make an effective stance without spelling out your logic. You are trying to throw a bone and have people draw their own conclusion based on where that bone lands; it doesn't work and only makes people roll their eyes at your points because you didn't back it up with anything substantial. Giving people the runaround is not going to help them see things from your point of view. I'm not accusing you personally of anything at all (I don't know where you got off thinking I thought you thought you were better than me...never crossed my mind) and I do not necessarily agree with everything I said in my original post. My post was more of a general prod to get you guys for religion to be more direct and thorough in your points, which is exacerbated by the fact that it's harder to find empirical data supporting miracles than it is to find empirical data supporting what we call the laws of physics. It's just the nature of the beast.


I'm not in this argument. I'm merely a springboard. So yes, in that way you guys (namely ChemicalFizz) responded exactly how I wanted you to.

[Dwood]

And they were directed at mine.

@Dwood: the point of my post was to get you guys to actually spell out your reasoning instead of just trying to point people in the general direction of your reasoning;


Then ChemicalFizz was a much better response than mine.



You are trying to throw a bone and have people draw their own conclusion based on where that bone lands;


Not really.... I wasn't trying to point it in the general direction... You're trying to redirect the argument into territory which also works when it comes to arguing in front of others: Make it seem as though you have up-handed someone and knew what you were doing all along.



it doesn't work and only makes people roll their eyes at your points because you didn't back it up with anything substantial.


Substantial in this case is relative. My mistake was mentioning that I have deeper beliefs on the subject that won't get mentioned to those who I don't think are serious on the subject.



Giving people the runaround is not going to help them see things from your point of view. I'm not accusing you personally of anything at all


I admit, you deem it a runaround, however for others, my answer may have been a valid response.



(I don't know where you got off thinking I thought you thought you were better than me...never crossed my mind) and I do not necessarily agree with everything I said in my original post.




That's what I want to see; instead of just shouting "hurr durr my view is better"

This is where I got that from- Your post didn't verify any points you were trying to make (devil's advocate or otherwise) to me.... just make you seem sadistic (right word?)



My post was more of a general prod to get you guys for religion to be more direct and thorough in your points, which is exacerbated by the fact that it's harder to find empirical data supporting miracles than it is to find empirical data supporting what we call the laws of physics. It's just the nature of the beast.


Then don't act like a jerk in the follow-up.