Gameplay Design (tutorial)

[Tucker933]

-redacted-

[Limited]

I'm sorry Tucker but I really think you have no idea what your talking about. Your post contradicts itself and parts are just plain wrong. Fun is not simple to accomplish, its also nearly impossible to test longevity.

Balance can’t wait till the end, and it cannot be accomplished till the end.

Also keep in mind fairness is not balance....Balance is a careful mix of Fun, Fairness, and Longevity - Huh?

Also I wouldnt really call this a tutorial, more like an introduction or advice.

[Pooky]

Well I wouldn't really call this a tutorial so much as advice like Limited said. Also while some of what you've said sounds like solid advice I have to disagree with the idea that there should never be an all purpose weapon. It sounds like you're describing a typical Halo style FPS game here (something you may wanna be more specific about, Checkers can be considered a multiplayer game too). These types of games practically require an all purpose weapon to round out the gameplay.

Halo 1 is a perfect example of this. The Pistol is a powerful, all round weapon that can work in any situation. Other weapons are more powerful than it in specialized situations, but the Pistol is always your fallback. Take it out of the equation, and the player with the better weapon would always win in any encounter.

[Tucker933]

Fun is not simple to accomplish, its also nearly impossible to test longevity.

I suppose that first part depends on your personal abilities.

However I do agree with you about the impossibility of testing gameplay longevity during development, but I never did say it was testable. However with enough experience in knowing what goes into multiplayer encounters and what players look for in its content, it is quite possible to consistently create gameplay with good longevity.



Balance can’t wait till the end, and it cannot be accomplished till the end.

Just that. The balancing process needs to a part of gameplay development from the get go, however you will never be able to achieve balance till gameplay content is complete.




Also I wouldnt really call this a tutorial, more like an introduction or advice.

Fair enough.




I have to disagree with the idea that there should never be an all purpose weapon...
...Halo 1 Pistol is a perfect example of this.

Halo 1 is in fact a very unbalanced game.

[Pooky]

Halo 1 is in fact a very unbalanced game.

Yeah okay, you've got no idea what you're talking about.

[Tucker933]

Yeah okay, you've got no idea what you're talking about.

Nor does Bungie's current lead sandbox designer evidently.

[Pooky]

Nor does Bungie's current lead sandbox designer evidently.

Well... in a way they really do. Bungie is out to make money, not to make a deep and skill based game that only hardcore players enjoy. Noobs make up the majority of online gamers, so Bungie makes games that appeal to them. Games where any idiot can waltz in and get tons of kills because the game is designed to make everyone equal.

It's a good business strategy, so you can't call the designers incompetent, but it sure doesn't make a satisfying game for people like me.

[supersniper]

i call it mumbo jumbo

[Tucker933]

Well... in a way they really do. Bungie is out to make money, not to make a deep and skill based game that only hardcore players enjoy. Noobs make up the majority of online gamers, so Bungie makes games that appeal to them. Games where any idiot can waltz in and get tons of kills because the game is designed to make everyone equal.

It's a good business strategy, so you can't call the designers incompetent, but it sure doesn't make a satisfying game for people like me.


It's more of their new style of gameplay rather than unbalance. I do disagree with the direction their new games have gone in, but I wouldn't call them unbalanced.

[Pooky]

I never used the word balance once in any of my posts :S

TBQH I think total balance is an unattainable design goal and not an altogether desirable one. As you said for any multiplayer action game some variety is a requirement, and the essence of balance is that nothing is overall more effective than anything else. Halo 3 tried this, the end result was some fucking boring ass multiplayer in small team infantry only games.

[Tucker933]

I never used the word balance once in any of my posts :S

Your reference to my reference, referenced unbalance, which you then referenced to later Bungie games =p
It was implied.


As you said for any multiplayer action game some variety is a requirement, and the essence of balance is that nothing is overall more effective than anything else. Halo 3 tried this, the end result was some fucking boring ass multiplayer in small team infantry only games.

The definition of balance varies, which is why I outlined mine.

[Pooky]

I dunno, this whole 'balance' idea is really very ambiguous. I wouldn't consider Halo 1 to be unbalanced in the sense that no weapon is always more useful then all other weapons in every situation. Everything has a role and a purpose, except maybe the plasma rifle.

[Tucker933]

The whole idea of a universal weapon breaks any sense of balance, by the definition I outlined. Yes it's equal and fair but there is no real gameplay to it if there is only two pieces that matter. Let me pull up a slide from a presentation Jaime Griesemer did on sandbox design.

http://www.tucker933.com/ftp/TEMP/fair.jpg

The whole presentation is a few hundred pages if you're interested I can link it, but pretending you aren't that picture should be enough to make sense of the point.

[Pooky]

You seem to have completely missed everything I actually said, so I guess I'll reiterate it. The Pistol in Halo 1 is a weapon that's functional in every situation but isn't dominant in every situation. That's what an all purpose weapon is. If you don't have one of those, again the person with the better weapon will always win in every encounter. Every weapon and item in Halo 1 is useful for something and if that doesn't make it 'balanced' then balance can fuck off and die.

[Limited]

Oh I now see the problem. You read the presentation file the guy at Bungie made, and tried to copy what it said without understanding it at all. Your throwing words around without understanding what they mean.

The most popular game in the world of all time is Chess. We all recognise the queen has more of an impact in the game, than say a pawn. But that doesn't mean a pawn is useless, the pawn actually plays a vital role in the game even though they can only move in one direction, and 'kill' other pieces in a diagonal direction of one spare.

Chess is not a 'fair' game - a queen vs a pawn there will only be one winner. But chess still remains a perfectly balanced game.

[Tucker933]

You read the presentation file the guy at Bungie made, and tried to copy what it said without understanding it at all. Your throwing words around without understanding what they mean.

You've totally nailed it oh knowledgeable one. Cause I have nothing better to do, nor real experience on the subject.

[Limited]

Then why not just simple post his presentation, and comment about what your thoughts on it were...THAT would be more of a tutorial.

Your playing with fire here Tucker.

[Tucker933]

Then why not just simple post his presentation, and comment about what your thoughts on it were...THAT would be more of a tutorial.

Your playing with fire here Tucker.

You didn't understand my sarcasm, clearly.

I didn't rip anything from this presentation, and for you to make such a claim without any more evidence than an aspect of it relating to a later point I was trying to get across is wishful ignorance.

Everything I've written in the OP is from my own experience.

[DarkHalo003]

And what does your experience entail Tucker? I think by explaining that you'll have more ground to stand on.

[Tucker933]

I'm not a part of the CE community so none of my work would be recognized by name here, so I'll link directly to a couple of my latest released projects.

http://www.tucker933.com/?page_id=14
http://www.tucker933.com/?page_id=51

Others can be found in the Advanced Mods section on Modhalo:
http://www.modhalo.net/index.php?/forum/101-advanced-mods/

[Limited]

Just what I thought. Your a modder, not a game developer. Yes you do need to design gameplay, but only a very very small fraction of what your babbling on about actually counts towards your work.

[Tucker933]

Your a modder, not a game developer.

Nor are you or anyone else who works with CE. The current gap between what modern HPC modding tools offer compared to HCE is minimal, especially from a gameplay standpoint. Yes, I am not a developer, but this isn't a community for developers. We're both modders but with different tools. So I would say the content is relevant.

[Limited]

I am a game developer.

[Tucker933]

You work with CE or do you just hang out here?

[Limited]

All of the above, I chill out here, I make hacks. I make games.

[Tucker933]

Then I apologize for the statement. However the HCE community is no more a developer community than the HPC end, so the rest of my point stands.

[Higuy]

You honestly sound like a person who dosen't really know what real gameplay is. Halo 1, is infact balanced. Balance isn't just the design of the weapons either, alot of other factors fall into place. And even then, people who make the say that the pistol is completley overpowered is idiotic. Almost every weapon has a core function, and most of them can over power another if your tactical enough when using it.


Nor are you or anyone else who works with CE. The current gap between what modern HPC modding tools offer compared to HCE is minimal, especially from a gameplay standpoint. Yes, I am not a developer, but this isn't a community for developers. We're both modders but with different tools. So I would say the content is relevant.

What he means is that you don't do a whole lot of actual gameplay design. Like I said above, gameplay isnt always the balancing of weapons or just moving them over a bit. You need to know how to use them in an enviroment, where they should be placed, and HOW the environment needs to be designed around it them for the gameplay to work. Every map has core functions, even if its a custom map like Mudslide. (http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=528). It's even asymmetric, and its has lots of things, from driving, sniping, stealth, and interior portions of the bases. Another map is like Wartorn Cove 3, a map that has been praised for its core features of driving from base to base, sneaking into the interiors, sniping from afar, etc... Weapons aren't essential to a players flight, there essential to killing the other players, however the environment can make it hard or easy to assist in that.

I have worked in this engine farther than some and less than others, but I've created some decent, well playing maps in my time, some even played in tourneys by HPC players. Creating a balanced, fun map is very hard work, and no map is ever going to be perfect. A weapon will never be balanced the way it should be, created perfectly or any of that, becuase an environment to the player is always changing while he or she is using the weapon. Every weapon has a role, and one can over power another. Think of it like rock paper scissors, but instead your just throwing more variables and rules in.

I did a "tutorial" similar to you once Tucker, except for Single - Player. http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?21959-Higuys-Guide-to-Single-Player-Mapping

[Tucker933]

You honestly sound like a person who dosen't really know what real gameplay is. Halo 1, is infact balanced. Balance isn't just the design of the weapons either, alot of other factors fall into place. And even then, people who make the say that the pistol is completley overpowered is idiotic. Almost every weapon has a core function, and most of them can over power another if your tactical enough when using it.

What he means is that you don't do a whole lot of actual gameplay design. Like I said above, gameplay isnt always the balancing of weapons or just moving them over a bit. You need to know how to use them in an enviroment, where they should be placed, and HOW the environment needs to be designed around it them for the gameplay to work. Every map has core functions, even if its a custom map like Mudslide. (http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=528). It's even asymmetric, and its has lots of things, from driving, sniping, stealth, and interior portions of the bases. Another map is like Wartorn Cove 3, a map that has been praised for its core features of driving from base to base, sneaking into the interiors, sniping from afar, etc... Weapons aren't essential to a players flight, there essential to assist in maneuvering the environment and killing the other players.

I have worked in this engine farther than some and less than others, but I've created some decent, well playing maps in my time, some even played in tourneys by HPC players. Creating a balanced, fun map is very hard work, and no map is ever going to be perfect. A weapon will never be balanced the way it should be, created perfectly or any of that, becuase an environment to the player is always changing while he or she is using the weapon. Every weapon has a role, and one can over power another. Think of it like rock paper scissors, but instead your just throwing more variables and rules in.

This is much of what I was actually trying to get across in the OP, without making an essay on it. I'm glad you've elaborated upon it, but I'm quite aware, and I do make use.

[DarkHalo003]

I am a game developer.
Out of curiosity, what games have or are you developing, or is still being developed behind closed doors?

@Tucker: What you do does not qualify your statement in the way you intend it to. You haven't done enough to equate what balance truly is. Make your own map with its own unique weapons. Then have a group of people test it with you. You will then start to find out what balance is. And knowing what balance is compared to unbalance is a totally different story. Something can feel unbalanced and something can be enjoyable, but balance is built from the ground up as a developer.

[Tucker933]

Make your own map with its own unique weapons. Then have a group of people test it with you.

Which is exactly what I've done for 9 out of the 10 projects I've released >.>

[Higuy]

Which is exactly what I've done for 9 out of the 10 projects I've released >.>
They weren't custom maps though. Just modifications.

[Tucker933]

They weren't custom maps though. Just modifications.

While level design greatly affects sandbox design, they are completely different fields, a field I don't work in as I have no modeling abilities.
You don't need a new level to create completely different gameplay.

[neuro]

tucker, you're an idiot.

Which is exactly what I've done for 9 out of the 10 projects I've released >.>
don't make me laugh.




They weren't custom maps though. Just modifications.

Nor are you or anyone else who works with CE. The current gap between what modern HPC modding tools offer compared to HCE is minimal, especially from a gameplay standpoint. Yes, I am not a developer, but this isn't a community for developers. We're both modders but with different tools. So I would say the content is relevant.

you base this on what?


you've got no clue what an ACTUAL game designer does.

protip, there's one working at the desk next to me at Ubisoft, and he he spends alot of time playing games on facebook.
not even joking.

[Tucker933]

you've got no clue what an ACTUAL game designer does.

Did I pretend to? It appears I'm missing something crucial here.

[neuro]

just missing the fact you're an idiot rly, that's about it.
i appreciate what you're trying to do in the thread, share what youve learnt, but you're doing it from the wrong angle.

[Tucker933]

Kay

[Higuy]

While level design greatly affects sandbox design, they are completely different fields, a field I don't work in as I have no modeling abilities.
You don't need a new level to create completely different gameplay.

They are however severely limiting. You will never ever get as much as you could when you make your own BSP. And just becuase you dont have modeling abilities dosen't mean you cant gain them.

[DarkHalo003]

They are however severely limiting. You will never ever get as much as you could when you make your own BSP. And just becuase you dont have modeling abilities dosen't mean you cant gain them.
This. You did not model your Phoenix Map. You did not model your Parallax Redux map. You only modded the original scenario files. You don't understand what I mean because you haven't done what I meant. Modelling your own map will show you what I mean. Until you do, you will not understand my comment.

[Pooky]

I have worked in this engine farther than some and less than others, but I've created some decent, well playing maps in my time, some even played in tourneys by HPC players. Creating a balanced, fun map is very hard work, and no map is ever going to be perfect. A weapon will never be balanced the way it should be, created perfectly or any of that, becuase an environment to the player is always changing while he or she is using the weapon. Every weapon has a role, and one can over power another. Think of it like rock paper scissors, but instead your just throwing more variables and rules in.

See, this is the sound of someone who actually knows what they're talking about. If the rep system still existed I'd use it.

[Tucker933]

You don't understand what I mean because you haven't done what I meant. Modelling your own map will show you what I mean. Until you do, you will not understand my comment.

The topic is about gameplay design, not level design. I understand your points, but to say because I don't work in level design that I'm not a good sandbox designer has no grounds. These are as I stated above, two completely different fields requiring completely different skill sets.

I like love how everyone is so quick to criticize when as far as gameplay is concerned this community in particular either recreates existing weapons and vehicles from different games, and throwing that on a new level, or just plain old keeping the stock sandbox and building new levels around that. The only interesting work I've seen since Coldsnap as far as sandbox modifications are from Ifafudafi, and he's just one guy. The sandbox makes gameplay, the levels support the gameplay. It's great if you can build new levels when you want for your sandbox, but it's not necessary when you just want to build a new gameplay experience.

The content I build for my projects, highlighting upon Phoenix and Parallax do take existing stock maps but the gameplay is thrown in a completely new direction with the new, diverse and original sandbox. Better accomplished and balanced than 95% of the CE maps out there.
This topic gets so much controversy because of course everyone has their own mindset about how a game should be built. There is no exact science, but I am sharing methods I've used that have proven to consistently be extremely successful. They aren't just unproven ideals.

[Pooky]

This topic gets a lot of criticism because your OP just sounds like a bunch of rambling haphazardly pieced together from various Bungie statements on multiplayer shooter design.

[Hotrod]

What you seem to forget is that gameplay revolves around both level design and sandbox design. Let's assume you have a nicely balanced weapon set. Now let's stick those weapons on a map with a horrible design (such as Sword Base from Reach). As we all know, Sword Base is a fucking horrible map since everybody just camps the yellow lift area. No matter what you do with the weapon balance, the map (and therefore the gameplay) will always be bad unless you change it in some way.

Now let's take the opposite, such as Halo 3 where the BR was an overpowered weapon that destroyed in every situation. I don't call it an all-purpose weapon since that would imply that specialized weapons like the AR would beat it in their fields, which they wouldn't. Even on a great map (let's take Guardian), it still isn't great gameplay due to the fact that one weapon rules them all.

And now let's stick a weapon set with good balance on a map that's well designed. Halo 1 Hang 'Em High. I'm not going to explain the balance of the Halo 1 weapons, since it's been done several times already, but HEH is a map where you can fight either in CQC or at ranged with neither being a better option than the other. Anybody who's played that map will most likely agree. If you want to play around with the Assault Rifle, you can get to the enemy base quickly enough with some cover from above. But if you want to snipe instead, you can stick to the top while still not being invincible or being at too much of a disadvantage.

Point is, gameplay design relies on both weapon balance and map design. Coming from somebody who's both modded Halo 1 PC multiplayer in similar ways that you have and created multiplayer maps (Forge maps, but they still count) I can honestly say that just modding a weapon set around a map that's already nice and balanced is much easier than creating a map around a balanced weapon set. I can't even imagine having to do both while keeping fun, fair, balanced gameplay.

[Tucker933]

If I called it sandbox design too few people would know what I was talking about. Which is why the topic is called gameplay design, as level design and gameplay are rarely considered the same, I figured it would be a fair enough trade in terms. As I pointed about before, this isn't a community of developers, even if there are a few, surprisingly.
The OP only covers sandbox design.

[Higuy]

The topic is about gameplay design, not level design. I understand your points, but to say because I don't work in level design that I'm not a good sandbox designer has no grounds. These are as I stated above, two completely different fields requiring completely different skill sets.

I like love how everyone is so quick to criticize when as far as gameplay is concerned this community in particular either recreates existing weapons and vehicles from different games, and throwing that on a new level, or just plain old keeping the stock sandbox and building new levels around that. The only interesting work I've seen since Coldsnap as far as sandbox modifications are from Ifafudafi, and he's just one guy. The sandbox makes gameplay, the levels support the gameplay. It's great if you can build new levels when you want for your sandbox, but it's not necessary when you just want to build a new gameplay experience.

The content I build for my projects, highlighting upon Phoenix and Parallax do take existing stock maps but the gameplay is thrown in a completely new direction with the new, diverse and original sandbox. Better accomplished and balanced than 95% of the CE maps out there.
This topic gets so much controversy because of course everyone has their own mindset about how a game should be built. There is no exact science, but I am sharing methods I've used that have proven to consistently be extremely successful. They aren't just unproven ideals.

Oh man, originality! Just becuase something is original in your opinion, dosen't mean we should be praising it for its originality like you put it out to be. Very creative and new gameplay can be made with just level design. Like everyone has already said, gameplay and level design go exactly hand in hand. Your not going to make a good new map if your using a previous one (that has been DESIGNED and POLISHED around a different tagset than yours) and changing all the weapons abilities around.

And like everyone has said in the past, Halo 1 is an extremely balanced game, however you have failed to realize that.

[Pooky]

And like everyone has said in the past, Halo 1 is an extremely balanced game, however you have failed to realize that.

Hell, a lot of Halo 1's perceived weapon balance issues come more from the maps themselves than the actual weapons. For instance Blood Gulch, a map which consists almost entirely of medium range combat which is the Pistol's specialty.

[Higuy]

Agreed yeah. One of the most balanced maps out of all, in my opinion, would be Danger Canyon.

Another note: The pistol seemed to be more designed around for Single Player.

[DarkHalo003]

Agreed yeah. One of the most balanced maps out of all, in my opinion, would be Danger Canyon.

Another note: The pistol seemed to be more designed around for Single Player.
Oh Danger Canyon. Though I hate those hills (it's where I always die lol), everything else has a pleasant memory. Especially when both teams are camping on the tunnels that connect the bases into the interior structure. Oh how the Flamethrower and the Grenade Spam is just amusing.

And I agree with Higuy. The pistol really seemed like it was supposed to be primarily for Single Player. It was incredibly useful for Grunts and Jackal (and Hunters) and could be an utter bludgeon for Elites. I don't mind the 5sk of the Pistol, but the 3sk has always bothered me, maybe it's because I enjoy drug-out battles.

[Pooky]

Agreed yeah. One of the most balanced maps out of all, in my opinion, would be Danger Canyon.

Another note: The pistol seemed to be more designed around for Single Player.

Yeah, I don't think there's any denying that Halo 1 was designed entirely around SP with the resulting MP being almost completely accidental. I call bullshit on Bungie's claims that some last minute code change increased the Pistol's power.