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MetKiller Joe
January 14th, 2009, 09:23 PM
I wrote the following as extra credit. We've recently read James Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist of the Young Man and had a discussion about cliques and how one conforms to them.

This contains my reflection on Joyce's thoughts on conformity (only small parts), cliques + individuality, and myself.


Definition of Clique:
a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons ; especially : one held together by common interests, views, or purposes

Expression:
an act, process, or instance of representing in a medium (as words) : utterance (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/utterance) <freedom of expression> b (1): something that manifests, embodies, or symbolizes something else <this gift is an expression of my admiration for you> (2): a significant word or phrase (3): a mathematical or logical symbol or a meaningful combination of symbols (4): the detectable effect of a gene ; also : expressivity (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expressivity) 1

Individuality:
total character peculiar to and distinguishing an individual (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/individual) from others b: personality (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/personality)




Micro-cliques (primary and secondary education mainly):

In general, people tend to group with friends. They think that this is less risky than joining other groups and risking their current friendships. They feel their friends will abandon them for going outside of this group mentality.

With Joyce, this was always his stand, but he felt that in order to join a group you have to loose some of yourself. You get absorbed.

Now, each individual clique has its own style, language, methods, essences, and whatever else makes them unique; these are their characteristics and they dare not trade them because they wouldn't be that anymore if they did. Often, cliques form because of this insecurity of “who am I”. Well, a clique will fill that void with love and care, but what it won't do is make your mind open. It will not let you explore different human experiences and become more mature and knowledgeable about society in general.
If you join a clique, and that clique, for example, has a taboo on something. That is a force which you must obey. The threat of doing something else is that you have no idea of the returns of that social or intellectual investment, and, hey, you've got a perfectly good set of ideals right there. These ideals have filled the void. Why not repay them by obeying the rules?

Joyce would be all to experienced with this kind of scenario. He begins by not getting involved, but slowly, and however more painful, he creates his own persona.

I am not saying that becoming an artist is something one has to do in order to become individual. One need not even put an effort in the act of becoming an individual; that is, you do not have to be an artist, molding your persona to be rebellious against these external forces of the cliques. No, nature will take its course, and you will simply see that the way any clique is formed is biased on only a few set of characteristics.
You will find that your characteristics, you remember, the ones one loses after entering a clique, come back to you. You are yourself again, and it doesn't matter if you are black, white, Latino, red head, blond head, short, tall, have an IQ of 100 or 90, artsy or not, you will find yourself by experiencing others and reacting. You will find that not only is the concept of a clique completely counterproductive to individualism, but once you get out of it, you realize that you never had much in common. Trying to fit in is like a square pipe inside a cylinder; you may manage it, but I guarantee that something will get cut off, and that will be what makes you you.




Myself:

I'll be the first to admit that I've joined a clique, so I'm not completely excused from Joyce's accusations (and from my own).
Have I lost individuality by joining a clique? Probably, but there will always be a price to be paid. I came from Europe, and there are many things we do over there that over here would automatically be tagged as “gay” (I know that this is an extreme perversion of the definition, and I abhore anybodies use of it this way). So, as a human, and needing to be social, one has to give up some of that old world charm. I conformed to an extent, but obviously not enough to be this, that, or the other thing.
I'll admit, I do not like Joyce's “you are conforming, you are bad” philosophy. It seems that in being extremely individualistic, he abandoned the part of the himself that was inexperienced and insecure (this part also contained cautiousness and wanting to learn). He became arrogant in that sense. Joyce's line in Portrait exemplifies this, “I will forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of society.”

When people started appreciating how I acted with the minimal amount of conformity I needed to be assimilated into American culture, I stopped. Why put more effort into something I am not? I have grown since my coming in the states. If people, even my friends, had seen what kind of a person I was 6 years ago compared to now they wouldn't have give me a second thought. I would have been that backwards Slavic kid, as I was in elementary and middle school. Even now, by being myself, an artist and a programmer/computer geek, I somehow have become undefinable and therefore unknown and somewhat dangerous (I'm just relying on simple psychology); this is not exactly what people say of course, I have no idea what is people's heads, but I know that my deariest friend and my parents simply cannot classify who I am or what I am (to them, the word artist and programmer cannot be the same person, or rather they've never experienced it before). This made me depressed for a while, but then I realized it is what makes me, myself and I was overwhelmed with joy (and started expressing myself in ways I never even thought possible).


Culture in General:

Culture and status quo are limits that are to be respected for their contribution to the sanity of oneself, but once one has achieved this sanity, once you have thought about who you are and realized it your friends will respect you rather than chastise you. This is not when you turn your back on them, as Joyce did with his country (and then continued to write about it), it is when you turn back to them and say, “Hey, now that you know who I am, I'll show you who I really am.” If they stop being your friends, they never were in the first place. But if you can wheedle out of the status quo and then let others realize that expression is not a bad thing, you make them happier, you feel better because of this, and, in the end, you have just made society that much more equal by letting expression and individuality reign supreme (within the limits of liberties of course).
Your thoughts?

DrunkenSamus
January 14th, 2009, 09:38 PM
Doog.

flibitijibibo
January 14th, 2009, 09:56 PM
I'll admit, I do not like Joyce's “you are conforming, you are bad” philosophy. It seems that in being extremely individualistic, he abandoned the part of the himself that was inexperienced and insecure (this part also contained cautiousness and wanting to learn). He became arrogant in that sense. Joyce's line in Portrait exemplifies this, “I will forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of society.”That's an important point to make. I actually like to think that the concept of nonconformism has become a clique in itself, a lot like the goth kids in South Park. I always thought the best way to avoid this was to simply do what you believe is right/wrong or whatever, and if it happens to be a consensus among a group of people, go ahead and be, well, a group. This is another important thing that I always found important: the difference between a group and a clique. Cliques are cliche, they exist simply to fill some nonexistent hole, most likely unnecessary but are there just because people are just impressed by the cool kids on the teebee. That sounds like an old person comment, but I just tells what I sees. Groups are almost as unique as, say, an individual, they sourced from people who happened to have similar beliefs/characteristics/other factors I can't think of right now. Think about how one is to join these two categories. Usually people join a clique simply because it's the cool crowd or whatever (see? cliche) while groups gain new members that are there to share their common interest(s). The latter enables people to truly be an individual while still having a network of friends.

lolwalloftext

Bodzilla
January 14th, 2009, 09:59 PM
i always thought a cliche was the petition of a statement or phrase till it became meaningless through overuse.

such as
"the team gave 110%" i mean, honestly how often do you hear that.

edit just noticed the spelling difference of Cliques and and cliche... hmm.
all a shame tbh, i never had problems going out to other groups talking to people, infact i generally floated in and between 3-4 different groups of people during highschool. i cant fathom giving up a part of myself to fit in, it's never been an option to me.

fun fact:
at my school "the popular group" where actually the least popular groups in the year.

Ifafudafi
January 15th, 2009, 12:02 AM
During my late elementary/early middleschool years, I couldn't stand and never took part in cliques, and acted completely how I thought was right and proper. Naturally, there was always a special corner allocated at the lunch/classroom table for me. This, in essence, is the concept of individualism, but I'm more partial to your opinion in that while comletely devoting yourself to the ideals and habits of a single group is ultimately destructive, a small bit of conformity is simply necessary in order to build and evolve any kind of relationship.

In high school, I still had a nice little corner with my name on it, but rather than expressing and constantly regurgitating my own thoughts and beliefs onto everybody else, I accepted those of others that were near, if not necessarily matching, my own. I definitely had a circle of friends which I'd take refuge in, but neither me or them really "belonged" to specific group. We all were just the sort of leftovers; not quite the outcasts, but those who can't fit into a clique and therefore, to a sense, make one of their own, although it wasn't as exclusive and obvious as the usual Jock/Nerd/Asian/etc. groups. Also, we didn't all share that many common interests, other than our status as quasi-rejects.

IMHO, a group of people you can confide in is an emotional necessity. Isolation, while appealing to an extent, simply isn't psychologically "healthy." But devoting yourself to a group and denying your talents, interests, and intellect simply for the sake of having a bunch of "friends" isn't any better.

ExAm
January 15th, 2009, 12:03 AM
i always thought a cliche was the petition of a statement or phrase till it became meaningless through overuse.

such as
"the team gave 110%" i mean, honestly how often do you hear that.

edit just noticed the spelling difference of Cliques and and cliche... hmm.
all a shame tbh, i never had problems going out to other groups talking to people, infact i generally floated in and between 3-4 different groups of people during highschool. i cant fathom giving up a part of myself to fit in, it's never been an option to me.

fun fact:
at my school "the popular group" where actually the least popular groups in the year.Cliche =/= Clique

p0lar_bear
January 15th, 2009, 12:21 AM
:words:

Story of my life.

I was always at the bottom of the food chain in elementary school and middle school (pretty much because I was a tried and true outcast who never knew when to shut his mouth). When I got into high school, I kept to myself mostly. On the bus, I always sat near a group of somewhat rowdy people. I'd sit there, listen to them, laugh whenever something funny was done, and chime in only at the most appropriate times. I kind of eased my way into the group, and it was by no means a clique. Nobody had anything in common besides humor (and we all somehow managed to pick up on Magic: The Gathering sometime during our sophomore year); there was a spastic and random puerto rican, the whitest black kid i have ever met, a quick-witted tough guy, two normal (compared to everyone else) girls, and myself, a TI-83+ script kiddie with assburgers, and we all managed to get along and have great times.

It's all about whether or not the group contributes to each other and makes time worthwhile. If they're just sticking together for the sake of sticking together, what's the point?

Apoc4lypse
January 15th, 2009, 12:40 AM
i always thought a cliche was the petition of a statement or phrase till it became meaningless through overuse.

such as
"the team gave 110%" i mean, honestly how often do you hear that.

edit just noticed the spelling difference of Cliques and and cliche... hmm.
all a shame tbh, i never had problems going out to other groups talking to people, infact i generally floated in and between 3-4 different groups of people during highschool. i cant fathom giving up a part of myself to fit in, it's never been an option to me.

Sounds like what I did in highschool, who needs groups or cliques...

I had friends from different cliques people who were simillar to me through personality or hobbies/talents or what ever. I understand having to conform tho if your from a different culture, then again that can still be your choice, Id be friends wit the random slovic kid haha.

As for groups well I have.. my friends who snowboard and the ones who don't the ones who party the ones who don't the ones who game and the ones who don't.. etc, etc..

One thing I never understood tho is the common misconception most people have that when you get invited to do something you can't invite your own friends... no one does this enough and its why people become disconnected from each other. No reason you can't invite other people if its ok with your other friends, most people just assume because they think there different they can't hangout together. /rant

LinkandKvel
January 15th, 2009, 03:27 AM
I act myself, and for some reason I've always been popular among everyone through all my school years. Also we really don't have cliques at my school accept the predominantly blacks and a few whites/white black kids. Hell I'm even cool with them and the other clique doesn't care. I guess you could say I'm my own clique.

DaneO'Roo
January 15th, 2009, 04:52 AM
I act myself, and for some reason I've always been popular among everyone through all my school years.

So you say.


Also we really don't have cliques at my school accept the predominantly blacks and a few whites/white black kids.

I find it ironic, that you put yourself in the "black" club, when you are actually black white, which you then separated into another group as being different and not within your preferred social network.

The punchline is that your Xbox live avatar thing is a white guy.


You have issues.



Hell I'm even cool with them and the other clique doesn't care. I guess you could say I'm my own clique.

Yeah that's quite obvious, you individual you. Reach any deeper into that thought and you'll be pulling lint out of your belly button.




Also, this thread reminds me, if anyone hasn't seen the latest South Park episode, where Butters thinks Vampires are overtaking south park, watch it now online, wherever you can find it. It demonstrates a great point.

MetKiller Joe
January 15th, 2009, 09:26 AM
I act myself, and for some reason I've always been popular among everyone through all my school years. Also we really don't have cliques at my school accept the predominantly blacks and a few whites/white black kids. Hell I'm even cool with them and the other clique doesn't care. I guess you could say I'm my own clique.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, individual as you might be, you are still bragging about how you are accepted everywhere.

To me, this is nothing more than you picking apart each clique, finding what they like, and then using it to gain favor (in order to get attention). Individuality is not "I'm accepted by everybody" because you cannot be a book and not be a book at the same time.

Then again, I've seen people that are successful inter-clique, but even those people are just extremely nice people and go around the geek sub-cliques (internet geeks, design geeks, computer geeks, etc).

If this is a talent of yours, though, I say great, you will live a very fulfilled life with many friends.

LinkandKvel
January 15th, 2009, 11:46 AM
I don't any of that as bragging, I'm just telling how it is for me. I am a nice person, and social, so I guess naturally people just like me. Also I don't "this is nothing more than you picking apart each clique, finding what they like, and then using it to gain favor". Our cliques are more interlaced betwix each other so there isn't much drama at our school either. Although I don't know if goths, rednecks, etc. will like me seeming as we don't have any of them.

DaneO'Roo
January 15th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Link, if I was at your school, I probably wouldn't like you at all.


<3

TeeKup
January 15th, 2009, 03:05 PM
I was the local fag that hung out with the people that actually had common sense. We ignored the cliques and did what we wanted, ignoring them. High school was fun especially in the later years because all the conformists tended to flock away from my gayness. Which in turn was good for me and my friends anyway. ~:awesome:>

ExAm
January 15th, 2009, 05:51 PM
I was in a sort of anti-clique in high school. It consisted of the four or so people in the school who didn't really have a clique :v:
There was me, one redneck, one '80s style electrical geek (he didn't even have an internet connection), and one weird jehovah's witness kid. We just kind of got along knowing that we didn't really get along with anyone else

LinkandKvel
January 15th, 2009, 06:49 PM
Link, if I was at your school, I probably wouldn't like you at all.


<3

This statement confuses me. Do you love me or hate me, or do you love hating me?

El Lobo
January 16th, 2009, 12:49 AM
Hey guys, I was popular in high school. :woot:

p0lar_bear
January 16th, 2009, 01:11 AM
Hey guys, I was popular in high school. :woot:

Liar. You were too cool to be in high school.