WTF CONGRESS!?

[TeeKup]

What in gods name were they thinking!?
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Dispatch/market-dispatches-092908.aspx


Stocks suffered an historic and massive sell-off today after the House of Representatives narrowly failed to approve a $700-billion rescue plan for the U.S. financial system.

The Dow Jones industrials fell 778 points, or 7%, to 10,365. It was the biggest point loss ever for the blue-chip index and the biggest percentage loss since Sept. 17, 2001, the first day of trading after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

The Standard & Poor's 500 Index suffered its biggest one-day point loss and its biggest percentage loss since the October 1987 market crash.

The Dow and S&P 500 closes were their worst since June 2005.

The Nasdaq Composite Index slumped 200 points, or 9.1%, to 1,984, its first close under 2,000 since September 2004.

Traders booed on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange as the closing bell rang. For good reason: The slump wiped out The selling wiped out some $1.2 trillion in market capitalization from the U.S. stock market.

Stocks around the world are likely to be volatile again on Tuesday. Japan's Nikkei 225 Index was down 4% to 11,275 in early trading. Indexes in New Zealand, Australia and Korea were also down more than 4%.

[Bad Waffle]

wow, world econ is about to get ganked

[jcap]

Good.

We still need a solution. Bailing out those responsible for the problems is not it.


Also, it's kind of a...


Dear Congress,

We told you so, so go fuck yourselves you assholes.

Love,
Republicans...after all of this could have been completely averted had the democrats actually not said NO to Bush's proposal of an oversight committee for the subprime mortgages.

[Kalub]

Shit, we could put a shovel in office and fix the economy. Too bad the American people are shallow, and the average Joe's voice is never heard unless it gets out of hand.

[jcap]

Too bad it's not the president's fault. Too bad he's powerless to do shit about it. Too bad the people under him fucked it up and left the blame on him. Too bad the average Joe doesn't understand shit about what's actually happening or why it's happening.

[Kalub]

Touche. Is it safe to say it's everyone's fault?

[jcap]

Well, it depends who "everyone" is.

It's the fault of the brokers who were working on commission to see who can close the most mortgages.

It's the fault of the CEOs who leech off of the banks and investment houses with their multi-million dollar bonuses, despite their companies struggling.

It's the people who had a mortgage on a house who put nothing down and foreclosed on their house because it looked like their little investment wasn't panning out how they had dreamed.

It's the banks and investment houses for not requiring any papers or any money down on a mortgage, and then bribing people and convincing them that even though they'll owe $200,000 MORE in the end, their investment in the house will more than cover it.

It's the assholes in DC who turned a cold shoulder to this problem for the past 10 years. Had the democrats not been so adamant about poor people being able to live in a nice house too (that they can't afford), then we wouldn't have this problem. Had the republicans not deregulated the banks so far, this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

If stockholders weren't panicking with the stock market and selling everything with every little tiny event, there wouldn't be as much trouble on Wall Street.

I don't feel sorry for anyone who has lost their house due to a subprime mortgage. It wasn't even theirs to begin with. Unless they put something down that they had invested in it THEMSELVES, then all they are doing is RENTING it from the bank. It's also the banks' fault for not actually holding people more responsible. And it's their fault for not thinking wise enough to rewrite the mortgages to a time period of 50 years so people can continue to "rent" the house from the bank and wait out the duration of the mortgage until the economy is better.

[Zeph]

Thank God. Maybe now they'll get the root of the problem fixed instead of patching it up for a while before it happens again. The banks brought this upon themselves because of their shitty practices. The Americans who are suffering financially because of their debt right now are doing so because they couldn't afford to repay the debt. The system will repair itself over time. If Congress just dumped money onto the problem, the financial practices would not have changed.

[Zeph]

If stockholders weren't panicking with the stock market and selling everything with every little tiny event, there wouldn't be as much trouble on Wall Street.
Not really. The stock market has turned from a long term investment system into a daily one. People only care that they're going to get profit tomorrow and not ten years from now. It's another one of those things that needs to be self healed through this upcomming depression.

[Hazard1337]

We are so screwed. Depression is inevitable. Now if you don't mind, i'll continue on with saving all my monies.

[Zeph]

We are so screwed. Depression is inevitable. Now if you don't mind, i'll continue on with saving all my monies.

lol, that only makes the problem worse.

[Kalub]

Shit, I need to go get my monies out of the bank and hide it under my mattress.


That'll fix it :downs:

Did you not pay attention in history?

[Tweek]

all the people who cant afford their mortgages and are "suffering" over it, need to shut their whining traps, and see that it's their own stupid ass fuckup, for taking a morgage they cant affort in the first place, i mean how fucking stupid do you have to be do do that anyway? american-stupid apparently.

take a loan you couldnt POSSIBLY affort, and then bitch and moan when it turns out that TADAAA, you CANT AFFORD IT!

as for a response to the actual non-passing of the bill, gz gz america, you're proper-fucked now.

[jcap]

Remember, though, it's the brokers who essentially forced them into taking out that mortgage. While they didn't threaten them, they used bait and switch tactics, doubt, and optimism to get out as many mortgages as possible. I know the people who took out the mortgages are at fault, but I think it's more of the fault on the banks because they got themselves into that trouble. Had they actually done the mortgage right or denied people, they wouldn't have ended up in the mess they are in now.

[SnaFuBAR]

Definitely tax evading for the rest of my life. This dipshit country doesn't deserve the money I earn, and I most certainly never see the benefit of my taxes.

E: You want 30%+ of my income? Maybe MORE to fix YOUR FUCK UP?? Show me you deserve it.

[Pooky]

Definitely tax evading for the rest of my life. This dipshit country doesn't deserve the money I earn, and I most certainly never see the benefit of my taxes.

Let's pool our funds and flee to Australia :haw:

[Rob Oplawar]

^ I was telling dane that google has an office down there... I could get hired and then move. Let's do it, guys!

@Zeph: for once I agree with you. Hurting these financial institutions is hurting the economy, but they shouldn't be in the position to hurt the economy in the first place, at least, not to this extent. Hopefully once the economy comes out of the dumps the institutions that survive won't be in a position to trash our economy and we'll be stronger for it.

For those of you who haven't read or done the math: this bailout would have meant that every taxpaying US citizen (on average) would be responsible for about $3500 for this bailout alone. (granted that's not precisely how it works, but still, 3.5k per taxpayer being thrown at these fuckups is just insane)

[Zeph]

^ I was telling dane that google has an office down there... I could get hired and then move. Let's do it, guys!

@Zeph: for once I agree with you. Hurting these financial institutions is hurting the economy, but they shouldn't be in the position to hurt the economy in the first place, at least, not to this extent. Hopefully once the economy comes out of the dumps the institutions that survive won't be in a position to trash our economy and we'll be stronger for it.

For those of you who haven't read or done the math: this bailout would have meant that every taxpaying US citizen (on average) would be responsible for about $3500 for this bailout alone. (granted that's not precisely how it works, but still, 3.5k per taxpayer being thrown at these fuckups is just insane)

You've agreed with me before. You just threw a fit shortly afterwards and cut off all communication.
It's actually more per taxpaying citizen. The census data only shows the number of people in the country, not the number of tax payers. The worse part is that this proposed bailout would not be giving money back to the tax payers. The result would have been people who are financially sound forcibly helping out those who are not. I estimate the amount per taxpayer at closer to 5k USD and anywhere upwards of 8k. Assuming idiot Americans wouldn't go to the bank asking for a loan to get more money on top of it, imagine what 5-8 thousand dollars would do as a tax refund instead of a bailout. The last one was soo small people pretty much just banked it as a mattress against the hard times ahead.

[ICEE]

Shit, we could put a shovel in office and fix the economy. Too bad the American people are shallow, and the average Joe's voice is never heard unless it gets out of hand.

Why does everyone jump straight to "BURN THE PRESIDENT" everytime there is a financial issue? Besides, in the long run congress made the right choice. If they had approved the bill it would have been a bandaid fix that essentially moves our country away from capitalism and towards socialism.


We are so screwed. Depression is inevitable. Now if you don't mind, i'll continue on with saving all my monies.

The only way to fix the economy is to spend money. Hoarding money from the economy is like hoarding oxygen from a person.

[Heathen]

I agree with jcaps VERY first post. I didnt read the rest of them.

[Rob Oplawar]

words
*throws a fit*

My guess of $3500 comes from estimating the number of taxpayers being about 2/3 the total population, which is nothing more than a guess. it might be better to just say it would cost "on the order of thousands of dollars" per taxpayer. But this sort of debt would be unloaded on generations to come.

I should start viewing in threaded mode so I can directly reply instead of having to quote what I'm replying to...

[Zeph]

Why does everyone jump straight to "BURN THE PRESIDENT" everytime there is a financial issue? Besides, in the long run congress made the right choice. If they had approved the bill it would have been a bandaid fix that essentially moves our country away from capitalism and towards socialism.

He's the one that OKs everything that goes on in the government. Socialism has some good principles behind it. It would have been a step towards socialism, but not a complete move. Then again, it's not the American way, which McCain and the republicans are trying to preserve.

[Dwood]

He's the one that OKs everything that goes on in the government. Socialism has some good principles behind it. It would have been a step towards socialism, but not a complete move. Then again, it's not the American way, which McCain and the republicans are trying to preserve.


I'm fine with it like that. I say don't do anything at all and let it crash and burn.

This country needs another depression, no lie. Let the ones who played the system have their reward.

[SnaFuBAR]

yeah because a depression only will have a negative effect on them huh?

[klange]

Average $2400/person, weight by income, as a one-time "save the economy, and by extension, the world" tax. (Nay-sayers to the world part: Look at what happened the last time our economy bombed)

Should work fine.

[jngrow]

Definitely tax evading for the rest of my life. This dipshit country doesn't deserve the money I earn, and I most certainly never see the benefit of my taxes.

E: You want 30%+ of my income? Maybe MORE to fix YOUR FUCK UP?? Show me you deserve it.
QFFT

Did anyone have a fucking history class in their life? I mean seriously America, fucking fail. What pisses me off so much is not that a second depression is possible, but that we half-way came about it ALMOST THE SAME WAY AS LAST TIME. Buying shit you can't afford. Except this time I think it's worse, since in the fucking twenties people didn't have a depression to learn from their mistakes.

[Rob Oplawar]

It's a little more complicated than that.

[ICEE]

Socialism has some good principles behind it. It would have been a step towards socialism, but not a complete move. Then again, it's not the American way, which McCain and the republicans are trying to preserve.
I agree. Socialism isn't entirely bad, but it is a slippery slope from there to communism.

[Mass]

I think I might be the only one in this thread whose actually read a sub-prime loan contract, and they're ridiculous. Many of them suppose the homeowner to be making more money yearly than they've seen in their life and they involve seven-letter acronyms in fine print the companies literally made up. Yes, I know legal documents are like that by and large, the difference here is that these companies tricked people into lying about their assets and ability to pay back the loan. Essentially, The problem wasn't what was within regulation, it was the proximity to the illegal behaviors that predatory institutions wanted to participate in.

The idea of Wall Street demanding a bailout is beyond offensive. "You told us we could do this and then acted like we were capable of doing it properly! Send money, quick!"

A bailout might be useful, but the current incarnation of this bill is not. The Republicans have really worked their asses off to make sure the government somehow gets screwed despite the efforts of the center-left. No body on the far left or right supports this, (or indeed the populace--calls in to congressmen have been 99:1 against it.) If this loophole-ridden piece of shit got through congress it would have been a massive failure for democracy.

[jngrow]

It's a little more complicated than that.

half-way came about it ALMOST

[Random]

Shit we can't have a depression right now, that would ruin the long standing tradition of the economy fucking up on odd years. Way to go congress now the crash is even more likely to happen in 2008 and not 2009. And you know what they say about depressions that start in even years, gtfo now.

[Apoc4lypse]

lol...

theres 2 options...

Either they actually pass this crazy bailout thing, we get hit with Taxes, then just pray everythings gonna be fine...

Don't bailout, watch the market and pray...


Either way we end up praying that the market doesnt get fucked up...

I vote for the one without moar taxes towards a problem we shouldn't have to pay for.

My house has been paid for...

[Zeph]

ugh, they're going to rework it and vote on it again. it better not pass. It probably will though, because they're going to strike bailout from the name and try to pass it off as something different.

[klange]

@Random: Odd years? Bah. The tradition is to fuck up in October - perfect timing!

[Zeph]

WTF Congress???
How the hell did the bill get passed today with soo few changes?

[TeeKup]

Wait what!?

[SnaFuBAR]

WHAT!?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5243/failwutse2.png

[Warsaw]

Welcome to the United States of America, brought to you by morons, for morons.

[n00b1n8R]

There is an alternative guys:
http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/b/b9/Flag_of_Australia.svg/800px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png

[Mass]

You'll spot us 700 Billion...USD?

I forgot to mention, turns out they pulled that number out of thin air.

[n00b1n8R]

No, move to Australia you silly. :eng101:

[Rob Oplawar]

Fuck this shit.

You know what, let's make like the Crimson Permanent Assurance, and sail the world looting all those fucking financial corporations for all they're worth. It's time for some forceful redistribution of wealth.

e:
roboplawar (10:14:48 PM): fuck canada
roboplawar (10:14:53 PM): canada's lame
roboplawar (10:15:08 PM): also it's in the unfortunate position of being next to the US
roboplawar (10:15:25 PM): Australia's about as far away as it can get, which is starting to look better and better

[Bodzilla]

well, what a joke.

[SnaFuBAR]

the house hasn't ok'd the bill yet so we've got some hope still.

too bad they can't raise the taxes of the douchebags involved/responsible only. idc if they become indentured servants, they can go EFF themselves with a fist full of barbwire.

[Bodzilla]

screw the fist and go for a welding lance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billionaires_for_Bush

jAv8Mv9tzoA

[Zeph]

*cries*
oh god, that was beautiful
Why dont people talk like that anymore?

[Zeph]

the house hasn't ok'd the bill yet so we've got some hope still.

too bad they can't raise the taxes of the douchebags involved/responsible only. idc if they become indentured servants, they can go EFF themselves with a fist full of barbwire.

Hahahaha, you're right. Someone writing for Yahoo news doesn't understand the government.

[ICEE]

Fuck this shit.

You know what, let's make like the Crimson Permanent Assurance, and sail the world looting all those fucking financial corporations for all they're worth. It's time for some forceful redistribution of wealth.

e:
roboplawar (10:14:48 PM): fuck canada
roboplawar (10:14:53 PM): canada's lame
roboplawar (10:15:08 PM): also it's in the unfortunate position of being next to the US
roboplawar (10:15:25 PM): Australia's about as far away as it can get, which is starting to look better and better

You realize that if America's economy goes down all the rest of the world is going to tumble right after, right?

[Zeph]

You realize that if America's economy goes down all the rest of the world is going to tumble right after, right?

only because we owe them. Even then, that's not always the case. There have been several instances where foreign markets have suffered and the rest of the world didn't bother. Honestly, the news media has more of an effect on the market than anything.

[Rob Oplawar]

I realize that. I'm pretty well resigned to a few years of economic shit. I'm just sayin, I'd rather not be ruled by the jackasses who are causing these problems. Maybe Obama will get elected and maybe he really will change things for the better, or maybe the US will be stuck with these morons and we'll either have to a: redo the US, or b: gtfo. gtfo sounds easier.


Or, maybe I could spend the next 20 years of my life training to be an astronaut, and then when Constellation takes me and the permanent settlement to the moon, I'll just claim it for myself. Flags don't mean shit. Anybody wants to dispute my claim, they can come up there and argue with me. And if they don't like it, I'll just threaten to send my lunar transit vehicle on a collision course with Washington DC. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

[jcap]

So they just fucked over the entire economy.

The banks and investment houses aren't being saved; they're being put on life support. The situation they are in right now is absolutely impossible to get out of. When the CEOs began decided to do business this way, they knew exactly what kind of mess they were getting into. Their goal from the beginning was the squeeze whatever they could out of the company in a few years, make a couple multi-million dollar paychecks, and then let it all collapse below them. They're not crying right now; they already made their life "earnings." All this is doing is prolonging the time it is going to take for them to close their doors and allow the CEOs to continue to rape the payroll and, in turn, the economy.

[Dwood]

You forget Fanny and Freddie. The forcing of companies to allow people to take the loans they would never be able to afford in the first place.




Because 133 Republicans voted against it. More Republicans voted against it than for it.

Uh, dood? If the democrats had those 95 votes, it would have passed. In fact, if they had merely converted 12 of their brethren, it would have passed.

But you can keep blaming the republicans if it makes you feel better...

Exactly. The Republicans didn't vote for it because they actually LISTENED to their constituents. 90 Democrats didn't vote for it because out of all of them, they were the ones who either A. Had the balls to listen to the people or B. Didn't have enough balls to take a stance on the bill.

Nancy Pelosi is a complete and total idiot. She has blamed Repub's with the failure of the bill and blamed the Bush Admin for us getting here in the first place. The current admin certainly helped us get to this point, but Democrats started the whole slide in the first place back in 1977 and then sped that slide up in 1993. Greed amongst lenders did the worst damage by marketing sub-prime loans.

Americans didn't want the bill passed. Americans the country over didn't want to foot the bill for greedy, self destructive lenders. For once in my life, I feel like the American people were heard in a definitive manner. It's gonna suck for everyone, but bailing out Main Street for getting greedy isn't the right answer period.

http://www.maximumpc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83536

[Zeph]

Exactly. The Republicans didn't vote for it because they actually LISTENED to their constituents. 90 Democrats didn't vote for it because out of all of them, they were the ones who either A. Had the balls to listen to the people or B. Didn't have enough balls to take a stance on the bill.

No, the rich republicans against this are wanting the economy to fail. After the depression, they're still going to have a shitload of money. They'll become the new financial leaders.

[Dwood]

No, the rich republicans against this are wanting the economy to fail. After the depression, they're still going to have a shitload of money. They'll become the new financial leaders.

... I disagree. You're a little too ready to accuse the Republicans. The vast majority of fortune 500 companies are extremely liberal.

And if they had as much money as you say they do, they would already be leading the *financial* world.

[Bodzilla]

I realize that. I'm pretty well resigned to a few years of economic shit. I'm just sayin, I'd rather not be ruled by the jackasses who are causing these problems. Maybe Obama will get elected and maybe he really will change things for the better, or maybe the US will be stuck with these morons and we'll either have to a: redo the US, or b: gtfo. gtfo sounds easier.


Or, maybe I could spend the next 20 years of my life training to be an astronaut, and then when Constellation takes me and the permanent settlement to the moon, I'll just claim it for myself. Flags don't mean shit. Anybody wants to dispute my claim, they can come up there and argue with me. And if they don't like it, I'll just threaten to send my lunar transit vehicle on a collision course with Washington DC. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
Fool Proof!

[Mass]

... I disagree. You're a little too ready to accuse the Republicans. The vast majority of fortune 500 companies are extremely liberal.

And if they had as much money as you say they do, they would already be leading the *financial* world.
And you're getting these "facts" where?

[Zeph]

... I disagree. You're a little too ready to accuse the Republicans. The vast majority of fortune 500 companies are extremely liberal.

And if they had as much money as you say they do, they would already be leading the *financial* world.

I'm not accusing republicans of anything. I'm simply describing what some of the rich ones are doing.

Please list proof of your statistical digression.

[dg]

How about they take all the analysts that fucked up the first time and reevaluate the different shares into actual high/low risk segments?

Oh wait. I'm being logical. Fuck.

[Sel]

The economy is hurtin

lol sarah palin