The Windows 8 and other failed Microsoft products thread - Windows 8 "relaunches" Feb

[jcap]

Kornman, my point was that the official company logo is what the Windows 8 logo should have been. Not the retarded single color angled squares. Instead it should have been retarded multi-color squares.

Supposedly, the colors are supposed to represent the products.
Blue = Windows
Red = Office
Green = Xbox
Yellow = ??????????????????

They even fucked up with this. It should be
Blue = Windows
Red = Windows Phone (as it already is)
Green = Xbox
Yellow = Office (as it has been)

[Kornman00]

You're complaining about something of the same company which released the degenerate desktop OS known as Windows 8...we're already expecting them to churn out more bad shit, we don't need any more jcaphysteria. Or combo posts. You lazy admin. Why are you still an admin anyway?

[Warsaw]

Blue = Word
Red = Powerpoint
Green = Excel
Yellow = Outlook

Oh wait...

[DEElekgolo]

Jcap is mad again.
You should see him in irc.
He is like our dedicated w8 h8 dude.

[Zeph]

Oh my. You mean they're not using that horrible HIGH TECH identity from the 90's and instead have chosen a clean typeface? They're so horrible.

[Warsaw]

I actually like the new Microsoft logo, but I would have made the logotype black for practical reasons. That said, I am going to miss the "chrome" in all of the Microsoft stuff.

[jcap]

Tell me why the new logo is any better.

What do you like about it?

It has no class. Nothing unique about it. It's "Microsoft" wrtitten out in Paint with the Segoe UI font.

The slit between the o and the s is as iconic as the FedEx arrow. It's what separates it from being "just text".

[Amit]

I have to say the old logo was better. I hope Bill Gates is crying and will become CEO again.

[Timo]

This is good, last I heard jcap's rage powers modacity's server.

[BobtheGreatII]

Fuck it. Time to go to the 1975 logo. It was like, so much better and stuff. Damn Microsoft for putting the Windows logo in front of their name even though it's probably what they're best known for!

http://www.techieshelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Original-microsoft-logo1.jpg

[Amit]

Yo that's some retro shit!

[Warsaw]

I have to say the old logo was better. I hope Bill Gates is crying and will become CEO again.

He has stated, on multiple occasions, that he has no intentions of ever returning to Microsoft as CEO. And unfortunately, Ballmer will be with us in his current role until 2017 barring any horrendous change in the company's fortunes.

[jcap]

Ballmer's is stepping down from his current role as CEO after Windows 8's release in October (rumored)

However, he doesn't plan to retire until 2017.

Bill Gates did the same thing.

[Limited]

That new logo is going to cause endless amounts of headache. Like Jcap said, the old logo is iconic, you shouldnt fuck with brand imaging just so that you look as though you are doing things. The spacing is all kinds of fucked up in the new logo. Why the hell have they joined the F and the T?

Those who think this isnt a massive change, you are totally wrong. They are trying to bring 4 product lines together, but people will not see that.


http://asset2.cbsistatic.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/08/23/Microsoft_Logo_1980_620x236.jpg
Oh yeaaaah

[Warsaw]

In my experience, I don't find myself lingering over the company logo. I see "Windows 2000" or "Windows 7" and kind of gloss over the word "Microsoft." Their product branding is far, far more prevalent than their company branding. This is an attempt to give the company itself more visibility. I'm a computer person, we are all computer people, so we all know immediately that Windows = Microsoft. Go talk to your average Joe, and they won't necessarily make that connection right off the bat.

Also, that's a pretty cool logo. Digging the '80s style.

[Kornman00]

I'm a computer person, we are all computer people, so we all know immediately that Windows = Microsoft. Go talk to your average Joe, and they won't necessarily make that connection right off the bat.
What.

[Warsaw]

They say "I use a Mac," "I use an Apple computer," or "I use Windows." Nobody ever says "I use a Microsoft system" or "I use Microsoft Windows." The only time I see the term "Microsoft" used frequently is when people refer to the Office suite. They often say "Microsoft Office" and "Microsoft Word."

So yes. In my experience, the "Windows" branding has much higher visibility than the company name itself. People know Microsoft makes Windows, but that's not how they think about it.

[Kornman00]

They say "I use a Mac," "I use an Apple computer," or "I use Windows." Nobody ever says "I use a Microsoft system" or "I use Microsoft Windows." The only time I see the term "Microsoft" used frequently is when people refer to the Office suite. They often say "Microsoft Office" and "Microsoft Word."

So yes. In my experience, the "Windows" branding has much higher visibility than the company name itself. People know Microsoft makes Windows, but that's not how they think about it.
Apple, for the longest time, developed both the OS and the machines that they ran on. MS developed Windows then left the PC market to do whatever. No one says they "use an Apple system" either, because it just doesn't roll off the tongue. You don't need to add specifics to Windows because there are no other products like Windows (ie, OS) named Windows. On the other hand, there are multiple products that use "Office" so it does require the distinction. Again, for the longest time you could only use MacOS on an Apple-made computer.

None of your :words: help support the claim that average joes don't make the connection that Windows is of Microsoft. Nor does it help the follow up claim that they "know" MS makes it, but that's not how they think about it.

[Warsaw]

None of the people I know outside of my tech-savvy circle think about Microsoft unless they pause for a second after mentioning a Microsoft product. They see that their computer runs Windows, or that they own an Xbox, and that's the end of it. They don't go "I love Microsoft's stuff!" They break it down by product. "I like Windows" or "I prefer the Xbox" are what come out. In contrast, the Apple users I know typically lump it all under "Apple stuff" or, more simply, "Apple."

Apple making its own hardware is what makes it easy for them to get their brand out there, especially when there is a giant icon representing the company on the back of every single item they sell. Microsoft has to try a little harder. Unfortunately for them, the company logo on their products is tiny and out of the way, but the product logo itself is prominently displayed.

On the side of your console it says "XBOX 360" in huge type in three different spots, but "Microsoft" is only written with tiny font in the disclaimer sticker at the back.
Windows says "Windows XP" in huge type with a small "Microsoft" above it, or "Starting Windows" with "(C) Microsoft Corporation" in smaller fond underneath.
The Zune displays the company name in incredibly small font at the back as part of a copyright/trademark notice.
The Office suite displays it in similar fashion to the older Windows logo.

My point? Their company brand visibility is low, while their product brand visibility is high. It's a byproduct of how the company is structured, which you can go read up on in your spare time if you want.

The only icon that the less tech-oriented people I know seem to immediately relate back to Microsoft is the Windows flag. To relate back to the thread and my original statement, I think that this logo redesign, which now includes that flag (tiles?), is part of Microsoft's effort to actually try to increase the company's mindshare by building an image for itself, especially with the younger generations, because they really don't have one beyond being "the guys that make Windows." Since they are trying to become major players in other spaces, they can't afford to keep going with such a narrow typecast.

[Kornman00]

Did you...just change your avatar <:raise:>? Your posts are no longer branded as BMW ~:maddowns:~! And your logo's size out performs that of your username's so now I'll associate your posts as Corvette posts!

I'M ON TO YOU!

[Limited]

Since they are trying to become major players in other spaces, they can't afford to keep going with such a narrow typecast.
But they are using the freaking Windows logo. If I ask anyone non tech savvy, and show them the 4 panels, and mention its a logo that represents a technology, they will think Windows...yet you say Microsoft are trying to branch out.

I just find it funny, that they are trying to branch out, but trick consumers by using a very familiar look. It even uses the same font.

Like I said, even removing peoples perception what company they are going on. The spacing is awful and what the hell is the F and the T joined?

[Pooky]

Did you...just change your avatar <:raise:>? Your posts are no longer branded as BMW ~:maddowns:~! And your logo's size out performs that of your username's so now I'll associate your posts as Corvette posts!

I'M ON TO YOU!

It's the exact same avatar I used at one point :iamafag:

[Kornman00]

But they are using the freaking Windows logo
They're using the same colors the old Windows quasi-panels used, but they're not using the Windows logo (both the old and new have different window paneling styles, the MS panel is made of plain old squares). I do believe MS started off with just making OSes, so I'm pretty sure they're safe with taking their flagship product and integrating it into their new MS logo (especially if we go with Warsaw McGraw's claim of avg joes not consciously making the connection that Windows is of MS). Oh and then there's the fact that it's just a simple fucking four square dealo.

It's really no different from the way Google uses the same four colors in their Google logo and then those same colors in their Chrome logo's circle jazz

[Kornman00]

this is more tech-oriented, and not entirely about W8, but still about W8: http://rcecafe.net/?p=225

[Kornman00]

DON'T TOUCH MY CHEESE (http://www.hanselman.com/blog/Windows8ProductivityWhoMovedMyCheeseOhThereItIs.as px), NIGGA!

[Tnnaas]

It looks like Microsoft took the cheese and put it on that over-sized mousetrap known as Windows 8.

[Amit]

It looks like Microsoft took the cheese and put it on that over-sized mousetrap known as Windows 8.

I chuckled.

[Kornman00]

They forgot Halo http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/31/microsoft-unveils-first-wave-of-xbox-live-gmes-on-windows-8/

[Masterz1337]

lol @iStunt2

[Kornman00]

Win7 > WinShitPeeXP (http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/03/tech/gaming-gadgets/microsoft-windows-7/)

[Amit]

Fuck yeah!

[Amit]

Stardock says: "Fuck you Microsoft!" and fixes their GUI for them:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=SdW9tSXK3fM

[Kornman00]

Help us Stardock, you are only hope!

[Amit]

Look at that genius hybrid metro menu. Click the start button (which they added) and it brings up a resized metro intereface that can be custom resized or completely done away with. Why are these people not being contracted by Microsoft to just design the UI for them?

Eat it Win8 lovers.

[ThePlague]

I might consider windows 8 with that.

[Warsaw]

Lol, Stardock to the rescue as usual.

Also, a better fix for Metro ModernUI would be to split it into the Start screen and the Work screen. The former would be your fun tiles and shit, while the latter is a work space that houses your applications and has your jump lists on the bottom with your window functions (close, minimize) in the lower corner. What's killing the current version is them being hell-bent on full-screen applications only.

E: Oh, and its reliance on the Microsoft Marketplac--er--Store.

[Timo]

Goddamn, this ad is almost as wanky as Apples:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8mSckyoAMHg

And like the Zune it looks like it'll never end up here :<

[Zeph]

Goddamn, this ad is almost as wanky as Apples:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8mSckyoAMHg

And like the Zune it looks like it'll never end up here :<
I no longer wish to computer.
ever again.
ever.

[t3h m00kz]

Stardock says: "Fuck you Microsoft!" and fixes their GUI for them:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=SdW9tSXK3fM

I hope they bring back Windows Key functionality.

Also, changing the start button? Bitch plz. That's leet hax 101.

[Amit]

What would be extra awesome is if the apps windows were on a completely different monitor.

[Kirby_422]

Out of all the startmenu hacks I've seen, I personally like the hack to use the Windows 7 Explorer.exe in W8.
http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-Windows-8

(http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-Windows-8)It allows each user to choose which explorer they use. When using the W7 explorer, you don't have any of the Metro/ModernUI crap (unless you execute the W8 Explorer.exe)

I tried an older beta of Start8, but the fact that it tries to work alongside Metro/ModernUI rather than abolish it, I didn't like it. (My college has MSDNAA, so we've all had access to legitimate copies of the final build since forever. All of the fools that have upgraded not thinking about it, have been pleased with the W7 explorer hack. They really should of just used VMs like me trying to get a build that actually works ok.)

[jcap]

wait what WAIT WHAT THEY SERIOUSLY GOT THE W7 EXPLORER IN W8?

The problem is these hacks are still absolutely no excuse for Windows 8. You should never have to depend on third party tools to achieve basic function out of your computer.

In the case of Start8, it adds an extra peice of software to the machine which runs as a background process and becomes yet another liability requiring constant updates. It also doesn't help that it needs to be manually deployed and can't support the Windows group policies.

The W7 start menu hack for Windows 8 is a "better" long-term solution since it actually adds the code back, but since it alters the Windows 8 explorer, you will probably run into Windows Update issues. And it's even worse that this is a third party hack with no support.

[thehoodedsmack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8mSckyoAMHg

It's official. We don't know anything about computers anymore.

[§partan 8]

After reading 30 pages of this all I can say is just wow.

[Amit]

Out of all the startmenu hacks I've seen, I personally like the hack to use the Windows 7 Explorer.exe in W8.
http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-Windows-8

(http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-Windows-8)It allows each user to choose which explorer they use. When using the W7 explorer, you don't have any of the Metro/ModernUI crap (unless you execute the W8 Explorer.exe)

I tried an older beta of Start8, but the fact that it tries to work alongside Metro/ModernUI rather than abolish it, I didn't like it. (My college has MSDNAA, so we've all had access to legitimate copies of the final build since forever. All of the fools that have upgraded not thinking about it, have been pleased with the W7 explorer hack. They really should of just used VMs like me trying to get a build that actually works ok.)

If you buy a PC from a big retailer (lol!) and get Win8 installed on it, this may be useful so you don't have to reinstall Windows 7, but otherwise there's no point in upgrading to Windows 8 since this hack makes it pretty much the same as Win7.

[Timo]

Am I the only one here that's really not bugged about the new interface?

[Amit]

DIE TIMO.

[t3h m00kz]

timo you ought to get virtualbox, get the demo if it's still available and try it out for yourself~~

I only say it cuz I love you bro.

[Timo]

DIE TIMO.

How often do you really use the start menu, once everything is setup? I've got half a dozen things pinned at the top I always use, which could easily be made into a group in the metro interface. You can still hit the start button and start searching immediately as well, which is what I use to get to any app that isn't pinned.


timo you ought to get virtualbox, get the demo if it's still available and try it out for yourself~~

I only say it cuz I love you bro.
I used it for a little while and didn't see what the fuss was all about :s

[Warsaw]

I actually think the Start screen is a fantastic idea.

[Timo]

I actually think the Start screen is a fantastic idea.

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss211/gifsFOREVER/LizLemonhighfiveself.gif

[Warsaw]

:p

Seriously, it is. What sucks is their actual implementation of the window metaphor and the Microsoft store. It's a step backwards from even Windows 3.1.

[Futzy]

window 8 was my idea

[Cortexian]

Get banned.

[Futzy]

Get banned.

thank for support always appreciate u

[Amit]

MrBig, why you postin' so bad these days?

[InnerGoat]

:ironicat:



Please don't derail the thread. We can talk about his terrible posting another time. Right now we must be butthurt over Windows 8!

[Amit]

Forgive me, master.

[Cortexian]

Instead of Windows 8, Microsoft should be focusing on deploying Surface to EVERYWHERE.

[neuro]

your uterus for example

[Cortexian]

I'm open to the concept.

My unborn organisms could then start interaction pre-birth.

[Warsaw]

First Windows RT device review. (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6387/asus-vivotab-rt-review)



Viewed within a vacuum, the VivoTab RT is a strong first effort from ASUS as part of the new Windows tablet push. It’s a conservative and mature design that has proven itself in the marketplace. It’s a thin tablet with a clean, modern aesthetic that doesn’t push the boundary much. A high quality IPS display, solid performance, decent camera, a well-designed laptop dock, good battery life that becomes awesome when you include the dock - really, there isn’t too much wrong here. It’s a well-rounded, high quality product.

It doesn't sound so horrible. However, I stand by what I said in saying that the Microsoft Store is a horrible thing.

[Dozo]

Was watching tv and came across an ad for windows 8. Not only was it over 5 fucking minutes long, 90% of it was jessica watson saying how much she relies on calendars.

[=sw=warlord]

Relevant to windows 8 testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&amp;NR=1&amp;v=timfETD-N4o

[jcap]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-12-directx-11-1-exclusive-to-windows-8-microsoft-confirms

I guess you know when an operating system is miserably failing based on how hard microsoft tries to force people to it


...It's funny because when you limit this shit to only one version of an OS, you essentially ensure that it will never be supported by developers.

Expect Microsoft to bring it to W7 within 6 months after release, when only Microsoft Train Simulator and Flight Simulator are the only two games that support it, while all other big games in the pipeline refuse to touch it.

[Zeph]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-12-directx-11-1-exclusive-to-windows-8-microsoft-confirms

I guess you know when an operating system is miserably failing based on how hard microsoft tries to force people to it


...It's funny because when you limit this shit to only one version of an OS, you essentially ensure that it will never be supported by developers.

Expect Microsoft to bring it to W7 within 6 months after release, when only Microsoft Train Simulator and Flight Simulator are the only two games that support it, while all other big games in the pipeline refuse to touch it.
I've never seen so much idiocy before in my entire life.
With a new platform of Windows will come a new platform of DirectX with a subset containing all prior versions of DirectX.
There's nothing new in DX11.1 aside from better XNA integration.
There's no new tech.
Why are you complaining.

[Btcc22]

I've never seen so much idiocy before in my entire life.
With a new platform of Windows will come a new platform of DirectX with a subset containing all prior versions of DirectX.
There's nothing new in DX11.1 aside from better XNA integration.
There's no new tech.
Why are you complaining.

He's getting in before they announce DirectX 12.

What's this about XNA? Microsoft have been silent on the subject for quite some time and I can't find any references that mention XNA integration.

[Patrickssj6]

Especially since XNA is still sitting on DX9 afaik. Moved away from it since I needed some schmexy DX11 features.

New game console is going to decide whether they ditch XNA altogether.

[jcap]

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/12/steven-sinofsky-leaves-microsoft-julie-larson-green-replaces-him/

WHAT.
WHAT!?

WAITWHATWAHTHWA

Steve Sinofsky, heir to the CEO of Microsoft, also the FUCKBAG CUNTWAD PIECE OF SHIT responsible for the Windows 8 trainwreck, quit Microsoft.

Maybe there is some hope in the company's future after all...

[Timo]

u mad?

[ThePlague]

Yay!

[arbiter901]

Just stay on Windows 7 and the problems fixed.

[DarkHalo003]

Casuals I know love Windows 8. I guess it just depends on the users.

[Warsaw]

The Windows 8 and Surface RT demo booth on campus was drawing quite a crowd...

[jcap]

I don't know a single casual user who supports Windows 8. They all turn away after the first few minutes of a demo. Sure they think the commercial stuff is cool, but in reality it's as useful as an HP Touchpad running WebOS.

[Cortexian]

I fully support Windows 8 on mobile devices with a touch-based interface, the other versions for desktops and servers are dumb with the enforced not-metro though.

[neuro]

pretty much this.

it's interesting as a tablet interface, even phones.

but that shit is not for a desktop.

[Cortexian]

They should of just realized this and pushed it as the Windows Phone upgrade and left the desktop alone. Don't fix what ain't broken.

[Warsaw]

It's too bad that the Windows Phone 8 interface isn't as advanced as the Windows 8 touch interface.

Missed opportunity.

[ODX]

Just stay on Windows 7 and the problems fixed.
But WAIT
WAAAAAAAAAIT

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/2012/11/12/microsoft-dx11-1/1

YOU WON'T GET DX11.1 ON WINDOWS 7! THEREFORE YOU MUST UPGRADE NOW OR FALL BEHIND AND SUFFFEEEERRRR

Hope in the country crushed forever, jcap mad

[Zeph]

except 111 isn't that useful at all over 11.

[jcap]

It still reflects the kind of bullshit Microsoft wants to pull to force people to use a terrible OS.

What happens when DX12 comes out?

Also, here's an interesting comment from a blog of Microsoft employees:

Good riddance, Mr. Sinofsky. Unfortunately for MS, Julie Larson Green makes the man look like a genius.
Apparently she and her team of grade A dipshits are the ones who came up with this whole retarded Metro clusterfuck on Windows.

Also, Sinofsky seems to have been universally hated, and even the employees developing Windows 8 thought Metro was the wrong direction. They think the UI is a "stupid Metro 2D sesame street primary color UX" and they believe they should "re-embrace .NET, ditch metro and start building new Longhorn." While they support many Windows 8 new features, they believe UI just killed the product.

[Sanctus]

Yeah, all of that infighting on their end is definitely a good sign.... not. I don't know about any of you but I'm still using XP. It's just fine for my purposes and still functions solidly.

[Zeph]

What happens when DX12 comes out?

DX12? We'll be on Windows 10 by then.

Your butthurtedness is blinding you to how little need there is for new tech with DX11 right now.

[ODX]

except 111 isn't that useful at all over 11.That's the joke. 11.1 has almost nothing, but it's worth pointing out it's somehow "only for W8."


Also, Sinofsky seems to have been universally hated, and even the employees developing Windows 8 thought Metro was the wrong direction. They think the UI is a "stupid Metro 2D sesame street primary color UX" and they believe they should "re-embrace .NET, ditch metro and start building new Longhorn." While they support many Windows 8 new features, they believe UI just killed the product.So maybe they'll keep up the 'success fail success' pattern, and Windows 9 will be amazing?

Sign me up.

[neuro]

woop

[jcap]

Good news, guys!

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/16/3655882/windows-8-pc-sales-reportedly-well-below-microsofts-internal-projections

Halo 4 for Windows 8 incoming!

[Zeph]

They're gonna have to rebuild Hired Gun for it.
Now with 800% more not listening to the community.

[DarkHalo003]

Good news, guys!

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/16/3655882/windows-8-pc-sales-reportedly-well-below-microsofts-internal-projections

Halo 4 for Windows 8 incoming!
Inb4Buyer'sRemorse.

[Warsaw]

inb4h4vista.net

Also, I'm not surprised at the lower adoption rate. PC sales are down, most don't buy a new OS for an existing PC, and businesses don't want to have to train for Windows 8. The fact that they didn't see this coming a mile away speaks volumes about how well-managed Microsoft is.

[t3h m00kz]

Halo 4 for Windows 8 incoming!

http://i.imgur.com/y5QZ9.gif

[§partan 8]

They been promoting Windows 8 at my work.

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae185/johnipt8/20121119_143314.jpg

[ThePlague]

I'm running on it now, it's a little change of pace, but not much different tbh. All my shit runs perfectly fine, and since I use the desktop most of the time anyway i'm fine with metro. It actually kinda helps, being able to just click the windows button and find the shit you need right there.

Only fucked up thing I had to fix was shorten my page file, because BF3 and AMD don't like windows 8 for some reason.

[Warsaw]

I think that the primary issue with Windows 8 is the shift to using a built-in, Microsoft-operated "marketplace" for applications. This has potential to get really hairy later on.

As far as Metro is concerned, the biggest issue for me is that it's not very well integrated into Windows. Actually, it's more like the two interfaces are not properly integrated with each other. It feels rather hacked-together. I found that not having a touch screen is a relative non-issue on a desktop since I spend more time in the desktop.

[jcap]

Also that:



UAC is now in your face, everywhere. It's essentially forced now. Even if you set it to "never notify", and even if you are an administrator, applications do not run as administrator. By default, even when UAC is "disabled," administrators are forced to be in Admin Approval Mode. So basically, UAC is not completely disabled, even when you think it is. This is why you cannot launch a command prompt as administrator without right clicking on it and choosing "run as administrator". The only way to "fix" this is to disable it through the local security policy, but doing that prohibits ALL metro apps from functioning. Microsoft has made it more difficult to perform maintenance on your own computer, and they have taken away my control by prohibiting functions from working when a certain setting is ticked.
Safe mode is now a pain in the ass to access. The advanced boot options screen only accessible by first booting into the Windows 8 recovery and then clicking through the 6 screens to finally say that you want to use the legacy boot options screen. Also, the window for pressing F8 is so narrow now that I miss it most of the time. I realize the “proper” way is to hold down shift+restart from within Windows, but what if your computer doesn’t boot normally? Then it’s just a pain in the ass to have to dig through the recovery options.
The new task manager DOES NOT REMEMBER THE LAST TAB YOU WERE ON. I always used the processes tab in the task manager. Thankfully, Microsoft wasn’t stupid enough to get rid of that, but instead they renamed it to “details”. However, if I use the details tab, then close out, and then reopen the task manager, it defaults to the first tab. Also, the amount of padding on every element in the task manager is simply a waste of space. While not a functional issue, it forces the window to be larger than it really needs to be.
“Previous Versions for Shadow Copies is removed. The half-baked replacement is the File History feature which is only for certain file types (documents, music, videos and pictures) in Libraries, desktop and browser favorites. Previous Versions worked for any generic file type in any folder. File History does not even support EFS-encrypted files! File History is supposed to replace both "Previous Versions for Shadow Copies" as well as "Windows Backup and Restore" and it doesn't do 100% of either of the features it "replaces".” This is a quote from a Technet post. I have had several instances in the past where I needed to use Previous Versions for files not located in my documents folder. I have had to use it for my program files folder, when I accidentally screwed up a program. I have also had to use it when I needed to recover a folder I accidentally deleted from my desktop. Or, one time I messed up a program’s configuration in my AppData folder. So, I can’t depend on Windows to save my ass anymore?
“Folder conflict prompt when merging/overwriting folders is removed. Explorer silently merges subfolders in a copy operation, you cannot choose entire subfolders to skip or overwrite.” This sucks because I commonly want to merge two folders while choosing specific actions for some files. And sometimes I don’t want to merge folders at all.
Also, the delete prompt is now gone. Windows just sends your files directly to the recycle bin. You can disable this by changing the recycle bin properties, but I don’t understand why they removed an extra safety feature, especially for laptop keyboards where the delete key may be crammed between two other frequently used keys.
Memory addresses and other technical information has been removed from the Windows 8 bug check screen (BSOD). The memory addresses were extremely useful for debugging purposes. Sure, they are written to the event log now, but what if the system is unbootable? Or, what if the drive controller is ultimately causing the BSODs, but you are unable to diagnose it because the information is not written to the disk and very limited information is presented on the BSOD screen?
“The command line tools DiskPart.exe and the Disk Management GUI are being deprecated (deprecation is a status applied to features, characteristics, or practices to indicate that they should be avoided, typically because they have been superseded) and replaced by the WMIv2-based Windows Storage Management API with the Storage PowerShell command line utility. Dynamic Disks are being deprecated as part of this transition. (GUI for Disk Management deprecated and replaced by command line? - way to go!)”
msconfig startup tab has been replaced by the startup tab in the task manager. While I do like the new feature that tells you the impact each process has on your startup, I don’t like the fact that it now omits all the useful information msconfig contained. Sure, it tells you the process name, but what about the path? Msconfig was really useful in quick diagnosing to determine whether a startup entry was malicious or not based on the location of the entry and the command. Now you are heavily dependent on downloading tools such as Autoruns. EDIT: Apparently it IS POSSIBLE to find out the PATH of the startup entries by either right clicking on their name and selecting open file location, OR you can right click the column and choose display the file path column. HOWEVER, it still doesn't give you the actual registry key name so you can manually delete the entry instead of simply disabling it.
Who is the idiot who thought it was a good idea to segregate the control panel? I think a metro version is good, but why the hell couldn’t they just keep the old features in their place, while making a new additional front-end for metro? EXAMPLE: Try adding a user to your computer. The link from the control panel to Metro is even called “Add a new user in PC settings”.
File operations like Rename can not be undone for UAC-protected locations
Whenever Windows 8 shuts down unexpectedly, it always FORCES you into a BULLSHIT “diagnostics” which takes several minutes to complete and doesn’t “fix” jack shit. If I lost power from a small power failure, or because I manually reset the computer, I don’t need Windows to waste my time diagnosing a nonexistent issue.
There’s no more frequently used list in the start menu. I liked this. I go through phases where I use some programs more than others, and I don’t want to have to constantly pin/unpin programs to either my taskbar or start screen. Also, pinning to the taskbar just creates clutter, especially when icons for unopened applications are mixed in with currently running applications.
The fact that applications can no longer set their file associations is just a joke. At least they should make it so signed applications can set their file associations. When I install Firefox, if I want to make it my default browser, it’s a hassle to have to take several more steps to accomplish a simple task. No normal users are ever going to do this...which I guess is good for Microsoft since it means IE will remain the default browser for most computers. EXAMPLE: Just go into Firefox and click the button to set the browser as default. It opens up the Windows Set Default Programs dialog box, where you have to select the program from the list, followed by you clicking “Set this program as default”. This isn’t a complaint at the top of my list, but it takes several more steps than it used to take.
The View Compatibility Files link for UAC-protected folders has been removed from Explorer. So now if an application writes to the virtual folders, you need to find a more difficult way to actually access those files.
The Start screen search sucks. I mean, it’s fast, but it sucks. It doesn’t display all search categories simultaneously, so I can’t simply search for something like “Firewall” and press enter, as I could do in Windows 7 to launch the Windows Firewall. Now I have to search for Firewall, click settings, and finally click the Windows Firewall. Microsoft could have simply defaulted to the next available category of search results if the first category was empty, but the dipshits didn’t have the foresight to do that and broke a perfectly functional search feature.
Chkdsk doesn’t display any useful information when it runs during startup besides the percent complete. Any file system corrections are hidden, so you’re left completely in the dark. At least when it displayed the chkdsk information before, even if chkdsk didn’t fix the disk and the system was still unbootable, some people would report that they got thousands of messages saying it was deleting indexes. The fact that they saw this information helps understand problems!
Windows 8 in a window, whether a VM or a remote desktop, is a complete joke. Hot corners? Yeah have fun cramming your pointer into a nonexistent window corner. It’s shit like this that makes me wonder if Microsoft even thought about the consequences of removing actual buttons.

[Amit]

^ I'm not reading that.

[Tnnaas]

Read that. Fuck Microsoft.

http://i.imgur.com/Opv98.gif

[Patrickssj6]

I fucking LOVE my Windows 8 Phone

[InnerGoat]

Windows 8 was jcap's idea....

[Rosco]

Buyer's remorse: an open letter to the developers of windows 8

Jcap posts his desk and explains in rossmum detail about how terrible Win8 is

[Masterz1337]

I fucking LOVE my Windows 8 Phone
Same here, my 920 is byfar the best phone I've ever owned.

[Patrickssj6]

I own the HTC 8S and for 250 Euros you just cannot go wrong.

http://www.htc.com/assets-desktop/images/home-page/common/wp-8s-360/blue/wp8_04.png

Not many quality apps but live-tiles...srsly..the best invention since sliced bread. I feel like my phone is a living thing, changing its design constantly so you'll never get bored of it and you get the information right on the main screen.

[Warsaw]

^ I'm actually waiting on the grey/yellow HTC 8S, because it looks so 90s...
http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/WP-8S-by-HTC-High-Rise-Grey-3views-580x413.png

Though Nokia is also rumoured to be working on a device that will mimic the ZuneHD in style and build, so that may be something to look out for.

[Kornman00]

A couple months old but still a good read: http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/the_next_twenty_years_what_.php?print=1

Or if you prefer a paged article that isn't blinding with white: http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/the_next_twenty_years_what_.php

[Kornman00]

http://aciai.me/i/cfCO.jpg

http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4481162#xx4481162xx

[Amit]

Funny, but it has the XP on the end. ShittyXp. That's what I see, not ShittyW8. Still, they should sue microsoft for swearing at them and put the money towards assisted suicide for buying OEM Windows 8 to install.

[Ki11a_FTW]

Was playing with windows 8 at the store the other day.. for some reason this came to mind:

nUv5Q9we_l4

[Kornman00]

Funny, but it has the XP on the end. ShittyXp. That's what I see, not ShittyW8. Still, they should sue microsoft for swearing at them and put the money towards assisted suicide for buying OEM Windows 8 to install.
I think he was more so going for 'shitty experience', as the install failed without detail after this screen, causing him to have to restart the install from scratch

[ThePlague]

After trying W8 for a week, it was a really shitty experience when it came to backwards compatibility. Other then that, it was meh. Maybe with a service pack comes out for it i'll give it another try, but until that W7 Supremacy.

[Pooky]

It will probably be a long while before I upgrade to a newer version of Windows again. Backwards compatibility is already dodgy enough with Win7, and I'm too attached to my Windows 95 games.

[Patrickssj6]

It will probably be a long while before I upgrade to a newer version of Windows again. Backwards compatibility is already dodgy enough with Win7, and I'm too attached to my Windows 95 games.
Virtual Machines...they are like...inception...windows within windows

[Kornman00]

You should run a Windows 8 VM inside of a Win95 VM inside of a Win7 VM :downs:

[Tnnaas]

But I'm on my XP right now. :saddowns:

[Patrickssj6]

you mean limbo

[Bodzilla]

fuck pat i cant rep you >:U

[Patrickssj6]

fuck pat i cant rep you >:U
no problem

press q to harvest - press r to rescue bodzilla


qqqqqqqq

[Warsaw]

It will probably be a long while before I upgrade to a newer version of Windows again. Backwards compatibility is already dodgy enough with Win7, and I'm too attached to my Windows 95 games.

Dawss Bawx.

Windows 98 era is actually pretty hard to get compatible. COME BACK BATTLEZONE I NEED YOU.

[Rosco]

contrary to jcap's rants about how terrible windows 8 is


i put it on a laptop and a desktop of mine to play about with because the license keys were dirt cheap

wasn't disappointed at all.. from a work standpoint - cloud apps, citrix receiver, teamviewer, calendar syncing, mail accounts & remote desktop all work perfectly fine with a faster load time.. so for remote work when you're travelling it's actually pretty good. especially with the live tiles making it so much quicker to navigate.. in terms of policy settings and security it's all been smooth and i haven't ran into issues there either. i am aware that this is a particular target audience which doesn't suit everybody, but still, i've had a far more socially connected experience using accounts to sync up music and photos with the apps available, so.. I guess each to their own, you might find it's better to stick to 7 especially with the infamous compatibility issues. That's why I have dual booting in case I actually do run into that problem... but


dafuq is wrong with your tits jcap? CALM THEM

[Amit]

Wtf Rosco. Prepare to be destroyed once he sees that post.

[Rosco]

Wtf Rosco. Prepare to be destroyed once he sees that post.

I doubt it, jcap knows better than to take the bait troolololololololloololololol


but heh, he's got completely legitimate reason to be pointing out those issues, not really sure exactly who jcap represents as a target audience, but they are quite clearly forced to take unnecessary steps to carry on productivity in the os.. I just thought it was hilarious how large the post was though. Not really worth getting that worked up when you can just say "no" to using it

It does suit a phone far better though, I fucking love my lumia.

edit edit edit

suddenly everyone has an enormous amount of green bars, good job guys rossmum would probably be given [terrible illness] by it heh

[Patrickssj6]

I love my Windows 8 phone and I don't hop onto the "everything microsoft does sucks" bandwagon (love my Zune as well for that matter) but Windows 8 was the first operating system that got me frustrated. Not because of small changes one could get used to but the those "what the fuck were you thinking"-"features". A computer is complicated enough but now you even have to explain ppl why there are 2 Internet Explorers and why they run simutanously but are still different etc. arghhhhh

[Timo]

Been running W8 for a couple of weeks now and the only thing that's annoying me is full screen metro play is often broken by opening apps that were previously opened on that monitor. Instead of shifting the window to my secondary monitor, it just closes the program.

[Rosco]

I love my Windows 8 phone and I don't hop onto the "everything microsoft does sucks" bandwagon (love my Zune as well for that matter) but Windows 8 was the first operating system that got me frustrated. Not because of small changes one could get used to but the those "what the fuck were you thinking"-"features". A computer is complicated enough but now you even have to explain ppl why there are 2 Internet Explorers and why they run simutanously but are still different etc. arghhhhh

Agreed, there's a few things that confuse me but to be honest you have to expect it when something different is brought to the table. It wasn't going to be perfect, and this is certainly an indication of the vast improvements to be made in the future..

I like that I don't have to click on the start key to access programs (while the argument can be made that shortcuts can be added to the taskbar and desktop, I didn't like that cluttered look personally).. instead I log in and they're there; and some of them are even animated nicely and update!

I don't like the silly way shutting down is implemented. However, I adjusted to it accordingly and now I think little of it at all. I also don't like that everything's full screen within metro.. but then this is a feature that makes sense when you can install these same programs the classic way on the desktop and be productive with multiple things, and when you don't need to do multiple things, use metro and switch between tabs quickly when you don't need a bunch of things visible at once. It's organisation I feel a large number of people have completely missed. Feels like the beginnings of something with a vast amount of potential.

[Warsaw]

It's not the fact that W8 is different that's killing it, it's that they tried to have their cake and eat it, too. They should have thoroughly designed a single new UI that harmoniously allows for multi-window, task management, and touch. Instead, they got lazy, made a UI for touch, and then stitched it onto the old thing. Not including the app store, Windows 8 is better than Windows 7 under the hood. They were brave enough to completely ditch their old UI with Windows Mobile, so why the hesitation with Windows 8? If you do a good job with the new UI, there's nothing to fear. The UI on WP7 was fantastic..how they missed with the desktop is mind-boggling.

I want to like Windows 8, but it's so visually and functionally jarring within itself; split personality. I hope they return to the drawing board for Windows Blue and do it right.

[Rosco]

It's not the fact that W8 is different that's killing it, it's that they tried to have their cake and eat it, too. They should have thoroughly designed a single new UI that harmoniously allows for multi-window, task management, and touch. Instead, they got lazy, made a UI for touch, and then stitched it onto the old thing. Not including the app store, Windows 8 is better than Windows 7 under the hood. They were brave enough to completely ditch their old UI with Windows Mobile, so why the hesitation with Windows 8? If you do a good job with the new UI, there's nothing to fear. The UI on WP7 was fantastic..how they missed with the desktop is mind-boggling.

I want to like Windows 8, but it's so visually and functionally jarring within itself; split personality. I hope they return to the drawing board for Windows Blue and do it right.

It's almost like they listened to the fans who were not ready to let go of the desktop.. Would be hilarious if that were the case

[Warsaw]

Actually, that is kind of what they did. What Microsoft doesn't get is that Apple didn't get to where it is by caring what the fans think, it took some initiative, made a product, told everybody "this is how it is, here is how you use it, deal with it," and then laughed all the way to the bank for the next 13 years.

[Ki11a_FTW]

So is anyone using this OS now? My comp has been acting weird the past couple of months and I have been meaning to do a fresh install so I can just start new, however I can't find my original windows 7 disk (box probably got lost when I moved to this house). I was thinking about just picking windows 8 in a couple of days. I've been reading on some other forums that people have been enjoying it and don't face many compatibly issues.

It's been awhile since I've added to my PC (I built this machine in 09). Of course it was top of the line then, but I'd like to upgrade a couple things just so I can stop worrying about it. This would involve:

Purchasing Windows 8
Purchasing a Direct X 11 Graphics card

I need to still be able to use 3ds max 8, HEK, and Halo CE without an issue, so if anyone knows of any issues with that please let me know. I am also a developer for CryEngine and Source SDK.

Like I said, I've been hearing a lot of positive reviews from some guys at facepunch, and instead of buying windows 7 again, I'm thinking of at least buying the newest thing out there so it would at least be something different and new for the money.

[Timo]

It's all good, a bit faster than 7. Once you get over the new start menu and the other new bits and pieces you'll be fine.

[Zeph]

Killa, you want an .iso for win7? You should know that the FreeSDK has issues with win8. They should be resolved when 3.5 rolls around, but that could be as long as late summer.

[Rosco]

It's all good, a bit faster than 7. Once you get over the new start menu and the other new bits and pieces you'll be fine.

This, learning the newer navigation isn't difficult, load times are very much improved (from a 5400 rpm hdd i was shocked haha)

The way to look at it is support is pretty much being worked on all the time, whether or not people like it.. LOL@ vista business machines

[arbiter901]

Downloading a. iso for windows 7 should be completely legal as long as you have a CD key. If you lost it you can just use product key viewer.

[Kirby_422]

I need to still be able to use 3ds max 8, HEK, and Halo CE without an issue, so if anyone knows of any issues with that please let me know.
You wont be able to use 3dsmax8. You know how in Windows 7 it changes to that basic theme mode? it does that for a reason. W8 can't do it, so the program slowly breaks every time you use it. Anytime you use context menus, etc, it will freeze part of the view port; you have to restart 3dsmax to fix it. So, unless you want to restart 3dsmax every few minutes (however often you use menus, etc), then its not worth it. Microsoft should have direct downloads on their servers for W7, google those links up, and grab the ISO from them, then just use your current key.

Anyways, out of the applications I tried, the compatibility is similar to using WINE in linux, plus the fact how its almost impossible to do what you want now (you have to use regedit for a lot of things now. If you're someone who hates UAC, you need regedit to actually disable it. Even the 'off' option still asks you for permission. for all the icon height, width, etc, that you'd normally get in the advanced desktop area, you need regedit.. and the numbers aren't even listed the same way, its not in pixels.. Doing what you want in W8 REALLY, REALLY, sucks)

[Masterz1337]

^So no HEK+ either then?

[Ki11a_FTW]

Also, another thing, I have 2 hard drives in my computer, say I were to reinstall windows 7 or 8 on my primary, could i just put all of the files i want to keep on my secondary? Or will the clean install refresh the secondary drive as well?

[Warsaw]

Word to the wise, I've read reports saying that using a Windows 8 UPGRADE​ license nullifies your Windows 7 license permanently.

[Rosco]

Word to the wise, I've read reports saying that using a Windows 8 UPGRADE​ license nullifies your Windows 7 license permanently.

might be hdd specific or something idk.. but I certainly had a working 7 oem license even after using a windows 8 upgrade license, as I installed another hdd with that win7 license in my probook for dual booting after ugrading my original drive to 8 from that same oem license..

[jcap]

http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574830/windows-9-start-menu-new-desktop-experience

Also reposting http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?24354-The-Windows-8-and-other-failed-Microsoft-products-thread-Windows-8-quot-relaunches-quot-Feb&p=614375&viewfull=1#post614375


Also also just posting that this new start menu looks like the inbred child of metro and the old start menu. #1 please ditch the fugly windows 8 flat style. #2 please for the love of god support consistency with useful shortcuts to standard areas on a computer that are default on every system and cannot be disabled or accidentally removed by the user (Computer, Network, Control Panel, Devices and Printers, <name_of_currently_logged_in_user_root>)

I still don't understand why they still refuse to highlight the usefulness of tiles if done right. For tiles to be successful, everything needs to be live - like tile widgets. The tile for the weather app needs to show the current conditions (which you click on to get the full forecast). The mail app should give you the latest message subject and/or sender (and clicking on it should bring you straight to the message). The Music tile should be the "now playing" song and album art (background), and it should have live controls for pause, stop, skip, or jumping to playlist. Twitter should display the latest tweet. Basically, they NEED to turn the start menu into a combination of jump lists, notification menus, and a dashboard. They've failed to do that for two years with Windows 8.

Edit: Oh I also really like the new CEO. He's a pretty cool guy. He's from the only successful part of Microsoft (the business sector) which makes up over 80% of Microsoft's profits and doesn't fuck around. If you haven't checked out their enterprise products, they're really awesome. They know what's up. Unlike the clusterfuck Windows division.

[Tnnaas]

Also also just posting that this new start menu looks like the inbred child of metro and the old start menu. #1 please ditch the fugly windows 8 flat style. #2 please for the love of god support consistency with useful shortcuts to standard areas on a computer that are default on every system and cannot be disabled or accidentally removed by the user (Computer, Network, Control Panel, Devices and Printers, <name_of_currently_logged_in_user_root>)
Sounds like too much to ask from Microsoft. Please let them grow beyond building with Duplo blocks first and ask again. :v

[jcap]

Sounds like too much to ask from Microsoft. Please let them grow beyond building with Duplo blocks first and ask again. :v
Windows 10

[Phopojijo]

Great, now your mobile phone will go rampant in a half-dozen (or so) years. (trollolololol)

[Btcc22]

If you haven't checked out their enterprise products, they're really awesome.

Sure, I believe you. :ehhh:

[jcap]

I still don't understand why they still refuse to highlight the usefulness of tiles if done right. For tiles to be successful, everything needs to be live - like tile widgets. The tile for the weather app needs to show the current conditions (which you click on to get the full forecast). The mail app should give you the latest message subject and/or sender (and clicking on it should bring you straight to the message). The Music tile should be the "now playing" song and album art (background), and it should have live controls for pause, stop, skip, or jumping to playlist. Twitter should display the latest tweet. Basically, they NEED to turn the start menu into a combination of jump lists, notification menus, and a dashboard. They've failed to do that for two years with Windows 8.

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-posts-then-pulls-videos-showing-interactive-windows-8-live-tiles

It's only taking them 3 years to get Windows 8 into an "acceptable" state. The writing wasn't on the wall back then, if they had just listened.

Please make me president of the Windows division, thanks.

[Tnnaas]

An "acceptable" state still doesn't benefit power users. The functionaloity of the live tiles is actually pretty cool though, but I've never been able to sit down and actually play with a machine running the latst Windows 8.1 update. I'll try keeping bias to a minimum, but I have enough quirk settings ducktaped to my machine that jumping from it to Windows 8.1 might be annoying and awkward.

My mother got a Nokia Lumia or whatever running the latest version Windows Phone 8. Maybe the interactivity between phone and PC would be pretty beneficial for her at work and home. Me on the otherhand, I'll wait until the next Windows XP SP1 of the future comes out; Windows 10 or something, or by then it might be called Windows One. :v

Also, you must post desk before being promoted to president of Windows, jcap.

[Rosco]

It's only taking them 3 years to get Windows 8 into an "acceptable" state. The writing wasn't on the wall back then, if they had just listened.

Please make me president of the Windows division, thanks.

"they're just..

they're just taking windows and they're raping it"


- jcap on windows 8

[Amit]

Windows 9's start menu:

http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4791688/windows9leak1.jpg

Microsoft really knows how to fuck up things that work and replace them with things that make no sense. Fucking ads in your start menu.

[Tnnaas]

Are those ads? I thought they were Windows Apps aka a feature (a dumb feature, but a Win8/9 feature nonetheless).

[Zeph]

Are those ads? I thought they were Windows Apps aka a feature (a dumb feature, but a Win8/9 feature nonetheless).
likely something rss based

[Rentafence]

Theyre obviously metro applications you can pin to the start menu. Are you guys really that autistic?

[Amit]

Are those ads? I thought they were Windows Apps aka a feature (a dumb feature, but a Win8/9 feature nonetheless).

Quite obviously an news app/widget of some sort, but an ad nonetheless. Honestly, who really wants that shit clogging up their start menu?

[Zeph]

Theyre obviously metro applications you can pin to the start menu. Are you guys really that autistic?

Umm, my left turn signal clacked 71 times before I could make a left turn to my bank today.

[Warsaw]

Forget about the ads, it's still a hacked-together bit of UI.

[Zeph]

http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/22/5928219/microsoft-will-merge-windows-into-one-os

[EX12693]

Fucking stupid idea

[Warsaw]

Not if they can solve their UI woes.

[Tnnaas]

Maybe we can get the Halo MC Saga Deluxe 4-Game HD Pack on Windows now. :v:

One unified OS and all, instead of having Windows, Xbone, and WinPhone separate.

[Amit]

Interesting, but still not of relevance to PC Gamers: Microsoft announces Xbox One game streaming to Windows PC and tablets

(http://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-announces-xbox-one-game-streaming-to-windows-pc-and-tablets/)Also, M$ is either very confident in Windows 10 or they are trying to sucker people into upgrading to it with this next one:

Windows 10 Upgrade Free for Owners of Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1 (http://www.pcgamer.com/windows-10-upgrade-free-for-owners-of-windows-7-and-81/)

[Spartan314]

I'm on Windows 8.1 right now. It's too early to say, but is 10 really that much better from 8.1?
I could be jumping from the pan into the fire.

[Cortexian]

It's looking significantly better so far. I really like the technical preview.

[Dwood]

Really though, a fixed start menu is the best they could come up with to entice me to move from win 7?

Inb4 local accounts disabled, ms account required to log in hurr durr.

[Warsaw]

They still haven't updated desktop icons to be in-line with the flattened, single-color look of the rest of the UI. These icons are straight out of Vista and need to get gone.

That said, I'm on Windows 8.1 Professional. It has been faster, more stable, and generally less hassle than Windows 7 Professional ever was. I hope Windows 10 is just as smooth.

[JackalStomper]

That said, I'm on Windows 8.1 Professional. It has been faster, more stable, and generally less hassle than Windows 7 Professional ever was. I hope Windows 10 is just as smooth.


this