attack helicopter

[demonmaster3k]

i've spent 3 solid nights working in the new 3ds max 9.0 system (which i find, not too different than 8.0, but easier to create better renders) to make this helicopter, it's part of a new line of vehicles to be included in my future mods among other vehicles (which i still have yet to make) so here goes to my first quality work-in-progress

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/6208/attackcopterqo5.jpg

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4847/opencanopycj9.jpg

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2641/openweaponshatchec7.jpg
now i do notice, that i have some more detailing to do (landing gear, missle thingies that come out of the compartments, cockpit detailing, ect...) but tell me what you think so far

[rossmum]

Looks pretty cool. Rotors seem a bit weak, though.

[mined]

Looks good. My only word of advice here is that the rotor wings need to be at least twice if not three times as wide as the are now. Realistically you would never produce enough lift to get that thing off the ground.

[rossmum]

Lol mined, beat you to it :p

[mined]

Lol mined, beat you to it :p

lol, yeah, but I was more specific. :D

[demonmaster3k]

Looks good. My only word of advice here is that the rotor wings need to be at least twice if not three times as wide as the are now. Realistically you would never produce enough lift to get that thing off the ground.
ok, i'll change the rotor placement so it's towards the front more (tried extension earlier but it intercepted the vertical fin; [that would be bad])
good advice thanx

[mined]

ok, i'll change the rotor placement so it's towards the front more (tried extension earlier but it intercepted the vertical fin; [that would be bad])
good advice thanx

??? I'm a little confused. I think you misunderstood my advice. You rotor placement looks fine (As long as the rotor shaft is balanced over the center of gravity on the aircraft). What I was trying to say is that the rotor blades are too skinny. The tip path radius looks fine since it is a tandem rotor system.

[demonmaster3k]

ok, i've tried a couple of things to make the roaders on the copter more believable
first attempt-elongalation-i elongated the tail and the roadders
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3610/frontangleelongatedtailrb5.jpg

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1044/rearangleelongatedtaillh7.jpg

the other thing that i tried was as mined reccomended was to make the roadders bigger
vertical stretch:
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4194/verticallystretchedroaddersgi4.jpg
horizontal stretch:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6480/horizontalstretchnk0.jpg
combination of both stretches:
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3968/verticalhorizontalstretchkv8.jpg

i think the elongations made it look better, and so did the horizontal stretches

[rossmum]

No, not vertical stretches... widen the blades. They're too narrow across. Doesn't look like they're any wider than they were to begin with.

[demonmaster3k]

i widened the blades, in this picture, you will actually be able to see the comparison (the top blade is the new size, and the bottom blade is the old size)

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/2295/widerbladesog3.jpg

[rossmum]

Still needs a bit more.

[demonmaster3k]

nope, the whole blade (even though in persective view, it just looks like the blade edge is widened)
i'll get another angle to try and clarify... but this time both blades are going to be widened
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1125/overheadviewxu4.jpg

[rossmum]

Yeah, just noticed. :p

[mined]

lol *bangs head on desk* look, its just constructive crit that you don't have to use...but when I mean widen as rossmum explained, I mean w-i-d-e-n. The blades on a UH-1 Huey over two feet wide. Keep in mind the Huey is a smaller aircraft. Shoot, even the blades on a OH-6 "little bird" or a OH-58 Kiowa has wider rotor blades then what your model resembles and both of those aircraft have very limited load capacities.

So, if you would like to take the advice from someone who has actually maintained aircraft, you'd need to w-i-d-e-n those blades from leading edge to trailing edge not from rotor hub to rotor tip.

:cool:

[demonmaster3k]

sure i'll try and work on it some more
(i grow tired of roadders right now, so i'm going to start working on landing gear compartments)

[Jayden]

Tbh, I'd rather see something like Battlefield 2142's dropships. Their kind of like helicopters, but they've got thrusters instead. Really secksy. Rotors just aren't happening in the 26th century.

[Timo]

Aren't helicopter wings tipped at the ends?

[mined]

Aren't helicopter wings tipped at the ends?

Not always. For example the UH-60 Blackhawk has a "swept" tip cap. The different tip cap designs can actually help reduce noise and create a better track among the blades.

[mR_r0b0to]

the cockpit shield/windshield is meh

:p otherwise, keep workin on it

[Nic]

Looks pretty cool.

I like the jet area place, pretty cool.

But, how will you turn yourself around? The back just has a jet pointing backwards.

[Narida]

Making the rotors spin at slightly different speeds (in oposite directions) would make the helicopter turn around, so thats not really a problem ;)
Nice helicopter though^^

you wouldn't even need a jet at the back to move forwards...

[Rescudo]

Looks pretty good, I'm looking forward to seeing this in-game. :)

[Btd69]

But, how will you turn yourself around? The back just has a jet pointing backwards.

Considering it is a game, I presume the user will simply turn using the mouse.

In all honesty, i'd prefer a cool looking helicopter then one that is flight-worthy in real life.

[demonmaster3k]

Looks pretty cool.

I like the jet area place, pretty cool.

But, how will you turn yourself around? The back just has a jet pointing backwards.
i've checked with some people that are planning future concepts on aircraft and naval technologies, they said that by rerouting the exhaust out of the back of the helicopter makes it more stealth towards radar, and that also replaces the need of a rear counter-roadder. (notice the angles in the body) the angles in the body are my attempt at making radar-deflecting angles, i've looked at some sci-fi copters but majority of my ideas came from those things that those people told me, also some of it came from the comanche
(and the jsf's hidden weapon's payload)

stealth is the latest thing in naval and aircraft design

*ps, the roadders will tilt to provide forward motion, backwards motion, and strafing

[legionaire45]

cool! keep up the good work. Whats the poly/triangle count so far?

[ImSpartacus]

hmm, i agree that the rotors look weak, too thin, a little short to my tastes.

Overall i htink it looks decent, i like the fins at the bac, they give it some character, and those engine lookin things on the sides give it some depth. just fix those rotors and add some detail

[mined]

..rerouting the exhaust out of the back of the helicopter makes it more stealth towards radar, and that also replaces the need of a rear counter-roadder.

You got the right idea...kind of. When you have a single axis tandem rotor system, the two rotors rotate against each other, thus counter balancing the torque against each other. In a single main rotor system a tail rotor or tail side-deflected thrust is used to counter the torque. Without the counter balance, the fuselage will begin to spin with the rotors the second it leaves the ground. What you are speaking of is combining two rotor wing technologies, which is unrealistic and extremely inefficient. In order to make your model logical, you need to either choose the single axis tandem rotor without a tail-rotor/side thrust, or you need to have a single rotor with the tail rotor side/side thrust system.

It looks like what you have in your model is a single axis tandem rotor with rear exhaust at the end of your tail boom which is completely logical, so don't change that aspect.

Also, a note on single axis tandem rotors...When the aircraft makes a change is yaw (this is usually done by increasing or decreasing the pitch in the tail rotor for a single main rotor system) this is done by reducing the rpms for one of the rotors. The change in rpm's allows the rotor torque to naturally do what it wants to and start to rotate the fuselage hanging below it.

[demonmaster3k]

so, mined, what you're saying, realistically is that (whatever you called it) the dual-rotor system won't work with the exhaust going out the tail... it would produce too much torque.

... this roadder is becoming more and more problems as i advance in the project... i'm scrapping the roadder and making a new one (the standard four blade system)

*sry limited knowledge on helicopters; dont know terminology

[mined]

look, I apologize.

I am a little over-zealous when it comes to rotor-wing. It has been a big part of my life and I am extremely knowledgable with first hand experience in this area. When ever I have a chance to pass on some of this knowledge, I pounce.

Please don't scrap your idea. It is looking good. Originally my only advice was to widen the blades. No matter what anyone says, believability greatly enhances the gaming experience. It allows the player to better relate to what is going on.

As far as what I posted concerning the difference in rotor systems, I failed you. I was attempting to help explain differences in systems to help you with your design decisions. What I ended up doing was just further confusing you.

What I was trying to explain, in a nut shell, was this:

If you have a single axis tandem rotor system (which you do in your model) then any counter torque measures on the tail are unnecessary.

If you have a single main rotor system (which you don't) Counter torque measures on the tail are limited to either a tail rotor or an exhaust jet that deflects the thrust perpendicular to the tail boom.

If you choose to outlet your exhaust at the end of the tail boom so that it trails behind the aircraft in a linear fashion, then this has no effect on counter torque.

If you choose to take away one of the main rotors and convert the system to a single main rotor system, then you need to turn your tail exhaust 90 degrees towards the opposite direction of how your main rotor turns.

[demonmaster3k]

no, i'm continuing the helicopter, but i'm scrapping the roadder, and creating a better (wider) one, i noticed my mistake and beginning my correction sequence. (i think this time i've got it down for sure)
also, i confess that last time, it only took me like 5 minutes to model the roadders

[mined]

Sounds like everything is cool then. Just one more minor, itty bitty thing...roadder is spelled rotor.

There...you should be good-to-go. Can't wait to see the model progress.

:D

[demonmaster3k]

ok, here's the beginning of the new rotor;
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2545/newimprovedrottoryp2.jpg
(i decided to go with a more cone-shaped design like the commanche)
*notice this time, the blades are wider (and thicker) hoorray!!!!
i've still got some shaping, (and something tells me that they arent long enough, after comparing my model with various helicopter printouts scattered throught my room)

*ps, that's not the final cockpit, it need shaping up

here's what happened after a few adjustments (finishing the rottor blades+elongating the tail+adding an intake duct above the cockpit)
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3325/afewadjustmentsbl0.jpg
now, that's what i call sexy

[rossmum]

I liked the tandem-rotor better =/

*picks up half-painted Ka50 model*

Try something like this, it's a 2x3 blade tandem rotor, and it doesn't need any sort of tail rotor. Plus, it looks cool - tandems look better on attack helicopters IMO.

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Maks2005/Highlights/Ka50TopView1oClock.jpg

[demonmaster3k]

....
looks like i might be making variants in that case (rotors dont take that long to build in max the single-tandem rotor only took me like 10 minutes, but the result was a lot more asthetically pleasing over the original. also notice how i extended the tail and made part of it wider)
for now, i'm staying with the single tandem and adding landing gear. (the extra compartments are going to be storage areas.... single tandem varient=civilian usage, although the helicopter's original design was intended for military offensive strikes)
i've already got the landing gear system layed out, but i'm having problems connecting the gear to the fueselage, the supports that extend the plates to the ground are too long to sucessfully retract.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4440/compartmentsthekeystounleashinghelley9.jpg
compartments; the keys to unleashing hell in the 21st century and beyond
i'd say the military atributes are really starting to become visible in the helicopter.
(rossum, just a word of advice, next time you post a big picture, use the shot tags
ie:
["shot"]["/shot"]so the picture fits the whole page for everyone's browser)

[rossmum]

And here was me thinking we had some sort of image resizer installed. *shrug*

By the way... a tandem rotor is a pair of rotors (on the same axis, like the Ka50, or on different ones, like the CH-47 Chinook). That there on yours is just a conventional rotor, and it's going to need a tail rotor to prevent torque spinning the helicopter like a top. Besides, yours looked better with tandems, even if they were a little thin.

[demonmaster3k]

damnit! shoulda gone with my first instinct; oh well
"what's the test results"
"spun like a top after liftoff"
"tell the DoD that they might have to wait on their contract"
"well... at least it was a good laugh"

lol :p

yea here's for the TLAR (that looks about right) method
picks up the welder and the carpaint (yes i said capaint)
back to work

but one question remains:
do i make both roadders spin the same way?
or couter-clockwise of each other?

[rossmum]

Once you get that fixed, it'll be looking great. I really like where this little chopper is going :D

[demonmaster3k]

i have no idea which looks right:
this:
blades going in the same direction
http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/4553/samedirectionhl2.jpg
or this:
blades going in opposite directions
http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/3791/counteractionvm9.jpg

[rossmum]

Opposite.

[Rescudo]

Opposite.

[Nic]

Opposite indeed.


And maybe turn the top rotor 45 degrees to the right, because that doesnt look too effective if they are in the same location.

[rossmum]

*waits for mined to show up*

Does that make a difference?

[mined]

Wow, I can't believe that I am awake right now. The baby and the dog decided to get each other wound up, so now my wife and I are both up trying to get them back to sleep...

...so, yeah it makes a huge difference. The concept of tandem rotor is pointless without rotating the rotor disks against each other. That is what balances out the torque and keeps the fuselage from becoming a turning object as well.

As far as turning them 45 degrees as Nic suggested, that would purely be an aesthetic issue with your model. Since the rotors would be moving opposite each other they could never stay split like that, though. In fact, the chances of the pilot actually using the rotor break to create a perfect split among the blades is probably pretty slim.

Just FYI as well... the benefits to having a single-axis tandem rotor system is that you can enter super tight LZ's without the worry of a tail rotor acting as a tree shredder. Also, in the case of a double-axis tandem rotor, it creates a safer, clearer approach and departure for troops deploying from a tail ramp.

:D

[Boo Diddly]

that reminds me of that one ER episode where *whats his name...* got his arm shreaded off by the rear roter blade of the chopper when picking up his clip board he dropped... owch. *then ironically he got killed by a chopper falling on top of him*

I'm guessing these rotor blades will hurt if you get hit by them, so go with whatever you like.

[rossmum]

Wow, I can't believe that I am awake right now. The baby and the dog decided to get each other wound up, so now my wife and I are both up trying to get them back to sleep...

...so, yeah it makes a huge difference. The concept of tandem rotor is pointless without rotating the rotor disks against each other. That is what balances out the torque and keeps the fuselage from becoming a turning object as well.

As far as turning them 45 degrees as Nic suggested, that would purely be an aesthetic issue with your model. Since the rotors would be moving opposite each other they could never stay split like that, though. In fact, the chances of the pilot actually using the rotor break to create a perfect split among the blades is probably pretty slim.

Just FYI as well... the benefits to having a single-axis tandem rotor system is that you can enter super tight LZ's without the worry of a tail rotor acting as a tree shredder. Also, in the case of a double-axis tandem rotor, it creates a safer, clearer approach and departure for troops deploying from a tail ramp.

:D
Yeah, I knew about the tip caps, I was just waiting for confirmation that the angle thing wouldn't do anything. Which I just got. :D

[Teroh]

Looks pretty good.

[demonmaster3k]

i would have done a troop compartment, but the copter isnt that big (i noticed after i made the cockpit) it's most likely going to be a one-seater with missle launchers and a chaingun (although the original plan was to have a gunship, but at least it's a flexible design, i like all of the recent changes better)

[rossmum]

Stealth attack helicopter ftw.

[TeeKup]

Nice model, although the cockpit area seems severely out of proportion with the rest of the body.

[Teroh]

Stealth attack helicopter ftw.
Perfect.

[demonmaster3k]

crisis averted, although i think the new flow of the landing gear MAY NOT WORK OUT i think it is a minor detail (considering you will only see the landing gear when your on ground) here's some update pics
(ps, i surfed the internet and looked at may sci-fi starfighter pics to get this idea, some ideas were also picked up from battlefield 2142's gunship)
and without further ado the pics:
http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/3251/landinggeartl3.jpg
more details to come
(ball joints allow the landing gear to adjust to the surface that the chopper lands on)
__________________________________________________ _____________
omfg!!! I finally gots a name for my copter!
purpose
i've decided that this will be an offensive helicopter designated to stealth hit-and-run missions. (if i can fit it, there may be a gunner's seat, but i can't garuntee anything) the pilot controlls the flight of the gunship, the gunner controls the guns (duh) the engine shafts will have thrust (omg, soo exciting, but i'm not too decided on thrust, it's just a concept) this gunship will be the most versatile aircraft in the human motorcage (notice how i said aircraft, i'm planning to make some crossover (flyable in air and vacum) craft but that will come later)
story
this aircraft was scrapped together after the great disaster, when earth became a hostile planet, with barren lands that were either scorched with the sun's radience or frozen by the expanding of the polar ice caps in the year 2569; when the multiple countries fell at the peak of human civilization on earth. fortunetaly, by that time humanity had stretched it's mighty empire to cover the entire solar system and also colonial establishments in other systems. the offworld humans provided aid to the earth survivors forming a final city on the last fertile land on the surface. the GDH (Grand Democracy of Humanity) capitol. using whatever resources they could scrounge together they crafted this helicopter to provide earth with some planetary defense from nomadic hostile survivors. the gunship (model number GHX-7728) eventually became the cornerstone of atmospheric arial support, offering a flexible strike assualt vehicle. the GHX-7728 is not operable in high altitudes or vaccums, making it a planetary-only asset. the GHD milita engineered an insertion platform to insert these craft from orbit. the insertion platform was an assualt carrier insertion pod. these pods had onboard ais and scanners that would command the pod to break open once it fell far enough into a planetary atmosphere. the helicopter would activate and initiate flight from freefall. this procedure was called an orbital insertion.

[rossmum]

Landing gear seems a tad high-poly...?

[demonmaster3k]

ok, i'm finally out of my slump and with more time than ever before i can see the model bieng finished soon, i'm working up some cockpit details and finished the FINAL landing gear
it's looking better already...
i'm afraid to do poly count this is the highest poly model i've done yet
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6708/cockpitfinishedii6.jpg
this is the the more-detailed cockpit, i decided to use a steering wheel over a yoke, if things go as planned, the pilot should be able to jerk the wheel up to make the copter pitch down, and jerk the wheel down to make the copter pitch up
there's buttons at the top ends of the steering wheel that controll the weapons; the left is for the chaingun, the right is for the concealed missles
also, i wanted to make the chair big enough to seat an armored soldier (chief, or a biped i'm planning) and have space to move around
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/4346/90completeuo2.jpg
this is the final stance of the copter, landingear is complete and i'm not touching it anymore
i still have weapon racks (things missles sit on, like a firing platform) before i can say i'm done modeling.
here's a rear-angle shot
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6999/rearanglehs7.jpg

[rossmum]

Looking nice. Very nice.

[~ZMT~Trace]

Freaking beutiful.

[mR_r0b0to]

i think you should make the whole helicopter detailed and hipoly, not just the landing gear and the rotors.

[rossmum]

Uh... generally you don't want a lot of protrusions on a stealth craft. You need to try keep the surface as sleek as possible and avoid discontinuities or things jutting out, it's just asking to be spotted by a radar.

[demonmaster3k]

the landing gear is retractable, it will look like it's never existed when it's in flight, if thats what your talking about
if the tail doesnt have that sleek of a surface i can fix it, just tell me where i need to improve
oh and btw:


i think you should make the whole helicopter detailed and hipoly, not just the landing gear and the rotors

i wanted to avoid high poly at all costs (for the sake of net lag, and ppl with low-end comps), details will be in the skin

[rossmum]

the landing gear is retractable, it will look like it's never existed when it's in flight, if thats what your talking about
if the tail doesnt have that sleek of a surface i can fix it, just tell me where i need to improve
oh and btw:


i wanted to avoid high poly at all costs (for the sake of net lag, and ppl with low-end comps), details will be in the skin
Sorry for the misunderstanding - I was replying to roboto there. What you've got now is good; with the exception of the nose sensor array and gun barb, the helicopter's design fits rather well with that of a stealth attack helicopter.

[mR_r0b0to]

lol, stealth attack helicopter... that nose array hole thing would cause that thing to have a huge radar signature :p

[Bad Waffle]

Alright, this is getting out of hand. I should have stepped in earlier, but i never checked the topic.

First of all, how can this thing even take off? the front looks WAY too lopsided to the rear. Extend the tail. Also, you need to make the cockpit thinner. There's no such thing as a stealth helicopter with two sets of blades, too much noise and ground disturbance. They just have longer blades.

The thing is also too wide, helicopters are made thin so theres less area to target. im sorry, but i just couldn't keep it in. it looks comical as it is.

[Btd69]

You think all that's bad WoL, look at his brake light:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6999/rearanglehs7.jpg

Air brakes, marvellous!

[FluffyDucky™]

Wow, i love it. To me there is nothing wrong its amazing. Wish i could do something like that. :(

[demonmaster3k]

that's not an air brake, it's an exhaust marker

Wow, i love it. To me there is nothing wrong its amazing. Wish i could do something like that. :(

thanx fluffy, and if you tried, you could do something like that too, all you need is some time and dedication
(also a lot of research)

[Btd69]

Whilst halo isn't, he is attempting to construct a model reflecting something that is real; requiring at least some accuracy.

[Nic]

that's not an air brake, it's an exhaust marker
It was a joke lmao.

Air brake, brake light... and the marker is red...

Anyways, you did alot since I last checked up on this site, looking good =]

[Btd69]

It was a joke lmao.

Air brake, brake light... and the marker is red...

Anyways, you did alot since I last checked up on this site, looking good =]
<3

[demonmaster3k]

thanks for your support guyies but (with trying out vista betas and all) my helicopter has been deleted (*oops my bad fogot to back it up, and i realised that after formatting!) don't worry, i'll remake one that's far more believable and better looking "let us rebuild from these ashes!" (hell i dont know where i got that one from)

this one's going to be fully thought over, i'm drawing it first tho.

[demonmaster3k]

yea i noticed... it looked a little cartoony
and this time, i'm going to use the ring-shaped missle carriers in the ammo compartments

[Chief117]

Are you going to make any space for passengers? like a helicopter/pelican? or is it a 1 man assault vehicle like the kestrel?

[demonmaster3k]

not sure yet, might make like a flying warthog, a gunner, couple of passangers, and pilot, or make single person gunship
i do want something
for midair ejections, i think it would be nice if a drop pod could spawn encasing the player
to protect him from the fall, like in bf2142, but i think that's impossible using halo's engine

of course this copter seems to be my most successful idea yet (glances quickly at rep)