I really hate what they did with the Tag Database... [Archive]

Dr Nick

June 18th, 2007, 01:54 AM

I think it would've been much better if they had the tags for every map like the first halo Tags, instead of just tags for the example map.

Maybe they'll come out with another download in a couple of months.

What do you guys think?
Should they have set up the tags on the CD(or a seperate one if it was too big), or are you happy with what they gave us?

Phalanx_Master

June 18th, 2007, 02:06 AM

no i think we should have more tags and bitmaps.

jahrain

June 18th, 2007, 02:06 AM

DarkHydroX

June 18th, 2007, 02:41 AM

I think the main problem is that they didn't even include many of the tags referenced in the tutorial/help. It would be great if they provided more content to make maps have more variety like more skyboxes, scenery, etc since they forbid the creation of custom models.

Yeah, it's pretty sad to only give users a limited selection of resources to work with and then tell them they can't make their own stuff.

Mr Buckshot

June 18th, 2007, 02:48 AM

jahrain

June 18th, 2007, 04:36 AM

I been researching the h2 guerrilla tag structures, they are much more simpler and easier to read than h1 guerrilla's tags. So a tag converter may be something coming in the near future as there is a higher demand for it than there was for CE.

Kornman00

June 18th, 2007, 05:53 AM

What's more insulting is that Bungie/HG talked about how they really wanted to support user-created content during early comments (right after announcing the game). Well, it looks like they were hypocrites.

Isn't it funny how Bungie was publicly gungho about the port at the very beginning then come the near year some magical event seemed to have taken place and then they disowned it :downs:

News year resolutions maybe? :lmao:

TheGhost

June 18th, 2007, 06:19 AM

I think it would've been much better if they had the tags for every map like the first halo Tags, instead of just tags for the example map.

What? Hundreds of tags had to be extracted from the maps to access those tags. This wasn't possible until over a year after release.

Dr Nick

June 18th, 2007, 05:02 PM

I understand that, but wouldn't they have to make the tags to make the maps?

bum has knife

June 18th, 2007, 05:47 PM

Which tags would you like to see released and which are most important considering the restrictions in the tools?

SMASH

June 18th, 2007, 05:53 PM

For me it would be:

1. Scenery
2. Skyboxes

Anyone else got anything?

Dr Nick

June 18th, 2007, 06:01 PM

The map structures, bitmaps, basically the whatever is neded for customizing the original maps.
I don't think it's asking too much.

Choking Victim

June 18th, 2007, 06:12 PM

Personally I'd like to see a variety of grav lifts with different heights, or the ability to make our own. We've been given a single grav lift which kind of restricts the way we make our maps. I've seen some pretty creative ideas the community has spit out but many include the use of a more powerful grav lift or a less powerful one.

FireScythe

June 18th, 2007, 06:57 PM

I would say bitmaps, shaders and skies are the most important, closely followed by scenery, devices and gravlifts (generally alot more objects to populate levels and add gameplay elements).

Con

June 18th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Chewy Gumball

June 18th, 2007, 07:21 PM

Who says it wasn't?

Con

June 18th, 2007, 08:05 PM

edit: Not supposed to tell :X

Masterz1337

June 18th, 2007, 08:12 PM

I can assure you Chewy Conscars speaks the truth.

Chewy Gumball

June 18th, 2007, 08:22 PM

A truthful question? I didn't know questions could be truthful...

Con

June 18th, 2007, 08:32 PM

:poke:Rhetorical question

Dr Nick

June 18th, 2007, 08:34 PM

Rhetorical answer?

Nick

June 18th, 2007, 11:25 PM

So how about this guys.

Instead of bitching that they didn't include all of the tags and materials referenced in the tutorials, someone make a list of what's missing and post it here for them (the H2V devs that browse this forum) to see. They can then try to obtain the missing materials and see if they are authorized to release them in the form of a patch or downloadable archive.

It will not be all the tags from the game, but it will at least resolve the current issue of not having tags and materials referenced by the tutorials and documentation.

Nick

TheGhost

June 18th, 2007, 11:28 PM

Which tags would you like to see released and which are most important considering the restrictions in the tools?

Bitmap and shader tags that were used especially in multiplayer levels would be fantastic. It's one of the newer things (new shader system) so we're not used to it, and we don't have that many examples to model our custom shaders off of. Thus, custom maps won't look as good for a while. Also sky tags would be great because custom ones would be really hard to make.

Zeph

June 19th, 2007, 12:08 AM

Which tags would you like to see released and which are most important considering the restrictions in the tools?

Assuming there will never be support of the rest due to Window Live, I'd have to suggest everything that wouldn't interfere with achievements. Pre-existing multiplayer bsps, such as lockout and etc., recursive scenery tags, recursive fusion cores*, and anything else that's doest fall recursively under a weapon or biped. You did call it a map editor, so why not give it the ability to actually edit maps?

Masterz1337

June 19th, 2007, 12:11 AM

Which tags would you like to see released and which are most important considering the restrictions in the tools?
Render model, physics and collision models are a must have for new crates. Also animation importing would be nice so we could make our own Zanzibar wheel and gate devices. New sound importing would also be nice to have.

Snaver

June 19th, 2007, 06:38 AM

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3277/puurtyuz2.jpg
Awesome shot by T Beezie (http://forums.halomods.com/viewtopic.php?p=627215#627215), over at halomods (http://forums.halomods.com/).

It would be nice to use sky's like these :D

jahrain

June 19th, 2007, 10:15 AM

Con

June 19th, 2007, 11:12 AM

ok, I must have totally missed that part of the game. Where is that?

teh lag

June 19th, 2007, 12:20 PM

I'd like to have more backgound sounds and skies to choose from. I think we'd all love to have some example shaders as well. Scenery would also be wonderful to have more of a choice in; I really would like to get the covenant stationary shields. The fact that you posted asking what we would want in terms of tag means alot to the community. We've felt a bit abandoned, and a developer making even the slightest recognition of our problem, let alone offering to solve it, gives us a real boost in morale.

Also rofl@connie.

p0lar_bear

June 19th, 2007, 12:46 PM

I do not own the game, but I have seen the tagset and H2ME in action.

We really don't have enough tags or capabilities to make an endless supply of customized Halo 2 maps. While I understand that weapon, vehicle, or biped creation/editing is locked due to the LIVE achievements system, I really think that stunting the ability to make custom scenery, crates, and other objects like gravity lifts hurts map creation. It will only be a matter of time before all of the content provided will be used in every way possible.

Also, if locking out any means of creating a render_model, collision_model, or physics_model was done to further hinder the eventual ability of creating gameplay-altering content, then all that does is the equivalent of throwing a garbage can down behind you to block an axe murderer who is chasing you; it'll slow him down, sure, but if he's really dedicated, it won't do enough to stop him. There are already people in this community who are researching the structure of render_model tags to make exporters, and while I can't say this for sure, there very well may be people hacking Guerilla.

So, in cliffnotes: MOAR SCENERY PLZ

jahrain

June 19th, 2007, 01:26 PM

Well I got one of my apps to successfully create a usable h2ek tag to this morning. It wasn't the .render_model, thats coming later, I started with one more simpler, just .bitmap tags. What I did was I wrote an application that translates h1ek .bitmap tags into h2ek .bitmap tags since the tags are VERY similar. Although this sounds useless (which it is), it makes it possible to compile bitmaps larger than 2048x2048 which h2tool is restricted to. I had to do it in order to get my custom rendered lightmap bitmaps to compile. So slowly but steadily, i'm unlocking more locked features of the tool kit without modifying any of the tools.

Anyways, for the .render_models, they too are VERY similar to .gbxmodel tags, so I think I could just make a translator for those tags as well that will convert a .gbxmodel tag into a .render_model tag next. That way we can at least have h1 scenery, or compile custom scenery using h1ek and translate them to h2. It also saves me a whole lot of trouble of having to figure out how to generate binormals, tangent normals, translating 3d euler rotations into 4d quaternion vectors for the bones and nodes, etc....

StankBacon

June 19th, 2007, 01:31 PM

awesome jah!!

jahrain

June 19th, 2007, 01:37 PM

I'l show some stuff off on AIM later, nothings really ready to be posted. Right now I need sleep, been a long night getting these tags structures mapped out.

demonmaster3k

June 19th, 2007, 01:40 PM

bungie really f*cked up with that editing kit, they should have taken more of an EA approach (like bf2) with the h2ek. custom levels aren't ranked and no achievements on non-ranked missions. that way it wouldn't intefere with anything dealing with achievements.

that would have allowed levels to have more than what they currently have... i don't know about you, but after a while everything halo 2 get's boring, and bungie (bieng the idiots that they were rushed and blocked out the potential of the game) nuff said

StankBacon

June 19th, 2007, 01:44 PM

hmm i never thought of that.....

all they had to do was disable achievements in custom maps, and we would have a full fledged editing kit.

TheGhost

June 19th, 2007, 02:02 PM

What's the big deal with achievements on custom maps? What could you possible to do "cheat" the system?

p0lar_bear

June 19th, 2007, 02:02 PM

all they had to do was disable achievements in custom maps, and we would have a full fledged editing kit.

Why do you not work for Microsoft?

...oh wait, that suggestion actually makes sense. I forgot that making sense is actually grounds for getting fired in any job today.

What's the big deal with achievements on custom maps? What could you possible to do "cheat" the system?I fire a nuke weapon at a densely populated area. Hello Double Kill, Triple Kill, Killtacular, Kill Frenzy, Killtrocity, Killimanjaro, and Killing Spree achievements, as well as possibly Flaming Ninja, Counterpoint, Skewer Stopper, Air Traffic Control, Decorated Soldier, and Hired Gun acheivements. http://www.xbox360achievements.org/achievements.php?gameID=198

Then again, what's stopping players from setting up these achievements anyway in a normal map. Get 16 buddies and have them let you kill them so you get the achievements.

TheGhost

June 19th, 2007, 02:14 PM

Exactly, and we can already do that right now. I'm saying getting custom models to show up in game isn't cheating anything.

Choking Victim

June 19th, 2007, 02:29 PM

What's the big deal with achievements on custom maps? What could you possible to do "cheat" the system?
I beat the game on legendary then i made a custom map to get used to the tools, I fell off a cliff and I got an achievement, I looked later and it was the hired gun achievement. This isn't really anything like firing a nuke at the ground to get a killtacular, it was merely a hilarious accident in my benefit. That was my greatest experience with halo 2 vista so far. :)

bum has knife

June 19th, 2007, 03:41 PM

Thanks for the help guys. Keep them coming.

Also, jahrain:

...it makes it possible to compile bitmaps larger than 2048x2048 which h2tool is restricted to.

bitmaps larger than 2048 break ATI cards. I should know, i hosed our build for a while ;)

I'm excited about what you're doing though, cool stuff.

ejburke

June 19th, 2007, 04:48 PM

Exactly, and we can already do that right now. I'm saying getting custom models to show up in game isn't cheating anything.

It's not all about cheating. Microsoft doesn't want to provide any means of putting outside intellectual property into their game. Which is just ridiculous when you consider that none of the other big PC developers seem to worry about it.

There's a very frustrating Gametrailers .com Bonus Round interview with Aaron Greenberg of Microsoft (Live team) (http://www.gametrailers.com/bonusround.php?ep=6&pt=1) that backs this up.

Zeph

June 19th, 2007, 04:55 PM

What's the big deal with achievements on custom maps? What could you possible to do "cheat" the system?

As I brought to polar's attention seemingly ages ago 100% magnetism, bipeds with the entire mesh set as the head, etc.

p0lar_bear

June 19th, 2007, 05:16 PM

It's not all about cheating. Microsoft doesn't want to provide any means of putting outside intellectual property into their game. Which is just ridiculous when you consider that none of the other big PC developers seem to worry about it.

There's a very frustrating Gametrailers .com Bonus Round interview with Aaron Greenberg of Microsoft (Live team) (http://www.gametrailers.com/bonusround.php?ep=6&pt=1) that backs this up.

Apparently, the shorter the EULA they have to type, the better for them. :/

JDMFSeanP

June 19th, 2007, 05:28 PM

ok, I must have totally missed that part of the game. Where is that?
Its a modded version of acension with the forerunner ship over it and water instead of fog, looks awesome.

SuperSunny

June 19th, 2007, 05:33 PM

Thanks for the help guys. Keep them coming.

Also, jahrain:

bitmaps larger than 2048 break ATI cards. I should know, i hosed our build for a while ;)

I'm excited about what you're doing though, cool stuff.

:D!

Do they really break ATI cards? Halo CE handled my 4096 res textures fine. Different with this?

bum has knife

June 19th, 2007, 05:47 PM

Do they really break ATI cards? Halo CE handled my 4096 res textures fine. Different with this?

Either they do or our graphics dev just told me that to makes me feel bad and do more work. He has a blue mohawk and is pretty feisty, so it certainly could be the latter.

UXB

June 19th, 2007, 06:07 PM

Either they do or our graphics dev just told me that to makes me feel bad and do more work. He has a blue mohawk and is pretty feisty, so it certainly could be the latter. LOL - I suspect that there may also be be a trade off between the high end user experience and the average user's experience, which will be a much lower quality card than the norm for member of this forum. That or the dye job was a mistake you you were a handy target. :)

BTW: Kudos for the forum hopping.

UXB

June 19th, 2007, 06:12 PM

It's not all about cheating. Microsoft doesn't want to provide any means of putting outside intellectual property into their game. Which is just ridiculous when you consider that none of the other big PC developers seem to worry about it.None of the other major game companies have a pay for play distribution system like the Live system. It is one thing to to have auto-downloads of content outside of the company control, like other games, but to actually control the content delivery though Live AND deliver other people's IP for a fee. The lawyers are lining up already for a copyright case.

jahrain

June 19th, 2007, 07:15 PM

Also, jahrain:

bitmaps larger than 2048 break ATI cards. I should know, i hosed our build for a while ;)

I'm excited about what you're doing though, cool stuff.
Lol! Yes, I know, I learned this the hard way. See my map "mystic" for halo CE on certain ATI video cards. The massive 4096 x 2048 skybox bitmap I used was uncompressed and I foolishly set it to use no mitmaps, so yeah, random problems!

Anyways, I'm not really interested in compiling bitmaps that large, I'm actually trying to compile multiple bitmaps into a single bitmap tag for use such as in lightmaps. Each individual bitmap on the blue sheet is less than 2048 x 2048, but it seems as if h2tool reads the size of the original bitmap to restrict it's size, not the actual size of the final processed bitmap(s) in the tag. So if I wanted to make a 2048 x 2048 sized bitmap with a blue boarder around it that will be clipped off by h2tool, it will reject the file even though it's at legal size.

bum has knife

June 19th, 2007, 07:47 PM

Each individual bitmap on the blue sheet is less than 2048 x 2048, but it seems as if h2tool reads the size of the original bitmap to restrict it's size, not the actual size of the final processed bitmap(s) in the tag.

Thanks for pointing that out. It shouldn't apply any restrictions on the source plate image. I would call that a bug so i'm gonna pass that information along.

SuperSunny

June 19th, 2007, 07:49 PM

Either they do or our graphics dev just told me that to makes me feel bad and do more work. He has a blue mohawk and is pretty feisty, so it certainly could be the latter.

No wonder!

Roostervier

June 19th, 2007, 08:33 PM

jahrain

June 19th, 2007, 08:58 PM

Why was my post deleted? Or for some reason was it not posted? If it wasn't, I was saying that I'd like bum has knife to know I appreciate his help. If it was deleted, why? Maybe send me a pm or something? Seriously.

Anyway, yet again, thank you for paying us some mind. About the uberhigh res textures... I don't understand anything higher than 2048^ anyway, that should be high enough =p.I think the moderators have a "Delete random post" buttom somewhere. :P

+2048 sized maps could be used for detailed terrain bitmaps for very large maps mb? The issue was with the restriction on the image plate (the blue sheet which you lay out all your bitmaps on when compiling multiple bitmaps into 1 tag), not the actual bitmaps. So you may have bitmaps smaller than 2048 but they won't compile if the image plate is larger than 2048.

Kornman00

June 19th, 2007, 09:16 PM

I just checked the entire thread FR, and there are *no* deleted or unapproved posts what so ever. Unless one of the *super* admins can do hard deletes (I can only do soft ones, leaving the post still there), sorry.