CMT, SPv2, OpenSauce, and Halo CE 1.08

[SMASH]

EDIT: THIS THREAD IS AN EXCERPT OF ITS PARENT THREAD http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12715

ANY AND ALL FURTHER DISCUSSION WILL TAKE PLACE IN http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15752


Is there a way to use Open Sauce to increase the Max tag space? I mean, computers are much better than when they originally released this so it should still work fine if it was possible.

[Masterz1337]

it doesn't work that way. Plus making OS a requirement alienates 9/10th of the CE population

[jcap]

it doesn't work that way. Plus making OS a requirement alienates 9/10th of the CE population
What the fuck are you saying?

Open Sauce works just fine. It compiles with 1.08 and there shouldn't be a problem. Having to copy a file into your CE directory is no different than having to copy a file and run an app. In fact, it's probably easier because you never have to manually execute anything. Also, I was thinking of including an installer with the release to make everything compatible, so there's nothing to worry there.

[Masterz1337]

OS is used to extend the capabilities of tags and add new script commands. Tagspa e has to do with the hard coded restrictions on the maps. And it's just not the game that would have to take the changes, so would sapien and tool.

Also, if we make spv2 require OS (or anyother add on app), then we alienate anyone not on 1.08, wich is the majority of the playerbase.

[StankBacon]

Also, if we make spv2 require OS (or anyother add on app), then we alienate anyone not on 1.08, wich is the majority of the playerbase.


and why is that a problem?

fuck anyone using an outdated/illegal version.

[Sel]

Also, if we make spv2 require OS (or anyother add on app), then we alienate anyone not on 1.08, wich is the majority of the playerbase.

You have said time, and time again that you are making this for yourselves, not for the general community. Why is that suddenly an issue?

[jcap]

Also, if we make spv2 require OS (or anyother add on app), then we alienate anyone not on 1.08, wich is the majority of the playerbase.
Fuck them. They CHOOSE to not play the updated version. You should absolutely not cater to them. That would be like Microsoft helping people run Halo on Windows 95 because they are stubborn assholes.

All you are doing is further ENCOURAGING them to stay on the outdated versions. If you have something they want to play, they will update their game. You'd also be helping the 1.08 community because they'd now have a larger playerbase.

[Kornman00]

OS is used to extend the capabilities of tags and add new script commands. Tagspa e has to do with the hard coded restrictions on the maps. And it's just not the game that would have to take the changes, so would sapien and tool.

Also, if we make spv2 require OS (or anyother add on app), then we alienate anyone not on 1.08, wich is the majority of the playerbase.
The only issue you have in terms of the HEK is with tool; it bounds checks the resulting cache. It is very possible to do, you would just have to modify tool, haloce and haloceded to allocate more memory (among other things).
The only issue is that the "upgraded" maps would crash non "upgraded" games (who are not running OS).

Actually, if you were to investigate the OS code you would know that it is setup to compile for 1.00 and 1.08.

I think anyone not able to cough up like $10 for a legal HaloPC copy is a waste of space on this earth and I don't see why you would want to support them, but thats just me. You can either use a framework to upgrade the game to allow you to use higher content, or continue to want to spoon feed would-be bottom feeders.

[jcap]

You can either use a framework to upgrade the game to allow you to use higher content, or continue to want to spoon feed would-be bottom feeders.
This. Do this.

[p0lar_bear]

There is no excuse for anyone to be on v1.00 now. Halo CE v1.08 does not check for a CD, so anyone saying that they need the no CD patch is either lying or stupid. Hell, anyone who said they needed the patch with v1.07 was either lying, stupid, or too lazy to look for Daemon Tools and the mini CD image.

If you're going to go the extra mile, pull out the stops and stop catering to the people who are going to bog the whole thing down. You'll lose audience, yes, but v1.08 will gain players. As elitist and douchebaggy as it may sound, why do people who can't be assed to pay for the game deserve to play your mod?

[Masterz1337]

^and another good reason why I'm not going to let this be limited to 1.08.

We're the one's who working on this project, and we want it to be available for all versions. If anyone else on this forum worked on a large project (and actually released it or finished it) they wouldn't want the lose their player base by 90% either. I don't care if it doesn't make the 1.08 population grow, I player is a player for all I care. If someone wants to use vehicle boarding, they can go get 1.08. There's your new player right there. Even though I own the game, I only play 1.08 for the MTV, and the rest of the time I'm on 1.04. It wouldn't surprise me if a large amount of 1.04 players ended up cracking the game to be able to SPV1 back in the day.

[jcap]

You're as much of a fucking asshole as everyone on 1.00/1.04 is.

Fuck them. And you know what? Fuck you too.

[Heathen]

Be nice Jcap.

Masters, I can see where your coming from, but don't pass up a chance to make the mod better so you can accommodate the shit eaters.

Thats like not bettering a town because the hobo's will have to move :/

[Timo]

jcrap raging itt.

I can understand that you want a larger userbase which is great, but wouldn't it be better to try and get everyone together? If people don't migrate to 1.08, release a compatable version for them then?

[Masterz1337]

That's 21 maps and scenarios that have to be worked on then (including UI). Then you have to worry about distributing them, and your going to have 2 separate maps, for 2 separate game versions, with the same name, and there's going to be 10 of those. To top that off, the OS "enhanced" version is going to have to be worked on and released while the 1.04/7 versions are going to be worked on.

[Masterz1337]

When I create content, it's nice to know that people will be playing the mod. I don't want to limit the amount of people who will enjoy my work for people like you who seem to be the people who are complaining. The mod has already been modified to accommodate for the engine's limits so changing that now won't add much.

People on this forum think they make up the majority of CE's playerbase or atleast act like they do. In reality most of the people here rarely play CE and only make up a tiny fraction of the playerbase. We are not going to cater to you.

+rep. If anything you all should be the ones playing 1.04, seeing as it has 8 times the amount of players as 1.04 as I write this since you are in the minority. .04,.07 and .08 are all the same other than the security fixes, and no one is taking advantage of those anymore.

[il Duce Primo]

+rep. If anything you all should be the ones playing 1.04, seeing as it has 8 times the amount of players as 1.04 as I write this since you are in the minority. .04,.07 and .08 are all the same other than the security fixes, and no one is taking advantage of those anymore.
+rep. Relying on this mod to bring more players to the current version and acting like the police in the community by not supporting players who have cracked versions I think is stupid. Plus, there are players who have bought the game who play on earlier versions, and I don't want to force them to change and to go play with less people.

[InnerGoat]

I don't see what the big fuss is over the versions, but wouldn't you want to try for 1000 players in CE one last time?

Anyways, good luck on your release CMT.

[jcap]

+rep. If anything you all should be the ones playing 1.04, seeing as it has 8 times the amount of players as 1.04 as I write this since you are in the minority. .04,.07 and .08 are all the same other than the security fixes, and no one is taking advantage of those anymore.And you should be the one releasing for the newer version so they have a reason to switch. I can't believe you just played that card, saying that the LEGAL population is AT FAULT. What a fucking dick.

Thinking people will not update their game to play this is bullshit. I actually think they have a fairly large legal population, but the reason they stay there is because they are pussies. They have the same thought process as you - that they should just play 1.04 because it has more players as opposed to 1.08 - instead of thinking that by playing 1.08, you'd be increasing the numbers and making any further reason to play on 1.04 a null argument. If people update to 1.08, they won't be playing with less people. They would be playing with the hundreds of people who updated for the mod and actually speak English.

If there's someone who wants to play this, they will update their game. It is just like having to install CE. With your dumbass logic, why don't we just say why not make this for Halo PC instead? SCREW HALO CE! It has 1/3 the population of Halo PC, so they are the minority here! We can get THOUSANDS to play it then and they won't have to install Halo CE!


I'm actually unsure of something here: who are you doing this for?

On one hand, you are catering to the scum of the CE population and taking it up the ass from them. You are sacrificing advanced features and benefits to CE so those who never bought the game can play it. This is utterly pathetic of you. On the other, you are doing this in your own self-interest. You want to see more people play what you have worked on. The bigger the numbers, the happier you are?

So is this an act of selfishness, or selflessness?

You should really make this the best it can possibly be. Pull out all the stops, release a separate easy installer for the mod, and have it install alongside HCE. For me, it's quality over quantity.

[Ki11a_FTW]

jcap has spoken

[Masterz1337]

The thing is, what reason is there to play 1.08 anyway, other than some memory hacks out there?

I can't believe we are having a debate on how SPV2 should be for 1.08 ONLY when the team has ALREADY put extra effort into giving 1.08ers features like HIJACKING.

The majority of the team works on the mod for fun, we're not doing it to save the game, and we're not doing it to save this community. In fact, most of the team (not naming any names) looks down at the community with great disdain, and you guys are now doing exactly what you laughed at people like Recon Devastator for doing, acting like we owed him something or it's our job to help people. Except you all are trying to take advantage of our "fame" to get more players on a version of the game, which frankly you are the majority playing.

[L0d3x]

It is not the responsibility of this mod to get people to switch to newer versions. Besides, you wouldn't want to play with the "scum and pussies of halo ce" now would you?

Now let's get back on topic shall we?

[jcap]

Well, it doesn't have to be 1.08 only. I am basically arguing against the fact that you could even consider putting 1.0 in front of 1.08. If that means sacrificing anything, whether it is ease of use or an actual feature, you should absolutely not for a second even give supporting 1.04 a second thought.


The thing is, what reason is there to play 1.08 anyway, other than some memory hacks out there?

Give it a reason if you can't come up with one.

--------------------
Also, I was referring to the scum as the pirates (who can't play 1.08) and the pussies as the sheep who blow with the wind (who are pretty much like those playing 1.08 now).

[StankBacon]

The thing is, what reason is there to play 1.08 anyway, other than some memory hacks out there?



... is this a serious comment, or are you trolling?

[Reaper Man]

Here's an idea: package the 1.08 update and OS with the zip/rar/whatever package that will contain SPV2. Problem solved (for those who actually own this game legitimately.)

[Choking Victim]

The thing is, what reason is there to play 1.08 anyway, other than some memory hacks out there?
How about the security fixes the patches were made for?

[=sw=warlord]

People on this forum think they make up the majority of CE's playerbase or atleast act like they do. In reality most of the people here rarely play CE and only make up a tiny fraction of the playerbase. We are not going to cater to you.
Where did anyone say that on these forums?

Personaly if i make content i make content i want to see made, what i want to play which is why i made the Dalek mod's sure a fair few downloaded it but i didn't care i finaly got to play what i wanted to play.

English mobster; If they were making the mod for their own enjoyment then surely they would cater to their enjoyment not spoon feed the dregs at the bottom of the coffee cup.

Here's an idea: package the 1.08 update and OS with the zip/rar/whatever package that will contain SPV2. Problem solved (for those who actually own this game legitimately.)

This, entirely This.
If they don't own a 10 buck game then they can gtfo and go back to runescape...

[Hotrod]

SPV2 isn't going to revive the community, and practically nobody is going to rush out and buy the game for it if they havn't already.
It won't make a difference, and really it's none of our business either way.

vOv
Exactly, and that's why CMT isn't going to go and force people to get 1.08 for it, all it means to them is just more people playing the thing. As much as they say that it's for themselves, they do want other people to enjoy it as well.

If they made it 1.08 exclusive, I'ld bet that all the majority of non 1.08 users would go make threads either here or at Halomaps saying "guyz, mai spv2 arent wurking", and then it would all become a huge flamefest. Seeing as how the team is already annoyed by the immaturity and annoyance by a nice chunk of the community (or at least it seems that way), why wouldn't they avoid it?

They're giving us 1.08 user a/some extra feature(s), so I think we should just sit back, and enjoy it all.

[Sel]

Make it for tf2, they have 100X the players that CE does :downs:

Oh and someone haloboom all the 1.04 and 1.0 kids, go.

[Heathen]

Here's an idea: package the 1.08 update and OS with the zip/rar/whatever package that will contain SPV2. Problem solved (for those who actually own this game legitimately.)
Wait...why aren't you doing this?

[Sel]

Wait...why aren't you doing this?

NO WE ALL HAVE GOOD REASONS TO PLAY ON OUTDATED VERSIONS

[Heathen]

NO WE ALL HAVE GOOD REASONS TO PLAY ON OUTDATED VERSIONS

Eh. Any that aren't self created or illegal http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/emot-allears.gif

[Sel]

Eh. Any that aren't self created or illegal :allears:

yeah

we lost our cds and need no cd patchesss!!!~!

[FRain]

they wouldn't want the lose their player base by 90% either.


and we're not doing it to save this community.
Wait, what?

[Masterz1337]

Here's an idea: package the 1.08 update and OS with the zip/rar/whatever package that will contain SPV2. Problem solved (for those who actually own this game legitimately.)

Only good idea in this thread in a while. Will do.


Alright people, this is turning to shit quicker than (insert witty analogy here).

People: THEY ARE DOING THIS FOR THEIR OWN ENJOYMENT.

It is THEIR mod. THEY made it. While they may not own the IP or the content outright once it passes through tool, THEY put their blood, sweat, and tears into this thing. YEARS have been spent on it. While they CAN put more features into it, they choose not to, and no one has any right to say what they can and can't do with the things they made.

Tl;dr: CMT should do what they want with THEIR mod.

This. He deserves +rep.




English mobster; If they were making the mod for their own enjoyment then surely they would cater to their enjoyment not spoon feed the dregs at the bottom of the coffee cup.


We do cater to our own enjoyment. Why do you think we don't really care or listen to what people say for us to do? And I don't know where you guys get the idea we are spoon feeding to 1.04. We're not doing anything for 1.04, while we're giving 1.08 features like boarding. GYFS

[StankBacon]

also, for all you people saying there is no real reason to play on 1.08... what real reason is there to play on 1.04 ?

your shitty argument can go both ways...

the absolute ONLY real reason to stay on an outdated version is because it is pirated.

don't even say oh if they move to 1.08 they will play with less players.... think about what your saying before you say it.

[L0d3x]

Would you guys PLEASE just drop this ridiculous argument?
It does not affect your personal affairs in any way, nor does anyone have the right to assume that spv2 should police the ce community.

Alright, hopefully we can quit wasting all this bandwith now.

[ShadowSpartan]

Would you guys PLEASE just drop this ridiculous argument?
It does not affect your personal affairs in any way, nor does anyone have the right to assume that spv2 should police the ce community.

Alright, hopefully we can quit wasting all this bandwith now.
I would hardly call it ridiculous. If I had the opportunity to bring the majority of the community to a single version of the game, I would do so. We would have more servers to play in, and more people to play against if everyone who wanted to play SPV2 was forced to upgrade to 1.08.

I see no harm coming from forcing people to upgrade. The only people that would be affected in a negative way are the people who use a pirated copy, which you should not be caring about anyway.

[jcap]

Here's an idea: package the 1.08 update and OS with the zip/rar/whatever package that will contain SPV2. Problem solved (for those who actually own this game legitimately.)
Well this is what I was considering in one of my first posts in this debate.

I was saying that we can release an installer to simplify installation. What if we just provide a gigantic installer with options on what maps they'd like to install (all by default) and it installs the update with the game (along with hijacking and all that shit). That would be the main download. Individual map files could be hosted on rapidshit or some other gay-ass filesharing site so they have the option to be a faggot.

Also, when I was trying to encourage the use of OS, I was trying to provide a way to bring CE into 2009. CE has limits, but with OS, they can be expanded. If you were to release an update with your mod, you'd be able to provide foundation the "next generation" of maps. If anyone wanted to add hijacking in a map, they wouldn't have to worry if someone has an updated exe since everyone who played your campaign would have the hijacking framework.


I would hardly call it ridiculous. If I had the opportunity to bring the majority of the community to a single version of the game, I would do so. We would have more servers to play in, and more people to play against if everyone who wanted to play SPV2 was forced to upgrade to 1.08.

I see no harm coming from forcing people to upgrade. The only people that would be affected in a negative way are the people who use a pirated copy, which you should not be caring about anyway.
Yes.

[Rook]

I can't believe there was a debate about versions in this thread.

Latest version duh.

[Sel]

started a flame war

1.08 fo lyfe :smug:

[Reaper Man]

Well this is what I was considering in one of my first posts in this debate.

I was saying that we can release an installer to simplify installation. What if we just provide a gigantic installer with options on what maps they'd like to install (all by default) and it installs the update with the game (along with hijacking and all that shit). That would be the main download. Individual map files could be hosted on rapidshit or some other gay-ass filesharing site so they have the option to be a faggot.
THIS, OR, instead of a massive installer, do it H2CE style (I'm sure some of you remember this) where you download a relatively small program that connects to a server and downloads everything for you - this would be much easier as you could start the process of obtaining the maps much sooner than waiting for a massive file to be downloaded, otherwise the same concept as jcap suggested applies.

[jcap]

THIS, OR, instead of a massive installer, do it H2CE style (I'm sure some of you remember this) where you download a relatively small program that connects to a server and downloads everything for you - this would be much easier as you could start the process of obtaining the maps much sooner than waiting for a massive file to be downloaded, otherwise the same concept as jcap suggested applies.
Yeah, I've been giving this some more thought, and that's what I was beginning to lean more towards. The installer would be like a 1 MB file that would just contain the instructions for installing the mod. The installer could be configured so it would detect if CE is installed, then detect if it is up date, download any files necessary (whether you need HCE, the update, or just the maps), and then put the maps and the UI in the game.

[jcap]

In that case, you'd probably just tell the installer where your base Halo Custom Edition directory is, and it would install there instead of the default.
It would basically do the same thing as the CD key recovery tool.

It could be setup so it searches for a registry key containing the CD key, and as an added bonus it can check against a list of all known illegal CD keys to keep pirates from getting their hands on the Halo campaign (otherwise you're contributing to piracy).

[Kornman00]

If CMT would agree to make this a 1.08 only release, I'll work on an update to OS where it gives the game and the tools more available memory for tag data.

[Advancebo]

If CMT would agree to make this a 1.08 only release, I'll work on an update to OS where it gives the game and the tools more available memory for tag data.

You mean tag space? That would be beneficial to the mod.

[p0lar_bear]

HEY, MASTERZ:

If CMT would agree to make this a 1.08 only release, I'll work on an update to OS where it gives the game and the tools more available memory for tag data.

Just pointing out that Kornman is offering to give you (and hell, the whole community) more cookies if you ditch the 1.0(4)tards.

You would be a colossal retard to pass this offer up, hth. Especially after bitching to everyone and everything about how you're constantly out of tag space and tag slots.

Either limit your mod still to accommodate every player under the sun, or sacrifice some players to crank it up a notch. Your call.

[Masterz1337]

I already responded to his request, it's not a matter of tagspace, it's a matter of tagslots. Tagspace is an annoying error, tagslots is the one that is a show stopper. I don't really bitch about either, except when someone wants to know why we don't do this or that.

Even then, I don't know what I personally want to do. Most of the team doesn't give 2 shits about 1.08 or it's playerbase, and frankly I don't either. The idea of being free of those restrictions (if korn can do it) would be nice, but I am immensely proud of how what we've been able to do all within the games own rules. I don't count boarding as part of this, since it's an option and not a requirement. Even if we do go with OS, we're not going to add anything extra into the mod that isn't there.

Personally, I think the online playing community is fine, it has plenty of players IMO, and it doesn't need any saving.

[jcap]

So...you're a complete moron.

[Masterz1337]

Yeah, pretty much. Even though I didn't say we wouldn't do it.

[jcap]

And if it wasn't the matter of tagspace, then what was with all those times where you shot down and chopped off things from the mod because of tagspace limits?

The Snow Grove and Tensity loading screens?

Masterz1337: we can't exactly do, that alrge spaces
Masterz1337: cause of tagspace limits

Masterz1337: i have to ry to cut all teh amsp down again sometime soon
Masterz1337: once we have brute dialouge
Masterz1337: aot is right now
Masterz1337: .01 free
Masterz1337: and poa is 0.00 free
Masterz1337: :X

M4573R51337: the problem isnt portals with teh size of bsps
M4573R51337: its the effects of tagspace
M4573R51337: which can be very strange

[Masterz1337]

In SP bitmap size doesn't matter, nor sound size.

It's why you get those loading messages and sudden pauses. In MP every texture and sound needs to be in memory, because if not, and the game needed to pause the game to load that data, you'd be frozen in combat in MP, since anything can happen anywhere at anytime.

We have a much better understanding of tagspace than we previously did, such as using low poly coli models (something we havent done with our hogs yet actually I don't think), splitting bsps (which we used in a10 a30, and d40, even though sometimes large bsps have have very odd behavior), using color change, (the ability to have PR, wraith, sentiniel and PP varients), sharing resources (flood bloods to control vehicles, the flentinel idea that got leaked on halomaps, and hunter guns), and using script referances so certain things will only be included in certain maps (something that our boarding uses).

Some requests though, that I can't really name off the top of my head, are things that would take a lot of work to do and may not be things we really want to do. Never the less, the first thing we always look at when talking about adding something is the tagspace/slots. So even if it's something I don't want to include or do and know I should consider anyway, the first thing I look at is the tagslot/tagspace.

Edit: I'm going to make a seperate topic for version numbers, tagspace, and CMT. It'll be best if we leave this as a simple update/minor discussion thread, seeing as the casual person is probably watching this thread for updates and news. If you want to give me section mod powers for tonight I'll help move some of the posts in here in that.