Gas Problem

[Limited]

When I say gas, I mean oil, petrol, stuff that goes into your vehicle, before any one gets their hopes up..

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1809900,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

In my eyes, people wont stand for this shit, something needs to be done asap, its not a matter of years, a few months and our economy will be fucked. Everything will go up, $11 a gallon? Fuck that, USA pays $4, I understand its likely that you are the ones that processed it, and you had to ship it here, but really $11 for the same amount? Rip off..

Tax isnt doing us any favours, idiots in parliament are considering putting another tax on the petrol, making it go up another 3p per litre....

So yeah, are you guys happy with price of gas? I cant stand it and theres no real easy sollution to it :(

[TeeKup]

OPEC is raising the prices daily. Yes the amount is running out, but not enough to substantially hinder prices like this. At least thats what I heard. I personally think its a form of silent protest against the Western influenced nations, all of the nations in OPEC are either Islamic or just outright hate us so I see that as a viable reason.

[Tweek]

ye, we had a trucker strike here today.

[Limited]

Yeah, since the past week its gone up by 3p. Might not sound alot, but thats per litre and it sure does add up.

Its gone up 40% since January =\

British prime minister said that when he was chancellor (basically the money spending guy) cost per barrel was $10, now hes prime minister its $100 per barrel...WTF?

[SnaFuBAR]

it's not in the middle east's interests to have us crawling around the deserts there. slow down our ability to buy gas, slowly starve the war machine. it's that simple.

[Corndogman]

OPEC is like a bunch of guys from different nations playing poker. They invest in stuff and mess with the prices and try to make more money. at least thats how my dad explained it. theres no reason it should be up to 4$ here in the US, since a lot of our oil is in our own territory, we don't really get as much from the middle eastern nations as people think.

[Matooba]

it's not in the middle east's interests to have us crawling around the deserts there. slow down our ability to buy gas, slowly starve the war machine. it's that simple.

Its not the middle east, its all over.
READ:
In 2007 U.S. refineries produced 90 percent of the gasoline used in the United States. Although the United States is the world’s third largest crude oil producer, less than 35 percent of the crude oil used by U.S. refineries was produced in the United States. Net petroleum imports (imports minus exports) accounted for 58 percent of our total petroleum consumption. About 48 percent of our net petroleum imports were from countries in the Western Hemisphere, 18 percent from the Persian Gulf, 22 percent from Africa, and 12 percent from other regions.
SOURCE (http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasoline/index.html)
Might want to read up on somethings first.....:eyesroll:

In short, we have tons of reserve. If the stupid president would allow some of that to be released we would actually have a drop in pump prices.

[Mr Buckshot]

And don't forget, Antarctica and much of Canada (including Alberta) have potentially large oil reserves that are not yet tapped. Alberta is rich in petroleum and natural gas. The northern areas of Canada are not even developed and it is quite likely that they sit on top of oil wells.

Antarctica was once attached to Pangea and teemed with prehistoric organisms, so it definitely has large quantities of oil under all the ice.

Regardless of oil amounts, it's still good to not use gasoline at all. Any of you guys drive diesels or hybrids? Even those are becoming less lenient on the wallet.

[Con]

I hear the BC coast has some big reserves too

[kenney001]

http://www.ac-nancy-metz.fr/enseign/anglais/Henry/Bicycle.jpg

[TeeKup]

And don't forget, Antarctica and much of Canada (including Alberta) have potentially large oil reserves that are not yet tapped. Alberta is rich in petroleum and natural gas. The northern areas of Canada are not even developed and it is quite likely that they sit on top of oil wells.

Antarctica was once attached to Pangea and teemed with prehistoric organisms, so it definitely has large quantities of oil under all the ice.

Regardless of oil amounts, it's still good to not use gasoline at all. Any of you guys drive diesels or hybrids? Even those are becoming less lenient on the wallet.

You forget that both of those areas are forbidden areas to fuel companies. The US Environmental Protection Agency and US allied Environmental Agencies have secured the authority to ensure they sanctity of those areas for years to come, so they are not an option.

[rossmum]

Oil companies are fucking dicks. I can pass the same petrol station three times in one day and the price can differ by as much as 20c/L. There is no way that's anything other than money-grubbing on their part.

[Zeph]

It's not OPEC's fault or anything. It's Bush's war in the middle east and the subsequent money the mints have put into circulation. The price of gas is relatively the same. The value of the US dollar is just way down and the economy is trying to cope with it and figure out just how valuable they are in the US dollar. It'll start with gas, move into food, move into entertainment, move into electronics, and then move into services.

[Rob Oplawar]

I think tha-

owait, politics.

nvm.

btw, kenney, epic post.

[CN3089]

You forget that both of those areas are forbidden areas to fuel companies. The US Environmental Protection Agency and US allied Environmental Agencies have secured the authority to ensure they sanctity of those areas for years to come, so they are not an option.

What? Neither Antarctica nor Canada is in the jurisdiction of either of those agencies (but nobody's going to let anybody claim Antarctica, even if there is oil there).



Also, stop complaining about OPEC or the oil companies. They have every right (and in the corporations' case, an obligation) to charge what will gain them the most profits. If you're unhappy with the prices, don't use as much. Mainstream plug-in hybrids/full-electric cars are just around the corner, anyway.


Also, screw you Russia, we're taking the arctic and it's sweet, sweet energy reserves and you can't have any http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-colbert.gif http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-capatriot.gif

[TeeKup]

What? Neither Antarctica nor Canada is in the jurisdiction of either of those agencies (but nobody's going to let anybody claim Antarctica, even if there is oil there).

No but they have the authority to prevent U.S. based petrol companies to go near them.

[ima_from_America]

Fully Electric Cars.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Jamais_contente.jpg

[Flyboy]

it's not in the middle east's interests to have us crawling around the deserts there. slow down our ability to buy gas, slowly starve the war machine. it's that simple.
Right, but it is someone else's agenda I can assure you that. We're screwed, it's that simple. Prices aren't going to go down and gas is going to drop the entire world economy down to nothing, it's the central recourse these days. It goes up, everything else goes up. No has the money to pay for everything else however thanks to inflation, and economic collapse ensues. If anyone has any particular interest in how this is a complete scam, take a look at this (http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/peakoil.html). Oil isn't rising because we're running out my friends. This shit goes real deep, litterally.

[Bodzilla]

Look the hole things a crock of shit tbh.

It's just the bastards Squeezing us dry for every drop while they still can. Look i dont have a source to back it up, but i'm dead certain there was some evidence that at the current rate of consumption we'll use it all within 20 years.
and we use more and more every year.......

But it still wouldnt be that bad if the Tax on petrol in most countrys wasnt based on a percentage. The higher the cost of petrol, the more money the government makes.

To put it simply they have no incentive to do anything about it.
(whats the word i'm looking at here, It's like a breach of professionalism. E.g. a therapist cant treat a person who was going out with her son.)

Theres some stations in Brisbane i think where the fella that owns them decided he'd had enough of the bullshit with the prices so he decided to only take 2 cents on top of every L of petrol and his prices dropped back to something like like $1 a litre.

and Diesel is more expensive in australia, because the goverment made a (i think) 30 cent rebate for ever litre for farmers. To stop the price of petrol hurting them so much.
so they put up the price of diesel up by 30 cents.

>_<

[Limited]

Also, stop complaining about OPEC or the oil companies. They have every right (and in the corporations' case, an obligation) to charge what will gain them the most profits. If you're unhappy with the prices, don't use as much. Mainstream plug-in hybrids/full-electric cars are just around the corner, anyway.
Shell made £13.9 billion ($27.5 billion) profit last year. Thats £1 bil+ a month. They made £1.9 mil an hour for the whole year...Can you say, rip off?

Bush stealing middle east's oil isnt helping the situation....people are getting greedy, and the war is finally taking the financial toll on things.

Cost of the Iraqi war is over 1 trillion dollars, you dont just find 1 trillion laying on the ground.

[Flyboy]

It's more than just greed, all this is tied together with 9-11 for control. You control the price of oil, you can control the price of basically everything. If you can control the price of everything you can control people. And we all know where that goes. This isn't the oil companies seizing an opportunity, this is an effort for world power (call me crazy, hell I probably am). Based on 9-11 this stuff has been planned out for years by major players, and there ain't any way to stop it. If I say any more I want to I'll likely get crucified by all you guys so I'll just shut up and wait for the shunning.

[Timo]

The price here has gone up almost 20c since I last filled up the car a few weeks ago :| But even though everyone's having a fit about the prices down here, there doesn't seem to be any less cars on the road. Sure, some people need cars to travel large distances to work, but everything in my town is almost in walking distance.


Shell made £13.9 billion ($27.5 billion) profit last year. Thats £1 bil+ a month. They made £1.9 mil an hour for the whole year...Can you say, rip off?


Don't that they then spent a lot of that on research and development for alternative sources of energy, finding new sources of oil and etc?

[CN3089]

Shell made £13.9 billion ($27.5 billion) profit last year. Thats £1 bil+ a month. They made £1.9 mil an hour for the whole year...Can you say, rip off?

Do you understand that the entire point of business is to make money? Or do you just not like capitalism? http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-911.gif

(full disclosure i'm biased as fuck because Canada has the world's second largest oil reserves http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-capatriot.gif)


It's more than just greed, all this is tied together with 9-11 for control. You control the price of oil, you can control the price of basically everything. If you can control the price of everything you can control people. And we all know where that goes. This isn't the oil companies seizing an opportunity, this is an effort for world power (call me crazy, hell I probably am). Based on 9-11 this stuff has been planned out for years by major players, and there ain't any way to stop it. If I say any more I want to I'll likely get crucified by all you guys so I'll just shut up and wait for the shunning.

yeah man bu$h did 9/11

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gif
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/i_want_to_believe-web.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-tinfoil.gif

fyt da powa http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-downswords.gif

[p0lar_bear]

Christ, $20 into my gas tank today and I didn't even hit half a tank. I got my car last year and $20 usually hit about 7/8 of a tank.

Also, keep conspiracy theories to a minimum in here. :cop:

[kenney001]

same here....

[legionaire45]

Saudi Arabia is the biggest reason gas prices are so high. If they wanted to they could open the taps on their wells and drown every other country in the world in dirt cheap oil. They don't only because they know that they can keep prices insanely high because they can produce so much oil for so cheap that they can artificially limit supply and make oil really expensive to their gain. However, even the Saudis know that within the next 25 to 30 years the world will hit peak production and oil will become more and more expensive to collect, even in oil rich S.A.

However, saying Bush staged 9/11 to raise oil prices and somehow make a profit is completely silly. What the United States has wanted since the Oil Embargoes of the later 1970's has always been long term stability in the Middle East. The United States has been planning various invasions of Iraq since the 1970's because Saddam Hussein was always a nasty character who made the region unstable. While a horrific staged terrorist attack on the US certainly sounds like a good way to start a war with "Terrorism" (which is a cause of price fluctuation) it really isn't. All that that would do is cause prices to become volatile, something we do not want. Hell, I remember reading something about Dick Cheney saying that the only way to secure oil prices in the Middle East was to invade Iraq and depose Saddam at some point in the near future. This was the exact same reason that we had the Gulf War in the 1990's - Saddam invaded Kuwait and this caused prices to become volatile. The Bush administration's foreign policy in the Middle East revolves around keeping the region stable through heavy handed Imperialism, which ends up pissing off angry, unemployed Muslim teenagers. This causes more volatility and repeats the cycle. Things will keep on getting worse and worse until this clueless bastard in office realizes that besides making America look like a bunch of bossy assholes, it just makes things worse. Oh wait, too late, he's about to be kicked out thank god :D.Things probably won't change much though no matter who enters office.

This is why I say get rid of oil as a major fuel source entirely, and soon. At the moment, even if we completely stop our carbon emissions we will still see massive climate change - its already far too late to stop this. However, I don't want to be around on the day that oil is too expensive to buy, the petrostates have either collapsed or are busy destroying each other, America is devastated by terrorists because of our heavy handed foreign policy and our way of life is destroyed.

[nooBBooze]

Antarctica was once attached to Pangea and teemed with prehistoric organisms, so it definitely has large quantities of oil under all the ice.

I think as of now, no nation is allowed to station troops in antarcitca or claim any of that territory. It may be probable that exploiting antarcitca for ressources isn't allowed either as it's a neutral and demilitarized continent.
But who knows, when we sucked the northpole dry and still refuse to look for alternatives to oil, economic pressure could jeopardize that status.

[Flyboy]

Do you understand that the entire point of business is to make money? Or do you just not like capitalism? http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-911.gif
When it costs half of minimum wage salary just to get to work and back then yeah. You'll end up with a tremendously poor working population and even those who won't work. Without the workers what happens to the companies? They die. When they die the middle class is effected and so on so fourth down the chain. In the end we're all fucked.

[Gamerkd16]

So yeah, are you guys happy with price of gas? I cant stand it and theres no real easy sollution to it :(
Prices of gas are rising. It costs me $70 bucks to fill my tank a week. That in turn causes prices of everything else to go up. Businesses can't afford to pay their employees as much so they are barely hiring people for summer jobs. A real downside for me, because I need money. This recession the US is going into is ruining everything. So yeah, I hate the prices of gas.

We need one of those energy sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man%27s_armor#Arc_reactor) like from Iron Man. :D

[paladin]

Saudi Arabia is the biggest reason gas prices are so high. If they wanted to they could open the taps on their wells and drown every other country in the world in dirt cheap oil. They don't only because they know that they can keep prices insanely high because they can produce so much oil for so cheap that they can artificially limit supply and make oil really expensive to their gain. However, even the Saudis know that within the next 25 to 30 years the world will hit peak production and oil will become more and more expensive to collect, even in oil rich S.A.

However, saying Bush staged 9/11 to raise oil prices and somehow make a profit is completely silly. What the United States has wanted since the Oil Embargoes of the later 1970's has always been long term stability in the Middle East. The United States has been planning various invasions of Iraq since the 1970's because Saddam Hussein was always a nasty character who made the region unstable. While a horrific staged terrorist attack on the US certainly sounds like a good way to start a war with "Terrorism" (which is a cause of price fluctuation) it really isn't. All that that would do is cause prices to become volatile, something we do not want. Hell, I remember reading something about Dick Cheney saying that the only way to secure oil prices in the Middle East was to invade Iraq and depose Saddam at some point in the near future. This was the exact same reason that we had the Gulf War in the 1990's - Saddam invaded Kuwait and this caused prices to become volatile. The Bush administration's foreign policy in the Middle East revolves around keeping the region stable through heavy handed Imperialism, which ends up pissing off angry, unemployed Muslim teenagers. This causes more volatility and repeats the cycle. Things will keep on getting worse and worse until this clueless bastard in office realizes that besides making America look like a bunch of bossy assholes, it just makes things worse. Oh wait, too late, he's about to be kicked out thank god :D.Things probably won't change much though no matter who enters office.

This is why I say get rid of oil as a major fuel source entirely, and soon. At the moment, even if we completely stop our carbon emissions we will still see massive climate change - its already far too late to stop this. However, I don't want to be around on the day that oil is too expensive to buy, the petrostates have either collapsed or are busy destroying each other, America is devastated by terrorists because of our heavy handed foreign policy and our way of life is destroyed.

You SIR, deserve a cookie.

[Mr Buckshot]

Back in America, I had a Honda Odyssey minivan with a huge tank and it cost only $30 tops to fill up the whole thing. Now, my dad spends over $90 for a full tank in Canada, and he drives a sedan with a smaller tank than the minivan. I'm kinda glad we don't own that van any more, otherwise petrol prices will become a nightmare.

It's best to stop using oil altogether. I know that the military uses a number of non-oil-based vehicles, especially on the sea.

[Gamerkd16]

I know that the military uses a number of non-oil-based vehicles, especially on the sea.
What kinds of energy sources do they use?

[Flyboy]

However, saying Bush staged 9/11 to raise oil prices and somehow make a profit is completely silly. What the United States has wanted since the Oil Embargoes of the later 1970's has always been long term stability in the Middle East. The United States has been planning various invasions of Iraq since the 1970's because Saddam Hussein was always a nasty character who made the region unstable. While a horrific staged terrorist attack on the US certainly sounds like a good way to start a war with "Terrorism" (which is a cause of price fluctuation) it really isn't. All that that would do is cause prices to become volatile, something we do not want. Hell, I remember reading something about Dick Cheney saying that the only way to secure oil prices in the Middle East was to invade Iraq and depose Saddam at some point in the near future. This was the exact same reason that we had the Gulf War in the 1990's - Saddam invaded Kuwait and this caused prices to become volatile. The Bush administration's foreign policy in the Middle East revolves around keeping the region stable through heavy handed Imperialism, which ends up pissing off angry, unemployed Muslim teenagers. This causes more volatility and repeats the cycle. Things will keep on getting worse and worse until this clueless bastard in office realizes that besides making America look like a bunch of bossy assholes, it just makes things worse. Oh wait, too late, he's about to be kicked out thank god :D.Things probably won't change much though no matter who enters office.

It's a little thicker than that. And the main flaw with your post is both believing what the media has told you and assuming that the government wants our economy to be at a high. The evidence supporting the 9-11 conspiracy is substantial and as a result I simply can't believe that this was the cause of some terror organization. And when you can't believe that you need to force yourself to ignore a good portion of the mainstream media, not only that but draw the worst conclusions possible (by that I mean the most "depressing" in a sense). If these muther fuckers took out three buildings (building seven counts) Iraq just doesn't seam to add up for that. Sure they might of profited off it, but something deeper seams like it needs to fit. Complete economic and governmental world control seams like a pretty damn good motive eh? People see the idea as insane because the mainstream media, which sadly most of you rely on for your information, doesn't inform them of these ideas and rather refutes them, and when people come up against my position they instantly denounce it without observing my sources and information (take that oil thing, which I highly suggest you read legionaire, I doubt one person clicked it). In my mind if people are to truly refute some of this stuff they need to take a good hard look at some of the evidence behind it (Cn812301970572-39048 whatever the fuck your name is) before they refute it. I see your ideas every freggin night on CNN (that was until we got rid of cable), I suggest it's time people start looking at the other side.


What kinds of energy sources do they use?
Nuclear.

[Gamerkd16]

Nuclear.
I don't know...nuclear powered cars doesn't sound to safe. :p

[p0lar_bear]

I said enough with the conspiracy theories. This thread is about bitching about gas prices and thinking of a way to cut back on gasoline usage, not arguing over who did 9/11.

[Gamerkd16]

I said enough with the conspiracy theories. This thread is about bitching about gas prices and thinking of a way to cut back on gasoline usage, not arguing over who did 9/11.
Wasn't there a new energy source with salt water? How did that pan out?

[Bodzilla]

the 911 government conspiracy is, a government conspiracy.

[Flyboy]

I disagree, it won't last very long with bitching, arguing will both keep it going and keep the thread interesting. But the mod gets what the mod wants so oh well.

[p0lar_bear]

Wasn't there a new energy source with salt water? How did that pan out?
If you mean cars that run on water, it's a terribly inefficient method. Hydrogen is a great fuel, but it takes more energy to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen than combusting the hydrogen can yield.

Step one if you ask me is hybrids and motorscooters. Then we'll probably be seeing cheaper fully electric cars in the mainstream, unless some miracle of modern science just pops up out of nowhere.


arguing will both keep it going and keep the thread interesting

Arguing about stupid, barely-related conspiracy theories isn't the best way to keep a topic alive. It always leads to flamewars, which makes a huge mess.

[TeeKup]

I don't know. Something about a vehicle with speed capabilities of 100+ mph powered by a giant Lithium battery doesn't sit well with the part of my mind thats concerned with safety.

[p0lar_bear]

I don't know. Something about a vehicle with speed capabilities of 100+ mph powered by a giant Lithium battery doesn't sit well with the part of my mind thats concerned with safety.

Vehicles with speed capabilities of 100+mph powered by a giant internal combustion engine don't sit well in the part of my mind that's concerned with safety. :haw:

What could go wrong with electric cars that couldn't go wrong with an IC engine?

[TeeKup]

Vehicles with speed capabilities of 100+mph powered by a giant internal combustion engine don't sit well in the part of my mind that's concerned with safety. :haw:

What could go wrong with electric cars that couldn't go wrong with an IC engine?

Lithium Batteries are unstable. When two of these fuckers collide I don't want to be within a mile of them. :I

[Flyboy]

I
Arguing about stupid, barely-related conspiracy theories isn't the best way to keep a topic alive. It always leads to flamewars, which makes a huge mess.
It's entirely relevant.

And in terms of hydrogen there are these little attachable things that you hook up to your engine (forgot what they are called which is why my google searches came up with nothing but my father has talked about purchasing one) that produce a small quantity of hydrogen through electricity and a water supply. Apparently by adding this into the fuel you can increase the combustibility of the gasoline nearly twice as much. So if this be the case I don't think the key is to start making vehicles that run off hydrogen specifically but rather adding hydrogen into standard fuel to increase its performance (jacking up price but in tern sparing you the number of times you need to visit the pump) to a level that could prove beneficial.

[Bodzilla]

hydrolysis?
I'm pretty sure thats the reaction thats taking place.


also Lol Hybrid cars. we already have them mate.

[Patrickssj6]

It would be easier if the Americans just would change the mentality *DOT*

No more SUVs
No more cars over 100HP
No more concentrated fuel (Diesel or BioDiesel + Gasoline mixture)
No more AC machines
No more Trick || Treat lazy bitchez driving around the hood with a car

Come back to us other humans who care about nature if you can even be at the reach of that.

Also, Gas Prices rising? It's your fault if your Bushy walks into Mordor and demands more gas on the market from them. America has maltreated those countries for a long time, they are in no position to make any demands.

[rossmum]

No more AC machines
are you serious, do you want people to die in their hundreds on hot days or something

[Patrickssj6]

are you serious, do you want people to die in their hundreds on hot days or something
I severely hope for you that that was irony ;)

[rossmum]

Unless you meant something other than air conditioning, no, I'm dead serious. Not all of us can handle extreme heat, funnily enough.

[Patrickssj6]

So you think you have to turn on the AC if it's more than 20 degress outside?

Also, some people may be an exception...but since 5 billion people don't have any air conditioning and many people in America can easily adapt to heat...you can't die from heatstrokes under 40 degrees Celsius.

Also, we are not talking about LasVegas or other cities in the middle of the desert...I'm talking about NY for instance where the weather is basically the same as here in Germany where I live. No one here around needs or has any AC in their home at ALL. That's because we don't build shitty wooden houses that can't maintain the heat/cold equivalently.

We had power outages in NY in March just because too many people turned on their AC.

Of course this a another story for Australia...because there it gets really hot occasionally but not in the parts where the population concentrates in America.

[Flyboy]

So you think you have to turn on the AC if it's more than 20 degress outside?

Also, some people may be an exception...but since 5 billion people don't have any air conditioning and many people in America can easily adapt to heat...you can't die from heatstrokes under 40 degrees Celsius.

Also, we are not talking about LasVegas or other cities in the middle of the desert...I'm talking about NY for instance where the weather is basically the same as here in Germany where I live. No one here around needs or has any AC in their home at ALL. That's because we don't build shitty wooden houses that can't maintain the heat/cold equivalently.

We had power outages in NY in March just because too many people turned on their AC.

Of course this a another story for Australia...because there it gets really hot occasionally but not in the parts where the population concentrates in America.
Exactly, America makes up 6% of the world population and we use more than 25% of the oil. We've grown so accustom to our luxuries we have an inability to get rid of them for a greater long term problem. Ecenomically and naturally.

[rossmum]

Occasionally? Each summer has been as hot as if not hotter than the last for as long as I can remember, it hit 48 degrees the other year. And it's like that almost year-round, either that or freezing cold. Sure, America has a more temporate climate, but a hot day is a hot day and in any case America's use of energy absolutely pales in the face of what countries like China use.

[Patrickssj6]

China right now? No. In future? Maybe. What do you expect? That China will resign, make an environmental policy and share the oil with America because the past centuries it has been under a dictatorship and the people were suffering while the Americans on the other side of the world were pursuing the American Dream and now they see the a possibility because they know they will grow stronger than those Americans that never supported them?

Also, we are not talking about turning the AC on but actually misusing it. Don't be so stubborn, people get a cold in summer just because of the heat exchange when entering a store and you are still telling me we need ACs in that way?

[Flyboy]

It's not just home heating and oil use. America has a complete lack of public transportation because these car companies just love to sell more. If we would start using buses, trains, subways ect. the amount of oil we would use would drop by an immense margin. The problem is a culmination of issues and abuse of a recourse by the American public. Everything we do from leaving lights on to buying fucking hummers makes a difference. People, instead of waiting for a breakthrough in science for an alternative fuel source should do what they can now. Because there won't be one. And if we keep on this track there is no doubt that prices will both continue to sore but we'll have to deal with a little friend called global warming in a decade or two.

[rossmum]

China right now? No. In future? Maybe. What do you expect? That China will resign, make an environmental policy and share the oil with America because the past centuries it has been under a dictatorship and the people were suffering while the Americans on the other side of the world were pursuing the American Dream and now they see the a possibility because they know they will grow stronger than those Americans that never supported them?

Also, we are not talking about turning the AC on but actually misusing it. Don't be so stubborn, people get a cold in summer just because of the heat exchange when entering a store and you are still telling me we need ACs in that way?
You seem to be forgetting that stores generally contain perishable or heat-sensitive items. Yes, they generally do overdo things, but not having any AC on at all could be an issue just as easily.

The fact of the matter is that we're ALL to blame, not just the US, and even if the US DID turn Amish, it really wouldn't make much difference.

[p0lar_bear]

There's also the fact that a lot of the people using air conditioners are using them to get rid of the humidity while cooling the place down.

I live on a coastal town, take it from me; 75% of the summer days here are miserably muggy.

[Flyboy]

You seem to be forgetting that stores generally contain perishable or heat-sensitive items. Yes, they generally do overdo things, but not having any AC on at all could be an issue just as easily.

The fact of the matter is that we're ALL to blame, not just the US, and even if the US DID turn Amish, it really wouldn't make much difference.
Pfft, yeah it would. It wouldn't stop it but it would make a hell of a lot of a difference.

P.S. Stop being pointlessly stubborn about this AC thing, your making yourself look dumb. Nearly all the food in modern super markets is processed with preservatives so it can spare without the air conditioning. As for meats and what not, thats refrigeration, not AC. AC is an unnecessary luxury, refrigeration is necessary but because it is confined and uses a negative feedback system it uses up much less power.

[CN3089]

your making yourself look dumb.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-bravo.gif

[rossmum]

Pfft, yeah it would. It wouldn't stop it but it would make a hell of a lot of a difference.

P.S. Stop being pointlessly stubborn about this AC thing, your making yourself look dumb. Nearly all the food in modern super markets is processed with preservatives so it can spare without the air conditioning. As for meats and what not, thats refrigeration, not AC. AC is an unnecessary luxury, refrigeration is necessary but because it is confined and uses a negative feedback system it uses up much less power.
Come out here one summer and tell me that while you're lying in hospital with heatstroke. Stop posting, you're making yourself look dumb.

[CN3089]

Stop posing, you're making yourself look dumb.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/gf-cripes.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-hf.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-laugh.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-hf.gifhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-nazi.gif

[rossmum]

shut up shut up I didn't get enough sleep last night

That said he is posing in a way, as someone who knows something about the issue

e:


My bringing up 9-11 was entirly relievent in the discussion of oil prices douche. And if you think our weather without AC is bad move to india and check that shit out. Idiot.
uh no it wasn't because you just went on with that HURR BU$H DID 9/11 crap

Also, I live in Australia you dumb cunt. It hits 50 degrees celcius here in the summer, regularly. I think I'd know a lot more about hot weather than you would, twat.

Go back to laughing about buses loaded with toddlers going off bridges or something

[Patrickssj6]

If America would have turned Amish a 50 years ago it would have made such a big difference. Europe would have been then the country to look upon and they aren't the ones with the mentality of waisting every resource as much as possible.

What do you expect? If every American drives around with a 300HP SUV which is a piece of luxury you can't expect this to be reserved solely to Americans now that the Chinese see a possibility as well.

Americans have lived inside a candy store the past years, gazing outside through the windows to the people that aren't even allowed to touch that window. Now the door opened and the Americans have to leave; you expect them to stay outside and close that door and walk away?

If the Americans would have been Amish this candy store would have never existed...so much for your Amish theory.

[rossmum]

Dude, look around the world. Everyone uses fossil fuels, and lots of them. Yes, the US is one of the main offenders and rather wasteful, but look at their population. It's pretty fucking huge. The reason more people are turning to SUVs is because they either like to head out offroad or they have big families (though in the latter case I certainly agree a station wagon would be a better idea).

The problem is that the vast majority of people are always going to choose things that benefit them in the short term over things which benefit them in the long, Pat. It's how we are, it's how we've always been. The masses only realise how fucked they are at the last minute. Welcome to human nature.

[Patrickssj6]

Dude, look around the world. Everyone uses fossil fuels, and lots of them. Yes, the US is one of the main offenders and rather wasteful, but look at their population. It's pretty fucking huge.

I always consider the population. But even when considered, every average American person wastes about more than twice as much than an average European.


The reason more people are turning to SUVs is because they either like to head out offroad or they have big families (though in the latter case I certainly agree a station wagon would be a better idea).


NYC is not really off-road like. It's just pure showing off status and luxury. I know Mexicans where 3 people have to share one room, brush their teeth in the kitchen, but drive a black GMC just to show off themselves externally.

Like you said, station wagon would be a better idea. They also are really environment efficient.



The problem is that the vast majority of people are always going to choose things that benefit them in the short term over things which benefit them in the long, Pat. It's how we are, it's how we've always been. The masses only realize how fucked they are at the last minute. Welcome to human nature.


Yes, unfortunately that's true. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to fix that. Let me put it like this...the Greater Good against the American Dream. Here in Germany even though you might have the possibility to buy an expensive car, you won't. Why? Because compared to America it's too expensive.

Examples:
1. Gas Prices...because 2/3 of the Gas Prices are taxes here in Germany.

2. Insurance. You are forced to have an insurance. The more HP and another unit of measurement where you count the number of particles of CO2 per gramm you have...the more expensive you car gets and believe me....$400 per month for a 200HP engine doesn't sound too promising, does it?

3. If your car exhausts too much CO2 it's not allowed to enter big cities (or Mordor). I'm pretty sure that 90% of the American cars won't be allowed to enter big cities here in Germany...they are very strict with it. 140pCO2 / g is not much. My family car is also not allowed to enter big cities as well.
(VW Passat 150HP Diesel...)

4. Advertise with alternate energies. You only have to show Germans the benefits of something or where they can save money and they'll lick it off ...wherever. Just tell them BioDiesel and Alcohol is cheaper and stronger than regular fuel and voila...50% of the cars drive with Diesel / BioDiesel / Alcohol. Another 10% uses compressed natural gas you combine that with a regular engine to improve combustion.

I mean...I can give you a problem here in Germany that is rather similar. Smoking...the government wants to reduce the amount of Smokers since about every second person here in Germany smokes. Problem is...why would they want that? They make so much taxes out of it (280 Million Cigarettes per day...that's more than 6 times the amount of the German population). 30.000 people die each year here because they don't smoke but inhale it.
Problem for the non-smokers? They have to inhale it and pay higher insurance because off too many people having cancer. Solution by the government? Prohibit smoking in public places...did it work? No. Other solutions? Yes. In America this can't happen since the mentality of the people isn't one where they tend to like smoking this much.


You see..it's a matter of mentality. If the government would make everything more strict (in Europe it's not the countries governments but the European government that makes these rules) and the people would stop crying and would sacrifice their luxurious lives to a certain extend and would stop supporting conspiracy theories (yeah I just put this in because I hate them :p)...this would work.

[Kornman00]

Bush stealing middle east's oil isnt helping the situation....people are getting greedy, and the war is finally taking the financial toll on things.

Cost of the Iraqi war is over 1 trillion dollars, you dont just find 1 trillion laying on the ground.
1. The military still has to BYOG to war, we can't just take it from the locals (as must as we should since we just want to waste 4x the money used to destroy the shit we're rebuilding so we don't look so much like assholes)

2. Right, but you don't spend that $1trill+ all in one day either, so you just have to find $10mil laying on the ground everyday, which was easier back when Bush was pimping congress :haw:

also, the pound is a little more than twice the USD, so stop yer bitching >:|

[nooBBooze]

Examples:
1. Gas Prices...because 2/3 of the Gas Prices are taxes here in Germany.

2. Insurance. You are forced to have an insurance. The more HP and another unit of measurement where you count the number of particles of CO2 per gramm you have...the more expensive you car gets and believe me....$400 per month for a 200HP engine doesn't sound too promising, does it?

3. If your car exhausts too much CO2 it's not allowed to enter big cities (or Mordor). I'm pretty sure that 90% of the American cars won't be allowed to enter big cities here in Germany...they are very strict with it. 140pCO2 / g is not much. My family car is also not allowed to enter big cities as well.
(VW Passat 150HP Diesel...)

4. Advertise with alternate energies. You only have to show Germans the benefits of something or where they can save money and they'll lick it off ...wherever. Just tell them BioDiesel and Alcohol is cheaper and stronger than regular fuel and voila...50% of the cars drive with Diesel / BioDiesel / Alcohol. Another 10% uses compressed natural gas you combine that with a regular engine to improve combustion.

Oh and don't forget the TÜV :eng101:

[Patrickssj6]

I knew I forgot something xD

So yeah...TÜV...is an inspection you are forced to do each year, costs a lot of money and I swear, even if one single bolt is missing from the exhaust you won't be allowed to drive that car until fixed. Fixing of course is not included in the inspection price. :P

[rossmum]

Sounds a lot like the good ol' MOT in the UK. The inspections out here are pretty pricy too but they're nowhere as strict.

Does the US have an equivalent for that?

[Flyboy]

Not at all.

Which is why all your defense on the U.S. is complete and utter stubborn bullshit. The U.S. IS the problem, from fucking AC's which you won't even begin to use logic with to every other electric appliance. It's not helping either that our trade regulations with China don't require them to have any environmental plan if they intend to sell us things (not that they'd obey it but it would still give us some kind of moral plus). China's entire issue half revolves around us buying worthless plastic crap. If we stopped China's fossil fuel use would diminish considerably.

[Tweek]

i think we can all agree here, that the us just sucks ass :downs:

[nooBBooze]

Aggreed - with the addition that every other country in the world sucks monkey balls too, but probably on a smaller scale.
except for holland in some cases. theres nothing like smoking the good herb and getting 800€ if unemployed no questions asked; among other things of course D:
inb4 US bashing or EU/US penis comparison resp.

[Roostervier]

Not at all.

Which is why all your defense on the U.S. is complete and utter stubborn bullshit. The U.S. IS the problem, from fucking AC's which you won't even begin to use logic with to every other electric appliance. It's not helping either that our trade regulations with China don't require them to have any environmental plan if they intend to sell us things (not that they'd obey it but it would still give us some kind of moral plus). China's entire issue half revolves around us buying worthless plastic crap. If we stopped China's fossil fuel use would diminish considerably.
To be honest I think you're stupid to get this, but I believe Ross is not defending the US, but, rather, he's placing the blame on all humans. Which is understandable, because it's utterly im-fucking-possible that America is THE only problem. Also, if we are such a fucking thorn in the side of the world, what are you doing to change the carbon output? Have you stopped using cars, started to ride a bike, or stopped using your AC (assuming you actually have hot summers... IIRC you reside in California, right?), or stopped using your computer, or stopped watching T.V., or stopped leaving some of your lights on during the day? There is so much you could do, but I doubt you're doing more than two of the things I listed. Also, why do you continue to attack the US when you are a part of the problem? You are probably the biggest Nimrod to ever grace the forums with your existence. I like how you bring up figures and statistics such as us having 6% of the population yet using 25% of the energy, but leave out how a shit load of that percentage of energy consumption goes towards making things that we sell to the rest of the world. Wait, see what I did there? Sell to the rest of the world? Wait, the problem could extend all over the earth? HOLY SHIT. What a concept, right? As long as anyone keeps paying us for doing the wrong thing, we'll keep doing it. It's human nature. For anyone still paying us or accepting our help, you are at fault as well. Namely, the rest of the world.

And now to Pat. What are you so stuck up on NYC for? That's a poor way to represent the US, as most of the nation comes nothing close to being as luxurious as NYC. There are a few places that are like that, but most are like where I live. Also, NYC doesn't need AC... big deal. We do. You said heatstroke doesn't happen before 40 C? I live in Indiana, and it got up to 43 C last year. That may not be much heat compared to other parts of the world, but it's enough for heatstroke, and, according to your logic, AC. If Indiana gets hot enough for that, then I am sure a lot of the other states do. Around 28 or so, I'd imagine. And it only gets hotter going farther south, so you can only imagine. And then I honestly only see a few people driving around in those big ass SUVs. Most people I see in SUVs have smaller SUVs that are used sorta like pick up trucks, but with more space for people. That way you can carry stuff and still have more than 3 people per vehicle unit. Also, you honestly expect me to believe that the rest of the world doesn't drive cars, use AC, leave the lights on, drill for oil, watch T.V., use computers, and play video games? If you answered no to any of these questions, then obviously the whole world is the problem. How is that so hard to get? But I know why. It's easier to point the finger than accept responsibility. Everyone needs a scapegoat.

[Patrickssj6]

In Germany you get 1100€ if unemployed or if you are a student :P

So this is Holland versus Germany now...smoking herbs or life insurance..this is madness.

[rossmum]

Not at all.

Which is why all your defense on the U.S. is complete and utter stubborn bullshit. The U.S. IS the problem, from fucking AC's which you won't even begin to use logic with to every other electric appliance. It's not helping either that our trade regulations with China don't require them to have any environmental plan if they intend to sell us things (not that they'd obey it but it would still give us some kind of moral plus). China's entire issue half revolves around us buying worthless plastic crap. If we stopped China's fossil fuel use would diminish considerably.
China will just sell shit to someone else then, or use it themselves.

Also, I fail to see how I'm not using any logic on the matter of air conditioners when for some people, it's a straight choice between heatstroke or burning more power up. Sure they don't need to be on all the time, and some people do leave them on constantly; however, acting as if they're purely a luxury is stupid. Obviously you made the idiotic assumption that only Americans reside on this forum, hence assuming that I wouldn't know what heat is; I'd like to see you come down here one summer and tell me that when it's peaking at 48 degrees celcius in the shade. Don't fucking criticise me when you came in here spouting conspiracy bullshit like any of us care, then you go on to retaliate like a fucking child when you got what was coming for it.

Also, Tweek, cut the America-bashing, it gets old really fast - and that's coming from someone who usually does it himself. Really, it's like you're just waiting for the slightest chance to, and all it does is start more fucking pathetic drama.

e:

I can fucking guarantee that none of you acting like it matters worth shit to you are actually going out of your way to do anything about it.

[nooBBooze]

In Germany you get 1100€ if unemployed or if you are a student :P

Damn that actually sounds nice. I must have been dumbstruck by all that whiny shit that makes your folks' news cause this really surprises me.

[Patrickssj6]

You said heatstroke doesn't happen before 40 C? I live in Indiana, and it got up to 43 C last year. That may not be much heat compared to other parts of the world, but it's enough for heatstroke, and, according to your logic, AC. If Indiana gets hot enough for that, then I am sure a lot of the other states do. Around 28 or so, I'd imagine. And it only gets hotter going farther south, so you can only imagine.
I've been around the whole US. The fact that NYC doesn't even need ACs and they use it IS the whole point.

43C? In your home? Call me and I'll build you a real house. I forgot that all Mexicans further South all die yearly because of heatstrokes. Not to mention the other 5 billion of people in the world without an AC.

I don't do anything for the environment? My father (and my friends fathers') turn off the heating element in winter to save energy and I have to freeze. You would laugh since this is so unimaginable for you.

You can't debate this any further. These are facts and you can't just accept them. We are not searching for a scapegoat we have found it.

Rank http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions#) Country http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions#) Annual CO2 emissions http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions#) Percentage of total emissions[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions#cite _note-6)
http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions#) - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Newworldmap.svg/22px-Newworldmap.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Newworldmap.svg) World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World) 27,245,758 100.0 %
1 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg) United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) [8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions#cite _note-7) 6,049,435 20.2 %
2 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg ) China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China) and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg) Taiwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China) 5,010,170 18.4 %
- http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Flag_of_Europe.svg/22px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Europe.svg) European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) 3,115,125 11.4 %

China + Taiwan have 3-4 times the population of the United States and they still waste more? Event he European Union has more residents and it wastes only half as much.

I don't pull those numbers out of my European scapegoat searching arse.


If you answered no to any of these questions, then obviously the whole world is the problem. How is that so hard to get? But I know why. It's easier to point the finger than accept responsibility. Everyone needs a scapegoat.

The European Union already have a concept and are heavily forced to reduce CO2 by 2020...already each year we have to sacrifice a lot. Yes, the "whole world" except the US...they won't do anything. They don't even have a steady government by now and are debating whether it's better to vote for the Republicans again because no one would want a black president.

So while the "whole world" changes you people will remain the same because by now you people have done nothing for the climate change except rising the gas prices even further and create conspiracy theories how God would never want Global Warming to happen to earth.

[Roostervier]

43C? In your home? Call me and I'll build you a real house. I forgot that all Mexicans further South all die yearly because of heatstrokes. Not to mention the other 5 billion of people in the world without an AC.

I don't do anything for the environment? My father (and my friends fathers') turn off the heating element in winter to save energy and I have to freeze. You would laugh since this is so unimaginable for you.

Nope, it isn't 43C in my home, because I use the AC when the heat becomes intolerable.

Also, how would you know I can't imagine freezing like that? We almost never use the heat. The only time the heat is ever on in our house is from 6:00 pm until 9:00 pm because my mom can't stand being that cold (in the winter that is). As for my dad and I, it gets around 10 C when we are in the house, sometimes colder. And trust me, I've been in cold weather before. When I used to live upstate it got down to -31 C before outside.

[Patrickssj6]

It will never get 43C in your house if it's isolated correctly. I'm directly under the roof right now and the shine suns directly into my room and onto our black roof and it's an acceptable 25C even with my CRT and my computer.

[Roostervier]

I thought you said Germany is as cold as New York? <_<

Plus, our house is old and has old insulation.

[Tweek]

Nope, it isn't 43C in my home, because I use the AC when the heat becomes intolerable.

Also, how would you know I can't imagine freezing like that? We almost never use the heat. The only time the heat is ever on in our house is from 6:00 pm until 9:00 pm because my mom can't stand being that cold (in the winter that is). As for my dad and I, it gets around 10 C when we are in the house, sometimes colder. And trust me, I've been in cold weather before. When I used to live upstate it got down to -31 C before outside.


all im reading is waah waah, i get cold sometimes, and i get hot sometimes.

[Roostervier]

I was really responding to Pat saying I'd never be hot enough to use the AC and I'd never knew how could he felt. <_<

[rossmum]

This thread is turning into a suckfest, count me out.

Feel free to continue ragging on each other over insulation though

[Patrickssj6]

Who cares. I want to be en caved in this....
http://www.dfanning.com/adventures/arctic/arctic_pics/ice.jpg

and then melt again in a few billion years and find Eve to start humanity all over again. :hump:

[Flyboy]

And then find that the sun will have tripled in size by then and you'll melt out only to be incinerated.

And pats little statistic kinda shows how America really is a good portion, if not nearly all of the problem. All of Europe doesn't even use half of what we use, and china and Taiwan have nearly 30% of the world population and they wouldn't be producing all of that were it not for all the exported goods that WE buy. And rooster, at least I'm one of the few people aware of the issue, then again it doesn't mean I'm a fucking tree hugger. However we have a 35mpg car, we turn most of the lights of, I turn my computer off when I'm not using it, I don't even have cable so using my TV is kinda out of the question. But I am part of the problem, everyone is including you so don't be a fucking hypocrite accusing me of such things when you and the majority of folk do them as well. And ross, air conditioning is a luxury, people have been around for what, forty thousand years, hell people in Africa still live in the fucking desert with nothing but a house of sticks and they get by. I personally don't think AC is the problem, just you stubbornly defending an idiotic side is just aggravating. And retaliate like a child, please. Retaliating stubbornly and against you maybe but that doesn't make me a child.

[Mr Buckshot]

In Canada, people are fanatics about preserving the environment. If you want green, come here. If you want a climate where it's usually unnecessary to use the AC (just open the window if you feel hot), come here. Notably, Greenpeace originated in Vancouver, although it's now based in Europe.

Plus in every province, the government offers tax refunds and rebates on hybrid vehicles to give people incentive to buy hybrids. Over half the taxis in my city are Toyota Priuses or Camry Hybrids. About 30% of the teachers in my school drive the Toyota Prius. These vehicles emit very, very little stuff every day, because Vancouver's lack of highways means that hybrid vehicles will be moving slowly enough to run on electric power alone, independently of the gas engine. My physics teacher remarks that every day, he never has to use the gas engine on his Prius except to recharge the battery. And there are the speeding laws. Heck, even if there were no speed limits, it would be impossible to exceed 50 km/h in most of Vancouver's streets.

What we need are totally-electric vehicles. If any of you have seen the movie Gattaca, the vehicles that the characters drive look more or less the same as today's vehicles, but they're 100% electric - to recharge batteries, every parking lot in every location comes standard with a plug-in station, so it's impossible to run out of power. If the system in Gattaca existed today, it would be so awesome.

[kenney001]

screw hybrids and their tiny pathetic engines...

Gimme this:
http://www.car-wallpaper.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/muscle-car-desktop-wallpapers-1024x768-9.jpg

[rossmum]

Well, the thread seems not to have exploded into the drama I thought it might, so I'm back. Flyboy, you might see air con as a luxury, but as someone who passes out in high temperatures and has done so numerous times before, I don't. And we're all just as hypocritical no matter what. No matter how we live our lives, it will affect the Earth negatively in some way. Why? Too many of us. We have no real natural predators, we multiply like rabbits, and we have comparatively long lifespans. There are just too many people for the planet to sustain, even if we did go back to our old ways of living in caves and so on. I turn the lights out when I'm not using them, I walk or use public transport rather than drive, and I usually shut my PC off when I'm not using it. I don't buy anything unless I have a dire need for it (in terms of food/clothing, etc.; I'm too poor to afford anything for my PC anyway, so I rarely buy anything for it either). I watch two hours of TV a week, at most. Yet I still use up a lot of power. We all do. It can't be avoided. While people cutting down on SUV purchases and quitting buying a new [insert object here] because the old one's gone out of fashion would no doubt help, it still doesn't solve the problem and nothing will. The best we can do now is slow it.

As for the above, that car is probably no more damaging to the environment than a supposedly green hybrid. Some of you guys seem to forget these technologies have to be developed before they're implemented.

[Patrickssj6]

One question...have you ever been to America for more than 1 or 2 weeks?

[rossmum]

Not since I was a kid, but I do have a pretty good indication as I have been back since for a few days at a time.

Regardless, as I said: we are the problem, not just America. They're just doing a better job at being the problem for now than the rest of us. Even if America went back to the stone age, someone would rise to take their place.

[Patrickssj6]

The real problem is that everyone around them is changing but they still continue and deny everything like nothing is happening.

Americans always had the potential to change as you can see throughout history but now they got lazy needless to say and will only change if the iceberg is right in front of their doorsteps. The government is doing absolutely nothing. Elections are no excuse. The candidates first priority for argumentation is still Iraq like there are no other problems in the world right now.

[Roostervier]

I actually think Pat is right about us not doing anything. The government is investing in finding new ways to produce some kind of fuel, but so far our efforts are futile. And I see all this stuff on the TV all the time about doing stuff to help the environment, but I can't say I know more than a few people that actually do anything.

On the other hand, I also agree with Ross. Still, everyone is to blame. Right now it's just easier to blame America because we are the worst at the moment.

[rossmum]

The biggest problem with phasing out fossil fuels is that none of the alternatives are the magical miracle saviours the media always tout them to be, like ethanol, for instance. In theory, it's clean. In practice... blergh. You need to put in a shitload of energy to do anything useful with it, and then you're left with a crapload of completely useless waste. So to be honest, the appearance of 'not doing anything' (in that field, mind you) isn't just out of laziness, it's because there are problems which need to be addressed.

[Patrickssj6]

I think you are confusing something. Ethanol is really easy to get...in Brazil the farmers were subsidized to plant sugar canes or corn. The result...90% of the farmers used the harvest for ethanol production and there was famine suddenly.

But still, producing ethanol is not that energy intense. What you probably mean is hydrogen since you need a lot of energy for hydrolysis which you get from power plants that create...energy with CO2...which is the cycle of death.

Also, there are so many simples things you can do. All of my houses in America I have lived in had those 120 Watt light bulbs...120 Watt!! That's how much power a guy at the tour de France uses when riding the bike up a mountain at 30mp/h and you have like what...15 of them in total in your home so that's 1800Watts just for light? Common...there are cheaper longer lasting working alternatives that run with 8Watt and are brighter!

[Roostervier]

We have all fluorescent lights at our house. :\

[SnaFuBAR]

And pats little statistic kinda shows how America really is a good portion, if not nearly all of the problem.
Fuzzy math, gj. Part=! whole. The whole world's dependence on fossil fuels is the problem, not any one nation. Please take your baseless accusations elsewhere.

Ignoramus.

[Flyboy]

To snaff, do you really take me to not think all the people in the world are a problem? However if you simply punch in the numbers it's pretty fucking strait forward America uses up way more than is necessary of it, it doesn't try to stop china from doing this stuff and much less itself. Neither of us have ANY policies regarding how to burn this stuff. Europe has tons of regulations on how it uses its energy and fossil fuels which is why it has a much smaller output. If both the U.S. and china cut down their fuel usage in half (which is very possible if the governments got some damn regulations going) which would cut down the world c02 emissions by nearly 20%.

20% of 8 billions tons of co2 is over 1.5 billion tons. If you think thats a small number then I'm not the one who's ignorant.

And as for what rossmum and pat are saying, I absolutely agree. Nuclear and hydrogen are the only effective alternatives to fossil fuels (each pose their own problem at current time however). Ethanol is not clean burning, nor are any biofuels. However, as the plants grow they take out Co2 in the air causing a small net decrease which is helpful in the long term but in short term the net decrease (your practically taking the same amount out as your putting it back in so it can barley be called that) is simply overridden by fossil fuels making it pretty useless at the moment.

[p0lar_bear]

Nuclear-powered cars... heh.

If the prospect of crashing one of those things leading to leveling a city block or two wouldn't encourage people to drive safer, then I don't know what would. :v:

[Varmint260]

Ahhh, I suspect nuclear-powered cars could be quite safe, except that as a mechanic, I can tell you right now I'm not going to work on one.

I figure, sooner or later, when other means of power die out, electricity is going to have to come out on top. All we need are clean ways to produce it and we're set.

In the meantime, I'm going to have to live with high gas prices while I drive my box to and from college each day. I'm not really that mad at the gas prices. Sooner or later, a big change is going to occur and I'll have to go with it.

For example, the manufacturers of diesel engines in highway tractors (Cummins, Cat, International, Mack, Volvo) are going to start building production models of fuel cell engines for trucks starting in 2010. I'm very interested to know how these will turn out.

[rossmum]

I think you are confusing something. Ethanol is really easy to get...in Brazil the farmers were subsidized to plant sugar canes or corn. The result...90% of the farmers used the harvest for ethanol production and there was famine suddenly.

But still, producing ethanol is not that energy intense. What you probably mean is hydrogen since you need a lot of energy for hydrolysis which you get from power plants that create...energy with CO2...which is the cycle of death.

Also, there are so many simples things you can do. All of my houses in America I have lived in had those 120 Watt light bulbs...120 Watt!! That's how much power a guy at the tour de France uses when riding the bike up a mountain at 30mp/h and you have like what...15 of them in total in your home so that's 1800Watts just for light? Common...there are cheaper longer lasting working alternatives that run with 8Watt and are brighter!
Trust me, we were forced to study this topic in minute detail in year 12 chemistry. Yes, ethanol is clean and cheap in theory, but not in practice. First of all there are serious issues involved with the mass growing and cultivation of a single group of crops, and that's without considering the amount of land that would need to be cleared. Second of all, ethanol is not as efficient in terms of energy as octane. You'd need something like 125-150% as much ethanol to deliver the same amount of power (been a while so not sure on the exact figures), and ethanol cannot be used in any more than a 10% amount as a fuel (so 1L ethanol to every 10L octane) in a conventional engine, meaning said engines must be modified, redesigned, or replaced to work using ethanol as a fuel. Bam, there goes a shitload more fossil fuel in the development process. Then, assuming that works, you've got to actually extract the glucose from the crops and let it ferment to create ethanol. But guess what? Plant matter contains CELLULOSE in much greater proportions, and right now, we cannot do a single damn thing with cellulose fibre. It's a logistical - and environmental - nightmare, not to mention that the process of separating the two takes time and energy as well.

When you actually look at the bigger picture, it's not a very clean fuel at all, and nor is it economically viable.

[Patrickssj6]

a conventional engine, meaning said engines must be modified, redesigned, or replaced to work using ethanol as a fuel.

70% of the cars in Brazil drive with ethanol. This technology already exists and is widely spread. It's not anything special just the Americans get get along with the rest of the world. Europe...50% Diesel/BioDiesel....South America 70% Ethanol...America?

You don't even have to mix gasoline and ethanol. They can easily go 90mph 140km/h and when my family drove that car we drove 400km with a 50 liter tank. That's perfectly normal I don't know where you got your information from. It's a lie that ethanol is that much stronger. The combustion is the key. Also, we don't need that much power in the first place. 90HP is more than enough...in America you can't drive faster than 75MPH anyway...so why bother getting more power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicle

[rossmum]

Sigh.

Read my post again, carefully. Trust me, we did this shit nonstop for weeks in chemistry, in minute detail. The reasons we don't use ethanol instead of petrol are that it's not as clean as it's made out to be, it's not economically viable, and at the moment it's not exactly practical either. If you want to get from point A to B, no matter what kind of vehicle you're driving, you'll need more ethanol than you would octane to get there. If you want to use ethanol as a fuel in its own right, you need to modify or replace your engine. If you want to produce ethanol in any significant amount, it will require a long bloody time to do so. Think about it for a moment, there are a lot more cars in the US and probably even out here than there are in Brazil. Nearly every combustion engine in a western nation runs off of octane, diesel (which can be phased out much easier with biodiesel, though even it has a few flaws), or kero or some other oil derivative. If you honestly believe it's possible to replace and refit BILLIONS of engines - most of which are on private vehicles - and then overhaul service stations, supply lines, carrying capacity of each vehicle, etc. in any less than a number of decades, you're delusional.

[Kornman00]

This thread really lacks well thought out, logical, cited, unbiased arguments. Go figure, its Modacity.

In other news (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24938572/).

[Flyboy]

Sigh.

Read my post again, carefully. Trust me, we did this shit nonstop for weeks in chemistry, in minute detail. The reasons we don't use ethanol instead of petrol are that it's not as clean as it's made out to be, it's not economically viable, and at the moment it's not exactly practical either. If you want to get from point A to B, no matter what kind of vehicle you're driving, you'll need more ethanol than you would octane to get there. If you want to use ethanol as a fuel in its own right, you need to modify or replace your engine. If you want to produce ethanol in any significant amount, it will require a long bloody time to do so. Think about it for a moment, there are a lot more cars in the US and probably even out here than there are in Brazil. Nearly every combustion engine in a western nation runs off of octane, diesel (which can be phased out much easier with biodiesel, though even it has a few flaws), or kero or some other oil derivative. If you honestly believe it's possible to replace and refit BILLIONS of engines - most of which are on private vehicles - and then overhaul service stations, supply lines, carrying capacity of each vehicle, etc. in any less than a number of decades, you're delusional.
For once I agree with him <_<

[Patrickssj6]

You DONT need to replace your engine. Our car is a Diesel and it can run with BioDiesel (which is 25% ethanol) Sunflower Oil and by merely changing the injection caps, natural gas.

First step for America, switch from gasoline to Diesel. Have they done that in the past twenty years? No. You DONT switch BILLIONS of engines in a matter of 1 year. You have to be smart and look to the future. How come 50% of the cars in Europe are Diesel? Also, Diesel is stronger than gasoline by the way.

[paladin]

But biodiesel raises the price on corn and other farmed goods used in making biodeisel.

[rossmum]

You DONT need to replace your engine. Our car is a Diesel and it can run with BioDiesel (which is 25% ethanol) Sunflower Oil and by merely changing the injection caps, natural gas.

First step for America, switch from gasoline to Diesel. Have they done that in the past twenty years? No. You DONT switch BILLIONS of engines in a matter of 1 year. You have to be smart and look to the future. How come 50% of the cars in Europe are Diesel? Also, Diesel is stronger than gasoline by the way.
Using more than 10% ethanol in a conventional PETROL engine will cause damage to it, FACT. Why the hell else would people be concerned over smaller petrol station chains adding it into their petrol so they can buy it cheaper and sell it off for the same price?

[Patrickssj6]

Ross, here in Germany 10% BioDiesel is automatically added to every gasoline. They want to raise it to 15% now.

[rossmum]

Well over here there was a MASSIVE inquest into petrol additives. You just cannot add more than 10, maybe 15% ethanol to a stock petrol engine and run it off that without causing longterm damage.

In any case, it's still not economically viable and still not clean, so the chances of ethanol phasing out octane anytime soon are relatively slim unless we hurry up and find out how to break down cellulose into something we can actually use.

[TeeKup]

I still have my hopes on Hydrogen. The only problem facing that is a more viable catalyst for the fuel cell.

[paladin]

Hydrogen Fuel Cell is where its at.

If you want to add 10+ mpg to your car put 1 cup of sugar for every gallon when you fill up.

[Flyboy]

Biofuels are not the answer and not because of cost, I'm speaking in terms of the environment. Further more we're gonna need corn here in the U.S. for a more important thing than fuel in a few year, cheap fucking food. Our economy is completely dead, everything is hidden behind bad debt and it's only a matter of time before we collapse. And from what I've driven by in Arkansas, corn can be a damn cheap food.