A small rant on forum etiquette.

[Ifafudafi]

(I posted this as a usernote a while ago just to get it out, but I felt that it could still be a good insight in topic form.)


You know what really pisses me off?

Assholes.

People who think they're superior to everyone else simply because they're more experienced or have had more success in something(s) than others. This applies to several people I've met over the years, but I'm also alluding to a few select individuals at H2V Modacity. I won't name names.

Let me tell you a little story. Once upon a time, I was a member of a forum similar to this, but it was Metroid-centered. I signed up and stayed because the populous seemed more intelligent, sensible, and generally well-mannered than most of the internet, and after a few months I was proven right.
Unfortunately, there was this guy. For his sake, I'll call him Phil. He was a damn fine programmer, and after some major assistance in forum performance, security, and appearance, he was promoted to administrator status in order to better work with the site. The downside was that he was a COMPLETE FUCKING ASSHOLE. Phil would constantly go on rants whenever someone made a little footnote that he didn't completely agree with, and anytime someone mentioned anything, and I mean anything to do with programming, he would start bitching and yelling at how they were wrong and stupid. None of his posts directed at other members were ever complimentary, and always included "moron," "idiot," "faggot," "imbecile," "douchebag," or something to that effect.
If he was anybody else, this would get Phil banned within half a heartbeat. Unfortunately, he was both an administrator and an indispensible member to the forum's well-being, so everybody was forced to endure his faggotry.
Then, when he was on vacation for two days, we started a mass revolt on his forum behavior and made a case that any of us would have been permabanned for this kind of assholery, there are other programmers, we want to be able to make a post without him yelling at us, etc. Most of the forum's more veteran and well-respected members, including myself, participated in trying to dethrone Phil.
When he came back, he banned every single fucking person that posted in that topic.
The head administrator lifted the bans when he learned of this, but most of us (once again, including myself) were too pissed off to come back, and nearly everyone who made that forum what it was, even those who had been there since the beginning, just left it to its fate.
That fate turned out to be the closing of the site a month later.

I doubt anything that drastic will happen here (and all the admins here are fuckawesome <3) but the lesson remains: nobody likes an asshole, no matter how good you are at something. I came up with five simple guidelines which could provide a positive attitude, particularly when criticizing somebody else's material.

1. Give compliments. Find something, anything, that's done right and point it the fuck out. People are much more likely to try and fix something if they know they did something right.

2. Avoid derogatory language. Calling someone an idiot or calling their entire model/skin/mod/penis horrible is not criticism. It's just insulting for no real purpose.

3. Watch your wording. Let's say someone is making a skin for a weapon. I really don't like the way they textured the grip. Here's three ways I can say this:

-The grip sucks asstesticles. I can't believe you put something that shitty on this forum.
-The grip's alright, but could be a little better. A little work and it'll look perfect.
-The grip could use a good bit of work. Try applying <x> filter in Photoshop, use <y> for a reference, and maybe look at <(.)(.)> tutorial.

Sentence 1 is wrong. It's discouraging, insulting, and doesn't serve any major purpose other than to yell at the author.
Sentence 2 is wrong. It doesn't get the point across that the grip really needs a good overhaul and also doesn't provide any advice on how to remedy the issue.
Sentence 3 is right. It alerts the author of a mistake without overdoing it, and also provides some suggestions on how to improve.

4. Don't act superior to others. Nobody cares if you can blow everyone else's custom effects out of the water. Being more skilled/talented/successful in an area than most other people does not qualify you to prance around saying that you're worth more than they are. People are people, no matter what they're good at; just because someone makes a grenade explosion that doesn't quite stand up to yours doesn't mean they're inferior. Just because you have a girlfriend and they don't doesn't mean they're inferior. And just because you have more rep bars than somebody else sure as hell doesn't mean they're inferior.

5. Listen to your criticism. This is more the inverse of the above. If someone, especially multiple someones, takes issue with part of your material or post, then take what they're saying to heart, even if it's buried under a mountain of insulting blather. Nobody got better by doing the same thing over and over. This applies not only to newbies, but to everybody; if you're a master skinner who just posted a WIP but a bunch of guys, albeit with less experience, find a certain part ugly or incongruous, take it not as ramblings of the ignorant but rather as an insight from the forum's primary demographic.

I'd also like to point out that most people's rationale for insulting behavior is something along the lines of "this is internet, grow up," "stop being a pussy," etc. This is no excuse; idiocy is idiocy and assholery is assholery, no matter where or how you do it.


Most of this is just common sense and good manners, and this post probably doesn't even apply to anyone who actually took the time to read it. For those who did, thanks for bearing with me.


Apologies for the blog-esque rant. I'm currently bracing for the -rep bomb/lock.

[Heathen]

This is a very constructive and well thought out post, you well dressed and goodlooking peer of equal stature to me :D

Also...
model/skin/mod/penis
?

[rossmum]

graet thred

has my aprovel

[adumass]

I agree with what your saying but, this is the internet where people can be assholes anonymously.

[Ifafudafi]

... A sticky?

<3

Hot damn. I didn't expect that.

I knew the admins were fuckawesome.

And yeah, I know that expecting everybody to play nicely on the internet is like expecting a guy to grow up without fondling his wang, but I can still rant about it.

[Heathen]

A forum is a place where people can trade judgement on works and share thoughts...not some playground with no rules where everyone is magically homosexual to everyone elses whim. I think forums are barred off places in the internet where dickery shouldn't fare.

[Reaper Man]

Awesome thread. I completely agree.

[Mass]

I agree. Here's the problem with etiquette: Unfortunately, in a lot of ways, it is optional. If someone cooks you a great dinner but then eats this dinner sloppily with their fingers you're going to be inclined to ignore their manners. Proper manners or simple respect are not always viewed as a necessity. (it's a rule here though) That's the principle problem with the current engagement level of internet communications networks, forums or otherwise. There's not nearly as much pressure to act well-mannered in a space where rules are largely unenforced.

But those conventions exist for a reason. Sometimes they're restricting and backwards. maybe edging on perverse, sure. In my own family we have a story of a fiance of my great-great aunt cutting fish with a fork and not being allowed to marry her based purely on superfluous etiquette.

Habits and attitudes are enhanced or quarantined in an effort which is, by-and-large, logical. There's a reason people are expected not to be assholes--human culture found ill-intentions and sinister actions to be faults from the beginning.

In defense of the harsh: Clarity is and will remain every bit as much a problem with forums as poor manners. The occasional scathingly blunt criticism is not to be witch-hunted by those with the good of a community ranked chief goal.

E: Almost forgot. Great post.

[rossmum]

And yeah, I know that expecting everybody to play nicely on the internet is like expecting a guy to grow up without fondling his wang, but I can still rant about it.
Holy shit, I love you.

Also, remember kiddies! You don't have to be one of us oldfags with more green bars of rep than appendages to be an asshat.

[blind]

How dare you talk to Phil like that.
He can't help that hes from BC.
good post tho, (Y)

[Masterz1337]

I nominate this for sticky.

[Roostervier]

It's already stickied. <_<

Also, nice post, duly repped.

[Boba]

I do not agree with this post. I have every right to be an asshole just as much as anyone has the right to vote republican.

[Hotrod]

I agree with this post, always having that little bit of politeness adds a lot to what people think about you, in a good way of course. I'm glad that this thread has been stickied, and I hope that it makes a positive difference in out community.

[Pooky]

Phil is my favourite friend :(

[t3h m00kz]

I agree with what your saying but, this is the internet where people can be assholes anonymously.

True, but that's less true in a forum with upstanding members. If it's 4chan that's one thing, but here's something different. If you're going to want to get anywhere on a forum you're going to HAVE to be an upstanding member.

ALSO, I ALWAYS KNEW PHIL WAS AN ASSHOLE

Damn it Phil,
I WAS THERE AND I SAW WHAT YOU DID
I SAW IT WITH MY OWN TWO EYES

[SnaFuBAR]

I can only half agree with this post. Of course only responding to a post with profanity is just ridiculous, saying someone's work is terrible/poor/bad is not a lack of etiquette. Giving such judgment without inferences to why it is or how to rectify poor work may not be insightful, but it surely isn't poor etiquette.

I consider poor etiquette to be giving someone critique that isn't truthful. Actually, I would consider it unjust. If someone's work is extremely poor and you say "hey dude it's an ok model, you just need to fix up _____" in an effort to play nicey-nice is BULLSHIT. You're leading a person on to think he's at a level of mediocrity he's nowhere even close to. That is unfair to the artist.

Now I agree saying, "FUCK YOU THAT SUCKS ASS" is terrible, and an absolute lack of etiquette (it's just grieving the person), but saying the only correct crit is to be as cherry-picking sweet and nice as possible is just completely utopian and unrealistic, and your ideas are faulty. You are wrong.

A lot of what you're ranting about has to do with this little thing called "perception". When a more talented/experienced artist critiques his peers, some can be under the impression that that person is trying to act superior. Fact of the matter, the majority of us DON'T intend on slathering all of that in your faces every day (well maybe just a day or two when we're on our Pissed Man Syndrome), and a good majority of us think of ourselves still as students constantly trying to learn things we haven't already.

Remember that some of us artist that have been called the "leet" were given that label by everyone else, we never came and said, "HEY WE'RE LEET, GOT IT?" Sure, we may have come in and excelled above other people, the very people who titled us "leet" and the very same people who now label us "elitist pricks". Don't like our status? Well, then do better!

Give compliments? What if there's nothing to compliment because the concept, execution and presentation are terrible? I'm not going to bullshit someone. If you want a pat on the back and no adverse reaction to your work, go show your mom. I'm not here to be nice. I'm here to be completely dead honest and help people improve as artists.

[t3h m00kz]

It's good not to bullshit someone and not even pay attention to any flaws in their work, I completely agree that people should be aware of their flaws, and you shouldn't sugar coat things so much that they start to get big-headed, but there is a fine line between honest criticism, and being so focused on the bad shit about their work that someone looses faith in themselves and their potential and winds up giving up.

The thing is, let's say someone put hours and hours of work into something, just to put it on a site and have everyone focused on what's fucked up about it, what's so wrong about it, and what needs to be fixed, not at all acknowledging the potential of the piece, or what the artist did right with it. That'd be enough to make anyone want to give up.

"So and so looks good but so and so needs fixing"

Acknowledging the good, the bad, and the potential for a piece of work is the best way to go imho

[SnaFuBAR]

Sometimes there is no good to acknowledge, sometimes there's too much bad, and sometimes there is no potential for a certain piece of work, and it truly has to be redone. This often arises. Not everyone can do the work and I won't pretend that everyone has potential.

[n00b1n8R]

You don't have to compliment, but just saying "it sucks" is bad etiquette.

Saying "it sucks and here's why and here's how you can fix it" is fine (great) though.

[p0lar_bear]

This is something that I find incredibly hard to balance, and I've had like hour-long discussions with Snaf on this same topic. %-)

As an administrator of a community site, there are two things I strive for: a userbase, and quality control.

Trying to build a community of hobbyists is good in the sense that people have fun doing what they do. However, you lose quality in a shitstorm of half-baked attempts at things being made, usually things that are horrible "odes" to jewels in the rough. Building quality is good because you can always find something worth your while, but then you end up turning people away because they're not having fun with critics breathing down their necks.

Where the hell is the center of that? I agree strongly with both sides of this argument, that we should be nice, but at the same time we shouldn't bullshit people.

What I really think is that there should be some sort of identification as to what someone's goals are. While brutally honest critique is good for someone who is striving to be an artist, it shouldn't be given to someone who is here for fun.

[Bodzilla]

supa-sxc-awesome rep powas go0000e!

brb reading insanely long walls of text :/

E: dam that was long.

But look there isn't really a middle ground on this issue, there is no area where people are happy and content, because this area is all based on opinion and not fact.
To put it metaphorically it's like a game of pin the tail on the donkey.
None of us know the exact area which is a perfect balance between the two opposing opinions. We just think we know where it should be, so we raise our flag, charge in, and proclaim that our point of view is right only to find out that the point we've chosen isn't the same point as everybody else.

What your looking for just doesn't exist because it's all relative to the person who posted the comment and not the author of the work.
Based on this it's nearly impossible to determine if something that was posted has merit or a lack there of.

[Limited]

I feel, if your going to pick apart someone work, you at least need to use some brain and come up with an original, decent reply.

[Patrickssj6]

Sucky Halomods mods suck.

But this only on the sideline of this thread....

[Tweek]

is this entire thing pointed at my by any chance? :awesome:

[PenGuin1362]

You make a point but a lot of what your saying kind of goes back to criticism. And a lot of the time there are most of us who act superior to others in the field we're critiquing. And this reminds me of an old thread I made a while back about criticism that seems to have been forgotten, http://modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5543&highlight=criticism As for the general asshatery, I haven't noticed it much on here as of late but to be honest it isn't that bad on our forum as it is others. But also if you're going to be an ignorant moron, then arguments are going to occur and no one is going to get along. And people do tend to be ignorant on here.


is this entire thing pointed at my by any chance? :awesome:

don't try and take all the credit mister <:mad:>

[Tweek]

whenever i act like i'm uperior, i am superior to the person im expressing my superiority to.
:awesome:

[Ifafudafi]

Damn, a lot more varied and (mostly) intelligent responses here than I thought.

You have to understand that the 5 things I outlined aren't hard instructions, but guidelines. You don't have to follow them exactly, so long as you keep in the spirit.
I'm also not trying to delude myself that keeping asshatery away from criticism is easy; it sure as hell isn't. Part of it is, taking from what Snaf said earlier, perception. People who generally put out higher quality work are going to look down upon those who don't, and call it out; whereas those who don't have any experience will take the model at face value for what it is, and judge it accordingly. As p0lar said, whether the author is looking for that overly blunt criticism from the gods above, or just a general opinion from the main userbase, influences greatly on his response and the level of control needed by critics.

tl;dr: If the author's not looking to be a modeling god, don't give him an entire critstorm. If he is, fire away (but still refrain from being an asshat.)

As stated previously, I'm not pretending that what I'm asking is going to happen, but that's the purpose of a rant: yell at what you don't like and say how it could be fixed in a perfect world.


EDIT: http://www.modacity.net/forums/customprofilepics/profilepic174_1.gif

[NullZero]

Very good post +1 rep

[Apoc4lypse]

Sometimes there is no good to acknowledge, sometimes there's too much bad, and sometimes there is no potential for a certain piece of work, and it truly has to be redone. This often arises. Not everyone can do the work and I won't pretend that everyone has potential.

This was the most cynical post I think I've ever heard from you snaf...

I disagree, theres hope for everything, anything can be fixed and improved upon, especially if its broken.


E:
is this entire thing pointed at my by any chance? :awesome:
Yes the big walls of text and 3 page long thread was made just for you tweeky /sarcasm

Don't flatter yourself too much there buddy ; P
Although I will admit to having a strong feeling that you and phil would be great friends :D

E2:
whereas those who don't have any experience will take the model at face value for what it is, and judge it accordingly.

Speak for your self thar mister, some of us are actually capable of empathy believe it or not. Everything isn't written in stone, were people not characters in a video game with linear thought processes (if that makes sense)

[Ifafudafi]

Speak for your self thar mister, some of us are actually capable of empathy believe it or not. Everything isn't written in stone, were people not characters in a video game with linear thought processes (if that makes sense)

Let me also stress that I'm heavily generalizing here, as there are undoubtedly exceptions (and probably several direct contradictions) to what I'm saying. The point I was trying to make is that if there's an incredibly minor technical mistake, it will (usually/probably) show as big red warning lights to those who have more experience, whereas those who aren't quite as fluent in a subject will (usually/probably) not notice or care about said mistake.

[Apoc4lypse]

Yeah I understand that, what I was saying is that everyone isn't mindless and can usually understand people who are learning because they've been there before, the majority choose not to though, or maybe they feel like they had a tough time learning so they don't feel like giving anyone a break as payback for what they had to go through or what ever, or maybe they feel like in the end it will make them better...

Theres many different perspectives you can throw on this subject, and I'm not saying that this is the reason for anyone being hard on the people who are learning. There are many different ways of teaching, some people believe in the strict hard ass method, and they feel if the person gives up then they shouldn't be doing this anyway. Then there are people who believe that encouragement is the best method of teaching (which is what I believe in usually).

It all comes down to opinion... then again there comes a time when you might be crossing the line and over stepping the rules of the forum. After all this isn't your classroom or my classroom for you to teach how ever you choose, its a publicly visited forum with rules and restrictions that need to be followed.


EDIT: What I can't stand seeing is when everyone piggy backs on the person who's using the "hardass method of teaching" this usually doesn't end well for anyone, mostly because these people usually have no idea what there talking about and just want to feel smart, there just blowing smoke. Just because someone said something doesn't mean you need to endorse it right away, its not gonna help your situation, I'm sorry but your not gonna get a blowjob or any rep out of it either.

[Bad Waffle]

Hey ifafudadi, great public service--but its a bit pretentious as you're just frustrated with the way some useless teenagers without jobs or education (yet) are acting on the internets. It's just a sad fact of life you have to deal with faggots and stuff, no matter where you are. You know what? MOST PEOPLE have posted a topic like this exact one at least once in their posting career, whether at a different board or here. It's because most people aren't used to it.

Sorry buddy, i'm just gonna have to say, deal with it or run for the hills and start your own thing. You've left the shelter, welcome to the bombsite of society ruled by the rich assholes and the smart douchebags.

[Ifafudafi]

I've dealt with worse faggots then anybody on here; I do the occasional substitute teaching for middle school kids. Those little bastards are worse than anything I've seen on the internet.

But once again, it's a rant and an "if it were a perfect world" situation. I'm a part-time /b/tard, so I'm used to this kind of stuff anyway. Doesn't mean I have to like it, though. :3

[rossmum]

Oh God, you're a sub?

I pity you. I'd probably be killing the little shits with sharpened rulers before the end of the day.

[Heathen]

This is no longer a small rant :/

[Con]

Oh God, you're a sub?

I pity you
.