SURPRISE

[Rainbow Dash]

terrans dominated mlg

balancedgame.exe

[CN3089]

SURPRISE

selentic's whining

badposter.you

[CN3089]

wait you're protoss yeah they kinda suck right now

[Zeph]

In the meantime, zerg won the more prestigious GSL. MLG finals through grand finals didn't even involve two code S players duking it out.

[Phopojijo]

Yeah, Protoss needs a buff (lol).

It is pretty damn balanced... the problem is that people are getting very innovative so strategies shift every once in a while. I'm interested to see what will happen when Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void get released.

[n00b1n8R]

SURPRISE, most of the Koreans who entered were Terran, guess who was in the top 8 :downs:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l183/n00b1n8R/bfh.png

[TeeKup]

Zerg...:iamafag:

[Phobias]

Game is fairly balanced, learn to play your race.

[ODX]

The thing about balancing is Blizzard looks more toward the professional level when they tweak things, and not the lower leagues so that makes for some units being overpowered (and therefore, the entire race) since lower leagues are slower to react/bad at the game.

[Rainbow Dash]

Game is fairly balanced, learn to play your race.

That's funny, blizzard seems to think otherwise???



DB: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
We've fixed a lot of that. The other complaint we're coming back to that was frustrating was the four gate rush in Protoss vs. Protoss. We've done some fixes and it was great. Within the first three days, everyone stopped doing it and it was like, "Arrgh, Blizzard nerfed it! Don't do it anymore." We were like, "We don't think it was that bad." Sure enough, a week later the community was fine with it. PVP was still not as diverse as we wanted it to be; so we'd like to fix that. We're still studying this stuff. Things change so rapidly. We had multiple times now where we've gone and put out a patch. The patch goes through quality assurance and through localization so that it releases throughout multiple regions at the same time.
It's a lengthy process from deciding which balances we want to do to the point where it got live in the community. We've done nerfs to the bunkers and the rushes are no longer in the game by the time the patch goes live. We're like, "Do we need this? Eh…alright, let's just put in what we thought was good at the time and just go with it." The dynamics change so quickly that sometimes it's hard for us to keep up. The fans are still learning so much from the game and figuring out what works. I don't know how much balanced the game is six months from now to a year, but our internal members that checked the win/loss percentage in all regions are very positive except for Grandmaster Korea, which shows an advantage to Terran.
However, we've heard from Korean pro gamers and casual players that this is more of a cultural issue than anything else. Part of the factor is that Terrans do the easiest early-game rushes and they're the most defendable against them too; Koreans do the most rushing when compared to the rest of the world. But I don't know; it could all be lies. It could be, "Oh, it's broken, but [the dev team] did not know that yet." The Europeans, the Americans, and the Chinese haven't figured it out yet.
On the plus side, specifically in the e-sports scene, the win-losses are pretty good in all tournaments. We've seen lots of champions for different races. We've seen Terran, Protoss, and Zerg players win in America, Europe, Korea, Southeast Asia, and China; that's good diversity. If suddenly we get a month of Zerg wins every match, it would be a total disaster. Keep your fingers crossed; things have been going real well for us.

gl hf gg wp gl in the finals


The thing about balancing is Blizzard looks more toward the professional level when they tweak things, and not the lower leagues so that makes for some units being overpowered (and therefore, the entire race) since lower leagues are slower to react/bad at the game.

Yes there's absolutely no reason why at the proffesional level the majority of pro players (especially koreans) pick Terran, there's no reason why MLG, NASL, and the TSL were all won by Terrans, no way, game's balanced stfu and lrn 2 adapt

[ODX]

Buddy I wasn't trying to pick a fight so don't tell me to "stfu and lrn 2 adapt." I was simply stating how I believe Blizzard goes about balancing and how it kind of works out where one thing may be balanced at a high level because the players can counter it, but then at a lower level it's much harder to deal with and therefore would be considered "overpowered."

[InflowQFT]

Hate to break it to you bros, but the game is far from balanced. Game mechanics wise, Terran an edge over the other races.

[Rainbow Dash]

Buddy I wasn't trying to pick a fight so don't tell me to "stfu and lrn 2 adapt." I was simply stating how I believe Blizzard goes about balancing and how it kind of works out where one thing may be balanced at a high level because the players can counter it, but then at a lower level it's much harder to deal with and therefore would be considered "overpowered."

I wasn't telling you to stfu and lrn 2 adapt, I was making a joke about all the people who play the game and say it's balanced, and then spew that argument out, you know, like you just did right there?

[n00b1n8R]

Did the ZvZ finals in GSL happen a year ago already sel?

The thing about balancing is Blizzard looks more toward the professional level when they tweak things, and not the lower leagues so that makes for some units being overpowered (and therefore, the entire race) since lower leagues are slower to react/bad at the game.
Except that's wrong. They look at how things perform across all leagues and (try) to balance it across them all.

[InflowQFT]

On a very fundamental basis, Terran has advantages that would theoretically come up in all levels of play. This idea that Blizzard is trying to balance it moreso for the pros seems ridiculous- You have to examine this in terms of gameplay- the cost, the use, the mechanics of the unit, and what not against races of a similar skill. Just because 2rax all-in doesn't necessarily seem to get the pros as often doesn't mean that there's something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with Terran such that their most efficient way (This remains to be seen because the game is still pretty young and is being developed strategically) is to open up with what should be an all-in build, do massive amounts of damage, and if they should lose, not actually lose the game. Don't get me wrong- I have no issue with Terrans opening with a 2rax as their standard build- because most of the time they don't know how to micro at lower leagues anyways, so you can easily fend it off. That being said though, it doesn't make it anymore balanced that Terran can do that, lose his early pressure, and just go herpderping back into the game like he lost his scouting scv.

Blizzard can't simply say- oh the pros can handle it just stop bitching- because this idea that you can counter something just because you're a pro that lower levels can't doesn't mean the advantage doesn't exist on a fundamental level.

[Zeph]

I wasn't telling you to stfu and lrn 2 adapt, I was making a joke about all the people who play the game and say it's balanced, and then spew that argument out, you know, like you just did right there?

hurfffff

I'm gonna cater to MLG because they're loud and obnoxious and think they know game design. I see that worked out well for Reach. One of the worst gameplay experiences I've experienced lately.

As mentioned, it's just that terran has been able to find many key timing attacks that are early not once, but time after time. Over time, counters are found to it and the game evolves yet again. Remember when two rax used to be unbeatable?

I only see one thing wrong with terran and that's mules not having a cooldown. That's got nothing to do with units, only economy. Giving them a cooldown would put them in line with other races being that the more command centers you have the more economic potential you have.

[InflowQFT]

hurfffff

I'm gonna cater to MLG because they're loud and obnoxious and think they know game design. I see that worked out well for Reach. One of the worst gameplay experiences I've experienced lately.

As mentioned, it's just that terran has been able to find many key timing attacks that are early not once, but time after time. Over time, counters are found to it and the game evolves yet again. Remember when two rax used to be unbeatable?

I only see one thing wrong with terran and that's mules not having a cooldown. That's got nothing to do with units, only economy. Giving them a cooldown would put them in line with other races being that the more command centers you have the more economic potential you have.

I don't think this is just about the "timings"- the frustration is that Terran is able to harass or go for really early aggression, and have a significantly little setback compared to if say, Protoss went for warp prisms to get a drop. etc etc.

But I absolutely LOVE you for mentioning the MULE. People seem to forget all about that and how ridiculously imba the MULE is without a proper cooldown. It's ridiculous.

[n00b1n8R]

Mules are fine and allow T to keep up economically early game with protoss and zerg (chrono probes and lava respectively).
In late game they give terran an economic advantage on even bases compared to other advantages P and Z have (rebuilding armies is much easier for P and Z to do).

For fucks sake, if you want to play an RTS where all races are identical go play WC2.

[ODX]

I was reading a post on Bnet where a guy was saying a bunch of things he thinks should be done for the next big patch. Some were just dumb, but an interesting one was reducing the amount of energy that Command Centers have so you can't stockpile MULEs and such. He went on to say how you should never even go above 100 energy anyway if your macro is going well, and that giving the Terran an easy way out of a shithole with MULEs would really be the only thing that goes away (which it needs to).

[InflowQFT]

Mules are fine and allow T to keep up economically early game with protoss and zerg (chrono probes and lava respectively).
In late game they give terran an economic advantage on even bases compared to other advantages P and Z have (rebuilding armies is much easier for P and Z to do).

For fucks sake, if you want to play an RTS where all races are identical go play WC2.

Seriously? Mules NEED a fucking cool down. Your argument saying that it helps them keep up doesn't change if they have a cool down. How is it at all fair if a terran decides to focus on his micro and falls behind on dropping MULES, and can just drop 2 of em at once when he gets back to his main? Can you inject twice? Can you Chrono twice? (you can but it won't affect the building) And if you've seen the effects of a mule over time, its effectiveness is much much more than chornoboost throughout the game. If you've seen PvT, after a while, Terran stops making any scvs, and then drops ONLY mules from the 4 stockpiled OC's he has. It makes them highly cost effective especially in the late game, and then also cuts their supply- which Zerg or Protoss can't do. And rebuilding armies is a matter of macro and opinion. I've seen 200/200 armies get destroyed and then rebuilt in an instant by all races. It just depends.

@ODX- Just add a cool down to make it more in line with the other two races. Sure you can just go ahead and reduce energy, but then that would just mean that they can still stockpile lategame with a billion mules. Just make a cooldown so that if it goes to late game, you can't just drop mules 4 or 5 at a time just because.

[n00b1n8R]

Terran has something that's really good that the other races don't so its unfair. Any advantages the other races have over T are irrelevant because Terran has this one ability that is unfair.

Oh, OK.
why the do I post about SC here, you're all crybabies

[InflowQFT]

Uh, if you look at the other races, all three have a macro mechanic- two of them are in line with each other- Terran's has an unfair advantage over the other two. And I didn't say that it doesn't mean Terran can't have advantages over the other races, or that the other races can't have advantages, but the issue is that this advantage UNBALANCES the game. Instead of relying on the player's skill, it's a mechanical advantage whose implications are too easily dismissed by. "It's their advantage leave them alone." We're talking about an economic advantage that let's players get away with bullshit. Do you really think putting a cool down on MULES will fuck over Terran?

[Bodzilla]

Mules are fine and allow T to keep up economically early game with protoss and zerg (chrono probes and lava respectively).
In late game they give terran an economic advantage on even bases compared to other advantages P and Z have (rebuilding armies is much easier for P and Z to do).

For fucks sake, if you want to play an RTS where all races are identical go play WC2.
I'm perfectly fine with terran having mules, but they should have a cooldown.

they should suffer for missing the timing for a new mule, just like the other races have to, nothing wrong with a mild cooldown tbh.
i cant pile on larvae injects and you cant double chrono.

[CN3089]

I'm perfectly fine with terran having mules, but they should have a cooldown.

they should suffer for missing the timing for a new mule, just like the other races have to, nothing wrong with a mild cooldown tbh.
i cant pile on larvae injects and you cant double chrono.

As long as we can still manner scan :ohdear:


anyway blizzard's just trying to be realistic humans own deal w/ it alien lovers

[Rainbow Dash]

who is inflowqft

he's posting too well to be a random

also it's been a year, and no one has found a viable strategy to use a lot of Protoss units, and are still favoring 4gates, and nothing else, so please, think, before you spew out that the game is balanced, it's not, and it's pretty fucking far from being that way for a while. (mothership, warp prism, carriers, etc)

As opposed to Terran where every unit is worth getting, even though they can win easily with minimal micro on an MMM force.

If you think this game is balanced you're deluding yourself, and should not post in the sc2 thread, thanks~~~

[CN3089]

buff carriers

[Bodzilla]

too bad you just missed yongwa beat Bomber in the GSTL~

[InflowQFT]

who is inflowqft

he's posting too well to be a random

also it's been a year, and no one has found a viable strategy to use a lot of Protoss units, and are still favoring 4gates, and nothing else, so please, think, before you spew out that the game is balanced, it's not, and it's pretty fucking far from being that way for a while. (mothership, warp prism, carriers, etc)

As opposed to Terran where every unit is worth getting, even though they can win easily with minimal micro on an MMM force.

If you think this game is balanced you're deluding yourself, and should not post in the sc2 thread, thanks~~~

What do you mean posting too well? O_o

I think that the reason 4gates are favored is because it has a really high success rate in the lower levels, and it's very very easy to pull off without any complex timing or game sense. I don't know if I entirely agree about the whole use of protoss units thing- I'm kind of on the fence about it- I think part of the reason it's so hard to go for things like warp prism is because it's simply too expensive to be cost effective, and since it doesn't have a really nice compliment (The reaver from SC1) or have a very strong use (Zealot bombing a tankline), it obviously isn't going to be used very often. I'm not sure where to begin to fix that, because obviously you can't just make it cheaper- but at the same time, you can't change all the mechanics that make SC2 unlike SC1. So no reaver. The protoss gateway units feel weaker, and thus change the mentality and mechanics of protoss play from the "Macro monster" style that gave rise to players like Doh Jae Wook (SKT Best). I'm not saying that it's a bad thing or a good thing- I'm just pointing out that there's a very specific reason the warp prism isn't cost effective anymore. As for Mothership and Carriers, that's a whole 'nother story. The idea of the mothership is rather stupid to me. It's a neat gimick, but serves no purpose like the arbiter in SC1, and really, I'm not sure I'd like the arbiter from SC1 back if I'd be using it in the current PvT. The carrier never saw widespread use except for in SC1 PvT, and most of the time, a player either went carrier after going arbiter, or went 3base carrier right away knowing they'd want to end on carriers. Players are still getting a feel for the advanced mechanics, and right now, what works is a massive ground army. Carriers seem too vulnerable and too out of the way (since you rarely commit to stargate unless you plan on doing stargate play) and expensive to tech to.

Terran's problem lies in its mechanics and the ease to which you can afford all of these units. They're really super effective, and the cost less than they should for the amount of damage they do. Hellions for example, the new vulture, if you would, can do linear damage and absolutely wreck bio units. That was true of the vulture, but he couldn't do the kind of multiple unit damage and his advantage rested on the fact the vulture was fast and did excellent damage against melee units and smaller units (I forget the term). Whether or not you can win with minimal micro is questionable- I was watching coL.Drewbie this morning stream a ladder vs protoss, and he won ONLY because of his micro. If he had not micro'd well, he very well would have lost.

That being said, the game is not balanced perfectly, and whether or not that's possible without breaking the game, several things can be done very easily without ruining the already set mechanics in the game. First and foremost- cooldown on mules.

[Rainbow Dash]

The trouble with the warp prism is more that 4 toss gateway units really isn't all that intimidating a drop, sure you can warp in even more depending on your gateway count, but you're effectively committing those units there, since the warp prism can't possibly carry them back.

That and 200 minerals is an insane price for that, especially when you've already got the most expensive, and arguably weakest gateway units in the t1 t1.5 family.

Warp prisms require the toss to either have a unit that can obliterate a worker line in a matter of seconds (like terrans and zerg), or have them carry at least double what they do now.

Also yes, hellions are a joke, especially against zerg. Watching mlg, and all these zergs, either have no real way of countering it (their only unit that can catch them is the speedling, and the hellion counters that) or managed to do so with super intense micro, and in idra's case even pull off an amazing counter where he obliterated the terran's economy. Yet somehow still lost.

It makes no sense to have these units cost the same as two marines, counter all nonranged light units in the game, and give the terran full map control.

As for minimal micro, sure some terrans do some micro requiring stuff, but from what I've seen in both mlgs, NASL, TSL, some GSL matches, and in countless ladder matches casted by various people, especially in PvT, you have them stutter stepping their guys or kiting zealots with conc shelled marauders for eternity, meanwhile the toss is throwing down forcefields everywhere, and using guardian shields. Then the terran comes along with the epitome of his micro selecting a ghost, and pressing E on a toss army blob and cutting their strength in half, and then pressing T and completely obliterating them.

There is no way minimal micro like that should beat an A+ moved toss army of relatively equal size, let alone one that's being microed like crazy, and yet I see it happen over and over.

PS: by posting too good I mean you're not retarded like a good portion of the people posting in this thread, and are actually doing more than spewing out games balanced lrn 2 adapt.

I can't really describe how nice it is to actually have more than the usual few people here actually willing to go in depth as to why they feel something is broken, or needs to be slightly changed.

[Pooky]

the usual few people here actually willing to go in depth as to why they feel something is broken, or needs to be slightly changed.

Sup.

[Rainbow Dash]

<3 u pooky

[Rainbow Dash]

Socke vs Thorzain in the Blizzard Battle net invitational.

Terran 19 harvesters, toss 28.

Terran income 840 mins, 240 gas
Protoss 780 mins, 112 gas.

Mules need a fucktonne more than a cooldown.

They already have the cheapest and most cost efficient combat units in the game, they do not need all this extra money to make even more of them.

[Rainbow Dash]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252455

just gonna leave this here

[Zeph]

*ahem*

There is much to consider - metagame shifts, skills transferrable from Brood War to SC2, or a simple predominance of high-quality players choosing Terran. Thankfully, I won't be competing with the Koreans but these figures do influence the way I feel about the metagame I live in.

[Rainbow Dash]

Sure those might be a part of it, but this is far more than just that.

[CN3089]

so switch to terran already and quit crying goddamn