Graphics Issue?

[Hydrog]

Everything lags behind by about a millisecond or so.. menus, in-game, dashboard, everything.

Is this a graphics card issue or can i fix this with software?

I have a radeon x600 series card, probably not up to snuff but i just want to be sure before i run out and buy an nvidia.

[InnerGoat]

If the framerate is really low then it will do that. VSYNC doesn't help with it either, so make sure it is off.

[Xetsuei]

The video card minimum is a Radeon x700 or above, and nVidia 6150 or above. Your card is x600, so go buy a real graphics card.

[Hydrog]

lol. Thanks guys!

newegg here i come...

[Mr Buckshot]

Radeon X600 can be imagined as a PCI-e version of the 9600 with faster clocks. It's got SM2.0, 4 pipelines, and 128-bit memory, even if the core is not quite the same.

Upgrading is the only way out.

[Hydrog]

Anyone have recommendations for a cheap card?

[Knight]

Heres a few

EVGA 7900 GS KO $149.99 + Rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130056

EVGA 8600 GT $134.99 + Rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130085

EVGA 8600 GTS $174.99 + Rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130085

Personally, i'd go for the 8600 GTS. But if you dont want to find a 6 pin connector, go with the 7900 GS. EVGA gives Lifetime warranty.

[Xetsuei]

Anyone have recommendations for a cheap card?

What is your price range?

[Hydrog]

So i ended up buying a Radeon x1550 - 256mb pciExpress and guess what...

Same damn thing... wtf?

My framerate is still a millisecond behind.. any suggestions? Thanks!

[InnerGoat]

Congrats, that is a slower card.

[Hydrog]

seriously? how?! this is what i get for listening to a jewish know-it-all....

This is why consoles are better than pc's, they're EASY TO USE.

[InnerGoat]

I'm actually not sure if it really is better, but we know for a fact it is a terrible card.

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2098&page=5

[Benfinkel]

Wait a sec...

In what universe is the x1550 a slower card?

The x600, even the XT model, operates the core at 500 Mhz and DDR1 @ 740.

The x1550, in the meantime, is a newer generation prcessor with a core speed of 600 Mhz running twice as much RAM, DDR2 @ 800 Mhz.

The x600 runs shader model 2.0b, while the x1550 is shader model 3.0.

Here is a link that has the x1550 running HL2 over 80 FPS:
http://techgage.com/article/sapphire_x1050_and_x1550/3

And this benchmark shows the x600 at no more than 50 FPS:
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/172-5/PowerColor+X600+XT+PCIExpress+128MB/

So, explain to me how the x1550 is a slower card than the x600 please?


JEWS RULE! GOYIMS DROOL!

[Xetsuei]

They both suck regardless, and those are really low resolutions they're running at.

[InnerGoat]

Wait a sec...

In what universe is the x1550 a slower card?

The x600, even the XT model, operates the core at 500 Mhz and DDR1 @ 740.

The x1550, in the meantime, is a newer generation prcessor with a core speed of 600 Mhz running twice as much RAM, DDR2 @ 800 Mhz.

The x600 runs shader model 2.0b, while the x1550 is shader model 3.0.

Here is a link that has the x1550 running HL2 over 80 FPS:
http://techgage.com/article/sapphire_x1050_and_x1550/3

And this benchmark shows the x600 at no more than 50 FPS:
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/172-5/PowerColor+X600+XT+PCIExpress+128MB/

So, explain to me how the x1550 is a slower card than the x600 please?


JEWS RULE! GOYIMS DROOL!I was refering to the x1550 as an inferior product when compared to the x700. Thanks for the info though. :rolleyes:

[Benfinkel]

Ahh, my mistake.


But, to the point above yours, yes they both suck but HL2 source engine at 10x7 80FPS isn't bad.

Do you really think that the Halo 2 engine is more demanding than Source?

[InnerGoat]

H2V is much more demanding, and is really harsh on the lower end cards. :(

As an example, I play CSS at 1920x1200 with AA on, and it plays great. H2V at the same resolution without AA, well, lets just say its starting to affect my aiming. :/

[Xetsuei]

Ahh, my mistake.


But, to the point above yours, yes they both suck but HL2 source engine at 10x7 80FPS isn't bad.

Do you really think that the Halo 2 engine is more demanding than Source?

Halo 2 shouldn't be a demanding engine, but it has been horribly optimized for the PC. On the other hand source is very well optimized, and runs good even on an nVidia GeForce 6150.

[Knight]

Heres a few

EVGA 7900 GS KO $149.99 + Rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130056

EVGA 8600 GT $134.99 + Rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130085

EVGA 8600 GTS $174.99 + Rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130085

Personally, i'd go for the 8600 GTS. But if you dont want to find a 6 pin connector, go with the 7900 GS. EVGA gives Lifetime warranty.
As I said earlier... Your better off with getting one of these cards instead.

If you really want to play DX10 games in the future, go with one of the 8600's.

[Mr Buckshot]

You need to understand the concept of graphics family. A high-end card in a previous generation will beat a low-end card in a next generation.

In this case:

The X600 is in the Radeon X generation - the low-end models are the X300 and X600, the mid-range model is the X700, and the high-end model is the X800.

The X1550 is in the Radeon X1 generation - low end models are the X1300, X1550, mid-range is the X1600, and the high-end is the X1800/X1900.

Therefore, the X1550 will be a little better than the X600 since it's faster and has more RAM plus SM3.0, but it's not much improvement in demanding games.

The X700 would totally kill the X1300 despite the number appearing to be smaller.

Plus H2V is one of the worst console-to-PC ports. It's a system hog and yields nothing in return. It has absurd requirements but does not pay off. It has terrible framerates when other better-looking games can run a lot better.

oh and source is more CPU-dependent than graphics-dependent, so it runs on so many video cards, and even runs well on high-end IGP's.

[Hydrog]

I give up, time to go back to h2 on the 360.

I went out and bought a nvidia 7100gs, the $64.99 price tag made me wet over the 7800 @ $134.99.

Same thing...

So to Mr. benfinkel aka the jewish know-it-all. It's not you my friend, i'm a cheeze dick... software devs are the biggest hardware nubs. :)

[Benfinkel]

Buckshot,

Whether or not the high-end of a previous generation will beat the low-end of the new generation is on a completely case-by-case basis. Take the highest end of Hyperthreaded Pentium CPUs versus the lowest end Core 2 CPUs. There are plenty of situations where the low end Core 2 will beat the high end Pentium. When the DX8 cards came out a low-end DX8 card would beat a high-end DX7 card almost every time. There isn't some phsyical law on generations that states they have to act in the manner you're describing.

And even if you buy all of that it's all predicated on the consumer knowing that the X700 and X1550 are of different "generations". They could easily be of the same generation with an entire array of X900s, X1000s, and X1200s in between, each gradually more powerful as the numbers seem to indicate. Somehow, you'd have to magically know that the 1 in X1550 was part of the X and not the 550. A google search for "Radeon X1 series" returns 1,710 results, none of which appear to point towards ATI's website, so I'm not even convinced there is an "X1 Generation".

For the average consumer, I don't see how this makes any sense. I'm fairly knowledgeable about this stuff and I still found it pretty confusing. The specas are about the only thing you've got. The X1550 is a higher clock speed GPU with faster RAM on a faster bus and more of it. Not to mention it was manufactured a couple of years after the release of the X600 so why should it only be slightly more powerful?

[Hydrog]

Holy shit, he does know it all!

42 finkel, forty...two.

[Benfinkel]

Well geez this Buckshot asshat makes it sound as if once you understand these mystical "generations" it all makes sense once again.

And if the 7100 gave you the same problems it sounds like there is something else going on in the menus and stuff. Did you ever get an accurate FPS count in-game?

[Xetsuei]

Buckshot,

Whether or not the high-end of a previous generation will beat the low-end of the new generation is on a completely case-by-case basis. Take the highest end of Hyperthreaded Pentium CPUs versus the lowest end Core 2 CPUs. There are plenty of situations where the low end Core 2 will beat the high end Pentium. When the DX8 cards came out a low-end DX8 card would beat a high-end DX7 card almost every time. There isn't some phsyical law on generations that states they have to act in the manner you're describing.

And even if you buy all of that it's all predicated on the consumer knowing that the X700 and X1550 are of different "generations". They could easily be of the same generation with an entire array of X900s, X1000s, and X1200s in between, each gradually more powerful as the numbers seem to indicate. Somehow, you'd have to magically know that the 1 in X1550 was part of the X and not the 550. A google search for "Radeon X1 series" returns 1,710 results, none of which appear to point towards ATI's website, so I'm not even convinced there is an "X1 Generation".

For the average consumer, I don't see how this makes any sense. I'm fairly knowledgeable about this stuff and I still found it pretty confusing. The specas are about the only thing you've got. The X1550 is a higher clock speed GPU with faster RAM on a faster bus and more of it. Not to mention it was manufactured a couple of years after the release of the X600 so why should it only be slightly more powerful?

Uh, if you go on newegg in the graphics card section, click on GPU and then it gives you a list. Two of those options are Radeon X Series and Radeon X1K Series. Hmmm.... Also, just because the ram and core speeds are faster doesnt mean its better/more powerful. Lets take a look at the GeForce 8600GTS and the 8800GTX. The core for 8600GTS is 675mhz and the memory is 1ghz. With the 8800GTX the core is 575mhz and the memory is 900mhz. Does that mean that the 8600GTS is better than the 8800GTX? Hell no!

[Mr Buckshot]

Buckshot,

Whether or not the high-end of a previous generation will beat the low-end of the new generation is on a completely case-by-case basis. Take the highest end of Hyperthreaded Pentium CPUs versus the lowest end Core 2 CPUs. There are plenty of situations where the low end Core 2 will beat the high end Pentium. When the DX8 cards came out a low-end DX8 card would beat a high-end DX7 card almost every time. There isn't some phsyical law on generations that states they have to act in the manner you're describing.

And even if you buy all of that it's all predicated on the consumer knowing that the X700 and X1550 are of different "generations". They could easily be of the same generation with an entire array of X900s, X1000s, and X1200s in between, each gradually more powerful as the numbers seem to indicate. Somehow, you'd have to magically know that the 1 in X1550 was part of the X and not the 550. A google search for "Radeon X1 series" returns 1,710 results, none of which appear to point towards ATI's website, so I'm not even convinced there is an "X1 Generation".

For the average consumer, I don't see how this makes any sense. I'm fairly knowledgeable about this stuff and I still found it pretty confusing. The specas are about the only thing you've got. The X1550 is a higher clock speed GPU with faster RAM on a faster bus and more of it. Not to mention it was manufactured a couple of years after the release of the X600 so why should it only be slightly more powerful?

I'm aware that my "generation" theory does not apply to CPUs - I was talking about modern video cards.

However, in the case of a DirectX transition, the matters change.

[Hydrog]

So let's say i go buy an 8800GT and experience the same issues... what else could possibly cause this slowdown?

I have vista tuned for gaming/performance, not a single app or service is running that doesn't need to be.

[Benfinkel]

Xetsuei™;85710']Also, just because the ram and core speeds are faster doesnt mean its better/more powerful. Lets take a look at the GeForce 8600GTS and the 8800GTX. The core for 8600GTS is 675mhz and the memory is 1ghz. With the 8800GTX the core is 575mhz and the memory is 900mhz. Does that mean that the 8600GTS is better than the 8800GTX? Hell no!


So,

X700 > X1550 while X8600 < X8800. Core clock speeds don't matter, neither do amounts of RAM, ram bus speed or pixel pipes except of course when they do matter. A DX transition does matter, but the age of the engine of the game does not, in this case, come into play. There are some "series" changes in there, but you wouldn't know from the manufacturer, just from one online retailer.

On what criteria, besides running the game in question with various cards, can you make an educated guess at how well a card will run it?

[Xetsuei]

So,

X700 > X1550 while X8600 < X8800. Core clock speeds don't matter, neither do amounts of RAM, ram bus speed or pixel pipes except of course when they do matter. A DX transition does matter, but the age of the engine of the game does not, in this case, come into play. There are some "series" changes in there, but you wouldn't know from the manufacturer, just from one online retailer.

On what criteria, besides running the game in question with various cards, can you make an educated guess at how well a card will run it?

You don't quite seem to understand. You were the one going all of on how the X1550 has faster ram and core speeds than the X700, so it must be better. You also don't seem to get what buckshot is saying, that a mid range card in one generation will beat a low end card in the next generation. Also, it's not X8600 or X8800, its 8600GTS and 8800GTX. ATi and nVidia are different.

[Amit]

OK do yourself a favour and get a good graphics card so you won't have more problems. This game demands more than it should but we can't change that. Running out and buying a 7100GS does not mean it will work better than that crap geforce 6150 in your motherboard. You need to buy at least a geforce 7600GS to play this game with some decent framerates.

[Roostervier]

So,

X700 > X1550 while X8600 < X8800. Core clock speeds don't matter, neither do amounts of RAM, ram bus speed or pixel pipes except of course when they do matter. A DX transition does matter, but the age of the engine of the game does not, in this case, come into play. There are some "series" changes in there, but you wouldn't know from the manufacturer, just from one online retailer.

On what criteria, besides running the game in question with various cards, can you make an educated guess at how well a card will run it?

Not so much of a literal know-it-all now, huh =p. Buckshot does have a point, we aren't dealing with CPUs here. Do not make examples of a device other than the ones on hand. Yes, DX does play a hand in this, though, when it comes to getting two DX9 cards, Buckshot has ground to stand on. A high end last series card, considering it is using the same version of direct x, will beat a low end new series card. Do not be fooled by the label of last series, or series at all for that matter. All the series in a group of cards that are all in the same Direct X version is really all one series. Also, you don't have theories when it is backed up by experience with the performance.

Now, educated guesses are educated guess. It is not a fact set in stone. If there is experience with other cards on the same game, than it is the logical guess that the card that performed better on the other game will still perform better on the newer game. We do not know this, but with an educated guess, it seems logical. And it is probably right. Again, this is not fact, that is why it is called an educated guess. The only criteria needed is a test or an experience with said cards on other games, and the experiences are not hard to come by on the internet.

[4RT1LL3RY]

I'll put it in simple terms for graphics cards. When you have a new generation of graphics cards and several older card, but they have the same Direct X type. The high end of the older model will beat the low and middle model of the next generation. ATI uses a retarded numbering system. With nVidia it makes more sense.
Also a word of advice. NEVER BUY THE NEW LOW END CARDS. The x800 GTO kicks the x1300's ass. You always want to get eitehr a medium or high end card if you do gaming other wise your wasting money. Also it might not be your graphics card that is causing problems, you might not have enough RAM, your CPU may be bottlenecking your system, virus and trojans, etc.

[Amit]

I'll put it in simple terms for graphics cards. When you have a new generation of graphics cards and several older card, but they have the same Direct X type. The high end of the older model will beat the low and middle model of the next generation. ATI uses a retarded numbering system. With nVidia it makes more sense.
Also a word of advice. NEVER BUY THE NEW LOW END CARDS. The x800 GTO kicks the x1300's ass. You always want to get eitehr a medium or high end card if you do gaming other wise your wasting money. Also it might not be your graphics card that is causing problems, you might not have enough RAM, your CPU may be bottlenecking your system, virus and trojans, etc.

Excellent points.

[Hydrog]

I did end up getting a 7600gs yesterday, and after a few dozen blue screens, reboots and driver attempts it just magically began working.

I'm shocked at how smooth it runs and pleasantly surprised at how responsive the LIVE dashboard is compared to the 360. This should hold me over until Sep. 25th!

Thanks for your help gents.

[Amit]

Excellent.