Assassin's Creed 2 Internet Connection DRM

[Jean-Luc]

The fuck is this shit (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98396-Ubisoft-Online-DRM-Its-Worse-Than-Expected)

WHAT. THE. FUCK. UBISOFT?

You guys used to be cool :saddowns:


It looks like Ubisoft's new online DRM scheme is going to be even worse than we thought: Gamers will need a constant internet connection to play Assassin's Creed 2 (http://assassinscreed.uk.ubi.com/assassins-creed-2/) on the PC and if it drops, so does the game.
Ubisoft announced in January that as part of its ongoing effort against piracy, all of its future PC releases would require gamers to connect to the internet (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/97778-Ubisoft-Details-New-Anti-Piracy-Plan%3Cbr%20/%3E) and log in to Ubi.com (http://www.ubi.com/) in order to play. Trying to sell the scheme as a positive move for gamers, the publisher pointed out that it would allow players to install their games on an unlimited number of PCs and access their saved games from any of them, because saves would be stored remotely. "We think most people are going to be fine with it," Ubisoft's Brent Wilkinson said. "Most people are always connected to an Internet connection."
Unfortunately, it appears as though it won't be quite that simple. As PC Gamer (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235290&site=pcg) discovered during its recent look at the PC version of Assassin's Creed 2, you'll not only have to connect to Ubisoft servers to start the game, you'll also have to stay connected while you play. And woe betide anyone whose connection happens to crap out while they're playing: If it does, the game will drop out to the main menu and any progress made since the last save or checkpoint is lost.
Oh, and if Ubisoft's servers hiccup momentarily while you're playing? Same deal.
It's bad enough that PC gamers won't be able to start their games if Ubisoft happens to have its servers down for a few hours for maintenance, but to be kicked out of games and lose progress because of it? Or because a router is accidentally unplugged or an ISP goes down for a couple of minutes? It's utterly mind-boggling, and absolutely inexcusable. Does Ubisoft really think that gamers are going to be "fine" with that?

[L0d3x]

Well aren't you just a sweary marry...

[flibitijibibo]

5 points for not using SecuROM like last time.

10 points off for finding a system that's just as shitty. It may not shred hard drives everywhere, but good lord.

Thank heavens I have no money anyway.

Edit: Just showed this to my gf, just to see what would happen:
[19:26:42] Me: ... oh my god
[19:26:50] Her: ?
[19:26:51] Me: i think i found a drm system that's as bad as securom
[19:26:56] Me: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.175939-Ubisoft-Online-DRM-Its-Worse-Than-Expected
[19:29:14] Her: ...........
[19:29:32] Her: seriously?
[19:29:41] Me: i wish it weren't
[19:32:12] Her: what about the people who legally bought the game? did they just decide not to think about them?
[19:33:21] Me: you just quoted every forum's first reply to such policies ever

See that, Ubisoft? It's called...

Common

fucking

sense.

[rossmum]

I like how they've basically introduced a less effective, less useful and less likeable version of Steam rather than use the real thing

[sdavis117]

Honestly, I can see this as Ubisofts excuse to quit the PC gaming industry. Instead of taking the time to combat piracy, they put in these systems that probably won't stop a single pirate. Then they can blame pirates when they exit PC gaming completely, instead exclusively releasing their games on platforms where higher prices, paid DLC, and controlled communities are the norm.

I mean I bet you EVERY form of DRM will stop the same amount of Pirates: Zero. I bet you ACII(PC) will be on Pirate Bay before it even hits store shelves.

[Cortexian]

Oh for fucks sake Ubisoft, do they not realize that pirates will just crack the DRM protection so it doesn't call home and saves games locally instead? This won't stop pirates at all, it's just going to make legitimate users that much more pissed off. I often played Assassins Creed when I had no internet connection because it was a single player ONLY game that didn't require any kind of internet connection, I was hoping to take Assassins Creed II with me when we go on our cruise later this year for something to play on my laptop in Hotels/downtime at sea.

Thanks a fucking lot Ubisoft.

[Inferno]

By trying to stop piracy. They just lost a sale. The only time I play the original AC is when my internet is down or I'm really bored.

Can't wait for the batch installer of this game.

[k4is3rxkh40s]

I mean I bet you EVERY form of DRM will stop the same amount of Pirates: Zero. I bet you ACII(PC) will be on Pirate Bay before it even hits store shelves.

It's funny that you say that, because it seems that every "major" release of the past few months has been up for download usually a week or more earlier than release. Sad thing is that it'll probably sell well enough(*cough* MW2 *cough*); giving them and the gaming industry in general the idea that everyone likes a good, swift kick in the groin.

[paladin]

Meh, it wasnt the best game anyways. Also, xbox ftw... :3

[Jean-Luc]

Meh, it wasnt the best game anyways. Also, xbox ftw... :3
It's not Assassin's Creed 2 I'm concerned about....*glances at Splinter Cell: Conviction and Beyond Good & Evil 2*

D:

[rossmum]

It's funny that you say that, because it seems that every "major" release of the past few months has been up for download usually a week or more earlier than release. Sad thing is that it'll probably sell well enough(*cough* MW2 *cough*); giving them and the gaming industry in general the idea that everyone likes a good, swift kick in the groin.
Aside from it being another cookie-cutter twitch shooter, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with MW2. There is, however, something fundamentally wrong with the PC gaming community in that they consider themselves superior to console gamers and therefore will absolutely do their collective nut if a feature even vaguely resembling those seen on consoles is introduced.

Either way, the more the hardcore fanboys get fucked, the better. Meanwhile, I'll sit here and play my real games. You know, ones which actually stand out, and where the devs actually put a lot of love and effort into them.

[n00b1n8R]

Either way, the more the hardcore fanboys get fucked, the better. Meanwhile, I'll sit here and play my real games. You know, ones which actually stand out, and where the devs actually put a lot of love and effort into them.
Aren't those the games most likely to develop the dedicated fanboys but? not just the ones who jump on it because it's popular but that jump on it because it's genuinely awesome.

vOv

(can we all move on from the COD:4:2 matchmaking thing btw? I like shitfests at much as the next guy but enough's enough)

[rossmum]

Nah, they generally turn out to be cult hits rather than just flat-out hits.

[k4is3rxkh40s]

Aside from it being another cookie-cutter twitch shooter, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with MW2. There is, however, something fundamentally wrong with the PC gaming community in that they consider themselves superior to console gamers and therefore will absolutely do their collective nut if a feature even vaguely resembling those seen on consoles is introduced.




(can we all move on from the COD:4:2 matchmaking thing btw? I like shitfests at much as the next guy but enough's enough)

I wasn't meaning to bag on the game so much as this whole deal...
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/kotaku/2009/11/1258035395841.jpg

[rossmum]

look a collection of stupid people

what's your point

[Bodzilla]

ross this aint acceptable.

[=sw=warlord]

ross this aint acceptable.
Apparently neither was the whole dedicated server issue but that turned out to be nothing but hot air.

[Jean-Luc]

Apparently neither was the whole dedicated server issue but that turned out to be nothing but hot air.
This is literally 50x worse than a lack of dedicated servers. While annoying, THAT issue wasn't game-crippling.

Forcing players to have a 100% perfect internet connection while playing a singleplayer game is downright insulting and physically unattainable for many people (looking at you Australia), myself included. This means, quite literally, that if your connection is interrupted for any reason, or the Ubisoft servers go down for maintenance, you essentially have lost your right to play the game and it will kick you out.

That. is. bullshit.

[flibitijibibo]

As far as I'm concerned, this is just more time spent on TF2. If they're so set on not selling games to me, that's their choice. Same with BioShock 2 and every other failed experiment like this.

[Dwood]

Problem is, a lot of the experiments still sell rather well. i think the devs are trying to get people to play on console versions rather than pc anyways tbqh.

[paladin]

Problem is, a lot of the experiments still sell rather well. i think the devs are trying to get people to play on console versions rather than pc anyways tbqh.

this

[Kornman00]

I wonder what their EULA is like

Someone could probably get a lawsuit on them once their game is interrupted if it isn't worded right. What about the future? Are they going to turn this and future games into an Xbox1 XBL ordeal? PC games don't get supported forever, and when their online shit changes, I doubt they'll make a patch to keep this game talking the same language as home base.

It's this kind of stuff that makes me want to support pirates. Grow some fucking balls Ubisoft. You could have spent that money developing this on a new retro-like Splinter Cell game :|

And it would sell better.

[rossmum]

major publishers retarded

more at six

[=sw=warlord]

This is literally 50x worse than a lack of dedicated servers. While annoying, THAT issue wasn't game-crippling.

You would have a valid point if it weren't for the fact the software dosn't determine connection status, so technicly your internet connection is more game crippling to the experience than the implementation.
While it may be annoying at worst there really isn't an aweful lot the consumer can do other than boycot the product and we all know how well those work.
The software isn't baught per say it's licenced so having a rage fit over the licence detail's isnt really going to work as they'l just see it you trying to haggle them out of their comfort seat.
either buy the software or not, either way unless you plan on doing something that will have a higher chance of effectiveness at getting a response then the only advice i could give would be "sit down and shut up, oh and who's next in line?"

Forcing players to have a 100% perfect internet connection while playing a singleplayer game is downright insulting and physically unattainable for many people (looking at you Australia), myself included. This means, quite literally, that if your connection is interrupted for any reason, or the Ubisoft servers go down for maintenance, you essentially have lost your right to play the game and it will kick you out.

That. is. bullshit.

all im seeing is "baww the nasty evil game's makers/publishers want me to jump through one extra loop for a game that they just worked for 3 years on baww."
This thing is no different to the stuff on the xbox with live arcade games, unless your on xbox live you can't play games on a different profile to what you purchased the game for.

[rossmum]

Yeah uh this means that if your net drops you can't play the game on any profile, bit of a difference there

[=sw=warlord]

Yeah uh this means that if your net drops you can't play the game on any profile, bit of a difference there
Same with the xbox then.
I've had same issue with live arcade titles on other profiles and the connection has cut out and booted me from the game to dashboard.
Halowars also has a simular issue with saved games in campaign, lost count how many times trying to beat arcadia on legendary and got booted because of the internet connection.

[StankBacon]

all im seeing is "baww the nasty evil game's makers/publishers want me to jump through one extra loop for a game that they just worked for 3 years on baww."



:|

[Jean-Luc]

Same with the xbox then.
I've had same issue with live arcade titles on other profiles and the connection has cut out and booted me from the game to dashboard.
Halowars also has a simular issue with saved games in campaign, lost count how many times trying to beat arcadia on legendary and got booted because of the internet connection.
You're acting like that's okay. You bought the software, you're supposed to be able to choose when and how you want to play it. I sometimes play games on Steam in offline mode because I don't want to be bothered and I should have the right to do so.

I have a wireless connection that, while generally stable, occasionally craps out on me. How happy do you think I'll be if the game punishes me for something entirely out of my control?

[=sw=warlord]

You're acting like that's okay. You bought the software, you're supposed to be able to choose when and how you want to play it. I sometimes play games on Steam in offline mode because I don't want to be bothered and I should have the right to do so.


The software isn't bought per say it's licenced :eyesroll:

source: EULA for Halo, Doom 3 and pretty much every other game out there for pc.

Software PRODUCT LICENSE
The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties, as well as other intellectual property laws and treaties. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed, not sold.
But go on, come back with another point, hopefully this one won't be half baked.
I keep getting a horrible taste from people's half baked under educated complaints especialy when they don't even realise that software is licenced not bought.

[rossmum]

what the fuck is the difference

if they want games to sell maybe they should spend less time and money on stupid forms of drm that are either a) invasive or b) abhorrently inconvenient and then put that into actually making good, original games people want to play

just because it's not sold in legal terms it doesn't mean we should sit here and be cool with getting fucked over. won't be buying this.

e/ warlord your argument seems to be essentially the 'fuck you, got mine' of gaming since your internet is probably infinitely better than mine, which drops out several times a day for hours on end and with no warning

but that's ok i guess, as long as it works for you and a few thousand other people who cares about the rest of us

[Jean-Luc]

But go on, come back with another point, hopefully this one won't be half baked.
I keep getting a horrible taste from people's half baked under educated complaints especialy when they don't even realise that software is licenced not bought.
And yet when you purchase a "license," you're purchasing the rights to use the software for your own purposes. For example, I could purchase a copy of 3dsmax 2010. If I'm licensed to use the product, Autodesk has no bearing on what I do with the program or at what time. Nowhere in these EULA's (that I'm aware of) does it say the developer can tell you when and how to use something you legally bought a license for.

Would you let someone tell you when you can watch your favorite movie? Would you let someone tell you when you're allowed to play _______ on your Xbox? Bullshit, of course you wouldn't. And I'm not going to let Ubisoft tell me that unless my internet connection is perfect (which it's not), I can't play their game.

[=sw=warlord]

what the fuck is the difference

if they want games to sell maybe they should spend less time and money on stupid forms of drm that are either a) invasive or b) abhorrently inconvenient and then put that into actually making good, original games people want to play
Im sure if you gave them a very well explained and profitable method or system of DRM they would actualy look over it but so far all anyone has done is bitched whined and moaned.
just because it's not sold in legal terms it doesn't mean we should sit here and be cool with getting fucked over. won't be buying this.
Fine don't buy it, get enough people to not buy it and see what happens.

e/ warlord your argument seems to be essentially the 'fuck you, got mine' of gaming since your internet is probably infinitely better than mine, which drops out several times a day for hours on end and with no warning
Same with my internet, im just not naive enough to bitch whine moan all day thinking it does fuck all but make a loud noise.

but that's ok i guess, as long as it works for you and a few thousand other people who cares about the rest of us
you could not even begin to know how naive and ignorant you came off with that comment

Bottom line is, i don't like some of these systems than anyone else but i also realise theres fuck all i can do about it.
It's a case of buy it or don't buy it don't fucking pussyfoot about umm-ing and errr-ing make your mind up and stick with it just don't keep bandgering on making everything as comical as a circus act.



And yet when you purchase a "license," you're purchasing the rights to use the software for your own purposes. For example, I could purchase a copy of 3dsmax 2010. If I'm licensed to use the product, Autodesk has no bearing on what I do with the program or at what time. Nowhere in these EULA's (that I'm aware of) does it say the developer can tell you when and how to use something you legally bought a license for.
you ever looked under termination in the EULA's?
In halo this is what is printed And i quote:
"· Termination. Without prejudice to any other rights, Gearbox may terminate this EULA if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and all of its component parts."

Would you let someone tell you when you can watch your favorite movie? Would you let someone tell you when you're allowed to play _______ on your Xbox? Bullshit, of course you wouldn't. And I'm not going to let Ubisoft tell me that unless my internet connection is perfect (which it's not), I can't play their game.
Funny that, there are some laws that correlate to directly that, for instance watching a film at a cinema, you are told when you can watch the film and that is the only time.
By the logic you suggested i should beable to buy a cinema ticket and then watch the film when ever i like.

[StankBacon]

what in gods name are you blathering about.

[flibitijibibo]

Hey warlord, here's something you can do about it: Don't piss your money away on this game. Did it ever come to mind that you don't have to buy their shit if you don't want to? Or is some big bad evil monster sitting away in your closet forcing you to?

I mentioned this in my BioShock 2 whining, and I'll say it again: If you don't give the idea money, it will not continue. That's all publishers will see in anything, so we may as well work with it.

[FRain]

My brother taught me this ^.

If you don't like something, dont fund them to make more by buying them. If you already know its bad, don't buy it. Okay, maybe if its your first time thats something different as there will be some people like "whats this, this looks cool" but jesus christ you already knew so dont buy it.

[Dwood]

Problem is, a lot of the experiments still sell rather well.

Also, i think the devs are trying to get people to play on console versions rather than pc anyways tbqh.

1st off: Not even 3ds MAX or ANY Adobe product requires a scheme like this. I'm 100% sure that those companies producing said products had such an idea glance over their minds... (edit) And yet they still decided NOT to have such a scheme.

2nd- What makes Assassin's Creed so valuable to require a scheme like this? I say there is absolutely nothing that should ever require a scheme like this.

3rd- With the above in mind, the post probable conclusion comes up to the same one that's in my quote- Ubi is trying to get people to buy the console versions of their products.

There is no profitable reason to be doing such a DRM scheme (I can say that I absolutely, in any way, shape, or form, cannot justify purchasing this game as currently my main computer has Zero Internet hooked up to it)

There is another, ulterior motive to this scheme than just protecting their IP. I can guarantee that much. Therefore, I won't/can't justify a purchase of any Ubisoft or Activision game (knowingly) so long as this scheme is in their heads. [Activision because of the whole 3-disk starcraft game set, among other things lolol]

Thank you, for depriving me of a fun gaming experience Ubisoft, thank you.

[=sw=warlord]

Hey warlord, here's something you can do about it: Don't piss your money away on this game. Did it ever come to mind that you don't have to buy their shit if you don't want to? Or is some big bad evil monster sitting away in your closet forcing you to?
I think your reffering to the wrong person, i never mentioned any intent on buying the game at all, all i did was point out how futile it is to complain all day long under the mistake of thinking you "own" the game.
I mentioned this in my BioShock 2 whining, and I'll say it again: If you don't give the idea money, it will not continue. That's all publishers will see in anything, so we may as well work with it.
Congrat's you managed to say what i've said in my own posts.

.

[Jean-Luc]

how futile it is to complain all day long under the mistake of thinking you "own" the game.
I don't own the rights to the IP, I own the rights to play the fucking thing. The developers have no business infringing my rights to play the game by requiring a constant internet connection, especially for a singleplayer game.

[=sw=warlord]

I don't own the rights to the IP, I own the rights to play the fucking thing. The developers have no business infringing my rights to play the game by requiring a constant internet connection, especially for a singleplayer game.
Again you seem to be missing my point, i understand what your saying but your ignoring you have to agree to their licence agreement and if that involves you requiring internet connection then so be it.
I've already said this once so il say it once more; Come up with a better solution for DRM form that would seem profitable to ubisofts eyes or hush.

Personaly i think if something was that bad of a mistake the company will learn their lesson either that or you will just end up like whats happened with the Halo franchise on PC and just not see any come out for the pc format.

[Rook]

>boycott all games except for valve titles

[Dwood]

>boycott all games except for

CORRECTION (http://www.stardock.com/)

[il Duce Primo]

How is that even a right? You bought a game that works only when connected to the internet. When did they have to make games that don't? It's nice to have games like that but that isn't a right.

[paladin]

just because it's not sold in legal terms it doesn't mean we should sit here and be cool with getting fucked over. won't be buying this.


Dont buy and gtf over it.


>boycott all games except for valve titles

This.


How is that even a right? You bought a game that works only when connected to the internet. When did they have to make games that don't? It's nice to have games like that but that isn't a right.

This again.

No one is forcing you to buy this. If you dont like, dont buy it. Its that simple.

[FRain]

I've already said this once so il say it once more; Come up with a better solution for DRM form that would seem profitable to ubisofts eyes or hush.



Wow. If you find a huge piece of bat shit in the middle of your sammich, you'll not complain about it until you find another alternative to batshit. You're implying that eating batshit is okay by any means. Go ahead and eat your batshit sammich.

[Dwood]

Don't buy it people.

[flibitijibibo]

Don't let this bitch be another MW2/BioShock 2/GenericgamewithSecuROMthatstillsellsmillionsanyway here.

[paladin]

MW2...

1403

Bioshock 2...

1403

Assassins Creed 2...

1403

Why is it better on PC then xbox again?

[Limited]

This is ludicrous. What happens if I have a great laptop, and going to be on a long train journey, and want to play it on the move? What happens if someone lives in the mountains and doesnt have a net connection, but still likes to play games? And the fact that its, if you lose connection DURING the game, it quits instantly, so its not just "you need to be connected JUST to start the game", you need to be connected for the whole period your playing.

Talk about limiting usability, jeez, its unbelievable. The worrying factor is the game will still sell, and Ubisoft are likely to be like, "well it hasnt effected us too much, lets do it to every new game".

And to think I was actually going to buy the game for PC.

[343guiltymc]

Wtf, I thought this whole DRM debacle was over already............

[paladin]

Every game that comes out on PC from now on will have a thread like this.

You can quote me on that if you want.

[Kornman00]

What about the men and women in uniform (read: in the military) who have to get deployed to remote locations, most of which are hostile fire zones?

Yeah, way to show your "patriotism" Ubisoft :eyesroll:


(that last part is half sarcasm, but the point isn't)

[flibitijibibo]

Wtf, I thought this whole DRM debacle was over already............
Ha. Haha. Right.

Every game that comes out on PC from now on will have a thread like this.

You can quote me on that if you want.
I wish I could disagree. At least it's happening when I don't have that much money anyway.

What about the men and women in uniform (read: in the military) who have to get deployed to remote locations, most of which are hostile fire zones?

Yeah, way to show your "patriotism" Ubisoft :eyesroll:


(that last part is half sarcasm, but the point isn't)
Oh, what a bitch that would be. I will admit, the situation that went in my head was kind of funny:
"Haha, prepare to eat shit Al-na--"
*BANG*
"Oh, FUCK!"
*Minutes later, victorious. He stares at his screen*
"Oh, FUCK."

[jcap]

Every game that comes out on PC from now on will have a thread like this.

You can quote me on that if you want.
Shattered Horizon just came out and it's DRM-free (I know Steam is by definition DRM, but it's not the "bad DRM" we all know.)

It's only the obsessive compulsive morons who don't understand that absolutely nothing they do will prevent piracy. What bothers me most is how they constantly point out PC piracy, but they NEVER discuss console piracy.

[Cortexian]

What bothers me most is how they constantly point out PC piracy, but they NEVER discuss console piracy.
The percentage of PC piracy dwarfs console piracy so they don't really care at this point.

[paladin]

Inorite. i know a guy who has every xbox 360 on his HDD... seriously

[LinkandKvel]

what the fuck is the difference

if they want games to sell maybe they should spend less time and money on stupid forms of drm that are either a) invasive or b) abhorrently inconvenient and then put that into actually making good, original games people want to play

just because it's not sold in legal terms it doesn't mean we should sit here and be cool with getting fucked over. won't be buying this.

e/ warlord your argument seems to be essentially the 'fuck you, got mine' of gaming since your internet is probably infinitely better than mine, which drops out several times a day for hours on end and with no warning

but that's ok i guess, as long as it works for you and a few thousand other people who cares about the rest of us

Well why don't you try to make a well thought out letter that states a new DRM policy that will not greatly effect sales, be convenient for the gamers, and all at the same time reducing piracy, and get plenty of people to support it and bring it to ubisoft's attention rather than posting on a semi-small forum and making sarcastic remarks about other people's views about the subject? Which sounds better to you?


What about the men and women in uniform (read: in the military) who have to get deployed to remote locations, most of which are hostile fire zones?

Yeah, way to show your "patriotism" Ubisoft :eyesroll:


(that last part is half sarcasm, but the point isn't)

If that's the case then I'm pretty sure those soldiers should be worried about more than if they're gonna be able to play AC2 there or not. I understand to ease their troubles, but i never heard of an unappreciative soldier. You can't be picky about what games to play when your life's on the line everyday.

[Jean-Luc]

Well why don't you try to make a well thought out letter that states a new DRM policy that will not greatly effect sales, be convenient for the gamers, and all at the same time reducing piracy, and get plenty of people to support it and bring it to ubisoft's attention rather than posting on a semi-small forum and making sarcastic remarks about other people's views about the subject? Which sounds better to you?
It's called Steam and it's been doing just fine for years.

There is nothing about Ubisoft's DRM scheme that is beneficial to the consumer. In fact, it has been proven time and time again that restrictive DRM only hurts the paying customer and makes piracy more appealing.

[LinkandKvel]

It's called Steam and it's been doing just fine for years.

There is nothing about Ubisoft's DRM scheme that is beneficial to the consumer. In fact, it has been proven time and time again that restrictive DRM only hurts the paying customer and makes piracy more appealing.

Well maybe there's a problem within Ubisoft that restricts them from using steam. There are countless underlying problems and deals that the public doesn't know about that goes on within companies. There is no way you can really claim they are doing this to purposely shift to consoles or anything because the people simply have no proof. At least they're TRYING and doing the best to implement a new system rather than just sitting there and applying normal procedures. Excuse me if I support them for even having the generosity to make it compatible for PC play even though they're aware of the possible amount of money they can lose. They're actually brave to be trying this.

[Jean-Luc]

Excuse me if I support them for even having the generosity to make it compatible for PC play even though they're aware of the possible amount of money they can lose. They're actually brave to be trying this.
I'm all for trying something new but you're living in an idealistic world here. The DRM Ubisoft is planning to use is nothing short of draconian, and the ONLY person it hurts is the paying customer. Pirates end up with the better version of the game and sales will suffer for this. They're not being brave; they're just being idiots.

[=sw=warlord]

I'm all for trying something new but you're living in an idealistic world here. The DRM Ubisoft is planning to use is nothing short of draconian, and the ONLY person it hurts is the paying customer. Pirates end up with the better version of the game and sales will suffer for this. They're not being brave; they're just being idiots.
This DRM is no where near as bad as Securom, pick your poison and if you don't agree then don't fucking buy it.
Seriously what is so fucking hard to understand?
Want to play the game and agree to their terms then buy the game dont agree then don't buy it, pretty damned simple.

[Jean-Luc]

This DRM is no where near as bad as Securom, pick your poison and if you don't agree then don't fucking buy it.
Seriously what is so fucking hard to understand?
Want to play the game and agree to their terms then buy the game dont agree then don't buy it, pretty damned simple.
Even though I'd rather it didn't exist, I've never had a problem with SecuRom on my computer; this is easily the worst DRM I've ever seen and it's completely unfair and again, the only person it punishes is the person who legally purchased the game. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You keep saying "If you don't like it, don't buy it" but all you're doing is sitting back and letting publishers/developers fuck the customer over whenever they want.

I've never seen DRM have a positive effect on sales or a reduction in piracy yet despite all their failed efforts they keep working to continually treat the customers like criminals. Same shit goes for DVD's. I don't need an anti-piracy advertisement on a DVD I legally bought. There is no justifiable reason to assault the legal purchasers with DRM while pirates get the superior version of the game. None.

[Limited]

The whole "Don't like it, don't buy it" attitude doesnt excuse its a crappy system. Do you really agree warlord that you should limited to the fact you need to be connected to the internet to play the game?

I understand your only buying a license to the game, they still have full control, but we can still disagree with it.

[=sw=warlord]

The whole "Don't like it, don't buy it" attitude doesnt excuse its a crappy system. Do you really agree warlord that you should limited to the fact you need to be connected to the internet to play the game?

I understand your only buying a license to the game, they still have full control, but we can still disagree with it.
Yeah and if you disagree with it then you won't buy it.
If enough people disagree and not buy the software they will look into alternative methods.
Enough people shouted about MW2 to make aires rock vibrate but when it was released any and all credientials those skeptics had was lost when 80% of them purchased the game even when they had said they would not.
The only way the publishers will listen is if you hit them in the pocket, actions speak louder than words unfortunitly.
Who here has bitched about securoms draconian methods and who here will avoid any and all games that host securom games, now compare the securom method to this and tell me which is more physicaly damaging.

[Limited]

If you have a legit copy, securom can be used wherever. I dont like the way it works. Why should it be SecuROM vs This DRM? We shouldnt have to agree with ignorant methods of DRM. This DRM limits usability, it is a slap in the face for people who dont have the internet on a regular bases. I dont like the fact, I will be required to always be connected.

[jcap]

Limited is right, the whole "don't like it, don't buy it" mentality doesn't work. It will never work. You are always going to have people buy the game. There's those who don't know of the problems, those who don't think they're at risk, and those who are willing to do anything to just play the game. The last crowd is the one I want to isolate, though.

There's some people who only play PC games and they have no alternative. Not everyone owns or has the need for a console just so they can play one game that they were really, really looking forward to. In that case, it's either settle for nothing or settle for a DRM-crippled game. The first option is usually discarded by someone who is desperate because the extreme want to play it covers up the long-term consequences and problems. It's all because of want and hype.

What I'm saying here is that they know they have a product that you want, otherwise they wouldn't be releasing it. So, they want to screw you over as much as they can, because they know you will buy it, especially if you've been waiting since the console release to play it. You aren't going to have people sitting out like "OH YEAH, WE'LL REALLY SHOW THEM!" because if you did, you would never play a single game in your life. Yes, it is OUT FAULTS for letting it happen, because we are in the position to give them our money. But again, my point is that you're left with playing it and coping with something detrimental, or not playing it at all. Most will simply forget about the DRM and play...until it actually causes problems.

[=sw=warlord]

Jcap do you honestly think companies will spend thousands on intentionaly "crippling" their own software?

[Jean-Luc]

Jcap do you honestly think companies will spend thousands on intentionaly "crippling" their own software?
They may not be doing it intentionally, but they ARE doing it. When was the last "restrictive" DRM a benefit to anyone?

[jcap]

Jcap do you honestly think companies will spend thousands on intentionaly "crippling" their own software?
Think? Oh, it's not just thinking. It's what they are doing.

[=sw=warlord]

They may not be doing it intentionally, but they ARE doing it. When was the last "restrictive" DRM a benefit to anyone?
This morning actualy, had Steam download a few games since i've had to reinstall parents pc.
Steam in it self is a form as a DRM as you lot said yourselves.


Think? Oh, it's not just thinking. It's what they are doing.
Wow...any company has its main target of getting INCOME not spending on unprofitable methods.
If you seriously believe they'l waste that much money for for kicks and gigles i suggest you look into therapy.
Any sane person shold be able to realise that the main objective is for profit not just fucking the average joe over.

[flibitijibibo]

warlord, spend a few days in a major corporation and you'll realize that those two things are synonymous in the business world.

Companies like Valve are so rare because they take risks, risks being sales and the time they take out to make sure their products aren't shit (their games, Steam, etc.). They probably spend a lot of money on these things, and I'd guess that their sale increases are only balancing it out. Most companies aren't willing to take risks, and they'd rather just go with the bare minimum and charge as if they did work.

This is where I'll say jcap is right in all but one thing: It's doubtful they're spending that much money on this shit. If they were, they'd hire engineers that had problem solving skills greater than that of a chimp with a broken TI-83.

Edit: Also, not to sound like some jock-sniffing bro, but anyone who's so desperate to play a single game (one that's not guaranteed to be good) that they're willing to break their computers/bow to their corporate masters needs an intervention and shock therapy to help them better cope with the fact that they're complete fucking losers. At least when the snorting blobs known as WoW players shell out $15 a month for a single game, it's actually contributing to something good for them (expansions, patches, shit like that).

[paladin]

Limited is right, the whole "don't like it, don't buy it" mentality doesn't work. It will never work. You are always going to have people buy the game.

Actually, it will. You guys are thinking a much larger scale than what you need to be.


The whole "Don't like it, don't buy it" attitude doesnt excuse its a crappy system. Do you really agree warlord that you should limited to the fact you need to be connected to the internet to play the game?

I understand your only buying a license to the game, they still have full control, but we can still disagree with it.

No it doesn't, but as in any business, would you buy a product your not satisfied with. Would you buy a car that doesn't work? Again, you guys are taking this was out of proportion and it does simply come down to that, as a consumer, if your not satisfied with a product, don't buy it.

As a developer, they have full right to produce the game as they see fit. If that means you need an internet connection, well you better have one. Would you buy a lawn mower when you don't have a lawn to mow? You guys need to chill out and remember, it's just a game and future titles that have similar DRM and SecuROM are just games.

[jcap]

If you were going car shopping, and the only one you could afford was used and had a dying transmission, would you say "FUCK IT, THEY CAN'T GIVE ME A BETTER CAR FOR LESS SO I WON'T BUY IT!!!"? Or would you buy it because your desire to have one much overshadows the transmission problem that will come back to haunt you a few years down the line?

And exactly what "smaller scale" are you talking about? Please explain how they will get the message even though they are making millions of sales.

[paladin]

Id say, buy a buss pass and save until you can afford a nicer car.

The point is, you or anyone else being butt hurt is not going to change what happens. Id think after at least MW2 you would realize this. I guess its just me and warlord that see that whining and complaining about something that won't change is a waste of time. I guess we have lives and better things to do.

[flibitijibibo]

Golly, I sure hope you aren't planning to go into the industry. I'd hate to have the future in hands like yours.

The only reason MW2 was a success is because people are pussies. They, much like you, are willing to give up on something important if it means they can get that sweet, sweet 8-10 hours of gameplay that wasn't even worth trashing your system/dignity over. If it weren't for weak, money burning cocks like you, maybe we'd have a chance at sending the message that DRM blows.

Also, not having a life is not synonymous with wanting a reasonable product. If that's the best you can come up with, I'm not impressed. Considering I have a life, and it happens to be within this industry, I'll complain all I jolly well please, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it (other than leave). Of course, if you attempt to rebut that statement, that will pretty much throw your previous post out the window, as you're attempting to change something that "will never change." So keep your high and mighty "better things to do" to yourself. Or, better yet, since it's supposedly so goddamn important, why aren't you doing that now? Why are you here, complaining about us complaining? If it's so sad to see us complaining, what does that make you?

[=sw=warlord]

Golly, I sure hope you aren't planning to go into the industry. I'd hate to have the future in hands like yours.
Would be much better than having someone who uses all words and no action.

The only reason MW2 was a success is because people are pussies. They, much like you, are willing to give up on something important if it means they can get that sweet, sweet 8-10 hours of gameplay that wasn't even worth trashing your system/dignity over. If it weren't for weak, money burning cocks like you, maybe we'd have a chance at sending the message that DRM blows.
The fact that i don't buy games unless it has a reasonable quaity and dosn't come with draconian DRM makes me a money burning cock? No, i just realise bitching like a child in a sweetshop will get me no where and instead actualy take my own words and back them up.
If i don't agree with the terms for a game i won't buy it simple but apparently some people here cannot understand the whole thing of patience.
If you want the game but you don't like the terms then tough shit to be quite honest, if you dont buy the software with the issues your sending a message where as your not if you keep buying the software even when you complain.

Also, not having a life is not synonymous with wanting a reasonable product. If that's the best you can come up with, I'm not impressed. Considering I have a life, and it happens to be within this industry, I'll complain all I jolly well please, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it (other than leave). Of course, if you attempt to rebut that statement, that will pretty much throw your previous post out the window, as you're attempting to change something that "will never change." So keep your high and mighty "better things to do" to yourself. Or, better yet, since it's supposedly so goddamn important, why aren't you doing that now? Why are you here, complaining about us complaining? If it's so sad to see us complaining, what does that make you?
Seriously, why do you people get so damned butthurt, even aerowyn didnt get that bad about L4D2.

[flibitijibibo]

all words and no action.Stopped reading there. I'm done reading your posts, you're either a troll or so damned stupid that I'd rather not take the time to explain to you why you're just wrong.

[LinkandKvel]

The point they're trying to make is if you guys really think this is wrong DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT THEN. Make a action plan to stop this DRM from going into effect. Whats you guys are doing now is simply complaining and if you believe doing something about it is not worth the effort than that reveals you truthfully could give two shits about it, which in turn says your complaints are meaningless right now,

[flibitijibibo]

Does not pumping money into the system not count?

(I suppose Pyong and his minions could DDoS the servers necessary to play AC2...)

(Oh, and killing the engineers responsible would work too. Considering it's Assassin's Creed, it might actually make a funny headline.)

[paladin]

Golly, I sure hope you aren't planning to go into the industry. I'd hate to have the future in hands like yours.

I dont plan on working in the game industry.

The only reason MW2 was a success is because people are pussies. They, much like you, are willing to give up on something important if it means they can get that sweet, sweet 8-10 hours of gameplay that wasn't even worth trashing your system/dignity over. If it weren't for weak, money burning cocks like you, maybe we'd have a chance at sending the message that DRM blows.

So I am a pussy for enjoying the game for as it is not how I wanted it? Ive logged probably over 7 days of mp playing time. Maybe if it werent for selfish, arrogant, butt-hurt, and didnt have a "do it this way or it sucks" attitude, you could enjoy games. Video games are not an entitlement, stop acting like it is. They dont have to be engineered how you think they need to be.

Also, not having a life is not synonymous with wanting a reasonable product. If that's the best you can come up with, I'm not impressed. Considering I have a life, and it happens to be within this industry, I'll complain all I jolly well please, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it (other than leave). Of course, if you attempt to rebut that statement, that will pretty much throw your previous post out the window, as you're attempting to change something that "will never change." So keep your high and mighty "better things to do" to yourself. Or, better yet, since it's supposedly so goddamn important, why aren't you doing that now? Why are you here, complaining about us complaining? If it's so sad to see us complaining, what does that make you?

The only thing I can say is good luck continuing your career in the industry with a bull shit attitude like that. Id love to see your boss's response to why you think he and the company that pays his salary should loose money because a small group of a-holes think their game sucks and needs to change.

Also, its a saturday morning. There is nothing else to do but sit and laugh at butt-hurt morons complain about shit.

[LinkandKvel]

Does not pumping money into the system not count?

(I suppose Pyong and his minions could DDoS the servers necessary to play AC2...)

(Oh, and killing the engineers responsible would work too. Considering it's Assassin's Creed, it might actually make a funny headline.)

You're one guy. Get a group large enough that the profit decrease will get noticeable.

[flibitijibibo]

Link: Yeah, I'm trying that too. Telling friends, bumping threads like this, etc. I still think the assassination idea is good though. XP

Paladin: The games are fine, having to trash my hard drive to do so is not. I'll admit, I really liked Arkham Asylum a lot, but the SecuROM attachment that led to the loss of a lot of my shit (link (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20131)) ensured that the game itself was not worth losing nearly 100GB of my stuff. Had I known that such a disaster could happen, I would have spent that money on something much safer. (For the record, I was not aware that SecuROM was on Arkham Asylum until that happened.)

So really, the only thing I'd be upset about with the company I'd work with is if they applied such DRM, and in that case, I would be printing out my resume to go somewhere else.

And are we really a small group? Google DRM, man, it's not just me and a couple of friends.

[=sw=warlord]

Stopped reading there. I'm done reading your posts, you're either a troll or so damned stupid that I'd rather not take the time to explain to you why you're just wrong.
Instead of shouting on a small web forum why don't you do something worth while, contact the publishers voice your concern to people who actualy have some say in the decision.
Apparently me and paladin are the only one's who can actualy see whats going on.
There's all these words being thrown about like boycott and rights and yet, apparently the people who can actualy back up their words are stupid or trolling?
I've already told you what i do my self when i dont agree with the terms and conditions so il quote it again just incase you missed it.

If i don't agree with the terms for a game i won't buy it simple but apparently some people here cannot understand the whole thing of patience.
The only one's here who are stupid are the ones blowing hot air and yet when the product is released will most likely still pay for the final product.
Read link's comment and you'l see exactly how stupid and blind you reallty are making yourselves look like.

[jcap]

The only one's here who are stupid are the ones blowing hot air and yet when the product is released will most likely still pay for the final product.
Read link's comment and you'l see exactly how stupid and blind you reallty are making yourselves look like.
The reason they are blowing hot air is because they want to buy it, but this is getting in the way. I already went over this. Thankfully, I decided to not wait for the PC version this time around and bought the 360 version upon release, so I don't need to make the tough decision of whether or not to "support" this, even though I strongly disagree and despise it.

Frankly, you are the one who is stupid and blind to this scenario. It's not just about "don't buy it."

Also, I don't understand your thing about "patience." How will sitting around and hoping this gets fixed get you anywhere?

[=sw=warlord]

The reason they are blowing hot air is because they want to buy it, but this is getting in the way.
Then write another fucking letter to the dev's like you did with H2V.
I already went over this. Thankfully, I decided to not wait for the PC version this time around and bought the 360 version upon release, so I don't need to make the tough decision of whether or not to "support" this, even though I strongly disagree and despise it.

Frankly, you are the one who is stupid and blind to scenario. It's not just about "don't buy it."
It really is simple as that, either you buy the product or you don't, it's pretty simple your just trying to over complicate something that shouldn't be complicated.

Also, I don't understand your thing about "patience." How will sitting around and hoping this gets fixed get you anywhere?
Oh im sorry, i thought on the pc you got patches for game's to fix or change certain features, i was mistaken and now realise that only happens on console games:allears:
All im going to say is there's always another alternative.
To be quite honest Jcap you've sounded off louder than most here and yet you seem to have missed the entire point i made, quit bitching on a small forum and communicate your worries to a group of people who actualy have some sort of a influence.

[jcap]

All im going to say is there's always another alternative.
To be quite honest Jcap you've sounded off louder than most here and yet you seem to have missed the entire point i made, quit bitching on a small forum and communicate your worries to a group of people who actualy have some sort of a influence.
And you missed the entire point I made.

Also, it's probably more effective to complain about it on forums than to write an email to the execs which they will never read. They don't understand our problems, otherwise they wouldn't be supporting it. By discussing about it in public, it gives Ubisoft and AC2 a lot more negative publicity.

[=sw=warlord]

And you missed the entire point I made.
No, your just ignorant.

[jcap]

Ignorant how? You're the one who has been disregarding everything I've said. You can't reason anywhere beyond "don't buy it", while I have brought up the broader picture.

But I guess you're too ignorant to see you're ignorant, therefore calling others ignorant. :v:

[flibitijibibo]

I'm going to assume whatever warlord has been posting was slathered with ignorance, so I'm going to just point this out:

1. BioShock 2/AC2 were definitely buys for me, as they look like really good games.
2. DRM made the product unsafe/unusable.
3. Despite the product inside being good, I cannot put the safety of my machines at risk for it. After all, they're just games. :downs:

I probably should have made that clearer in my earlier posts. So yeah, seconding jcap.

E: Oh, ninja'd by jcap. Guess I was right.

[paladin]

Man xbox's suck ass... I broke my disk and had to drive 2 miles to get it replaced. And omg dont get me started about the modders...

Every thread like this just makes me laugh at people who call me and other 'console fags'

[Bodzilla]

The sheer complacency from a few members of this forum is both frustrating and despairing.

It is you, the complacent and ignorant fools that will sell our values and rights down the drain.
Sitting back and never voicing outrage because you perceive it to have little or no difference (even if your right) Will never, ever change things for your benefit.

You want to accept anything because you feel you cant voice outrage or protest, or because you feel it's redundant, well,

your just another brick in the wall.

[paladin]

I voice my outrage when I have to. I just don't get upset over childish things such as whether or not I should purchase a video game. And since when do you have rights a gamer. Your only right is whether you open your wallet or not. Video games aren't civil liberties, stop acting like Ubisoft is stopping all over them. Just because YOU are unhappy with how the game is engineered, doesn't every other person needs to.

And Id hardly call me, or warlord another brick in the wall when you and various other members are leading the communist revolution of the world. You call me complacent and ignorant, when your too arrogant to realize how selfish and childish your acting. Your acting like the worlds going to end if a video game can't be played offline. OMG its midnight!

[flibitijibibo]

Paragraph 1: What, are you actually happy about this system? I have yet to find one person that would buy a game knowing such a system exists. The game itself? Sure. Ubi.com's neediness? Fuck no. Also, it's not about civil liberties. This is where you're thinking wayy too hard. I just want to be able to keep my machine safe and play a game when I purchase it. I don't want to have the fucking deed to Ubi's property in the box!

Edit, forgot: I don't know how many times I'm going to refer to it, but wanting to buy a game without systems that, say, delete 100 GB of data (YOU KNOW, LIKE I'VE MENTIONED DOZENS OF FUCKING TIMES), is not childish. At all.

Paragraph 2: This is where you're not thinking big enough. If it were just this one game, I'd say "fuck it, failed experiment, let it pass." But this is supposed to be for all of their games. If they keep getting this (among other horrible systems) past ignorant consumers, it'll be a horrible experience, probably to the point that people want the second game crash to happen.

[paladin]

Paragraph 1: What, are you actually happy about this system? I have yet to find one person that would buy a game knowing such a system exists. The game itself? Sure. Ubi.com's neediness? Fuck no. Also, it's not about civil liberties. This is where you're thinking wayy too hard. I just want to be able to keep my machine safe and play a game when I purchase it. I don't want to have the fucking deed to Ubi's property in the box!

Both. 1)It could careless. 2)Im not planning on buying the game. 3)If anything, I'll get the game on Xbox. I played Assassin's Creed 2 on xbox and in my opinion, it wasn't a great game. But with that said, Ive played other games that require you to connect to the internet to play, ie Anno 1404 which happens to be a Ubisoft game that use's Ubi's online accounts. If I hadn't played it before, I probably would still buy it. I have a great internet connection, so being connected wouldnt bother me.


Also, it's not about civil liberties. This is where you're thinking wayy too hard.

Reread what I said. i said this isn't a civil liberty and that Bod needs to stop acting like it is.


Edit, forgot: I don't know how many times I'm going to refer to it, but wanting to buy a game without systems that, say, delete 100 GB of data (YOU KNOW, LIKE I'VE MENTIONED DOZENS OF FUCKING TIMES), is not childish. At all.

It's unfortunate that that happened to you, but continuously whining like a toddler is childish.


Paragraph 2: This is where you're not thinking big enough. If it were just this one game, I'd say "fuck it, failed experiment, let it pass." But this is supposed to be for all of their games. If they keep getting this (among other horrible systems) past ignorant consumers, it'll be a horrible experience, probably to the point that people want the second game crash to happen.

I think your confusing ignorant consumers with casual gamers. Just because a casual gamer doesn't know the ins and outs of how the game is engineered, doesn't mean they're ignorant. If they purchase the game, it doesn't make them a sellout. And from a corporation standpoint, as long as your biggest consumer group, the casual gamer, is satisfied, they'll continue to do business as usual. Ubisoft is not going to re-engineer their DRM scheme so that 15% of their user-base can stop being butt hurt over something that only they seem to be broken. It is well within their right as a publisher and producer to protect their software/ work by their means. You as the consumer have to deal with it if you want to use their product.

If you want to use it, you have to play by their rules. Like it or not.

[flibitijibibo]

Part 1:
I fucking love that argument, and I've seen it in so many places. "It doesn't bother me, so it clearly must be totally okay!" Any point you make having to do with selfishness is totally invalid at this point.

I don't mind systems that require just logging in, a lot of those systems have benefits with them even (Steam, GFWL, and so on). But keeping a constant connection? Even your glorious connection probably couldn't do that all the time.

Part 2:
Eh, alright.

Part 3:
How about an exercise?
Step 1: Go to C:\
Step 2: Delete \Users\
Step 3: Try not to be upset or cite it in any way, because apparently doing it more than once (or possibly at all) makes you a child.

Part 4:
The term ignorant wasn't meant as a derogatory term. It does kinda look like it in that post... But yeah, they're not selling out. The only way someone sells out is if they full-well know what they're doing and don't care. I guarantee you that if this were printed on the box (not fine print), nobody in a store would dare take it to the counter. Even the most computer-illiterate person knows that the invincible Internet connection does not exist. Doesn't it bother you at all that the only reason bad DRM makes money is because of dishonesty? Or, as my gf likes to joke, "I'm not lying! I'm just not telling the complete truth!"

That's the interesting thing, though. Even if they don't know about it, they will, inevitably, come across the issues. Wouldn't they, at that point, complain to the company (probably through support)? Also, that 15% is the group publishers bitch about when it comes to piracy rates, and probably even the reason DRM exists. It's that horrid infinite loop of
"I don't want to buy the game because the DRM is too harsh. I want to play it though, so pirate it is, since there's no DRM on pirated versions."
"You pirated it because of DRM? Guess we'll have to make the DRM harsher so you can't pirate it."
And since DRM is impossible to perfect, it's doomed to goto 10.

Even Valve's system is crackable, and if it were a huge problem, the same thing would occur in their situation. Valve is so successful with their DRM, however, because of their honesty, which has given them their reputation, the reputation filling in most of that "impossible to totally protect" rule. Valve found something very few companies seem to understand: The honors system. They protect it to the most reasonable degree, then trust the user to use their software responsibly. Companies copy shit like WoW/Halo/CoD/GoW mechanics every fucking day, why can't anyone copy off Valve's DRM? (Okay okay, Battle.net, GFWL, etc. These are actually pretty good, too.)

Last: Just because it's their right to do so, doesn't mean it's a good idea. I have the right to film two consenting girls above the age of 18 eating each other's excretions/assorted bodily fluids, doesn't mean I ought to. (Then again, I wouldn't even do it if it were an actual obligation. Fucking freaks.)

[paladin]

I have nothing to add. You did a dandy job explaining yourself. No more questions.

[flibitijibibo]

This is so going in the next Podacity. Too many good points on both sides for this to be left in the back pages of Tech Talk.

Has there been an update on AC2 since that article? I just realized that the news on that seemed to die pretty quickly...

[Limited]

The only thing I can say is good luck continuing your career in the industry with a bull shit attitude like that. Id love to see your boss's response to why you think he and the company that pays his salary should loose money because a small group of a-holes think their game sucks and needs to change.
At the moment, my views are from a consumers point of view. If I was working in the company, I'd have to hide my personal views and think from a company stand point, which I can see there are good points, the game will be fully patched all the time. This obviously could potentially be a HUGE issue, what happens if they release a patch that is faulty and some users have game crashes? This makes the game unplayable and obviously, they won't be able to patch that issue instantly, so it would take at least a few days to figure out the issue,plan out how they will tackle that issue, implement a solution, rigorously test the solution and then finally release the patch. Thats alot of work, and takes a fairly long time, all that time, you can not play the game. If this happens like a few days after release, consumers will be pissed.

What ever happened to the good old days, when it was; The customer is always right?

[343guiltymc]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/02/ubisoft-details-drm.ars
Ubisoft trying to save their asses, fails.

[paladin]

At the moment, my views are from a consumers point of view. If I was working in the company, I'd have to hide my personal views and think from a company stand point, which I can see there are good points, the game will be fully patched all the time. This obviously could potentially be a HUGE issue, what happens if they release a patch that is faulty and some users have game crashes? This makes the game unplayable and obviously, they won't be able to patch that issue instantly, so it would take at least a few days to figure out the issue,plan out how they will tackle that issue, implement a solution, rigorously test the solution and then finally release the patch. Thats alot of work, and takes a fairly long time, all that time, you can not play the game. If this happens like a few days after release, consumers will be pissed.

Your biggest argument is hypothetical. In fact, every argument about a game before its released its hypothetical. So what if it could be potentially faulty. EVERY GAME has the potential to be. And saying that they 'obviously would patch it instantly' is just false. Regardless of what DRM or SecuROM they use, any sever gameplay altering problem would be addressed promptly. Don't make such rash judgement before the games even released. Every game has the potential for bugs. Actually, every game has them.


What ever happened to the good old days, when it was; The customer is always right?

People and corporations realized how stupid consumers can be and don't let a small group of butt hurt whinnies dictate their operation.

hth and Ill pick you up an inflatable donut at RiteAid for you to sit on.

[LinkandKvel]

The sheer complacency from a few members of this forum is both frustrating and despairing.

It is you, the complacent and ignorant fools that will sell our values and rights down the drain.
Sitting back and never voicing outrage because you perceive it to have little or no difference (even if your right) Will never, ever change things for your benefit.

You want to accept anything because you feel you cant voice outrage or protest, or because you feel it's redundant, well,

your just another brick in the wall.

This is one of the most ignorant post within this debate. This has NOTHING to do rights it's about buying a FUCKING game. WHY would I voice outrage when it doesn't anger me? That's pretty much blind rage. I can just as easily buy it on a console, which I have, and you have the same right to do so. AND you've just been added to the list of people BITCHING about it and taking no action whatsoever. YOUR the one talking about yourself in that post because your one that cares and still not doing anything about it. What if a company decided to NOT even release it on PC because of all the complaints? There would be MORE BITCHING? So tell me, how is a company supposed to win in a society that views most business strategies negatively when the people who complain can't do it any better them damn selves? Go read one of my previous suggestions and do it rather than sitting on your ass telling the members who can careless that they're the first ones to likely sell our values and rights. Now please kindly leave this thread as fast as you came in.

[flibitijibibo]

And you read further into the thread and realize we basically settled that.

Even then, I'm pretty sure he was talking about general morals, not "there's DRM, vive la revolucion" or whatever. He was probably just upset to see another example of immediate complacency, something seen in much worse situations.

Also, paladin's right on that last post. It is now "the group with the greatest amount of exploitable customers is right for our profit margin." A little wordy, but what hasn't been Mirriam & Webster'd these days...

[Limited]

People and corporations realized how stupid consumers can be and don't let a small group of butt hurt whinnies dictate their operation.

hth and Ill pick you up an inflatable donut at RiteAid for you to sit on.
It maybe hypothetical indeed, but it definitely needs to be considered, I've known games in the past that have done it and were made unplayable.

[jcap]

So tell me, how is a company supposed to win in a society that views most business strategies negatively when the people who complain can't do it any better them damn selves?
...

[Bodzilla]

And Id hardly call me, or warlord another brick in the wall when you and various other members are leading the communist revolution of the world.
:joe biden:

[=sw=warlord]

:joe biden:
Do you honestly think large business' would let you carry on screaming and shouting if they really felt it would hurt their image.
Look up the word Defamation and then look up the list of how many people have been down just for one word.
Find a more effective and legal approach to getting your point across.

[Yoko]

Pretty sure you mean "Defamation," warlord

Also, avoiding these threads like the plague because of the arguments. Plain and simple, I'd rather look past the DRM and judge whether I get AC2 based on the game itself.

[Warsaw]

I never played the first one, and didn't intend to buy this one. That aside, this type of game is one I'd rather play on consoles anyways; not a fan of third-person perspective action games on PC.

Having said that, this is the quaintest form of DRM I've seen so far. It makes sense on paper, but in practise it will never work. The implementation is also poor. It should give you an "Attempting to re-establish connection" overlay on your game rather than cut out like that. I don't understand why they don't just use Steam, they already have plenty of software on that platform, why not take full advantage of it?

[paladin]

It maybe hypothetical indeed, but it definitely needs to be considered, I've known games in the past that have done it and were made unplayable.

Well, did the developer come out in the end and say "oh gee golly gosh, we fucked up" or did they straight up not give a shit...


:joe biden:

:joseph stalin:

[Bodzilla]

LOL

guys i think i'm being trolled

[Bodzilla]

Do you honestly think large business' would let you carry on screaming and shouting if they really felt it would hurt their image.
Look up the word Defamation and then look up the list of how many people have been down just for one word.
Find a more effective and legal approach to getting your point across.
saying that their games are being nuetured by a pointless over complicated and redundant DRM system that hurts paying customers is not defamation

If i was spreading rumors about them luring children into their ginger bread house then that would be entirely different.

(oh and paladin for the record the :joe biden: thing was a refference to that gif of him laughing uncontrollably about something ridiculous someone just asked him hth.)

[paladin]

My :joseph satlin: was a reference to the portrait of him you have over you bed. hth

I believe it looks similar to this...

http://josephstalinfans.com/files/2008/12/joseph-stalin2.jpg

[Bodzilla]

room got painted last week, sorry bro.


he hangs in the garage now.
STALIN 4 LYFE

what a true american hero



derruuurrppppppp

[Phopojijo]

Actually I was just discussing this over at another forum. The whole problem of DRM is that it's all about control. Companies are afraid if they don't have control, so they try to impose control. Smarter, more modern companies, learn to remove control and rather profit off of the opportunity. As a result... they make money off of piracy-advertised long-tail sales... people who freeload often pay eventually... they may also buy newer versions/entries in franchises that they otherwise would have not cared about... they may also show their friends who will buy it and other items in the franchise. Also -- piracy isn't really costing you much, if anything, to begin with.

Also --

Protecting ownership of property is a conservative ideal... not a communist ideal.

Also --

Socialization != Socialism != Communism != Marxism != Sovietism.

[paladin]

Also --

Protecting ownership of property is a conservative ideal... not a communist ideal.



Oh, now I see why fagzilla gets his panties in a bunch about this shish

[Jean-Luc]

Oh, now I see why fagzilla gets his panties in a bunch about this shish
That's smart. Instead of arguing about how pointless and potentially harmful this DRM is, let's turn this into a political debate. Yeah, real smart.

All of those who say that you don't mind this DRM, I have yet to see any of you name a BENEFIT from its existence. Let's hear why this should be implemented.

[paladin]

That's smart. Instead of arguing about how pointless and potentially harmful this DRM is, let's turn this into a political debate. Yeah, real smart.

All of those who say that you don't mind this DRM, I have yet to see any of you name a BENEFIT from its existence. Let's hear why this should be implemented.

Im just following the fine example the elitists of Modacity have shown me. Also, he started it.

Also², how can we say anything real, good or bad, about something thats not released. Again with the hypotheticals. SHEEESH

[Jean-Luc]

Also², how can we say anything real, good or bad, about something thats not released. Again with the hypotheticals. SHEEESH
Nice one. Let's take a look at this shall we?

1) A singleplayer game is requiring players to have a constant internet connection.
2) If the connection drops for any reason, the internet is down, or Ubisoft's servers are down, you aren't allowed to play the game.
3) The game will be impossible to play for those without internet (traveling, those in the military, etc).
4) A lot of people are without access to a 100% stable internet connection, meaning a lot of hassle for them.

I don't need to "try" it, how fucking hard is this to understand? :raise:

[paladin]

Nice one. Let's take a look at this shall we?

1) A singleplayer game is requiring players to have a constant internet connection.
2) If the connection drops for any reason, the internet is down, or Ubisoft's servers are down, you aren't allowed to play the game.
3) The game will be impossible to play for those without internet (traveling, those in the military, etc).
4) A lot of people are without access to a 100% stable internet connection, meaning a lot of hassle for them.

I don't need to "try" it, how fucking hard is this to understand? :raise:

Why would you buy the game if you don't have internet? You stupid or something? Regardless of that, why would you buy something if you can't comply with it? Would you buy an Xbox game if you dont have an Xbox and expect it to work with your PC? Your making this into: "We have to buy this game, Ubisoft is forcing us to buy it even though I don't have internet! Call the police! Reform!"

SHHEEEESSSH

[Pooky]

people who freeload often pay eventually... they may also buy newer versions/entries in franchises that they otherwise would have not cared about... they may also show their friends who will buy it and other items in the franchise.

At the risk of being infracted, games that I've tried before buying:

Portal, GTA: San Andreas, Jedi Knight 2, Oblivion, Halo 2, Call of Duty 4, and probably some more

In short, the 'try before you buy' system works. I probably never would have bought or been interested in a lot of those games if I hadn't had the chance to try them first. I've almost always regretted buying games on impulse, or based on ads and reviews, because 90% of the time I end up hating the game and wishing I'd played it first. Some people who pirate games would never have bought them anyway, so no profits have really been lost. If people like a game, they'll pay for it, especially if it means additional features like online multiplayer. It's left up to developers to make games that people actually want to buy.

[Limited]

Well, did the developer come out in the end and say "oh gee golly gosh, we fucked up" or did they straight up not give a shit...
They straight up didnt give a shit, it took them over a week to even announce there was issue.


Also², how can we say anything real, good or bad, about something thats not released. Again with the hypotheticals. SHEEESH
You may a very good point, how can we judge if the implement is good, when all we have heard about is bad things?



Why would you buy the game if you don't have internet? You stupid or something? Regardless of that, why would you buy something if you can't comply with it?
If the game was a multiplayer game only, you'd instinctively think, duh I need the internet.

If the game is soley single player, you'd instinctively think you dont need the internet. When you first thought AC2 on the PC, did you honestly think you needed the internet? No you didnt.

[paladin]

Actually, my first thought was, "Why would I spend $60 on an Okay game that only took me 9 hours to beat." My second thought was, "When will a thread pop up on Whindacity?" And my third thought was, "Wow, these poor chumps actually think that they have to buy this game and that the world is going to end because of an internet connection."

With that said, and in all honesty, the DRM is wrong and should change. Unfortunately for some people, they haven't realized yet that they can't change that. What they do have is, is control over their wallets and can choose what they purchase. Sitting and whining about this shit won't do anything besides make yourself look foolish and childish.

[=sw=warlord]

If the game was a multiplayer game only, you'd instinctively think, duh I need the internet.

If the game is soley single player, you'd instinctively think you dont need the internet. When you first thought AC2 on the PC, did you honestly think you needed the internet? No you didnt.
These day's it's almost a garuntee that someone with a pc with high enough specs to run games will have internet, last i saw there weren't exactly that many cheap laptops with specs high enough to run games full specs and if they do, the battery life would probably be more of a issue.
If your in the military your probably too busy doing training or excercises.
It isn't a civil right to have access to software which dosn't need access to the internet, it isn't a obligation to buy every game known to man past, present nor future.
You wouldn't buy a car headlights if you didn't have a car to put them in, you wouldnt buy diesel when your car uses petrolium and you certainly wouldn't stick a fork into the electric outlet and then complain because you got electricuted out of your own stupidity.

[paladin]

These day's it's almost a garuntee that someone with a pc with high enough specs to run games will have internet, last i saw there weren't exactly that many cheap laptops with specs high enough to run games full specs and if they do, the battery life would probably be more of a issue.
If your in the military your probably too busy doing training or excercises.
It isn't a civil right to have access to software which dosn't need access to the internet, it isn't a obligation to buy every game known to man past, present nor future.
You wouldn't buy a car headlights if you didn't have a car to put them in, you wouldnt buy diesel when your car uses petrolium and you certainly wouldn't stick a fork into the electric outlet and then complain because you got electricuted out of your own stupidity.

Analogies ftw!

[jcap]

These day's it's almost a garuntee that someone with a pc with high enough specs to run games will have internet, last i saw there weren't exactly that many cheap laptops with specs high enough to run games full specs and if they do, the battery life would probably be more of a issue.There's been times where I've lost Internet access for several hours. Other times, I have been traveling and gone places where I have downtime and like to play games. Fuck, just earlier today, I was playing Braid for an hour. When my Grandmother had only dial-up until cable was available two years ago, I would play games if I ever got bored. In all of the scenarios above, this DRM makes playing AC2 impossible....without cracking.


If your in the military your probably too busy doing training or excercises.Way to be stereotypical, jackass. Just because you are in the military doesn't automatically mean you are doing training every second of every day. Maybe there might be a block of a few months where it's like that, but not always. Why not just use Kornman as an example? Oh, also, Kornman's Internet intentionally randomly cuts out from his ISP.

To me, this isn't about any right to play it. This is about the ridiculousness of the DRM and how it has gotten to the point of making games unplayable FOR NOTHING. I already said I'm not going to buy it. In fact, just in spite of the DRM, I admit I will pirate the game, hopefully before its street date too. I don't feel as guilty, as I already own it on the Xbox, but I was originally planning on buying it on Steam a few months later. Hell, before I got it for the 360, I was even talking with ShadowSpartan on AIM whether I should wait for the PC version. Ubisoft's developers have lost all of my respect, and I will not buy another one of their titles until they take the millions of cocks out of their mouths and learn that they are doing more harm than good.

As I've said before, not buying a game does jack shit. Even if they would have sold 5 million copies without DRM, they might only sell 4.5 million because of the uneducated buyers. You can't possibly expect a boycott to work. You can't expect the average person who wants to play the game to look at the one 6pt font line at the bottom of the back of the box that says "Internet connection required." Really, the best thing to do is to just complain after it comes out and make tens of thousands of complaints and support threads on their forums, whether your problem is "real" or not.

[flibitijibibo]

I'd kinda be interested to see what it looks like if someone were to infract themself...

I agree though. That's why I want this thread to stay alive, both here and through Podacity (not abusing news control at all lolol).

[paladin]

So what your saying is that from the release on, the only thing your going to do when you have nothing to do is play Assassins Creed 2? :raise:

Why not play it when your at home when you have a good internet connection and actually converse with your grandmother when you visit her.

Also, just because someone buys the damn game, doesn't mean they're uneducated. If I wanted the game, I'd buy it. Not to shove it in your face (though its tempting), but because I can comply with their requirement. Its just like if you bought a game that only ran on DX10 and your gpu only supports DX9. Or if it took up 10gb of HDD space and you on have an 8gb HDD. OMG WTF CHANGE THAT SHIT SO I CAN PLAY. Consider it a god damn system requirement. You guys need to stop thinking that your cause is so noble and right and that its the only positive attitude to have.

[jcap]

Further reinforces my point that a boycott has no effect...

[StankBacon]

fuck me this thread is 100% garbage.

mostly because of you few trying so hard to defend this type of move using shitty analogies.

there is absolutely no reason to require a constant interwebs connection, and anything you say will not change that fact... no matter how witty you think your being.

[k4is3rxkh40s]

So what your saying is that from the release on, the only thing your going to do when you have nothing to do is play Assassins Creed 2? :raise:

Why not play it when your at home when you have a good internet connection and actually converse with your grandmother when you visit her.

Also, just because someone buys the damn game, doesn't mean they're uneducated. If I wanted the game, I'd buy it. Not to shove it in your face (though its tempting), but because I can comply with their requirement. Its just like if you bought a game that only ran on DX10 and your gpu only supports DX9. Or if it took up 10gb of HDD space and you on have an 8gb HDD. OMG WTF CHANGE THAT SHIT SO I CAN PLAY. Consider it a god damn system requirement. You guys need to stop thinking that your cause is so noble and right and that its the only positive attitude to have.

You're missing the big point here. Yes, the general rantings are about this being a horrible system, and wanting it to be changed. Yes, if you don't like it, don't buy it. BUT, and a colossal but at that, is this will sell no matter what, giving the developers no reason to stop what they're doing. When there's no reason to stop doing what they're doing, then they'll sell more of the same shit. Eventually, proven that gamers will hand their rectums to developers for games (MW2, Batman: AA, Bioshock 2, etc) be it by ignorance or they are quite fond of anal, then chances are more developers will ride the bandwagon. What happens afterwords should be quite obvious.

DRM like this is the equivalent of if guitar companies decided to stop making right handed guitars, and told everyone they had to learn to play left handed because their right handed guitars were being copied too often.

They're still gonna be copied and the people who have poured their money into the company over the years just had their faces spat on.

[Rook]

fuck me this thread is 100% garbage.

mostly because of you few trying so hard to defend this type of move using shitty analogies.

there is absolutely no reason to require a constant interwebs connection, and anything you say will not change that fact... no matter how witty you think your being.

http://www.designofsignage.com/application/symbol/hospital/image/600x600/arrow-up.jpg

[Jean-Luc]

fuck me this thread is 100% garbage.

mostly because of you few trying so hard to defend this type of move using shitty analogies.

there is absolutely no reason to require a constant interwebs connection, and anything you say will not change that fact... no matter how witty you think your being.
This. A million times. :golfclap:

[paladin]

fuck me this thread is 100% garbage.

Just like you and others whining and complaining.

mostly because of you few trying so hard to defend this type of move using shitty analogies.

Im not defending the DRM. I'm trying to convince people that they are wasting their time whining about crap that's out of their control and cannot change. And I use analogies because I have tried using simple terms, butsome people are to stupid to process simple word structure, thus forcing me to put it into terms they might be able to understand.

there is absolutely no reason to require a constant interwebs connection, and anything you say will not change that fact... no matter how witty you think your being.

I have not once defended this, in fact, if you actually took the time to read what I say, I do disagree with it. That doesn't change the fact that Ubisoft and companies alike have free will to do what ever the fuck they want to their games.


ATTN MODACITY: THIS KIDS LEGIT - StankBacon -

[Dwood]

Are you racist or something? beat as a kid paladin? btw its threads like this that keep me at modacity.

[paladin]

What does any of that have to do with what I said.


But, unrelated, yes.

[Bodzilla]

So what your saying is that from the release on, the only thing your going to do when you have nothing to do is play Assassins Creed 2? :raise:


you couldnt have missed the point more if you fired in the opposite direction and the point was in a different solar system.

i mean jesus it's like you didnt even read hist shit.

[LinkandKvel]

I GOT AN IDEA. LETS MAKE A GAME AS GOOD AS ASSASSIN'S CREED AND MAKE OUR OWN DRM!!! Or we can go to a forum and continuously complain about it knowing nothing will change.

[Bodzilla]

*facepalm*

Me thinks thou understanding of thy topic is minuscule at best my friend.

[Warsaw]

*facepalm*

Me thinks thine understanding of the topic is minuscule at best, my friend.

Fixed. :haw:

[/offtopic lightheartedness]

[LinkandKvel]

*facepalm*

Me thinks thou understanding of thy topic is minuscule at best my friend.No I understand it's just the point of this thread is null. There's nothing left to argue so it may as well be ended. I understand the point you guys are making, but everything in this thread has no meaning behind it unless you do something about it. If you think this is how it'll start well be my guest go against it. I understand some of you are in here to contradict points and essentially debate, but some of the rest of you are just flat out complaining.

[paladin]

you couldnt have missed the point more if you fired in the opposite direction and the point was in a different solar system.

i mean jesus it's like you didnt even read hist shit.

OMG WELCOME TO MY WORLD. An elitist with selective hearing like yourself now understands how I feel! I never thought I'd see the day.


I GOT AN IDEA. LETS MAKE A GAME AS GOOD AS ASSASSIN'S CREED AND MAKE OUR OWN DRM!!! Or we can go to a forum and continuously complain about it knowing nothing will change.

This guy sounds Legit.

ATTN MODACITY: This kid is legit - LinkandKvel -


you must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LinkandKvel again.

:ohdear:

[Cortexian]

I'm most likely going to buy this and then apply the inevitable crack for it just to get rid of the shitty DRM.

[Bodzilla]

I'm most likely going to buy this and then apply the inevitable crack for it just to get rid of the shitty DRM.
AHHHHHHHHHHHOSAFHK:ASFHPOASGHAOHI{ Oih[aoifhw[ ouih

THAT DOES NOTHING SFJHAFHFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

[LinkandKvel]

I'm most likely going to buy this and then apply the inevitable crack for it just to get rid of the shitty DRM.

You know what would be funnier? If you bought it but there was an unexpected block in there that prevented you from doing so, so you gave ubisoft money for a game you didn't intend to play :haw:

[jcap]

That's impossible.

[paladin]

You know what would be funnier? If you bought it but there was an unexpected block in there that prevented you from doing so, so you gave ubisoft money for a game you didn't intend to play :haw:

He buys MW2 and finds AC2 inside.

[Cortexian]

This thread went to crap after page 1 (10ppp to clear the inevitable comment regarding this).

[paladin]

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Whats this? Its just gonna sit on my self, wrapped, untouched. +$65.47 Ubisoft

[flibitijibibo]

... Did you seriously just buy a game purely out of spite?

"Start the Revolution" my ass.

Edit: Just read the thread again. paladin, if this thread didn't exist, that receipt wouldn't exist either. You acknowledged that you disagreed with the system, yet you bought the game just to piss people off; people whom you've never even met. You demeaned yourself to the level of the uneducated gamer in an attempt to make people "feel worse" over the Internet and to win an argument that you, for some reason, refuse to lose, even when you are objectively proven wrong. I hope the attempt was worth giving in to a future of paying for games you can't play.

That took it too far. Every motherfucker in this thread deserves an infraction for flamewar, and this should be closed.

[paladin]

Sure thing.

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/cool_story_bro.jpg

[=sw=warlord]

That took it too far. Every motherfucker in this thread deserves an infraction for flamewar, and this should be closed.
Why should everyone be given infractions, not everyone has flamed or even attempted insulting anyone.

[CN3089]

... Did you seriously just buy a game purely out of spite?

"Start the Revolution" my ass.

Edit: Just read the thread again. paladin, if this thread didn't exist, that receipt wouldn't exist either. You acknowledged that you disagreed with the system, yet you bought the game just to piss people off; people whom you've never even met. You demeaned yourself to the level of the uneducated gamer in an attempt to make people "feel worse" over the Internet and to win an argument that you, for some reason, refuse to lose, even when you are objectively proven wrong. I hope the attempt was worth giving in to a future of paying for games you can't play.

That took it too far. Every motherfucker in this thread deserves an infraction for flamewar, and this should be closed.

u mad?~

[Phopojijo]

Lay off the trolling and baiting...

I would say "you know who you are" -- but I'm afraid I'd need to add a question mark to that.

[Bastinka]

Seems like the same what Rockstar did with the PC version of GTA IV, except a lot worse. My internet connection jumps in and out at random times at lest twice throughout the day but if it's true that all saved progress will be lost when playing.. well then that just ruins a lot of the game. This just seems a bit silly to me, even for measures against anti-piracy this is a little extreme even for those who legitimately own the game and maybe want to play offline when their internet connection craps out for a while.

[paladin]

Lay off the trolling and baiting...

I would say "you know who you are" -- but I'm afraid I'd need to add a question mark to that.

The things I wish I could link to :allears:

Also, Bastinka, it is silly. Unfortunately for all of us we have silly people making silly decisions over silly situations.

Also, flibitijibibo, I was joking, but I can't prove it. So, take my word for it bro :airquote:

[teh lag]

This thread disappoints me. I feel some guilt for not stepping in earlier (isn't Phopo's post the only one of a staff member in here actually doing their job and not taking part in this poor display of conversational ability?), but here we are now with 10 pages of a screeching competition, no matter whose fault it is. DRM seems to be a more-than-volatile issue for us. What should happen - just indiscriminately hand out red and yellow to people? I've done that a few times but somehow it doesn't feel appropriate here. Maybe it is and I'm just not getting it.

I don't know... do I lock the thread? It feels strange stifling conversation like this, especially right after Phopo gave you guys a warning. Like it almost deserves another chance, and like I'm overruling his decision to keep it open because I don't trust you guys.

But where can the conversation go? This is a huge issue and it sure won't be resolved on a board like ours. I think we've passed that point of diminishing returns as far as conversation goes - at least with the people we have here. Some people care, some people don't. Some think it's a big deal, others think those people are dumb. Welp.

It's enough to make a person begin to stop caring. Why can't we handle discussions like this? (No, don't answer that by pointing fingers.)