Drastic alteration of a game's focus

[Rainbow Dash]

Imagine for a minute that halo received a new patch. A new patch that made players fly, pistols fire tank rounds, and warthogs at lightning speed, while also making the netcode even worse.

The quality of the game would go right out the window and none of us would play it.

Luckily in halo this wouldn't really be possible, however with just about everyone nowadays having high speed internet connections, developers are now able to continue creating massive updates for their games and completely change the original product into something else with next to nothing the consumer can do about it.

Probably the most familiar example to anyone here would be tf2. A lot of us have stopped playing it because quite frankly, the unlocks are almost all shitty for the games gameplay, and it would seem that we (http://etf2l.org/forum/league/?recent=307757) are not alone (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80) in that opinion. Almost all of the European Team Fortress 2 League is in unanimous agreement that the game fucking blows for serious play now, and even SPUF has loads of threads about how shitty the game is.

Not only that, but take a look on tf2 forums everywhere, you have huge threads devoted just to trading and items.

Which usually outnumber the others by far.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3332789/misc/Rants/jesuschrist.jpg

The biggest forum here is trading, the second biggest is the one about the community creating shitty new guns and hats to be added to the game.

This should tip any sane person off that something is wrong, especially when the game's gameplay is as fucking FUCKED as it is.

We also have Company of Heroes, which was my favorite RTS up until about two years ago. If you asked just about any player after Tales of Valour was released, which added like, 8 new units or something, all of which were totally fucking broken. Either totally useless, or the closest you could get to an I win button.

Gamereplays had a balance section for CoH, and it was more or less discussing the same 5 "I win" units, there was quite literally an almost unanimous agreement that these units were ruining the game.

Well it turns out that the entire expansion was a money grab on Relic's part. The best part is though, that even people who didn't buy it still had to play against people with those units, they just couldn't use them themselves unless they bough ToV.

Finally, the PS3. There was a lot of controversy recently when a hacker attempted to restore a feature the PS3 originally shipped (and was advertised) with but was forcibly removed via a firmware update.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4021/4520562209_7d465f5db6.jpg

I'm sure there are other stories of game/console/whatever updates more or less ruining the product you bought by changing it into something entirely different, but since we don't seem to have any protective legal infrastructure to prevent this from happening we're pretty much at the corporation/developer/whatever's mercy.

So, what do we do?

[Rainbow Dash]

AMIT IS A JERK

:>

[Kornman00]

Hack the games to do our bidding? Hack Sony? Don't buy their games? Hack Sony? Create our own games? Hack Sony?

[Rainbow Dash]

None of those really solve the problem. In tf2's case we can still play vanilla + medic via a server item whitelist, the problem is that it's just so much effort to even get that going, when the game I bought 3 years ago I could just open it up, and play, without having to put up with the shit they added.

[Warsaw]

Hack the games to do our bidding? Hack Sony? Don't buy their games? Hack Sony? Create our own games? Hack Sony?

+rep

Similar story for Command and Conquer 3. The game was almost perfectly balanced out of the box. Then the patches started rolling out. First the Nod lost their rapid deployment capabilities, meaning they now have to slug it out with CGI players. Nod doesn't work well like that, since most of their units are not as well armoured. Then they nerfed air units for both sides for no apparent reason. This is all workable, though. The kicker is that while they nerfed the CGI and the Nod, they uber buffed the Scrin. The Scrin were already more powerful than both, but no, they had to go and make them even more lopsided. So no, Scrin are banned in most servers because you cannot win against a human Scrin player unless he is a total fuckwit.

[Rainbow Dash]

So it's a pretty common thing, the objective of this thread is to analyze the infrastructure, or lack there of to protect consumers from ending up in this predicament.

[Kornman00]

Kind of hard to initiate change when publishers have so much weight in this boxing ring of gameshit. Kind of like trying to bring about change in the gov't, when there are corporations with so much weight in that boxing ring of utterbullshit.

[Amit]

AMIT IS A JERK

:>

:) Sry, minimized the window half way through reading and went out for six hours lol.



+rep

Similar story for Command and Conquer 3. The game was almost perfectly balanced out of the box. Then the patches started rolling out. First the Nod lost their rapid deployment capabilities, meaning they now have to slug it out with CGI players. Nod doesn't work well like that, since most of their units are not as well armoured. Then they nerfed air units for both sides for no apparent reason. This is all workable, though. The kicker is that while they nerfed the CGI and the Nod, they uber buffed the Scrin. The Scrin were already more powerful than both, but no, they had to go and make them even more lopsided. So no, Scrin are banned in most servers because you cannot win against a human Scrin player unless he is a total fuckwit.

Don't you mean GDI?

[DarkHalo003]

Did Halo Wars ever get like this in Multiplayer modes? I'm asking because they went through an unbelievable amount of patches for the game on XBL.

[Warsaw]

:
Don't you mean GDI?

Yes. :saddowns:. It's been forever since I played the game for those very reasons, so I screwed up.

[Amit]

Christ, I've never played a C&C game before and I still know lol. Then again I always was fascinated by the GDI logos. Made a couple myself.

[Warsaw]

I played Dune more than I played C&C. I have all the original C&C games in the anthology package, but the box is still wrapped in its plastic. Dunno. I guess if you've played Dune and Dune 2000, you've played C&C since it's all identical. Serious. Even the units fill cookie-cutter roles and a lot of them have the same names.

[Rainbow Dash]

Also another thing I'd like to see discussed here is theory on how a system where developers would need approval before making any changes to the game would work.

More or less what I've got in mind is that anything beyond fixing bugs/exploits would require the approval of a group of heavily critical players, perhaps competitive, or just players who know something of game design, similar to this.

http://www.eve-csm.com/

[Warsaw]

Yes, but that's effectively what happened with Bungie between the Beta and release of Reach. Look how that turned out. Herpin' derpin' MLG profags got the game all fucked up sideways just like they wanted.

[ejburke]

I don't see how the Sony situation fits into the discussion. Hackers got bent out of shape because Other OS support was removed due to security concerns that had arisen. What they fail to recognize is that they're at war with the one company that TRIED to be their friend. Now there is no chance that any console from any company will natively support Linux ever again. Victory?

Personally, I thought the Sony brass were idiots to include the feature. I knew it was risky from a security standpoint and if their thought was, "Hey, if things go south, we can always turn off the feature." then they're bigger idiots than I thought. Nobody likes Indian-givers. And nobody likes self-entitled little twats who bite the one hand that even briefly considered feeding them. This was a situation where everyone came out as the asshole.

[=sw=warlord]

ejburke; The fact is that Sony sold their console as having certain features and as time went on features were removed without the owners consent.
One thing I've never liked from the get go was how microsoft completely redesigned the Xbox Dashboard.
The old Blade system actually looked like it was a games console with barely much advertising for thing's I cared little for.
now though the entire dashboard is one giant advertising page with no option for removing the useless extras.

[Rainbow Dash]

ejburke; The fact is that Sony sold their console as having certain features and as time went on features were removed without the owners consent.

Pretty much this. They changed what the owner had originally bought with no ability to revert it and removed what was easily a major feature for a lot of people.

[Donut]

from what i understand, gears of war 2 is a big offender too. i dont know all the specifics, but last i checked they were on the fourth "title update". what this means for somebody like me who doesnt play the game a whole lot is when i bought it near the release date, smoke grenades knocked you over. now over a year later, i pop the disk back in, download the update, and suddenly smoke grenades do jack shit. according to people on the epic games forums, there were a lot of other changes to other weapons too. it irritates me because i learn the quirks of a game, and then it changes completely. i almost have to learn how to play the game again when these updates roll out. although, i guess in GoW2's case, the changes were for balancing issues, for better or worse.

i cannot remember the name of the game for the life of me, but im pretty sure there was another game where an update a couple months in totally removed a few gametypes and weapons. does anyone else know which one it was? it may have been a pc game...

[Bodzilla]

well i agree with what you say, you cant go on the strength of numbers as the only way to facilitate or stop change in these products.

if we did that Terran would still be as OP as it was with the release of the game in Starcraft 2.
and the alliance would have even more ridiculous advantages over the Horde in WoW.

i think it's one of those things you've just got to hope and trust the developers make the right decision, and then vote with your feet if they dont. because for the most part either option is a guessing game :/

[n00b1n8R]

ITT: Vocal minorities complain like they're important.

TF2 is shit these days but there's nothing that can really be done besides modded servers.

[Rainbow Dash]

11:04 PM - SeL ♥: aight so
11:04 PM - SeL ♥: my thread
11:04 PM - SeL ♥: what I mean is
11:04 PM - SeL ♥: anything beyond bugfix changes
11:04 PM - SeL ♥: would require the approval of a group of people
11:04 PM - SeL ♥: preferably game designers in the community + comp players
11:04 PM - SeL ♥: all of whom would need to be highly critical
11:06 PM - SeL ♥: so they're not barred from making changes
[Muppets] Commodore: Bodzilla is now Away.
11:06 PM - SeL ♥: they just need to be agreed upon that they're good changes
11:06 PM - SeL ♥: that will benefit the game
11:06 PM - SeL ♥: and won't radicly change the focus

[Bodzilla]

off topic but, n00b sig....
LOL

[Rook]

Well, I don't know exactly what you mean by serious play but in L4D2 comp they have to remove so much of the content that was in the game by default on release via confogl/fresh. People could easily do the same in TF2 with some sort of sourcemod plugin. I'd say it's much less annoying to get one of those going in TF2 than L4D as well for a variety of reasons (pugwise vs scrim).

As for every other game without plugin capability just hope that devs don't fuck you in the ass lol.

[Dwood]

Kind of hard to initiate change when publishers have so much weight in this boxing ring of gameshit. Kind of like trying to bring about change in the gov't, when there are corporations with so much weight in that boxing ring of utterbullshit.
Because it's horribly OT:

I do have to say that, having had considerable family experience that it's not just the companies who are at fault, and it's an unfair assumption they are the reason the gvt is as it is. It's also the lobbyists and those who sue that are the main reason things don't get done (talking about focus groups like PETA, the NRA things like that).

My Dad is one of the top directors to a certain wildlife focus group that tried to get a certain species of wolf removed from the endangered species act and allow state management of those majestic animals, working with other very active people (gathered 60 signatures from senators + congressmen) on the subject, only to be shut down with a cookie-cutter act that got shoved into the budget bill by 2 senators and being told what we wanted could never be done in one bill. Then the group was told by the senators that what they did was progress. (Those 2 senators were lobbied heavily by some big sheep foundation I forget, and by the NRA)

This has jaded me (and my Dad) severely, and made me think that while there are corporations who dont want things done in gvt they aren't the main problem, imo it's the heads of those so-called non-profit focus groups and their lawyers. Some food for thought: The Lawyers who fight a lot of battles in court about those topics make 150+ an hour and are paid by the us gvt to sue the us gvt. I suppose I can give more info on the subject if you want, but PM me instead of continuing it here.


ejburke; The fact is that Sony sold their console as having certain features and as time went on features were removed without the owners consent.

Untrue. The update said something like: "If you install this update you can no longer use the 'Other OS' option" but if you don't update you may not access PSN. I've installed it on something like 3 Playstations, to say it was without consent was a lie.

People wanted to keep other OS but also access PSN. In other words people who stole the games and used them wanted to play on PSN with games they haven't bought. Those who used Other OS legit got the shaft but those who played with games that weren't bought got shut out.

But that doesn't really matter because the Root Key or whatever it's called was discovered.

[Kornman00]

Lobbyists and foundations don't appear out of thin air. They're backed by big business. Ergo, they're still the ones at fault.

[Dwood]

Lobbyists and foundations don't appear out of thin air. They're backed by big business. Ergo, they're still the ones at fault.

There are more sources of pushing a cause than big biz.

[n00b1n8R]

Sel, how would you suggest a company go about determining which members of its community go on this *quality assurance* panel? How do you ensure that it's not just a vocal minority comprising the majority of the panel? There's so many assumptions involved in your idea that it's ridiculous. You're basically saying "I'M MORE IMPORTANT THAN MOST OTHER USERS, IGNORE THEM OR YOU'RE A HORRIBLE DEV".

l2buisness


People wanted to keep other OS but also access PSN. In other words people who stole the games and used them wanted to play on PSN with games they haven't bought. Those who used Other OS legit got the shaft but those who played with games that weren't bought got shut out.

But that doesn't really matter because the Root Key or whatever it's called was discovered.
If just one paying customer gets shafted by a change, no ammount of pirate-fucking-over makes it justifiable.


off topic but, n00b sig....
LOL
inorite

[Pooky]

Since I have nothing to add as far as solutions to the problem, I'll just post one of my favorite examples of awful patches fucking up a great game

RVgpk6KMc44

[Warsaw]

There are more sources of pushing a cause than big biz.

But there are few sources more powerful than big business.

[Rainbow Dash]

Well, I don't know exactly what you mean by serious play but in L4D2 comp they have to remove so much of the content that was in the game by default on release via confogl/fresh. People could easily do the same in TF2 with some sort of sourcemod plugin. I'd say it's much less annoying to get one of those going in TF2 than L4D as well for a variety of reasons (pugwise vs scrim).

As for every other game without plugin capability just hope that devs don't fuck you in the ass lol.

Valve actually went and removed most of the abilities to use plugins to affect items (because they can be used to give players hats they don't have), and they also recently changed the whitelist so it could no longer affect hats and cosmetics, which was pretty much why I quit. We had to use these for 6v6 matches, which were enough of a pain to start, and actual pub play has pretty much been a waste of time since September.

From what I'm told half of any given server will have faggoty unusual hats, that's cool!.


Sel, how would you suggest a company go about determining which members of its community go on this *quality assurance* panel? How do you ensure that it's not just a vocal minority comprising the majority of the panel? There's so many assumptions involved in your idea that it's ridiculous. You're basically saying "I'M MORE IMPORTANT THAN MOST OTHER USERS, IGNORE THEM OR YOU'RE A HORRIBLE DEV".


Highly critical comp players, ie the people who care about the gameplay and game the most, and chances are, know what's best for it.

Though just some sort of legal protection against outright changing the game focus would be nice too, I mean at this point for tf2, almost all comp players, and a lot of pubbies alike think the game is a piece of shit lol.

[Rainbow Dash]

Untrue. The update said something like: "If you install this update you can no longer use the 'Other OS' option" but if you don't update you may not access PSN. I've installed it on something like 3 Playstations, to say it was without consent was a lie.

People wanted to keep other OS but also access PSN. In other words people who stole the games and used them wanted to play on PSN with games they haven't bought. Those who used Other OS legit got the shaft but those who played with games that weren't bought got shut out.


You may as well be arguing that since we could have set tf2 to not update automatically at the cost of not being able to play it at all that the changes they made were acceptable.

[Dwood]

You may as well be arguing that since we could have set tf2 to not update automatically at the cost of not being able to play it at all that the changes they made were acceptable.

The difference is that TF2 is an online-based game, many of the Playstation's main features do not require internet connection. That, and I'm only saying its false to suggest that the update was installed without user consent. Not arguing about whether or not it's acceptable.

[Pooky]

Highly critical comp players, ie the people who care about the gameplay and game the most, and chances are, know what's best for it.

Though just some sort of legal protection against outright changing the game focus would be nice too, I mean at this point for tf2, almost all comp players, and a lot of pubbies alike think the game is a piece of shit lol.

Yeah, I said this before to different people but I feel ripped off that TF2 isn't the game I paid for anymore. At least in JK2 you can manually downgrade the game to 1.02 and play it.

Wish I could just return my TF2 and get all my money back :|

[Warsaw]

I never bought TF2...

As a matter of fact, aside from HL2 (which I did buy), I got all the pieces of the Orange Box for free through gifting. I said I would never buy TF2 and I didn't. I play TF:C, tyvm.

[Pooky]

TFC is fine for what it is but I never got into it that much. I can't stand playing HL1 engine multiplayer, the hit detection just feels off somehow compared to modern games.

[Warsaw]

Same about HL1 games. Hence why I'm never seen playing it on Steam...:haw:. I'm all about the BF2.