Middle east unrest.

[=sw=warlord]

I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned this as of yet.
What started out as a fruit and veg seller setting themselves on fire has now resulted in several nations up in revolt attempting to oust various leaders.
Egypt has been successful (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Egypt-Millions-Of-Egyptians-Rally-To-Celebrate-President-Hosni-Mubaraks-Fall-From-Power-A-Week-Ago/Article/201102315936373?lid=ARTICLE_15936373_Egypt:Million sOfEgyptiansRallyToCelebratePresidentHosniMubaraks FallFromPowerAWeekAgo&lpos=searchresults), Zimbabwa has had attempts to plot (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Zimbabwean-Activists-Charge-With-Treason-For-Plotting-Egypt-Style-Protests-Against-Mugabe/Article/201102415939885?lpos=World_News_Second_Home_Page_A rticle_Teaser_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15939885_Zimbabwean_Activists_Charge_W ith_Treason_For_Plotting_Egypt-Style_Protests_Against_Mugabe) over throwing mugabe.
Bahrain, Ivory Coast and Yemen are all following suit as well. (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Middle-East-Round-Up-How-Other-Countries-Are-Coping-As-Libya-Descends-Into-Civil-War/Article/201102415939953?lpos=World_News_Second_World_News_ Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15939953_Middle_East_Round-Up:_How_Other_Countries_Are_Coping_As_Libya_Descen ds_Into_Civil_War)
Libya is currently under complete turmoil and there are evacuations going on, Gaddafi seems to be losing his grip and even his own son has joined the protesters. (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-Colonel-Gaddafi-Makes-State-Television-Speech-As-Fighting-Continues/Article/201102415939952?lid=ARTICLE_15939952_Libya:Colonel GaddafiMakesStateTelevisionSpeechAsFightingContinu es&lpos=searchresults)
The situation seem's like it might have the momentum to carry on for a fair bit longer and for anyone who has any interests in World news, This should be the number one topic to keep tabs on.

List of nations under trouble. (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Interactive-Graphics/middleeast)
Gaddafi isolated. (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-Colonel-Gaddafi-Makes-State-Television-Speech-As-Fighting-Continues/Article/201102415939952?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15939952_Libya:_Colonel_Gaddafi_Makes_ State_Television_Speech_As_Fighting_Continues)

[Patrickssj6]

I just don't get why you call it "nations under trouble".

[=sw=warlord]

I just don't get why you call it "nations under trouble".

Would you prefer me to change it to; "Nations currently having a nice friendly little tea party with their chums"?

[Patrickssj6]

No because both give your subjective opinion about it.

How about just simply, "countries affected" because I am very happy about these events.

[TVTyrant]

Your happy that Bahrain, who have been nothing but an ally to all western nations, could have its government overthrown by a bunch of religious fanatics bent on reuniting the Persian empire? That's awesome bro.

[Bodzilla]

how the fuck did you possibly get that from whats happening.

hell if we where best buds with china would you accept Tienanmen square.


jesus i dunno about you people sometimes.

[TVTyrant]

Bahrain is a different situation. Everywhere else I totally support the people of those countries in rebuilding their governments. It was bound to happen. The people who are in unrest in Bahrain are not lookin for democracy. They are looking to remove a system that provides free hospitals and schooling and replace it with a government that will only bring violence to the region. I'm not saying that the government is right either. The way they treat the Shia is definitely wrong, but they are a stable, mostly sane government. Egypt, Libya, Yemen, especially Zimbabwa, really need to completely change their govs. But I do not believe Bahrain needs to completely shift power to a group of people who are extremely fanatical.

BTW you are right. I would not accept tienanmen even if they were our best buds.

[Patrickssj6]

They don't care what you believe and you should accept that. Even if this "extremely fanatical" group is just a minority (which I am very sure it isn't, same with the Nazis), it is their right to determine a government because it has to reflect the public, not your western believes.

[DarkHalo003]

They don't care what you believe and you should accept that. Even if this "extremely fanatical" group is just a minority (which I am very sure it isn't, same with the Nazis), it is their right to determine a government because it has to reflect the public, not your western believes.
I see what you mean; that's the essence of democracy - having the people choose their government. However, the government normally represents the majority of people (excuse the current situations in other countries) and that means they must protect the majority interest of the people. What I'm trying to say is, just because a bunch of people begin protesting doesn't mean that they have the right/freedom/insert to do so immediately and that what they're protesting for is justified. Sometimes it takes a sturdy government to fight a stubborn protesting. Now Bahrain's military striking people down isn't wanted; I hate that they used force, but growing hysteria causes people to think about crazy, crazy things. Revolution isn't always a good thing and sometimes the opinions/desires for a government change are spur-of-the-moment/momentary opinions/desires. I don't know the whole case involving Bahrain, but if it's anything like what I described above, then there's reason to carefully decide who to side with, especially considering how a regime change could affect the country and other countries.

On the flip side, the majority isn't always right. If you have a majority of idiots who don't understand what's best for a country and a minority of intelligent people who know what's best for the country AND its citizens, who would you rather be the leaders/deciding the leaders? This example is what helps me justify the electoral college and why I support it so much; kind of like how a parent knows what's better for its child, an intelligent minority will know what's better for their establishment and for the majority of morons. Just thought I'd share that considering we're talking about something remotely similar.

[TVTyrant]

They don't care what you believe and you should accept that. Even if this "extremely fanatical" group is just a minority (which I am very sure it isn't, same with the Nazis), it is their right to determine a government because it has to reflect the public, not your western believes.
Massive edit to avoid infraction:
No, it is not their right to have a mobocracy that will force a middle class minority out of their country. I have a very close friend at school who is from Bahrain. He is spending spring break at my house, because he can't go home. His family is preparing an emergency plan if they are forced out. I get what you are saying. But this is not a good thing. It is going to only promote further unrest and conflict between Shia and Sunni, which is what the fight there is about. They should reform and make a democratic government for sure. But it should have the same parameters as the American constitution or any good European one, and take the power away from the majority and put it into balance. Yes, this is part of my western beliefs. So sorry that I believe in them and am not a "worldly accepting person who would accept the rights of the majority over the balance of government". If I sound emotional, I am. There are some damn good people I'm sure on both sides. But Bahrain is going to be a fucking war zone, not a peaceful protest.

[sleepy1212]

It's going to take a long time before we see the results of these "revolutions" but I have the feeling, 3 years from now when the Supreme Emperor of All That Is Holy And Sandy is in charge, everyone will forget all their told-you-so's.

[Patrickssj6]

Massive edit to avoid infraction:
No, it is not their right to have a mobocracy that will force a middle class minority out of their country. I have a very close friend at school who is from Bahrain. He is spending spring break at my house, because he can't go home. His family is preparing an emergency plan if they are forced out. I get what you are saying. But this is not a good thing. It is going to only promote further unrest and conflict between Shia and Sunni, which is what the fight there is about. They should reform and make a democratic government for sure. But it should have the same parameters as the American constitution or any good European one, and take the power away from the majority and put it into balance. Yes, this is part of my western beliefs. So sorry that I believe in them and am not a "worldly accepting person who would accept the rights of the majority over the balance of government". If I sound emotional, I am. There are some damn good people I'm sure on both sides. But Bahrain is going to be a fucking war zone, not a peaceful protest.

I understand what you mean and I agree heavily that a religious group is not the best way, but sometimes it is necesary for the better. I'll take WW2 as an example: In my opinion it is a misassumption that the Nazis overthrew the German public and had them closed in. Even though they weren't Nazis themselves, the majority of the people were ready for war after post WW1. The war was necessary to clear the minds of the people that afterwards finally realized what they have really done.

This is basically the same thing in many countries there. The difference is the Christan influences that have heavily exploited that part of the world and now all these events are just basically an echo. The problem here is that America has put itself in a very difficult situation with the muslim world which are the rightful "owners" of those countries.

It is probably going to be a warzone but I do not get that point since every country, even yours, was one in the past before everything could establish.

[PenGuin1362]

Viva la revolution!

...kinda

[TVTyrant]

Pats this is going to be more than just war for them. This is going to be straight genocide against the former ruling minority. Yes I am aware that the Nazis did not "steal away the country". I am a history major. They came to power out of a situation that was so desperate in the early 1930s that most bad times look pathetic.
You are right that the west (especially Britain not America) have soiled a lot of the political feelings in the middle east. But is it right to let atrocities happen? That's what I don't get about what you are saying.
As far as America being in a tough political situation, the only thing we can do is either abandon our aid programs or just keep throwing money in their faces incessantly. Alas we no longer really have the funds to keep that up. We should probably open the gates to whatever refugees choose to come here and abandon our stupid ideal of a world that makes sense.
E: LOL Penguin + rep... Oh god damnit!

[=sw=warlord]

You are right that the west (especially Britain not America) have soiled a lot of the political feelings in the middle east.

I'm sorry but could you possibly empathize what you mean by this?
I seem to remember Britain getting involved with Iraq after your government asked us to back you up, Not the other way around.

[TVTyrant]

They sowed the seeds during and after the first world war. The Balfour declaration which promised Israel to the Jews, at the same time as they the McMahon-Husein correspondence which promised the same place to the Arabs. Neither ever happened. Instead the British empire tried to colonize the region. The whole Mid-East was going to be carved up between France and Britain in the Sykes Picot agreement. They failed miserably, but they tried. The British Mandate for Palestine, which was another failure and continued to bring the Mid-East to hate the West. And where was the US at this point? We were so pissed we started becoming isolationists. That's not even mentioning their "mandate" for Mesopotamia, which built the state of Iraq which is a huge blunder since it pushes three groups of so far incompatible peoples together within its borders, not even to mention the fact that the Iraqis were so angered they held a mass revolution within a year of the state's establishment. But you know, only current events mean anything. It couldn't be that they lump us ALL into a group as assholes who fuck them over at any turn.

I don't mean to say the US is innocent. Iraq was the biggest blunder in our relatively short history. It helped breed the anti-western sentiment that is held today in much of the Mid-East. It was stupid to begin with, and was simply based on a lie. We had an insanely foolish leader, and its going to show up for the next 20 years. But it is not the initial cause. This has been going on for the better part of a century.

[=sw=warlord]

The reason I asked you to empathize your stance is more common than is generally perceived I hear people from across the poind start screaming foul about Iraq and forget event's that predate Iraq.
I appreciate that you actually had the foresight to look beyond the immediate history though.

[TVTyrant]

As stated earlier I'm a history major. Its kind of my "thing". Britain has been behaving well since the Suez Crisis, and since then the US has take their place as the "International Empire of Douchebaggery".

[Dwood]

As stated earlier I'm a history major. Its kind of my "thing". Britain has been behaving well since the Suez Crisis, and since then the US has take their place as the "International Empire of Douchebaggery".

Someone's gotta do it. If it wasn't us it would be someone else. Edit: And quite frankly I'd rather have it be us than a country where one leader has absolute rule.

[=sw=warlord]

It looks like Gaddafi is fucked in so many ways even a brothel of gypsy whores would have trouble finding enough holes.
Fears of a humanitarian crisis are mounting as violence in Libya forces thousands of refugees to flee - and world leaders step up military plans for the country (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-Libya-Exodus-Sparks-Refugee-Crisis/Article/201102415942404?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15942404_Libya:_Libya_Exodus_Sparks_Re fugee_Crisis)

The president of Libya's newly-formed National Council has told Sky News that if Tripoli does not liberate itself then the rebel army will take it by force.
The former justice minister is respected within the country for trying to expand human rights in Libya.
He was the first minister to resign from the government when troops fired on protesters. (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-Leader-Of-New-National-Council-Of-Libya-Warns-Rebels-Will-Take-Tripoli-By-Force-If-Necessary/Article/201102415942113?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15942113_Libya:_Leader_Of_New_National _Council_Of_Libya_Warns_Rebels_Will_Take_Tripoli_B y_Force_If_Necessary)

[Cortexian]

Why can't we all get along?

[Warsaw]

ARE WAY OR THE HI-WAY! :v:

We can't get along because we all believe we are right, and in most cases that belief is governed by complete self-interest. Nobody has yet found a way to use enlightened self-interest to forge a lasting peace.

[Siliconmaster]

UN OKs No-Fly Zone for Libya:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42124388/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

It's about time.

[=sw=warlord]

A little bit late to the party don't you think?
Gaddafi's been bombing his people for how long now?

[sleepy1212]

It's all about the process...priorities man, that's what's important. :cop:

[Warsaw]

U.S. also backed the no-fly zone proposal. See, but now Gadhafi's trying to say he's opening talks with the rebels because he knows the U.N. is about to actually do its job for real...

[TeeKup]

Considering that we have a naval task force in the area and France is all for fucking anyone's shit up.

[Cortexian]

LOL France fucking shit up (haha)

[TeeKup]

I said they were all for it, whether they have the ability or not is another question.

[Siliconmaster]

I seriously don't know why the French jokes are so persistent. I mean, sure, they were occupied in World War II, and they don't do a huge lot globally, but you could very easily start making Portugal jokes or some equally modern-day-useless country. At least France is pushing for action in Libya- that's more outspokenness on the issue than from the US or pretty much anywhere else for that matter. I give them some respect for that alone.

[CN3089]

Anybody who makes "haha, the french military! lol" jokes is either a huge ignoramus or is deliberately trolling: the French could impose the no fly zone themselves if they wanted to.

[TVTyrant]

France gets laughed at because they are one of the biggest groups who say anti-American/Imperialistic things and then either do nothing or have massive problems (the riots of 05, people puting out the olympic torch in 08, etc.). Name something in recent years they have done successfully. Thats why its funny. Its not the French people it's their government.

[CN3089]

Name something in recent years they have done successfully.

They just got the Security Council to authorize a no fly zone over Libya, maybe you've heard of that?

[Cortexian]

So the U.S. and UK just launched over 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles and the French have been fucking shit up in the no fly zone airspace.

[Bodzilla]

???

[Cortexian]

$990,000,000~ worth of cruise missiles just for Libya.

Might as well have burnt the money judging by Gaddafi's stance to "die a martyr".

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201132002236603156.html

[TVTyrant]

They just got the Security Council to authorize a no fly zone over Libya, maybe you've heard of that?
Something prior to what they did two days ago? Seriously what point are you trying to prove?

As far as it being a waste of money... Yeah it pretty much was. 1 billion holy fucking shit.

[Sanctus]

CN3089 if we still had rep I'd plus you right now, lol. So is the U.S. taking the reigns in this "Operation: Odyssey Dawn" or are we just
providing support?

[TeeKup]

Support I do believe.

[Warsaw]

France is leading the charge. We are just lending a hand, which is fine considering we are already tied up in Afghanistan. Let's let somebody else to the "world policing" for a change.

[Cortexian]

Assisting by picking up the bill mostly.

1 Billion in cruise missiles :fail:

[Sanctus]

Assisting by picking up the bill mostly.

1 Billion in cruise missiles :fail:
Yeah seriously.
"Let's just proved support this time guys, it'll be too costly to lead the charge. Time to fire off one billion dollars!"

[=sw=warlord]

Yeah seriously.
"Let's just proved support this time guys, it'll be too costly to lead the charge. Time to fire off one billion dollars!"

One billion is a teaspoon in the ocean compared to the how ever many trillions the USA is in debt for.

[Patrickssj6]

lol @ France. Underdeveloped country needs oil.

French ships have a glass bottom so they can see the rest of their fleet. Along with their tanks which have 1 gear for forward and 5 for reverse.

[CN3089]

lol @ France. Underdeveloped country needs oil.

French ships have a glass bottom so they can see the rest of their fleet. Along with their tanks which have 1 gear for forward and 5 for reverse.

Hey cool thanks for this incredibly stupid and inaccurate description of France and its military! It's a great contribution to this thread!

[Aerowyn]

A lot of people are conflicted. On one hand, this guy is a complete nutter and needs to be taken out of there. By the same token, people complain about "oh great, another war for America, more money down the drain."

What I think the US should do is say to the European community, "Thanks, but no thanks on the war part guys." Retreat our military efforts, but chip in on the HUMANITARIAN portion of it. Offer the rebels food, water, medical care, ammunition, even. This way we don't look like those gung-ho war-loving Americans but we're still helping the efforts.

[Warsaw]

No, we had to take a military stance in this case. We helped put Gadhafi there, so we have to own up to the mistake and help remove him. This is actually one of the few things the current administration has gotten right.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah, because anyone else owns up to there mistakes. Name a country who has done something bad and then tried to fix it?

[Patrickssj6]

Hey cool thanks for this incredibly stupid and inaccurate description of France and its military! It's a great contribution to this thread!

Same to you, this is serious thread you know :iamafag:

[DarkHalo003]

Yeah, because anyone else owns up to there mistakes. Name a country who has done something bad and then tried to fix it?
Doesn't mean the U.S. shouldn't. Just because everyone else doesn't or does do something doesn't mean you should or shouldn't. If the U.S. is truly doing this to make amends for their mistakes, then maybe the high-ups in the government are finally deciding to be adults now.

[Warsaw]

Did you hear Obama's speech on the matter? It made it abundantly clear that the U.S. has no idea what it's doing over in Libya.

[sleepy1212]

I didn't take it that way. I think he was acting like he had a plan all along and everything went according to it when weeks ago he said we were staying out of it. goddamn Oceanian double-think. Probably only changed his mind to preserve european business interests.

[Warsaw]

It was a very "PC" speech. Being "PC" to me is a tell-tale sign of indecisiveness. He's the man in charge. He doesn't have to be PC. He should be doing what's right, not what looks good.

[Patrickssj6]

Main discussion right now should be on the weapon supply. I'm not very fond of it and the UN isn't either.

After all these years the world should have learned that suppling unstable countries with weapons, backfires.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah... Tell that to the Russians and Chinese. I'm sure they'll be apt to listen, just like when they sold Uranium to Iran.

[Warsaw]

Main discussion right now should be on the weapon supply. I'm not very fond of it and the UN isn't either.

After all these years the world should have learned that suppling unstable countries with weapons, backfires.

I agree. We can help them, but when we do:

1.) Do not give them guns to shoot back at us 10 years from now, and

2.) Make sure we stick around long enough to maintain a positive influence in the area. If the U.S. had stayed in Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out, we might not be in the same mess we are now.

3.) Don't try and impose a puppet government...seriously, good things come to you through your good deeds. Don't be greedy.

[DarkHalo003]

I agree, but for weapons we should give them the soon-to-be-obsolete M16.

[TVTyrant]

Or, you know, nothing. Since there are plenty of AKs and G3s and FALs that other countries have already sold to them. The idea that the United States should sell them guns makes me sick. The fact we sell guns to any third world country makes me sick.

[Abdurahman]

what the rebels need are more anti-tank weapons ,most preferably the long range guided type. that's what they most desperately need now. they have enough small arms, those don't do anything against tanks

[Warsaw]

Yes, and then they can use said anti-armour weapons to shoot down our helicopters and blow up our tanks 10-20 years from now. Or they could dismantle them and use them as makeshift mines to kill innocent civilians.

I'm not saying the Libyans are terrorists. I'm saying that there are terrorist groups that permeate the Middle East and if we give weapons to anybody over there, they find their way into the wrong hands more easily than if the cells have to go through channels.

[TVTyrant]

We've tried dumping guns into the hands or rebel groups before. It backfired horribly and the result was the oppressive group known as the Taliban. Honestly, arming any group is a bad thing. We should not be selling automatic weapons to anyone. If we want to give them some rifles, give them some bloody .303s.

BTW, for those interested, Jon Stewart has some great stuff on Libya from last night:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/228158/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-tue-mar-29-2011?c=Talk-and-Interview#s-p1-so-i0
Hilarious.

[Bodzilla]

FUCK YOU HULU. go global already ffs.

[TVTyrant]

Bod, do you guys get the Daily Show in the Land of Aus? Other than Archer or other animated comedies, it has to be my very favorite show on TV.

[Bodzilla]

yeah we do, i just dont watch much TV

[TVTyrant]

Yeah I dont even watch it on TV. I do the Hulu. That really sucks that you guys dont get Hulu. What a ripoff.

[Abdurahman]

maybe you can use a US proxy or something? cause the daily show is an amazing show, and the colbert report is basicaly the second, more goofy half of the daily show lol

[Bodzilla]

we get both, it's just i dont watch much Tv