So, I heard North Korea conducted another nuclear test....

[FRain]

North Korea did exactly what it said it would do on May 25, 2009, when it conducted a nuclear test as promised in its April 28, 2009, statement in response to UN sanctions imposed on three North Korean firms in accordance with an April 13, 2009, UN Security Council Presidential Statement (http://sitrep.globalsecurity.org/articles/090413294-un-security-council-response-t.htm) condemning North Korea's April 5, 2009, missile test. The test furthers North Korea's strategic objective of making permanent its status as a nuclear weapons state. North Korea's announcement of the test shows that a primary political target of North Korea's nuclear test is domestic, as was the case with North Korea's April 5th missile launch (http://sitrep.globalsecurity.org/articles/090406290-north-koreas-missile-test-off-.htm).


North Korea's May 25, 2009, statement announcing the test (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/world/asia/25nuke-text.html)ties the rationale for the test directly to the leadership succession issue, underscoring an apparent fear that external actors will take advantage of unfolding succession arrangements to intervene or destabilize North Korea. The announcement emphasizes the need to "bolster up its nuclear deterrent for self-defence in every way," ties the test to a 150-day internal political and propaganda campaign designed to lay the framework for succession arrangements, and asserts that "the test will contribute to defending the sovereignty of the country and the nation and socialism and ensuring peace and security on the Korean Peninsula and the region around it with the might of (the military first policy) songun."

A May 23, 2009, article prior to the test in Chosun Sinbo (http://www.korea-np.co.jp/news/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleID=36836), a Japan-based newspaper that North Korea often uses as an unofficial mouthpiece, states that "if the situation has reached a stage where the spokesperson for the DPRK Ministry of Foreign Affairs has to state that the desire for denuclearization has evaporated for good, adopting a method of a bold approach is inevitable." The article then calls for the United States to make a "switchover in its policy" as a prerequisite for renewed dialogue. Although North Korea has reason based on past experience to expect that this pattern of provocation and dialogue is an effective way of taming the United States, the North's expectation that the Obama administration would normalize relations with North Korea absent denuclearization is a serious miscalculation. Sig Hecker provided a prescient technical analysis which also anticipated the likelihood of a second North Korean nuclear test in the May 12, 2009, issue of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. (http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/features/the-risks-of-north-koreas-nuclear-restart)

Source. (http://sitrep.globalsecurity.org/articles/090525351-second-nuclear-test-north-kore.htm)

Discuss.

[=sw=warlord]

...If they really want to play with fire just drop a Tsar on them and see how much data they can gather from that...

[FRain]

Thing is, I don't think we have anything bigger than a 15MT warhead, Tsar was a 50 MT gravity bomb.

[Jelly]

Send mean notes to Russia pretending to be North Korea, then send mean notes to North Korea pretending to be Russia. The problems will sort themselves.

[Aerowyn]

Send mean notes to Russia pretending to be North Korea, then send mean notes to North Korea pretending to be Russia. The problems will sort themselves.

I was thinking quite the same thing. :)

[nooBBooze]

So?


No, seriously, why should I care?

[TVTyrant]

So?


No, seriously, why should I care?
.

North Korea is run by a cowardly idiot. He'd never do anything except use it as a bargaining tool /coward

[nooBBooze]

Well given his impoverished and politically isolated country he seems to be acting out of necessity rather than "cowardice". These moral notions may work for individual persons but they should have no buisness in politics.

[=sw=warlord]

Well given his impoverished and politically isolated country he seems to be acting out of necessity rather than "cowardice". These moral notions may work for individual persons but they should have no buisness in politics.
Pretty much, we all know if he did use these weapons against someone else then there would be more than justfied reason to strike back.
I highly doubt theyl use these on someone.

[TVTyrant]

Well given his impoverished and politically isolated country he seems to be acting out of necessity rather than "cowardice". These moral notions may work for individual persons but they should have no buisness in politics.
If he were acting out of neccesity he'd give up his control of the country peacefully and join into a unified Korea. Your move, Yugi boy.

[rossmum]

How about we discuss the topic like adults and stop with the "har har nuke them" and "har har provoke the commies into nuking them" bullshit?

[nooBBooze]

If he were acting out of neccesity he'd give up his control of the country peacefully and join into a unified Korea. Your move, Yugi boy.
Yeah, politics doesn't work like TV would have you believe.
Something like that would imply the complete dissolution of the current governmental structures and nobody in their right mind would volontarily submit to that. Yeah, people are starving over there but seriously, who gives a FUCK about poor people. That argument as well as the fact that the rather oppressive regime is imprisoning, torturing, executing and spying on its people is simply invalid especially if it's applied by people who pledge for the submission of said regime to another that shares the exact same qualities except that its economy and propaganda infrastructure is far more developed. I would assume that this is another classic case where the media spins "being poor" as "being evil" but I probably don't take other, minor contributing factors into account.
It's not that I pledge for one side or another I just think power has the same characteristics everywhere.

Besides, the example of germany seems to show that even decades after the unification the part that previously worked under a planned economy still has major problems where the western part is doing fine.
IMO, everyone profits from the current status quo.
The US gets to directly dictate the economic, political and military policies of south korea wich in turn benefits from the foreign aid. And for just a few tons of rice every now and then the US and its affiliate corporations gain a powerless bogeyman that is not only good for slow news weeks but will also distract and rally the ignorant masses around the cause of increased military buildup and doubious foreign policy only matched by even more dubious domestic measures.

tl;dr

TV's bad for you, kids

[rossmum]

A reunification would do nothing good for Korea right now. Eventually, yes, but not overnight. Why? Think of the culture shock. NK has nothing. Most North Koreans don't even know that man's walked on the moon or about modern technology like the Internet or anything, they're kept completely in the dark. These people have basically been conditioned through the last several generations to worship KJI as a god and the West as evil. There was a thread on NK over on the SA forums and someone posted a link to this doco about foreign aid workers helping restore sight to some of the poorer North Koreans, and it was absolutely disgraceful just how brainwashed these people are. They have nothing at all, yet the first thing they see once their vision is restored is a massive portrait of their 'Dear Leader', and without being coerced or anything they just get up and start wailing and thanking him for their sight and proclaiming how they'll use it to help destroy the Great Satan and so on... I mean, it was really pathetic. Loving your country's leader is one thing but this was just wrong, the saddest part was that they seemed to genuinely believe what they were saying. This is a regime which throws you and your parents and your children into what amount to concentration camps if you so much as jokingly take the piss.

If you remove KJI, you create a power vacuum and the ensuing struggle to take over between his officers will probably destabilise the region even further at best. If you invade, there's no telling how NK will react; in any case the US itself predicted that in the case of a second invasion of the South, the average US serviceman in the ROK has about eight minutes to live. We're not talking angry, misguided kids with guns here. We're talking a standing army of over a million, one of the largest in the world. They may not be the best trained or best disciplined in battle, but their sheer weight of numbers and fervent tenacity means they could probably hold their own against double their number of American, Chinese, or Russian troops. Nuclear attacks are out of the question as NK will retaliate in kind without a second thought and the fallout will affect Russia, China, Japan, and the ROK. US relations with Russia have never been all that great, but something like that would really be the killing blow. Sending in crack teams of saboteurs like the SAS would be absolute folly as even if you can get them inside the country, they're in an entirely hostile nation and if they miss so much as one nuke and NK figure out what's going on, there could be real trouble. For fuck's sake, we're talking about a country which is so terrible that US and ROK soldiers have to form a human chain when they call a meeting for fear of being snatched by the North Koreans and never seeing the light of day again.

The only real option is to wait cautiously, and keep the pressure up enough to dissuade any stupid heroics on their part but not enough to provoke them.

[TVTyrant]

TV's bad for you, kids
You forget sir, I am the TVTyrant.

I disagree that reunification wouldnt help, as I think it would definitely make the lives of the N.Koreans better, but Ross has a point about the propaganda thing.

[Phopojijo]

Well given his impoverished and politically isolated country he seems to be acting out of necessity rather than "cowardice". These moral notions may work for individual persons but they should have no buisness in politics.Not really impoverished... he has billions and billions of "foreign aid" that he spends on Cognac and public parades.

((the problem is he doesn't share with his people))

[PenGuin1362]

Observing the size of North Korea, the term "compensating for something" comes to mind.

[rossmum]

You forget sir, I am the TVTyrant.

I disagree that reunification wouldnt help, as I think it would definitely make the lives of the N.Koreans better, but Ross has a point about the propaganda thing.
Throw a bunch of people with nothing but a burning hatred of the West and their allies in with a bunch of people who are doing well for themselves and are allied with the US, and you're asking for trouble.

It can't happen overnight, and it shouldn't be expected to. The reunification process will take years even if KJI was removed or whatever.

[Ifafudafi]

North Korea is merely testing their limits at this point; they're trying to see how many UN regulations and reprimands they can disregard before they actually start facing serious consequences. While I'm not for blowing up their cities, simply saying "Yo! Don't do that!" just doesn't cut it anymore.

[rossmum]

Unfortunately that seems like all the UN is actually capable of doing these days. Letting people like KJI get away with ever-increasing boasts and threats is no better than what Chamberlain did in the 30s.

[rossmum]

UPDATE:

According to SBS, NK has proclaimed that it is no longer bound by the 1953 nonaggression treaty as it considers US/ROK searches of incoming ships to be an act of war. It's not the first time NK has made extremely provocative rhetoric and it's unlikely they'll actually do anything, but it's a worry all the same.

Still, it's comforting to know that they have literally no friends at all in Southeast Asia. If NK does anything stupid, they're surrounded on all sides by very angry countries with very powerful militaries, plus the US and ourselves.

[Bodzilla]

but if they do something where still looking at millions of lives lost if they get the nuclear shit going on :/

not comforting for me, but what the fuck do you do >_<

[rossmum]

As far as I know, they have nukes and missiles but not nukes on missiles; in any case I'm still not convinced they'd be dumb enough to use them unless nuked first.

[FRain]

And, not to mention most of their missiles SUCK. (the most recent ones have failed at their tests)

[rossmum]

Aren't they cheap ripoffs of the Topol series?

[FRain]

Probably, I haven't looked them up.

[thehoodedsmack]

Like Ross said in regards to their treaty defiance, looks like they're going for the bad-boy image right now.

"Fuck you, UN! I can do whatever I want! You're not my real dad!"

I wonder if KJI is crazy enough to send us some of his ill-spent relief money. Maybe if we write him a nice letter. With a crayon drawing or something.

[=sw=warlord]

UPDATE:

According to SBS, NK has proclaimed that it is no longer bound by the 1953 nonaggression treaty as it considers US/ROK searches of incoming ships to be an act of war. It's not the first time NK has made extremely provocative rhetoric and it's unlikely they'll actually do anything, but it's a worry all the same.

Still, it's comforting to know that they have literally no friends at all in Southeast Asia. If NK does anything stupid, they're surrounded on all sides by very angry countries with very powerful militaries, plus the US and ourselves.
They declared not just searches but also stopping of NK ships also to be considered a act of war.
And if i remember china are friends with North korea.
It's all on Sky news at the moment.

[rossmum]

I don't think China likes NK anymore. I know Russia sure as hell doesn't.

[Dwood]

I don't think China likes NK anymore. I know Russia sure as hell doesn't.

That's what you think, though. For all we know there are background talks between Russia and NK and China.

[Heathen]

don't we conduct nuclear tests?

[RecycleBin]

don't we conduct nuclear tests?

Yes we have, during WW2. We were the first country to develop nuclear weapons. I think the most recent one was in 1992.

[=sw=warlord]

don't we conduct nuclear tests?
Not since 1986 if i recall correctly, the US gov used to test nukes in higher atmosphere to see the effects on electrical equipment.
Those were the most latest US tests if i recall.

[Heathen]

last one was in 1992.
not that long ago.
16 years.

My point being, how can we tell them what not to do?
This is a genuine question, not a "DA US IS HIPPACRITZ"

[n00b1n8R]

Look at deese NK scrubs, punching so far above their weight.
You don't need nukes to have a place in the world, hth Mr Kim Jong Il

~middlepowers represent~

[sdavis117]

But Noob, he's so ronery.

Rle2-xCf6Sg

Also Kim is paranoid. He has put everything he has onto an abused people. Soon something is going to happen, someone is going to step up or someone is going to speak out against him, and he will be too slow to silence that person. With a nuke, he hopes to scare anyone hoping to speak out.

[rossmum]

That's what you think, though. For all we know there are background talks between Russia and NK and China.
Yes, I'm sure both China and Russia really want to try befriend a nation which is completely out of everyone else's control and is also bordering them both. That way, if NK provokes the US and gets the living shit nuked out of it, they can all share in the fallout.

[TVTyrant]

I dont think the United States would respond to a nuclear attack with another nuclear attack. That seems unreasonable, as it takes all the resources NK has to do anything at all. Instead the US would just have a draft and send all all the American young men there. And American young men are usually not very nice to people who attacked their country (look at the Pacific, WWI, and even Vietnam, although I dont believe America had any right to be there, it is an example of American military cruelty). We'd probably firebomb there capital at Pyongyang, destroy everything nuclear and military, and then let the SK military take it over. And then we'd leave.
As far as attacking another country goes, we'd probaly provide air support, but hopefully wouldn't send ground troops. These are just my theories on American military action if that should happen though.

[rossmum]

To be honest, with the way the world's going today, I'd be surprised if anyone bar NK would respond to a nuclear attack with another nuclear attack. Shit, the UN would probably just run a petition on whether to go from writing angry letters to writing really angry letters.

[sdavis117]

Fuck you guys and forcing the Team America references.

f0hk9vaqWUg

I think the UN would respond with more then just an angry letter if their inspectors were fed to sharks NK used nukes on another nation.

[TVTyrant]

To be honest, with the way the world's going today, I'd be surprised if anyone bar NK would respond to a nuclear attack with another nuclear attack. Shit, the UN would probably just run a petition on whether to go from writing angry letters to writing really angry letters.
Yo, thats why we got the America cops. Fuck those Fuck those niggas up Free those oppressed people living under a evil dictatorship.

E: Damnit Davis, stealing my ideas!!!!!!!!!

[sdavis117]

You just forced another one TV. Actually, that fits more the theme song then anything else.



Seriously, I think after Iraq we would be a little more weary, but America still has that "Do what we say or else" mentality.

YZdJRDpLHbw

[nooBBooze]

With a nuke, he hopes to scare anyone hoping to speak out.
lol wut
like he's going to nuke his own cities.

[=sw=warlord]

lol wut
like he's going to nuke his own cities.
Would be a good way to make himself look like a god to his people.
"speak out against me and i will wipe your town off the earth in a blink of an eye!"

[rossmum]

Why bother? They already worship him as one.

[thehoodedsmack]

They're still firing missiles, in case anyone's interested. (http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awEMk.6QiON4)

This makes six.

[rossmum]

China and Russia have just pretty much fucked them off from what I've heard



1:41 AM - butts: north korea is being so dumb that russia and china have actually called them dumb
1:42 AM - butts: and china said if they keep this up they're pulling the life support
1:42 AM - butts: life support being all the food
1:43 AM - butts: because north korea said because the us and uk want to search ships going in and out of their ports because of all the nuclear threats theyve been throwing around lately they are ending the korean treaty
1:43 AM - butts: so the korean war is back on
1:43 AM - butts: also russia is surprisingly for a new start for the country and world relations
1:43 AM - butts: i think putin is doing a good job
1:47 AM - MH434: kji is a colossal moron
1:47 AM - MH434: like
1:47 AM - MH434: i wouldn't leave him in charge of a pet rock
1:47 AM - MH434: let alone a country
1:47 AM - butts: i actually think hes dead
1:47 AM - butts: his last public appearance was about 4 months ago
1:47 AM - MH434: possible i guess
1:48 AM - MH434: well
1:48 AM - MH434: nk
1:48 AM - butts: and apparently he was sick looking
1:48 AM - MH434: incredible dumbs
1:48 AM - MH434: same thing
1:48 AM - butts: i think he died and theyre keeping it secret
1:48 AM - butts: and thats why they are fucking freaking out
1:48 AM - butts: and doing stupid shit like this
1:48 AM - butts: with the nuclear testing
1:48 AM - butts: and the threats to bomb soul
1:48 AM - butts: and now literally restarting the korean war
1:48 AM - MH434: they're gonna get stomped
1:48 AM - butts: yeah i know
1:49 AM - MH434: seriously they have no allies
1:49 AM - butts: china isnt gonna fuckin back them up
1:49 AM - MH434: zero
1:49 AM - butts: and russia seriously isnt
1:49 AM - butts: infact china is probably going to pull their lifeline soon
1:49 AM - butts: and it will be north korea vs the world
1:49 AM - butts: they can bomb the hell out of seoul since thats so close
1:49 AM - butts: but once thats over
1:49 AM - butts: what are they gonna do
1:49 AM - butts: they have no vehicles or anything
1:50 AM - butts: seoul is the best they can do since its so close to the border so they can just use their artillery cannons


Discussing it with my brosef at the moment, the point about KJI being dead actually makes a lot of sense

[TeeKup]

This may be a bad time, but I would really enjoy a Korean War video game, a good one mind you.

[rossmum]

Yeah, Korea is sadly neglected for games. The Falklands, too.

[n00b1n8R]

Jesus Christ, I just relised I was looking forward to NK getting the shit kicked out of it.

What the fuck, when did I become so totalitarian >____>

[nooBBooze]

Jesus Christ, I just relised I was looking forward to NK getting the shit kicked out of it.

What the fuck, when did I become so totalitarian >____>
That is the power of the media my friend.
Took some courses on it this semester.
Shit sux.

[itszutak]

It also doesn't help that NK's not done much to improve its image or even attempt a positive image. Nobody really likes them to start, this is just making matters worse.

[rossmum]

That is the power of the media my friend.
Took some courses on it this semester.
Shit sux.
The media is indeed biased as all hell, but that doesn't make NK any less deserving of a thorough arse-kicking. They have what amount to concentration camps within sight of the Russian border, dude.

[TVTyrant]

I want to know where the information on NK's life-support being pulled came from. I find it highly unlikely...

[rossmum]

Not sure, but he doesn't usually say things unless he's quite sure of himself. Either way, we may find out soon.

[Mr Buckshot]

attempt a positive image.

Hilariously, they officially call themselves the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Always wondered why 0_O

[rossmum]

Communist stuff always (supposedly) belongs to the people, and some of them like to think they're democratic because that would make them legit.