Questioning the Concepts of Ownership

[Rainbow Dash]

We're at the point where people and corporations are actually trying to stake ownership to the moon (http://articles.cnn.com/2008-05-19/tech/moon.land_1_moon-dennis-hope-lunar-land?_s=PM:TECH). So I figure it's about time we had a discussion on the concepts of ownership and bring forward more healthy discussion as to when it goes too far, and whether we're outgrowing this ancient concept.

Obviously, in order for someone to take ownership of something, they have to transfer the ownership from someone else, you can't just walk into a newly built home, or naturally formed cave, and stake ownership to it right? Of course not. Going back to the moon though, you would be hard pressed to find a sane individual who would be alright with someone just deciding they owned the moon and that was enough. The reason why you'd have such a hard time finding people who think that's acceptable, is because you would have to be fucking insane to accept that.

Now, I'd like to transfer this thinking to our planet, where almost everything is for sale. How did ownership come into existence? Who gave the rights to our natural resources, and land to these random people? It's purpose was a legal protection back when basic life sustaining resources were scarce. However now we live in a post scarcity society when it comes to most goods. Again though, ownership of the Earth's resources came out of nowhere. Someone, somewhere, sometime, just decided he owned something. But wait, that sounds just as silly as people staking ownership to the moon.


Well, yeah. Humans like to have things.

Also since this is fitting here, I'd like to quickly explain why this quote is totally wrong. Nobody wants a house, they want the shelter it provides. Nobody wants a car, they want the transportation, or entertainment it provides. (etc)

If you think about this, ownership is an incredibly inefficient, and wasteful concept, it forces us to produce more goods and use more resources to meet the needs of the world population, when instead, most goods could be shared between everybody. For instance, cars tend to spend a lot of their lifetime sitting in a driveway or parking lot, when it would make far more sense to provide the use of that car to someone else, to ensure it's in use as much as possible. In doing so we could then produce significantly less cars, and use far less natural resources, while fulfilling the same amount of need.

[Limited]

Obviously, in order for someone to take ownership of something, they have to transfer the ownership from someone else, you can't just walk into a newly built home, and stake ownership to it right? Of course not.Actually, you kind of can. See squatters - okay so they dont take ownership but do claim occupation and cannot be removed, even by forceful entry of the proper owner.

[Higuy]

Ownership to an indiviual normally comes becuase they purchased it with thier money. In the sense of a car, the consumer bought it from the dealer, who bought from the manufacturer, who got the resources to make that car from the people who have the resources. The people that have those resources have them becuase they found them and put in the effort to get them from the Earth and sell it to the people who can use them and turn it into something profitable. However the people who "own" the resoucres have to pay others to get them out for them. The most likely purchased the land its on from the Goverment, who protects that land (look below).

To the moon concept, the only possible way someone could claim ownership of the entire moon (or a large amount of land! ie a contient or country) is if they had some force to protect the ownership, such as a military or a giant fucking laser beam that could destroy the earth. (etc)

Protecting land like your house from crazy people is the law. If the government wanted to take it just cuz they want to, that would be illegal and there are (at least in my country!) checks and balances to protect a owner from that.

Anyway lastly I found it annoying that all you guys ever do is debate but never actually seem to do anything about it.

[Rainbow Dash]

The people that have those resources have them becuase they found them.

Sorry but, "I found it therefore it's mine", doesn't hold any water whatsoever.



Anyway lastly I found it annoying that all you guys ever do is debate but never actually seem to do anything about it.

Iw8YVBbQgNg

[Higuy]

Still dosent change the fact you dont do squat!


Sorry but, "I found it therefore it's mine", doesn't hold any water whatsoever.

Actually it does. Would you like it if you found something really cool and the goverment just took it from you?

[Rainbow Dash]

Still dosent change the fact you dont do squat!

There is no way you have watched the fucking video in two minutes.

[Rainbow Dash]

Actually it does. Would you like it if you found something really cool and the goverment just took it from you?

You're thinking about this entirely wrong. The government can't stake ownership to something that can't be legitimately owned in the first place any more than you can.

[Higuy]

There is no way you have watched the fucking video in two minutes.

Why should I have to watch something that doesn't interest me to watch it?

You could call yourself an "educator" by debating with random people on Modacity (or other websites if you go to them), but that still dosen't change the fact that you probably haven't taken any action to better the world you live in. Not implying I have either, but if you behold yourself as such, I would imagine that you would have done something by now.

[Rainbow Dash]

Why should I have to watch something that doesn't interest me to watch it?

You don't have to, but if you're not going to give the slightest bit of thought to anything I post here, you might as well stop posting in this thread!



You could call yourself an "educator" by debating with random people on Modacity (or other websites if you go to them),

At what point does trying to make people think finally become equatable with "doing something" Higuy?


...but that still dosen't change the fact that you probably haven't taken any action to better the world you live in. I would imagine that you would have done something by now.

rrrrrrgggghhhh

Mass awakening is the only way things are going to improve, and the internet is a great channel for spreading information. If you have suggestions for something that can spread new information even faster and more effectively, please, tell me, that would be very helpful!

[Limited]

Years ago my friend got 'a piece of the moon' for his birthday, you know the joke present claiming ownership of a piece of land on the moon. Problem is the company earned money by selling this 'piece of land'.

[Higuy]

At what point does trying to make people think finally become equatable with "doing something" Higuy?

It's not that your not doing something by making people think, its rather that your giving them a thing to debate about and then also attempting to force or imply your opinion while giving it, thus attempting to change their opinion to yours. Not saying you can't voice your opinion, but generally the people who don't participate in debating and genuinely watch things unfold between debaters usually tend to see things in a very different manner.

And I watched the video now. While I can agree that you need to educate lots of people things in order to change a massive view, people also need to let their own opinions develop.

[PopeAK49]

Mass awakening is the only way things are going to improve, and the internet is a great channel for spreading information. If you have suggestions for something that can spread new information even faster and more effectively, please, tell me, that would be very helpful!

If anything, the internet ruined activism. Back during the civil rights era, when no internet was used for communication, people would 'physically' join groups. Physically joining a group and doing something as an activist will likely spark motivation. The virtual era lets you 'join' groups but most people do not participate in event because they are not motivated due to a lack of physical communication. You should read "The Revolution Will Not Be Tweeted" (http://www.twq.com/11autumn/docs/11autumn_Alterman.pdf) by Jon B. Alterman. Its an interesting read and seeing how you are an activist in some sort of way, it should be fun.

[Rainbow Dash]

It's not that your not doing something by making people think, its rather that your giving them a thing to debate about and then also attempting to force or imply your opinion while giving it, thus attempting to change their opinion to yours. Not saying you can't voice your opinion, but generally the people who don't participate in debating and genuinely watch things unfold between debaters usually tend to see things in a very different manner.

And I watched the video now. While I can agree that you need to educate lots of people things in order to change a massive view, people also need to let their own opinions develop.

huh

opinions?

what fucking opinions?

The only one I see in my first post is the one saying I figured it was about time we discussed this.


If anything, the internet ruined activism. Back during the civil rights era, when no internet was used for communication, people would 'physically' join groups. Physically joining a group and doing something as an activist will likely spark motivation. The virtual era lets you 'join' groups but most people do not participate in event because they are not motivated due to a lack of physical communication. You should read "The Revolution Will Not Be Tweeted" (http://www.twq.com/11autumn/docs/11autumn_Alterman.pdf) by Jon B. Alterman. Its an interesting read and seeing how you are an activist in some sort of way, it should be fun.

Absolutely, but knowing is half the battle, and the more people who are knowledgable about why our system sucks, and how we could fix it, the better a chance we have of preventing another massive fuck up of a system from taking hold afterwards.

[DarkHalo003]

I hate the topic of ownership when it boils down in philosophical means. For instance, John Locke says all property is up for grabs until someone takes it. Rousseau states that ownership is determined based off of agreements and acknowledgements between the Sovereign, State, the owner, and everyone else.

[Higuy]

huh

opinions?

what fucking opinions?

The only one I see in my first post is the one saying I figured it was about time we discussed this.

V


If you think about this, ownership is an incredibly inefficient, and wasteful concept, it forces us to produce more goods and use more resources to meet the needs of the world population, when instead, most goods could be shared between everybody. For instance, cars tend to spend a lot of their lifetime sitting in a driveway or parking lot, when it would make far more sense to provide the use of that car to someone else, to ensure it's in use as much as possible. In doing so we could then produce significantly less cars, and use far less natural resources, while fulfilling the same amount of need.

Pretty sure thats your opinion. It's also called communism.

[PopeAK49]

Absolutely, but knowing is half the battle, and the more people who are knowledgable about why our system sucks, and how we could fix it, the better a chance we have of preventing another massive fuck up of a system from taking hold afterwards.

Indeed, I did not think about that. So its pretty much like trying to earn a certification for a job or to achieve a goal. You read and learn about what is going on in your field of study, but once you get physical experience in doing so, you will be able to master what you know and use it to your advantage. Sure, having people that know how the system works is nice, but they will be rendered 'stupid' until they learn how to physically execute. Its sad that the interent contained activism in a virtual world. If you want to put togeather a 'real' activism group, get rid of online interaction and physically speak on what ideas you support.

Tell you what, if you can create a group locally and set up meeting times to meet physically (sort of like a club) with people in real life, I guarantee you will get a lot further in what you are trying to achieve. I have respect for gays who form 'Gay Rights' movements because they actually have motivation and determination towards their goals and are real activists.


Pretty sure thats your opinion. It's also called communism.

Yeah its socialism. The main thing I like about socialism is that it brings the idea of simplicity in life. You do not need every item known to this world in order to be happy. In fact, having less and living 'simple' can make a human being much more happier compared to a complex lifestyle in which you have a shit load of things that you rarely use or need. The only thing about socialism I don't really know much about is entrepreneurship.

[Rainbow Dash]

Pretty sure thats your opinion.

Let me break this down for you since you obviously do not understand what an opinion is. If a car which is only used approximately 20% of their lifetime (you know, like most cars) and spend 80% of their lifetime sitting in a parking lot or driveway were instead put into a system where they're used by other people when they would otherwise be unused, and brought to a point where they're in use as close to 100% of the time as possible, we would be able to fulfill the current need they serve, with less cars.



It's also called communism.

No it's not, It's called economizing.


Indeed, I did not think about that. So its pretty much like trying to earn a certification for a job or to achieve a goal. You read and learn about what is going on in your field of study, but once you get physical experience in doing so, you will be able to master what you know and use it to your advantage. Sure, having people that know how the system works is nice, but they will be rendered 'stupid' until they learn how to physically execute. Its sad that the interent contained activism in a virtual world. If you want to put togeather a 'real' activism group, get rid of online interaction and physically speak on what ideas you support.

Tell you what, if you can create a group locally and set up meeting times to meet physically (sort of like a club) with people in real life, I guarantee you will get a lot further in what you are trying to achieve. I have respect for gays who form 'Gay Rights' movements because they actually have motivation and determination towards their goals and are real activists.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

Also it's not socialism either. It's a behavior socialism would probably incorporate, but that doesn't make it socialist.

[Higuy]

Let me break this down for you since you obviously do not understand what an opinion is. If a car which is only used approximately 20% of their lifetime (you know, like most cars) and spend 80% of their lifetime sitting in a parking lot or driveway were instead put into a system where they're used by other people when they would otherwise be unused, and brought to a point where they're in use as close to 100% of the time as possible, we would be able to fulfill the current need they serve, with less cars.


Yes im pretty sure that is your opinion... You can call it facts but I know alot of people that would not want to share a car with all of their neighbors.

[PopeAK49]

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/



I'll look at later, looks interesting.

[Rainbow Dash]

Yes im pretty sure that is your opinion...

:confused2:

You may as well start arguing that 2+2 does not equal four, and that me saying it equals four is my opinion.

I obviously need to put this on an even smaller scale so that you can understand it.

You have four families who need a car at 4 different time periods during the day. Since none of them need the use of a car at the same time, one car could be produced and meet all their needs. If we produce more cars we are wasting resources, since they only need one. It does not come down to OPINION that they only need one car, it is a FACT, that they only need one car.


I'll look at later, looks interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w&feature=player_embedded

[Cortexian]

You may as well start arguing that 2+2 does not equal four, and that me saying it equals four is my opinion.
Lets not bring math into the thread when talking about opinions. 2+2 may very well NOT equal 4. Depending on a TON of things.

[PopeAK49]

"Equations are more important to me, because politics is for the present, but an equation is something for eternity."

-Einstein