Calgary Police Adopt AR15 Style Rifles, Citizens Think It's To Much

[Cortexian]

So for the past year the Calgary Police (where I live) have slowly started to phase out shotguns in favor of Colt C8A2 Assault Rifles, basically upgraded M4 rifles. I personally Just need to vent a little bit on some of the stupid-fuck arguments I've been seeing from people who are against this move, specifically the following:


"If the civilians in this country aren't allowed to own these firearms, then why do the Police need to adopt them?"It's true that a law abiding citizen in Canada cannot legally purchase any kind of firearm similar to an assault rifle, here's a basic rundown on the requirements for a firearm to be "Non-Restricted", the most commonly available firearms purchasable by civilians in Canada:
• Overall firearm length must be 26"
• Barrel length must be 18.5"
• Semi-Automatic Firearms may not have more than a total of 5 rounds of ammunition in the gun (4 in the magazine, 1 in the chamber)
• Cannot have any kind of fully-automatic firing mode

Some firearms that meet these requirements are still placed in the Restricted or Prohibited categories of firearms. Restricted firearms can be obtained and used by civilians at ranges for sport shooting but not hunting, the laws regarding them are stricter than Non-Restricted firearms. Prohibited firearms cannot be legally obtained by civilians unless they have been "grandfathered" or handed down from generation to generation.

Now, my argument to the above complaint is pretty simple, if you're naive enough to believe that criminals intending to use a firearm in a crime get them legitimately and follow the procedures to get a Non-Restricted or Restricted firearm then you need to get educated. Criminals don't care about the god damn firearm classification of a weapon their going to use, they use whatever they can get, and they CAN get Prohibited-class firearms. Not only can they get more powerful and dangerous firearms than Police issue handguns, but they can get body armor, which brings me to my next point.

Most body armor will stop a handgun or shotgun round to the vital organs, Police are trained to fire on center-of-mass, meaning the exact area that body armor covers. If Police only have a handgun and they run into a criminal wearing body armor they need to try and take a head or limb shot to disable the criminal. This is extremely hard to do with a handgun that only has an effective aiming distance of about 40-50 yards if you're a GOOD SHOT UNDER STRESS. Not only that, but a shot at that range with a handgun has a high chance of missing, which means the Police officer is now liable for that stray bullet. What if that bullet hits a bystander?

Next up, lets assume the same situation as the above paragraph only the Police now have a shotgun as well. 00 Buck shotguns shells and 12 Gauge slugs are just as useless against body armor, the only chance to take down the target is with a head or limb shot. 00 Buck shells spread out in a cone shape as they fly, meaning the chance of a shot missing goes up drastically. Slugs are only one round but they have the same problem as everything else we've talked about so far, they're fairly inaccurate at range.

Lets bring a Colt C8A2 Assault Rifle to the mix, these fire a .223 caliber (5.56mm) bullet that splits apart on impact from a much longer and much more accurate barrel. What does this mean? It means that the round is still useless against body armor but extremely accurate at a distance double or triple that of a handgun or shotgun. The fact that the bullet splits apart on impact means that it will not "over-penetrate" and create a liability for the Police officer firing the round.


Take a moment to consider the pros and cons of the C8A2 against handguns and shotguns:

Pros:
• More accurate.
• Longer range.
• No bullet over-penetration.
• Better chance to take down a criminal in body armor with minimal risk to the Officer firing the shot.

Cons:
• Looks scary (please note that this is a Pro if you're a criminal and it's pointed in your direction).
• Cannot be concealed like a handgun (in situations where the C8A2 will be used, this is irrelevant).

Now the last part of the argument I see I can relate to. If the Police are getting these, why can't civilians? As a firearms enthusiast I'd love to own an assault rifle, they're great fun to fire and relatively inexpensive until you start adding accessories and such. However there are MANY other alternatives that you CAN own. Some are even Non-Restricted so you can used them for hunting. Here's a list of some:
Hecker & Koch SL8
Robinson Armament XCR
IWI TAR-21 (Tavor)

In some cases, the assault rifles listed above are BETTER than a C8A2 and a civilian can buy them with the easiest firearms license you can legally obtain. Sure, they're expensive as balls but that's the price you pay for getting something that's either under-the-radar or borderline illegal.

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Here's another argument I keep seeing, which I have a much shorter explanation for. If you'd like to know the exact reasoning behind

"These are 'Military' rifles, they have no place in the hands of a civilian Police force unless the Police plan to make war against the community!"Just because the Military uses something does NOT mean that it is THEIRS and it's only use is making war. The Military uses many different tools to do their job, some of those tools are shovels, some are whistles, some are even protective body armor to keep them safe. Our Police Forces wear body armor, does this mean they're making war on the civilian population? No, it means they want a better chance to get home and see their loved ones one more time after being put into a hostile situation.

The C8A2 is just another tool that will allow our Police forces to do their jobs faster, safer, and with less risk to the public. If you're against adding tools like this to our protectors inventory, you're a fool.

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So, what is your opinion on the Calgary Police stocking up it's armory with assault rifles? The total cost of the program, including training and ammunition is only around $350,000. There will be approximately 120 C8A2's purchased initially (about 15 per Police district in the city) and they will then be evaluated by the officers trained to use them to determine if they should phase out shotguns as a general-issue firearm.

Please note, Calgary already has a very well established Tactical Team(s) that are equipped with all the gadgets and guns they want or need to take on the most violent situation. These new rifles are to be issued to regular Police and not our Tactical, SWAT style officers.

[thehoodedsmack]

Obviously not every police officer is going to be armed with one of these, and obviously those who are aren't going to be carrying it around slung over their shoulder 24/7. Sounds like a solid plan to me. You never know what you're going to run into on a call, so having the ability to use, or easily call in, heavier firepower when a dangerous situation presents itself, without having to mobilize a whole SWAT team, sounds like a good idea.

[paladin]

Every county should have some sort of swat or heavy weapons available. See: The Massacre of the Israeli Olympic Team, 1972 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre)

German police were underpowered due to post-WWII weapons restrictions. Assault Rifles > handguns

[Warsaw]

Are the weapons the Calgary police force is getting fully automatic-capable as well? If so, those should only be given to SWAT-type units otherwise its an unnecessary allocation of resources. Semi-automatic, then I think every Interceptor should have at least one in the trunk.

[Cortexian]

I know the tactical team(s) already have C8A2 with fully-automatic firing modes, but they also have everything from MP5's to corner-shots. I have a feeling these new issue C8A2's are only semi-automatic, but it's possible that they're going to be full.

That said, most military and LE training on AR's is all about semi-automatic firing. Fully-automatic bursts and sprays have limited uses.


Ontario RCMP who are assigned to the Canadian Parliament buildings have MP5 sub-machine guns in their armories for when the SHTF, I think it's good that our cops have a bit more firepower as well for those situations.

[ExAm]

Calgary Police Adopt A PUPPY

discuss.

But really, what was the reasoning behind the decision, other than "they're better guns"? I'd like to know if there has been a rash of instances which called for such a weapon, or if they're just using them for the fear factor. Assault rifles are for when you need to get some major killing done, not shoot one guy who held up a bank. I'd question whether the money for those weapons was best spent on the guns and not something else. Basically what Warsaw said. Overkill for the purposes of a civilian police department, barring SWAT raids.

[Cortexian]

Calgary has some pretty bad gang activity, there's at least one large shootout every 6 months in certain areas of the city.

However I'd say that having a more accurate firearm, with a much larger magazine capacity, and rounds that don't over-penetrate is reason enough to have these replace the shotguns. Shotguns are little more than rapid-breaching tools when placed into an armory that also offers handguns and assault rifles.

I really don't understand the reasoning behind ever issuing Law Enforcement shotguns, most of the time they're issued 00 Buck and slugs. Both of those types of ammunition are almost useless against body armor, they're just area-of-effect weapon systems with a huge intimidation factor.

[paladin]

The squad cars here that have shot guns have non-lethal ammunition

[Cortexian]

There's no such thing, there's only less-lethal ammunition... If I fire rubber BB's into your gut from point blank range you're still gonna die without medical attention. I've seen and heard reports of this happening with all the different types of ammunition described below and more.

The only plus side to shotguns is the wide variety of less-lethal ammunition available for them, gas, fin-stabilized rubber slugs, beanbags, etc... Our Police officers wear tasers on them all the time, in addition to their handguns so I don't see a need to carry a shotgun with less-lethal ammunition in addition to a taser. However, since we already have a huge stockpile of shotguns they might as well throw some in the trunk loaded up cruiser-safe with less-lethal ammunition if we have a stockpile of that as well.

If you're under the minimum engagement distance for ANY less-lethal ammunition, you might as well just load up with Dragon's Breath (White Phosphorus) shotgun shells and fire them at your criminals. It would definitely have a bit of intimidation factor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EePcpmWDNiI

[ExAm]

I hear those shells ruin shotgun barrels

[Warsaw]

I want those shells as a Bad Company 2 shotgun upgrade. :v:

As for the slugs, well, not all slugs are simple slugs. There are quite a few sabot rounds that actually can be accurate at range and can penetrate simple soft body armour.

[Cortexian]

I hear those shells ruin shotgun barrels
Nope.

[Donut]

if theres been gang violence and shootouts occur on a 6 month basis, then i cannot see why they shouldnt do this. its not even like theyre going nuts either. 120 of these weapons and a total of only 350,000 dollars (is that canadian dollars btw?) for the program seems more than reasonable to ensure the safety of people living in the area, especially considering some of the guns gang members get their hands on.

fake E: i was not aware that "dragons breath" was anything but a made up thing in blackops. that video just brightened my day :iamafag:

[TVTyrant]

As for the slugs, well, not all slugs are simple slugs. There are quite a few sabot rounds that actually can be accurate at range and can penetrate simple soft body armour.

This is the truth, but the problem with sabot shells is they require a rifled barrel in order to use, and most police shotguns have a full/extra full choke which puts the pellets into a tight-ish pattern. This allows them to put most of the shot into a 5 inch area, which makes the pellets transfer their energy into a target. A slug is only slightly smaller in its diameter than the shotgun barrel, and since the choke decreases the diameter of the barrel, the slug would destroy the gun. The AR-15 is a great choice for police work. A 223 can barely kill a fucking deer. Its less dangerous to bystanders than the standard issue .357 mags and .40 S&W pistols most police are issued. Issuing a cabine is a MORE responsible choice for police work imo than issuing the shotguns, especially if they are semi-auto. And if the bullets are hollow-points, they won' even hoot through a 3 inch board correctly (ive tried it).

[paladin]

^^ I like my 62 grain M855 Penetrators for my .223 ^o^

My dad had some 79 grain FMJs that shot trough a 7/16" steel plate, could probably do more

[sleepy1212]

I like that cheap russian ammo, makes the water bottles explode :woop:

[paladin]

yeah, i bought some surplus russian made .223 and only about 2/3 fired. Its almsot not worth it when you can get a box of a 1000 loose .223 fro Lake city for 319

[Warsaw]

This is the truth, but the problem with sabot shells is they require a rifled barrel in order to use, and most police shotguns have a full/extra full choke which puts the pellets into a tight-ish pattern. This allows them to put most of the shot into a 5 inch area, which makes the pellets transfer their energy into a target. A slug is only slightly smaller in its diameter than the shotgun barrel, and since the choke decreases the diameter of the barrel, the slug would destroy the gun. The AR-15 is a great choice for police work. A 223 can barely kill a fucking deer. Its less dangerous to bystanders than the standard issue .357 mags and .40 S&W pistols most police are issued. Issuing a cabine is a MORE responsible choice for police work imo than issuing the shotguns, especially if they are semi-auto. And if the bullets are hollow-points, they won' even hoot through a 3 inch board correctly (ive tried it).


Oh, I agree that the AR-15 is excellent for police work. I was just pointing the sabots out to show that shotguns aren't totally ineffective as Freelancer suggested. With an adjustable/removable choke, it could work in a pinch. I still think cruisers should all have an AR-15 AND a shotgun in the trunk with at least three magazines for the AR and 8 rounds of shot and slug each.

Fake E: Semi-auto AR-15, mind you. Leave the automatics to SWAT.

[TVTyrant]

The problem with the sabot is that the barrel on th shotgun has to be rifled to work correctly. The other problem is that you would have to design a sabot meant to penetrate. Hornady SST, Rems sabots, and Winchester' slugs are all meant to expand which is bad if your shooting at cars or people with armor on. Now, they would still crush a man's sternum or break his limbs with proper hits, but that's beside the point :D

[Warsaw]

They could design a fin-stabilised penetrator sabot slug. Then you wouldn't need the rifling, which means the shotgun can remain capable of firing shot. I smell market opportunities here.

[sleepy1212]

yeah, i bought some surplus russian made .223 and only about 2/3 fired. Its almsot not worth it when you can get a box of a 1000 loose .223 fro Lake city for 319

never had that problem but I'm using a different brand, wolf-something. it's mostly for storing up.


They could design a fin-stabilised penetrator sabot slug. Then you wouldn't need the rifling, which means the shotgun can remain capable of firing shot. I smell market opportunities here.

i'[m pretty sure without the spin the sabot wouldn't separate properly. some of the new brennekes have a stabilizing wad so something along those lines would work. then again, why not just teach them how to swap barrels. it's not hard and can be done in a few minutes.

[Cortexian]

TVTyrant, most Police shotguns are fixed open chokes that allow them to switch to slugs when they need. At least the ones here are.

Warsaw, I never said shotguns were useless. They're a great weapon system for shooting different kinds of ammunition, but when Police are already rocking handguns (Glock .40's here) a shotgun isn't really any more effective.

Just clearing up those two things.

[Warsaw]

Sabot halves form an air scoop on the front. It will separate just fine due to the amount of air being forced into the frontal scoop. Case in point: M1A2 Abrahms MBT: it's a smoothbore 120mm cannon that fires fin-stabilised sabot rounds.

@Freelancer: you implied they were useless at range and aginst body armour while the AR-15s are not. I was merely saying that a shotgun CAN be configured very rapidly to be effective at range and against armour. A handgun cannot without risking damage to the weapon. Of course the AR-15s are better, I just wanted to play devil's advocate with the shotgun.

[TVTyrant]

From what I understand about the weapons issued to our police (who all have AR-15 carbines), their shotguns are equipped with an extra full choke system for making longer range shots and focusing patterns better. They also use longer barrels than your typical tac modl because Oregon has a much more wide open setting. Lots of 30 yard tree lines and such.

My question with the slugs is why? Thats alot of effort into development when it would be much simpler to buy a batch of M4A4 styled carbines. Plus, Im not sure if you can replicate the way the Abrams fires that Sabot. For fuck's sake it's going like 5000 fps. It is an astonishingly powerful weapon that I don't think its results can be successfully replicated in a 10000 max PSI shotgun shell.

[Warsaw]

Ugh, I'm not saying we should use slugs over AR-15s (they are NOT M4s...maybe SWAT has M4s, but troopers do not), I'm just saying that in a pinch it CAN be used. Hell, I'd take the AR over slugs in a firefight just because when lead starts flying, I want to be able to place my shots reliably, and I can do that with an AR-15.

On the other issue, if I had the resources, I'd like to test the theory. Sabot rounds only in rifled shotguns is retarded, because a rifled shotgun is no longer a shotgun at all. Hell, make a rifled sabot case that discards itself after it leaves the barrel and lets the round go.