Senate Votes To Let Military Detain Americans Indefinitely

[Kornman00]

Thought about putting this in the Debate forum, but I couldn't honestly see any person (American at least) supporting this act.

Senate Votes To Let Military Detain Americans Indefinitely, White House Threatens Veto (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/29/senate-votes-to-let-military-detain-americans-indefinitely_n_1119473.html)



The Senate voted Tuesday to keep a controversial provision to let the military detain terrorism suspects on U.S. soil and hold them indefinitely without trial -- prompting White House officials to reissue a veto threat.

The measure, part of the massive National Defense Authorization Act, was also opposed by civil libertarians on the left and right. But 16 Democrats and an independent joined with Republicans to defeat an amendment by Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colo.) that would have killed the provision, voting it down with 61 against, and 37 for it.

"I'm very, very, concerned about having U.S. citizens sent to Guantanamo Bay for indefinite detention," said Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), one of the Senate's most conservative members.

Paul's top complaint is that a terrorism suspect would get just one hearing where the military could assert that the person is a suspected terrorist -- and then they could be locked up for life, without ever formally being charged. The only safety valve is a waiver from the secretary of defense.

<continues...>

Sign the petition (http://act.demandprogress.org/sign/ndaa/?akid=1053.1563298.khOJhU) for Obama to veto this bullshit.

[TVTyrant]

Fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[TeeKup]

Signed. It's been 10 years. The initial terrorist scare shouldn't be causing legislation like this so far down the road. Especially not something as ridiculous as this.

[Donut]

so like, the other day i walk into an apartment lobby to visit my friend at his aunt's place, and some old guy starts giving me shit and wont open the door to let me in because he doesnt believe me that im visiting people there, and eventually called the police on me (and no, i wasnt running my mouth on him either). i was also wearing my soviet ushanka and im sure that probably caused some stupid "red fear" reaction in the guy.

so youre telling me that under this act, theres a decent chance if the cops showed up, that i could be arrested and detained as a "suspect of terrorism" for an indefinite period of time, with no trial?

what the flying fuck
E: signed. hope somebody in there has enough of a brain to veto this.

[Sanctus]

I suddenly feel the urge to go to class wearing a red CCCP shirt and a white turban for the next week...
Signed.

2523

[Spartan094]

Time to break out my Soviet Ushanka, belt buckle, USSR shirt, and Soviet Flag to replace the current US one waving outside my house if this gets passed somehow. Signed.

[Pooky]

Signed the FUCK out of this. This is the most sickening thing to come out of the Senate in my lifetime.

[Warsaw]

Signed. I've actually been subscribed to Demand Progress for awhile now, starting with SOPA's original introduction.

Absolutely disgusting. I swear that, at this rate and in 20 years time, the USA is going to look awfully similar to Nazi Germany.

[king_nothing_]

Signed.


rghhz_t5POo

[DarkHalo003]

As soon as I read "without trial" I was like "yeah no fuck this." What was the Senate thinking? Maybe this could have flown back in 01-02, but now we all know differently. Seriously, like, wasn't the Red Scare enough of an historical hysteria to show what happens WHEN you you're suspicious of them?

[Bodzilla]

playing the senators video.

Pink floyds welcome to the machine plays in the back round.

welcome my son.
welcome
to the machine.

[neuro]

ahmeerhiihihiikhaaaaaaaaaa

[Patrickssj6]

10 years late

[Warsaw]

Better late than never!


:v:

[TVTyrant]

Better late than never!


:v:

:smithicide:
:suicide:

[Sanctus]

This Bill also declares the United States a "battleground" for all practical purposes. Which means the military at any time can search homes or commit "legitimate assassinations" against US citizens. Definitely gonna go buy that shirt and turban now

[DarkHalo003]

Isn't the Senate controlled by the Democrats? Why the hell would they want this anyways? This is more right wing than left wing....

[Warsaw]

Because the Democrats and the Republicans are actually the same damn thing? It's all a farce. They make a big show of being each other's opposite number and behind the scenes they partake in a large circle-jerk. The USA has a one-party system, they just put up two candidates to dupe the population into thinking that there is a choice.

[Tnnaas]

Good thing I have that one image (http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline10/082710/Deliver_Hope/MFDD_armed_screen.jpg) as my phone's wallpaper. I always whip it out at airports, train stations, and just about any other major transportation center.

#OccupyPotentialBombingLocations

[Warsaw]

Careful, the government can come and arrest you now, just for saying that!

[king_nothing_]

Which means the military at any time can [...] commit "legitimate assassinations" against US citizens.
They already have.



Because the Democrats and the Republicans are actually the same damn thing? It's all a farce. They make a big show of being each other's opposite number and behind the scenes they partake in a large circle-jerk. The USA has a one-party system, they just put up two candidates to dupe the population into thinking that there is a choice.
Exactly that.

[Cortexian]

http://www.modacity.net/forums/images/customavatars/avatar1051_10.gif (http://www.modacity.net/forums/member.php?1051-king_nothing_) (http://www.modacity.net/forums/member.php?1051-king_nothing_)

[TVTyrant]

http://www.modacity.net/forums/images/customavatars/avatar125_72.gif

[Jelly]

american military to detain pony fans indefinitely, pwned

[MXC]

Signed. We have more than enough bullshit already.

[Cortexian]

Good thing I'm not in America!!

All Pony fans will simply have to move to Canada.

[Kornman00]

Good thing I'm not in America!!
There's a app bill for that.

[TVTyrant]

Good thing the House hasn't passed this or I'd be very concerned.

Or they did and I'm very scared right now.

[Warsaw]

If it's in the Senate, then the House has already passed it. Only the House can introduce new legislation.

@Freelancer: except you have to deal with the shit-bag that is Harper...who would likely love to implement a similar policy.

[TVTyrant]

If it's in the Senate, then the House has already passed it. Only the House can introduce new legislation.

@#Freelancer: except you have to deal with the shit-bag that is Harper...who would likely love to implement a similar policy.
Fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[Donut]

ok wait why are we all wearing soviet stuff if this is like nazi germany? that thought just occurred to me and now im confused.

[Cortexian]

Harper is a brony.

[Warsaw]

And that is a good thing?


ok wait why are we all wearing soviet stuff if this is like nazi germany? that thought just occurred to me and now im confused.

Because the radical left and radical right are essentially the same thing as well. The point is that we are wearing things to troll the USA. Because fuck the USA.

[Donut]

Ah. i see. i thought it was a play on stalin killing off all those russians for the "greater good", which in parody makes me laugh and feel terrible at the same time.

[Kornman00]

On a related note:

The Pentagon Is Offering Free Military Hardware To Every Police Department In The US (http://www.businessinsider.com/program-1033-military-equipment-police-2011-12).

Be sure you read the entire article (and any supporting links). This has been going on since pre-9/11 (1997). A PD in Georgia, a state that doesn't even boarder say, Mexico (where you would normally think of battling wars on drugs and/or terrorism; both which are lol), has a fucking amphibious tank. Some fucking goof of a sheriff in S.C. named his machine-gun touting APC, "The Peacemaker".

The DoD *gives* this hardware away. Doesn't sell, but gives the hardware to states. Over 500$ mil worth of hardware in FY2011 alone.

I guess the Fed finally figured out that giving it all to countries we help "liberate" only bites us in the ass when we invade them later. So why not prepare for the invasion of America %-)?

[Warsaw]

Oh good grief...

[TeeKup]

So I heard this passed....with a majority vote.

Hey Timo, you and I just might be neighbors soon. As it seems New Zealand is one of the only countries that ISN'T amazingly retarded.

[Donut]

the bill passed in the senate fucking 93 - 7. source: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-711747

E: 93 - 7. what the FUCK.

[Timo]

So I heard this passed....with a majority vote.

Hey Timo, you and I just might be neighbors soon. As it seems New Zealand is one of the only countries that ISN'T amazingly retarded.

There's plenty of room down here!

[musicman888]

So these video(s) may interest you guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrXyLrTRXso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4aQJqzIe8o

Everything that is happening here is showing to add up to not being good. I am hoping secretly that this is all just over-hyped, but currently everything is pointing otherwise.

[jcap]

Signed. It's been 10 years. The initial terrorist scare shouldn't be causing legislation like this so far down the road. Especially not something as ridiculous as this.It's simple, really. You see,

The terrorists didn't succeed in taking our freedom...

Therefore, the US government is trying instead.

e: holy crap I didn't even realize this thread was 4 pages long

[=sw=warlord]

And with this bill passed, the terrorists have won.

[Spartan094]

Coulda sworn this wasn't 1942 and we weren't Japanese-Americans. Oh yeah they got shoved in interment camps and had no right to due process of any kind what so ever. This bill reminds me of that time.

[Kornman00]

http://www.modacity.net/forums/images/customavatars/avatar503_20.gif

wtf is that exactly anyway (http://www.modacity.net/forums/member.php?503-sw-warlord)

[Kornman00]

*sigh* (http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/wed-december-7-2011-ralph-fiennes), fucking Obama administration.

[Tnnaas]

It looks like I'm going to have to rid myself of food and weapons. There goes my preparations for the zombie apocolypse.

[p0lar_bear]

I'm a little afraid for my girlfriend and her daughter. We live literally next to Electric Boat and there's a navy base in our town; the place reeks of military. I've got nothing to hide, but I can't help but be paranoid.

[TVTyrant]

Did Obama sign it? Haven't heard the news...

[n00b1n8R]

How does the senate justify passing something like this?? Aren't they meant to protect civil rights? Why is the president in charge of blocking stupid inhumane crap?
I'm at a loss for how anybody anywhere could try to justify a law like this.

[p0lar_bear]

How does the senate justify passing something like this?? Aren't they meant to protect civil rights? Why is the president in charge of blocking stupid inhumane crap?
I'm at a loss for how anybody anywhere could try to justify a law like this.

The Occupy protesters are clearly a threat to all that is good and decent™.

Since corporate suits own what is good and decent™, their demands to stop hogging it is a severe threat! DEFCON 1!

[n00b1n8R]

DEFCON 5!

Glad you agree that there's no threat from a bunch of hippies :downs:

[king_nothing_]

Aren't they meant to protect civil rights?
lol!

[=sw=warlord]

Forget the hippies it's those damned liberal muppets with their anti corporate views trying to corrupt the American way of life!

[PopeAK49]

Yeah...The Supreme court will not let this pass. I don't see it happening at all. Our founding fathers are probably laughing at us in their graves.

[=sw=warlord]

Yeah...The Supreme court will not let this pass. I don't see it happening at all. Our founding fathers are probably laughing at us in their graves.
Psst, it already has passed.

[Warsaw]

the bill passed in the senate fucking 93 - 7. source: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-711747

E: 93 - 7. what the FUCK.

So if Obama actively vetoes it, they would likely just overturn with that kind of majority. He had better pocket that shit, so they don't get a chance to overrule.

@Warlord: yeah, but the Supreme Court can rule it unconstitutional if a case gets brought before them about it. That said, there won't be a case because the nature of the law prevents a case from even happening. They just drag you off and detain you with no rights. Load, lock, and watch your doors gentlemen, this is why we have the Second Amendment in these parts. I consider armed men poking around my house with weapons drawn to be a significant enough personal threat to warrant castle law.

[TVTyrant]

So if Obama actively vetoes it, they would likely just overturn with that kind of majority. He had better pocket that shit, so they don't get a chance to overrule.

@Warlord: yeah, but the Supreme Court can rule it unconstitutional if a case gets brought before them about it. That said, there won't be a case because the nature of the law prevents a case from even happening. They just drag you off and detain you with no rights. Load, lock, and watch your doors gentlemen, this is why we have the Second Amendment in these parts. I consider armed men poking around my house with weapons drawn to be a significant enough personal threat to warrant castle law.
Over ruling means fuck all if theyre running over ethics. Just look up Andrew Jackson.

[Warsaw]

True. In this case, they'd just start an amendment process. They certainly have the majority support to start. What we don't know is if state governments would spring to ratify it.

Like I said, keep your guns close, boys. This could get really ugly within a decade or two if they keep this pace up. If Occupy keeps up in one form or another, somebody is going to slip. On either side, doesn't matter.

[TVTyrant]

True. In this case, they'd just start an amendment process. They certainly have the majority support to start. What we don't know is if state governments would spring to ratify it.

Like I said, grab your guns, boys. This could get really ugly within a decade or two if they keep this pace up.
Good thing I'm buying a surplus Mauser and as much 8mm as I can find this summer :haw:

[PopeAK49]

@Warlord: yeah, but the Supreme Court can rule it unconstitutional if a case gets brought before them about it. That said, there won't be a case because the nature of the law prevents a case from even happening. They just drag you off and detain you with no rights.

Fuck, didn't think outside the box on that. If this is the case, I'm moving to fucking Canada.

[Warsaw]

Good thing I'm buying a surplus Mauser and as much 8mm as I can find this summer :haw:

Better to buy something that accepts cartridges that are less expensive/easier to find. Something in .308/7.62mm NATO, .223/5.56mm NATO, or 9mm. My Lee-Enfield is chambered in 7.62mm NATO. If there's an apocalypse, you might have a rough time scavenging. Though on the flip side, since nobody owns Mausers, you might be in luck.

@KingFisher: Canada won't be much better off, either. Besides, the US military could probably just give some BS excuse to the Canadian government and they'd get to waltz right in anyways.

[MXC]

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/sen-lindsey-graham-says-he-didnt-know-defense-bill-he-approved-lifts-military-ban


It gets worse. Some of these bastards didn't even READ IT.

But hey, the military can screw dolphins now.

[n00b1n8R]

http://io9.com/5448319/human+meets+dolphin-love-story-takes-you-where-avatar-wont

[Warsaw]

Congress: world-class circus act.

[p0lar_bear]

Glad you agree that there's no threat from a bunch of hippies :downs:
Screw you, I'm dyslexic today. Or something. (p.s., edited)


http://io9.com/5448319/human+meets+dolphin-love-story-takes-you-where-avatar-wont
dufe,
jegus chris
how HIGH do you even HAVE to BE to DO taht

[Kornman00]

Members of office should be required to take a test on things which they are voting on. To make sure they're mentally fit to perform their duty. And are doing their fucking job in general.

Get below a 90, bam, your ass is out of fucking office and you're hung in public. In fact, the hangings will be part of of a new reality TV show which everyone can watch. Donating to respected charities/organizations (ie, shit that isn't the Salvation Army, PETA, etc) will give you voting power in what outfit they should wear when hung. Want them in a cat suit? Donate now! Donate the most and get to be the one who drops the floor out from that mother fucker's feet!

Vote yes on Proposition Read or GTFO.

[Timo]

So these guys are voting on stuff that has an effect on over 300 million people, and they don't bother to read it? Sounds like a great job.

[Warsaw]

I mean, they did the same thing with the healthcare bill, which got all shit up by GOP compromises. It appears to be the standard operating procedure.

[Cortexian]

Hey, if enough people move out of the US then at least the people making up all this bullshit will have nothing to worry about.

Except each other. They'll get paranoid, kill each other off, then you can all move back.

Enjoy!

[Kornman00]

We can all move out, then nuke America. After a couple hundred years I'm sure the radiation will be tolerable and we can all move back.

In the mean time we can just crash on Canada's couch. OccupyFreelancersYard.

[Cortexian]

So long as you guys keep your stink outside I'm fine with that.

[Kornman00]

Don't you watch the news? Occupiers use nearby indoor facilities (ie, mcdonalds, starbucks) to keep the outside clean. Duh.

[TeeKup]

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/sen-lindsey-graham-says-he-didnt-know-defense-bill-he-approved-lifts-military-ban


It gets worse. Some of these bastards didn't even READ IT.

But hey, the military can screw dolphins now.

Are you fucking serious.


Fuck this country I'm leaving.

[Cortexian]

Another for the lawn.

Actually TeeK can go in the shed with the female occupiers.

[Tnnaas]

I'll hang out on the couch outside.

[Kornman00]

Actually TeeK can go in the shed with the female occupiers.
It's a trap!

Oh wait, nvm, it's just a freelancer

[Spartan094]

It's a trap!

Oh wait, nvm, it's just a freelancer
Nope, just chuck testa.

[TeeKup]

Another for the lawn.

Actually TeeK can go in the shed with the female occupiers.

Bitch I better have an open fire place and a nice couch.

[TVTyrant]

Bitch I better have an open fire place and a nice couch.http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/TVTyrant/Teek3.png

[TeeKup]

lol!

[Ryx]

Current state of the world: pizza is a vegetable, playing CoD is a war crime, and now congress can imprison people without trial.

We have waaay too much time on our hands.

[DarkHalo003]

Correction: the military can imprison people without trial, but it's the concept that matters.

Does this go to the White House?

[Donut]

wait what, where is the "cod is a warcrime" thing coming from?

[Ryx]

wait what, where is the "cod is a warcrime" thing coming from?well, it's red cross, but sorta the same thing.
source. (http://www.news.com.au/technology/gaming/six-hundred-million-gamers-could-be-war-criminals-red-cross-says/story-e6frfrt9-1226216184190)

[rossmum]

seriously doubt that obama will do shit because of a petition. he barely does shit as it is. big surprise, politicians lie, and after promising hope this and change that he's ended up doing a big fat wad of (almost) nothing when action is most needed. parties care more about their continued reign than they do anything else, including their leaders, so by extension the leaders will avoid doing anything radical because there's a good chance their party will have their scalp for it and undo it all anyway (australians would be very familiar with this by now).

western nations are all headed the way of police states. the us is going that way a little more slowly than the uk, australia, or most of europe, but let's not kid ourselves: we don't have any rights or fucking freedoms because the government will either waive them away with bullshit like this, or just ignore the law because fuck it, they're the government. of course the vast majority of the population either don't know or don't care, so nobody will actually do anything significant until it's too late. i guess it makes sense, nobody wants to jump the gun with these things, but seriously - if you give a single shit, don't just write to politicians, but write to the media, get your friends and family clued in, cause a stir. if everyone just sits here complaining on an internet forum about modding a 10-year-old game, nothing is really going to change. keep an eye on new laws, because they don't just axe everything in one fell swoop - they erode your rights away one by one, over a considerable period of time, because nobody notices or cares when a little bit here or there is removed. if you enacted all the bullshit introduced in the us over the last couple of years before 9/11, there's a pretty good chance there would have been some huge riots at the very least. but hey, everyone's a patriot and it's in the name of national security, so this shit slides. see: the uk and the obscene invasions of privacy and general rights that people no longer even bat an eyelid at. suggestions of cctv being installed within private homes? IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN! WHY DIDN'T WE HAVE THIS 20 YEARS AGO?

really, though, you'd all do well to remember that the interest of politicians and the interests of the population are absolutely different and the only time those fucking snakes will do anything is when it will get them either more power, or more security come next election.

feel free to call me insane or whatever, i've become extremely jaded over the past few years because quite frankly fuck anyone who thinks they can pull shit like this and not have to answer for it

[Kornman00]

ATTN Red Cross: it's a fucking video game. Make yourself useful and...do your job. You know, the job you have In Real Life (Rated M for mature).

[TeeKup]

Can we just have a video conference with their leaders, outlining why they're stupid and that they should get back to their real jobs instead of interfering with something they CLEARLY shouldn't have a say in?

[rossmum]

ATTN Red Cross: it's a fucking video game. Make yourself useful and...do your job. You know, the job you have In Real Life (Rated M for mature).
lol as if they have time to give a shit about the countless wars and genocides (read: actual war crimes!) going on around the world every day when there are VIRTUAL BAD GUYS to protect. remember when they tried like half of the serb military after bosnia? no, neither do i. funny that

western society is the sickest fucking joke, it owns

[Warsaw]

*Cue obligatory Farnsworth meme.*

[TeeKup]

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11942/12228827.jpg

[Tnnaas]

I like the part where they almost immediately dismissed allegations. Yeah, as soon as something goes public you've gotta take back what you said. Happens almost everywhere.

[Ryx]

So basically they're taking away all our freedoms that aren't specifically mentioned in the constitution and etc, under the excuse implied can be interpreted in multiple ways?

I think that is what rossmum is trying to say.

[rossmum]

So basically they're taking away all our freedoms that aren't specifically mentioned in the constitution and etc, under the excuse implied can be interpreted in multiple ways?

I think that is what rossmum is trying to say.
eventually they're going to go after the ones that are as well, people are getting apathetic and that's a slippery, slippery slope

[Warsaw]

Actually, the right to speedy and public trial is mentioned specifically in the U.S. Constitution. So yeah, they've already begun to go after the big ones.

[Tnnaas]

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin
Not sure how to follow this up, but yeah. THAT.

[Ryx]

here's a list of who voted what. as for the website, the idiot who wrote that should be locked up for reasons given in the above quote. List. (http://warisacrime.org/content/heres-how-your-senators-voted-udall-amendment-strip-out-war-and-imprisonment-power-grabs)

No senator on the "yes" list gets my vote next election. Even if they do defend personal liberty, they are just plain ignorant and thus unworthy if they voted for a bill like that.

[Tnnaas]

I actually had to re-read your first sentence to understand what you said. I get it now. Anyways, yes, those blind bastards shouldn't be allowed into the Senate ever again once their terms are up. Anyone, and I shall emphasize this again, ANYONE who believes that security for the nation overrides any citizen's most basic rights doesn't deserve to decide for their own children. Vasectomy, all of them. Clean up the gene pool a little bit.

[Donut]

i am lost now. what im gathering from this is this bill initially passed through the senate with 93 - 7 vote, and this new list, 37 - 61 - 2, is the vote for removing the military imprisonment from the bill?

please correct me if im wrong here.

[TVTyrant]

No one wants to vote against the military.

But only the fools who didnt read it wanted to leave that part of the bill in.

[Donut]

so the "yea" list are the senators that want to keep the military imprisonment part in, and the "nay" list are the ones who want to take it out now?

[TVTyrant]

so the "yea" list are the senators that want to keep the military imprisonment part in, and the "nay" list are the ones who want to take it out now?
Nay is people against taking out that part of the document, yay is for taking out that part.

[king_nothing_]

here's a list of who voted what. as for the website, the idiot who wrote that should be locked up for reasons given in the above quote. List. (http://warisacrime.org/content/heres-how-your-senators-voted-udall-amendment-strip-out-war-and-imprisonment-power-grabs)

No senator on the "yes" list gets my vote next election. Even if they do defend personal liberty, they are just plain ignorant and thus unworthy if they voted for a bill like that.
Uh, what?

[MXC]

So did this piece of shit that has destroyed 99% of my faith in Texas(Ron Paul being the only exception) politically pass or not?


Edit: Hey, post 555.

[=sw=warlord]

So did this piece of shit that has destroyed 99% of my faith in Texas(Ron Paul being the only exception) politically pass or not?


Edit: Hey, post 555.
It has passed.

[MXC]

Oh dear God.

[rossmum]

no big surprise, people are stupid

e/ also america needs to fuck off and mind its own business. yes, there are a lot of fucked up things happening in the world. guess what! if america didn't feel the need to stick its dick in literally everything purely for its own political or strategic gain, then a lot of those things would either not blow back on america when they go badly or they would not be happening today at all! this would also not even be a fucking issue!

just a reminder: america continues to back georgia to the hilt even after it was proven by the fucking neutral swiss that they got what was coming and russia, while heavy handed, was not wrong to go down and stomp them. america also shores up despotic regimes in various countries to this day, even though the cold war is supposedly over. basically what i'm saying is, america is a hugely irresponsible and backwards nation that should be kept as far away from global power as possible

[Ryx]

so the "yea" list are the senators that want to keep the military imprisonment part in, and the "nay" list are the ones who want to take it out now?Yep. I lost all hope when I saw both of my state's senators voted "yes" to keep the detainment/imprisonment part.

[rossmum]

my sleep cycle is all kinds of fucked up and i have had a shitty few days so my posts are probably bad and incoherent

basically my underlying point is this, america is a great country. it's really good there is a nation so big with such strong belief in freedom and personal liberty (although as we see here, those are being challenged and left largely undefended). america is the country you want on the news, at the un general assembly, in conferences, preaching about how we must stop injustice and urging those responsible to unfuck themselves.

they are not, however, the country you want enacting that. not by a long shot. the us has a long and depressing history of terrible decisions, bad ideas, and generally stupid political moves. let them be the spirit of world policing, not the police themselves. still not sure who you'd leave that job to, but certainly not the usa.

[king_nothing_]

so the "yea" list are the senators that want to keep the military imprisonment part in, and the "nay" list are the ones who want to take it out now?

Yep. I lost all hope when I saw both of my state's senators voted "yes" to keep the detainment/imprisonment part.
Uhh no, you both have it backwards. They were voting "yea" to remove the indefinite detention part (among other things) from the National Defense Authorization Act.

[rossmum]

oh, good. there are still reasonable people in the halls of power

[TVTyrant]

Uhh no, you both have it backwards. They were voting "yea" to remove the indefinite detention part (among other things) from the National Defense Authorization Act.
This.

[Kornman00]

So did this piece of shit that has destroyed 99% of my faith in Texas(Ron Paul being the only exception) politically pass or not?
Ron Paul isn't a Texas native. That twit, John Cornyn, is. I lost faith in that state a long, long time ago. I only wish it was in a galaxy far, far away :mech:

[MXC]

Ron Paul isn't a Texas native. That twit, John Cornyn, is. I lost faith in that state a long, long time ago. I only wish it was in a galaxy far, far away :mech:

He might not've been born here, but he lives here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

[Kornman00]

Hence why I said he isn't a native to Texas but Cornyn is...

[Patrickssj6]

durka dur

[MXC]

Hence why I said he isn't a native to Texas but Cornyn is...

My point is that there is at least one politician living in Texas who still has a brain.

[=sw=warlord]

one good egg in a basket is hardly any use when the rest are past their sell by date.

[Kornman00]

Ron Paul doesn't have a brain

Brains have a Ron Paul

[thehoodedsmack]

Happy New Year! It was passed into law and signed by Pres. Obama. Still has that indefinite detention of American Citizens ability, too.

[=sw=warlord]

I suppose it's a step up from that bill that allows the gov to assassinate any US citizen.

[Zeph]

Happy New Year! It was passed into law and signed by Pres. Obama. Still has that indefinite detention of American Citizens ability, too.

Still not sure where people are getting that whole indefinite detention thing. Anyone who reads the whole bill will know about the section that says the extent of the law can not interfere with any prior existing law (IE the Bill of Rights or statutes pertaining to how long you can be held without being charged for a crime).

If you're abducted by the military and held indefinitely, you'd just have to file a lawsuit against the country like you would before the bill was passed.

[Kornman00]

It was passed into law and signed by Pres. Obama. Still has that indefinite detention of American Citizens ability, too.
source.

[=sw=warlord]

sauce (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-signs-defense-bill-pledges-to-maintain-legal-rights-of-terror-suspects/2011/12/31/gIQATzbkSP_story.html)

[Bodzilla]

so glad to see change.

[DarkHalo003]

Awaiting V for Vendetta to strike our government with fear. Just saying.

[Kornman00]

"Use discretion". For what, the next 12 months? Then what? Can he vouch for the asshats who follow him, because he sure as hell isn't getting four more years. Fucking stupid twit needs to grow a backbone. And a pair of balls.

[Tnnaas]

Ron Paul 2012.

[Tnnaas]

Ron Paul 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKz9OeiI0g).

[t3h m00kz]

Ron Paul 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKz9OeiI0g).

.

[TVTyrant]

Fuck our lives.

[king_nothing_]

Ron Paul 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKz9OeiI0g).
Indeed.

Anyone here who supports him needs vote for him in the primary. Saying you'll vote for him if he gets the nomination is not enough. The primary is the hard part. It takes literally just a couple minutes to register Republican so you can vote for him (if your state has a closed primary, otherwise you don't have to register), and then you can switch back to whatever you want afterwards.

This is especially important if you live in one of the early states (Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Florida, Nevada).

Bit of a thread hijack, but whatever. This is important.

[Ryx]

Wait, what happened to Obama threatening to veto this bullshit and saying he'd never let it pass?

fuck corporate government.

[DarkHalo003]

Wait, what happened to Obama threatening to veto this bullshit and saying he'd never let it pass?

fuck corporate government.
I fail to see what corporations (besides military supplying ones) have to gain from this. It isn't Obama being bent over by corporations; it's a bunch of politicians appealing to the outraging side of voters (the people claiming to be conservative since liberal Obama didn't do jack shit to help our current situations) so that they'll get re-elected. Damn we really do need term limits for these Congressman don't we?

[TVTyrant]

I fail to see what corporations (besides military supplying ones) have to gain from this. It isn't Obama being bent over by corporations; it's a bunch of politicians appealing to the outraging side of voters (the people claiming to be conservative since liberal Obama didn't do jack shit to help our current situations) so that they'll get re-elected. Damn we really do need term limits for these Congressman don't we?
This. Its Bush style fear mongering/feeding.

[rossmum]

far be it from me to start a giant shitfight by making vague derisions but paul is an idiot with a few ideas that aren't altogether terrible and a fucking lot that are. also i doubt much would change. i don't have a particularly strong knowledge of how the us passes laws but if it's anything like here or the uk, the pres can't really do a whole lot on their own and even in situations where they can, they more usually won't.

america is constantly fucked in the arse by its own stupidly over-the-top adherence to capitalism and all that other dumb shit. corporations pay off politicians directly or indirectly, and as such the government serves them and not the country as a whole. of course the politicians will make their fiery speeches about whichever set of values they would like you to think they represent, but at the end of the day, nobody gives a shit because they're all having their pockets lined by corporations, religious sects, social cliques, or other groups with a common goal and a lot of money to throw at those in places of influence. a good fucking start would be cracking the fuck down on politicans and corporations alike, not small government and THE INVISIBLE HAND OF THE FREE MARKET WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING because it's the goddamn invisible hand of the fucking free market that has been causing the government to fuck the people. regulate the living piss out of corporations, fuck off political donations or heavily monitor them, force politicians to earn their votes by physically fucking going places and talking to people and making a difference instead of who can buy up the most airtime with which to sling mud during primetime tv.

christ capitalism is the goddamn worst thing ever. i don't get how people can see on the one hand that the government should not try and micromanage peoples' lives a la nanny state and yet think that corporations will somehow save us because THE FREE MARKET. it's like a broken record.

e


I fail to see what corporations (besides military supplying ones) have to gain from this. It isn't Obama being bent over by corporations; it's a bunch of politicians appealing to the outraging side of voters (the people claiming to be conservative since liberal Obama didn't do jack shit to help our current situations) so that they'll get re-elected. Damn we really do need term limits for these Congressman don't we?
do you have any fucking idea just how much defence is worth? seriously, do you?

e. again

of course i am exceptionally biased, and have been for a long time. i hate corporations, i hate church interference with government, i hate anyone trying to pay their way to having their little world view shoved on everyone else via laws. i think anarchy is fucking stupid, i think nanny states are fucking terrible, the government is there to stop people harming each other or forcing their world view onto others without solicitation and to provide good public transport, well trained and disciplined police, free healthcare and aid to those who need it at the expense of those who don't. considering pretty much every western nation is doing its best to become a nanny state (uk currently leading the race and has been for some time) and they're all rife with corruption and acting in the interests of the social elite and corporate giants rather than the population as a whole, i am clearly becoming more and more agitated with things and less and less likely to actually engage in a political debate where left and right may as well be the same goddamn thing for all it matters because we don't control shit.

i wonder if i'm on any watchlists yet, that'd be interesting. i don't go for the whole NWO ILLUMINATI MIND CONTROL thing but it's plain as day to me who calls the shots these days. wonder if "normal" people think i've gone from usual student activism to "insane" yet! isn't this fun

[TVTyrant]

far be it from me to start a giant shitfight by making vague derisions but paul is an idiot with a few ideas that aren't altogether terrible and a fucking lot that are. also i doubt much would change. i don't have a particularly strong knowledge of how the us passes laws but if it's anything like here or the uk, the pres can't really do a whole lot on their own and even in situations where they can, they more usually won't
Fucking finally. Im glad somebody finally fucking said this. I had given up hope in political talks on this site. Thank you, Ross.

[king_nothing_]

lol. One person makes an exceptionally unsophisticated rant riddled with ad hominem and about two dozen "fuck"s, and another high fives him.

There's a good reason why I declined responding to the post, and it's certainly not because I have nothing to rebut with. I'm not the type of person to shy away from a good debate, as my posting history should show. A rant of that caliber though really doesn't deserve or even require a rebut.

If someone [else] wants to discuss the subject in a manner which has some semblance of respectable debate, sans the venom and immaturity, be my guest.

[DarkHalo003]

I'm kind of scared to vote now. I was hoping that either one of the candidates wouldl have a good head on their shoulders (HAH!), but from what I keep seeing nothing is truly consistent. I was even starting to hope that Obama would actually stop this and sustain a stalemate in between the craziness of the Executive and Legislative branches. That way, instead of voting for a nutjob like Gingrich or deceitful like Romney, I could basically try to avoid anything scary like this from happening. Oh well, really starting to hope someone fights the government in an effective way that doesn't involve occupying the wrong places.

[TVTyrant]

lol. One person makes an exceptionally unsophisticated rant riddled with ad hominem and about two dozen "fuck"s, and another high fives him.

There's a good reason why I declined responding to the post, and it's certainly not because I have nothing to rebut with. I'm not the type of person to shy away from a good debate, as my posting history should show. A rant of that caliber though really doesn't deserve or even require a rebut.

If someone [else] wants to discuss the subject in a manner which has some semblance of respectable debate, sans the venom and immaturity, be my guest.
Your constant belief that you are somehow better than others amazes me. Until he posted something I thought was relevant, I too had given up on these discussions because I have found you and the other "conservatives" to be full of bullshit. Im done posting in these threads as long as you keep up your attitude. If you want to act like we are having a discussion than do so. If not, than just continue with what you are doing.

[Patrickssj6]

I agree with king.

[king_nothing_]

Your constant belief that you are somehow better than others amazes me.
I don't, but obviously there are some people here who simply do not communicate their thoughts in a decent manner. I can't imagine any impartial observer concluding otherwise after reading that. Once upon a time I was guilty of the same thing to a degree, and I've realized how fruitless it is. People here need to at least try to suppress the urge to spew hatred, venom, and inflammatory remarks. That's all I'm asking for.

[DarkHalo003]

King, at least consider that this is an emotional topic, so people are going to post inflammatory remarks because they're furious with how the government is handling its role. But I agree, the use of obsenities never really enhances the intellectual value of a debate, though it is necessary sometimes to have the point come across.

[TVTyrant]

I don't, but obviously there are some people here who simply do not communicate their thoughts in a decent manner. I can't imagine any impartial observer concluding otherwise after reading that. Once upon a time I was guilty of the same thing to a degree, and I've realized how fruitless it is. People here need to at least try to suppress the urge to spew hatred, venom, and inflammatory remarks. That's all I'm asking for.
I can agree to this. I try to not be inflammatory. I only "high fived" him because I agreed with his statement. I know, based on the rest of the thread, that we agree on the rest of what is happening with this bill. The Ron Paul debate is really a separate issue that should be discussed elsewhere.
And I agree that many of the posts that Ross has posted since his occasional return to Modacity have been inflammatory. I avoid them as often as possible, as I tend to strongly disagree with his sharply anti-American attitude.

In the end I apologize for blowing up at you. I took it too personally instead of seeing your frustration as being mounted towards the Ross post rather than mine.

Also zero fucks were included in the above text. lol.

[rossmum]

I like how people still honestly believe profanity is anything other than simply using the English language to its full potential. What next, is someone going to swoop in and berate me for having a small vocabulary? I hope so, because that would be hilarious. It's probably bigger than most people on this site could manage by a considerable margin.

Here, let Stephen Fry tell you about swearing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ0Ny6WhfLU). Let him tell you all about it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM). I wasn't honestly expecting anyone on this site to pick out my language from that post, but I guess there are still people in the world with confused priorities.

On all other counts, you got me. I don't follow US politics closely enough to make some well-thought-out post extolling the virtues of abstaining from support for Paul, but I do know he follows the standard Libertarian idea of "FREE MARKET SOLVES EVERYTHING, ALSO PUT THE GOVERNMENT IN ITS PLACE". A lot of people tout his name as though he is some form of saviour bestowed upon us all, and only those who can truly appreciate his genius really see what is wrong with your country. Look out, I'm about to swear again. Bullshit. He thinks that American strength is affected by UN and NATO membership and they should withdraw, and that border security needs to be strengthened and illegal immigrants who do make it into the US cracked down on. So he's a nationalist, and that's one big red strike against him already. As much as people would like to believe it, their jobs are not being stolen by illegals, those jobs are being filled because Americans either don't want to do them or refuse to do them for the same price. Considering the abysmally low US minimum wage, that might sound like a good excuse, but it's really not; if you're that fucking desperate for a job, you would take it instead of whining about illegals. Whine about your country's atrocious disregard for the financial wellbeing of the majority of its population and how it will pander to the corporations it serves by allowing them such ridiculous abuses. As for the UN and NATO... the UN, while clunky and slow to act, is the first real step in the right direction. Even getting them to write an angrily-phrased letter to someone is a pretty impressive feat of international diplomacy, and the fact those countries cooperated in order to do it should be lost on nobody. Pulling one of its largest, and founding, members from under it is going to cause a serious ripple effect and doing so for some idiot's nationalist zeal would reflect very poorly on the country as a whole. When most of the world already looks at the US and sees nationalist loudmouths (regardless of whether this is true or not, and I hold they are no worse than any other large group - look at Europeans, the two are as bad as each other), this is not something you want.

Then we have his economic policies; bear with me, this isn't my strong point but I know just enough to know why this is his second big red strike. He thinks trade is already too limited and should be totally free. Again, the Libertarian "INVISIBLE HAND OF FREE MARKET COMES DOWN AND SAVES WORLD" idea. The only thing that is going to do is put more power towards those corporations who already control the fucking government and I fail to see how that is anything but bad. He has one good idea here that I also support, though, which is cutting the fat from government and losing as much bureaucracy as possible. We (West as a whole) pay people ludicrous salaries to do things a man in the street is expected to do for free. There are so many levels on which things can be misunderstood or lost, it's just ridiculous. Government should look towards employing only as many people as it needs to run efficiently, this would mean huge hit to unemployment but sooner or later those people would probably get poached off by private firms. That or retrain in something actually useful to society.

He supports personal liberty and the Second Amendment, which is great, but he is also a strong opponent of abortion. Let me repeat that. Supports personal liberty, opposes abortion. I really don't think I need to make it any clearer just how hypocritical that is. If you don't like abortion, don't get one and fuck off. It's not the government's place to tell people whether conception is the beginning of life legally or birth is, especially when nobody else can agree on it either.

He opposes capital punishment. Good. Too bad he also supports private property rights in cases where the EPA becomes involved. That's right folks, for all Ron Paul cares, you could recreate Chernobyl on your little plot of land. Hey, your land, do whatever the fuck you want, right? He opposes socialised healthcare because it fucks with his precious free market. Good to know peoples' lives mean nothing compared to the free fucking market, I am so glad we live in a world where this makes someone some kind of cult hero and not a social pariah.

So yeah, I think I'm pretty safe to subjectively call him a repulsive, hyperconservative fuckwit. Also inflammatory posts are fun posts, and people tend to really show their colours when you wind them up, so ~*deal with it*~

e/ not that it really matters since we all know at the end of the day both sides are going to stuff their fingers in their ears and hum loudly. Fun watching people choose a party line and argue it until they're blue in the face. And yet we wonder why nothing ever really changes, funny that. Also, w/r/t being "anti-American", no I'm not. America has an important role to play but sadly it is politically, socially and educationally backwards. I would be the first person to celebrate when that changes. What I am against is America having the degree of international power it does, because frankly, it cannot be trusted to use it responsibly or in ways that make any sense at all. Really no country can, but America even less so. It still sits on the right extreme of politics, where I'd rather any world power sit around the middle or at least have left - proper left, not failed Communism left - to balance America out.

[CN3089]

Ron Paul is an insane racist homophobic old man who would somehow manage to run your country into the ground even more than your congress and supreme court is doing already and that's saying something

[Kornman00]

Nah, you're getting confused with Texas-native Rick Perry

[rossmum]

No, they both would

[Roostervier]

Government regulation of the market doesn't give big corporations less power--now the government is in on it and much more likely to put in place laws that aid said corporations. Total free market is garbage because you wind up with the robber barons all over again. Only solution worth a shit is a free market in which the government's only role is not regulating standards or owning any shares, but making sure that competition remains. A laissez-faire free market does not take into account human nature (much like communism--no, I'm not comparing them as if they are both economic policies, just pointing out that neither would work because people are greedy) and so could never exist. It stops being a free when market there is no competition, which is an inevitably. If you have a free market in which a fair, centralized, outside player (the government or a department of it) makes sure no one company dominates the market, the power is placed in the hands of the consumer. Laissez-faire places power in the hands of those with money, and government-regulated places power in the hands of those with money and the government. The latter may not be the case in places outside the US, but it's definitely the case here.

[rossmum]

I'd feel no better about putting power in the hands of those with money than I do about the government acting in their interests anyway. All you're doing is cutting out the middleman and making it even easier for them to fuck us.

Best option, but one which won't happen because they will never let it, is we restrict corporations so heavily they never get rich or influential enough to buy anyone out.

[TVTyrant]

I like command economy the best

Come at me bros

[Bodzilla]

I like command economy the best

Come at me bros
this is the most out of place comment i've ever seen.

seriously.

i've followed the politicians a little bit this time around, not as much as i followed the obama mc cain hillary debacle.... but they all look bad this time.


like :////

[king_nothing_]

I like how people still honestly believe profanity is anything other than simply using the English language to its full potential. What next, is someone going to swoop in and berate me for having a small vocabulary? I hope so, because that would be hilarious. It's probably bigger than most people on this site could manage by a considerable margin.

Here, let Stephen Fry tell you about swearing. Let him tell you all about it. I wasn't honestly expecting anyone on this site to pick out my language from that post, but I guess there are still people in the world with confused priorities.
Used sparingly, it has it's place and can be effective. Used every other sentence, you just come off as a hate-filled person who can't control their anger or conduct a discussion in a decent manner.


He thinks that American strength is affected by UN and NATO membership and they should withdraw,
He thinks we give up soverignty to such entities, which is correct. We go to war based on UN resolutions instead of through Congressional approval which the Constitution requires, which is ridiculous.


and that border security needs to be strengthened and illegal immigrants who do make it into the US cracked down on. So he's a nationalist, and that's one big red strike against him already. As much as people would like to believe it, their jobs are not being stolen by illegals, those jobs are being filled because Americans either don't want to do them or refuse to do them for the same price. Considering the abysmally low US minimum wage, that might sound like a good excuse, but it's really not; if you're that fucking desperate for a job, you would take it instead of whining about illegals. Whine about your country's atrocious disregard for the financial wellbeing of the majority of its population and how it will pander to the corporations it serves by allowing them such ridiculous abuses.
Yes, he wants to defend the borders, which is one thing the federal government is actually supposed to do. He wants to make legal immigration easier as well. Against amnesty. Against a border fence. Against REAL ID. Against forcing employers to basically act as unpayed immigration officers by forcing them to verify the citizenship of "suspected illegals" before hiring. Not much more to say.

As for him being a "nationalist"...well he's definitely not a globalist, so I suppose you could say that. It's bad enough that we have a centralized federal government dictacting laws to people 3,000 miles away, and you want to go one further and give portions of that power to a global organization? No thanks.

If a small, local government gets something wrong, there are at least two upsides to it (compared to a centralized government getting something wrong): 1) it's a relatively smaller group of people suffering, and 2) it's easier for them to possibly reverse the bad legislation at the local level. What happens if a centralized (federal or international) government gets something wrong? A hell of a lot more people end up suffering, and it's much more difficult for them to bring about a change. This is precisely why the founders of this country intended the federal government to be weak and for the majority of government power to reside at the state and local level.

It's also worth noting that "wrong" legislation is subjective. This country is not homogeneous, and the globe certainly is not. What you may consider wrong, another area may consider right. Who are you to dictate to them what is right and what is wrong? I find it scary that 535 people, 9 people, or one person (depending on which branch is responsible for any particular thing) is dictating the lives of 300 million people.


As for the UN and NATO... the UN, while clunky and slow to act, is the first real step in the right direction. Even getting them to write an angrily-phrased letter to someone is a pretty impressive feat of international diplomacy, and the fact those countries cooperated in order to do it should be lost on nobody. Pulling one of its largest, and founding, members from under it is going to cause a serious ripple effect and doing so for some idiot's nationalist zeal would reflect very poorly on the country as a whole. When most of the world already looks at the US and sees nationalist loudmouths (regardless of whether this is true or not, and I hold they are no worse than any other large group - look at Europeans, the two are as bad as each other), this is not something you want.
You're way off base if you think a Paul presidency would reflect poorly on the country in the eyes of the rest of the world. Most of the world hates us because of our insane foreign policy, our penchant for telling other countries how to govern, puppeting foreign governments, etc. He vehemently opposes all of that. He wants to close all of our foreign military bases. It should be obvious to anyone paying attention that our reputation in the world would be vastly improved by him being elected.


Then we have his economic policies; bear with me, this isn't my strong point but I know just enough to know why this is his second big red strike. He thinks trade is already too limited and should be totally free. Again, the Libertarian "INVISIBLE HAND OF FREE MARKET COMES DOWN AND SAVES WORLD" idea. The only thing that is going to do is put more power towards those corporations who already control the fucking government and I fail to see how that is anything but bad.
If it's admittedly not your strong point, then why do you have such a strong opinion on it? Why not study various points of view with an open mind and try to inform yourself? Your substanceless "INVISIBLE HAND OF THE FREE MARKET" derision isn't helping your argument, and I could respond basically the same way with "the socialist 'ANGELIC HAND OF GOVERNMENT COMES DOWN AND SAVES THE WORLD' idea", but I realize that's entirely substanceless and accomplishes nothing.

I really don't feel like typing out things I've already said previously, so I'll just point to this:

http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/EFI_HumDev.jpg
(The Human Development Index (HDI) is a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standards of living for countries worldwide.)

http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/EFI_LifeSatisfaction.jpg

http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/EFI_EconOutput.jpg

http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/EFI_HumanCapital.jpg
(Human capital: the abilities and skills of any individual, esp those acquired through investment in education and training, that enhance potential income earning)

http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/EFI_CreativeClass.jpg
(Creative class: spans science and technology; arts, culture and entertainment; and the knowledge-based professions.)

http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/EFI_Competitiveness.jpg

I'm sure these are all just incredible coincidences though, right?

Feel free to peruse my other posts in that thread.

One thing I'll say is this: I find it funny that you think more regulation would result in less corporate control over the government, and less regulation would mean the opposite. Who do you think writes/is behind much of the regulation we have? It's the large corporations vying to protect their own interests. More regulation of business is not going to have the desired effect when the corrupt people in government are the ones allowing it to happen. You need more regulation of government, not business. You need to shrink their power down to the point where they don't have anything left to sell/give to corporate interests.


He supports personal liberty and the Second Amendment, which is great, but he is also a strong opponent of abortion. Let me repeat that. Supports personal liberty, opposes abortion. I really don't think I need to make it any clearer just how hypocritical that is. If you don't like abortion, don't get one and fuck off. It's not the government's place to tell people whether conception is the beginning of life legally or birth is, especially when nobody else can agree on it either.
I find it a bit odd that you spend half of one sentence to mention one of his most important philsophical views; his defense of individual liberty. I think he deserves a bit more than that considering he adheres to it moreso than anyone else running, by far.

As for being pro-life, I don't see it as being hypcritical. If you adhere to the non-aggression principle, as libertarians do, you can see it either way, it just depends on whether or not you see it as a human life deserving of protection. For the record, he wants to leave it to the states to decide, not the federal government.

Getting back to his support of liberty, you really could say that that is what dictates just about every stance he takes, not just on social policy. I find it odd how so many people who claim to support liberty want to chop it up into various sections. Personal liberty, economic liberty, private property rights, etc. It should be all one package, you don't pick and choose. Economic liberty and personal liberty are one and the same. Supporting one and restricting the other is contradictory. If you seek to petition the government to restrict my right to pursue whatever economic ventures I may choose, you are not a true proponet of personal liberty, plain and simple.

I've vaguely thrown the idea around in my mind of starting a small business of my own some day, but with all the ridiculous regulations and taxes, I don't know if I'd ever want to go through with it. So if you're having a hard time wrapping your head around the idea that regulation hurts the economy, there you go. I'm personally deterred from starting a small business, and I'm obviously not the only one.


He opposes capital punishment. Good. Too bad he also supports private property rights in cases where the EPA becomes involved. That's right folks, for all Ron Paul cares, you could recreate Chernobyl on your little plot of land. Hey, your land, do whatever the fuck you want, right?
If you're not polluting or otherwise affecting anyone else's property, then yes, you ought to be able to do what you want on your own property. Your Chernobyl scenario is a bit out of bounds though, since recreating it on a "little plot of land" is probably going to pollute the surrounding properties.

People need to respect private property rights more, though. If I "own" something, but an outside party is dictating how that property shall be used, do I really completely own it?


He opposes socialised healthcare because it fucks with his precious free market. Good to know peoples' lives mean nothing compared to the free fucking market, I am so glad we live in a world where this makes someone some kind of cult hero and not a social pariah.
You could also say that he opposes socialized healthcare because it fails miserably. It succeeds in causing prices to rise and quality to fall. Ever notice the trend here? In the areas where the government is more heavily involved, the quality of the service goes down, and the price goes up (healthcare, education). In areas where the government has little involvement, the quality goes up, and the price goes down (technology). The same is also true for areas of medicine which are not covered by insurance, such as Lasik surgery and cosmetic surgery. Falling prices, increasing quality. Think about it. Government is causing the ridiculous unaffordability of healthcare.

And then there's just the plain and simple immorality of forcing someone to buy something they don't want.

Oh, and this "heartless bastard who could care less about peoples' lives", as you characterize him, refused to accept Medicare or Medicaid and instead gave care to people for free if they couldn't afford it when he ran his own private medical practice. He's not heartless, he simply has a different view than you on how to best improve healthcare. Don't demagogue the issue.


e/ not that it really matters since we all know at the end of the day both sides are going to stuff their fingers in their ears and hum loudly. Fun watching people choose a party line and argue it until they're blue in the face.
Not sure if you're talking to me, but...I don't adhere to any "party line"...especially not the GOP.

One other thing people need to think about is this: how much of his philosophy could he implement, or would he even try to implement, if he were elected? He has no desire to be a dictator; he would easily be one of the least dictatorial presidents in history, since he actually adheres to the rule of law. He's even opposed to using exective orders, except to repeal prior executive orders, if I remember correctly. Most of the philosophical disagreements you have with him would never come to pass in his presidency anyway. The most important things he could actually do are: fix our horrendous foreign policy, and veto, veto, veto. Then veto some more. If that's all he could get done, that would be completely worth it in my opinion.

One other thing, and I haven't heard him talk about this too much so I'm not sure how high up on his to do list it would be, but he could pardon people convicted of victimless, nonviolent crimes.

[DarkHalo003]

I can agree with most of what you're saying there King. Unfortunately, I can't say whether or not I would even support Paul simple because it's not the main election yet. If all you say about him is true though, then he's definitely one to consider. Regardless, Gingrich being a candidate is scary.

[TeeKup]

If it's a choice between Obama, Rick Perry, Rick Santorum, and Ron Paul. I'd vote for fucking Ron Paul. Everyone else I hate or terrifies the living shit out of me.

[king_nothing_]

Regardless, Gingrich being a candidate is scary.


Everyone else I hate or terrifies the living shit out of me.
Agreed on both counts. Having researched his record quite a bit, Gingrich especially scares the hell out of me. They would all be absolutely horrible though in my opinion. If Paul doesn't get the nomination, I'm not sure what I'll do, but I know I won't be voting Republican or Democrat. I'll either vote third party or write-in Paul as a protest. The "lesser of two evils" mentality can screw off, in my opinion. I've done that in the past, and I'm not doing it again. People say voting third party is a wasted vote -- well I think voting for one horrible candidate over another horrible candidate is a wasted vote. I'm just not going to do it anymore. If more people start voting on principle, maybe some day we can get out of this two-party (aka, one big government party with two wings) stranglehold.

[TVTyrant]

Gingrich is awful. If he somehow wins the Republican nomination I will laugh. He's a complete joke.

If we are going to have the Ron Paul discussion, I will say I like him as a person. He doesn't "play ball", which is something I have deep admiration for. That takes a lot of balls and determination. But I disagree with his politics, so I will not vote for him.

IMO Obama and Romney are the only conceivable candidates from the major parties. Romney has shown himself to be extremely pragmatic, but his hinting at a privatized military scares the shit out of me. As far as Obama goes I will say he has not exactly had a good chance, and I think four years is too short of a time to judge a president who has been involved in the greatest economic struggle since the 1930s.

I will probably vote Obama, but like I said if Gingrich or Cain wins I will move away. That thought disgusts me beyond my patriotism will allow.

[Patrickssj6]

the real question ist

http://i.qkme.me/35mizp.jpg

[rossmum]

Hey I live in a country with socialised healthcare and it works pretty fucking great so I'm genuinely curious what exactly people use as a basis for the "it doesn't work and also ruins everything" line of argument.

e/ This is also true of the country I was born in and the one I spent my early childhood in. Of all three, the UK's was probably the worst due to chronic mismanagement, but it was still so much better than being forced to deal with some private insurance firm who wants to go out of their way to fuck you. Oh and my last hospital stay the other week? Fixed and out in less than six hours. Free. Tell me how this is worse than the absolute nightmare that is the American healthcare system (unless you are rich in which case I guess it's just fine and dandy).

e/ In fact, let's expand upon this post some.

When the national phone carrier was owned and run by the government, it was great. Sure the government were idiots and took funding away from fibre so we fell behind, but that was unrelated gov't stupidity that merely cost Australia its lead in the field, not any crippling thing. Energy was good too. Now both the former national carrier and the former government-owned power supplier have been privatised and we are paying through our fucking noses for less service than we had before. Of course Telstra still owned all the lines and switches, so they then had a monopoly which they used to artificially raise prices across the board (regardless of your own provider, because they all had to pay a cut to Telstra anyway). Telstra is still the most expensive provider and they seriously pull so much borderline illegal bullshit it's not funny. Fair trading has tried to nail them a couple of times but it hasn't worked because of technicalities. Power prices are rapidly approaching unaffordable for many families, every power company has jacked their prices up and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

We are now paying for a brand new national broadband network because the Government realised its mistake too late and now has to bypass Telstra entirely. Yep, you read that right, Australia will have not one but two networks because one of them is pretty much unrecoverable. I would not be surprised if this one, too, is eventually privatised by a government which follows America's example of throwing the little people to the sharks more and more often.

Fuel costs an ungodly amount, from $0.70/L with a weak dollar (was about 70 US cents) in 98/99 to $1.00 in 03/04 with a dollar hovering about 80-90 US cents to fucking $1.50 per litre and our dollar has been at relative parity with the US for some time. This is the doing of the oil companies. Private business.

Living costs in general here are atrocious. It sure is a good thing Australia's minimum wage is so huge compared to America's, or about half the country would be sitting below the poverty line. And every single bit of this can be attributed to the free market which you seem to imply is responsible for making Australia have a good GDP, good living conditions, and all those other stats libertarians like to pull out and point to excitedly. In actual fact, Australia lives and breathes off of its natural resources exports. If this country wasn't located over all sorts of good stuff, we would not be on the upper end of those lists. Of course, statistics only show what you want them to, so there's that.

Meanwhile, healthcare has not been privatised and I am so glad that is the case. I don't need to worry about things like whether I'm insured by a private firm, whether said firm will pay out based on some minor technicality in their contract or skewed judgement of whether my condition was pre-existing, or whether they will go under and leave me out in the cold. Nope, when I am sick or injured the only thing I need to worry about is making sure I have my wallet and housekeys with me for when I get discharged and need to get home.

Please go right ahead and tell me how you honestly believe this is not vastly superior to anything the US could ever hope or dream to have.

[DarkHalo003]

Hey I live in a country with socialised healthcare and it works pretty fucking great so I'm genuinely curious what exactly people use as a basis for the "it doesn't work and also ruins everything" line of argument.
It can't function well in the U.S.; we're too corporate. People should be informedof proper ways to obtain proper health insurance instead of being forced shitty health insurance that will cause all health insurance via market to rocket in price. In other words, maybe in Canada or France, but not in the U.S. We also have an insanely larger population and a convulated health system enough as it is, not to mention: socialised health care from OUR government? I think that's what most people here are getting at.

[=sw=warlord]

It can't function well in the U.S.; we're too corporate. If people were informed with proper ways of obtaining health insurance instead of being forced shitty health insurance that will cause all health insurance via market to rocket. In other words, maybe in Canada or France, but not in the U.S. I think that's what most people here are getting at.
It could function, the problem is no one will allow it to function because socialism is a step towards communism and dem dam communists ruin everything.
rite??

Saying socialized healthcare cannot work because the population is too corporate is almost like saying you can't learn to ride a bicycle because you walk every where.

[CN3089]

If it's a choice between Obama, Rick Perry, Rick Santorum, and Ron Paul. I'd vote for fucking Ron Paul. Everyone else I hate or terrifies the living shit out of me.

lol you'd vote for ron paul even though he thinks you're hellspawn (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.7955:) gj gj


Prohibits the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style.


cold hard facts itt: obama is the best you've got, and probably the best you'll have for some time


enjoy it while you can

[=sw=warlord]

^
This.

[king_nothing_]

lol you'd vote for ron paul even though he thinks you're hellspawn (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.7955:) gj gj
uh, lol. I can guarantee you that this is the only part of that that was important to him:

"Prohibits the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization"

You can stick just about anything under the sun after that, and he would have voted for it. He always votes against unconstitutional spending. How hard is that to understand?

Also,

se0NqJFMAlg

QGaBAb_oS84

[rossmum]

It could function, the problem is no one will allow it to function because socialism is a step towards communism and dem dam communists ruin everything.
rite??

Saying socialized healthcare cannot work because the population is too corporate is almost like saying you can't learn to ride a bicycle because you walk every where.
This is the true reason. It has been for the longest time and you need only look at the way many Americans react to the words 'socialism' or 'communism'. The PNW isn't too bad but in the south especially, people are still apparently living in the 1950s. I mean, how many Americans still harbour some kind of dislike or distrust towards Russians when the Soviet Union never even had an offensive war plan in the first place? (This could also be turned the other way, but it seems like Russians do it more because it's funny watching Americans get mad. At least, that's the way their politicians seem to operate).

Head into the kinds of places you see a Confederate flag on every second truck (which is fucking unbelievable in itself) and proclaim your love of socialism and see how well it ends for you. You'll probably get assaulted or at the very least verbally abused or cast out.

America is so backwards it fucking hurts. I feel sorry for you guys.

[Patrickssj6]

It can't function well in the U.S.;
Argument invalid; too overused.

lol'd at the hellspawn comment though.

Seriously though, Obama has changed from being revolutionary and is probably now a good autochthonal candidate.


I mean, how many Americans still harbour some kind of dislike or distrust towards Russians
Side note: Basically every action Hollywood movie has some crazy Nazi scientist or communist Russian.

[rossmum]

CN is right; despite all the hollow promises and backflipping he's probably the best the US can expect for a while. He seems to have at least tried not to pass too many draconian, backwards things into law. I can't say I'd expect the same of McCain or any of the candidates for the next election, either.

e/


\
Side note: Basically every action Hollywood movie has some crazy Nazi scientist or communist Russian.
Let's not forget the charicatures in CoD games and the fact every available flat surface in BLOPS had a hammer and sickle, SSSR monogram, or Lenin's portrait on it

Anyone who has actually seen Soviet military installations knows just how ridiculously over-the-top it is. We are talking the 21st fucking century and yet here we are, Russians still the bad guys in everything, and there is more wanton abuse of the hammer and sickle than there is of the swastika in comparable games and movies which are supposed to emphasise how evil the NAZIS were. Think about that for a second.

[Tnnaas]

Just wait until they start bashing China or the Middle East if they haven't already.

[Pooky]

lol you'd vote for ron paul even though he thinks you're hellspawn (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.7955:) gj gj

Where exactly are you getting this hellspawn idea from? I don't see anything like that.

[rossmum]

Oh and RE: UN membership lessening America's sovereignity. Fat chance, the US is a permanent member of the Security Council and thus have veto powers. The US doesn't have to go anywhere they don't want to go I'm pretty certain.

[DarkHalo003]

As much as I'd like it for the U.S. to be more reserved like we were before WWII, times have changed. It's honestly difficult to say what course of action should be taken for this policy other than to have some hand in global monitoring, but having enemies is never good.


This is the true reason. It has been for the longest time and you need only look at the way many Americans react to the words 'socialism' or 'communism'. The PNW isn't too bad but in the south especially, people are still apparently living in the 1950s. I mean, how many Americans still harbour some kind of dislike or distrust towards Russians when the Soviet Union never even had an offensive war plan in the first place? (This could also be turned the other way, but it seems like Russians do it more because it's funny watching Americans get mad. At least, that's the way their politicians seem to operate).

Head into the kinds of places you see a Confederate flag on every second truck (which is fucking unbelievable in itself) and proclaim your love of socialism and see how well it ends for you. You'll probably get assaulted or at the very least verbally abused or cast out.

America is so backwards it fucking hurts. I feel sorry for you guys.
Please reserve your generalizations for people who don't know actuality, thank you. :downs:

I live in the South. We're not stuck in the 1950s. The people you see in the media are what you're talking about, which once again means what? That you like everyone else is fooled by an incendiary press? I do see that CSA Flag every now and then, but it's usually some inside joke or cliquish (hate to say redneck to avoid another generlaization) meaning to it besides misguided Southern Pride. In other words, most people who have it on their cars don't think about it or don't actually feel that way. Trust me, I was in a high school where people who had those stickers on their trucks were friends with black people.

The reason why Americans oppose socialism is because we are virtually the opposite; we're a capitalistic society that try to go by the idea that we all have, at one point or another, an equal opportunity at whatever our "American Dream" is whether it be having our ideal career or living in that plot of land we want to. Is it easy though? Hell no. Too many people think it's easy, which is the reason why we're stuck in the shit we are today; people have been expecting things to be just handed to them. It's apparent our government can't even properly operate social welfare and barely operate medicaid/medicare, so how the hell do you think it can operate social-healthcare for everyone?

On the topic of Russians; I've had a good number of Russian friends and have not once in my life met a person (adult or peer) that discriminates against them. Who on Earth are you looking at in the South who does that? Where do you gather information for your generalizations?

On the topic of Obama; WHAT THE HELL HAS HE DONE POSITIVELY WITH FOREIGN AND ECONOMIC POLICY? He's accomplished some good changes to Domestic policy, but he's initiated an eminently backfiring Social Healthcare that our country can't afford in its current economic status and his office has done nothing special or helpful in dealing with backstabbing banks nor with fending off corporate vultures or even remotely repaired the economy in any way. IF you're argument is that he's the President and that he can't actually fix anything economically, then that's good, that means you understand all of his promises about economic policy meant jack shit. Foreign policy-wise he's done nothing but end a war in Iraq, which in case we still have the War on Terror in the Middle East elsewhere, but he did win a Noble Peace Prize for making a Speech on why we should keep fighting in the Middle East (the fuck?).
AND TO DRAW THIS ALL TOGETHER:
----------------------------------------------------> He didn't veto a bill that allows the military to detain terror suspects without trial when he said he would. Hmm, some President we got here. :allears:

[=sw=warlord]

As much as I'd like it for the U.S. to be more reserved like we were before WWII, times have changed. It's honestly difficult to say what course of action should be taken for this policy other than to have some hand in global monitoring, but having enemies is never good.
You already have satellites covering the earth, you really don't need a military base in every region.
To do so would imply that you are "the boss" and asking those regions to give up sovereignty, which last I recall, is a big deal to you lot.

[Tnnaas]

There is one person who wants to pull out.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8NhRPo0WAo)We need to stop sticking our noses in other peoples' business. It often gets us in more trouble than we can handle.

[rossmum]

I do see that CSA Flag every now and then, but it's usually some inside joke or cliquish (hate to say redneck to avoid another generlaization) meaning to it besides misguided Southern Pride. In other words, most people who have it on their cars don't think about it or don't actually feel that way. Trust me, I was in a high school where people who had those stickers on their trucks were friends with black people.
Ah yes, the good old "but it's okay because I have black friends". Not to be confused with the more shameless "Well some of them are okay, I mean look at my friend". Having black friends doesn't excuse people from being racists, sorry. Additionally, it's one thing to use offensive symbols for comedy purposes amongst friends, but putting it up on your truck or your window where everyone can see it? Hahaha, nope. Don't even try and defend that.


The reason why Americans oppose socialism is because we are virtually the opposite; we're a capitalistic society that try to go by the idea that we all have, at one point or another, an equal opportunity at whatever our "American Dream" is whether it be having our ideal career or living in that plot of land we want to. Is it easy though? Hell no. Too many people think it's easy, which is the reason why we're stuck in the shit we are today; people have been expecting things to be just handed to them. It's apparent our government can't even properly operate social welfare and barely operate medicaid/medicare, so how the hell do you think it can operate social-healthcare for everyone?
So basically you're happy for things to stay broken because mannnnn, that socialism stuff sounds hard.

Yeah, not really much of an excuse there. America's size and its political history are no more a limit on its ability to foster reform than any other country, what is a limit is the prevailing attitude of ignorance.


On the topic of Russians; I've had a good number of Russian friends and have not once in my life met a person (adult or peer) that discriminates against them. Who on Earth are you looking at in the South who does that? Where do you gather information for your generalizations?
Watch anything on Youtube related even tangentially to the Cold War, USSR, or militaries or equipment of Russia or the US. Not just the usual YT trash comments, but the general attitude of a lot of the US shows is either "RUSSIAN AGGRESSION" or "USA #1". Not all, but enough, and more than you see from other countries. Also I don't recall saying the entire south (and only the south) was a hotbed of anti-Russian bigots, I remember saying that it is a problem across the entire US but is more noticeable in the republican states, which as we all know are concentrated in the south (not that it is exclusively there). At any rate the rule persists of the idiots being the loudest.

At any rate, I could say the same, because I don't associate myself with fuckwits. Personal friends or acquaintances don't constitute a good sample.


On the topic of Obama; WHAT THE HELL HAS HE DONE POSITIVELY WITH FOREIGN AND ECONOMIC POLICY? He's accomplished some good changes to Domestic policy, but he's initiated an eminently backfiring Social Healthcare that our country can't afford in its current economic status and his office has done nothing special or helpful in dealing with backstabbing banks nor with fending off corporate vultures or even remotely repaired the economy in any way. IF you're argument is that he's the President and that he can't actually fix anything economically, then that's good, that means you understand all of his promises about economic policy meant jack shit. Foreign policy-wise he's done nothing but end a war in Iraq, which in case we still have the War on Terror in the Middle East elsewhere, but he did win a Noble Peace Prize for making a Speech on why we should keep fighting in the Middle East (the fuck?).
I'm not saying he was literally a good president but given the alternatives I'm sure a rock with a face painted on it would also compare favourably


AND TO DRAW THIS ALL TOGETHER:
----------------------------------------------------> He didn't veto a bill that allows the military to detain terror suspects without trial when he said he would. Hmm, some President we got here. :allears:
You seem almighty surprised at something pretty much everyone except Paul (who would then go and counter that by doing something incredibly stupid elsewhere) would also have avoided doing.

e/

Additionally I'd like to remind everyone what happened in the 90s after the Afghan-Soviet war finished and the US cut all aid, leaving a crushed nation to attempt to drag itself back out of the dirt when it was barely holding together to begin with. Might pay to keep an eye on Libya, considering they love us now just like the Afghans did just as the last BMPs rolled back across the border. See where that's at in a decade or two.

If you're going to go fuck someone's shit up, then you have to stay behind and clean up. Regardless of whether you were helping them or not, if you just piss off the second the fighting's over, or leave them in an uncertain state without proper support, they are going to hate you for it later. You can't just 'bring the boys back home' and leave them to their own devices, you are setting yourself up for another clusterfuck a few years down the track.

You can have isolationist policy, or you can intervene in others' affairs. You cannot pick and choose and once you go somewhere you can't just wash your hands of it and expect isolation to solve everything.

[Kornman00]

I will probably vote Obama, but like I said if Gingrich or Cain wins I will move away.
Please don't :(.

Pretty, pretty please? Cherry on top?

...I'll give you Atty's sister.

Also, last I checked, Cain went back to sexually harassing women making pizza (ie, not running for pres anymore), so we're safe from his shenanigans for now.

[rossmum]

One of my friends, of similar views to myself politically, just linked me to a list of Paul's alleged policies and intentions. Bear in mind this was on about the least impartial website ever being linked by someone who is already strongly against Paul. With that said, if even a fraction of those policies were what Paul actually believes - they were linked to various other political sites and there were so many I just don't have time to check them - I would vote for fucking GWB over him, every time. It reads like a nightmare list of ways to make the US even more backwards, fuck the poor even more than they already are, and give even more power to the rich. Which makes sense, I guess, since the entire Libertarian platform of small government, free market is basically that.

Oh, and I think that government influence in citizens' lives should be through support and provision of necessities and services, not through invasions of privacy or basic human rights violations. I'm not a fan of the government sticking its dick in where it's not needed or removing the most basic responsibilities of citizens (i.e. literal nanny state, taking responsibility from parents so they can be lazy pieces of shit all they want. I think every Western country has at least some degree of guilt here). However I also believe the government should actively limit the power of corporations so as to avoid the retarded shit we have going on now. Corporations absolutely should not EVER have more power than a lawfully-elected government. They should not even APPROACH the point where they can be of any influence. Giving them a free market will make them even worse than they already are, destroying them entirely would end poorly (at least at this point in time), but fuck they need to be regulated.

People would do well to avoid jumping on the bandwagon because of a few large policies, or some theoretical outcome, before first looking up the voting history and core beliefs of the candidate. Especially when you can almost guarantee those core beliefs will fuck with their judgement and might even rub off on their legislation.

[DarkHalo003]

Well, if you can fix our broken country by the snap of your fingers, then please try. Capitalism or Socialism, this country has larger issues than economic and political identity. Besides this legislation and those like it causing future concern, too many aspects in the infrastructure are crooked. Education is rigged for the teachers in too many ways, particularly in the Tenure and Standardized Testing topics. As I said before, you cannot ignore how inefficient all social benefits from the government are (unless you want to count medicaid on some occasions) and how "Obamacare" will further cause it to fall into ruin, especially with the decayed stature of the Economy. But this is really a pointless debate now straying from the topic; half of the arguing folk in this thread aren't even from the country, so it's not like it solves anything by raising points to other voters.

[Kornman00]

hmmmm....nope, no link to bitched-about site!

[rossmum]

There isn't a link because I'm not sure I'd consider it reliable enough to post. I am strongly against Paul regardless of whether any of the information there was reliable or not, so at the end of the day it didn't do much beyond reinforce that. At any rate I'm beginning to wonder why the fuck I am even posting on a site which not so long ago saw not just a user, but several, attempt to defend eugenics. Clearly I am too much of a big communist lie-beral babby for this place as I am just wasting my time, I guess I am just an idiot and Ron Paul is ~*THE ONE TRUE HOPE*~.

I'll go waste energy yelling at people about something else, and outside of feeling bad for what my friends have to live with, what happens to the US really doesn't come back on me. Enjoy I guess.

[CN3089]

Please don't :(.

Pretty, pretty please? Cherry on top?

...I'll give you Atty's sister.

Also, last I checked, Cain went back to sexually harassing women making pizza (ie, not running for pres anymore), so we're safe from his shenanigans for now.

and what (electable) candidate is better than Obama? i mean yeah if elizabeth warren was running sure go hog wild but that isn't happening 'til 2016


in 2012 it's romney vs. obama (barring some crazy perry/gingrich-surge) and if you honestly think romney is better than obama then :raise::raise::raise:



REMINDER:
osama bin laden is dead
dadt is repealed
your economy hasn't completely imploded despite the republican's best efforts to that end
two new sensible supreme court justices
a health care reform law that's about as good as you could've gotten at the time
seriously he hasn't fucked anything up you remember your last president (the republican one)?? that guy was fucking something up every other day

[neuro]

i was actually wondering, what's obama done that's so bad?

from my europeean perspective, he's the best prezzy you guys have had in MANY years.
that's not saying he's a great prez, that's just saying all the others were much much worse.

i'm not comletely out of the loop, and i like to read up on the shenannigans your politicians are pulling every other day or so.

[Tnnaas]

I haven't followed the past four years of politics, so excuse me if I'm wrong. I believe the problem is that he can only do so much with the power he is given. People tend to blame him for our $15 trillion debt (http://www.usdebtclock.org/) even though it had really started with George Bush. I'm not sure why he gets blamed for the debt crisis, but that may just be the public choosing to demonize the president. Either way, I don't think he's been our worst​ president ever.

[Bodzilla]

i was actually wondering, what's obama done that's so bad?

from my europeean perspective, he's the best prezzy you guys have had in MANY years.
that's not saying he's a great prez, that's just saying all the others were much much worse.

i'm not comletely out of the loop, and i like to read up on the shenannigans your politicians are pulling every other day or so.
Clinton was p good from my vague understanding

[=sw=warlord]

What gets me is the American public were stupid enough to back for a second serving of GWB even with everything that was happening at the time.
Given the current "cream of the crop" in terms of election candidates Obama is a lot less venomous.

[DarkHalo003]

What gets me is the American public were stupid enough to back for a second serving of GWB even with everything that was happening at the time.
Given the current "cream of the crop" in terms of election candidates Obama is a lot less venomous.
I honestly think Bush was the only decent candidate when it came down to him or John Kerry. Kerry in office would have been, well, disturbing. But you're right that Dope up in office wouldn't be as bad as Gingrich. Romney won the Iowa Primary, so we'll see what happens from here.

Clinton is rated highly because he resolved some minor issues the nation was having AND his term was during an economic expansion. A lot of people associate his short term in office as "feel good." In terms of George Bush and even Obama being good presidents, no one will know until down the road.

People like to blame the President for bad economic states, but the truth is that they have little to nothing to do with how well the economy does. If anything this global crisis is still very similar to the Great Depression: many U.S. citizens decided to use credit too much to own large items (hence the devastation of the housing market) and a economy in Europe fell big time from other matters (Greece had a major part in this global recession). Also keep in mind, this is a great recession, but it's not so much the worst when comparing to past issues (1960s-70s before and during Reagan's presidency) where people didn't have money at all. People just expect like to be easy and flow smoothly, when in reality recessions and times of economic hardship are just another part of living in a Global Market.

[Kornman00]

Well, for starters, he re-approved the Patriot Act, kept Gitmo open (which I believe was one of the things he said he would nix in his campaign) and, oh, you know, signed in the NDAA with all its nonsense (hello...this is the actual topic of this thread, did you guys forget already?).

He may have "fixed" some previous president's shit, but he's continued to break shit (including campaign promises) while in office.

[CN3089]

that's congress's fault


anyways as always in a two party system the only thing that matters is: the other guys would do worse

[=sw=warlord]

You can blame the senate (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8060350.stm) for Guantanamo bay.
They voted to block funds for transferring the prisoners, in fact I seem to remember it's closing was one of the first things that Obama began working on. (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1872158,00.html)

As for the NDAA, there was some bartering done, In fact as I recall a very large chunk of defense budget was cut from the bill, something to the tune of $50Bn.
Defense is a very large business, we all know what ever get's called as being in the interest of "national security" strings are pulled to make these kinds of things pass through.
Instead of being irate at Obama maybe you should be irate at the politicians who didn't even bother reading the bill and passed it simply because it had the word "defense".

IE: Obama is not the black devil so many think him as, he had the balls to order gitmo closed but got stone walled by the senate, he threatened to veto the NDAA and got stone walled again by the senate.

[DarkHalo003]

We all know Congress sucks. We need term limits.

When you live under him, it's a different story; you see SO much more that could be done that isn't done. That's more or less my beef with him and I know it's not entirely justified considering Congress being a bitch. However, there is still a lot he could have brought to the table, such as more focus on Education and Social Benefit reform that is so desperately needed. I guess what makes me like Bush more than him when it boils down to it is that Bush wasn't as much of a politician as Obama is. Whether or not Bush was a good president, he had good intentions that just weren't implemented right at all, but at least he appeared human. Not saying that's a good reason to like him as a president, but given Obama's presidency really feels like a Cinderella Story endorsed by "Hope" and the Media, well, it's easy for me to delve away from the gloss.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't want a politician for a president.

[=sw=warlord]

You realize it was bush's administration that brought Gitmo to fruition in the first place?

[DarkHalo003]

You realize it was bush's administration that brought Gitmo to fruition in the first place?
Yeah and I don't know enough about Gitmo to say anything about it. My comment wasn't directed around the attention/intentions regarding Gitmo.

[TVTyrant]

Please don't :(.

Pretty, pretty please? Cherry on top?

...I'll give you Atty's sister.

Also, last I checked, Cain went back to sexually harassing women making pizza (ie, not running for pres anymore), so we're safe from his shenanigans for now.

Better than anyone else. Between a douche and a turd sandwich i will take the douche every time.

[Patrickssj6]

Better than anyone else. Between a douche and a turd sandwich i will take the douche every time.
regarding color, you are taking the turd this time though :V

[TVTyrant]

Haters gonna hate!

[Kornman00]

Well, if none of those things will change your mind about Obama...then maybe THIS (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45878146/ns/technology_and_science-space/) will! Yes, that's right, in your face! This blows the whole birth certificate crap right out of the water! I don't think Obama can ever recover from this secret...

[=sw=warlord]

Yeah and I don't know enough about Gitmo to say anything about it. My comment wasn't directed around the attention/intentions regarding Gitmo.

Wait, you don't know what Gitmo is?!
It's only the concentration camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp) in Cuba for indefinitely detaining national and foreign nationals alike without charge or trial.
Further more torture is a common place event ranging from psychological all the way to physical torture, there's a reason GWB cancelled his trip to Switzerland, they were going to arrest him under crimes against humanity and intent to commit torture.

How the FUCK did you not know about this?!

[Tnnaas]

Well, if none of those things will change your mind about Obama...then maybe THIS (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45878146/ns/technology_and_science-space/) will! Yes, that's right, in your face! This blows the whole birth certificate crap right out of the water! I don't think Obama can ever recover from this secret...
I got two things out of that.
1) Burning sides from excessive laughter.
2) Why haven't we seen general purpose use of teleportation technology since the 1980s?

[Patrickssj6]

How the FUCK did you not know about this?!
Because he rather talks about what the Nazis did wrong.

[DarkHalo003]

Wait, you don't know what Gitmo is?!
It's only the concentration camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp) in Cuba for indefinitely detaining national and foreign nationals alike without charge or trial.
Further more torture is a common place event ranging from psychological all the way to physical torture, there's a reason GWB cancelled his trip to Switzerland, they were going to arrest him under crimes against humanity and intent to commit torture.

How the FUCK did you not know about this?!
Fuck, I know what it is, but I don't know ENOUGH about it for me to feel comfortable to debate about it. There's a lot of back information I don't know about to have a firm idea when it comes to a debate. Frankly, I don't want to debate about Gitmo because I'm too torn on the subject (from a tactical and ethical standpoints alongside how little I know about it) and all I know is that it's a military detention center in Cuba where they interrogate (which in case can be reverted as torture) suspects and terrorists they gathered from the War on Terror. That is all I know about it and that's why I choose not debate it.

@Patrick: :raise:



Why haven't we seen general purpose use of teleportation technology since the 1980s?
Because who would want inside-out human beings on their slab-white floors? :ohdear:

[Kornman00]

there's a reason GWB cancelled his trip to Switzerland, they were going to arrest him under crimes against humanity and intent to commit torture
The Switz should have kept their mouths shut and held a "surprise party"

[Patrickssj6]

The Switz should have kept their mouths shut and held a "surprise party"
the problem is that a single grenade is sufficient to wipe out their entire country :S

rolling cheese down the hill is their way of defending against intruders

[=sw=warlord]

the problem is that a single grenade is sufficient to wipe out their entire country :S

rolling cheese down the hill is their way of defending against intruders
And getting drunk on beer is your countries way.

[Patrickssj6]

*while sitting unemployed at home and getting paid for it

[TVTyrant]

Well, if none of those things will change your mind about Obama...then maybe THIS (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45878146/ns/technology_and_science-space/) will! Yes, that's right, in your face! This blows the whole birth certificate crap right out of the water! I don't think Obama can ever recover from this secret...
Rofl

Warlord, Gitmo is not a concentration camp. Come on now. That's hyperbole if it has ever existed.

[=sw=warlord]

Rofl

Warlord, Gitmo is not a concentration camp. Come on now. That's hyperbole if it has ever existed.
Then what would it come under?
Usually a prison is the tail end of some sort of trial, the people held at Gitmo had no trial, no charges and are being held against their will on little more than suspicion after being abducted.
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-children-old-men)There's also the issue of the inmates being tortured
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation#Interrogation)You want to call it hyperbole? Go ahead.
But ask yourself this, why is it the international community has been calling it to be closed for so long and why there is so much hatred for its existence.

[TVTyrant]

Internment camp.

The word you are looking for is internment.

[DarkHalo003]

Then what would it come under?
Usually a prison is the tail end of some sort of trial, the people held at Gitmo had no trial, no charges and are being held against their will on little more than suspicion after being abducted.
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-children-old-men)There's also the issue of the inmates being tortured
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation#Interrogation)You want to call it hyperbole? Go ahead.
But ask yourself this, why is it the international community has been calling it to be closed for so long and why there is so much hatred for its existence.
Technically, you could call them POW from the War on Terror. Either way, from what I do know of Gitmo, those taken into custody are relatively unstable individuals and were lead movers of terroristic acts. Not saying torture is ever just, but the "international community" in general has no right to point fingers in that regard. Every country has done its bloody torturing in its times of war, not saying that's excusable, but don't act high and mighty because your country wasn't caught in the spotlight.

If this is a debate of morals in a time of war, then we'll get no where. This is also not the topic of this thread. Just saying.

[=sw=warlord]

Technically, you could call them POW from the War on Terror. Not really, you don't take civilians as prisoners. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-children-old-men)
Either way, from what I do know of Gitmo, those taken into custody are relatively unstable individuals and were lead movers of terroristic acts.Are you telling me a 14 year old kid is a lead mover for terrorist attacks? really?
Not saying torture is ever just, but the "international community" in general has no right to point fingers in that regard.
It has every right to point fingers, treaties were put in place for a reason, the united states is bound by international no less than anyone else.
Every country has done its bloody torturing in its times of war, not saying that's excusable, but don't act high and mighty because your country wasn't caught in the spotlight.
As mentioned, treaties were put into place, most countries have evolved to a point where torture is inexcusable and a form of high crime, to say it is done in times of war is no excuse and certainly does not justify torturing inmates of whom some are imprisoned over false charges, as mentioned there have been children as well as elderly civilians held there, one of which was 80 years old with severe dementia [which FYI would hinder any intention if there was any to take part in such acts].

If this is a debate of morals in a time of war, then we'll get no where. This is also not the topic of this thread. Just saying.

You can attempt to pretend that such a place serves a purpose other than to lower yourselves to the level of those whom you fear or you can be the better people and actually do something worth while.

Going down to their level serves no use, you don't become a leader by going down to that kind of practice, you become a leader by leading by example, you show off why you are the better people, you show that you can persevere and prosper even with the bad apples trying to make everything rotten.

[DarkHalo003]

You can attempt to pretend that such a place serves a purpose other than to lower yourselves to the level of those whom you fear or you can be the better people and actually do something worth while.

Going down to their level serves no use, you don't become a leader by going down to that kind of practice, you become a leader by leading by example, you show off why you are the better people, you show that you can persevere and prosper even with the bad apples trying to make everything rotten.
In that you are right. Like I said before, what I know of Guantanamo Bay is limited, which is why I tried to only state the basics of what I knew. As you just showed there, I did not know that information. And no, I did not say teenagers or senile old folk are leaders of terrorist movements; that's bending my words to fit your argument.

[TeeKup]

I'm sorry but I'm with Warlord on this. Guantanomo is another putrid black mark on this country.

[TVTyrant]

I'm sorry but I'm with Warlord on this. Guantanomo is another putrid black mark on this country.
Agreed but a concentration camp it is not. We have not selected people by the millions based in their religion and wiped them systematically.

[neuro]

actually switzerland has one of the most comitted armies in the world.

-everyone-


everyone is given a gun and a bunch of bullets in switzerland, in case they go to war, everyone will be armed.
the only way you can take out switzerland, is systematically killing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF ITS INHABITANTS.

good luck with that. pretty sure an America vs Europe war would be in europe's favor, considering we've got the ruski's on this side of the pond, and i'm fairly certain which side China etc would take as well :P

(also, the country is LITTERED with bunkersm forts and tanktraps)

pretty sure finding a captive bush in switzerland would be A WHOLE BUNCH HARDER than finding saddam/osama in a desert

[Warsaw]

Except...how would Europe project its force over here?

Irrelevant to the discussion though. Gitmo needs to go. Now.

[neuro]

Except...how would Europe project its force over here?

Irrelevant to the discussion though. Gitmo needs to go. Now.

we don't need to project shit, you'll blow yourself up, did you see the state of your country lately? :P


Gitmo needs to go. Now. <- but yeha, this.

[Donut]

the idea of attempting to raid switzerland to save bush makes me chuckle. i dont know where the US would even begin in attempting that

[Warsaw]

we don't need to project shit, you'll blow yourself up, did you see the state of your country lately? :P


Gitmo needs to go. Now. <- but yeha, this.

Heh. Maybe. Unless Obama really did get rid of all the nukes. Or maybe there'll be some massive uprising when some police reaction to a protest *really* crosses the line.

Fuck it, bring on the fall of society. I'm ready.

[neuro]

2012, the year we might actually get the end of society <3

[Tnnaas]

2012, the year we might actually get the end of society <3
Regardless of whether the world ends or not, I'm still pretty sure that rioting will be seen globally. So yea, society is pretty fucked either way.

[Patrickssj6]

I think a few days before 21st of December I am just going to do the things I would do when the world would really end...aside from hijacking a fast car and driving around :D

[nuttyyayap]

Well have fun, 'cos all I'ma do is party from 6:00AM on the 20th to the 23rd where I'll pass out :saddowns:

[=sw=warlord]

Agreed but a concentration camp it is not. We have not selected people by the millions based in their religion and wiped them systematically.

Millions?
No, that doesn't mean the camp isn't a concentration camp, you cannot call it a prison. you cannot call it a rehabilitation centre, you cannot call it a refugee camp nor can you call it's practices of interrogation legal under international law [any law POW or otherwise].
Guantanamo does not consider it's detainees as combatants due to lack of uniform or other such details, as such they are not "considered" to be under the Hague conventions for keeping enemy soldiers.
If they are not considered combatants or part of a military what does that describe the inmates as?
Civilians?
Indeed there are many civilians being there.

also on the note of the USA somehow invading Switzerland over bush, unfortunately i never saw the original post about it only the ones after but my thoughts are this:
IF the USA were to invade Switzerland, even the Navy seals would have issues getting past all that security, let's face it, there's only so much the USA could do without invoking international condemnation and having the Swiss declaring war, which would likely end horribly for the USA.

Germany proved one thing rather well, no one country can take the entire world on and win, you attack the Swiss, you are likely to have the Swiss call their friends in and I very much doubt either Canada or Mexico would be too quick to come to your aid.

[Ryx]

Internment camp.

The word you are looking for is internment.

Concentration camps do not have the intent of interrogating prisoners. Concentration camps contain prisoners, until they don't need containing anymore.

Concentration camps do not hold people for strategic value, internment camps do.

[TeeKup]

Doesn't the European Union have a unified defense pact? I'm pretty sure if my country even attempted to attack Switzerland, the whole of Europe would punch us in the dick.

EDIT: Wait Switzerland isn't a part of the EU.

[Patrickssj6]

Who even raised the topic USA vs Swiss xDDD It's ridiculous.

I am just lollin'g so hard how some of you even try to make a difference between a concentration camp and Guantanamo. What gets me are those hypocrites who TRY to find a difference like it matters in the first place or simply answer "i cannot talk about GITMO because I don't know much about it".

[TVTyrant]

Where did the Switzerland stuff come from? What would be the point in attacking Switzerland other than raiding their banks to get out of debt...

New plan British peoples. If you guys okay our attack we will split the riches with you 50/50. Then we won't have any debt anymore!

By the way this post is meant to be sarcastic/humorous.

[TeeKup]

No idea, but it was interesting to entertain the thought of Europe's reaction should for what-ever-the-fuck-reason we did do that, as in I want the whole of Europe to say "America....if you don't stop it, we will strike you with marble column."

[TVTyrant]

No idea, but it was interesting to entertain the thought of Europe's reaction should for what-ever-the-fuck-reason we did do that, as in I want the whole of Europe to say "America....if you don't stop it, we will strike you with marble column."
It would be more like "Bad America bad! Go outside before I rub your nose in it!"

[DarkHalo003]

Who even raised the topic USA vs Swiss xDDD It's ridiculous.

I am just lollin'g so hard how some of you even try to make a difference between a concentration camp and Guantanamo. What gets me are those hypocrites who TRY to find a difference like it matters in the first place or simply answer "i cannot talk about GITMO because I don't know much about it".
Haw look at you! :haw:

[Patrickssj6]

Haw look at you! :haw:
Actually if I would take someone to describe the majority of the uneducated American population, I would choose you.

Infraction totally worth it.

[Pooky]

Actually if I would take someone to describe the majority of the uneducated American population, I would choose you.

Infraction totally worth it.

You act like there aren't masses of uneducated people in every country. :nsmug:

[DarkHalo003]

You act like there aren't masses of uneducated people in every country. :nsmug:
Glad someone said it.

And Patrick, I would choose you too. :downs:

EDIT:

http://act.demandprogress.org/sign/ndaa_reversal/?source=fb

The fact that this act can be abused terrifies me. Reminds me of what could host another Red Scare (McCarthy) all over again.

[=sw=warlord]

Glad someone said it.

And Patrick, I would choose you too. :downs:
Get a room you two.
you deserve each other.

[neuro]

+rep

[DarkHalo003]

Get a room you two.
you deserve each other.
I lol'd.

[Patrickssj6]

You act like there aren't masses of uneducated people in every country. :nsmug:

I know how shitty my country is but no one bothers to raise discussions about it :golfclap:

[Pooky]

I know how shitty my country is but no one bothers to raise discussions about it :golfclap:

Guess it's just not important enough for people to care :downs:

[Kornman00]

I ja'd