How to save protoss without an expansion pack??

[Phopojijo]

Ponder this: Make the mothership a detector, change nothing else. I'm interested to see what implications that would have.

1) Possibility to not rely on Robo or Gateway
2) Mothership useful for things other than sneaking in a mass recall or attack-withdrawing with mass recall.
3) It would push people to mothership, which would actually massively DELAY Robo tech and might stimulate carrier production.

Opinions?

[Rainbow Dash]

A 400/400 detector that you can only have one of, and comes far later than any stealth timing push would.

Not viable at all, but I agree that toss relying on robo for mobile detection is ridiculous when both other races get detection with their standard tech pathing.

Give sentries another ability that uses energy to detect in a decent radius for a short period of time, bring toss more on par with terran and zerg who more or less have detection handed to them in their standard tech path.

[TeeKup]

I only barely scratched SCII gameplay, what is essentially the role of the toss mothership? Is it similar to a necron Restored Monolith in DOW: Dark Crusade?

I'd get SCII but this shitmachine couldn't handle it.

[Phopojijo]

A 400/400 detector, true -- but one that has other uses and gets you Carrier and +2/+3 techs. For someone going Stargate tech... there's a 225/175 investment to get a detector that does nothing else.

[Zeph]

Most stargate builds happen after forge, so it's not like you can't rely on cannons for early detection and defense.

Doesn't look like barracks, spawning pool, or roach warrent produces detection, so gateway is in line. Guess that means you need one or more buildings for detection (aka teching). Lets see, it seems that lair, robo, and orbital/starport are more buildings. What part of robo is unstandard, anyways? Standard protoss is a solid ground army, adding on air units mid game, keeping air units alive, and replacing lost ground units with carriers through the late game while upgrading. You just have a bad tendency to a-move your air units to their death and never get to that point.

And you want to give the biggest spellcasting race more spells? Regenerative detection that costs stupidly cheap amounts of money at that? And you said orbitals needed fixing....

[InflowQFT]

If you're trying to figure out a way to segway to carriers, then you shouldn't be relying on adding things to a practically useless unit. The mothership is way too slow and its uses aren't that great as compared to the arbiter of SC1. To change the mothership for more widespread use would mean to change then the entire game mechanics of SC2. I think that what you'll want is to figure out a way to make any of the already available stargate units more practical against the current match ups. Also, you have to remember, SC2 is still a relatively new game in terms of strategy- people haven't figured out every little detail yet. So you're gonna have units that don't get used until a good use is found- Look at how incredibly popularized forge first became after Nal_rA started using it- now it's practically standard in SCBW for PvZ. Things are bound to change strategically. Right now though, the reason it feels like protoss just uses gateway/robo units is because of the entirely different mechanics they play against- typically huge bio ball or zerg swarm style. It wouldn't make sense not to get an area of effect unit like the colossus or templar. In short, mechanically, at the moment, I don't think that making mothership a detector does anything for you, and carriers aren't used because of how incredibly out of the way the tech pattern is and how a game typically revolves around (atleast PvT) this massive ball of protoss units against MMM. What's becoming more popular is simply getting charge, archons, and storm, and it's gg.

[Bodzilla]

A 400/400 detector that you can only have one of, and comes far later than any stealth timing push would.

Not viable at all, but I agree that toss relying on robo for mobile detection is ridiculous when both other races get detection with their standard tech pathing.

Give sentries another ability that uses energy to detect in a decent radius for a short period of time, bring toss more on par with terran and zerg who more or less have detection handed to them in their standard tech path.
Thats a horrible idea.

zerg have to build OS's just like protoss AND send it to their army like protoss. We dont need any more absurb abilities like terran

E: Now to actually add to the discussion. i believe a big problem is that Protoss players are playing like Terrans where in the first 3 seasons of GSL.
What people dont seem to realize is that timing attacks work on a clock. there is only so long that a timing push or rush will work untill it's figured out, and once people work it out it's done.
It's just that protoss has the strongest attacking advantage of all races with warp tech, which has placed far too much emphasis on tricking or rushing a player, rather then just outplay him.

90% of protoss's rely far too much on timings to win games, and it's been working for a long time, but people are figuring it out. If you want to get down to it, the only protoss's that focus on the other side of play and advance the meta game in macro is Liquid Tyler, and IMYongwa.

I've actually been considering lately switching TOO toss to see what i can see in the macro side of things, cause i believe it's not being done right.

[Rainbow Dash]

Yeah you have to build OSes, but my point is you get them along your tech path, you don't have to go get a spire or something stupid like that, meanwhile toss has to go robo to get mobile detection, which makes no sense, either observers should be available from stargates and robotics facilities, or give toss aan alternate detection all together.

[Bodzilla]

i believe the reason your so dependent on the observer is because you cant get information via other ways. eg harrassing or scouting the front effciently.

you guys need shuttle at nexus and warp gate for shuttle to make it a warp prism at the robo support bay.

Bam.

[Zeph]

Here's the thing you're not really picking up on. The lair is its own building/place in the tech tree. You have to spend resources to build it just as you would a robo. However, lair only opens up certain things: OS morph, creep drop, advancing upgrades to level 2. Lair isn't an offensive upgrade without devoting more minerals into it. For us to continue on the tech path, we need to spend more resources on more tech buildings.

Nexus, gateway, cyber, gas, robo, obs.

Hatch, pool, lair, lord, gas, seer.

To produce them from scratch, it takes just as much teching. You say robo is out of the way when going to strongest air?

Nexus, gateway, cyber, gas, robo, obs, stargate, beacon.

Hatch, pool, lair, lord, gas, seer, spire, pit, hive, greater.

Oh my, it takes more tech to reach a zerg tier 3 air than toss from scratch with detection. Even if you say we have an overlord at the beginning, it's still more. At that, toss have chrono piling up from the start. Zerg have to wait for queens that can easily die.

What you're arguing is factually wrong. Adjust your playstyle and figure it out. The only thing that robo would block you out of would be two stalkers. If two stalkers would hurt you that much then your opponent is very good, you made a mistake, and you're not taking advantage of the map to its fullest. If two less stalkers in your unit composition would make an offensive push break, then don't do it. SC2 balances risk and reward. Double expanding is incredibly risky, but if it works, then it quickly pays off. Same applies to having detection; it sinks a little bit of money for security. If an opponent manages to break your defensive advantage over it, and I mean you're equally fighting down to the last unit, he's simply better than you are.

[Bodzilla]

Also you forgot Corrupter-> brood lol



i still belive Toss has some holes in the race, same as zerg.

the problem is Terran just doesn't and thats where the biggest problems are.
They can be aggressive, defensive, passive, positionally, macro, micro, all in....... and then throw in a unit that does so incredibly well against 80% of their units. the goddam marauder.

In PvZ it's a meta game unit combination issue,

but in PvT it's a race specific problem centered around that toss hasnt got anywhere near the amount of options a terran has.

Give them shuttles at their nexus after core (choice to make probes or a drop for risk/reward) they'll be able to actually put pressure back on Terrans, harrass and gain scouting through aggressive tactics.

[Rainbow Dash]

Zeph, if you seriously think getting robo early on just for an observer isn't a big deal you're fucking crazy.

It's a huge investment early on and one that you need to get or end up gging to banshees or burrowed roaches, unless you put cannons everywhere, whereas terrans get obscenely easy detection with orbital, and zerg get it without committing to a specific tech path.

Making observers nexus units that require a cyber core, or perhaps one of their advanced tech buildings would solve a lot of problems with toss tbh.

On another note, the stalker's damage bonus only affecting units that counter it is fucking ludicrous too.

Also since at the higher level toss using observers to scout the enemy base usually just get seen and shot down via a scan, either make them fully invisible, or make scan require an upgrade to detect. Also only detect within the fucking bitmap, not this arbitrarily way bigger thing. I'm fucking tired of seeing these terrans walk up to a zerg or toss and entirely miss their scan but still fuck up everything because what they were looking for was on the far fringes, just, come on.

Additionally make tech labs do something when they're researching.

[Bodzilla]

no it wouldnt the problem isn't that you cant get free scouting.
it's you cant get passive scouting.

All your suggesting Sel would literally make it so toss went into games with a cheat sheet of what the other race is doing. and thats BAD.

[n00b1n8R]

Zeph post some replays so we can see your gosu skills~

posting in the worst thread in this section~~~
(Protoss is fine, meta has just shifted. give it a few months)

[Rainbow Dash]

(Protoss is fine, meta has just shifted. give it a few months)

wahahahahahahahahahahahah

yeah

that's definitely it

games perfectly balanced

[Rainbow Dash]

no it wouldnt the problem isn't that you cant get free scouting.
it's you cant get passive scouting.

All your suggesting Sel would literally make it so toss went into games with a cheat sheet of what the other race is doing. and thats BAD.

Then not cyber core, make observer a nexus unit that requires either a twilight council, stargate, or robo.

Comes at the exact same time as it would before, and doesn't force them to commit to a single tech path early on.

[InflowQFT]

While I don't necessarily think that you should make getting obs come from the stargate, I do have to agree it can be quite out of the way especially in PvT. Think about it- The current style PvT is chargelot/archon/templar. Meaning an opening of something like 3gate pressure into an expand. With the extremely quick aggression terran can make in SC2, getting a robo when your original conception is to open 3gate, expand, and go twilight council will set you back significantly in terms of tech for just one unit.

That being said, if any of you remember playing PvZ in SCBW, if you opened up forge first FE, and then went +1speedzeal, your next tech choice would be dependent on what your opponent opened. If you see a 3 hatch coming out, and it's either a hydra bust or 3hatch lurker, then you would have to choose between going with a 4gate templar or a robo/obs and dragoon build. Both could potentially deal with lurkers, but thinking about it, if you had no intention of going dragoons and only got templar, then you'd be screwed for a while if lurkers popped up and you ran out of storm. The idea is that you HAVE to eventually get obs. There's just no way around it, and even if you don't intend to eventually get reavers or shuttles for anything, you'd still have to plop down that robo bay, observatory, and whatnot. I'm really just saying that either way, in both games, it's entirely possible depending on what you're going for that obs is completely out of the way, but completely necessary. I think that out of all the things you could be fixing, you probably could start elsewhere.

What do you guys think of lowering the cost of charge? I really don't know if it makes a difference at all, but it's just something I've thought about.

[Phobias]

Additionally make tech labs do something when they're researching.

What do you mean by this?

[Bodzilla]

he's just bad at the game phobo dont worry about it.

noob said the same thing to me about hatches.

[n00b1n8R]

he's just bad at the game phobo dont worry about it.

noob said the same thing to me about hatches.

Except there are times when you actually need to know if a techlab is working on something :downs:
I played as z for a while and still couldn't tell the fucking difference. Maybe I have to turn my graphics up vOv


wahahahahahahahahahahahah

yeah

that's definitely it

games perfectly balanced

Well ya, are you dumb? xDD

[Phobias]

The green liquid in the tech labs starts to bubble and glow when it's researching something, are you seriously telling me you have never noticed that before?

I mean, look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwStpeHVyM

D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwStpeHVyM)isregard the ventrilo chatter, recorded this a few minutes ago.

[Bodzilla]

See thats why zerg players in general have always been underperformers.

i mean i thought this was basic like bronze level knowledge, but apparently you can rock plat toss and still not notice these things lol.
Hell we'd die if we didnt notice this shit.

[ODX]

I never have too much problem with detection since I'm able to have observers just fine once I get to my robotics. The only downfall is when my obs doesn't get out in time or isn't in the right spot.

My main fucking problem against Terran though is their bullshit EMP. 2 unavoidable blasts and my entire army is killed instantly even though beforehand it was waaaaay better than my shitty opponents. THAT is what you call imbalanced.

[Rainbow Dash]

What do you guys think of lowering the cost of charge? I really don't know if it makes a difference at all, but it's just something I've thought about.

As far as I'm concerned zealots should start with charge in PvT, since most good terrans have figured out how to not get fucked by forcefields at this point, and happily kite zealots all day long early game.


The green liquid in the tech labs starts to bubble and glow when it's researching something, are you seriously telling me you have never noticed that before?

D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwStpeHVyM)isregard the ventrilo chatter, recorded this a few minutes ago.

That's nearly unnoticeable unless you zoom in, especially compared to the humongous spinning turbines that protoss have. The only terran buildings you can tell with a quick glance are teching are the fusion core, and armory. This problem also occurs with zerg, but at the very least you know what they're doing because of their buildings.



My main fucking problem against Terran though is their bullshit EMP. 2 unavoidable blasts and my entire army is killed instantly even though beforehand it was waaaaay better than my shitty opponents. THAT is what you call imbalanced.

I'm glad you brought this up.

An unavoidable, instant ability that can remove about 1700 shield (+ whatever energy they have) life (or more) from the toss army which is already considerably weaker than the terran anyway is absolutely laughable, whoever thought emp should affect shields should be fired from blizzard.


he's just bad at the game phobo dont worry about it.

noob said the same thing to me about hatches.

Hey that's funny bod, especially since every 1v1 we've played you've lost :333

[ODX]

As far as I'm concerned zealots should start with charge in PvT, since most good terrans have figured out how to not get fucked by forcefields at this point, and happily kite zealots all day long early game.Fuck. Yes.
They use to have it by default back in alpha/beta if I remember correctly, in the one video where they showed the mothership and other Protoss units. It honestly makes me wonder what went through their head when they made it a 200/200 upgrade.


An unavoidable, instant ability that can remove about 1700 shield (+ whatever energy they have) life (or more) from the toss army which is already considerably weaker than the terran anyway is absolutely laughable, whoever thought emp should affect shields should be fired from blizzard.I was watching HuK stream yesterday and even he fell pray to this bullshit. Now he of course has insane micro but not even that was able to help him win the battle. Running obviously doesn't help because they have stim, and our only way of really stopping it is attempting to feedback...but to get that we have to throw down that archives which takes ungodly long to warp in.

[Phobias]

That's nearly unnoticeable unless you zoom in, especially compared to the humongous spinning turbines that protoss have. The only terran buildings you can tell with a quick glance are teching are the fusion core, and armory. This problem also occurs with zerg, but at the very least you know what they're doing because of their buildings.


Oh so you're not stupid, you're just trolling.

[Rainbow Dash]

Are you serious?

Get the fuck out if you're not going to contribute anything aside from petty name calling to this thread.

[n00b1n8R]

Oh so you're not stupid, you're just trolling.
Obv lol


Hey that's funny bod, especially since every 1v1 we've played you've lost :333
Bo3 grudge match between Sel the badtoss and zilla the bitchzerg! Casted and streamed by Phobias with guest co-coaster n00b gogogogo

Nightmare mode: Whoever looses can't blame it on balance.

[CN3089]

whiners gonna whine

[InflowQFT]

whiners gonna whine

Why do you even bother posting in this thread if you have nothing constructive to contribute then?

I think we're just waiting for a version of SCBW 3hatch muta or bisu build to be developed for SC2. Honestly I don't think things are going to significantly change since blizzard is looking to fix these issues more in SC2 HotS.

[Zeph]

See thats why zerg players in general have always been underperformers.

i mean i thought this was basic like bronze level knowledge, but apparently you can rock plat toss and still not notice these things lol.
Hell we'd die if we didnt notice this shit.
I told you he was bad.



As far as I'm concerned zealots should start with charge in PvT, since most good terrans have figured out how to not get fucked by forcefields at this point, and happily kite zealots all day long early game.

Remember when forcefields were unbeatable?
The game is evolving as people learn how to counter.
FFs weren't changed at all and they needed no change to be countered.


I'm glad you brought this up.

An unavoidable, instant ability that can remove about 1700 shield (+ whatever energy they have) life (or more) from the toss army which is already considerably weaker than the terran anyway is absolutely laughable, whoever thought emp should affect shields should be fired from blizzard.


First, you should know they have ghosts in their composition before you get EMP'd.
If you know there are ghosts, prioritize the spread of your energy spellcasters.
Spend any extra APM on spreading out your army. Ghosts are detterants to the protoss deathball. Terrans specialize in area damage; you think a nuke or tanks are out of line as well?


That's nearly unnoticeable unless you zoom in, especially compared to the humongous spinning turbines that protoss have. The only terran buildings you can tell with a quick glance are teching are the fusion core, and armory. This problem also occurs with zerg, but at the very least you know what they're doing because of their buildings.

It's not nearly unoticeable. It's a single spot you only have to look for. It takes up the same amount of surface area as a forge's animation or a armory's. You want all buildings to throb like a zerg or something? You just don't know how to scout unless you're watching a replay's overlay or screenwatching.

[Rainbow Dash]

Hi I'm zeph and I think Carriers are balanced.

Also considering you hardly ever played the game in the first place, really doesn't make you a reliable source anyway, so please stop wasting everyone's time coming in here and spewing out games balanced metagames just shifting lolololol, it contributes nothing other than showing your complete and total ignorance.

[Bodzilla]

Obv lol


Bo3 grudge match between Sel the badtoss and zilla the bitchzerg! Casted and streamed by Phobias with guest co-coaster n00b gogogogo

Nightmare mode: Whoever looses can't blame it on balance.

ohhh yeeaaaahhhh.


also i always go for something funky in my 1v1's generally because i'm play testing some ideas i have. s i cut corners and DIE TO A FFFFFIINN 4 GATE FFFFF

[n00b1n8R]

ohhh yeeaaaahhhh.

Sel u in???

[Phopojijo]

Hi I'm zeph and I think Carriers are balanced.

Also considering you hardly ever played the game in the first place, really doesn't make you a reliable source anyway, so please stop wasting everyone's time coming in here and spewing out games balanced metagames just shifting lolololol, it contributes nothing other than showing your complete and total ignorance.Carriers are somewhat balanced... they're useful when you batter an enemy but just can't frickin' kill them. One deceptively really hard thing to do in Starcraft is to not lose when you're ahead... it gives you more to tech for when you have no pressure because all the pressure is on the enemy.

The problem of course is when you batter someone (especially economically)... that's often the WORST time to kill them because you spent so many resources (including map control, unit composition, etc.) beating your opponent into that state. Your actual advantage will come in a couple/few minutes after your opponent grinds his or her gears trying to get back their momentum. At that point... you've only gotten scarier. Hehehe... s-carrier.

The problem is that carriers shouldn't just be relegated to the role of "What? The game hasn't ended yet? Wow that guy looks like hell... here, put them out of their misery." That's the main reason for the mothership detection: you can use cannons to guard yourself against cloaked attacks at your base easily.

The problem is that unlike Terran and Zerg: Protoss' tech tree is branched into 3... Robo, Star, and upper Gate. Terran's tech is, for the most part (Thor and Ghost semi-excepted), sequential. Zerg's tech is neither... there is not really... *really*... any such thing as a "tech switch" in Zerg. When you get a new technology, you're instantly at maximum production capacity (which is the reason for larva, of course -- to put a ceiling on that). Terran can simply focus on whatever they prefer. Protoss on the other hand needs to utilize what the tech they make, otherwise they are behind.

The way it is balanced... Protoss are able to push down pretty much any two of the three high-tech paths in a reasonable late mid-game... high gate + robo, high gate + star, robo + star. ((Protoss can also opt for a more lean unit composition with low gate and only one of the high tech paths to push out earlier... but you know.))

1) High Gate + Robo: For the longest time it was always high-gate and robo... you know, high temps and DTs w/ colossus.
Then at some point...
2) Robo + Star for "the colossus/void ray death ball": You may say "Wait, there's gateway units in the death ball"... ... yeah, LOW gate units. You don't see Archon/Colossus/Voidray mixes that commonly, do you?

There's a third option... High Gate + Star... the problem is, there's no frickin' detection down that path. Unless your aim is to late-game cannon rush you're pretty screwed. This is why Protoss tends to devolve into Collosus play: you already possibly need to stumble into robo tech if you ever want to actually *move out*, particularly against ghosts.

This is why I think motherships should be detectors... they're by no means OP, though it would give users a reason to climb the high gate + star or lean gate + star trees and cause as much of a shakeup of established norms as a new unit would add (particularly all the possibilities leading up to the mothership)... but not be imbalanced. In fact, it would be analogous to the Science Vessel.

There is little other reason for Protoss to not be able to batter their opponent with High Gate and Star... then be able to tech with Robo for the kill.

[Phobias]

I wouldn't mind if motherships were detectors, they hardly get used because they are very situational, giving them another purpose would be beneficial to the evolution of protoss as a race, I also think warp prisms need either a speed buff (not quite the speed of the upgrade, that's muta-like and bullshit) or hardened shields. Something to keep them alive.
All zerg needs is a defensive unit that does splash and isn't a one use only unit (lolbanes) even if that unit is static, similar to a lurker.

Actually, you know what? Just give me my damned lurker.



Are you serious?

Get the fuck out if you're not going to contribute anything aside from petty name calling to this thread.

I stopped taking this thread seriously the moment I read;


Additionally make tech labs do something when they're researching.

and realised you were being sincere.

[InflowQFT]

I still don't see how making a mothership a detector makes it used more often- it's a really slow mother fucking obs with arbiter abilities that don't mesh with the game mechanics of protoss. Also, I always thought you were supposed to transition to colossus- it's a staple unit- I think it just depends how you wanna play- Obviously if you're gonna go early stargate, detection is gonna be delayed. If you're going for colossus, it's there- and when you need to you transition to templar tech. If you go chargelot archon, then you can get a robo for detection and lategame drops/dts. I don't see how there's even discussion of carriers as a balanced or imbalanced unit- the use doesn't mesh with the mechanics of the game. I mean, sure they're pretty and everyone wants to use them, but their use is simply too limited. You'll die trying to tech to a unit that you have to have like 5+ of just to hold your own. Think about why they were so popular in PvT in SCBW.

Like I said. It just takes time to fine tune the strategies you can use- The one I find becoming more common is chargelot archon templar in pvt. You aren't going to give the protoss anymore options tweaking units' abilities- I think it's something so fundamentally established in how each unit works already that it would be impractical to try to change one and call it fixed.

[Zeph]

Hi I'm zeph and I think Carriers are balanced.

Also considering you hardly ever played the game in the first place, really doesn't make you a reliable source anyway, so please stop wasting everyone's time coming in here and spewing out games balanced metagames just shifting lolololol, it contributes nothing other than showing your complete and total ignorance.

They're the highest dps unit in the game. They have the highest upgraded armor in the game. With interceptors deployed, they have the highest range in the game. Any time that we've played and you've used carriers, I've had to micro them for you to keep them alive because otherwise you just send them to their death. You're one to talk.

[Rainbow Dash]

If they're so amazingly powerful why do they next to never make tournament appearances, please, say something like, it's because the pros don't know how to use them either. :allears:

[Bodzilla]

well yeah basically.

huk used to use them in stale mate situations to inflict damage and draw back before he lost all his sheilds, therefor making it free damage to gain an edge.
That use is still there it's just with a protoss we havnt had the big drawn out stalemate plays like what is becoming increasingly common in tvt mech vs mech.

[Phopojijo]

Really the biggest goal of the carriers at this point (in 1v1 of course) is to round out your army once you already won the game except for the opponent's attempts to claw their way back in.

I think we have all seen or played a situation like the following: you get marine rushed and you're crippled, you manage to stabilize but the opponent keeps trying to kill you... so you push back and maul them. Happened to me about a month-or-so ago when I was experimenting with Marine-Ghost. I was down to like, 4 SCVs (failed walling in) after needing them to kill marines but managed to get a clutch double-bunker + supply depot wall up with a couple marines in -- built back up, guy was still trickling marines at me... balling them every so often but didn't even make it in. Just walked into his base, sniped his SCVs, and he literally gave up -- doing nothing but type to me. Had he stopped attacking while I was crippled and just teched... I would have been *rolled*.

[Phobias]

Carriers aren't a good unit. I've never seen them in pvp, so I don't know what the lategame carriers would be like (you can't rush to them pvp), in zvp if the zerg is going ling bane you can usually catch him off guard but the counter attack is going to kill you outright, so it's a base race. If the zerg is going roach hydra you NEED to target fire the hydras, which isn't hard but some people don't have the mouse accuracy or apm to do so in a fight.

To me, carriers are a unit that forces a player to commit to a fight. They have a good amount of hp and they do great damage, so you can't really snipe them with mutas/corruptors etc, you have to actually push the main army in order to take out the carriers.

(I'm speaking strictly of ZvP because it's the only matchup I'm confident discussing)

[Zeph]

If they're so amazingly powerful why do they next to never make tournament appearances, please, say something like, it's because the pros don't know how to use them either. :allears:

Let me introduce you to a guy named Huk. Again, cause you don't seem to pay attention to him no matter how many times I point him out to you.
He's used them very well as a transition out of chargelot archon in close by air and has even shown that zerg is near useless against a full void/carrier/mothership fleet with traditional play. There's too many interceptors to let the AI handle it and by the time you move your zerg army into range, the carriers could continue to pull back while the interceptors stay out dealing damage. The only way Huk took damage was from speedling counterattacks to his expansions. That stopped soon enough when he walled in his ramps with cannons.

[Rainbow Dash]

I've seen huk play quite a bit over the last year.

Haven't seen him use carriers except in Day9's carrier themed funday monday.

:allears:

Also may I direct you to capital ship watch section for each of these events.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2010_Sony_Ericsson_Starcraft_II_Open_Season_2#Triv ia

A whopping 2 games out of them all where carriers had a significant effect haha.

:allears:

[Rainbow Dash]

Also this article makes some p good points while on the topic of carriers, and toss high air tech in general.

http://www.toptiertactics.com/2011/05/two-tech-trees-down-one-to-go-when-will-the-carrier-arrive/

[Rainbow Dash]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257589

In order to have a chance at beating 1/1/1 you need to 15 nexus to have a chance at keeping up in resources with a 1 base terran.

NO STFU TOSS JUST NEEDS 2 LRN 2 ADAPT LOLOLOL GAMES BALANCED

[n00b1n8R]

stfu sell, any 1/1/1 sent your way on ladder can be beaten on 1 base easy.

[Bodzilla]

hey Sel you need to stop listening to the protoss players that arn't creative and listen to people like tyler.

from a post i saw tyler reckons you can go straight into stargate play and harrass to get the scouting you need and if need be, sack the nexus.

Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
Boom baby.


My experience is much different. 1gate star either breaks even or gives a huge advantage (if they put any units on your ramp) against 2rax FE. 1gate robo sometimes has to cancel against a very aggressive 2rax FE, but most of the time does not. Keep in mind that the standard follow-up to these openings is not to build a nexus but rather to build more gates. 1gate star is followed by another gate and 1gate robo is usually followed by 2 more gates, though sometimes one additional gate is enough.


I say these openings "yield economically sound mid games" and you say that they "put you astronomically behind". What's the point? What's the point of simply contradicting my assessment of the strength of a robo or star opening's economy?

By the way, I'm pretty sure that lack of practice is the thing holding me back, not build orders. If anything, you should take a careful and respectful look at how I approach the game because I'm able to hang with pros despite playing maybe a tenth or a fifth of the amount they do. Hell, if you don't count games played to get back in shape as practice, then I practice even less than a tenth. As for Artosis, I hate to say it but the guy has a really hard time getting good enough mechanics to do his knowledge and understanding justice. Artosis and I are two of the very few people that, for objective reasons, ought to be listened to despite not being the current best players in the world. I'm sure there are many others but we have the public history. But you can just leave it. You don't have to give my posts any more notice than any other poster here if you don't want to. However, making a misinformed argument to especially ignore my posts is not cool.

lets ignore this guy though, i mean he's only one of the smartest players.

[Rainbow Dash]

ya korean toss just dont work as hard lollolololololollolllll game balanced lol!!!

You do realize this has been around since beta, and they still haven't found a counter? Pretty sure they've tried this stuff bod tyvm!

http://twitter.com/SlayerSAlicia?_escaped_fragment_=/SlayerSAlicia#!/SlayerSAlicia

[Rainbow Dash]

Also I swear to god zeph

the only metagame going on in sc2 now is to pick terran because it is obviously, admitted by blizzard to be, and if tournament winnings are any indication, the best race.

fuck

[CN3089]

nah zerg is the best race right now, hope this helps




fuckin infestors



you can trust me, i am a gold 2v2 player, furthermore,

[Bodzilla]

you guys dont think the standard FFE, nexus first and 1 gate Nexus builds where incredibly greedy builds?

?????

[Rainbow Dash]

The entire point he's making int he article is that you are REQUIRED to fast expand like that to have a chance of countering 1/1/1 without a nearly inhuman feat of micro management since you simply can not keep up in resources and production on a single base, and by "being greedy" you're just opening yourself up to lose to the other all in strategies.

http://i.imgur.com/9Qr6h.jpg

[CN3089]

But Protoss players haven't fully explored the metagame, why not try carriers? I hear they're pretty good units!

[Rainbow Dash]

you're cute

:allears:

[n00b1n8R]

Artosis my mancrush for life says it's just meta so you're all just shitty http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/b/b7/Artosis.gif

[Rainbow Dash]

Welcome to sesame street, today's word is, "Metagame".

^___^

[Phopojijo]

But Protoss players haven't fully explored the metagame, why not try carriers? I hear they're pretty good units!They're used quite a bit... after the opponent is crippled when you can tech while they try to hang on.

Before then there isn't really any viable timings if you also want mobile detection.

[Phopojijo]

Well look at that, Mothership Core gets detection mode in Heart of the Swarm to allow detection for Stargate tech paths.

[n00b1n8R]

It doesn't have to be stargate tech mind, MS core only requires a cybernetics core to build.
HOTS is looking to be a great expansion for all races if the buffs continue to retool the races in the way they have so far.

(carriers got buffed in the latest patch too hth)

[DarkHalo003]

I can't wait for HotS. It means I'll be far less paranoid about leaving my base as Protoss. ^_^

Oh and Carrier Micro is finally back, not to mention the Dark Shrine is now 100/100. :D

Terran drops will be interesting though if Medivac Speed Boosters stays. I also love what they did with the Infestor now. Kind of sad that burrow charge is gone though. Not too sure how I feel about the Void Ray now though. Either it'll be better against Corruptors or stay stagnant. BUT DAMN I LOVE THAT PHOENIX RANGE BUFF!

This is coming from a Silver/Gold player, so take it with a grain of salt. :P