Obama to Potentially Force 18-25 year olds into Compusory Service

[Jean-Luc]

http://arkansasgopwing.blogspot.com/2008/11/obamas-proposed-chief-of-staff-favors.html

Real or not?



Seems fake to me but if real (Arkansas GOP wing?), I'd like to quote the 13th Amendment to this man.


"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

[JDMFSeanP]

In case you can't read none of this is Obama's opinion, which leads to you having a very misleading title.

[Kornman00]

It's time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us
uh yeah, uh no. :gtfo: with the damn patriotism bs I'm so fucking sick of it

[CN3089]

Rahm Emanuel is not Barack Obama, hth :ssh:



(Although I don't really see why this would be a bad thing to do vhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-shobon.gifv)

[ExAm]

IIRC you get a tax credit for it, but it's not compulsory. I could be wrong.

[jngrow]

http://arkansasgopwing.blogspot.com/2008/11/obamas-proposed-chief-of-staff-favors.html

Real or not?



Seems fake to me but if real (Arkansas GOP wing?), I'd like to quote the 13th Amendment to this man.


"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Um dude, what do you call a draft? It's happened before...

(note: I know this is not about a draft, this is in response to his article 13 sec 1 quote)

[CN3089]

IIRC you get a tax credit for it, but it's not compulsory. I could be wrong.

Read -> Comprehend -> Post http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

[ExAm]

Read -> Comprehend -> Post http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-colbert.gifI was referring to what I've read elsewhere. Please get some clarification before tossing out negative rep at the drop of a hat.

[legionaire45]

Well, better than being shipped off to some godforsaken desert on the other side of the world I guess...

[n00b1n8R]

Doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. They get the training to deal with emergency situations which then makes the community as a hole better off.

[Kalub]

No. I'll not be a little bitch because he told me to. If I wanted to do community service, I would, and that's how it is going to be.


In short, Fuck Off. I won't do it for my school when they tried to force me, and I'm not doing it for him either.

[Amit]

In short, Fuck Off. I won't do it for my school when they tried to force me, and I'm not doing it for him either.

I dunno how it works down there but in Ontario we're required to have 40 hours of community service to graduate. Are you saying that you were able to skip out of this? If so, do elaborate.

[Terry]

Yeah man fuck the community. Why should I ever give back!

[Jean-Luc]

In case you can't read none of this is Obama's opinion, which leads to you having a very misleading title.

Wow, that's not insulting at all.

I'm aware it's not Obama saying this, but with this man being the potential chief of staff, it is implied that if this goes through, Obama is in favor of it as well. I'll edit the title to stop the confusion, but I just thought it was fairly obvious. :(

[Con]

I dunno how it works down there but in Ontario we're required to have 40 hours of community service to graduate. Are you saying that you were able to skip out of this? If so, do elaborate.
30 here in BC. I've already racked up ~200 hours, and it's not hard. Anyone complaining about 50 should stop whining.

[Phopojijo]

If this is the worst thing the GOP can pull out of their butts... a quote from a book published ~2-3 years ago which was co-authored by the Chief of Staff stating that he would put mandatory community service in the highschool curriculum like so many other (Good to live in) nations are doing... it's not too bad.

Though I am against it... you should have the choice when and where you wish to volunteer. Though it should be *promoted* to volunteer in Highschool... mandated is a bit much.

[Jean-Luc]

Um dude, what do you call a draft? It's happened before...

(note: I know this is not about a draft, this is in response to his article 13 sec 1 quote)

Same thing can be said of a draft. Here's an article by Ron Paul that I found rather interesting:
http://www.debate-central.org/2006/research/a-draft-violates-individual-liberty

Talks about, among other things, how a draft not only violates two amendments, but it also is a detriment to military forces because it brings in new soldiers who really just don't want to be there, weakening overall morale.

[Kalub]

I dunno how it works down there but in Ontario we're required to have 40 hours of community service to graduate. Are you saying that you were able to skip out of this? If so, do elaborate.

They tried to force me to do the time and I told them to piss off. They tried for weeks to get me to do it, so eventually I told them if they halted my credits or did anything that would affect my GPA/Ability to graduate I'd sue.

They shut up, they always do.


And it's not that I don't care for the community or anything, but jesus, if I wanted to do something I would. Don't force me.

[CN3089]

baaaaawwww i'm a selfish lazy litigant douchebag

Good to know! http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-waycool.gif

[Kalub]

Yup.



I have enough stuff to do in my daily life.

[Mass]

I already have to do service learning hours....
:raise:

[jngrow]

My high school and middle school required hours. It's really not that bad.

[ExAm]

So did mine. It's not that big of a deal.

[Zeph]

Here's how it would work. Young people will know that between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, the nation will enlist them for three months of civilian service. They'll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community, where they will learn what to do in the event of biochemical, nuclear or conventional attack; how to assist others in an evacuation; how to respond when a levee breaks or we're hit by a natural disaster. These young people will be available to address their communities' most pressing needs.

Honestly, America could use that. I dont like the idea of it being mandatory, but we really really need it.

[armoman92]

Doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. They get the training to deal with emergency situations which then makes the community as a hole better off.

i agree, but it would still suck go through it.

[Kornman00]

I smell communists :downs:

[Kalub]

^This

[Skill]

Arkansas Republicans

Something anti-Obama

Real or not?

Not.

[n00b1n8R]

I smell communists :downs:
It's a step towards communism, but it's nowhere near it.

Not that communism is a bad idea or anything.

[Skill]

Not that communism is a bad idea or anything.
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8346/linklaughqc6.jpg

[Xetsuei]

It's a step towards communism, but it's nowhere near it.

Not that communism is a bad idea or anything.

Not a bad idea, but it just doesn't work in reality.

[Phopojijo]

Not a bad idea, but it just doesn't work in reality.Capitalism assumes everyone is greedy and sets up a system which pushes people to compete with each other.

Socialism assumes everyone is equal and sets up a system which encourages people to help each other to achieve a common goal.

Socialism fails when a Capitalist takes advantage of the system and turns it into a totalitarian system.

What would be ideal is to take the good points of each system... encouraged advancement and helping your fellow man... and graft them into a new system.

Unfortunately the "winners" of our Capitalist system don't want to relinquish their thrones. While it's possible for someone (like Google) to have a good idea and threaten to dethrone the top {unlike socialism which shouldn't even have a class-based hierarchy... but does in practice because someone capitalizes on its trusting nature} it's not going to happen because of the investment nature of the world... and if someone threatens that -- well then humans have a nasty tendency of dying when people in power don't like you.

So...

Capitalism has the same problems as Socialism... just we believe it doesn't because we see hard work and skill get rewarded. In reality it was only the last 30 years where we actually have the technology and education to break social classes.

And what leftists with similar ideals to me want is to allow anyone to choose their own social class based on their skill. Sounds like Capitalism... however unlike capitalism, the fundamental tools (healthcare, education, communication) are given to all.

Kinda hard to be the next Hemingway if you were not given enough socialized education to be literate.

[Rob Oplawar]

Back on the topic of compulsory service, well, I think the country could really benefit from everybody spending the time to serve the community, but it should never be mandatory- aside from it being a bad idea in general it just goes against the constitution.

I actually quite like the idea of a tax credit. That would work very well for me, as I'm paying my own way through college, mostly.
There are many people who don't need the tax credit, having wealthy parents or loads of scholarships paying their college bills. In the scholarships case that would still work well- it's fine to let them do their thing because typically to get into that position you have to already be contributing to your community, if in no other way than being a well-educated individual.

Three months seems like a little much, though. I have trouble picturing myself actually doing that, unless it were mandatory. If they were going to do that, they would need to offer some very strong incentive (aside from mandate).

[Skill]

Finland has mandatory military service for all its male citizens, six months minimum, and their country's doing great.

[Dwood]

unlike capitalism, the fundamental tools (healthcare, education, communication) are given to all.

Kinda hard to be the next Hemingway if you were not given enough socialized education to be literate.


Good idea. I give it another... 50-100 years before that becomes acceptable in America without lowering quality of life for everyone WHILE the quality is not only somewhat consistent but good.

(Let's face it, programs will begin doing a teacher's job in that timeframe)


Oh and yes, it's also kind of hard to have a next generation to look forward to if we all kill them before they're born.

/OT

My idea was that if the Mexicans here illegally want to stay then they need to apply for the military and serve for 3-5 years in tours of duty.

[Phopojijo]

What are you talking about?

[Dwood]

What are you talking about?


It depends. Do you understand what you typed? What don't you understand?

[CN3089]

Good idea. I give it another... 50-100 years before that becomes acceptable in America without lowering quality of life for everyone WHILE the quality is not only somewhat consistent but good.
You're saying America is less capable of providing than Scandinavia or even Canada? http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/confused.gif


Oh and yes, it's also kind of hard to have a next generation to look forward to if we all kill them before they're born. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-can.gif


My idea was that if the Mexicans here illegally want to stay then they need to apply for the military and serve for 3-5 years in tours of duty.is this a fakepost, got damn http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-doh.gif

[Phopojijo]

Oh and yes, it's also kind of hard to have a next generation to look forward to if we all kill them before they're born.I have no clue what you're referring to. Your other two points I could discuss, but first I want to know what you were talking about with this one.

[CN3089]

I have no clue what you're referring to. Your other two points I could discuss, but first I want to know what you were talking about with this one.

Haven't you heard? Obama wants to make abortion mandatory! http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-downspatriot.gif

[Skill]

Oh and yes, it's also kind of hard to have a next generation to look forward to if we all kill them before they're born.
Christ, you're projecting so hard I bet you also think FEMA is going to put political dissenters into concentration camps.

[Phopojijo]

Is that what the right-evangelists are feeding their grassroots these days?

But if they do abort all our kids... who will buy this book?
http://www.shopaim.org/assets/images/images/books/help_mon.jpg

...

Anyway, now that I know your second argument isn't even worth discussing... I'll focus on the other two which have slightly more merit.


My idea was that if the Mexicans here illegally want to stay then they need to apply for the military and serve for 3-5 years in tours of duty.Kinda hard if they're illegal.


Good idea. I give it another... 50-100 years before that becomes acceptable in America without lowering quality of life for everyone WHILE the quality is not only somewhat consistent but good.You do have some merit there... the American system has been focused around screwing the lower class for so long, if we just up and change we'll have some growth pains.

That's why we invented the term baby steps.

You see... if you start by removing the legal requirement to markup prescription medication thousands of dollars per year over its value... like Canada and other countries have done... you, as tax payers, paid nothing... and yet you are making progress in the good direction.

You see... the best way accomplishing a goal is to make slow progress towards it. The wrong way to accomplish a goal is to say it might cause pain for a short period... let's move in this direction which we know will screw us perpetually.

[Mass]

I actually quite like the idea of a tax credit. That would work very well for me, as I'm paying my own way through college, mostly.

Why not just have government jobs that are flexible and could fit into a college students schedule, during the summer or on Sundays or something, it could pay with a stipend and not complicate the tax code. People would be providing all the information that the government would need to award them a tax credit by signing up for these jobs instead of making claims and necessitating more audits, which I think is something college students could do without.

I agree, though.

BUT GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS IS SOCIALIZM
THE NEW DEEL WAS A COMMUNIST PLOTT

[Skill]

Why not just have government jobs that are flexible
That's an oxymoron.

[LinkandKvel]

Why not just have government jobs that are flexible and could fit into a college students schedule, during the summer or on Sundays or something, it could pay with a stipend and not complicate the tax code. People would be providing all the information that the government would need to award them a tax credit by signing up for these jobs instead of making claims and necessitating more audits, which I think is something college students could do without.

I agree, though.The government has never heard of these so called "good ideas" before.

[Mass]

That's an oxymoron.
You can set up paid community service, is what I'm saying.

[Dwood]

I have no clue what you're referring to. Your other two points I could discuss, but first I want to know what you were talking about with this one.

On a serious note: (Not really in reply to anyone, keep that in mind)

People aren't having kids any more. The population pyramid is turning upside down on itself.

People would be having kids (despite any pro or anti abortion arguments) if Abortion were illegal. [Yes, it is very politically incorrect. It's the truth]

Oh, and my illegal immigrants serving the military was a solid idea. It would pass through a lot of people, just tack on English literacy courses in those 5 years and we call it good.


Phop- The Government doesn't do Baby steps very well. They like to do dramatic improvements in 5 year time-frames. That's too fast.

Your idea would need to be moved along as science tech and generally everything of the like progresses. Like, 10 years between each step.

What are we ready for now? Quite frankly, nothing. It's going to be another 10 years before we can say for sure we are 100% recovered and ready to handle more programs.

I just got an idea lol.

We detail a plan that would get us to the ideal stage of Capitalistic-Socialism balance that we possibly can.

As a right-wing Nutjob I don't have any problem whatsoever with the philosophy, I just have a problem with the people running the show. My problem with this whole *tax credit* thing for me, is that they are taking money from people who earned it (creating jobs, btw) and sending it off to people who didn't/don't work. Aside from the Sally sob stories and Harry howl stories, the rich earned their money and in the way they did, created jobs. They are then going to use that money to create jobs.

I'm simply waiting for the tech to reach that level where you know, it's cheap, advanced, and not half bad

[Anton]

You don't know what you are talking about do you...

Flipping the pyramid on population growth?.. Excuse me, but the last time I check the world's population has exploded substantially within the last 50 years.

I can't go 10 feet without seeing a pregnant teen or adult. Don't give me abortion will take those babies away either. Abortion is frowned upon where I live.

You have some weird views my friend, but it's your views so we can say nothing of it.

[teh lag]

On a serious note: (Not really in reply to anyone, keep that in mind)

People aren't having kids any more. The population pyramid is turning upside down on itself.

People would be having kids (despite any pro or anti abortion arguments) if Abortion were illegal. [Yes, it is very politically incorrect. It's the truth]


http://www.decodingrevelation.org/images/world%20population%20growth1.gif

omg dude u r rite abortion it is kilin so many babees our populasin is guna shrin wer gona die ouyt1!1

You're an idiot through and through, aren't you? Do you have even the slightest grasp of the world outside of your own twisted view? Or are you just a really dedicated troll?

[Dwood]

You have some weird views my friend, but it's your views so we can say nothing of it.

Btw.. you just said something of them.


One on the left is of a growing population, one on the right is of a stagnant one.






(Finnish Charts ftw)

http://www.stat.fi/tup/suomi90/joulukuu_en_001.jpg

http://www.stat.fi/tup/suomi90/joulukuu_en.html



Do i need to explain it to you?

Edit:

How is it possible the Population can rise with falling birthrates?

When we have more old people than young people what happens?


Oh the site explains it for you:




Finland's population is greying - labour shortage looms

On the 90th anniversary of her independence Finland has the world's fastest ageing population. The Baby Boomers are retiring, and the lengthened life expectancy will increase the size of the elderly population in the coming years. The effects from the population development that has gone on for decades are now becoming visible: because the fertility rate has already stayed below the reproduction rate for a generation, more people are exiting working age than entering it. The diminished supply of labour will inadvertently lead to labour shortage.




As matters stand, the shortage of labour can only be solved by attracting labour from abroad. Otherwise the inescapable consequences will be reduced labour force and declining economy. There will not be enough tax payers to sustain the rapidly rising number of pensioners. The growth in the number of elderly people not only means risen pension expenditure but also increased need for health care and other services. How the future will shape up will largely depend on the development of immigration into Finland.



It's not just in Finland, look in other countries as well.

[teh lag]

Oh dude right, I forgot we were all living in finland. Plus, abortion is clearly the only reason for decline in growth (and only decline; not "people not having babies" as you nicely twisted it), and what the world REALLY needs to worry about is a delining population - it's not like there's overpopulation anywhere.

[Skill]

Now I see why your rep is disabled.

Honestly, you're too stupid for me to justify wasting time arguing with you.

Good job thinking Finland = USA though.

[LinkandKvel]

^ I like this new guy.

[Skill]

^ I like this new guy.
:-3

[Anton]

I liked him before you. :[

Still friends? D:

[t3h m00kz]

^ I like this new guy.

I don't. HE'S A DICK :V!!!

Do that mean I are troll? :(

[Phopojijo]

Oh dude right, I forgot we were all living in finland. Plus, abortion is clearly the only reason for decline in growth (and only decline; not "people not having babies" as you nicely twisted it), and what the world REALLY needs to worry about is a delining population - it's not like there's overpopulation anywhere.Nah, he's actually right about the decline in population.

... Or rather, decline in rate of population growth...

People these days are having less and less children... it is a fact for most Western countries, including Canada, USA, etc.

Two questions arise... 1) Is it due to abortion? and 2) Does it honestly matter?

The first answer is plainly no. The major issue is that people don't get married at the first possible opportunity and women don't end up housewives to care for their 3-4 children.

To further prove the first answer... this trend is just as true in countries with abortion, as in countries without abortion.

The second answer is more gray, but I'd say no as well. We'll end up having a labour shortage as the elderly retire, however a labour shortage doesn't imply the country will collapse. Also, we're already well overpopulated. Less people = more wealth per person.

If it's really an issue for you... petition government to pass a law that all women must be married by age 25 and attempt to have a child by age 30.

... and good luck with that :p
***************
Btw, as I was saying... if you cannot control which side of the border an illegal immigrant is on... how can you force them into military service?

Bare in mind... unless it's a voluntary act... which no-one will agree to... there are kinda... international laws... against detaining a citizen of another country... and forcing them into military service.
***************
Also like I said before... about the whole not doing baby steps thing... that's the problem... fix it Don't tamper with (break) everything but it... fix IT.

[Skill]

Less people = more wealth per person.

You honestly believe that.

Maybe if you look at the average wealth for all people, but individually you will see the same divisive gaps you already see in wealth distribution in America today. I have yet to see any evidence proving your point.

[Phopojijo]

I was speaking in terms of total population versus total material wealth for the country as a whole.

(If hypothetically both measurements were taken with all other variables set constant)

[Skill]

I was speaking in terms of total population versus total material wealth for the country as a whole.

(If hypothetically both measurements were taken with all other variables set constant)
Oh, all right. Your post just wasn't terribly specific about that.

[Phopojijo]

Nah it's fine, it's a fairly moot point regardless.

[ExAm]

Has anyone even taken notice that we could really use a population growth stop right now? The world's cities are overcrowded as it is, and we shouldn't be sprawling our living spaces and farms and production facilities out into the unspoiled wilderness at the rate we are. Hence, if the population were to stop growing, and even decline a bit, that would be pretty good news. We'd only be having a problem when it reaches critical levels, and by then we'd realize it and the world's governments would be putting out procreation propaganda left and right.

[n00b1n8R]

China's way ahead of you.

I'd be all for a 2 child policy.

[FluffyDucky™]

To bad they started emigrating then hey n00b? >_>

[n00b1n8R]

I wouldn't know. I don't live in a major city. :haw:

[Mass]

Too bad that there is a massive gender unbalance in China caused by that policy which has resulted in the forming of large paramilitary groups.

I think people have a right to have abortion available, but not encouraged.

E: For the sake of on-topic-ness, I 'd like to point out the Emanuel is the son of an Israeli and they draft every single young person for military service for two to three years. Relative to that three months of civilian service is a pretty small thing to ask.

[Rob Oplawar]

Then everybody'd be calling my little brother "Third!", but he'd show them by becoming the most brilliant military mind the world has ever seen.

Wait, that means I'm a horrendously amoral person and my other brother is a girl...

[Dwood]

Wait, that means I'm a horrendously amoral person and my other brother is a girl...

Oh but then again you'd be the ruler of the planet one day...

(Read the Ender's Shadow series man)

@ Mass

Seriously though, the only way to decrease population without losing economy is to kill the older people. Other wise no matter how much good you've done by limiting births, you've caused a larger problem than you've fixed.

@ Phop:

Abortion stats:
http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm

Just look at the yearly abortions almost half the page down. That means that the america would, yearly, have about 1 million extra children in the years 1977 and up. That's about 31 million potential extra workers for the United States to replace the old.



The major issue is that people don't get married at the first possible opportunity and women don't end up housewives to care for their 3-4 children.


I disagree. To a point. The major issue is that we aren't having kids, and abortion in the U.S. is one of the problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

Without abortion, there would be a good 10% more people out there to replace the aging population. That population isn't going to be there because abortion is allowed.

[Rob Oplawar]

We're not overpopulated yet. We just need to get the worldwide birth rate to match the worldwide death rate and we'll be peachy.

[Rentafence]

We're not overpopulated yet. We just need to get the worldwide birth rate to match the worldwide death rate and we'll be peachy.

Once again, China is ahead of us by putting toxins in their food. :haw:

[DaneO'Roo]

"just calm down on your rutting for a couple of seconds, while we figure out this 'food-air' deal. Quit filling up the world with your little cabbages."

-Bill Hicks

[teh lag]

@ Phop:

Abortion stats:
http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm

Just look at the yearly abortions almost half the page down. That means that the america would, yearly, have about 1 million extra children in the years 1977 and up. That's about 31 million potential extra workers for the United States to replace the old.



I disagree. To a point. The major issue is that we aren't having AS MANY FFS kids, and abortion in the U.S. is one of the problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

Without abortion, there would be a good 10% more people out there to replace the aging population. That population isn't going to be there because abortion is allowed.

Nice job bending your statistics there. First, that's 31mil spread over 31 years, not all at once. By the time the last generation is ready to work, the first one will be only ~10 years away from retiring. Not to mention that our birth rate exceeds our death rate by 6 people per thousand according to the CIA (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html). That's double the difference of Canada. Also, why do you still insist on saying "we aren't having kids," when our pop. growth rate is .88% a year? (For comparison, China's is .62%) (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2002.html) I would hardly say there's an impending crisis regarding birth rates in the U.S. Our population has been steadily rising (http://www.npg.org/images/usprojgrowth.jpg) even since the legalization of abortion.

[Phopojijo]

I disagree. To a point. The major issue is that we aren't having kids, and abortion in the U.S. is one of the problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

Without abortion, there would be a good 10% more people out there to replace the aging population. That population isn't going to be there because abortion is allowed.Firstly... who's to say denying the abortions wouldn't just lead to more welfare. Secondly... there are still enough people in this world.

They needed a reason to have an abortion...


Reasons in 2004. Among the structured survey respondents, the two most common reasons were "having a baby would dramatically change my life" and "I can't afford a baby now" (cited by 74% and 73%, respectively--Table 2)source... it's a long one (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NNR/is_/ai_n15623603)

If 73% couldn't afford their child... you think that child would be likely helping the economy... or pushing the potential mother from the workforce into the welfare class in a decent fraction of those cases?

I'm not saying "Support abortions to save the government money!" But saying it'll hurt the economy is crap... there are way too many factors to state one way or the other in the mean case.

[Bodzilla]

I disagree. To a point. The major issue is that we aren't having kids, and abortion in the U.S. is one of the problems.

i'll just come out and say it, your a fucking idiot.

Over the course of the last 30 years women have strived for equality and to role with the big boys that controlled all the powerful institutions and corporations. This has led to a shift in thinking patterns and in many, MANY case's peoples careers are more important then being a baby factory during there 20's.
Because having a baby early during life is a career killer plain and simple.

The thing is that once they finally get to a powerful or import position in their career they're in their late 30's and it's harder for them to have kids, or the desire to have them isn't as strong as it was before.

it's got fucking nothing to do with abortion.

[DarkHalo003]

I don't like the fact that I'm forced to do anything, especially for the gov't. I have my own life and other matters to attend to. But if they are trying to get civilians to be protective of themselves, than I can see the idea of what they are doing.

[Dwood]

Ontopic:

That guy is on drugs. Just look at his face!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZTsdiIlN_8s/SRTYoOwyRfI/AAAAAAAAG0Y/rsjRnx5PcfI/s200/rahm-emanuel.jpg

How could Obama choose such a.. a.. I can't even describe it.

Oh and I don't really have a problem with the whole service thing, however I would make them optional, like Civil Service in your community which you earn volunteer credits.

[DarkHalo003]

Well, he does look funny, but he's part of our new gov't. Got to put trust in them.

[LinkandKvel]

Ontopic:

That guy is on drugs. Just look at his face!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZTsdiIlN_8s/SRTYoOwyRfI/AAAAAAAAG0Y/rsjRnx5PcfI/s200/rahm-emanuel.jpg

How could Obama choose such a.. a.. I can't even describe it.

Oh and I don't really have a problem with the whole service thing, however I would make them optional, like Civil Service in your community which you earn volunteer credits.
This woman is on drugs. Just look at her face!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1398/542389855_811a187e7b.jpg

[Donut]

palin just looks excited in that picture tbh. the other guy has like... red eyes
vampire mb? :XD:

[Mass]

How could Obama choose such a... a...

Jew?

I mean, he looks the part.

[Phopojijo]

Well, he does look funny, but he's part of our new gov't. Got to put trust in them.Not really... always be critical of your government. It's what your Founding Fathers fought for.

[DarkHalo003]

Not really... always be critical of your government. It's what your Founding Fathers fought for.
Yeah, but I'm implying that we should trust our gov't as well. I mean, as long as the gov't doesn't start badgering people for extra cash beyond the taxes that are already needed to be paid (don't get me started, my family is annoying as hell when taxes role by), than I'm not too concerned. I'm also just accepting that our gov't is going to be run by someone different, so I'm trying to cope with that too. I'm also younger than 18, so not much I can do to criticize the gov't.

[Skill]

Yeah, but I'm implying that we should trust our gov't as well. I mean, as long as the gov't doesn't start badgering people for extra cash beyond the taxes that are already needed to be paid (don't get me started, my family is annoying as hell when taxes role by), than I'm not too concerned. I'm also just accepting that our gov't is going to be run by someone different, so I'm trying to cope with that too. I'm also younger than 18, so not much I can do to criticize the gov't.
It's this attitude of complacency that caused things like this to happen:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6905/1984fx9.jpg

Always do whatever you can to make sure the government represents you. Don't let them screw you over, because it's your fault for not putting up a fight.

[Phopojijo]

Yeah, but I'm implying that we should trust our gov't as well. I mean, as long as the gov't doesn't start badgering people for extra cash beyond the taxes that are already needed to be paid (don't get me started, my family is annoying as hell when taxes role by), than I'm not too concerned. I'm also just accepting that our gov't is going to be run by someone different, so I'm trying to cope with that too. I'm also younger than 18, so not much I can do to criticize the gov't.There's a difference between being *paranoid* and not trusting your government.

If the president went on the TV tomorrow and said "We're tapping phones for the sake of national security" -- would you trust them?

[itszutak]

If the president went on the TV tomorrow and said "We're tapping phones for the sake of national security" -- would you trust them?
Bush did this already, in the name of anti-terrorism

[Phopojijo]

On the contrary, he never said he was going to do it... it just came out on its own :p

But that's beyond the point.

[rossmum]

It's this attitude of complacency that caused things like this to happen:



Always do whatever you can to make sure the government represents [I]you. Don't let them screw you over, because it's your fault for not putting up a fight.
...What? There's a very big difference between 1984 and CCTV in public spaces, particularly late-night buses where it's needed. I hate having my privacy intruded upon, but I am damn glad that buses and trains are fitted with cameras here, too. That way, if some idiot tries to mug me, at least they have some ability to see who it was.

As for the topic at hand, national service is great as long as it doesn't mean deployment to a warzone. Knowing the way the US military is headed at the moment, it'd turn more into a draft than national service, and drafts certainly aren't great. Six months or a year of compulsory service does a lot of good though, especially in a country like the US where guns abound and idiots do too. At least by the time they come out, they'll have gun safety drilled into them and possibly a little respect for authority, too.

[Skill]

...What? There's a very big difference between 1984 and CCTV in public spaces, particularly late-night buses where it's needed. I hate having my privacy intruded upon, but I am damn glad that buses and trains are fitted with cameras here, too. That way, if some idiot tries to mug me, at least they have some ability to see who it was.
Because a criminal is totally not going to disguise their face.


As for the topic at hand, national service is great as long as it doesn't mean deployment to a warzone. Knowing the way the US military is headed at the moment, it'd turn more into a draft than national service, and drafts certainly aren't great.
It will not be a draft. Reinstating the draft would be all the nails in the coffin for whoever reinstates it. Civilian service is a great idea. It helps train youth to not be a complete piece of shit and gives them life skills (assuming it isn't military service. The only valuable skill you learn there is how to kill, but then again that's a pretty damn valuable skill.).

[rossmum]

Because a criminal is totally not going to disguise their face.
Some of them don't, actually. They're not exactly masterminds, are they?

[Skill]

Some of them don't, actually. They're not exactly masterminds, are they?
They're definitely not the smartest crayons in the box.

But that's exactly why they're criminals.

The point is, criminals know of these systems, and they see in the news of other criminals being identified by cameras (it's still a low percentage) and caught. Anyone with half a brain cell would think to disguise their face.

[klange]

There's a difference between being *paranoid* and not trusting your government.

If the president went on the TV tomorrow and said "We're tapping phones for the sake of national security" -- would you trust them?

To be quite frank with you, if Bush actually got on TV, went out in front of everyone and said exactly that, I'd probably trust him. If he actually said, word-for-word "We're tapping your phones for the sake of national security", yes, I would trust him.

That's not how they are phrasing it.

[Mass]

Some of them don't, actually. They're not exactly masterminds, are they?
Yeah, especially the type who mug you on public trans.

[Skill]

To be quite frank with you, if Bush actually got on TV, went out in front of everyone and said exactly that, I'd probably trust him. If he actually said, word-for-word "We're tapping your phones for the sake of national security", yes, I would trust him.

That's not how they are phrasing it.
They aren't phrasing it at all. They're just tapping our phones without having the decency to tell us.

[Phopojijo]

They aren't phrasing it at all. They're just tapping our phones without having the decency to tell us.The situation was hypothetical... I wasn't referring to the actual illegal wiretapping that was taking place.