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View Full Version : Concerning Halo CE and the Open Sourceness of the BLAM Engine...



t3h m00kz
August 28th, 2008, 10:11 AM
Okay guys. I, as a person who's bit of a theorist and questioner, have been doing some thinking about something that's kind of important to this community, the modability of the Blam engine.

Keep in mind, this is mostly all just theory mixed with some of my own personal opinion.

To sum it up in a nutshell, I think Halo may have originally been planned to be as Open Source as any other engine like Source, or even Unreal. I don't think Halo's engine would have been so closed and limited if it weren't for the fact that Microsoft bought the franchise.

Let's look at the facts.

Bungie:
Rockstar of gaming companies
"Let's look at what the fans want and do it!"

Microsoft:
Evil Nazi money mongerers
"Let's make everything in Vista NEW! BUT INCOMPATIBLE! AND WE HATE XBOX MODS, TOO!"

What's Bungie done before Microsoft, back when it was just Bungie? Well, personally the only other game by them I've played is Marathon. And from what I understand, the game was heavily modable. There are TCs (Marathon RED, Rubicon, Marathon Evil, Tempus Irae, Morgana's Revenge, Eternal), and they even released a Windows-compatible "port" of the engine, AlephOne, for people to do whatever they want with.

Then Halo came around. It was going to be a Mac-only game. Microsoft, a bunch of "FUCK THE MODDING COMMUNITY" Nazis, bought them out.

Let's look at how much Microsoft hates mods.

1. The XBox was the first major Gaming console (to my knowledge) that didn't include a Gameshark/Game Genie style hacking device.

2. Hackers of any sort get banned from XBox Live.

3. Games released for the XBox 360 that are heavily modable on the PC, such as Unreal Tournament 3, UE3 being a HUGE modable engine, and COD4, also very modable, are left with nothing but the pure game with no support for mods. Epic Games fought and fought for mods on the XBox, but lost, apparently.

On the other hand, we've got Bungie, this company that fully supports their previous game, Marathon, being Open Source material, working with a complete Close Sourced one.

Halo PC came out. From what I understand, Microsoft had less involvement than in the XBox version. Rather, it was more of a collaboration between Bungie and Gearbox. It was nothing more than a port of an XBox game, so naturally it wasn't very hackable in it's release. However, programs came out, Halo Hacker Tools, and Bungie and Gearbox picked up on it. They released Halo: Custom Edition, which came with a brand new Editing kit that allowed for custom models, sounds, weapons, levels, the whole nine yards. And, through third-party hacking and backwards engineering of the engine and editor, we've come up with things like Kornman's editor, Yelo battery, third person/FOV and camera hacks. Basically the community tearing apart the Engine and editor to make new, interesting content.

Halo 2 was released. As with every other XBox game, hackers who connected to the service were banned from XBox Live. The only way you could play with your hacks was offline over LAN, or over XBox Connect.

Halo 2 Vista was released. And, while I may not be 100% sure of the facts preceding this statement, I do know for a fact, based on a highly reliable source (I can't say much more, someone's job may be at risk) that Bungie had no hand in the porting of Halo 2 to Windows Vista. It was an internal Microsoft project.

What are we left with? A bad port of a game that requires players to pay for any good Online features, and a stock editing kit that you can't do SHIT with. The only way the game would become modable is if the community completely hacked the shit out of everything to unlock the closed features, as well as publishing programs capable of injecting and extracting data such as models and textures.

Halo 3 came out. The game ships with unbelievably versatile custom games options, as well as Theater mode, screenshots, and most of all, Forge. Forge, if anybody recalls, was the old editor for the Marathon series. To me, it seems like Bungie is paying homage to their old Open Source engine.

So, why hasn't Bungie gotten pissed at people like ZTeam ripping their models and animations? Honestly, if ZTeam does it, it's just as bad as anybody else, they don't work for Bungie and they don't have the rights, same with anybody else on these forums or anybody else who plays the game. Still, Bungie hasn't stepped in and said "Hey, stop this, this is bullshit and you're shitting on our hard work." I doubt they would if anybody else came out with an animation extractor as well and started modding the shit out of Halo 2 Vista.

Bungie has such respect for what their community wants it's unbelievable, yet the Halo franchise was kept under the keen, Nazi eye of Microsoft. Halo is now OWNED by Microsoft, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the series started going downhill from here. Not saying it's going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Again, these are my own personal interpretations on the situation. Hopefully people will look at this and think about things in a different light, but I don't expect that.

Also I don't have time to proof read because I'm heading to my new job.

And now that I've had my say, any thoughts on the subject?

Pkmnrulz240
August 28th, 2008, 10:23 AM
Let's look at how much Microsoft hates mods.

1. The XBox was the first major Gaming console (to my knowledge) that didn't include a Gameshark/Game Genie style hacking device.

Are we talking the original Xbox or the Xbox 360 here? The original Xbox had Action Replay, which was an important component in getting Linux on the original Xbox.

The 360, however, hasn't had any cheating devices... at least, as far as I know, anyway.



2. Hackers of any sort get banned from XBox Live.
Yeah, in a perfect world.

DEElekgolo
August 28th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Zteam credits the original makers of the models they rip. As long as they don't use it in a product and make money out of it then they are fine.

FRain
August 28th, 2008, 12:46 PM
Zteam credits the original makers of the models they rip. As long as they don't use it in a product and make money out of it then they are fine.


This.

I love how people (unless stated in the copyright agreement) already call downloading movies pirating, or downloading music pirating, but as long as you don't use it without permission in something that makes money, it's fine.

Zeph
August 28th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Well, the reason you dont see cheating devices supported on the xbox consoles is because they were the first consoles really designed for multiplayer functionality. MS knew they'd be bringing out the Live service and if they opened the platform for cheating, that service would be compromised. Unlike PC gaming, XBL cant rely on admins to police the games to keep cheaters in or out. They've got to have a zero tolerance policy or the environment would become undesirable.

Those games that are released for the 360 that are heavily modable on PC are also from third parties to MS. That's where they're allowed their freedom to put a modding kit out there.


Halo 2 Vista was released. And, while I may not be 100% sure of the facts preceding this statement, I do know for a fact, based on a highly reliable source (I can't say much more, someone's job may be at risk) that Bungie had no hand in the porting of Halo 2 to Windows Vista. It was an internal Microsoft project.
Bungie acted as advisers and steered the MGS team in the direction they wanted.


What are we left with? A bad port of a game that requires players to pay for any good Online features, and a stock editing kit that you can't do SHIT with. The only way the game would become modable is if the community completely hacked the shit out of everything to unlock the closed features, as well as publishing programs capable of injecting and extracting data such as models and textures.
You dont have to pay for the online features anymore. The editing kit is there and can easily be unlocked. The problem is getting a compiler.


Halo 3 came out. The game ships with unbelievably versatile custom games options, as well as Theater mode, screenshots, and most of all, Forge. Forge, if anybody recalls, was the old editor for the Marathon series. To me, it seems like Bungie is paying homage to their old Open Source engine.
Not really. Bungie is just pushing the interaction aspect of their game in a multiplayer environment and following current trends.


So, why hasn't Bungie gotten pissed at people like ZTeam ripping their models and animations? Honestly, if ZTeam does it, it's just as bad as anybody else, they don't work for Bungie and they don't have the rights, same with anybody else on these forums or anybody else who plays the game. Still, Bungie hasn't stepped in and said "Hey, stop this, this is bullshit and you're shitting on our hard work." I doubt they would if anybody else came out with an animation extractor as well and started modding the shit out of Halo 2 Vista.
Actually, they have stepped out and said what people can and can not do with the Halo IP. As for the enforcement, it's not their jobs. MS pays lawyers to do it.


Bungie has such respect for what their community wants it's unbelievable, yet the Halo franchise was kept under the keen, Nazi eye of Microsoft. Halo is now OWNED by Microsoft, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the series started going downhill from here. Not saying it's going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Not as much as you think. Bungie's just willing to occasionaly cater to the vocal minority.


Bungie:
Rockstar of gaming companies
"Let's look at what the fans want and do it!"

Microsoft:
Evil Nazi money mongerers
"Let's make everything in Vista NEW! BUT INCOMPATIBLE! AND WE HATE XBOX MODS, TOO!"

Bungie:
A once little, now big, studio looking to find its way.
"God, these kids wont shut up. I say do what they want so I can get a full night's sleep."

Microsoft:
Cost/reward investment money makers.
"I say, is there profit in this? If not, can it make us look better?"

ftfy

DEElekgolo
August 28th, 2008, 01:48 PM
Bungie is a pretty cool guy.

Ki11a_FTW
August 28th, 2008, 02:15 PM
So, why hasn't Bungie gotten pissed at people like ZTeam ripping their models and animations? Honestly, if ZTeam does it, it's just as bad as anybody else, they don't work for Bungie and they don't have the rights, same with anybody else on these forums or anybody else who plays the game. Still, Bungie hasn't stepped in and said "Hey, stop this, this is bullshit and you're shitting on our hard work."

yeah bungie stated that they dont mind people ripping there content, and putting it into another game that bungie made.

jngrow
August 28th, 2008, 03:03 PM
There is profit in more moddable games- more content that costs the studio no money to make, more people might want to buy the game. It's just Microsoft is SO afraid of IP infringement (which is weird since any mod of notable size that was based off something seems to get shut down anyways, with no trouble to the original platform) and getting sued that they have completely pussed out. I understand the need to prevent cheating for Xbox/Xbox360 though, but, UT3 was a game that REALLY wanted/needed mods, and Epic probably would have happily tried to find ways to deal with cheaters if it ment mods were allowed.

Party_Grunt
August 28th, 2008, 05:09 PM
First of all, calling MS a bunch of Nazis doesn't show much intelligence. If anyone remembers economics from high school or college, they are in the business to make money. We could argue about ridiculous copyright laws but that's not what this about.
Second, I think it would be good to see the engine open sourced, from the prospective of a player of the game, but not when looking at it from a business standpoint.

As the game engine is owned by Microsoft, they have the ability to license the engine to other companies or studios who like how the game works. The licensing can be into the millions of dollars. Also, iirc, halo 2 is based off a modified version of the original engine, which is probably why they don't want to release it. I cant give a reason for everything they do, but until Halo as a whole isn't profitable, don't expect the game to be open sourced.

SnaFuBAR
August 28th, 2008, 06:37 PM
To sum it up in a nutshell, I think Halo may have originally been planned to be as Open Source as any other engine like Source, or even Unreal. I don't think Halo's engine would have been so closed and limited if it weren't for the fact that Microsoft bought the franchise.

Let's look at the facts.

Bungie:
Rockstar of gaming companies
"Let's look at what the fans want and do it!"

Microsoft:
Evil Nazi money mongerers
"Let's make everything in Vista NEW! BUT INCOMPATIBLE! AND WE HATE XBOX MODS, TOO!"

I didn't see ANY facts that would suggest that Bungie EVER INTENDED Halo to be completely open source. IMHO, this is another rant thread about open source, except this time the antagonist isn't some mod team in the community, it's the great empire "M$".

ShadowSpartan
August 28th, 2008, 09:35 PM
yeah bungie stated that they dont mind people ripping there content, and putting it into another game that bungie made.
When and where did they state that?

legionaire45
August 28th, 2008, 10:24 PM
The only time that Halo had anything to do with the open source movement was back when it was being developed on the Mac and ran on OpenGL. From the beginning there was going to be an editor but the game has never had anything to do with open source.

Map Editor != Open Source Game Engine.

t3h m00kz
August 28th, 2008, 11:06 PM
In response to this:


Bungie acted as advisers and steered the MGS team in the direction they wanted.


I say again,


I do know for a fact, based on a highly reliable source (I can't say much more, someone's job may be at risk) that Bungie had no hand in the porting of Halo 2 to Windows Vista. It was an internal Microsoft project.

I did forget to mention however, that Bungie did indeed approve of the project, but they had no hand of the actual process of porting the game to the PC. They just nodded their head and said "Sure go ahead." So yes, I guess in a sense Bungie had a hand in the port existing today, but all of the actual porting was a Microsoft Game Studios internal project.

Don't think it's impossible for me to know this or not, I literally live a little over half a mile from a Microsoft test building. Again, I can't give any more information, because somebody's job may be at risk.

The other information in my post may be faulty. But the information concerning the port, I know for absolute sure.

Also: 800 posts god damn

Cortexian
August 29th, 2008, 05:41 AM
2. Hackers of any sort get banned from XBox Live.
Back when I activated my free month of XBL from Halo 2 I was using an aimbot type thing the entire time. The ridicule would turn red if there was an enemy in my view, all I had to do was shoot and it would headshot.

Never got caught. I just did it to see if I WOULD get caught, since I'll never PAY to play something that I can play for free on PC.

Kornman00
August 29th, 2008, 05:50 AM
but they had no hand of the actual process of porting the game to the PC. They just nodded their head and said "Sure go ahead."
You need to get a better "source", the sole reason H2V turned out the flop that it is today is because of a key few people in Bungie having a hand in the process of porting the game. Bungie didn't just say "sure go ahead" and trollied away. Hell the development of it started inside Bungie's current studios.

t3h m00kz
August 30th, 2008, 07:27 PM
You need to get a better "source", the sole reason H2V turned out the flop that it is today is because of a key few people in Bungie having a hand in the process of porting the game. Bungie didn't just say "sure go ahead" and trollied away. Hell the development of it started inside Bungie's current studios.

Okay. Guess I'm wrong.

But, just to be fair, what are your sources on this information?

StankBacon
August 30th, 2008, 08:41 PM
bungie.


lol

adumass
August 30th, 2008, 09:05 PM
You need to get a better "source", the sole reason H2V turned out the flop that it is today is because of a key few people in Bungie having a hand in the process of porting the game. Bungie didn't just say "sure go ahead" and trollied away. Hell the development of it started inside Bungie's current studios.

So this is the way those few people in bungie, or all of bungie wanted the port done?..