Pardon Our (CMT's) Ignorance.

[jcap]

Since the other thread was locked to try and veer away from another impending argument (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showpost.php?p=397971&postcount=1896), here's a new one.

Two days ago, Masters and his team decided it would be best for the mod to use OpenSauce. He made a few requests, some which others deemed unreasonable, and said that if they could be pulled off, then they would use OS. Last night, Kornman finished the first major part of the mod - the memory limits. This was the first issue that he promised to resolve, and he did it. Unfortunately, Masters responded by telling him to stop because he was reconsidering again not using it because of the same reasons prior to his decision to switch (the ones that were shot down time and time again).

But in addition to his thinking being the same as before, he is claiming that Kornman is unable to increase the vehicle limit to "unlimited" from 80. Kornman encourages them to reuse their vehicles and bipeds, and says they should not even have to request an increase in that. Additionally, if they want to increase it desperately, then zTeam has allowed CMT to use their 320 limit increase. Unfortunately, when you bump up the limit, the game becomes more unstable, so he doesn't want to use theirs (like Kornman's increase would be different).

So now, with us back at square one again, and me being "such a whiney bitch," it's back to the decision table again.


----------------------

Update with Masters being a faggot here: http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?p=404434#post404434

[Rook]

What the fuck :eyesroll:

[Choking Victim]

I don't see the point in halting the project, what's changed from two days ago when they accepted the offer?

[CtrlAltDestroy]

The limits placed on the editing kit (ie: the 80 vehicle placement limit) are strictly on the editing kit, not halo itself (with the exception of a few). Halo doesnt check that you're not going over these preset limits, as it doesn't even contain the tag definitions. Given, theres going to be problems with memory and whatnot when you have an extreme increase over the limit, but an increase to a 320 limit for vehicles in a scenario is hardly anything to worry about.

[Arteen]

Seriously, what's your problem? It's not your mod. Please stay out of our affairs. This has nothing to do with you.

[DrunkenSamus]

Why do you continue with this abomination?

[Limited]

I see it as kornman is going out of his way to update OS. If CMT still bitchs and moans about problems then kornman should just pull out.

Why should CMT call the shots and pressurize kornman?

[jcap]

Well CMT doesn't really seem to mind cutting everything out of their mod, so it's almost like Kornman is doing them more of a favor by encouraging them to keep it.

And I've been asked the question of why I have to get involved with your affairs enough. My answer isn't changing. It's because you can't think straight and use what is at your disposal to not have to cut things out. You might say you found a way to make more space, but at WHAT expense? Cutting out something of any value isn't a solution to a problem. Using OpenSauce to remove limits is.

[il Duce Primo]

I see it as kornman is going out of his way to update OS. If CMT still bitchs and moans about problems then kornman should just pull out.

Why should CMT call the shots and pressurize kornman?
I have yet to see us bitch about it. The only person is Jcap and he doesn't have anything to do with CMT. At this point he's just another fanboy.

[TeeKup]

Why is there so much drama around this. I just want to play Halo, a really nice candy coated Halo. :(

[jcap]

You really think I'm the only one who thinks you're full of shit?

[Limited]

I have yet to see us bitch about it. The only person is Jcap and he doesn't have anything to do with CMT. At this point he's just another fanboy.
Masters was yesterday in his thread...

[Choking Victim]

I have yet to see us bitch about it. The only person is Jcap and he doesn't have anything to do with CMT. At this point he's just another fanboy.
To turn down an offer like this would be completely foolish. Korn offered to bypass the memory restrictions, he even threw in an offer to research multiple sounds.map/bitmaps.map resources, which would significantly cut down on your map file sizes and download time. I stand by jcap, and anyone that doesn't see cmt's decision as a stupid one needs to rethink the entire situation. The benefits of the offer severely outweigh the down sides, I don't even understand why cmt needs to think before accepting.

[supersniper]

Why is there so much drama around this. I just want to play Halo, a really nice candy coated Halo. :( supersniper likes this

Iagree with Jcap on this, why cut out hard work when you can just leave it, use the amazing work done by Korn and have even more in the mod.

[sdavis117]

Masterz (and some others in CMT) don't trust themselves to not put a ton of crap in once the limits are removed.

I personally believe that if they set out a list of things they would add without limits while Korn was working on removing the limits, then, as a group, decided what out of that list to add and not add, then stick soley to that list, I see no reason why limitless tools could be a bad thing for this mod.

[Choking Victim]

Masterz (and some others in CMT) don't trust themselves to not put a ton of crap in once the limits are removed.

I personally believe that if they set out a list of things they would add without limits while Korn was working on removing the limits, then, as a group, decided what out of that list to add and not add, then stick soley to that list, I see no reason why limitless tools could be a bad thing for this mod.
That's the thing, they would still have limits, they would just be larger than before. Even if they had the urge to keep adding more content, they would eventually hit the limit again. So it's a poor excuse to say they don't trust themselves to put a ton of shit in.

[L0d3x]

I can't believe you guys. Complaining over limits of a mod.
There are hungry black children in africa that don't have enough food, and you don't see them bitching (as much) about it.

For shame, all of you!

[sdavis117]

I can't believe you guys. Complaining over limits of a mod.
There are hungry black children in africa that don't have enough food, and you don't see them bitching (as much) about it.

For shame, all of you!

They're too hungry to bitch about it.

/Insensitive

[=sw=warlord]

Seriously, what's your problem? It's not your mod. Please stay out of our affairs. This has nothing to do with you.
Because just as kornman holds his end of the bargain your so called leader decides to change his mind pretty much wasting kornmans time.
He's doing you lot a favour by taking time out of his life to help you lot.
He could quite easily be doing something much more worthwhile like personal lifestyle or going back to his H2Radio tool....

[il Duce Primo]

Masters was yesterday in his thread...
There isn't a post in that thread from yesterday. Stop making shit up to make us look like bad guys.

[=sw=warlord]

There isn't a post in that thread from yesterday. Stop making shit up to make us look like bad guys.
Why would he do that? You do that well enough by yourselves.

[blind]

Are you guys seriously still modding this game :embarrassed:

[SnaFuBAR]

Terrible decisions. You've been bitching and crying about restrictions for years. You have the ability to stop wincing and removing bit after bit, but you lot are just too prideful to accept a good thing, even though you know YOU are wrong by not doing it.

Masters you were all over me about acting different and making better decisions and helping the community, and supposedly, you had decided to do that too.

How's that working out for you? It seems like you're not helping the community, you're only serving yourself and struggling.

[Hunter]

I think Jcap wants this so bad so he can blow halo up in style :P

I am in the middle of this argument tbh, I see why Masterz wants the whole community able to play this mod on all versions of the game, and I see jcaps side by why CMT are being silly and not taking an offer of adding awesone content.

Personally I would love Masterz to take the offer up... :S

[blind]

It looks like they are arguing over lying about modding a game, blind!
A five year old game!!!
teh

[paladin]

Seriously, what's your problem? It's not your mod. Please stay out of our affairs. This has nothing to do with you.

.

[jcap]

That's already been answered a couple of times in the last few pages, and even below that on the first page.

[L0d3x]

Terrible decisions. You've been bitching and crying about restrictions for years. You have the ability to stop wincing and removing bit after bit, but you lot are just too prideful to accept a good thing, even though you know YOU are wrong by not doing it.



You overaged fanboy you. Not accepting, no, halting the offer development has no dire consequences for any of our plans. As has been said, a solution to the memory limit problem has been found, and required no need for OS.

[ShadowSpartan]

You overaged fanboy you. Not accepting, no, halting the offer development has no dire consequences for any of our plans. As has been said, a solution to the memory limit problem has been found, and required no need for OS.
I would love to know what this "solution" is. Cutting even more content from your maps to barely get the maps to compile?

[L0d3x]

The solution gives us plenty of breathing space, that is all you should be concerned about.

PS: no need to block me on AIM over this shit

[Choking Victim]

The solution gives us plenty of breathing space, that is all you should be concerned about.

PS: no need to block me on AIM over this shit
Does it give you free bandwidth and smaller map sizes too?

Didn't think so.

[Hunter]

The following posts are going to be like scooby doo trying to figure out this new solution :P

Continue:

[paladin]

Brent would never post here.

[ShadowSpartan]

The solution gives us plenty of breathing space, that is all you should be concerned about.

PS: no need to block me on AIM over this shit
I find it funny that you guys are so reluctant to tell about your "solution", but I bet that is because its not even a true solution, just you cutting out content.

Another aspect nobody is talking about is the size of the maps. The map sizes are not small, they are around 400mb each, maybe more. Kornman has stated he is going to work on allowing new shared maps (bitmaps.map and sounds.map) to be used for the campaign mod. This will dramatically decrease all of the map sizes, thus shortening download time and cutting down on the amount of bandwidth. Who here can say that this would not be helpful? Nobody.

[L0d3x]

Does it give you free bandwidth and smaller map sizes too?

Didn't think so.

Don't make me insult your mother :D

[jcap]

I find it funny that you guys are so reluctant to tell about your "solution", but I bet that is because its not even a true solution, just you cutting out content.

Another aspect nobody is talking about is the size of the maps. The map sizes are not small, they are around 400mb each, maybe more. Kornman has stated he is going to work on allowing new shared maps (bitmaps.map and sounds.map) to be used for the campaign mod. This will dramatically decrease all of the map sizes, thus shortening download time and cutting down on the amount of bandwidth. Who here can say that this would not be helpful? Nobody.
This is exactly what I'm thinking. This entire issue is about how cutting content is NOT a solution to restrictions - OpenSauce is. I'm speculating that you're holding back your "solution" because you'd be making examples of our argument.

[Kornman00]

While some of the limits placed on tag blocks and tag data don't have much meaning (other than maybe exceeding the maximum value of what indexes it, say a 16 bit integer), there IS a meaning for the limits applied to object placement blocks. The game only allocates a fixed set of memory for all game objects. Every object consumes this memory when instanced. This includes projectiles, placeholders and garbage (ie flood).

Now, imagine an intense scene with 1 player, then a good sized marine squad of say 9. Now, the player is driving a tank, who has 2 marines with him, with 2 more in a warthog then 4 more in another tank.

The enemy includes 2 shades with 2 grunts manning them, 2 banshees with 2 elites, 2 wraiths with 2 elites again, then maybe 3 sets of 1 elite and 4 grunts. Then you have maybe 5 jackels running around.

Now, we're going to assume that every biped in this scene has 1 weapon and 2 of each grenade type. Except for the player, he has 2 weapons and 4 of each grenade type. Then you have to include the "weapons" which are attached to the vehicles (ie the shade's plasma cannon)

Then we're going to assume there are 15 different equipment pickups nested in the scene (heath, rocket ammo, active cammo, etc). The maybe 5 more weapons just scattered and not being used by anyone.

While the grenades don't add to the object memory until actually thrown (just like projectiles from a weapon IIRC), they are still going to be counted when actual battle commences so they're a huge factor (especially if it was Halo 2 and we had Catch on ;p)

We end up totalling in about 15 equipment, 55 weapon, 36 biped, and 9 vehicle objects. 115 base objects. Now lets assume on average that each biped is shooting off 10 active projectiles (grunts with needlers would probably raise this average dramatically). Thats 475 objects total thus far for this battle scene, not considering any grenades or the actual scenery.

This scene takes up about 20% of the object memory. Now, you have to factor in what the scenario has placed. This includes (sound) scenery, devices, etc. In CMT's detailed case, you've probably got the rest of your 80% of the level right there. 80 vehicles BY THEMSELVES (no other spawned objects, not even a player) take up about 7% of the memory. CMT's highest vehicle count I think masters said was 115. That alone is bumped up to 9%.

These limits aren't meant to be trifled with unless you know what you're doing.

http://squishy.hamletsasissy.com/albums/album18/dogbert.gif

[Rhydgaled]

[21:30] jrcap14: Kornman just finished the memory upgrade to OS
[21:30] jrcap14: and created a campaign expansion system
Campaign Expansion System? what's that?

Also is this a CMT exclusive upgrade to Open Sauce or will it be released publicly when it is completed?

[ShadowSpartan]

Campaign Expansion System? what's that?

Also is this a CMT exclusive upgrade to Open Sauce or will it be released publicly when it is completed?
I see no reason why the upgraded source code would not be released to the public.

[=sw=warlord]

Well if anything, this whole charade has certainly made the CE section more active.
Trust CMT to bring the drama back home. :lol:
Il probably be -reped for my honesty but really, only thoses are full of themselves and hypocritical will do that, amirite palidin?

[Arteen]

Two days ago, Masters and his team decided it would be best for the mod to use OpenSauce. He made a few requests, some which others deemed unreasonable, and said that if they could be pulled off, then they would use OS.

Last night, Kornman finished the first major part of the mod - the memory limits... Unfortunately, Masters responded by telling him to stop...
Some requests can't be pulled off, so we won't necessarily use OS. Simple.


Unfortunately, when you bump up the limit, the game becomes more unstable
Seems like a reasonable concern.


I see it as kornman is going out of his way to update OS. If CMT still bitchs and moans about problems then kornman should just pull out.

Why should CMT call the shots and pressurize kornman?
We're calling the shots? From my perspective, we were forced into using OS because Kornman refused to update OS otherwise. Kornman is not obligated to update OS and we're not obligated to use it. Don't blame us if Kornman doesn't update OS.


Well CMT doesn't really seem to mind cutting everything out of their mod, so it's almost like Kornman is doing them more of a favor by encouraging them to keep it.
That's hyperbole. We certainly still have a lot of content in our mod.


It's because you can't think straight and use what is at your disposal to not have to cut things out. You might say you found a way to make more space, but at WHAT expense? Cutting out something of any value isn't a solution to a problem. Using OpenSauce to remove limits is.
First, it's still not your problem. Please stay out of it. Second,...


The benefits of the offer severely outweigh the down sides, I don't even understand why cmt needs to think before accepting.
I disagree.


supersniper likes this

Iagree with Jcap on this, why cut out hard work when you can just leave it, use the amazing work done by Korn and have even more in the mod.
We want to finish the mod, not add content just because we can.



He's doing you lot a favour by taking time out of his life to help you lot.
He could quite easily be doing something much more worthwhile like personal lifestyle or going back to his H2Radio tool....
Personally, I wanted to hold off on committing to a decision until we were ready, but the rest of the team felt pressured to make the decision too soon. If we wasted Kornman's time, then sorry.



Terrible decisions. You've been bitching and crying about restrictions for years. You have the ability to stop wincing and removing bit after bit, but you lot are just too prideful to accept a good thing, even though you know YOU are wrong by not doing it.
What? What does pride have to do with anytihng? How are we flat-out wrong for not doing it?


Personally I would love Masterz to take the offer up... :S
If we take the offer, then people are going to expect us to make more and more.


This is exactly what I'm thinking. This entire issue is about how cutting content is NOT a solution to restrictions - OpenSauce is. I'm speculating that you're holding back your "solution" because you'd be making examples of our argument.
We're getting rid off stuff I didn't even realize was there, and doesn't affect anything. Nothing to write home about.

[Bodzilla]

what are you guys doing

FFFFFFF

i thought this was all organized >:(

[SnaFuBAR]

expecting you to make more and more? i think not. by taking cutscenes out, you're taking out the story, and that's a big thing halo is about. etc etc, i won't reiterate more about everything that everyone already knows, including yourselves.

http://www.modacity.net/forums/showpost.php?p=396984&postcount=69

[I_Am_Error117]

wow....havent been here in like a year and after this probably won't be back.


I just read through all of these threads. It looks like the version debate is over. Wow using the newest version is obviously the right choice...I mean why would you choose an empty cup when you could have a cup full of water. Why should you let the people that are too stupid to upgrade enjoy something that the community is supposed to enjoy. The people that pirate and don't upgrade hurt the community.

On object limits and OS: If Kornman can increase the space for stuff, why cut it? If the offer is accepted the mod can be bigger in terms of content you can use. You may not be able to get all this content at once, but still. If the offer is taken than CMT can live up to their original goal of introducing the player to lots of content. Now, that doesn't mean they have to rush out and make more and more stuff, rather it allows them to include the stuff they have collected over the years.


And Im out. :cool:

[ShadowSpartan]

So why didn't you reply to my post (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showpost.php?p=398099&postcount=35) Arteen? Don't have a reasonable argument against it? Even if you don't feel you need the memory upgrades, why not use OS to decrease the map sizes by putting content in a shared map?

[Choking Victim]

I disagree.
Why? You've given us almost no logical reason why you're declining the offer, but we've given several reasons why you should. Here's a list so you can see how beneficial it is:

Benefits:
1. Lower map file sizes and faster download speeds (if korn pulls through with this aspect of the upgrade).
2. Memory increases.
3. Tag slot increases.
4. The community gets the benefit of using and learning from this upgrade to open sauce.
5. Multiple shared (bitmaps.map/sounds.map) resource cache files. (again if korn pulls through)
6. Possible other goodies judging from korn's post "There may be another trick up the sleave you may enjoy".

Down-sides:
1. You think you'll keep adding content to the maps with zero restrictions (even though there's still a limit).
2. You'll be limited to version 1.08 users.

Feel free to add to the down-sides list, as you were mostly unclear as to what exactly would be the bad thing about using open sauce.

[Sel]

oh for the love of....

[Arteen]

expecting you to make more and more? i think not. by taking cutscenes out, you're taking out the story, and that's a big thing halo is about. etc etc, i won't reiterate more about everything that everyone already knows, including yourselves.
We took out the hangar cutscene and the Legendary cutscene. Good riddance to the former, and the latter is trivial. That's not much of an issue.

We're going to have another chat about OS later, but in the meantime, it's our decision, not anyone else's, so I'd appreciate it if people would stop dictating to our group what to do (jcap, particularly). Using OS is not the right decision and not using OS is not the wrong decision.

[jcap]

Limiting yourself by not using OS is the wrong decision.

And why have you all avoided answering the question presented earlier: what is the "solution"?

[FRain]

Im gonna put in my two cents before I got to go finish vaccuming, I had to write this up quick.

Masterz, and anyone else involved in this.

For several years now, you've been complaining "UGH THIS IS SO HARD I CANT INCREASE THE LIMIT OH SHIT TAG SPACE ERRORS" but. when the opportunity to fix that comes, you become completely fucking ignorant and think about your player base rather than the quality of your mod. We already went over this, if we were to have an installer to fix the issue. We thought we solved this issue and got all the way up to Step 4 and then you decided to change your mind because of a POSSIBLE issue and now we're back here at Step 0 with you arguing your same ignorant little argument of "playerbase" and "possible instability" before you even fucking tried.

I don't have time to read the whole thread so if this has been stated before, sorry, I'm in kind of a rush. Same with the spelling and shit I just dont have the time.

E: Also, I'd like to remind you people that during a live broadcast I asked to see the spike rifle. I saw the animations and said I didn't like them and said "I think they're crappy" Masterz pulled a Halo2hCE (my old account when I was 10) and replied with something along the lines of: "Rain, you're a fucking scrub, shut up because if we thought it was bad then we'd replace it, there's no need for you to say anything so shut up" If arguing a set of animations made him do this, now I think there's no point in arguing over Open Sauce.

EE: holy shit I got +67 rep for this post :|

[Hunter]

If we take the offer, then people are going to expect us to make more and more.


No, I think you could make the current conent better because you could use boarding ect... Not add more content, there isnt really much more content to add, you have it all Lol.

It justs gives you a open mind with the current content :D And allows more weapons to be added into a level lyk a nuke launcherzz :P

And posts in this thread arnt telling you to do this, they are reasoning with you and explaining what advantages there are. Your decision at the end of the day, but think logical, and think hard about every post. :D

[SnaFuBAR]

Funny, the 1.04 players and the 1.0 pirates were chastised up until now, when it's convenient :rolleyes:

[Sel]

Im gonna put in my two cents before I got to go finish vaccuming, I had to write this up quick.

Masterz, and anyone else involved in this.

For several years now, you've been complaining "UGH THIS IS SO HARD I CANT INCREASE THE LIMIT OH SHIT TAG SPACE ERRORS" but. when the opportunity to fix that comes, you become completely fucking ignorant and think about your player base rather than the quality of your mod. We already went over this, if we were to have an installer to fix the issue. We thought we solved this issue and got all the way up to Step 4 and then you decided to change your mind because of a POSSIBLE issue and now we're back here at Step 0 with you arguing your same ignorant little argument of "playerbase" and "possible instability" before you even fucking tried.

I don't have time to read the whole thread so if this has been stated before, sorry, I'm in kind of a rush. Same with the spelling and shit I just dont have the time.

That's the first thought out, and intelligent thing I have ever seen come out of you.

There is no good reason to not use OS, and cutting a lot of the stuff you cut is taking away from the quality of what of the campaign itself. Just, fucking, use, it.

[teh lag]

I have a lot to say about this, but I frankly don't care much anymore. Either in public or private I think I've addressed almost every point that's been brought up by the people to whom this is most relevant, and I don't care to do so again because people can't realize that once a point has been rendered null you don't go back to arguing it.

The one thing I'll say now is that I'm tired of our members who are going "don't tell us how to run our team."

We don't have to maintain this great principle of "we never listen to anyone :mad: so dont tell us what to do :mad: :mad: :mad:". We're just being stubborn and hyperdogmatic if we reject using OS for that reason. Some suggestions are petty, unreasonable, nitpicky, fanboyish, or otherwise worthy of being ignored, but this one has serious merit and is worth considering with the rest of the community as a party to our decision - after all, they're going to be effected by it more than the average suggestion of "make the wraith less shiny" or "add in a flood plasma rifle."

[Hunter]

To my understanding now, a lot of people want this OS update because they want sexy Halo for all maps. And because they want CMTv2 to be at its best. So we can all finish Halo in style with a beer on the beach, on earth, and watch fireworks of Halo blowing up.

So if CMT decide not to use it, fair enough, but that means we all lose out because we dont have an OS update. Ignorance pardoned :P

@Kornman:
Will you defo not make this update for the general community if CMT dont use it? Or would you spare a bit of time for the commmunity and make it?

[FRain]

My opinion still stands: See what you can do. I would go with the installer that would update everyone to 1.08 and extract the CMT maps, along with Sauce. See if those possible problems are really a big problem and if they are then find a way to work around it. Don't just start freaking out because there is a possible stability issue. Find what happens WITH the stability issue. Find some way to fix that. Keep pushing until everything seems to go well.

E: I also don't see why you want to appeal to 1.00 or 1.04, or ever 1.07 players.

[SnaFuBAR]

Since the only "real" downside to OS presented so far is "version compatability" (which can be taken care of easily anyways), wouldn't they be able to go back and forth with the version changer anyways?

Don't say anything about 1.0 players, they're pirates. The only reason you would support them (even after ostracizing them for years) would be to add a flimsy and selfish support point for your argument.


Oh, I forget, there's the conjectured "stability issue" which still holds no merit because you haven't even gotten that far.

[Mr Buckshot]

Just accept Kornman00's offer and make it for 1.08 to take advantage of the new limits. If people want to play it badly enough, they'll have no choice but to update to 1.08. No real loss from what I see. Don't cater to all the loyal-to-1.07-and-below people. If they are pirates who can't get a legal copy and update, then they just deserve to miss out on quality content here.

[Hunter]

Pirates should pay for quality. If they dont, there loss.

"Good things dont come free"

[ramis92]

Since the only "real" downside to OS presented so far is "version compatability" (which can be taken care of easily anyways), wouldn't they be able to go back and forth with the version changer anyways?

Don't say anything about 1.0 players, they're pirates. The only reason you would support them (even after ostracizing them for years) would be to add a flimsy and selfish support point for your argument.


Oh, I forget, there's the conjectured "stability issue" which still holds no merit because you haven't even gotten that far.

Can it actually be compatible with different versions? If so, a couple of problems here can be removed.

[FRain]

Here's my post with a little more back-research:

There is a supposed possible stability error if you use the vehicle limit increase and open sauce, so you're disqualifying it even though you haven't been there yet and have no fucking idea what the problem is, or what it does.

You want to cater to people with 1.00, 1.04, and 1.07. Why? So you can have more people play? That seems like a ridiculous argument to me. I thought we already had a solution to the problem which was to package an installer that would increase the vehicle limit, install open sauce, and upgrade to 1.08? What is there to argue? A possible issue that isn't even a problem yet and you don't even know what it is, or what it does.

Also: I see people throwing around the term "fanboy" ALOT in this thread. What gives?

[Arteen]

And why have you all avoided answering the question presented earlier: what is the "solution"?
Because the specifics are irrelevant? Why are you so suspicious?

We're cutting two color channels out of every bitmap so that the entire mod is in shades of green.


The one thing I'll say now is that I'm tired of our members who are going "don't tell us how to run our team."

We don't have to maintain this great principle of "we never listen to anyone :mad: so dont tell us what to do :mad: :mad: :mad:". We're just being stubborn and hyperdogmatic if we reject using OS for that reason. Some suggestions are petty, unreasonable, nitpicky, fanboyish, or otherwise worthy of being ignored, but this one has serious merit and is worth considering with the rest of the community as a party to our decision - after all, they're going to be effected by it more than the average suggestion of "make the wraith less shiny" or "add in a flood plasma rifle."
I never said anything about rejecting OS because of people telling us how to run our team. I'm annoyed that people, especially jcap who made this flame thread, are making this such a personal, right-or-wrong issue, telling us what to do instead of suggesting what to do, and that we've been pushed into using OS before we know we need it, because Kornman won't update OS if we don't use it. I might have gotten carried away in my arguing, and I apologize for that, but please stop making demands of us and insulting us if we don't conform to what you want.

I've always liked getting feedback and suggestions (even though Masters prefers the "we don't care what you think" approach), and I do agree that there have been many good arguments for OS in this thread. I'm also glad that most people in the thread have presented their opinions without being insulting or overbearing. Personally, I am totally fine with using OS. I don't think we really need it, but it'd be nice to have at our disposal, and we can do some cool stuff with it.

Also, we totally need a flood plasma rifle.

lol @ one of my posts. I forgot to finish one of those sentences. :embarrassed:

[Hunter]

We're cutting two color channels out of every bitmap so that the entire mod is in shades of green.

Sounds like a plan. Halo-forestmod :p

[TVTyrant]

This whole thing is ridiculous. Its not a right-or-wrong, good vs. evil issue. Its a "We as a community think this is the best solution" thing. We're not fervently angry or anything, but in the end, I cant think of a better solution than using the OS. Especially when compared to lowering the color scale so you can fit in all of the content. I don't understand why you guys are so repulsed by the idea.

However, a question that is yet to be asked is this: Do you guys not want to use OS because you've already finished removing the two color bands? That would make alot of sense, as I'd be pretty fucking pissed if everyone was trying to tell me to go back and do something AGAIN when I'd already solved an issue.

[Maniac]

You cant think thats for real.

[FRain]

Tyrant, l2sarcasm.

[ShadowSpartan]

Sounds like a plan. Halo-forestmod :p
Yea, too bad that wouldn't decrease the size the bitmap takes up in memory. Each channel has a value in the bitmap raw.


Because the specifics are irrelevant? Why are you so suspicious?
Seriously though, why is it irrelevant? It is a perfectly acceptable question.


This whole thing is ridiculous. Its not a right-or-wrong, good vs. evil issue. Its a "We as a community think this is the best solution" thing. We're not fervently angry or anything, but in the end, I cant think of a better solution than using the OS. Especially when compared to lowering the color scale so you can fit in all of the content. I don't understand why you guys are so repulsed by the idea.

However, a question that is yet to be asked is this: Do you guys not want to use OS because you've already finished removing the two color bands? That would make alot of sense, as I'd be pretty fucking pissed if everyone was trying to tell me to go back and do something AGAIN when I'd already solved an issue.
Wow, please tell me this post was a joke.

[Hunter]

You really think they would do that? :lmao:

[blind]

You guys take all of this so seriously its lols.

[Hunter]

http://www.freshbytes.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/internet-serious-business-cat.jpg

Im off bed, nighty night.

[Masterz1337]

Is that the "y so srs" cat without the "makeup"?

[CodeBrain]

yo dawg, i heard you like flame wars

so we made a flame thread about cmt, so you can flame while you flame the entire way away

But in all seriousness, it really depends on who wants it and who doesnt.

I can look at both sides and see what points they are trying to make.

Masterz's side doesnt want to use OS because of the mod almost being in it's final stage, and adding OS would drag the release date of the campaign to a far later date.

Jcap's side wants CMT to use it for the benefits of OS (tag limit, space, vehicles, etc) and believes it's foolish for CMT to NOT to take the offer.

I would say my opinion but I believe that it wouldnt make a good point.

[Jean-Luc]

I've always liked getting feedback and suggestions (even though Masters prefers the "we don't care what you think" approach)

Which is a piss-poor mentality and won't do him, or the team any good.

Talking directly to Masterz here. If you EVER want to succeed in this industry, you HAVE to listen to your community. Yes, there will be some sacrifices, but you do have the option to keep stuff you can't stand losing. When it comes down to it, the game is about the fans. Games like the Unreal Tournament series, or Gears of War, or pretty much any quality game got to where they were by listening to fan feedback, implementing changes even if it hurt them, and overall delivering a more polished experience for the fans.

Now, since I keep saying "This is for the fans," I do have to limit this, by saying that catering to the pirates of the game is also a piss-poor idea, and only casts you in a selfish light. If you're honestly measuring your mod's worth by the amount of downloads it gets, rather than the actual quality of the mod, then I think you're going the wrong way.

An example of "quality vs quantity" is a game called Beyond Good & Evil. It was a miserably underappreciated game. You rarely hear talk of it, but when it comes to the game itself, it is one of the highest caliber experiences I have ever had. Because of the amount of polish in the game, and the engrossing gameplay, I became a fan for life. Now, what you're doing is taking measly people who aren't even devoted enough fans of Halo to shell out the $10 to buy the fucking thing, you're sacrificing polish and quality for THEM.

[blind]

Is that the "y so srs" cat without the "makeup"?
It is!!!!!
Masterz i think you should do what you want with this mod you are teh masterz1337 of teh halo community!!1! :cool::cool::cool:

[Hunter]

Is that the "y so srs" cat without the "makeup"?

Dunno, did a random google image search of "internet serious"
:party:

[CN3089]

what the fuck is this thread http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/gf-cripesduck.gif

[Arteen]

Yea, too bad that wouldn't decrease the size the bitmap takes up in memory. Each channel has a value in the bitmap raw.
Hopefully OS can fix that.

Wait...


Seriously though, why is it irrelevant? It is a perfectly acceptable question.
We didn't cut anything that affects gameplay, so it's irrelevant. It's just some UI stuff that took up a lot of space.

[sdavis117]

I know this question is better suited for the main CMT thread, but since you are discussing UI's, and for some reason that created a chain reaction that is making me ask this question, and since I hate unanswered question, I must ask it here.

Will it actually tell me which key to press to "Keep it as it is" or "try it the other way" when I am calibrating my "Looking Stick", or will I just have to guess again (like in SPv1)?

/derailment

Edit: Fuck yes, no tits tuts.

[SnaFuBAR]

wouldn't they be able to go back and forth with the version changer anyways?.
.

[jcap]

Because the specifics are irrelevant? Why are you so suspicious?
Because I think that if you told us, you'd be making huge fools of yourselves.

So, that's why I am going to guess you removed the Delta UI Timo and I made. No big deal for us, really. Masters is just butthurt over this and he just thinks that he can damn-well really show us by taking it out because of my lack of support for your moronic actions.

I don't care; you're only helping me actually. Now you've only proved our case, because of your foolish action. You're sacrificing quality again just like you have been doing all along because you are out of space.

You can't forget here that Masters was the one who approached me with intentions of using it.

Masterz1337: it alright if we get all the delta halo ui tags? for ui maps as well as the sp/mp ones? He is the one who requested to have it for the mod to make it better, but that seems to be the very least of your intentions now. Do you even pay attention to your own actions? If you did, you would clearly see that you just pulled something I've been on your backs about since the beginning of this thread. You are are all a joke.

At least now I don't need to worry about finishing the new UI before your release.



So still, what about the filesize? Why can't you go with a shared cache file to cut it down by half. I know you've been waiting on me to say this, so I'm not going to provide hosting if you don't make any effort to reduce the overall size of the mod when you can cut it down by 50% at least.

And if you laugh at that, thinking that is the worst I can do, then you need to think about the scenario. How will people download? This was a concern addressed in Pardon Our Dust, so what is your answer to it? HaloMaps? Well I hope you have fun providing one single download source for a couple hundred people of a 2 GB file. Dennis will greatly appreciate it. Too bad Halomaps also only lets one download at a time, and at speeds of maybe less than 90 kb/s while hundreds are downloading. Too bad not many sites support huge-ass downloads, or cap off bandwidth limits like 250 MB per hour, and then make you wait another 2 hours to download again.

Meanwhile, we have around 7 servers with essentially no caps that can provide mirrors and reliable downloads. We even pushed through 500 GB in half a day on one server. Looks like that won't be necessary, though.

It's funny... your intention is to aim for a larger audience so more can play, but what will they play if they can't get it? :v:

[Kornman00]

The main reason I came up with an idea to update OS a bit was because of CMT's posts regarding the memory issues. I believe in moving forward, and the whole version spread, to me, is quite ridiculous. IMO, if you haven't upgraded to 1.08 its because you're still using 1.07 for Battery or because you're a pirate. Arrrrr, shiver me code. I saw it as a chance to possibly bring more people to the same page and have more users browsing the 1.08 server list. It would have been a mutual relationship, not a parasitic. They get to bring back what they originally cut out, I (or we, for those that care) get to see more users come to 1.08, plus future mod teams don't have to worry so much with constraints, they can work in a more next-gen environment (in terms of memory of course).

When I first posted about upgrading OS I was only aware of the tag memory, tag instance and cache size constants issues. Script data and unit limits came later when Master's read off his "ransom list" for OS and SPv2. If I'm going to expand the engine's powers, I'm going to do so in a way that doesn't break compatibility with official game data nor cause instability during play (not on purpose anyway).

I felt this mod's need for assistance was a proper reason for me to dust off OS a bit and get OS a little publicity. Before there really wasn't much motivation or reason to continue with doing anything OS related as there was no hook, line and sinker effect. Nor was there any real need for it's capabilities, which is up to the end user to exploit and implement from.
Thats right: its up to you if you want any shader bullshit upgrades. Engineering just doesn't magically happen from setting some magical value to some magical constant\expression. I didn't figure out how to do MTV by compiling code which read "make halo1 be more like halo2". Go star on MTV if you want your money for nothing and checks for free.


So to answer the question if I'll still release the update to OS even if Masters retracts the request for OS: eventually I'm sure. However if my main motivator falls out I have to rebalance my priorities again and OS really just doesn't factor in with what I've been working on these past 5\6 months, which has its own milestones and deadline.

[blind]

You are are all a joke.

;););););););););)

[Arteen]

I don't care; you're only helping me actually. Now you've only proved our case, because of your foolish action. You're sacrificing quality again just like you have been doing all along because you are out of space.

I honestly never even noticed that we were using a special UI, so for me it's a matter of removing bloat, not quality, no offense.


Will it actually tell me which key to press to "Keep it as it is" or "try it the other way" when I am calibrating my "Looking Stick", or will I just have to guess again (like in SPv1)?

/derailment

Edit: Fuck yes, no tits tuts.
All the string issues from Spv1 are fixed, so that issue won't arise in any form.


So still, what about the filesize? Why can't you go with a shared cache file to cut it down by half. I know you've been waiting on me to say this, so I'm not going to provide hosting if you don't make any effort to reduce the overall size of the mod when you can cut it down by 50% at least.
How do shared caches work, anyway? Would we be able to provide our own cache maps, or would we need to overwrite bitmaps.map and such?


You are are all a joke.
Why do you have to make it so personal? :(



When I first posted about upgrading OS I was only aware of the tag memory, tag instance and cache size constants issues. Script data and unit limits came later when Master's read off his "ransom list" for OS and SPv2. If I'm going to expand the engine's powers, I'm going to do so in a way that doesn't break compatibility with official game data nor cause instability during play (not on purpose anyway).
I apologize if the list came off seeming like a ransom note. If you're willing and able to do some of those extra things, then great, if not, then the original deal is fine. Please don't feel pressured to do those extra requests.

[Limited]

You know what pisses me off the most CMT guys? The way you are fucking kornman over. Your messing him around saying "yeah we will use it" then suddenly changing your mind.

Like kornman said updating it isnt an easy task, he has spent along time researching it your basically spitting in his face when you play him around.

Your willing to fuck him over, yet I bet at least one CMT member is using his updated HEK.

[Stormwing]

just..use the new OS. or something. whatever. just get this thing out at some point and have it as totally absolutely awesome as possible, i dont care how you do it. everyone else needs to stop bitching and picking sides and shit.

EDIT: lol misinformation

also screw 1.04.

[jcap]

I honestly never even noticed that we were using a special UI, so for me it's a matter of removing bloat, not quality, no offense.
You still ignored the rest of it.

You ignored the argument says you wouldn't have to remove anything, and you also ignored the size issue over the past maybe 6 times it was brought up.

Bloat? Oh, because it was bloat when you guys wanted it in the first place?

Actually, what's most funny here is this:

Masterz1337: I was wondering if we could use it, since sp has no bitmap restrictionsOh well. Your loss. Slowly chipping away at yourselves...

[Choking Victim]

Masterz1337: I was wondering if we could use it, since sp has no bitmap restrictions It's not a matter of restrictions, it's a matter of filesize. A zteam map without a shared sounds.map and bitmaps.map was 112MB, with the shared maps, that size was cut down to 28MB. That's a 75% decrease in size at the least. When SPV1 was released, wasn't file transfer a big issue? Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't you have to pay for some of the bandwidth lost from one of your mirrored sites? (really I don't remember.)

[Arteen]

You ignored the argument says you wouldn't have to remove anything,
I don't find it to be too much of an issue, personally. We're already stuffing more stuff into each map than we really need. I think the issues bothering you more than me, anyhow.


you also ignored the size issue over the past maybe 6 times it was brought up.
I just asked for clarification on the size issue. How does that count as ignoring it?



Bloat? Oh, because it was bloat when you guys wanted it in the first place?
It's just a UI. It really isn't a big deal to me. If we can get the gameplay content we want into the mod, then I really don't think we need to complicate the issue with OS when we can just streamline the UI.


Oh well. Your loss. Slowly chipping away at yourselves...
Yes, our loss. Not yours, so why do you care so much?

[jcap]

Because you're like a suicidal person.

"Oh well, I guess they'll kill themselves. No use in talking them out of shooting their heads off because it's their loss."


And sorry for not seeing that question.

You can overwrite bitmaps and sounds, but by doing that, you'd make many unhappy because no other people (zteam) would be able to use them. You are best off making your own with OS.

[il Duce Primo]

What a great comparison. Comparing us to someone who is shooting their head off.

[Disaster]

I'm pretty sure several great games have had to cut content as well. Its not that big of a deal. You just seem to want us to cram every thing we can into the mod when that is not the way it should be.

Reminds me of the maps where new modders will pile all the shit into the map that they can get their hands on.

[=sw=warlord]

You know what pisses me off the most CMT guys? The way you are fucking kornman over. Your messing him around saying "yeah we will use it" then suddenly changing your mind.

Like kornman said updating it isnt an easy task, he has spent along time researching it your basically spitting in his face when you play him around.

Your willing to fuck him over, yet I bet at least one CMT member is using his updated HEK.
That's whats pissing me off the most as well.
Also happens to be why paladin got so but hurt and decided to spam -rep.

[jcap]

What a great comparison. Comparing us to someone who is shooting their head off.
Well it's essentially what you're doing.

[FRain]

What a great comparison. Comparing us to someone who is shooting their head off.

You're completely missing the point. You're sacrificing something for something completely retarded, is the point.

Ignorance still hasn't been pardoned yet.

[il Duce Primo]

You're completely missing the point. You're sacrificing something for something completely retarded, is the point.

Ignorance still hasn't been pardoned yet.
Because sacrificing the ability to switch your player color and name in campaign is more important than getting the mod out to so many people. Your'e retarded, that's the point.

[Arteen]

You know what pisses me off the most CMT guys? The way you are fucking kornman over. Your messing him around saying "yeah we will use it" then suddenly changing your mind.

Like kornman said updating it isnt an easy task, he has spent along time researching it your basically spitting in his face when you play him around.

Your willing to fuck him over, yet I bet at least one CMT member is using his updated HEK.
That's not our intent. We don't want to commit to using OS if it won't help us in any significant way. That seems fair, right? We asked if he could do some extra stuff too, and if he can't or doesn't want to, then he shouldn't feel obligated to do so. I'm sorry if we've come across as overbearing in our request.



You can overwrite bitmaps and sounds, but by doing that, you'd make many unhappy because no other people (zteam) would be able to use them. You are best off making your own with OS.
Basically, we can create spv2bitmaps.map and spv2sounds.map, and our maps will reference them instead of the stock bitmaps.map and sounds.map? Sounds nice.

[Choking Victim]

You can overwrite bitmaps and sounds, but by doing that, you'd make many unhappy because no other people (zteam) would be able to use them. You are best off making your own with OS.
Actually, our tools allow us to decompile any sounds.map/bitmaps.map file and add to it. So theoretically, if cmt released their own sounds.map and bitmaps.map, we can decompile them and add our own tags alongside cmt's and release that way. Though the way kornman seems to be doing the shared resource files, you'll have a config.txt file specifying the map names (ie:cmtbitmaps.map, cmtsounds.map) then open sauce will load those cache files into memory and read from them as necessary. That's what I gathered from korn's post about it anyway.

[jcap]

Yeah, that's what OS would do.

Only problem with reversing CMT's work and adding on, I guess, would be if you had conflicting tags. Also, if you had to do that, then you would need to release files that are twice the size. OS would just make it easier.

[PenGuin1362]

I'm pretty sure several great games have had to cut content as well. Its not that big of a deal. You just seem to want us to cram every thing we can into the mod when that is not the way it should be.

Reminds me of the maps where new modders will pile all the shit into the map that they can get their hands on.

What's called a "feature creep" in the industry. When new features are continually added to a game during production which causes delays, errors, and sometimes missed deadlines. End result being a very buggy game or a game with so much shit in it no one cares to try to figure it all out.

This leaves me with one suggestion to not just CMT, but everyone. You can always have another version of a mod, you don't need to fit everything you can think into one version (which is cmt tends to do >_>)

[SnaFuBAR]

You just seem to want us to cram every thing we can into the mod when that is not the way it should be.
You know, I'm glad you said this because the irony is that CMT seems to be the ones wanting to cram everything in, rather than use OS and not have to.:eyesroll:

[Masterz1337]

We have everything in our maps that we want, that's why we don't feel the need to use OS.

[jcap]

So you wanted the UI and now you don't want it? You asked for it and even tried to get someone to make a new BSP to negotiate for your use of it.

Oh that's right. Just say you don't want it to make yourself happy~

[FRain]

We have everything in our maps that we want, that's why we don't feel the need to use OS.
That logic may work for you, but think about how much OS would help for the map size and the separate bitmaps.map and sounds.map. Also, you've changed why you don't want to use OS so many time's its just not funny anymore.
First, it was the ridiculous "playerbase" argument.
Second, it was because of some "possible probable maybe instability" argument.
Now, it's "I already have all of the content".
That's not why it's recommended you use OS. We recommended so that you can have smaller map-spaces

[Masterz1337]

We did want the UI. Now we don't.

The UI adds 27 megs to each map.
There are 10 maps.
That is 270 MB Per person who downloads the mod.
100 people download the mod.
That is 27 Gigs.
200 People download
That is 54 Gigs

All that for a pretty pause menu?

[Donut]

if you guys just want to finish the mod, then why is "we are worried about the temptation of adding more shit without the restrictions" a valid argument?

i read to page 5 and couldnt read anymore. this whole thing is so stupid

[FRain]

We did want the UI. Now we don't.

The UI adds 27 megs to each map.
There are 10 maps.
That is 270 MB Per person who downloads the mod.
100 people download the mod.
That is 27 Gigs.
200 People download
That is 54 Gigs

All that for a pretty pause menu?
That's EXACTLY why we wanted you to use OS, is so that we could have a recompiled bitmaps.map and sounds.map.

[Roostervier]

Masters, if you use OS and use a shared bitmaps.map, you won't have to have the UI bitmaps in each map (meaning smaller map sizes). Couple this with the other bitmaps and sounds that will be saved to shared bitmaps.map and sounds.map, and you have significantly smaller map sizes all around. You're not using any logic, you make no sense. Just use OS.

[Masterz1337]

The team only agreed to use OS to make development easier, not for features. It's in the statement we made in the other thread.
We were happy with the way things were, other than the tagslot and map size errors, which are gone.

[FRain]

But what we're saying to use OS for is neither, it's for making map size smaller. There's no sense to arguing it. Using OS would make mapsize smaller, therefore you can keep the UI. I don't see why you seem to be boycotting OS for no apparent logical reason, but it's really ignorant and retarded.

[Masterz1337]

I understand that, we don't want to use OS to make our sizes smaller. We rather keep them larger and more simple than small and complicated. We like how things are.

[Cagerrin]

Everybody, good job.

[FRain]

I understand that, we don't want to use OS to make our sizes smaller. We rather keep them larger and more simple than small and complicated. We like how things are.
Three posts ago you were complaining about how the maps would be so damn big, and now you're saying you LIKE them big. Good job. You're retarded.

[L0d3x]

Seems like the OS people are changing motives the entire time too.
We don't need OS, plain and simple as that.

.

[Masterz1337]

Three posts ago you were complaining about how the maps would be so damn big, and now you're saying you LIKE them big. Good job. You're retarded.

I already told you, we rather keep things large and uncomplicated, rather than smaller and confusing. We are happy how things are. Using OS to make the files smaller is not a good enough reason to use it.

[FRain]

No, they keep coming up with more problems, so we give them their solutions. This repeats every time they try to come up with a reason to not use OS and then we tell them how they are wrong.

[DrunkenSamus]

Why are so many people viewing this thread? Holy shit. It's like House, but with CMT.

[sdavis117]

Why are so many people viewing this thread?
Because it's more entertaining then the new Star Trek movie (which was awesome btw).

All we have to do is somehow translate this thread into a Matrix fight, and you'd have the next big hit.

[Arteen]

I understand that, we don't want to use OS to make our sizes smaller. We rather keep them larger and more simple than small and complicated. We like how things are.
Actually, I think we should use OS to make file sizes smaller. The mod having its own spv2bitmaps.map and spv2sounds.map is nifty, and should cut down file sizes by quite a lot. When shouldn't burden the people who are willing to host the mod with larger files than necessary.

[FRain]

Alright, fine. Support the pirates. Make the maps bigger. Keep complaining about tagslots and spaces. I'm sure it will help you and make things better for you.

[Cagerrin]

Why are so many people viewing this thread? Holy shit. It's like House, but with CMT.
The only major difference being that this is both funnier and more facepalm-worthy. :golfclap:

[Masterz1337]

No, they keep coming up with more problems, so we give them their solutions. This repeats every time they try to come up with a reason to not use OS and then we tell them how they are wrong.

You guys still haven't been able to disprove how we don't want to use OS because we are happy with the mod as it is.

[Masterz1337]

Alright, fine. Support the pirates. Make the maps bigger. Keep complaining about tagslots and spaces. I'm sure it will help you and make things better for you.

We don't have any tagslot and tagspace problems.

[Timo]

Actually, I think we should use OS to make file sizes smaller. The mod having its own spv2bitmaps.map and spv2sounds.map is nifty, and should cut down file sizes by quite a lot. When shouldn't burden the people who are willing to host the mod with larger files than necessary.
Do it, I don't want to have to spend literally $20 towards bandwidth in order to download this mod D:

How much more complicated is having your own sounds.map and bitmaps.map?

[Masterz1337]

Korn can let us try it but we're not agreeing to anything.

[Arteen]

Do it, I don't want to have to spend literally $20 towards bandwidth in order to download this mod D:

How much more complicated is having your own sounds.map and bitmaps.map?
Hopefully Kornman can elucidate this for us. It would be nice if it's simple to set up and use.

From the player's perspective, it's just putting two more maps in the maps folder, which isn't a problem, as long as it's made clear to the player he needs the shared maps to play the SPv2 maps. I'm not sure Dennis will like having maps being dependent on other maps to run, but Masters said he'll ask him about it.

[FRain]

Oh, so we dropped the idea of an installer, then.

[Masterz1337]

No one has dropped reaper man's idea.

[flibitijibibo]

Hey, when did Tim Buckley get into modding?

Look, if simplicity is your concern, then work on the mod with large maps, but when polishing the product for release, OS would be nice to use when compressing it so it's not destroying whatever hosting you use. I mean, if it's a release, there's no changes to be made other than bugfixes, so complexity won't be a concern, right?

From what I've gathered in the thread, it seems people are mixing up the source with the public product. Masterz is concerned that making the maps smaller now would be too complicated to work with, which is perfectly fine. What everyone else is worried about is having these massive-ass files that don't need to be as big as they are. They're not done yet though. When working on a project, simplicity always wins. However, when the product is finished, convenience for the user is ALWAYS the winner against simplicity of the code/tags/whateveritisI'mnotinthisfield, because when a product is released, it is assumed that the inner workings will not need to be deeply tampered with, and thus, the complexity does not matter.

TL;DR: Let them be big as shit now, but when it's done, use OS to make it smaller.

[Amit]

Oh fuck, I'm not reading this entire thread. Somebody point-form the important stuff for me. Rest of the people GTFO with your unworthy posts.

[Arteen]

Korn can let us try it but we're not agreeing to anything.
If he can get it to work, then I really think we should use OS. As you know from SPv1, bandwidth is expensive.


TL;DR: Let them be big as shit now, but when it's done, use OS to make it smaller.
Hopefully OS is simple enough that it won't be an issue.


Oh fuck, I'm not reading this entire thread. Somebody point-form the important stuff for me. Rest of the people GTFO with your unworthy posts.


There are many reasons to use OS.
There are a few reasons to not use OS.
CMT still hasn't decided on whether to use OS.

That's about it so far.

[StankBacon]

http://www.filefront.com has no space or bandwidth constraints... so hosting is not an issue.

its the people downloading the mod that you need to worry about. (ie. people with b\w caps and slow dl speed.)

[jcap]

Seems like the OS people are changing motives the entire time too.
We don't need OS, plain and simple as that.

.
These issues were all presented in bulk (if not in this thread, then on AIM) before they were ever discussed here. The only reason they are going one at a time is because we have to force the question on you by dropping the rest of the post.


We did want the UI. Now we don't.

The UI adds 27 megs to each map.
There are 10 maps.
That is 270 MB Per person who downloads the mod.
100 people download the mod.
That is 27 Gigs.
200 People download
That is 54 Gigs

All that for a pretty pause menu?
Hmmm, with OS...
There are 10 maps.
~1 GB per person who downloads the mod.
100 people download the mod.
That is 100 GB.
200 people download
That is 200 GB.

All that because you are too ignorant to use a OS and a shared cache file?


I understand that, we don't want to use OS to make our sizes smaller. We rather keep them larger and more simple than small and complicated. We like how things are.
:realsmug:


You guys still haven't been able to disprove how we don't want to use OS because we are happy with the mod as it is.
It's difficult to talk someone out of their own lies they've been telling themselves since the beginning. All the excuses you made for yourself make you feel better about everything. However, as you can see by this thread, the rest of the community thinks your excuses are the dumbest things since UC Sarge.



The map size is really important, because it's really the one thing that affects everyone personally. In Timo's case, it's actually about money because he will be charged for every megabyte he goes over his monthly limit. Other people might be low on disk space (it's 2009, really, but still). Honestly, this is something I personally thought was most important, and I would have wanted this more than anything from the beginning of the project if I was working on it. Kornman offering to do this would be a godsend.

But let me just remind you that Kornman believes he can do it. He hasn't done it yet (worked on the other things instead). Even though he didn't do it, I still think it is important to bring up now rather than later while we're still debating OS.



Wow, I started typing this like two hours ago while playing Halo 3. Thanks for seeing one side of this Arteen. :|

[Neuro Guro]

Why things have to be this complicated, I am not sure.

[TVTyrant]

Why things have to be this complicated, I am not sure.
The simple answer is that its more fun this way. The long answer is that everyone hates each other. You see it goes back to the Aryan migration to Europe, wherin the final battle between Kefka and Sephiroth began. This battle is being continued today between Jcap and Masterz

[Cagerrin]

The simple answer is that its more fun this way. The long answer is that everyone hates each other. You see it goes back to the Aryan migration to Europe, wherin the final battle between Rockefeller ninja hitmen and Spider Jerusalem began. This battle is being continued today between Jcap and Masterz
fixed that for references

[Donut]

can you guys use torrents to get spv2 around? it seems like that would be a good way to go rather than whoring somebody's bandwidth

[Lightning]

You guys are making a campaign?

Edit: In all sincerity, though, at the whole "blah blah blah compatibility blah" thing, older pirated versions can easily be updated to 1.08, they just cannot play on multiplayer servers.

Now, why the hell would you worry about people not playing multiplayer for a PRIMARILY CAMPAIGN mod? Sorry if this was already addressed, but I was just spammed to check this out.

[FRain]

Holy shit, it's Lightning.

[Reaper Man]

I already told you, we rather keep things large and uncomplicated, rather than smaller and confusing. We are happy how things are. Using OS to make the files smaller is not a good enough reason to use it.
Smaller and confusing? You're kidding me right? I may not be a map dev expert, but this draws parallels with web development. Why would I want to repeatedly paste in my CSS style for each page when I can have it externalized, referenced, and give me a much neater code for my website. Why would I want to repeatedly place Java scripts withing a website, when I can have them externalized and just reference them? Etc etc. My site now takes up less bandwidth and is much easier to handle and update.

My app idea, way back, could solve even this, if you're still worried about versions, etc. You could include all the necessary apps/files in this hypothetical installer app. Why all this drama? It's uneccesary and completely irrational, with the exception of those arguing for OS.

[Mr Buckshot]

I remember H2CE made this thing called Direct2U that not only downloaded the maps but also provided .Net Framework. The same could be done here (regarding versions).

[Reaper Man]

I remember H2CE made this thing called Direct2U that not only downloaded the maps but also provided .Net Framework. The same could be done here (regarding versions).
Exactly, that's what I've been saying, along with jcap, for a while now. And they decided to use it, however, it seems they haven't seen the full potential of distributing with such an app.

[Lightning]

I already told you, we rather keep things large and uncomplicated, rather than smaller and confusing. We are happy how things are. Using OS to make the files smaller is not a good enough reason to use it.


We did want the UI. Now we don't.

The UI adds 27 megs to each map.
There are 10 maps.
That is 270 MB Per person who downloads the mod.
100 people download the mod.
That is 27 Gigs.
200 People download
That is 54 Gigs

All that for a pretty pause menu?



what?

[FRain]

I already pointed that out earlier, but he keeps lying to himself, so I just let him keep digging himself into his little corner.

[supersniper]

Exactly, that's what I've been saying, along with jcap, for a while now. And they decided to use it, however, it seems they haven't seen the full potential of distributing with such an app.I remember this!!!

But has CMT even had a reason to why they won't use os other than because they like it they way they want and don't want to change.

[Masterz1337]

**sigh**

We would RATHER things remain large and uncomplicated, that doesn't mean UNESSARILY large like including the Delta UI. We are happy how things are right now.

Using OS to make shared maps to make them smaller complicates things for the average user. Even though we would like to keep things large and uncomplicated, we don't have a problem with trying what Korn is working on and TRYING it, but we will not make an obligation to use it. It's worth trying, but we are not going to commit to something right now when we are happy where everything stands as it is.

[TVTyrant]

Thanks Masterz. I think that post was actually worth reading. I see what your saying about commitments and such. I also understand what you saying about complicating things for the average user, but here's something to consider:

Almost none of the people who would be playing Halo CE anymore are average users. They are mostly members of a very dedicated fanbase who are very into the whole 'scene' that goes on with it. I don't think the use of the OS application will overcomplicate the use of the mod, in fact, I think it would add to the appeal of it, as its showing off uncharted territory for the game. By using OS youd be enhancing peoples image of the game.

[itszutak]

Could the UI be released separately (IE, on Halomaps)? I know quite a few people have been anticipating it for years.

[StankBacon]

how is using OS going to make it more complicated?

[SnaFuBAR]

it's not, it's just bullshit talk from masters.

[Bodzilla]

I have yet to see us bitch about it. The only person is Jcap and he doesn't have anything to do with CMT. At this point he's just another fanboy.
Dane

Apparently danes ecstatic at the models he spends hours and days painting keep getting reduced in size or cut out completely.
he's never ever been annoyed or anything.
sarcasm

[n00b1n8R]

I already told you, we rather keep things large and uncomplicated, rather than smaller and confusing. We are happy how things are. Using OS to make the files smaller is not a good enough reason to use it.
Confusing how?

And for somebody on shitty internet (like me, ross, zilla, timo, etc), reducing file size is a pretty big concern for us (I've never even DL'd SPV1 because it was so fucking huge to bother spending over a day getting and a fair chunk of my cap).


Seems like the OS people are changing motives the entire time too.
We don't need OS, plain and simple as that.

.
More then a few OS people, so there's going to be different people pushing different reasons.


Actually, I think we should use OS to make file sizes smaller. The mod having its own spv2bitmaps.map and spv2sounds.map is nifty, and should cut down file sizes by quite a lot. When shouldn't burden the people who are willing to host the mod with larger files than necessary.
Arteen you are my favourite CMT member <33


We don't have any tagslot and tagspace problems.
I for one was looking forward to the Delta UI. It's all the little things that come together to give it a really polished look and I'm pretty dissapointed that you've ditched it.

Hey, when did Tim Buckley get into modding
This is an amazing post.

Almost none of the people who would be playing Halo CE anymore are average users. They are mostly members of a very dedicated fanbase who are very into the whole 'scene' that goes on with it. I don't think the use of the OS application will overcomplicate the use of the mod, in fact, I think it would add to the appeal of it, as its showing off uncharted territory for the game. By using OS youd be enhancing peoples image of the game.
A thousand times this.


This post was made while reading the entire thread in one sitting, so I know some of the points have been addressed (mostly).

[Masterz1337]

Could the UI be released separately (IE, on Halomaps)? I know quite a few people have been anticipating it for years.

The part of the UI we are talking about is part of the pause menu, the actual UI has nothing to do with us.


how is using OS going to make it more complicated?

Multiple files and OS.
Also distribution though Halomaps, Dennis has strict rules about what is and isn't ok, we have to check with him first.


Dane

Apparently danes ecstatic at the models he spends hours and days painting keep getting reduced in size or cut out completely.
he's never ever been annoyed or anything.
sarcasm

Dano has never had anything cut or removed from the mod. In fact, we've waited over a year for him to finish things for single levels, even though we didn't really need them. His flood bomber was an idea originally for the mod, but I told him we wouldn't be able to use it well before he started. If anything, I've asked him to do his stuff higher res (fp arms), and haven't lowered anything of his.

Any exception would be the MP maps, were bitmap size does matter. Those skins didn't really lose anything being lower resed, and they weren't even that good to begin with (and I'm sure he'd agree with that)

Edit: I've said many times before, these forums are the exception rather than the rule. Just because the concept behind OS and it's installation is easy for us, doesn't mean it will be for others. Out of curiosity, would you guys approve a CMT forum and be helpful to people who have trouble installing the mod, regardless if they read the readmes or had actual problems.

[n00b1n8R]

Pretty sure you can upload uncompiled stuff for tags which won't work unless they're all there.

Can't see why this wouldn't be OK vOv

PS: episodic release GET

[Masterz1337]

That's different. With OS, as far as I know, there would need to be a single map that would hold most of the CMT tags and content (this thing would be huge), and then individual map files which would load content out of the single map with most the tags.

If the player loads the actual map, then they exception out, if that's what happens, according to Halomaps current rules, the map can't be hosted. The same would go for the map will all the tags, although I think Korn may have said that he can make it playable, like a boxmap. I plan on clarifying it with Dennis later today what his stance on the issue is.

We also need to know how all this will work with HTC/HEK+, as we have been toying with a new idea for map protection, that would allow people access to all our content except models, bitmaps, sounds, and animations extractable. The reasoning behind this is that people can finally inspect and learn from our work, rather than it all be protected so people can't just slop our content around.

[n00b1n8R]

Why not just fully protect it like normal and release all the stuff you're fine with people looking at separately?

[p0lar_bear]

what the fuck is this thread http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/gf-cripesduck.gifqtcid

Wow this is the biggest shitfest to ever hit this forum.

Good job everyone.

[Masterz1337]

Why not just fully protect it like normal and release all the stuff you're fine with people looking at separately?

You want to download a tagset that has decayed into an unorganized hell to find a single particle system tag? HEK+/HTC is so much more convenient and makes it easier for everyone to find and get what they want.

[n00b1n8R]

You want to download a tagset that has decayed into an unorganized hell to find a single particle system tag? HEK+/HTC is so much more convenient and makes it easier for everyone to find and get what they want.
No idea, HEK+ would never play ball for me vOv

Is it so hard to just organise them all into folders? (weapons/blueplasmarifle/effects/particles)?

[Masterz1337]

If you're running on vista you have to disable some of the visual settings. It would take ages to re-organize the tagset and clean it up, there really is a lot of stuff. Lag did it once before, took him a REAL long time.

[Kornman00]

The &quot;ransom list&quot; was meant to be a joke :pMasters, I think you're thinking of how shared caches were done from Halo 2 and onwards. I'm talking about making a specific bitmaps\sounds\loc data files for your guy's campaign. Non-default data files would be placed into a subfolder of the &quot;maps&quot; folder so the game doesn't even acknowledge them unless I tell it to (and so if the user runs an older game version it will still pick up the original data files).I had some ideas made to not only make it fluent for the developers to produce autogenerated setup data (ie for adding their custom shared data files and new campaigns), but for the end user to specify what they want to load, if they decide to even load OS with HaloCE.
hackI think I still have D2U's source (at least the original GUI artwork it used anyway). I'm not at home so I can't verify.

hackEDIT: once again, proxy fuckin up mah posts

[Bodzilla]

Dano has never had anything cut or removed from the mod.
stopped reading right there.

your a lying fucktard.
i'm done.

[Lightning]

If you're running on vista you have to disable some of the visual settings. It would take ages to re-organize the tagset and clean it up, there really is a lot of stuff. Lag did it once before, took him a REAL long time.


I've never had to touch anything setting related to get any CE tool to work on my computer. Running Vista.

x64

Ever.

And I'm sorry Masters, but I refuse to believe you when you say that about Dane's work. Ever think that maybe he's trying to be polite ant NOT bitch to your face about getting hard work ripped out from under him after spending countless hours working on it, only to have him either have to redo it, making it look less than what was intended, or having it cut completely?

Oh, HEY! Now THAT sounds familiar.

[Masterz1337]

So according to you then [bod], because he had an idea rejected, it's the same as having content cut? Ideas are ideas and not content for a reason. I could go on about ideas I've had but said no to for any number or reasons.

Edit: Lights, I was talking to him about HEK+. Dane's content has never been cut. Just because he had an idea shot down doesn't mean we're cutting his work.

[t3h m00kz]

I fail to have an opinion in all of this. UGH MY BRAIN. :fail:

[Hunter]

I like ponies . . .




. . .




I am sure Dane has not complained either because he is being polite, or he does not mind as the work is experience for him, and he gets better.

Making the file sizes smaller would be a huge advantage, means two or three large files to download, but once they are out of the way the main campaign maps are small.

I don't see much more to discuss now until Masterz had tryed this OS update like he said he would. As for Dennis and his rules, I am sure he might make an exception for CMT, as it is a whole different scenario. CMT arnt some amiture mapping team, this campaign is much different than other campaigns released on halomaps. I am sure Dennis wouldnt like to have huge files though.

Like someone else suggested, cant you use a torrent as well as long as everyone will chip in and seed it.

And Masterz, you got the sparrowhawk working yet? And does that dropship still own its self on that level you streamed?

[Masterz1337]

dano555666: im permabanned
M4573R5 1337: can I have a statement to c&P then?
dano555666: why is it that big a dea lolz
dano555666: i had some ideas you rejected because they werent feasable
dano555666: ther was that flood thing and that shotgun thing though
dano555666: and hte human sword
dano555666: but really
dano555666: thats just meh
M4573R5 1337: but i've never had you make something and then discard it right?
dano555666: no lol
M4573R5 1337: other than maybe some minor textures that didnt fit in maybe
dano555666: ive made stuff out of my own initiative
M4573R5 1337: sure we had a few of those
dano555666: i had everytought they wouldnt make the cut
M4573R5 1337: cause of quality?
M4573R5 1337: or space?
dano555666: space
M4573R5 1337: really?
M4573R5 1337: didnt know you thought that
M4573R5 1337: up until now [a few days ago] space hasnt been an issue

So there you have it. By a few days ago I am referring to before we learned how much room delta added on.

[=sw=warlord]

If you're running on vista you have to disable some of the visual settings. It would take ages to re-organize the tagset and clean it up, there really is a lot of stuff. Lag did it once before, took him a REAL long time.
So thats why i can run vista premium and yet have no issues with HEK+ at all?


Any exception would be the MP maps, were bitmap size does matter. Those skins didn't really lose anything being lower resed, and they weren't even that good to begin with (and I'm sure he'd agree with that)

Right...so reducing the resolution of a bitmap dosn't reduce the quality or detail of said bitmap?
If that was true then why do major developers currently use higher resolution bitmaps than they did in the past generations?
....oh wait....

Getting a "quote" from dane on a AIM is pretty meaningless unless it was a screenshot especialy since he is banned.
There are others who have bitched about the cutting of content Doom seemed pretty pissed off last i spoke with him, a weapon sculpter who was told make a halo 3 spartan or get walking pretty much.

[Masterz1337]

Do you have Areo on? If not that's why. It's not me who is pulling this out of no where, it's a common problem with vista and HEK+.

I said they didn't really lose anything being lower resed, because they didn't The difference was minimal, I'm not saying there was 0 quality loss at all. The textures had a low amount of detail and for things like the AR we covered it up with shine.

[=sw=warlord]

Do you have Areo on? If not that's why. It's not me who is pulling this out of no where, it's a common problem with vista and HEK+.

I said they didn't really lose anything being lower resed, because they didn't The difference was minimal, I'm not saying there was 0 quality loss at all. The textures had a low amount of detail and for things like the AR we covered it up with shine.
Yes i have Aero on.
But thats the thing masterz, everything that dosn't look as good as it could, it ends up being chromed and then looks like crap because everything is grey due to the massive ammount of shine.
I've yet to see a CMT map without a chromed floor, wall, biped or even a vehicle.
Everymap i've seen has chrome of somesort somewhere.

[Masterz1337]

I like things that shine? We don't go and low res our bitmaps and then cover them with shine just because we can. For the AR it was the right move, everyone loved it.

DSalimander has been revising our forerunner shaders (which have been placeholder until this point on the account we were using placeholder bitmaps, make sense no?) and touching up bitmaps with Conscars, which I am guessing you are referring too (since they did look pretty bad and were super shiny), but if you have a problem with their work I'd love to see you take a go at it.

[Roostervier]

If DSalimander is actually helping CMT, then you've lost all your values.

[=sw=warlord]

I like things that shine? We don't go and low res our bitmaps and then cover them with shine just because we can. For the AR it was the right move, everyone loved it.

DSalimander has been revising our forerunner shaders (which have been placeholder until this point on the account we were using placeholder bitmaps, make sense no?) and touching up bitmaps with Conscars, which I am guessing you are referring too (since they did look pretty bad and were super shiny), but if you have a problem with their work I'd love to see you take a go at it.
Film critics don't make films.
How ever i could quite easily work on shader tags if i was needed as i've spent considerable time editing all the different kinds of tags and shaders became one of my favourites a while back.
But, little bit of a suggestion if you are going to make shaders for metal make it actualy look like different kinds of metals not just one generic shiny palette variety is the spice of life.

[Sel]

I fail to have an opinion in all of this. UGH MY BRAIN. :fail:

You say things like this, and live in constant fear of having your brains blown out in the back seat of a car by accident...

Also just out of curiosity, are you cutting up my bsp's too?

[Sel]

If DSalimander is actually helping CMT, then you've lost all your values.

To his credit, he is really fucking good at what he does. As far as his personality goes, it's way better than rewinding a few years back when I was back at halomaps, and he threatened to get his dad's shotgun and kill us all.

lol

[Doom]

Holy shit, what's with all the drama :lmao:? Aren't we just talking about halo?

-Doom

[ICEE]

If DSalimander is actually helping CMT, then you've lost all your values.

Salimander isn't as terrible of a guy as you think. His shader work is the best I've seen, granted he is a dick.

[TeeKup]

We were happy with the way things were, other than the tagslot and map size errors, which are gone.

Wait wait wait....go back.

How are they...GONE? Something like that just doesn't disappear. Did I miss something?

EDIT:
We don't have any tagslot and tagspace problems.

What?

[Arteen]

I've never had to touch anything setting related to get any CE tool to work on my computer. Running Vista.

x64

Ever.
HEK+ has issues with Vista, and I did have to disable desktop composition to get it to run. I also know that some people have issues with getting Sapien to run, and have to set its processor affinity in a certain way. You're lucky if it just worked fine for you.


Right...so reducing the resolution of a bitmap dosn't reduce the quality or detail of said bitmap?
The difference in quality is minor, as the textures will be scaled-down in-game anyway.

[Hunter]

Wait wait wait....go back.

How are they...GONE? Something like that just doesn't disappear. Did I miss something?

EDIT:

What?

Delta UI has been removed as it was too large for what it was worth. And Shiney is good :p

[TeeKup]

I don't get it. They removed something that boosts the quality of the mod substantially because they wanted more space...but they won't use OS even though it will give them virtually unlimited space?

I'm confused.

[Hunter]

File size for downloads is an issue, they are researching the use of OS to make seperate .bitmaps and .sounds files for the campaign which the game will ignore unless called upon by the campaign. This will make the levels smaller but will mean the bitmap and sound map may be large.

Although that may mean they could re add some content they removed, like the UI.

Also, Masterz. Are you have boarding in the campaign?

[Jean-Luc]

And Shiney is good :p

Tell that to Perfect Dark Zero :smith:

Fuck shiny.

[L0d3x]

I don't get it. They removed something that boosts the quality of the mod substantially because they wanted more space...but they won't use OS even though it will give them virtually unlimited space?

I'm confused.

I guess some people love their pause menu more than others.

[TeeKup]

I guess some people love their pause menu more than others.

Presentation is everything, regardless of what it is.

[Hunter]

Every last detail can make a difference. Even the smallest change or detail (Like a scratch on a texture). Just depends where it is.

[p0lar_bear]

So, so, let me lay this down since I have seen this whole thing go in gigantic fucking circles.

Masterz, it's a huge lie to say that you aren't having any space issues. Sure, they're gone for now, but the second you try to tweak something, I guarantee they'll come back; you know how the HEK works. It's why I refuse to let Lightning add anything more to Floodlab; it took us how long to get it the way it is, and I don't want to risk another major halt in production because Tool wants to be a douchebag.

And it's true, watching form the sidelines, that every time someone shoots down some of your reasonings as to why you won't use OS, you come up with something a little more convoluted that makes less sense.

Let me say this: while I was pleased with the content added/changed in that last build of d40 that I played, I just want to say, looking back, that it lacked rhyme and reason. I know that Jen Taylor isn't in your team and thus, you can't have Cortana comment on why all of a sudden the quick way to the engine room is blocked off, but there needs to be something in place to explain to the Halo players why they're being rerouted through this completely new and convoluted track of the level, besides for the sake of fighting more enemies. Perhaps try to find a Cortana/Johnson/Stacker/Foehammer sound-alike, or add in some kind of support character to give the needed explanation.

If you guys are done with adding new concepts to the mod and you're still brushing your heads against the size limits, by all means, take up Kornman's offer, and try to replace some of the things you cut from the stock campaign. I've butted heads with you guys on this before, but I still stand strong that Halo is a very cinematic game. With all of the seemingly pointless aesthetic that's been cut to make way for more enemies, I'm starting to feel like BioHalo will have more character in it than this campaign rehash.

[L0d3x]

Presentation is everything, regardless of what it is.

We're talking about a pause menu here, not the user interface ingame.
You're statement is also too generalised. Only if an apple is presented as a pack of sigarettes, will it severly influence it's sales rate. However, an apple wrapped up in some plastic foil, or packed in a super duper awesome box of apples, will not necesarily influence it's sales.

Not that sales is an issue for this mod. Having a fancy pause menu is NOT something that would be used to promote this mod in the first place.

[Hunter]

An apple between a girls breasts, that would influence sales :giggle:

Unless your gay

. (http://www.amitbhawani.com/Images/A/apple-hot-girl.jpg)
Was looking for an apple between breasts on google found that babe instead :P But look, it says Apple on her breast :P

[blind]

Laugh out loud, are you all experiencing the emotional state of anger
:CN3089post:

[TeeKup]

We're talking about a pause menu here, not the user interface ingame.
You're statement is also too generalised. Only if an apple is presented as a pack of sigarettes, will it severly influence it's sales rate. However, an apple wrapped up in some plastic foil, or packed in a super duper awesome box of apples, will not necesarily influence it's sales.

Not that sales is an issue for this mod. Having a fancy pause menu is NOT something that would be used to promote this mod in the first place.

And you're being too lax about it. You people don't understand that there are a lot of people that look at the small things about a mod/video game. A lot of my friends are like this, surprising a lot of people on here are too.

You're throwing it off because "oh its just a pause menu it can be cut."

Frankly I find this level of thinking stupid and lazy.

[L0d3x]

And you're being too lax about it. You people don't understand that there are a lot of people that look at the small things about a mod/video game. A lot of my friends are like this, surprising a lot of people on here are too.

You're throwing it off because "oh its just a pause menu it can be cut."

Frankly I find this level of thinking stupid and lazy.

When people review games, the menu system will only factor in very minorly. The delta UI is great and all, but I'm sure whatever we decided to use will be decent as well. If a great game has a normal, decent menu, this won't factor in at all, just like how a great game with a great menu will not get a significantly better review than the first. This really is not a huge issue to discuss in the first place.

The fact you threw in that last sentence just shows you can't find enough decent arguments to support your view.

[TeeKup]

When people review games, the menu system will only factor in very minorly. The delta UI is great and all, but I'm sure whatever we decided to use will be decent as well. If a great game has a normal, decent menu, this won't factor in at all, just like how a great game with a great menu will not get a significantly better review than the first. This really is not a huge issue to discuss in the first place.

The fact you threw in that last sentence just shows you can't find enough decent arguments to support your view.

That last sentence shows that I find your thinking lazy and stupid and nothing more.

If you have the power and capability to make something its very best with minimal consequences, why in the hell wouldn't you? Why on earth would you settle for anything less.

I'll say it again.

Lazy and stupid.

[jcap]

Before I catch up on the last 7 pages of this thread, I'll reply to the latest.

Yeah, we are talking about a UI. We're using it as an example. It was cut because you are facing problems. It's just one of the things - one of the most recent things - that was cut because of your problems. Case in point. You really couldn't have shot yourselves in the foot better than you just did.

[L0d3x]

That last sentence shows that I find your thinking lazy and stupid and nothing more.

If you have the power and capability to make something its very best with minimal consequences, why in the hell wouldn't you? Why on earth would you settle for anything less.

I'll say it again.

Lazy and stupid.

I don't think you're in the position to tell who is lazy and stupid. Especially not when you're talking to me. You come in here, making a ridiculous statement, without knowing any of my background.

Says enough about you. Nice try though at trying to make yourself look all mighty and smart, unfortunately not everyone is gifted with these talents.

@Jcap: "one of the many things you have been cutting lolol"
=> Wrong, quit making up bullshit.

[TeeKup]

I don't think you're in the position to tell who is lazy and stupid. Especially not when you're talking to me. You come in here, making a ridiculous statement, without knowing any of my background.

Says enough about you. Nice try though at trying to make yourself look all mighty and smart, unfortunately not everyone is gifted with these talents.

@Jcap: "one of the many things you have been cutting lolol"
=> Wrong, quit making up bullshit.

I couldn't care less of ANYONES background when they disregard common sense.

[L0d3x]

I couldn't care less of ANYONES background when they disregard common sense.

I suppose you don't care about your own background then. Well, good for you there. Man, using that thick text almost made you seem awesome and capable of having a decent argument.

[SnaFuBAR]

@Jcap: "one of the many things you have been cutting lolol"
=> Wrong, quit making up bullshit.
except it's true.

[TeeKup]

I'm done with you. If you want to cut something that can add to the quality of the mod, then have at it. One thing I know you will have half-assed. I suggest you get your so called leader to swallow his pride and come to a middle ground. Because right now I see no viable solution. Well I do, it just won't be accepted.

[L0d3x]

I'm done with you. If you want to cut something that can add to the quality of the mod, then have at it. One more thing I know you will have half-assed. I suggest you get your so called leader to swallow his pride and come to a middle ground. Because right now I see no viable solution. Well I do, it just won't be accepted.

You weren't the challenge I thought you'd be.

My point still stands untouched, and all arguments I took into account were true, and were more significant than yours.

There's more to this though, that you don't know about.

[Masterz1337]

I did come to a middle ground, I said we'd use it and if it works as expected we'll use it. You guys didn't like that idea.

[Arteen]

except it's true.
Honestly, we've cut so much more stuff for time and effort reasons than for space issues. Everything we've cut for space issues has been minor or irrelevant.

dooooooooooozzzzyyyyyyyy

[TeeKup]

You weren't the challenge I thought you'd be.

My point still stands untouched, and all arguments I took into account were true, and were more significant than yours.

There's more to this though, that you don't know about.

Excuse me? Challenge? To think you called me High and Mighty...

And people call me the arrogant fag...

[teh lag]

This discussion is now over.

There have been a lot of really shitty and stupid points made here by people who are more intent on maintaining their positions than actually coming to a conclusion. I won't bother pointing them out, since anyone with half a brain should be able to recognize them for themselves. Part of me wants to hand out a bunch of infractions for the sheer level of idiocy that's been going on in here. Everyone in this should have realized that this argument stopped being relevant quite a while ago.

Sometimes people need to realize that their position isn't the best one.

Sometimes people need to realize it's not worth yelling at a deaf man.

Sometimes people need to realize that there are more important things than pride and being independent.

Sometimes people need to realize that they're wasting their and everyone else's time.

The above statements apply to both sides. Smart people should be able to figure out what refers to what, even it refers to them.

Yes, OS is significant but it's not worth 32+ pages (counting the other thread) of debate over. CMT is just a mod. P0lar's (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showpost.php?p=398526&postcount=187) post said a lot of what I wanted to say, so you can all just read it again and get the gist of what I'm feeling. This argument has gone around and around and around and around over the same exact points. I won't bother to address them again, as I said in my last post here.

That said, we will not get anything more out of this thread than people throwing poo at each other in response to poo that was thrown at them in response to poo that was thrown at them ad infinitum. People who want to continue to go at it over a subject that's been worn to death by everyone to whom it is directly relevant can do so in private if they want to so damn badly. This has become nothing but a set of people arguing for the sake of arguing with the actual logic of decision-making thrown out the window; a channel for personal grudges to develop or, if they already exist, to continue.

I suggest you all drop this. I long since have.

[jcap]

This is not over.

But the thread will remain locked for now.

Masters stated back on page 14 or so that he agreed to use OS if it works out. Hopefully he isn't an asshole lying son of a bitch who is just saying that to get off his back. If you don't follow through, you know how this shitstorm is going to pan out.

So we'll wait.

[Kornman00]

Just tested the new additions to OS_tool (which includes memory upgrades and shared data files modification).

test scenario: H2_Zanzibar
without custom shared data files:
79,822KB

with:
21,675KB

also:
"total tag size is 8.31M (26.19M free)"

[jcap]

Now that was completed unbelievably fast.

[Cortexian]

Not that file size doesn't matter to some people, but I don't think most people would care if CMTSP2 was 10GB nowadays. The majority of people don't have bandwidth caps anymore, and you can easily download 10-20GB overnight from the right sources.

[jcap]

But why have it unnecessarily big when it can easily be 1/3 the size with the available Tool? (pun intended :rolleyes:)

Bandwidth is still an issue for people, and if not the downloaders, then the hosts. And then there's the slow speeds. Sure, you might have a FiOS line capable of 2.5 MB/s (hell, I downloaded a 6 GB file in 40 minutes Saturday morning), but if you can only download at a mere 50 kB/s because of the load and/or shared hosting site limits, then you're not going to finish for a long time.

[Kornman00]

Masters argues he wants to target everyone, but what about the people with bandwidth caps (Timo) or rather slow connections (I only get 240kb/s :|)?

Even if he stays with making it avaiable to non-1.08ers, there are going to be people who will have a hard time getting this. Where as if they upgrade to 1.08, not only will it save their bandwidth and HDD space, but they'll gain the features of Yelo.

[Rook]

And people with small hard drives. (90gb on C:)

[Jean-Luc]

And people with small hard drives. (90gb on C:)
You call that small? My C drive is 40gb :saddowns:

[Rook]

Yeah since even the crappiest computers from wal-mart usually have atleast 250gb nowadays.

My 2nd drive only has 30gb oh well!

[CodeBrain]

While I agree that OS would benefit both CMT, and the rest of the community, I feel that Masterz has his reasons for not using it.

Sure, he may be helping the pirates by allowing the 1.00 and 1.04 community (Which currently has the most user base on HCE), however they might "turn over" if CMT were released under 1.08, and Open Sauce.

However, there is a 50 percent chance that people WON'T buy Halo, and will scourge the internet either by posting on forums:


hai guyz CMT just releazed tehir new campain, any1 got a cd key??//?Or by searching with Google (Like that'll ever happen, considering most of the internet newbies never search.)

As always, CMT, and the community, would benefit from having this Open Sauce update. However new problems might occur.

1. What happens if a modder makes one set of bitmaps.map and sounds.map, and then he creates another set that uses a couple different bitmaps and sounds. This might result in creating two of the same, which could waste space on a hard drive. A fix would be to create only one of each, then dump everything that is only bitmaps and sounds, into those two files.

2. OS_Tool, as gracious as it may be, since it is made with the "stable but unstable" Open Sauce, it could damage the structure of the map file itself, causing errors all around. Of course I am not doubting Kornman, but it could happen.

Edit: What I said in #2 would probably apply to a "newcommer" in the Halo CE enviroment.

[jcap]

Worrying about pirates is nothing. They know they pirated it, and they won't openly ask for a key. You usually have those who don't know how to pirate asking for keys.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your bitmaps/sounds.map scenario. But if I understand it correctly, why would anyone ever do that? If you want to have two sets, compile them into the same, or just don't reference it as a shared resource and compile that in the map. Shared caches are meant for things that are universal across all maps, such as bitmaps, sounds, music, weapons, vehicles, and UI elements. And regardless, you'll always have a scenario that is either the same size as it would normally be or smaller.

OS could be unstable depending on what you do and who does it. I don't want to speak for Kornman here, but I would assume that something like this is pretty damn stable as long as you use it right. Not really sure how it can screw up and go so wrong when it's just compiling like normal, but splitting resources between two files.

[CodeBrain]

Worrying about pirates is nothing. They know they pirated it, and they won't openly ask for a key. You usually have those who don't know how to pirate asking for keys.

This is true, most of them don't ask for it. However, I should say a slight few ask for it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your bitmaps/sounds.map scenario. But if I understand it correctly, why would anyone ever do that? If you want to have two sets, compile them into the same, or just don't reference it as a shared resource and compile that in the map. Shared caches are meant for things that are universal across all maps, such as bitmaps, sounds, music, weapons, vehicles, and UI elements. And regardless, you'll always have a scenario that is either the same size as it would normally be or smaller.

Like I said in my edit, a inexperienced modder who just started using OS, because of all the cool stuff he heard you could do with it, might lead to what I said before hand. However, I do believe Korn would of already figured that scenario out already, and made it only one map, no more than that.

OS could be unstable depending on what you do and who does it. I don't want to speak for Kornman here, but I would assume that something like this is pretty damn stable as long as you use it right. Not really sure how it can screw up and go so wrong when it's just compiling like normal, but splitting resources between two files.

Again, Korn is undoubtedly the best coder I've seen, and I don't doubt him for anything he does. What I mean is if the user compiled his own source, that could lead to unstableness within OS, if the user was inexperienced with coding for HCE, but have enough knownledge for good coding (Sorry Shadow, I'm going to use you for a moment :( ) Shadow said he couldn't code OS, much more difficult than normal coding, and look how good he is at coding.

Replies in bold.

[ShadowSpartan]

1. What happens if a modder makes one set of bitmaps.map and sounds.map, and then he creates another set that uses a couple different bitmaps and sounds. This might result in creating two of the same, which could waste space on a hard drive. A fix would be to create only one of each, then dump everything that is only bitmaps and sounds, into those two files.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate?


2. OS_Tool, as gracious as it may be, since it is made with the "stable but unstable" Open Sauce, it could damage the structure of the map file itself, causing errors all around. Of course I am not doubting Kornman, but it could happen.
I don't see how Open Sauce could damage the structure of a map file. Nothing is really being changed in the map files. A particular tag will still have a value that specifies if the bitmap or sound is external, OS is just going to change which map the engine will load the tags from.


Edit: What I said in #2 would probably apply to a "newcommer" in the Halo CE enviroment.
A "newcomer" to CE should have enough common sense to be able to read a readme and follow instructions on how to install OS and make the maps playable.


Like I said in my edit, a inexperienced modder who just started using OS, because of all the cool stuff he heard you could do with it, might lead to what I said before hand. However, I do believe Korn would of already figured that scenario out already, and made it only one map, no more than that.
I still don't understand what you meant before, but an inexperienced modder should not, and probably would not be using the shared map file feature of OS.


Again, Korn is undoubtedly the best coder I've seen, and I don't doubt him for anything he does. What I mean is if the user compiled his own source, that could lead to unstableness within OS, if the user was inexperienced with coding for HCE, but have enough knownledge for good coding (Sorry Shadow, I'm going to use you for a moment :( ) Shadow said he couldn't code OS, much more difficult than normal coding, and look how good he is at coding.
I highly doubt an "inexperienced" coder will be able to figure out what OS is doing, let alone edit something major and still get it to compile. If somebody released an edited OS source code, there is no doubt that it won't be as stable as something Korn would write. It's not like a person who has no knowledge coding is going to be writing this shared map file code for OS, so I don't see what the problem is. If a person edits OS's source code, and fucking something up to where it becomes "unstable", then it's their fault, and it's not like people are going to be forced to use that.

And about me, I don't have any C++ experience, though I do have a little bit of C now, so that restricts me a lot when trying to look at OS and figure out what the hell it's doing. I can understand parts of it, but I really haven't had much time to sit down and thoroughly look at it. I plan on looking at it again sometime soon hopefully.

[Kornman00]

While OS_Tool (along with OS_Guerilla and OS_Sapien) are part of the "Open Sauce" package, they are not being compiled from the same code base as the Yelo portion of OS. The only open source part of OS currently is Yelo, and it has a license which requires any changes made to the source to be published\made avaiable. The changes I'm making in terms of upgrading the memory are going to be required to be part of the base Yelo framework so its there in all Yelo deviations and thus doesn't introduce versioning conflicts.

The shared data files system in OS_Tool works based on the the "mod" concept. There are currently two new commands added to tool, one of them being a variant 'build-cache-file'. The user specifies the "mod" name, the scenario being built and if the cache requires the memory upgrades. From here, the stock data files are copied and renamed into the "data_files" folder, which is a child folder in "maps".
For example, for h2ce: "maps\data_files\h2ce-bitmaps.map".
Since the mod's data files are based around the stock data files, original maps made prior to OS will still play just fine without any special un\loading during game play. I'm only recommending that custom shared data files be used for campaign mods.
Since OS_Tool is based around tool's code, there shouldn't be any instability except what of which was already there. The option to build a regular cache file a la "tool.exe" is still there along with all original commands.

Another option I'm considering allowing is a globals tag override, so you can easily use different globals for different scenarios. Plus I have a few other ideas up my sleeve, one of which some of you scripters may particuarlly like.

Current memory upgrade testing is based around a 50% increase in maximum tag instances and tag memory, and with a maximum cache size of 512MB (any cache type, even UI). This may change come release.

I tried making Yelo decently stable, but it still has its issues (especially when you don't grasp whats being executed, lack of documentation aside), like the statistics code which causes a crash when killing an AI unit. I should have this fixed in the next Yelo release as I wasn't testing on any AI maps when I originally created the code (after all, CE is suppose to be MP only :downs:). It could be worse; only two people actually test it internally (down to one since bitter isn't active)

[CodeBrain]

I would test it in bitter's place, but I know what your going to say already.

[Masterz1337]

lmao. Are you serious Jcap? Our answer is no.

[SnaFuBAR]

So you're not using OS? Lmao

[L0d3x]

Lmao @ your lmao ^
xD

Roflcopter.

[Rook]

I wanted to put a really rude comment here but i refrained.


bad choice

[Roostervier]

you've gotta be kidding me

[Arteen]

Why not release an OS version of SPv2 along with a regular version, so that people who have issues with file sizes and bandwidth can also get SPv2? Therefore everyone's happy, except for the people who :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:omfghate:mad::mad::mad: pirates.

We asked Dennis about the OS/SPv2 issues, and he convinced us that non-OS was the way to go.

[Reaper Man]

lmao. Are you serious Jcap? My answer is no.
Ftfy.

[Kornman00]

We asked Dennis about the OS/SPv2 issues, and he convinced us that non-OS was the way to go.
What did he reason?

Also, if you try to do that one with and without OS idea for any of your MP maps, if they're using the custom shared data files people won't be able to play together if one of them is using OS and one isn't due to cache differences. However if its just for SP like I recommend, then all is savvy

[Masterz1337]

Ftfy.

Geee, the keylogger on my PC must be providing you with so much intel......

[Masterz1337]

What did he reason?

Also, if you try to do that one with and without OS idea for any of your MP maps, if they're using the custom shared data files people won't be able to play together if one of them is using OS and one isn't due to cache differences. However if its just for SP like I recommend, then all is savvy


I'll start with my opinion first. It is my opinion that to reach the maximum number of people, the maps should run on their own without any special application or .dll file and should be installed as with any other map.

I come to this conclusion based on my experience with other games and software and also with the several open sauce .dll files that have been submitted for hosting. Every single one of them has caused our test machine to exception and the test machine has nothing else on it but a fresh fully patched install of XP, Halo CE and a mid level ATI-video card all with current drivers. This is why there are no "open sauce" applications hosted here.

I dare not think what will happen on a vista machine or much less a 64bit OS or Windows 7 machine. Many of the still "working" 3rd part apps for Halo CE do not work on a 64bit OS, now a standard install on new PC's, which is an issue that has hampered the completion of Season 5 of the Halo CE Chronicles.

I have nothing against Kornman, he is a smart guy, and his open sauce concept has some interesting possibilities however it has been my experience that third party add-ins to a closed source game will only ever reach a niche portion of the community of users and Halo CE is already a small niche. Any scheme that requires extra steps, remote hosting, or fragments the files should be steered clear of if you want the MOD to gain wide acceptance.

Regardless of what people say they want (open sauce, new features, etc…) what they really want is for it to be easy and simple to play the game. Anything other than download and play is an extra step that will put people off. Especially if they run into problems with the .DLL or application.

I have enough bandwidth to support the downloads and will also be willing to put up a special page just for the CMT SPV 2 mod files so it is easier for people to find them however breaking them up into fragments with an untested, unproven application is in my opinion unwise. But then again, I'm an old fart so what do I know .

Dennis

This topic is dead and done.

[Arteen]

Remember, we're dealing with people who have a much lower understanding and aptitude than us.

[Choking Victim]

Remember, we're dealing with people who have a much lower understanding and aptitude than us.

It requires the same level of intelligence to drag and drop a dll into the Halo CE directory as it does to drop a map into the maps subdirectory.

[Reaper Man]

Eh, Dennis did raise a good point though. I heard there are many issues with running CE on newer/64bit versions of Windows.

[Rob Oplawar]

I need to +rep Dennis. That was the first reasonable and intelligent post in favor of not-OS in this thread.

[p0lar_bear]

His views are valid, but I'm surprised that he, as a webmaster, is willing to subject himself to more bandwidth rape in exchange for playability.

[jcap]

It takes even less effort to run an exe that will put it there. Another dumb reason. Plus, you're bitching about them having to add a single fucking DLL? Are you shitting me? So that's a big deal and adding maps to the maps folder isn't? Really?

Longass post incoming later.

And Masters, you're a fucking retard because he never even said no in that. He gave you his opinion, but there's SO many holes in there that you clearly don't have the brain capacity to fill.

[p0lar_bear]

I think I speak for everyone when I say this is getting really fucking old, can we stop now?

[jcap]

I believe we had that answered last time when the truce was called, but when Masters broke it...

[Masterz1337]

It takes even less effort to run an exe that will put it there. Another dumb reason. Plus, you're bitching about them having to add a single fucking DLL? Are you shitting me? So that's a big deal and adding maps to the maps folder isn't? Really?

Longass post incoming later.

And Masters, you're a fucking retard because he never even said no in that. He gave you his opinion, but there's SO many holes in there that you clearly don't have the brain capacity to fill.
You can post but I'm not going to waste my time reading it. Dennis gave us good reasons not to use OS, even though he would host if we chose to use it, even though he doesn't think it's the right way to go.

Stop being such a cry baby bitch and over it. Surely you can get a less retarded team to use OS.

[Roostervier]

The problem with that is, we've given you even more good reasons to use OS. There is more good from using OS than bad. Quit being so stubborn and just use the damned thing.

[Masterz1337]

Did you read Dennis's PM? Obviously not, because there's more bad than good.

[Jean-Luc]

The problem with that is, we've given you even more good reasons to use OS. There is more good from using OS than bad. Quit being so stubborn and just use the damned thing.

I'm not downloading a 10GB mod, hence the reason I refuse to touch FakeFactory's monstrosity for Half-Life 2. It may look great, but it's a goddamn waste of space.

[Sel]

Did you read Dennis's PM? Obviously not, because there's more bad than good.

You're obviously not going to see any other side of the argument, other than your own.

[Masterz1337]

I'm not downloading a 10GB mod, hence the reason I refuse to touch FakeFactory's monstrosity for Half-Life 2. It may look great, but it's a goddamn waste of space.

Well, I got some good news for you then, because when rared the mod is only going to be about a gig and a half.

[Masterz1337]

You're obviously not going to see any other side of the argument, other than your own.

Well rather than attack me, why don't you explain to me how Dennis's points aren't valid and worth listening to.

[Roostervier]

Personally I think more people would download the mod if it were 3gb as opposed to 10 gb (example figures). I also believe that if the mod were less limited, that would also get more downloads. And the people with difficulties running halo ce already have most likely given up on the game, so there's no use in catering to them (considering they're a small minority anyway, even if they haven't given up on it). Placing a single .dll file is as easy as placing maps in the map folder. If that's not enough for you, it could be made even easier if you'd simply make an install for the entire mod to simplify the process further, thereby eliminating the need for a readme and the use of half a brain to understand what you're supposed to do to get the mod to work.

[Jean-Luc]

Well, I got some good news for you then, because when rared the mod is only going to be about a gig and a half.
Ima go stab Flyinrooster for lyin to me. brb

[Roostervier]

When I was talking to you, I was using example figures. If you want to look at the real file sizes, then I'd much rather download 400mb instead of 1.5gb.

[STLRamsFan]

I'm surprised that he, as a webmaster, is willing to subject himself to more bandwidth rape in exchange for playability.

That actually surprised me a bit too. Then again, he really has given a lot to the community with the hosting he's provided all these years... Without him, Halo CE probably wouldn't have existed as long as it has.

[Jean-Luc]

Does the human being reason? No; he thinks, muses, reflects, but does not reason...That is, in the two things which are the peculiar domain of the heart, not the mind,--politics and religion. He doesn't want to know the other side. He wants arguments and statistics for his own side, and nothing more.
- Mark Twain's Notebook (http://www.twainquotes.com/Reasoning.html)

May not be politics or religion, but the idea still applies.

[Masterz1337]

Personally I think more people would download the mod if it were 3gb as opposed to 10 gb (example figures). I also believe that if the mod were less limited, that would also get more downloads. And the people with difficulties running halo ce already have most likely given up on the game, so there's no use in catering to them (considering they're a small minority anyway, even if they haven't given up on it). Placing a single .dll file is as easy as placing maps in the map folder. If that's not enough for you, it could be made even easier if you'd simply make an install for the entire mod to simplify the process further, thereby eliminating the need for a readme and the use of half a brain to understand what you're supposed to do to get the mod to work.

Well you believed Barack Obama was a Muslim, so I don't really care what you "personally believe". The point is, placing a single DLL file that doesn't work on the majority of computers isn't an option we want to follow. You say use an installer, majority of people aren't going to use an installer, and it still doesn't solve the problem of systems that are incompatible with OS.

[blind]

Well, I got some good news for you then, because when rared the mod is only going to be about a gig and a half.
Its still a huge waste of space.