Free Will - Do we have it?

[Sel]

This is a question Ive been looking at throughout my life. Having christian parents, they believe in an all powerful god. A part of being all powerful would include knowing everything that anyone is ever going to do, which would mean our lives are pre determined. Some questions from Waking life are still fresh in my head, so Ill ask them here.

If our lives are pre determined, how can anyone be held guilty, or congratulated for anything they do? If a god has already predetermined your entire life then nothing you do was on your own.

So really, if theres a god we cant have free will can we?

Id like to think that my actions are my own, and this is probably the biggest cause to my being an atheist.

What do you guys think?

[TheGhost]

You are just a probability wave in free space.

[thehoodedsmack]

Babble

You're mixing all knowing gods with all powerful gods. Pick one. With an all knowing god, you can still be held responsible for your actions. Just because God knew you would do something doesn't mean he made you do it. Either way, it's nonsense. You have free will.

[Sel]

Yes but if he knows what Im going to do before I know Im going to do it, or do it, then my path is already set out and Its clearly not my decision :downs:

[Mass]

Not really, the decision has already been made in a way. But it's already been made by you.

[Corndogman]

your parents being Christian should have told you that it says in the bible that god gave man the power of free will. god is all powerful and all-knowing, but he doesn't pre-determine what happens. You could think of it like hes some kind of psychic, and knows what you are going to do.

also, REPENT OR YOU WILL BURN IN HELL!!!

just kidding, I wouldn't try to force Christianity down your throat like that.

[Bodzilla]

Angels on the sidelines
Baffled and amused.
why did farther give these humans free will?
Now there all confused.

[Masterz1337]

Everyone else has it but you. It's because you joined CMT.

[ICEE]

Well I think if your fate is predetermined, then you are predetermined to be punished for your wrongdoing anyways. But in the end, who cares? We're all just speckles in space so why stress about anything? God, No god, Satan, No Satan, I don't bother to think about it because I'm not there yet. If everyone just made the most of their life without worrying or caring about "big" issues like this the world would be an infinitely better place.

[Sel]

Everyone else has it but you. It's because you joined CMT.

Oh thats why D:

[Llama Juice]

I had this discussion with my super crazy ultra religious friend (he's memorized like 12 of the books of the bible or something... word for word)


He said that God grants free will, so we can make our own choices... even though he knows what choices we're going to make.

It didn't make any sense to me... and he said that's where "faith" comes in.

I'm an atheist.

So... I asked a forum friend....
thejuicyllama
Hey there, I have a question
thejuicyllama
You're educated in all things christianity right?
cascadegame03
Yes, sir
cascadegame03
Or ma'am
thejuicyllama
Sir
cascadegame03
OK,sir
thejuicyllama
anyhow, do we have free will?
cascadegame03
Yes, we do
thejuicyllama
even though God knows everything that we're going to do?
cascadegame03
Yes..
thejuicyllama
How does that work exactly
cascadegame03
What does God's knowledge of what we're gonna do have to do with our free will?
thejuicyllama
If he knows what we're going to do... then doesn't that make our choices predetermined?
cascadegame03
His knowldge has absoultely no effect on what we do
cascadegame03
No
cascadegame03
It's like this:
cascadegame03
Lets say you go to an ice cream shop
cascadegame03
and let's say u have a daughter
cascadegame03
named ...Sara
cascadegame03
And u know Sara loves vanilla ice cream
cascadegame03
and when u take her to an ice cream shop
cascadegame03
she looks at all the other choices thoroughly
cascadegame03
but in the end u know she's gonna choose vanilla
cascadegame03
and let's say she ends up doing it
cascadegame03
what effect did ur pre-knowledge have on her decision?
cascadegame03
Nothing
cascadegame03
U just KNOW what she's gonna choose
thejuicyllama
Are you implying that I'm God?
cascadegame03
But ur knowledge of that doesnt affect it
cascadegame03
Not at all!!!!
thejuicyllama
There's a difference there.
cascadegame03
Im just putting it in perspective
cascadegame03
Its the same sot of thing
cascadegame03
Yes , He knows
cascadegame03
all ur decisions and thoughts
cascadegame03
before u even think them
cascadegame03
But his knowledghe
cascadegame03
Doenst unfluence
cascadegame03
influence*
thejuicyllama
That doesn't make sense
thejuicyllama
at all
cascadegame03
....But it's true
cascadegame03
How doesnt it make sense?
cascadegame03
I even used an example
cascadegame03
HE KNOWS WHAT YOUR GOING TO DO, BUT HE DOESNT MAKE YOU DO IT
cascadegame03
YOU'RE*
cascadegame03
YOU do it
cascadegame03
He just KNOWS it's going to happen
thejuicyllama
so then... do you belive in fate?
thejuicyllama
believe* rather
cascadegame03
Explain fate
cascadegame03
Because so many ppl have different definitions
thejuicyllama
well I guess the better question is that do you believe that your life is pre planned?
cascadegame03
Ok
cascadegame03
Well
cascadegame03
Yes
cascadegame03
God does have a perfect will for your life
cascadegame03
But if you don't want His will
thejuicyllama
then doesn't that take away "free" will?
cascadegame03
No
cascadegame03
Because you can choose to diverge from God's plan
thejuicyllama
but he'd know that you're going to do that
cascadegame03
You can be a sinful being and live life in separation from God
cascadegame03
Yes, but He wouldn't be the cuase of you doing it
cascadegame03
He didn't plan for it to happen
cascadegame03
My answer is:
cascadegame03
Yes, I do believ ein fate for those who follow God
cascadegame03
I believe that all those who don't believe in the Lord, Jesus Christ as their savior all have the same fate - and that's an eternity in Hell
thejuicyllama
That's not very nice for an all loving being.
thejuicyllama
but that's just my opinion
cascadegame03
But for those who love God, their creator - and accept Jesus as Lord, their eventual fate is Heaven
cascadegame03
It's not about being "nice" its being just
cascadegame03
Its also not "nice"
cascadegame03
for people
cascadegame03
to reject their personal savior
cascadegame03
Who was pinned to a wooden cross
cascadegame03
For your sins
cascadegame03
And yet you choose to reject Him anyways
thejuicyllama
for my sins that I hadn't committed yet
cascadegame03
...?
cascadegame03
Everyone has sinned
cascadegame03
You're no different, trust me
thejuicyllama
yea, but he died 1980? years ago
thejuicyllama
or...
cascadegame03
Why do atheists do that?
thejuicyllama
does it start counting after his death?
cascadegame03
They only recognize what they want
cascadegame03
He didn't just die
cascadegame03
He was resurrected
cascadegame03
Because he conquered death
thejuicyllama
that's very chuck norris of him

[Sel]

If he knows what choices were gonna make, then there is no free will, its simple as that.

Also, bible contradictions seem to happen quite a lot :|

[Anton]

If he knows what choices were gonna make, then there is no free will, its simple as that.

Also, bible contradictions seem to happen quite a lot :|

I agree with you sexy man.

In all seriousness, it's all hard to comprehend. So many contradictions D:

[Sel]

And then theres the part about almost the entire religion being copied and pasted from Paganism and a slew of other less important religions :o

[CN3089]

If he knows what choices were gonna make, then there is no free will, its simple as that.

No it's not. He knows what choices you're going to make, but that doesn't change that you're the one making them (although I'm an atheist so all this is a hypothetical to me). Also you forgot your apostrophes there. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-nazi.gif

[ultama121]

*Agrees with Cn*

[paladin]

Go read 1984

[blind]

Hypothetical.
Its like he completely knows your personality and every intricate working of your inner psyche so he can extrapolate exactly what you're going to do even before you do it; in short, he knows what you're going to think at that particular moment and what decision you will most likely make based on your personality.

IF he was real, that is.

[Sel]

Hypothetical.
Its like he completely knows your personality and every intricate working of your inner psyche so he can extrapolate exactly what you're going to do even before you do it; in short, he knows what you're going to think at that particular moment and what decision you will most likely make based on your personality.

IF he was real, that is.

Blind youre the last one I would have ever expected to hear that from, I was expecting one of your typical posts :-3

I agree completely.

[SnaFuBAR]

I'm getting kinda sick of these kinds of threads. How about you people go take some classes and get educated on the subjects rather than debating it on forums?

[Mass]

Go read 1984
Then he'll understand that he lacks free will and is doomed to be stomped on by a rubber boot for eternity?

[Corndogman]

God created every aspect of you and therefore knows how you think and everything you do. Lets say you are going to make a choice about something at some point, say what kind of car you are going to but. you have a choice between the red one and the blue one. you may be planning on buying the red one, but you end up changing your mind at the last second. god knows that you will.

it sorta just boils down to Faith. yea Faith...

also, my friend on aim had this to say:

god lives out side of Time

[TeeKup]

God told me to be Gay, cause I don't have a free will. He also tells me to masturbate. :downs:

[SnaFuBAR]

If he knows what choices were gonna make, then there is no free will, its simple as that.

Also, bible contradictions seem to happen quite a lot :|
knowing =! controling. i think the whole problem with your perception is the fact that you can't distinguish things properly. like i said, go get an education in the matter.

[Mass]

Like I said, just because it's going to happen already doesn't mean you aren't what caused it to happen.

[Corndogman]

ok i think ive come up with a bit of an explanation, thats easy to understand.

Lets say there is some sort of "time line" literally. like a long tube that time moves through, like the quote from my friend in my previous post said, God is outside of the time line. We are inside of the time line moving through the "tube." God is just sitting there watching the time line go, and sees the decisions we make, but if we decide to change it he can see the change in the time line, but hes looking ahead at it even though it hasnt happened in our lives yet.

Oh god i cant stop.

but what if there are alternate reality's? maybe in another version of the same reality we make a different choice.

Butterfly Effect.

we're really digging in deep now....

[il Duce Primo]

^ semi reminds me of Donnie Darko

[Anton]

My mind is like woah, and It hurts.

I get it though, because I am me, and I get things.

Butterfly effect? What does that have to do with timelines? ..scratch that.

[CN3089]

ok i think ive come up with a bit of an explanation, thats easy to understand.

Lets say there is some sort of "time line" literally. like a long tube that time moves through, like the quote from my friend in my previous post said, God is outside of the time line. We are inside of the time line moving through the "tube." God is just sitting there watching the time line go, and sees the decisions we make, but if we decide to change it he can see the change in the time line, but hes looking ahead at it even though it hasnt happened in our lives yet.

Oh god i cant stop.

but what if there are alternate reality's? maybe in another version of the same reality we make a different choice.

Butterfly Effect.

we're really digging in deep now....

counter-point: God doesn't exist http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-banjo.gif

[legionaire45]

Read. (http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/)

I'm going to stay neutral in this little argument (regarding the existence of god) since I don't want to try and force my views down other people's throats, but I think that god can not be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time; if he was omniscient then he would know all that would happen and would be forced to comply with it. This would mean that he is not omnipotent because he would have no power over his or anyone else's fate. God has shown traits more associated with omnipotence then with omniscience, so I have come to the conclusion that god does not know what the future holds for us and as a result we do in fact have free will.

Omni-benevolence is different however. What happens to a person if they believe in X god or goddess when they reach the pearly gates to be judged? Are they sent to hell because nobody told them that the god that there were worshiping was false, even if they lived a life completely void of sin? That doesn't sound very like a very nice thing to do. And what if the situation was reversed? Would that god judge us the same?

Assuming that god does know everything that will happen and that we are given the choice to do what we want, then how can god be an omni-benevolent being? Why would God pick and choose some individuals to enter heaven while simultaneously damning the rest from the moment they are born? That's not a very fair thing for a perfect and just god to do.
Of course, this assumes that god does in fact exist in the first place.
Food for thought =P.

[klange]

Every single event that occurs has been caused by the movements and other properties and statuses of all particles in the universe since its inception. There is no free will. There is no choice. There is what happens. Just as there are no random numbers, there is no random behavior. Stimuli and response. Even if you decided to do something strange and out of the ordinary, it is solely due to a set of impulses in your brain caused by an outside stimuli and the precise locations, velocities, energy levels, etc. of all other particles.


No. You have no free will.

[Con]

there is no random behavior
Alot of physicists would say otherwise, but your idea still works. I agree. Technically, what happens happens and we weren't pulling any strings.

[CN3089]

Every single event that occurs has been caused by the movements and other properties and statuses of all particles in the universe since its inception. There is no free will. There is no choice. There is what happens. Just as there are no random numbers, there is no random behavior. Stimuli and response. Even if you decided to do something strange and out of the ordinary, it is solely due to a set of impulses in your brain caused by an outside stimuli and the precise locations, velocities, energy levels, etc. of all other particles.


No. You have no free will.

sry, nop


You're making the same mistake as previous posters, just because the choices you make may be predetermined, they're still choices (since you aren't omniscient (I'm assuming you're not omniscient)).


Also the universe isn't deterministic so that argument falls through anyway what up quantum physics

[Random]

Every single event that occurs has been caused by the movements and other properties and statuses of all particles in the universe since its inception. There is no free will. There is no choice. There is what happens. Just as there are no random numbers, there is no random behavior. Stimuli and response. Even if you decided to do something strange and out of the ordinary, it is solely due to a set of impulses in your brain caused by an outside stimuli and the precise locations, velocities, energy levels, etc. of all other particles.


No. You have no free will.

So is the cat in the box dead or alive ?:gonk:

[SnaFuBAR]

Every single event that occurs has been caused by the movements and other properties and statuses of all particles in the universe since its inception. There is no free will. There is no choice. There is what happens. Just as there are no random numbers, there is no random behavior. Stimuli and response. Even if you decided to do something strange and out of the ordinary, it is solely due to a set of impulses in your brain caused by an outside stimuli and the precise locations, velocities, energy levels, etc. of all other particles.


No. You have no free will.
except there's always more than one choice to make. :v: hurf de durf. no free will my ass.

[Random]

except there's always more than one choice to make. :v: hurf de durf. no free will my ass.

Yah but you were going to make the choice you made all along, it was Predestined :o

[nooBBooze]

Sure you do have free will. You maybe just a variable in the chaos theory but that makes you life no less unique. even though your decicions may be the reaction to a infinite chain of actions+reactions, doesn't change the fact that every unconsidered moment feels like the consequence of free will [+ maybe some immediate influences].

also, Camus.
EDIT: whats up with all those hurf durf ima philosophical hurr threads lately?


Also the universe isn't deterministic so that argument falls through anyway what up quantum physics
elaborate plox. i thought the einsteinian universe is pretty much deterministic and while some aspects of quantum physics are indeed appearantly "random" they have no influence whatsoever on the einsteinian universe [don't know of thats the correct term]
inb4 grammar NSDAP

[CN3089]

EDIT: whats up with all those hurf durf ima philosophical hurr threads lately?

4/20 aftershocks http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-2bong.png

[Zeph]

You're mixing all knowing gods with all powerful gods. Pick one. With an all knowing god, you can still be held responsible for your actions. Just because God knew you would do something doesn't mean he made you do it. Either way, it's nonsense. You have free will.
That's the thing with the christian belief. God is all knowing and with that knowledge created the heavens and the earth with the knowledge of exactly what would happen. The two powers overlap as your decisions are stemming from the initial act of creation as a response.

[Assault&Battery]

This thread hurts my brain...

[Pyong Kawaguchi]

Even though Im christian, I still believe in some sciences, And I think that a predertermined future may be possible, simply because, if our brains actions are a bunch of chemical reactions, are brains will create the same exact chemical reactions each time a couple of chemicals are mixed and such, thus meaning the same brain and body movements happen each time, but here is when choice comes in, but this is only with the possibility of one spirtitual thing, the soul, if the soul does exist, the soul is controlling all of the chemical reactions that occur, thus making your future non predetermined.
also as a somewhat side note, I believe time travel into the past is impossible due to the law of conservation of matter stating that matter cannot be created or destroyed, so going into the past would create matter in that time period, making it impossible to go into the past. Though travel to the future may be possible, due to Einstiens theory of relativity.

[thehoodedsmack]

Though travel to the future may be possible, due to Einstiens theory of relativity.

I think that involves going faster than the speed of light. Good luck getting your body to handle that.

[nooBBooze]

Even though Im christian, I still believe in some sciences, And I think that a predertermined future may be possible, simply because, if our brains actions are a bunch of chemical reactions, are brains will create the same exact chemical reactions each time a couple of chemicals are mixed and such, thus meaning the same brain and body movements happen each time, but here is when choice comes in, but this is only with the possibility of one spirtitual thing, the soul, if the soul does exist, the soul is controlling all of the chemical reactions that occur, thus making your future non predetermined.

I dont get it.
Hows that soul thing controling body chemicals. like it "decides" wheter stress hormones should flow? it decides how i digest what? theres a brain regions for that you know. i doubt that it can act at random and if it doesn't, yes thats right, its influenced by the exterior and therefore a variable in the chaos theory. this of course means the concept of "sin" makes no sense at all unless of course that magic man in the sky is a cruel and cynic one.
btw i think i sound more cynical than i intended to. have a random emoticon to make up for it :f5:
also, im on a timetravel into the future one second at a time.
fuck yeah, i might add.

[blind]

ALTERNATIVELY
You have no free will because everything that you will ever do is already predetermined because at any given point in your existance you can only make one choice one way or another.

also god = fakeposter