Protest + Riot - Student Fees!

[Limited]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11726822

There have been clashes between demonstrators and police in London, as students and lecturers protest against plans to treble tuition fees and cut university funding in England.

Protesters have broken into the building housing the Conservative Party headquarters in Westminster. They have set fire to placards outside.
Live Video: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Thousands-Of-Students-Protest-In-London-Against-Tuition-Fees-And-Smash-Windows-And-Start-Fires/Article/201011215798223?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15798223_Thousands_Of_Students_Protest _In_London_Against_Tuition_Fees_And_Smash_Windows_ And_Start_Fires_

Although I don't like people getting injured, the 1 million people marched to protest the war and it did nothing. Now there is a riot going on I think the government will seriously consider saying no to the vote.

They've stormed the Tory HQ building, they're setting fires on the floors of the building. They're on the roof, just saw some complete twat just throw a fire extinguisher being thrown down into the crowd of protestors and the police officers, madness, its about a 10 story building if that hit anyone they could have been killed.

Things are getting real serious and real dangerous.

[=sw=warlord]

Sounds like the student's are actually getting their word out.
It's been discussed for years but each time it was put back for obvious reasons.

[paladin]

Budget cuts. In 4 years my girlfriends tuition raised 230% at a public university. her school lost $230 million dollars in public funds over the course of 2 years.

[=sw=warlord]

Budget cuts.

It's a kind of double edged sword, on the one hand you save money for the short term but in the long run you're damaging the chances of people getting their foot in the door for higher paid jobs which ends up cutting of the money that would otherwise have been gained through working taxes.

[Limited]

Bump, more riots..These were really bad ones too, check out these pictures.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/12/london_tuition_fee_protest.html

[Hotrod]

Let's be honest here, who in their right mind wants to have to pay 3x more money to go to uni? Like damn, if that were to happen to me, I'd be paying a quarter of a million dollars...then again, I'm in Canada and I'm not too sure how much uni costs in England.

[Limited]

Let's be honest here, who in their right mind wants to have to pay 3x more money to go to uni? Like damn, if that were to happen to me, I'd be paying a quarter of a million dollars...then again, I'm in Canada and I'm not too sure how much uni costs in England.
Well our rates are considerably lower than US and Canada. The law thats past allows universities to charge up to £9,000 a year, which is $14,221. Typically courses are 3 years long.

The problem is, the courses are not getting 3 times better. They may improve slightly because they have a larger budget, yet I bet alot of the money goes to the government anyways. It is putting people off going because they will come out of it with a huge debt (you can get a loan for the first degree you take).

Alot of people over here say education shouldn't be a privilege, it should be a right. If you want to go, you should be able to go. Okay places like Oxford and Cambridge you have to be very talented, yet other places will allow mostly anyone.

[Timo]

Damn that's insane, an average year (8 to 10 papers) of uni here for an NZ resident costs around $6,500NZD, which is $3,000 pounds. I can see why people are rioting ._.

[Limited]

Also, they are completely removing EMA, which basically means if your family earns under so much a year, if you go to college (highschool) you get £60 a week to help with costs of stuff like food/petrol. They did a study and it was cutting the money from a ton of people that has said they just cannot afford to go to college. So not only does it affect higher education (University) it also affects people wanting a diploma.

Oh yeah, also a kid got hit on the head by a police men using a paton. He now has brain damage and I believe is fighting for his life.

[paladin]

Theyre rioting because they want a free education. I have to work 30hrs a week to go to school. Yet I can still afford (not the most expensive) to go to a nice private institution. They need to get over the whole "i deserve everything for free" attitude. The only thing students should riot over is the cost of text books. Theres no reason why I need to pay $230 for a book ill use for 15 weeks, and when I sell it back to the same people they give me $25, then resell it for $200 'used'.

e: Not to tout anyone or what ever, but $14/yr is nothing for school (a ,little high for public, but not really)... my aunt over thanks giving was saying my cousins total cost for 4 years was well over $200,000

as for this:


Oh yeah, also a kid got hit on the head by a police men using a paton. He now has brain damage and I believe is fighting for his life.

I dont feel an ounce of pity for him/her. Theres absolutely no reason why protests need to escalate to violence, and Im sure the bludgeoning wasnt unprovoked.

[Dwood]

I agree with Paladin. 14k a year is a lot, but come back to me when it's more than you plan on making in a year when you graduate.

[Timo]

There aren't any private Universities here, they're all public. Paying $200,000 for an education just seems downright retarded. How is that cost justified? Got damn, the international fees here are far cheaper than that :||


e:Or is the whole thing about the name of the institution meaning more than the actual education true?

[Dwood]

e:Or is the whole thing about the name of the institution meaning more than the actual education true?

For anything that isn't related to business running/management it is. They don't care if you come from Havard Biz School, if you don't perform and perform well, you don't have any future with a company.

It's also ridiculous that you guys don't have any 'private' universities... With private, it means you can pick what schools you go to and they don't all charge the same cost. Because of that, I could go to a community college paying 2500 a semester, grab a 2-year degree, get a good job which earns more than 7.25 an hour, and pay my way to two more years @ another private uni for 4000 a semester. Granted, it would be a no-name college but a bachelors degree is a bachelor's degree. It opens doors.

[Timo]

bleh, all universities (there are around 6 iirc) here are heavily government funded, but you can pick what uni to go to, what courses you do, etc. I guess the definition of a public/private uni differs from here and there. International students don't get subsidized from the govt. and can pay up to three times the cost in fees.

For around 50k NZD (all in a govt owned interest free loan) including all living expenses I can get a worldwide recognized/accredited engineering degree. The thought of spending 5 or 6 times that amount just to get a well paid job just seems downright silly.

We have polytechs here which I guess is the equivalent of community college, which allow you to get a degree on the cheap.

[sleepy1212]

almost tripling tuition in one year means a lot of seniors aren't going to graduate next year.

[Limited]

almost tripling tuition in one year means a lot of seniors aren't going to graduate next year.
The fee changes only apply to new students to higher education, people who are already on a course are not affected.


Theyre rioting because they want a free education. I have to work 30hrs a week to go to school. Yet I can still afford (not the most expensive) to go to a nice private institution. They need to get over the whole "i deserve everything for free" attitude. The only thing students should riot over is the cost of text books. Theres no reason why I need to pay $230 for a book ill use for 15 weeks, and when I sell it back to the same people they give me $25, then resell it for $200 'used'.
First off, how exactly do you work 30 hours a week AND fit the time to go to full time education? 168 hours a week, say half of that is spend usually sleeping / drinking. 48 hours is Sat/Sunday so you can't go into Uni on those days. That leaves you 36 hours to both work and go to university full time.

Secondly, they arent demanding free education, okay some are saying education should be free but realistically we understand thats not a viable option. The students protesting are just asking that the fees be a reasonable amount of money that the majority of people can afford. Also the costs I'm saying is literally just the cost of the tuition, I also took out a loan of same amount as fees for living costs, food and accommodation costs and even then I needed help paying for it.

I know in USA a lot of people can get grants and scholarships, that very rarely happens in England, grants are only like an additional small amount of money that does not need to be paid back. Also majority of people here have to take out a loan to pay for it all. We don't do 'college fund' trusts, where parents put the money aside for the future, as I know alot of Americans do.

[Dwood]

Don't go to school. Buy the books, and learn on your own time. Want a job in tech or art? Companies don't care about degrees. They care about your performance and portfolio. Work a year and put the money in savings. If you can't hold that money back from your beer needs then should you really even be going?

I'm surprised we haven't had that "anti-culture" movement that says "forget you, I can do just as good as a college grad and I didn't go." yet.

[paladin]

First off, how exactly do you work 30 hours a week AND fit the time to go to full time education? 168 hours a week, say half of that is spend usually sleeping / drinking. 48 hours is Sat/Sunday so you can't go into Uni on those days. That leaves you 36 hours to both work and go to university full time.

I work 30 hours a week and currently enrolled taking 17 credits. Its called being a fucking college student. I spend 8-14 hours a day at my school if im not working. I sleep MAYBE 5 hours a night if im lucky. Monday thru Thurday I dont leave my campus until at least 1230. And on weekends I work 12-14 hrs a day, out side, in the fucking rain so I can afford to eat, let alone pay my fucking tuition. It makes me sick watching a bunch of selfish babies crying out because society has taught them that everything is free and doesn't come at a cost. I literally get a sickening feeling in my stomach watching them riots that have become of this. Whats next? it sure isn't going to stop at education. Next they'll want a government check after they graduate because they slacked off in school and cant get a job. Its not going to stop because of pathetic ideologues preaching social justice, "its the rich people fault", and the idea of "they have it, why cant I".

Oh, and in America, we work and go to school on Saturdays and Sundays. When the weekend rolls around the magic switch doesn't flip and all of a sudden life comes to a halt.

Secondly, they arent demanding free education, okay some are saying education should be free but realistically we understand thats not a viable option. The students protesting are just asking that the fees be a reasonable amount of money that the majority of people can afford. Also the costs I'm saying is literally just the cost of the tuition, I also took out a loan of same amount as fees for living costs, food and accommodation costs and even then I needed help paying for it.

IF YOU HAVE EVER WORKED A DAY IN YOUR LIFE YOU WOULD KNOW NOTHING IS FREE AND THAT YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY WORK AND PUT FORTH EFFORT. DRIVE THAT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING THICK-ASS SKULL.

I know in USA a lot of people can get grants and scholarships, that very rarely happens in England, grants are only like an additional small amount of money that does not need to be paid back. Also majority of people here have to take out a loan to pay for it all. We don't do 'college fund' trusts, where parents put the money aside for the future, as I know alot of Americans do.

Care to take a look at my FAFSA? I am eligible for a $550 unsubsidized Sanford Loan. That covers roughly, oh 2.5% of my yearly tuition. And as for my "college fund", i worked since I was 15 and was the sole provider of the funding. By the time I graduated high school i had just over $23,000. My moms a high school teacher. I make more per hour than her. Ive never seen a cent from either of my parents for my tuition, my rent, for food, for gas, for insurance, let alone from the government.

Don't fucking sit there and try justify anything they are doing or sell it short. Its complete bullshit. And get a fucking job.


I guess its asking a little much of me to ask someone that has had everything handed to him all his life to understand what it actually mean to work for their education, or anything at that matter.

e: i now open the floor for your unreasonable and inexcusable rebuke and for the Official Paladin Pity Party '10

[Limited]

Don't go to school. Buy the books, and learn on your own time. Want a job in tech or art? Companies don't care about degrees. They care about your performance and portfolio. Work a year and put the money in savings. If you can't hold that money back from your beer needs then should you really even be going?
Like I said, UK is alot different to USA. Over here companies want to know people can work to a high standard, the degrees prove that. The job I have now required a relevant degree, clearly if I didn't have it I wouldnt even be considered. We've had this discussion before about whether or not you need a degree, right now that is not the point.

Also 'go find a job', that would be all fine and dandy if the US stupid banks hadn't fucked up and go us in this incredible financial mess. Right now finding a job is extremely hard over here, and I assume its the same in USA. Some people say "cant afford it? Go get 2 jobs!", they have little grasp on what reality is like, its near to impossible to even get a single job.

Paladin, commendable work you doing there, truly. Personally I didnt even realise USA had school lessons on a Saturday and Sunday, over here its illegal too, due to work labour laws.

Paladin you seem to have forgotten England is one of the most expensive places to live. America is a lot lower down in that list, products are cheaper, taxes are cheaper, bills are cheaper.

[paladin]

on a Saturday and Sunday, over here its illegal too, due to work labour laws.

This is way Europe is in Chaos.

[=sw=warlord]

This is way Europe is in Chaos.
Not really.
Europe is in chaos because of more than just work labour laws.
Partly because bank's decided to take matters into their own hands and begin acting like sponges and partly because the flow of money isn't exactly the fastest river at the moment.
For someone who is supposedly so successful, you are extremely ignorant of statutes outside of your pond.

[Dwood]

First, limited, I didn't even bother reading after the 2nd paragraph because it's just another "theres nothing I can do about it" statement that i'm sick of hearing people cry about.


Like I said, UK is alot different to USA. Over here companies want to know people can work to a high standard, the degrees prove that. The job I have now required a relevant degree, clearly if I didn't have it I wouldnt even be considered. We've had this discussion before about whether or not you need a degree, right now that is not the point.


Where I come from, having a large portfolio that shows you can do your job better than others is worth a thousand times more than your degree. I could go into a company and get a job spot on if I had a good portfolio.

[thehoodedsmack]

Where I come from, having a large portfolio that shows you can do your job better than others is worth a thousand times more than your degree. I could go into a company and get a job spot on if I had a good portfolio.

That would be correct, for a job where creative talent is the deciding factor. In the other 90% of jobs out there, a degree is extremely helpful. Management wants to know that you are capable of devoting at least three or four years of your time and effort towards something you don't really enjoy doing. The degree states that the employee is a naturalized worker-bee, ready for monotony and the daily grinding.

[paladin]

For someone who is supposedly so successful, you are extremely ignorant of statutes outside of your pond.

When have I ever said I was successful. I would hardly say im hanging in there.... The difference is, when you actually have to work for something, you appreciate the out come infinitely more. Im not going to look at my BFA as something to put on a resume. To me, its a symbol of the sacrifices i've made over the past 4 years.

[Warsaw]

Also 'go find a job', that would be all fine and dandy if the US stupid banks hadn't fucked up and go us in this incredible financial mess.
.


"Who's the dummy now?"

While I agree that US banks are retarded as all get out, who's fault is it for investing in them? It's the classic example of of "Who's the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him."

Don't pin it all on the US banks, blame your own countrymen for investing too heavily in them as well. It is, after all, a global economy. :downs:

E: cost of living might also not be so high if the UK would do something about the pound. Contrary to popular belief, having a currency worth more than everybody else's is not always a good thing. Crudely put, lower value currency means things cost less to manufacture and export for you, meaning that its cheaper for everybody to buy your country's products, meaning you profit.

[Llama Juice]

My dad was able to support me through college, paying for my living expenses and tuition. My 5 roommates weren't so lucky. Now they all are paying off loans and such, but it's all doable. They all have jobs where they can pay for their rent + food + loans and still afford to live very comfortably. The one guy with the biggest loans has a better job, just so he can pay off the loans and such, but he just can't really go outside and do stuff with us that often.

That being said, Tuition at my college was something like $70,000 for the two years of college, plus another $28,000ish in living expenses while I was there. I say all this because my roommates are able to pay off the loans they had to take out during that time. Yea, they'll be in debt for a while, but it's a price you gotta pay if you want something.

When my dad asked me what college I was going to I said that I was thinking about joining the army so that I could pay my way through college. He wouldn't have it and instead said that he'd pay for it for me. I appreciate that he could do that for me so much and I don't take that for granted at all. I say that because I generally try to keep it somewhat under wraps that my father is successful because I know that his success != my success, and that it's hard to come across as appreciative and not sound like I'm flaunting.

I say all this because I know people are afraid of the loans and such, but it's difficult to sympathize with those students that are rioting because they don't want to deal with the loans. Well, it's hard to take them seriously when nearly every one I know is either dealing with the loans or working near full time alongside college to pay for everything.

[Limited]

I'd like to clear a few things up.

The riots are a small minority of the protests, and the majority of rioters are not actually students, they are anarchists just looking for an excuse to cause criminal damage, cite hate to the police and be generally anti-social. I do not condon the riots, however there is a part of me that knows sometimes you need to get their attention in a more direct way, case in point..1 million people marched in London showing they wanted the war ended, government didn't do anything about it.

The vast majority of the people you see in the pictures and videos are legitimate peaceful protesters, ranging from students, parents, college and university lecturers.

Like I said before, the university tuition fees are only one aspect of the new law, they are completely removing EMA, which is the Education Maintenance Allowance. The EMA is aimed at low income families, and people in poverty.

I understand there are alot of parties involved in the financial crisis, the reason I soley mentioned it was because Paladin was starting a whole "pfft UK needs to grow some smalls" mentality, I wanted to remind him that the primary reason the world is in a financial whirlwind was due to the US and their idiotic policies. The banks loaned too much money out to people who had no possible way of paying it back.

You also should know that the government is cutting spending on sport and health classes in school, for some stupid reason, I don't know why they cant make cuts in other areas.

Dwood...screw it your Dwood, there is no point replying as you wouldnt even be able to conjure up a reasonably intelligent reply.

[paladin]

The banks loaned too much money out to people who had no possible way of paying it back.

Guys I make $43,00 a year and just bought $2,000,000 mansion....

Yeah its partially the banks fault, but come on, you have to be pretty dumb to think you can afford a $7500/month mortage on >$50,000 annual income. People need to have some common sense, but society has drilled it into peoples heads that they can have anything they want. We are an anit-delayed gratification generation.

Keep pointing the finger at the US. See how far that gets you in life.

fake e: I want to trade make the term "Bush's fault" so every time the Obama Administration uses it I get a dollar. I'd be a sodding billionaire...

[Warsaw]

Guys I make $43,00 a year and just bought $2,000,000 mansion....
fake e: I want to trade make the term "Bush's fault" so every time the Obama Administration uses it I get a dollar. I'd be a sodding billionaire...

Might want to trademark "It's Obama's fault" while you're at it. It's just as popular as the other one.

[Dwood]

Might want to trademark "It's Obama's fault" while you're at it. It's just as popular as the other one.

Not quite. It'll get there in about 1-2 years once all the insurance and tax hikes kick in. Good idea though.

[Warsaw]

Clearly you haven't seen Yahoo or Youtube comments recently.

Fake E: I'm trademarking the word "change."

[Dwood]

Clearly you haven't seen Yahoo or Youtube comments recently.

Fake E: I'm trademarking the word "change."

I'm talking about when people start making money off it like they did with Bush. People started bashing Bush about 1-2 years before the press picked it up and turned it into revenue.

[=sw=warlord]

I'm talking about when people start making money off it like they did with Bush. People started bashing Bush about 1-2 years before the press picked it up and turned it into revenue.
There were people bashing Obama before he was even inaugurated.
I know that I never bought what he promised, I mean every politician, EVERY single one will make promises they cannot keep or will bend the rules just to get votes.
And yet, there were so many people who I spoke to at the time who were skipping heart beats over the thought of Baracks promises.

[paladin]

Obama is a Wall Street puppet just like Bush was.