Real Time Tag Editor

[ShadowSpartan]

I have been working on a new application for quite some time now which includes a real time tag editor for Halo CE. I want to get people's opinions on the application, and if you guys would want an editor like this to be released. I'm open to suggestions on features to add to the memory editor, but there is no guarantee that it will be added, especially since summer classes are starting and my free time will be limited.

Youtube messed up the quality of the video, so I have also added a link to the video file hosted on my ftp. If you are going to watch on Youtube, watch it in 720p so you can make out the text.

Link to wmv video file. (37.2 MB) (http://shadow.modacity.net/videos/ce_real_time_tag_editor.wmv)

aiF-kxCgETs

Some stuff not included/shown in the video:


There is now a button that opens the tag that a 'tag reference' field references (like guerilla)
The choose color dialog now adds the current color to the list and automatically selects it
You can now add math expressions to fields and have them evaluated when saving (for instance you can have '2+6*3', and it will evaluate to '20' and save it to memory)
Once you are finished editing a tag, you can extract the tag to your tags folder for later use

Let me know what you guys think about releasing it, and also about any features you think would be useful.

[Siliconmaster]

I appreciate you chose Precipice to screw with. :P

This app could have serious potential for perfecting effects and vehicle systems without having to reload the game a hundred times to check stuff. Definitely release it- I might not have a direct reason to use it right now, but I'm sure other people would.

[CtrlAltDestroy]

This app could have serious potential for perfecting effects

thats why i bitched at him to make it in the first place

[CodeBrain]

Yeah, this tool can help map makers test their configurations on their maps!

[FireScythe]

Very nice :). How well does this handle custom tags? Because it would be cool to be able to extend it to edit the custom formats added in OS.

[Mythril]

Would be really great, recompiling, booting CE and loading the map every time I change a single value is annoying and time-consuming.

[StankBacon]

awesome!

[Timo]

Freakin' epic man. It'd help greatly with creating UIs if it's able to edit widget tags of the fly.

[Sasc]

Definitely release! This would save so much time.

[Shock120]

Release.
That is one nice memory editor, does it work with all versions of Halo?

[TEMPTii]

Awesome! I saw something that combined Sapien, Guerilla, and HaloCE into one application and flipped, but this completely surpasses it!
Release it!

[sleepy1212]

Of course release, i hate recompile spiral

but yea game is dead

[ShadowSpartan]

Very nice :). How well does this handle custom tags? Because it would be cool to be able to extend it to edit the custom formats added in OS.
Currently, all of the tag definitions are stored as xml files, but I plan on storing all of the stock definitions internally if I release. You will be able to write tag definitions for custom tags, which will then allow them to be viewed and edited in the program. The definition format is similar to OS's definitions.

[staticchanger]

Definatly release it, this may actually get me to finish some maps. I think it would become a staple tool to any CEr's toolbox if you released it. Your tha man!

Another thought, I don't know if this is beyond your programming capabilities, but you could make it to where other people can recieve the changes from a host. For example me and a few beta testers are tweaking the damage dealt by a projectile. Before we would have to try it, make a guesstimation change, compile map, zip it, send it over, the reload Halo, rinse, repeat. If they all had the memory editor running and somehow recieving changes from mine, I could change things on the fly what would take hours to make a change, and distribute it would be reduced to a few seconds. It wouldn't have to be instant, but changes would sync saving alot of time and effort. Great app, regardless of whether you finish it or not it needs to be released.

[Ifafudafi]

do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it

This would make particles effects so much simpler

E: Oh, and could you have an option to order the tags by their folder directories rather than their tag prefix? It's not urgent but I've gotten so used to navigating folders it'd take a while to readjust

[Dwood]

I'm not sure if I saw this in the video, but are you planning on allowing people to Import tags from their directories or can we only edit tags that are in the initial map?

Very nice app.

[Limited]

Great work, its like seeing my love child becoming an adult. We should get in touch with Locke and tell him :)

StaticChanger the problem with that is you'd need to send across a massive amount of data to everyone in the game, pretty much constantly if your editing it on the fly. I can tell you there is a ton of data in the tags.

[FireScythe]

Currently, all of the tag definitions are stored as xml files, but I plan on storing all of the stock definitions internally if I release. You will be able to write tag definitions for custom tags, which will then allow them to be viewed and edited in the program. The definition format is similar to OS's definitions.
Thats good then :), though it would be worth providing a way to override the stock definitions since there is unused space in some tags that could be used in future by OS.

[staticchanger]

Great work, its like seeing my love child becoming an adult. We should get in touch with Locke and tell him :)

StaticChanger the problem with that is you'd need to send across a massive amount of data to everyone in the game, pretty much constantly if your editing it on the fly. I can tell you there is a ton of data in the tags.

No I don't mean sending whole tagsets across, I only mean sending the changes across, like "change the value of intial velocity in the projectile tag plasma bolt from 10 to 14". The tags are all there in the map file everyone has to begin with. For example I change the pistol's projectile to a rocket. It wouldn't even require sending entire pistol tag to be sent, only the changes made to the tag since the clients would already have all the tags that could be edited or refrenced to. It would be very little data, the sentence above had all the information neceserry to make the needed change. As for adding outside tags, from what I understand thats not possible with this app, only tags loaded into memory from the map can be changed or refrenced to.

[Limited]

The application would need to keep tabs on every single value, to check if it has changed. What you could do is when a text box is changed, add that value into a store. When all changes have been made export out a file which can be loaded and will load corresponding values. It would be easier to send a file to each member using a website, or msn/aim/xfire or something, than to code in networking capabilities.

Who says this cant add tags into memory eh? :P (Keep open mind).

[Kornman00]

The application would need to keep tabs on every single value, to check if it has changed. What you could do is when a text box is changed, add that value into a store. When all changes have been made export out a file which can be loaded and will load corresponding values. It would be easier to send a file to each member using a website, or msn/aim/xfire or something, than to code in networking capabilities.
Either way you'd still have to code in a new feature. For both you'd just be creating a transactional database of change events. The way these events are synchronized to other possible clients is no matter as it would (or rather, should) be a completely different system. It really wouldn't be all that complex to implement assuming you're doing it (the real time editing) as a team and thus connect to one another explicitly rather than hooking the game to get the clients which you need to sync with.

You could easily use a tunneling system to virtualize a LAN setup and ease connecting to one another without worrying about real-world IPs, etc.

TBQH, having to upload to a site or send-file would be more troublesome, at least on the end user. Even if the uploads are automated, the clients would still have to download those files. Even if you automate that, you'd have to figure out a way of notifying those cllients (has to be networked some how, even if it's on the site...and you don't want to be constantly polling a file on a webtsite do you?) and after that's all said and done it'd end up being more complex than a simple network client connections which send small amounts of info (or entire databases if they're joining mid-game editing). Not all (if any) of those IM clients have interfaces to automate send-file operations either. On top of that, you'd be limiting the end-user to a specific IM client that you only choose to support when ALL end-users will have a network connection if they're wanting to do networked real-time editing.

How about we give some thought into these kinds of things before shutting them down

[staticchanger]

The application would need to keep tabs on every single value, to check if it has changed. What you could do is when a text box is changed, add that value into a store. When all changes have been made export out a file which can be loaded and will load corresponding values. It would be easier to send a file to each member using a website, or msn/aim/xfire or something, than to code in networking capabilities.

Who says this cant add tags into memory eh? :P (Keep open mind).

Thats a good point, I like the file export idea, I would be easy make a button that could download the file from a customizable url and import the changes. Then for the host it would be a matter of getting the clients the their url and updating the change file as needed. You could also make a button that exports the changes to a specified folder which could easily be made public with HFS, apache or something. Your right a setup like that or even aim/xfire is much easier than implementing it into the program, but I am getting ahead of myself here. I'm up for any release now, just the time saving power of using it alone will be amazing.

[Limited]

I'm also taking into consideration Shadows programming skills, Korn.

[Higuy]

Would this app be able to edit encounters (like moving positions, etc) and scenarios on the fly? Just not bipeds/weapons/etc?

[sevlag]

release

[staticchanger]

Maybe the release will be open? That would be cool then I'd give a whirl at making it syncable.

[Roostervier]

didn't have time to read the thread, but it looks like an amazing app. definitely release!

[ShadowSpartan]

I'm also taking into consideration Shadows programming skills, Korn.
Normally I would probably take offense, but I honestly don't know anything about networking. Not saying I can't learn and read up on it in my free time though. Also, love child, what?

As for the saving file idea, it could serve a dual purpose. You could send the file to a friend in a server and have the changes apply to their side, and you can also use it to basically save your current 'session'. So if you are in the middle of editing some tags and have to leave, you could save all of the changes you have done to a file, which can then be loaded at a later time and all of the previous changes will be applied.


Would this app be able to edit encounters (like moving positions, etc) and scenarios on the fly? Just not bipeds/weapons/etc?
You can edit almost any value in the tags, whether the engine will handle the change or not, I don't know. If it didn't work the first time you edit something, then I would choose the 'restart game' option and it will probably accept the changes. When you choose 'new game' it will completely reload all of the tag data in the map file, but when you choose 'restart game' all of the tag data is kept the same.


Maybe the release will be open? That would be cool then I'd give a whirl at making it syncable.
No, it will be closed source.


This would make particles effects so much simpler

E: Oh, and could you have an option to order the tags by their folder directories rather than their tag prefix? It's not urgent but I've gotten so used to navigating folders it'd take a while to readjust
I had a feeling you would be one of the people who liked it. I have code to load the tags by folder in the treeview already, I just haven't added an option in the gui to choose between the two of them yet.


I'm not sure if I saw this in the video, but are you planning on allowing people to Import tags from their directories or can we only edit tags that are in the initial map?
No, you can only edit the tags that are in the map file initially.


Thats good then :), though it would be worth providing a way to override the stock definitions since there is unused space in some tags that could be used in future by OS.
I'll think about it, but Korn has told me in the past that he doesn't like the idea of editing stock definitions, since some of the fields (or rather padding) could actually be used by the engine only at runtime.

[Dwood]

The problem with editing things like firing position is that you'd basically have to find some way to get Halo to tell the user visually where the firing positions are, how one draws their own models, if at all, would probably be a good question, should people want to edit objects that they can't normally see...

[staticchanger]

Sweet dude, I'm glad there will be folder view, this is going to be the best app ever. Definatly try adding an import/export changes feature, even if it just has basic functions I think it would definatly come in handy. Also like I said before, simply making an option to load/save changes to a directory quickly paired with some clever batchfiles/programs would give us a way of semiauto updating changes. (Think HFS and wget)

[ShadowSpartan]

The problem with editing things like firing position is that you'd basically have to find some way to get Halo to tell the user visually where the firing positions are, how one draws their own models, if at all, would probably be a good question, should people want to edit objects that they can't normally see...
I'm not going through that much trouble on editing stuff. You could just load up sapien at the same time you are running the game. Move something slightly, get the coordinates, then change them in the editor.

[Lightning]

omgomgomgyes

[Dwood]

I'm not going through that much trouble on editing stuff. You could just load up sapien at the same time you are running the game. Move something slightly, get the coordinates, then change them in the editor.

Halo in Windowed mode is a beautiful thing.

[Skarma]

ShadowSpartan, what Windows APIs are you using to manipulate memory? Any thoughts implementing a Direct3D GUI?

I think the networking idea is great! I had been working on this for a memory editor a few months back. It uses the existing socket so that another network doesn't need to be setup. The clients are managed using the vector container class and the packets have a unique signature added to them so the data the clients / server receive can be identified. The packet just has to contain the memory address and new value. I have most of the code done but needs some work.

[ShadowSpartan]

ShadowSpartan, what Windows APIs are you using to manipulate memory?
ReadProcessMemory and WriteProcessMemory.


Any thoughts implementing a Direct3D GUI?
No, I'm working on this in my free time, and it is already going to take a while to release as it is.

[Limited]

Also the sheer number of GUI options would be a bit overkill to do rendering it into the Halo process itself, also would have issues with resolution sizes and selection.

[t3h m00kz]

Awesome concept.

[malolo420]

Wow this is the coolest, bestestest thing CE has seen in a looooongg time.

Edit: And who's the idiot who voted "Isn't this game dead already? (Don't release)."

[Kiwibird]

Very cool app! I'd definitely like to see this released. I'd certainly start making stuff just to use it.

[ShadowSpartan]

oh gawd, I wish I could retract that vote.
I should've been more awake. ='(
Don't worry, your vote doesn't count to me, and neither do three other people's votes. I haven't forgotten the shit you pulled before.

On another note, looks like a staff member has been having some fun with the poll results. :p

[formlesstree4]

Don't worry, your vote doesn't count to me, and neither do three other people's votes. I haven't forgotten the shit you pulled before.

On another note, looks like a staff member has been having some fun with the poll results. :p

It would appear so. It makes for some interesting looks when you open the vote results page and see no people for the "No" category.

[staticchanger]

Apparently someone decided to spam the poll just now, because the nos just jumped from 0% to over half within almost no time and there's no negative feedback on the forum.

Edit: If you look at the people who voted, no one is listed under no even though it says 30 votes.

[CodeBrain]

Apparently someone decided to spam the poll just now, because the nos just jumped from 0% to over half within almost no time and there's no negative feedback on the forum.

Edit: If you look at the people who voted, no one is listed under no even though it says 30 votes.

Mod/Admin hax. Thats all I am going to say :)

[staticchanger]

So what is the time frame of seeing a release? What about beta?

[ShadowSpartan]

So what is the time frame of seeing a release? What about beta?
At the earliest, mid-July, after my class is over. I'm sure I will give a beta build to a few of the people I still trust, so nobody should come asking me, I don't need volunteers.


no one is negative at all, that be the 7ru7h.
eh, I r so dumb...:ugh: but don't waste a braincell on me.
Do not post in my thread again, I've had enough.

[staticchanger]

Thats cool what language is this app written in?

[Limited]

C#, spartan doesnt like C++ (boo).

You can tell by the lack of a new application icon, and possibly the huge freaking C# in the taskbar.

[staticchanger]

Guess I forgot to notice

[nuttyyayap]

Release it, With this i can FINALLY get my stuff done

[Dwood]

Release it, With this i can FINALLY get my stuff done

What makes it so you can't get it done right now?

[malolo420]

What makes it so you can't get it done right now?
Probably his lazy ass. Not trying to put him down, if it seemed that way.

[nuttyyayap]

You're right, it IS my lazy ass, i hate having to modify a few fields, compiling, then waiting 10 minutes for halo to load...

[Amit]

You're right, it IS my lazy ass, i hate having to modify a few fields, compiling, then waiting 10 minutes for halo to load...

10 Minutes? Jesus. It shouldn't take more than 20 seconds to start the game with tons of custom map files.

[nuttyyayap]

It takes 20 minutes when you have 24.3 GB of maps...

[Futzy]

Move them to a different folder when you don't need them.
Someone made a real time dependency swapper for halo pc a while ago, is this editing actual tags for ce or is it like that?

[ShadowSpartan]

Someone made a real time dependency swapper for halo pc a while ago, is this editing actual tags for ce or is it like that?
They are both editing the same thing, the tag data that is stored in memory. A dependency swapper only lets you edit the tag reference fields though.

[Amit]

It takes 20 minutes when you have 24.3 GB of maps...

Well then your user title definitely suits you because nobody should have that many maps in their map folder lol.

[Goldkilla]

RELEASE!!!! Guerrilla really is a pain on me sometimes... wait are you testing your map before its finished!

[FireScythe]

Bump! Had a few of ideas for this that would be pretty handy. First is to be able to open a tag based on its datum index, which i'd guess would be pretty simple to put in since you must be using the tag cache already. Second is to show the memory address for the tag fields when hovering over the field or ctrl click to copy it to the clipboard or something. Lastly, I couldn't see any in the video, but being able to view the contents of skips/pads would be useful, either by default or by using a console argument to unhide them.

[ShadowSpartan]

First is to be able to open a tag based on its datum index, which i'd guess would be pretty simple to put in since you must be using the tag cache already.
Wouldn't be hard to implement, but I don't see the point. It doesn't seem like it would be all that useful, care to explain your reasoning?


Second is to show the memory address for the tag fields when hovering over the field or ctrl click to copy it to the clipboard or something.
Well, currently the tooltip is reserved for extra information about a particular field. It displays the same text that guerilla does for it's tooltip. Yet again, I don't see much of a point for displaying the memory addresses for each field, because you can already edit any value as it is.


Lastly, I couldn't see any in the video, but being able to view the contents of skips/pads would be useful, either by default or by using a console argument to unhide them.
I suppose that would be useful for determining which pad/skip fields were used at runtime so that you could overwrite the ones that weren't, but Korn has always been against editing the stock tag definitions like that. Beyond that, what other purpose would it serve showing the fields, or was that your intent?

Sorry if it seems like I'm attacking your ideas, but I'm not. I welcome ideas, I just want to make sure that adding the new features will actually be useful and the time spent adding them will be justified.

[FireScythe]

They would be useful for reverse engineering for OS. Say you want to find the code that changes a runtime value in a tag. If the code has been found that gets the tag pointer from a tag index, then Halo can be paused at that point, the tag index can be dropped into your program to open the tag in an easy to view way, then the memory address of the intended value can be taken and put into a memory hacking program to place a breakpoint at that memory address to detect the code that changes that value.

Would basically make it a bit easier to find which code manipulates which tags.

[Kornman00]

but Korn has always been against editing the stock tag definitions like that
I'm looking at making an exception to that OS specification for something that is well deserving and shouldn't be implemented any other way (to save the user heartache). The biggest concern has always been backwards compatibility (read: non-OS tools and games) which is a huge problem when adding fields in existing tags.

However, like FS was saying, he needs it for some stuff he's working on. Others would undoubtedly get use out of it too. If someone is editing fields at runtime then they should know what they're doing to begin with or have Guerilla open already to change their source tags with new values and thus have access to tooltips. If you still want to keep the stock help strings in then you can just have an "engineer mode", a la H2Guerilla's "expert mode", which overrides the tooltip implementation to instead show memory addresses of a fields.

[FireScythe]

The tooltip suggestion isn't that important but having the address copied to the clipboard if you ctrl click the field name label (or something to that effect) would be very useful.

[ShadowSpartan]

The tooltip suggestion isn't that important but having the address copied to the clipboard if you ctrl click the field name label (or something to that effect) would be very useful.
Thanks for explaining why you wanted those features added. I'll see what I can do in my free time, which is very limited currently.


If someone is editing fields at runtime then they should know what they're doing to begin with or have Guerilla open already to change their source tags with new values and thus have access to tooltips.
Well, I have the option to extract the edited tags for that very reason, so that people don't have to do that. Though for tags with 'data' fields, I still haven't wrote code to handle the necessary byte swapping, so those extracted tags won't work properly. Not sure how many tags that affects, I'll check later this evening.

[ShadowSpartan]

I have some news a lot of you may not like, but I am beyond fed up with the bullshit that has been going on. I am canceling this project for public release. Please continue reading before you go post.

Recently, I have been attacked by Resinball, Kantanomo, and Shock120 because of myself, and Zteam, not releasing anything to the community, making "false promises", and apparently only working with Halo 1. Examples are here (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?21957-Custom-maps-custom-vehicles-custom-etc...&p=548002&viewfull=1#post548002), here (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?21957-Custom-maps-custom-vehicles-custom-etc...&p=548052&viewfull=1#post548052), and here (http://www.modacity.net/forums/member.php?145-ShadowSpartan#visitor_messaging) (pg 1 & 2). So let me get a few facts straight.

Does anyone remember when we announced Halo 1 script extraction, but said we were going to keep it Zteam and CMT exclusive until their singleplayer mod was out? People flipped out and cried about CMT getting something first. Rather than be happy about them being released eventually, and allowing for a campaign modification of a scale never before seen, they yell and cry about something they were fine about not having before. That is the first thing that put me off to releasing stuff for the community.

How about Halo 2 animation injection? Zteam said we would release the injector, but not the extractor, for various reasons. Instead of being happy about an animation injector finally being released, what did people do? They flipped out because we were keeping the animation extractor private, when they did not even need the extractor. This led to neither of them getting released, because it showed how the community can never be happy with what is given to them and really put me off to releasing stuff for the community ever again. I changed my mind with this editor, because I felt like the community could benefit from it, but I don't care anymore.

As for myself and Zteam never touching the other games, that is such bullshit. We have extracted content from every halo game to date, besides Halowars. So why haven't we ever shown off some mods for the games on Xbox 360? We do not have jtag 360's or devkits, so it was never within our interests to actually create mods for those games. Zteam was more than capable of doing it.

I have never been one to show off my own programs, only to my close friends, because it will never see the light of day to the community. Why show off something when it won't be released? I want to say though, I have made various programs over the years, for every halo game, and I don't care what people think about it. I know that I have done it, and that is all that matters. The three people I mentioned above are only mad because I have not released any of my tools, but it is because of children like them that I do not release my stuff.

I am almost to the point of calling it quits to modding entirely, because I am sick of how this community is containing more and more idiots every day. I will never release anything to the community because of this recent bullshit, as well as the past events which I described above. If you were looking forward to using this application, I am sorry, but it only takes a few people to ruin it for everyone. It has happened in the past, and unfortunately it has happened again because of these children. Don't even try to convince me to release. Maybe I will change my mind down the road, but don't get your hopes up.

[Angelus]

And this is what happens to the actual modders when you let a community go to hell.

[Kantanomo]

:rolleyes:
what ever, another Z team claim i say.

besides why would you take your anger out on CE when its the h2v players that are :airquote:pissing you off:airquote: why not just keep everything for that which you claim you have done.

:bunchies:

[Syuusuke]

You're a prime example.

[Angelus]

It's the same community stupid silly

[ShadowSpartan]

what ever, another Z team claim i say.
I created the editor by myself.


besides why would you take your anger out on CE when its the h2v players that are :airquote:pissing you off:airquote:

I am sorry, but it only takes a few people to ruin it for everyone.



why not just keep everything for that which you claim you have done.
I have no clue what you just said, and I really don't care either.

[Limited]

Kantanomo, this is a respect issue. People insulted Shadows knowledge, claimed he never really made any process in things. The fact is this has been happening all the time in the Halo community. People arent getting the respect, they just get backlash from users screaming at them for reasons. Oh this doesnt had X functionality, they never stop to say, "Wait hold on I really enjoy this, although it would be nice to have X function".

Yes there are a few decent members still out there, but there are alot of bad apples, which are the ones bringing this community down.

"why not just keep everything for that which you claim you have done."
People complain when we don't explain what our projects are, they get pissed if they are "outside" the loop of knowledge on a particular project. So they bitch and moan, like ignorant baboons, "oh you have never done anything!!", so what do we do? We turn around and prove we are capable of the things we say, we show proof, we show off our work, hoping to clear the air.

What happens next? People still complain and bitch, they complain the fact the project has not been released, or its released to a select few.

None of us make any money from this, we dont have any lucrative deals with a company to release our stuff. We make the stuff because we enjoy the challenge, we enjoy doing it, when they enjoyment is crushed by people demanding things, what are we left with? A fucking sour taste in our mouths.

Kantanomo, Shock120, your the reason we don't discuss projects, your the reason we abandon projects. Your the ignorant, low life stench that surrounds the vile pond life that rots at the bottom of the community. You need to be spoon fed like a baby by other members, you never use a single brain cell in your work. Your a waste of space to this community, your input is meaningless, your output lacks any sort of creativity.

Why don't you go crawl back to wherever you came from, I heard HaloMaps is a noob fest, maybe you can be their polished turd.

[Donut]

yeah honestly Kantanomo, i have seen nothing but insults and other shitposts from all of your 70 posts on this forum. i have no idea why you think its ok to walk in and fuck with people right off the bat, but youre causing problems.

i hate to bandwagon here but fucks sake man. give it a break. you and your friend.

[Skarma]

Although I was hoping this was released because I had ideas for you ShadowSpartan, this gives me motivation to start working on the real time app aka forge I started years ago. w00t
Sorry people have to be dicks

[Kantanomo]

I love you all too.

[SnaFuBAR]

Kontanomo, shock, let me be the first to say, you're under observation. Don't let causing a problem end up being a personal problem (aka time off from the forum). I personally am completely sick of both of your attitude problems, and I begrudgingly allow you to keep posting.

So be smart, and make some good posts.

[Shock120]

Kantanomo, Shock120, your the reason we don't discuss projects, your the reason we abandon projects. Your the ignorant, low life stench that surrounds the vile pond life that rots at the bottom of the community. You need to be spoon fed like a baby by other members, you never use a single brain cell in your work. Your a waste of space to this community, your input is meaningless, your output lacks any sort of creativity.

Why don't you go crawl back to wherever you came from, I heard HaloMaps is a noob fest, maybe you can be their polished turd.Ki...~limited You dumbshit, I did what I could.
You're the fucking ignorant shit, I should not even be in your crappy post, Resinball isn't so why am I?

"My input is meaningless", like I care what you have to say, you couldn't give a shit about my output which ends up in the Halo 2 Vista section, but you only ever see it if an idiot bumps it.

Does the program release depend on people who hate the author? what about the people who don't?
ShadowSpartan did you forget there is hell of a lot more than 3 people who don't hate you, and because of us you are taking steps to kill what is left of this community.

ShadowSpartan, for doing this to people who don't deserve it, you disgust me, you are corrupted. A real time editor which will aid in tag creation helps all, and you choose not to release.

[neodos]

Short version:It seems you didn't have a childhood, you are showing your new toy to another kid and this is what happens

http://comps.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/IGS/IGS186/IS052-060.jpg

Damn its just so basic, yet no one can get over it, i guess no even me i have to argue once in a while, oh well it helps me praticing my english!(which is not my native language)
Long version(iamwastingmytime)

Its just sad to see this is same as halomods with some people that don't really mod but just want to full-fill their ego (http://rework3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=62685), claim their superioness over the community, throw at them their "achievements", call it innovatie, amazing, and announcing it for release soon (http://main.halodev.org/) and then expect to the community (http://forums.halodev.org/index.php?showforum=42) to adore them while just announcing it.

Now we all know, or at least i hope, how Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Love_Bees) and Bungie (http://kotaku.com/269543/halo-3-viral-marketing-campaign-begins-everyone-confused)love to hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCsdPszJLNQ) the Halo series, its called marketing, sadly this is something reflected on the modding community, on the side of those who are teasing (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?10458-Zteam-Update-yes-we-are-still-alive%21-28.8k-warning)and those who are waiting (http://forums.halodev.org/index.php?showforum=42) for what is teased (http://www.freewarebox.com/images/screenshot/bluescreen-screensaver_3362.png).

But that's not the way it should be, if you look at other modding communities, they share (http://www.garrysmod.org/downloads/) because that is in the definition of community (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=define%3Acommunity&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) and what is to be expected on a forum, it is a group of people who share in order to progress together and faster, and simply have fun together.

But why would you announce it if not for the hype (http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7065/No-OnlineLAN-Coop-for-Halo-2/)?
The more you hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cojjVDdtB8g) it the more the community expects from it to be good (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoqGLS1U6GQ).

But what is expected from the community is a release, right on without need to announce it for hype (http://rework3d.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=18049).

But when it doesn't happen because in fact said project isn't working that well (http://forums.remnantmods.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1737&hilit=inception#p27421) or is unfinished (http://www.modacity.net/forums/halodev.org) and can't be released in time you get bad feedback.


Yes the comunity is harsh and disrespectfull, but you're amongts young people sublimined by Bungie's World Domination, in other words hype'a'game + gamers = fans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af6RVVlzMAU)

And if you announce it expect to have the guts to assume your incapacity to take it, the whole community doesn't deserve punishement because a minority brags about your announcement planning changing, and if its a majority then you're doing it wrong, you get bad rep, get over it and don't do the same error again, don't announce, post your tool when its done.

PROBLEM SOLVED

[Kornman00]

Apparently no one remembers my verbal warning, even the people who were in the thread where it was posted (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?21957-Custom-maps-custom-vehicles-custom-etc...&p=548091&viewfull=1#post548091).

Anyone who wants to keep on flinging antimatter shit balls in this thread can earn themselves an instant ban. Stop the whining and bitching and do something productive with your lives. Or play some games. Fuck, I don't care, just shut up and stop clogging up these forums with your smelly shit posts or I'll have to flush you myself.

[Cagerrin]

Why is your response to accusations of "not releasing anything"(which is complete bull) to not release something you were planning to? I really don't get it.

Also, "don't announce, post your tool when its done".

e: augh, korn posted while I was typing this.

[neodos]

Apparently no one remembers my verbal warning, even the people who were in the thread where it was posted (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?21957-Custom-maps-custom-vehicles-custom-etc...&p=548091&viewfull=1#post548091).

Anyone who wants to keep on flinging antimatter shit balls in this thread can earn themselves an instant ban. Stop the whining and bitching and do something productive with your lives. Or play some games. Fuck, I don't care, just shut up and stop clogging up these forums with your smelly shit posts or I'll have to flush you myself.

I didn't use any such words as:
shit ball, bitching, fuck, shut up, shit.

This is my 3rd and last post for a while here i guess ;)

Btw i truly respect you Kornman, i think you're one of the most respectable halo app maker, though your opinion on this is as a moderator, but please ban me if i am wrong, let's make this place like halomods.

I think second solution is to ban apps announcements.

Cya

[Kornman00]

neodos, your post was actually thought out and had a sort of constructive criticism. I was mainly referring to the people who constantly are bitching about something someone else is doing and won't stop. Especially with the zteam nonsense and especially when it's just nonsense. If they want to get emotional/hot&heavy over something, I'll do just the same and wave my cursor over the infract buttons.

I think the saying about "if you butt hurts, stop sticking/letting dicks in it" fits the general tone here.

e: I can agree with your "don't announce, post your tool when its done" advice tip but then you'd have to do the same for maps and any other content. People post WIPs to get feedback. However, some people can just ruin the entire good feeling of making something for the original poster. What happens then? A few rotten apples spoil the bunch.

[Limited]

Seeing as no one bothered to read my post, I'll reiterate.

Kornman there is a number of reasons why we have to announce apps, firstly you get in a situation like we have in Shadows visitor messages, people just don't believe we do things, unless we show them proof. The other is reason is more of a productive reason, which you have done on many times. Your checking for how many people are willing to actually use the application, if we make some thing that literally no one will use, theres no point releasing. Additionally the community may have new ideas that can be incorporated into the application which would benefit everyone. Now if you look back, to the first sentence in this thread what does it say?


I have been working on a new application for quite some time now which includes a real time tag editor for Halo CE. I want to get people's opinions on the application, and if you guys would want an editor like this to be released. I'm open to suggestions on features to add to the memory editor, but there is no guarantee that it will be added, especially since summer classes are starting and my free time will be limited.
Yes, hes asking for ways to improve it, we cannot get this feedback, without actually talking to people, talking to the people that use the application.

[ShadowSpartan]

Why is your response to accusations of "not releasing anything"(which is complete bull) to not release something you were planning to? I really don't get it.
Because I am fed up with all of the idiots in the community, which are only growing in numbers. I don't care anymore, I will work on my own personal stuff and that is it.


However, some people can just ruin the entire good feeling of making something for the original poster. What happens then? A few rotten apples spoil the bunch.
This. It has happened in the past for zteam, and guess what, it happened again with my project.

[Kornman00]

(@Limited, read my post edit, I know)

[neodos]

e: I can agree with your "don't announce, post your tool when its done" advice tip but then you'd have to do the same for maps and any other content. People post WIPs to get feedback. However, some people can just ruin the entire good feeling of making something for the original poster. What happens then? A few rotten apples spoil the bunch.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, while i do agree with that for maps, which is more artistic and receives critics for visual appeal and not the gameplay (because can't play it with if the creator only post wip images, that's why most famous mods are those with fancy effects and massive explosions), so its only going to get critics on the graphics and not aspects like gameplay, this is why most mods are not really enjoyable to play.

Same goes for the application, you don't have much to give some criticism based on a list of features to come, which you can't try yourself, so your expectations are set to these announced features, people gets super excited about it...
But to give real criticism you'd have to get your hands on it, so i wouldn't really compare it to a WIP.

A WIP for an application would be posting a beta but public, and then yes you might get some harsh feedback, which is part of what has to be, depending on how well your app works so far, with also some constructive critism(a bug report system) and encouragements which will keep you on track and hopefully motivated.

That would be constructive, these announcements are not.
And to be honest deep down inside we all love teasing stuff we create, i do understand people teasing, but this poll is sort of stupid.

Zteam should release their apps, fully working or not ;)

[Limited]

Zteam should release their apps, fully working or not ;)
I've done this in the past, with Keihatsui and Yomama (Locke), and the problem is it is even more trouble than its worth. I wanted to get an unfinished app out there, people could use what was available at that point. The problem is people get on your back, they complain features don't work, they complain theres issues with it, it won't work on their system but does on other peoples. That kind of thing.

I've found application developers are more tolerant of bugs and missing parts in the code, "If you press buttons in certain order, it will exception Halo". A developer will just avoid doing that, if they accidentally press it they will just laugh at their forgetfulness, this is not the case for 'regular' users. They will get very pissed off that it crashed caused them problems.

Not many successful projects, are announced and released in the exact same post.

[neodos]

Post sources too (though i know that's a hard one for the programmers), someone might fix it for you later, for halo 2 Entity has been fixed by many different people along time and it got better and better =)

[Hunter]

Limited... you just watched at least an hour of my time with FUCKING SNAKE! in your signiture :P haha

Also, people abusing ShadowSpartan, fuck off.

[DarkHalo003]

My only concern would be how stable it would be. Small things like shaders would be okay (assuming the shaders aren't overhauled), but things like .scenario_structure would concern me in their potential to cause exceptions. This is all I can really put down on the table for feedback though. I'm not a master programmer or anything and I don't work with CE code like App Developers for the game do.

Otherwise, I like the fact that you can change the projectile and attributes of weapons in the Editor. That is definitely a plus side.

[supersniper]

Hate to see this happen, i was actually looking forward to this release.
Yeah i'm friends with kantanomo, shock120, and resinball but honestly clean up your posting or gtfo.

[staticchanger]

Hate to see this happen, I've been stoked for this for the past month even dusted off my old hard-drive to work on some once abandoned mods again. Oh well. Honestly Shadow just ignore these guys there are plenty of people like me who would genuinely appreciate your work. I don't understand the whole situation, but if you've already worked hard on the app why not release it? Keeping it to yourself just because 4 or 5 people with literal junior high emotional capacities are being what they are seems like a waste. But you did the work so its yours to do with as you please, but CE could really use something as helpful as this. I definitely commend you for trying.

[SnaFuBAR]

to let you all know we are sitting here laughing at you because you take this shit way to seriously.
sitting here laughing because you're banned.

You're a bunch of sissy little school girls that get their panties all bunched up over the simplest of shit... :gonk:
Cry me a river, Just drop it and move the fuck on... :haw:
you too. you don't sign up to back up your buddies causing shit.

buhbye for you as well, shock.

[SnaFuBAR]

Now that I've taken care of that, do any more of the little group feel like they can just keep causing problems? Because i guarantee i'll perma you for signing up to start or continue shit.

Proceed with discussion, or, lock it if you want no more discussion, shadow.


E: apparently, some people just don't get that if they sign up for drama, they get permabanned, their post gets deleted, and then it's all just wasted time. Give it up, children.

[Inferno]

Now that I've taken care of that, do any more of the little group feel like they can just keep causing problems? Because i guarantee i'll perma you for signing up to start or continue shit.

Proceed with discussion, or, lock it if you want no more discussion, shadow.


E: apparently, some people just don't get that if they sign up for drama, they get permabanned, their post gets deleted, and then it's all just wasted time. Give it up, children.

You banned Kantanomo? + rep and <3's.

[Choking Victim]

I disbanded from zteam long before Shadow announced this project as something he was publicly releasing, he decided to release after I left, since the project would go unused without a full team to use it. Our team was dead before this conflict started.

In my honest opinion, you're being way too sensitive about what three 13 - 15 year old's said about a video game modding team, but I digress. When I saw you were publicly releasing this, I thought it was good that you would be leaving something behind in our legacy rather than all of our vague immature conflicts that have been spawned around our team's name. I'm disappointed, but I'm confident CAD will keep our name alive with our content in penguin's upcoming map (the Pit).

This will be my only post in this thread, I'm not looking to start a fight.

[UnevenElefant5]

Sad to see this, I love tagging particles and this would have made the whole process so much simpler and faster. I don't think it's fair that a few people should be able to ruin it for everyone else, yes there are people in the community that don't deserve it or whatever, but other people DO, and they shouldn't be denied the opportunity to have a great app like this because a few people have a problem with it. I think you're taking everything too seriously, if some people have a problem with you or your team or whatever, oh well. Don't let that ruin it for you. There's always gonna be someone who doesn't like what you're doing for whatever reason, but that shouldn't stop you from doing it.

[L0d3x]

I'm just gonna drop this in here as well:

It's too bad you aren't going to release this, as I'm sure alot of people would have good uses for this, including me. Finetuning vehicle performance and ai actor parameters would be so much easier if this were available.

I personally think it's a bit stupid to bring this up and not release it merely because of a few trouble makers, it's the internet for crying out loud. But oh well...

[malolo420]

What he^ said, this app actually gave me hope on finishing a project I've been working on for the past 4 or so years.
I feel bad that a couple of kids got to you that badly from the internet.
Look at first and second page. Look how excited you made people with this.
And think how many other modders who didn't post here that you gave a boner too.
Then to take it all away. You give us a boner only to let us not reach climax and get blue balls.

[GAIGHER]

UP O_o
Not even a beta ?
It seems correct, no ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiF-kxCgETs&feature=player_embedded

Sry for up...

[Dwood]

UP O_o
Not even a beta ?
It seems correct, no ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiF-kxCgETs&feature=player_embedded

Sry for up...

Shadowspartan gave up. quit making it because of Kantonomo and another individual

[JackRabbit72380]

please dont mind the asses on here and release your work to the public we could realy use this great tool!

[Donut]

I applaud your dedication to this game, but I can't help but feel like its slightly misplaced when you're bumping a 2 year old thread.

[WaeV]

I don't mean to thread-jack, but I've been working on a similar live-editing tool for Halo PC/Full. You can see a demo video in the latest post (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?24911-WIP-Quickbeam&p=649307&viewfull=1#post649307).

Currently I'm focusing on PC/Full compatibility (since that's the version of Halo my community focuses on), but I am interested in Open Sauce and may later adjust the editor to support CE and/or Open Sauce.