Bipartisan push by US congressmen to repeal ban on domestic propaganda

[rossmum]

Reps from Texas and Washington have snuck this little gem into the new defence bill, masked by other, much more contentious issues like a ban on gay marriage within military installations and indefinite detention (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/bipartisan-congressional-bill-would-authorize-the-use-of-propaganda-on-americans-living-inside-america-because-banning-propaganda-ties-the-hands-of-americas-diplomatic-officials-mil.html). Their argument is that Al-Qaeda's propaganda is reaching Americans, so obviously to effectively continue to keep the population scared shitless of a boogeyman of the government's own creation so they're easy to control fight terrorism, the US government needs to be allowed to force their own propaganda down the throats of their citizens.

Now as we all know, the US government hardly actually needs this, since America's piss-poor education system and constant over-the-top nationalist agitation are all the propaganda you could ever want or need; however, it seems that the powers that be are a little on edge recently and have decided that conditioning the bulk of the population into being GOD BLESS AMERICA drones through shitty education, nationalism, and all those wonderfully not-subtle AMERICA SAVES THE WORLD AGAIN television shows and movies is just not effective enough. No, they need to be able to fill your life with overt propaganda, presumably about how evil Al-Qaeda is and how crucial to FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY it is that the US goes and bombs countries with brown people in them continues to fight them. Obviously everyone needs a reminder of just how massive a threat A-Q is, since they aren't the word on everyone's lips any longer.

This wouldn't belong in this section if it wasn't for my little remarks and a healthy dose of my own views on the subject, so here goes...

Al-Qaeda, while definitely a terrorist organisation full of murderous dickheads, is a threat of America's own creation. If America could keep their fucking dick out of the Middle East for two minutes, bin Laden would never have had a leg to stand on and he would never have gained any support. Al-Qaeda enjoys the constant recruiting and propaganda successes it does because America is too fucking stupid to realise that by constantly retaliating they are making the problem worse. Or at least, you'd think it's stupidity; but I doubt it. There's a saying "never attribute to malice what can be explained adequately by incompetence", but in the case of governments I would say the opposite is more likely to hold true.

The simple, undeniable fact of the matter is that Al-Qaeda is actually a great tool for the US government to clamp down on what little rights its citizens have left, while facing relatively little opposition. It's even more effective than the UK governmnet's "it's for the children". The day Al-Qaeda stops being a thing, the US government loses a huge amount of control over its people and may even face the risk of being brought to account for its many and varied crimes against humanity, its own and foreign. Why would you want to actually destroy the thing that keeps your population scared and stupid? They don't, and so rather than leaving the Middle East alone - which would see Al-Qaeda eventually fade into laughable irrelevance - they continue to escalate their response to make sure they keep the radicals mad as hell. They jabbed the hornet's nest with a twig, then a branch, and next it'll be an electric fucking cattle prod.

So yeah, enjoy your upcoming totalitarian police state. By the time any of you finally decide to do something about it, you won't have a constitutional right to any longer - if you ever truly had it in the first place, that is.

[TVTyrant]

If your smart this won't matter

And I don't see why the military shouldn't promote their cause

I also don't get why there would be gay marriage ceremonies on military bases in the first place. If marriages (like the ceremonies) aren't illegal on military bases I'd be surprised

I've never seen anyone be as pro US as you are anti US. Think about that

[TVTyrant]

Also, we used to bomb countries full of whites and Japs, but everyone started complaining.

[rossmum]

I hope you're fakeposting because I don't even compare to the amount of USA UBER ALLES you will see around the internet, on US television, and in US newspapers.

I'm also making no comments on the issue of gay marriages inside military bases, but I am glad to see their smokescreen worked a treat on you. They are hiding this - the real issue - under an issue they know people will go ballistic over because the US government is aware that the word 'gay' in any legislation whatsoever will trigger massive outrage in at least half the population while the real issues slide by unnoticed.

Also, being 'smart' does not protect you from propaganda at all. Look at how many Germans with incredible intellect either got swept up in the Nazi movement, or at least turned a blind eye while working for its benefit. Look how many people with above-average IQs fall for racism, white nationalism, blind McCarthy-era anti-Communism, or any number of other things to that effect. Being smart doesn't protect you from being conditioned at all.

Furthermore, this is not merely "the military promoting its own cause". Wake the fuck up. Propaganda is what got the Nazis where they were, is what got Stalin into power and prevented a popular uprising against him, and is what has caused racism to linger like a bad smell sixty-seven fucking years after the war in the Pacific and CBI theatres ended. Almost nobody was against bombing Germany or Japan. It wasn't until very, very late in the war that discontent appeared at all, and even that was mostly people thinking Bomber Harris was going too far.

Propaganda does have the potential to do good, but is almost never used for it. In this case, it would almost certainly be used to further turn people against Muslims the world over (because as we've already seen, there are plenty of elements within the US government who desperately want to see them turned into a full-blown, total-war enemy - imagine the fear then!).

[TVTyrant]

Except I have made tons of friends who were from the Middle East, some I was very close to. I have never seen anyone say that Muslims should be hated, or that they shoudl be killed, or that being a Muslim makes you a bad person. I have seen plenty of people suggest that religious fundamentalism does though, and I don't think that's accurate either. Its acceptable to hate on the Christies because they are mainstream in your country and in mine. But when people warship a warlord who claimed God came to him in a cave, its totes cool dawg.

Yes, I saw the smokescreen. I thought you hadn't and that you were making an issue of it. My bad.

On Propaganda: you can claim that the Americans do that already all you want. Maybe you should start a movie studio and make movies about how the aborigines were never mistreated once or something. You are so quick to claim we are evil, but I don't see it. Our government is definitely not some Nazi entity looking to wipe out Islam. If we were, it'd be over already, and I'd be living in a town probably occupied by you and the other members of a massive coalition.

People aren't as desperate as in the US as the Germans were in the early 30's . Plus, with our built in populations of blacks and mexicans, that will never happen. There will always be those who oppose sweeping regimes in America. We will always have an anus for a government, but there will always be those willing to stand and fight.

I love how you claim we are all conditioned when you are one of the most "conditioned" people on these boards. Wake up bro, and stop thinking everything is black and white. Its all grey man. There is no good and evil. Only something in the middle called humans.

Also a small percentage of this is built to ensure you respond.

[TVTyrant]

also I hate Modacity sometimes. Shit is going bad right now grah. Always happens at midnight.

[rossmum]

Except I have made tons of friends who were from the Middle East, some I was very close to. I have never seen anyone say that Muslims should be hated, or that they shoudl be killed, or that being a Muslim makes you a bad person. I have seen plenty of people suggest that religious fundamentalism does though, and I don't think that's accurate either. Its acceptable to hate on the Christies because they are mainstream in your country and in mine. But when people warship a warlord who claimed God came to him in a cave, its totes cool dawg.
Come on. You are either lying to yourself, or a hermit. I need only wander out into the street and mill about for five seconds before I hear someone make some hilariously badly-informed comment about how all Muslims are terrorists/out to destroy the white race/want us all to follow Sharia law or whatever the fuck the scare is this week. It's everywhere in the West, even countries which have relatively small Muslim populations and have never experienced any terrorist activity or noteworthy degrees of fundamentalism. It's like some sort of twisted existential terror that grips white-majority countries, somehow thinking that each newcomer is out to destroy them, and it has proven for a long time to be a really great tool for the government to capitalise on by stirring it into a whirlwind of fear which, in turn, allows them to make awful breaches of human rights without recourse.


Yes, I saw the smokescreen. I thought you hadn't and that you were making an issue of it. My bad.
Yeah, I only even included what the smokescreen was so people would be able to see exactly how this kind of shit passes. The US Congress has a long and proud history of slipping through really obnoxious pieces of legislation buried deep within the pages of defence bills, but the masking on top of that is pretty worrying, because you just know how effective it will be.


On Propaganda: you can claim that the Americans do that already all you want. Maybe you should start a movie studio and make movies about how the aborigines were never mistreated once or something. You are so quick to claim we are evil, but I don't see it. Our government is definitely not some Nazi entity looking to wipe out Islam. If we were, it'd be over already, and I'd be living in a town probably occupied by you and the other members of a massive coalition.
I'm not claiming America itself is evil, I am claiming its government is a bunch of power-tripping shitheads who are making great use of a problem they caused themselves to further infringe upon the rights of their citizens as well as other people around the world. If you don't see it, try and look at it from an outsider's perspective. Islamic fundamentalism had never really been a huge threat to the US until Al-Qaeda came along (USS Cole, embassy bombings). Rather than leave the Middle East alone, the US increasingly involves itself there under the guise of "combating terrorism and bringing freedom/democracy/McDonalds to the oppressed", all the while anyone with half a brain can see this is exactly what the fundies want as it gives them plenty of propaganda wins of their own. If the US stopped dicking about in affairs that are none of its business, it would not have a terrorist problem right now. The simplest explanation of why they avoid this, and one that's fairly well-supported looking at the path introduced legislation is taking, is that the goverment actually wants to keep the people scared and stupid while they fuck them.


People aren't as desperate as in the US as the Germans were in the early 30's . Plus, with our built in populations of blacks and mexicans, that will never happen. There will always be those who oppose sweeping regimes in America. We will always have an anus for a government, but there will always be those willing to stand and fight.
People used to think like that in other countries, too. You cannot simply assume you are safe from propaganda because of diversity, because either they too will be affected or they will up and leave. That's the thing - people will run before they fight. Look at diasporas worldwide, when something shitty happens huge numbers of people scatter across the world rather than try and resolve the issue.


I love how you claim we are all conditioned when you are one of the most "conditioned" people on these boards. Wake up bro, and stop thinking everything is black and white. Its all grey man. There is no good and evil. Only something in the middle called humans.
It is impossible to be 'conditioned' when there is nothing to do the conditioning. I went through the same education system as everyone else in Australia, I watched the same TV shows, read the same news... I arrived where I am through my own conclusions, which is the absolute opposite of conditioning. Aside from which, no, not everything is black and white... but given the choice between assuming the government knows best and letting them slip shit like this by and assuming they mean the worst and calling it out, I'd rather do the latter, because if that is the case and you don't realise it, it's too late by the time it happens.

[TVTyrant]

I don't think they know best. I just don't think its as big of a deal as infringing on free speech or SOPA was or the newest bills against pirating are. The military can claim whatever they want, I ain't buying it.

On Islam: In Oregon, literally NEVER. Not once. On Fox TV, yeah, but I have never met a single fucking person who lived here who said anything like that, believed anything like that, or thought that it was the goal of our government. Because its not. I don't get why you think its the "Western Goal" because I strongly disagree. The only goal the West has is to have its slimy tendrils involved in every country on Earth. Thats what dominant cultures do. Everywhere. Across history. Every time.

America is different than you people think it is. The Mexi internet hate is meaningless. I have never heard of people attacking someone for being Mexican. Statistically speaking, we are the friendliest country to immigrants of other colors.
As far as muslims go, in every circle I run in at college there are 2-3 muslim guys, and everyone is cool with them. We have lots of Islamic/Middle Eastern people here at OSU, and other than a minor hate crime that happened after a foiled terrorist attack, we have had no problems. They are nice people, even if I find the oppression on free speech in their countries saddening.
As far as black people go, we don't have many in Oregon. I can't really comment on it.
Asians are pretty much white here. They are even considered to be part of the white demographic by our stupid government because they make such quick economic progress following immigration. They are thriving here.
As far as Eastern Europeans, there are lots of them here in Oregon and they are great. My buddy Jasko was a fucking riot in high school, and his impression of the Cold War was awesome.

[rossmum]

I don't think they know best. I just don't think its as big of a deal as infringing on free speech or SOPA was or the newest bills against pirating are. The military can claim whatever they want, I ain't buying it.
And I'm not saying you will, but you are not everyone else. Many people will buy into it and in most cases people can't even tell when they are being manipulated.


On Islam: In Oregon, literally NEVER. Not once. On Fox TV, yeah, but I have never met a single fucking person who lived here who said anything like that, believed anything like that, or thought that it was the goal of our government. Because its not. I don't get why you think its the "Western Goal" because I strongly disagree. The only goal the West has is to have its slimy tendrils involved in every country on Earth. Thats what dominant cultures do. Everywhere. Across history. Every time.
I've heard various ignorance come from people who live in Oregon on other matters, but if that is legitimately the case, Oregon must be some kind of wonderland of tolerance. I personally have my doubts, but hey if that's how it really is, good on them.


America is different than you people think it is. The Mexi internet hate is meaningless. I have never heard of people attacking someone for being Mexican. Statistically speaking, we are the friendliest country to immigrants of other colors.
Internet hate is not meaningless at all. The internet gives people who are otherwise fearful of becoming a social pariah the opportunity to voice their true feelings on matters.


As far as muslims go, in every circle I run in at college there are 2-3 muslim guys, and everyone is cool with them. We have lots of Islamic/Middle Eastern people here at OSU, and other than a minor hate crime that happened after a foiled terrorist attack, we have had no problems. They are nice people, even if I find the oppression on free speech in their countries saddening.
The ironic thing is that most of that oppression is down to dictators (theocratic or otherwise) who came to power either as a result of, or with the aid of, the US and USSR while they were trying to control the Middle East; several also came to power as a result of kneejerk reactions to the manipulation of those two superpowers. I know plenty of Muslims and they seldom, if ever, run into problems with other people; however there are constant racially-motivated crimes here, there are a large number of people who believe they are out to get us or are destroying our culture, and it is the same anywhere in the West you go - you just need to catch people when they don't think they're being watched, or when they're in their little echo chamber and feel safe to bring it up. In this regard the US is really no different to anywhere else where whites are a majority and Christianity still has some influence. The difference is just how proactive the US government is in ramping up tensions between itself and groups like A-Q, and how little it does to prevent mass hysteria reactions.


As far as black people go, we don't have many in Oregon. I can't really comment on it.
Asians are pretty much white here. They are even considered to be part of the white demographic by our stupid government because they make such quick economic progress following immigration. They are thriving here.
As far as Eastern Europeans, there are lots of them here in Oregon and they are great. My buddy Jasko was a fucking riot in high school, and his impression of the Cold War was awesome.
Yes, it's diverse. It is here too. Most places are these days, and diversity fucking owns.

[TVTyrant]

I'm not lying about the Islam thing, man. Never ever ever have I heard anything CLOSE to the hate a lot of Euros have expressed about Muslim immigrants. The most I have heard here has been in jest, quickly followed by a wink or something.

[rossmum]

I guess Oregon truly is the wonderland TFR's Oregon posters make it out to be, then. Hurry up and form Cascadia with Washington and BC already.

[TVTyrant]

I guess Oregon truly is the wonderland TFR's Oregon posters make it out to be, then. Hurry up and form Cascadia with Washington and BC already.
Its Pacifica

And I am trying, but nobody wants to have to fight fucking Cali. So many people :saddowns:

[rossmum]

None of them are decently armed though so it should be a pushover

[Higuy]

dear god (bless america), Rossum, you are full of shit, America is the holy land and the best country on earth, you cannot critcize it why are you critizing it oh mayyyyyyyy goawd

[Bodzilla]

dear god (bless america), Rossum, you are full of shit, America is the holy land and the best country on earth, you cannot critcize it why are you critizing it oh mayyyyyyyy goawd
This topic just went from bad to mexican.

[FreedomFighter7]

You know when an argument just got real, when the replies start to get really extensive and respond to every post made against them or their views!

I try to stay away from multiplayer and online discussion areas these days, they tend to devolve into paranoid discussions about the gov'mnt, draw relations between current events and nazi germany, and are full of anti-americanism.

People who believe this crap need to get out more, and stop watching so much TV. Its only on TV when governments become these all powerful "police states". Look at Egypt, a simple facebook movement resulted in the overthrow of Muhammar Gadhafi and his government (nevermind whats happening now), can you imagine what would happen if the US goverment tried to control its people like these fictional "police states" do? With all the guns in this country? People would be up in arms!

Rossmum's argument: "Americans are so stupid they will believe anything because their government says and because they are americans and they are stupid". I don't mean to point fun at you, but your entire argument seems to be to back up the opinion that americans are stupid!

I'll state the truth, the truth that has gone unsaid for years: for whatever reason, America has become the worlds scapegoat. Maybe the rest of the world had a problem with 3,000 American men, women, and children being outright murdered by Al Qaida terrorists, and then retaliating against the people who wronged us, I don't fucking know.

[DarkHalo003]

The War on Terror? That shit's still going on?

@Tyrant: Really the only hate is from adolescants who think it's funny or are trying to fit in a clique. Basically a bunch of dumbshits are the ones who talk badly. Actually Rednecks really. From Georgia at least, growing up in a school from a small town, it's not common to see these dibshits talking bad about other races.

@Ross: The internet is also a place for trolling and the statements of things that people deliberately say to infuriate others. It's really not that reliable.

[RedBaron]

I actually use to believe that the US purposely did not pursue Bin Laden for a decade or so because if they were to actually kill him, there wouldn't be a face to associate the boogyman with anymore.

[rossmum]

Entirely possible.

[rossmum]

I try to stay away from multiplayer and online discussion areas these days, they tend to devolve into paranoid discussions about the gov'mnt, draw relations between current events and nazi germany, and are full of anti-americanism.

People who believe this crap need to get out more, and stop watching so much TV. Its only on TV when governments become these all powerful "police states". Look at Egypt, a simple facebook movement resulted in the overthrow of Muhammar Gadhafi and his government (nevermind whats happening now), can you imagine what would happen if the US goverment tried to control its people like these fictional "police states" do? With all the guns in this country? People would be up in arms!
Except they wouldn't be, because nobody has done anything so far about the absolute plethora of rights they have lost, nor have they done anything about the crimes the US government has committed in the eyes of international law. Why? They're all too busy being terrified of Al-Qaeda, arguing about what rights homosexual couples should have (which is a perfectly good thing to argue in favour of, but it means other issues slip by unnoticed), or trying to make the political party they don't like look bad.


Rossmum's argument: "Americans are so stupid they will believe anything because their government says and because they are americans and they are stupid". I don't mean to point fun at you, but your entire argument seems to be to back up the opinion that americans are stupid!
I don't recall saying Americans are stupid at all, I recall saying all people are easily fooled by propaganda, easily hoodwinked into letting awful legislation slip by unchallenged by the "looming threat" of a terrorist group that wouldn't even be a problem if it wasn't for the actions of the government, and that even without full-blown propaganda people are already mindlessly parroting what the government wants them to. It is just as likely to happen anywhere else, there is no magical gene that makes Americans any more or less prone to falling for propaganda.


I'll state the truth, the truth that has gone unsaid for years: for whatever reason, America has become the worlds scapegoat. Maybe the rest of the world had a problem with 3,000 American men, women, and children being outright murdered by Al Qaida terrorists, and then retaliating against the people who wronged us, I don't fucking know.
Are you fucking insane? Blowback is an accepted theory in the intelligence community, including America's, and has been for a long goddamn time. It is the same reason Israel is perpetually in a world of shit. Al-Qaeda's attacks, while horrific, were blowback from US meddling in the Middle East. If the US wanted them to stop, the US itself would quit involving itself in the fucking Middle East, not invade and occupy two countries. The rest of the world has no problem with the Americans who were killed and you are not only insulting the intelligence of everyone here by suggesting that, but you are being a complete fucking idiot. I'm guessing you would've been one of the morons who joined in with Rudy Guiliani when he booed and berated Ron Paul for saying the only intelligent thing I have ever heard come out of his mouth, that 9/11 was a consequence of American involvement in the ME and the only way to stop Islamic fundamentalist terror groups like A-Q is to leave that area of the world the fuck alone.

America is the world's scapegoat because it is the international equivalent of a moody teenager who stomps around throwing tantrums when things don't go their way. They throw their military and economic power around without a moment's thought for the consequences, and then when it comes back to haunt them, they try and co-opt other nations into joining in on their revenge. Unfortunately, they usually do join in.



@Ross: The internet is also a place for trolling and the statements of things that people deliberately say to infuriate others. It's really not that reliable.
That doesn't make it any less of an issue. There are a damn lot of people who are deadly serious about having horrible views.

[n00b1n8R]

For the most part I agree with what Ross said.
This bill is honestly sickening and I seriously worry about what would happen if it passed.
In the US you have a bill of rights, please try to keep it together.

(bill of rights Australia edition plz)

E: wtf there's a page 2?? i'll update this post tomorrow~