Quebec Tuition protests

[Rainbow Dash]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/03/22/montreal-student-protests.html

one of the comments


Sure, let every Québec student and his shadow go to CGEP and university.
No more carpenters, no more plumbers.
Al either BEd, BSc.
We won't go into the fact that some will be in school till age 35 or after and become unemployable because of either over education or incompetence.



become unemployable because of either over education or incompetence.



over education


as if you can be too smart lmao

[TVTyrant]

Average annual tuition: 6,600

Fuck off Canada. Quit your bitching you have it much better than we do.

[=sw=warlord]

Meanwhile in the UK tuition has just been tripled.

[Kornman00]

1.00 GBP = 1.58244 USD

Welp, attend university in the US then, Mr. "Oh look at me and my GBP, I can buy so much teeeeeeeeeeeeeea".

[Higuy]

Lol 6,600. Some of the best schools here in the states can cost up to 40k or more. Not that any one actually pays that due to finical aid and scholarships though, but still, quite yer whining.

[Rainbow Dash]

Charging for education at all is disgusting.

Doesn't matter what country it is :3

[paladin]

Charging for education at all is disgusting.

Doesn't matter what country it is :3
no but charging for higher education is perfectly acceptable

[Rainbow Dash]

no but charging for higher education is perfectly acceptable

Something being acceptable does not neccesarily exempt it from being disgusting. Sorry!

[TVTyrant]

Charging for education at all is disgusting.

Doesn't matter what country it is :3
Whats your plan for your government to pay for it then?

[DarkHalo003]

Damn, $6,600 even without the state paying for it. Here in Georgia, the state pays for about 70% of college tuition if you maintain a 3.0 at least in college. Even then, we're looking at $5,000+ worth of expenses that still need to be payed, not to mention everything else. If you lose the scholarship (meaning your GPA falls below 3.0 every other term), you're looking at $15,000+ in expenses which can overwhelm almost anyone nowadays (considering the state of Georgia isn't as potent on Student Loans). So yeah, shut the fuck up you whiney Quebecian pricks.

[TVTyrant]

Damn, $6,600 even without the state paying for it. Here in Georgia, the state pays for about 70% of college tuition if you maintain a 3.0 at least in college. Even then, we're looking at $5,000+ worth of expenses that still need to be payed, not to mention everything else. If you lose the scholarship (meaning your GPA falls below 3.0 every other term), you're looking at $15,000+ in expenses which can overwhelm almost anyone nowadays (considering the state of Georgia isn't as potent on Student Loans). So yeah, shut the fuck up you whiney Quebecian pricks.
.

[Warsaw]

Quebecois.*

[TVTyrant]

Quebecois.*
Niggers

[n00b1n8R]

Why would a government want people to pay for their own tuition in this day an age :lol:

[Phopojijo]

Whats your plan for your government to pay for it then?You know the reason why tuition is ~5-6k/yr is because the Government pays for 3/4 of it, right? Tuition is not 5-6k if you go to a Canadian university but are not a Canadian citizen. More like 20-25k.

The Government makes education more (albeit not wholly) accessible -- and thus has more income to tax/less people in social programs to support in the long run.

Rather than the American way of pretending to be individualistic -- and in the process spending typically far more for far less efficient social programs...

----

In a side note -- I'm going to pay off my student debt by next month. Almost exactly 2 years after I received my 2nd degree : D ((Well, I finished it April '10... it was mailed June '10... but you know what I mean))

[TVTyrant]

You know the reason why tuition is ~5-6k/yr is because the Government pays for 3/4 of it, right? Tuition is not 5-6k if you go to a Canadian university but are not a Canadian citizen. More like 20-25k.

The Government makes education more (albeit not wholly) accessible -- and thus has more income to tax/less people in social programs to support in the long run.

Rather than the American way of pretending to be individualistic -- and in the process spending typically far more for far less efficient social programs...

----

In a side note -- I'm going to pay off my student debt by next month. Almost exactly 2 years after I received my 2nd degree : D ((Well, I finished it April '10... it was mailed June '10... but you know what I mean))
Yes, I was aware of that lol. I was poking fun at Sel.

The US was once like that, but that was a long time ago. My Dad worked in a lumber for for two weeks in 1979 and payed for a term of college in that time. Thats just ridiculous. I work a whole summer and I couldnt even pay for one term of true University. That's why Junior College is a must for most young Americans.

I wish our system was more like yours, because thats far more sensible.

[n00b1n8R]

I don't pay anything up front, the government heavily subsidises my education and the actual fee I need to pay can be deferred until I've graduated (technically untill I'm earing ~40K/year). More people with better education means more high paying jobs which builds the economy. It's a pretty damn secure investment on the governments part and works out great for me.

[Rainbow Dash]

I wish our system was more like yours, because thats far more sensible.

shut up free market american, taxes are socialism

No but really, even with the significantly better system we have, the fact that we still have students coming out with some pretty crushing debt is unacceptable. Obviously it's nowhere near as bad as it's American counterpart, but this whole vibe I'm seeing from people here where just say something about how it's better than they have therefore these protests are silly since things aren't as bad as where they live,is kinda silly.

Admittedly I had intended to discuss the incredibly stupid comment from the article that I quoted, since it amazed me so much that we could have such a ridiculous mindset in our society.

[TVTyrant]

shut up free market american, taxes are socialism
Sel

I'm going to let you in on a little secret

The truth is

I'm a socialist

:ohdear:

Just because I don't agree with everything YOU say or the way you go on about it doesn't mean I disagree with the idea. I am, however, a firm moderate who tries to find a common ground with just about everything.

[TVTyrant]

I don't pay anything up front, the government heavily subsidises my education and the actual fee I need to pay can be deferred until I've graduated (technically untill I'm earing ~40K/year). More people with better education means more high paying jobs which builds the economy. It's a pretty damn secure investment on the governments part and works out great for me.
Too bad my government hates its people and hates having a successful middle class :iamafag:

[Rainbow Dash]

Sel

I'm going to let you in on a little secret

The truth is

I'm a socialist

:ohdear:

Just because I don't agree with everything YOU say or the way you go on about it doesn't mean I disagree with the idea. I am, however, a firm moderate who tries to find a common ground with just about everything.

I'll let you in on a secret, that was a joke :3

[TVTyrant]

I'll let you in on a secret, that was a joke :3
I was aware, I was trying to be funny too lol.

Damn you internet!

[DarkHalo003]

Too bad my government hates its people and hates having a successful middle class :iamafag:
It's more like our government is made of dumbfucks, but your point works too. WHO THE FUCK RUNS THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AROUND HERE? The idiot who seriously thought that making a Math and Science core curriculum at the college level needs to be naturally selected out of the damn gene pool because I swear this stupidity can't go on much longer.

[neuro]

yeah!!

we need to put religious education abck into the college level!!

[DarkHalo003]

yeah!!

we need to put religious education abck into the college level!!
You're not American, so I assume you're thinking I am opposing math and science by stating they should not be mandatory core curriculum. The Core Curriculum in the United States is a set of classes one is forced to take upon entering college regardless of whether or not the methods/skills/knowledge attained in that class will be utilized or intended for use in life at all. I've grown up studying this same shit for 12 years (US education for ya) and now they feed it back to you with shittier conditions and pointless politics. The more you know.

And everyone should be required to take a class that discusses philosophy and religion. Too many people are running around without a damn clue of what to think besides what their ignorance or their church shows them. Instead of taking Algebra or an extraneous Calculus course when one is nothing near a Math/Science major, make them take philosophy so the can actually think for themselves outside societal pressures. This concept applies to everyone, not just Bible humpers.

[Bodzilla]

wait, when you graduate high school you STILL have to maths and science at college?
lmfao.

but a quick question... what exactly is the point of a college anyway.........

[Cortexian]

It's the same in Canada, you need to take Maths and Sciences regardless of the course you've taken.

I have a friend doing Computer Science and he's being forced to also do a University level bio course.

[Rainbow Dash]

wait, when you graduate high school you STILL have to maths and science at college?
lmfao.

but a quick question... what exactly is the point of a college anyway.........

Yup, another sign of how big a joke our school system is lol.

[Warsaw]

They also force you into several English classes that all teach you the same thing...from a lower bar than it was taught in high school.

[Bodzilla]

no ones answered my question.

what the fuck is the point of a college?????
other then say education for a trade or for a job you've got........ like you's dont go to colleges like you go to school do you????

[Warsaw]

Technically speaking, college is supposed to be a training ground and only those who don't already have the skills for the line of work they want to do should be going. In practise, you have to go because employers want that slip of paper signifying that you are capable of doing X amount of work. So really, college is just an extension of regular schooling for a lot of us, the difference being we can choose our hours and we can [mostly] choose our courses.

The current mode of operation is obsolete. What we should have are testing centers for courses and anybody can take the test. If you pass, you get credit. It would be college agnostic; get all of the required credits for a nationally-uniform degree standard and you can get that certification. I shouldn't be forced to sit through another class of shit I already know just to get that credit for a degree.

[Cortexian]

English classes become completely irrelevant after grade 10 TBH, possibly even before. They try and trick you into thinking you're learning some ground-breaking and improved subject matter in all the follow-up courses by adding in "more advanced" required literature into the courses, yet you're studying the exact same habits and ideas over and over. The only decent part of English is that it at least teaches you to write essays in appropriate formatting. Once you've learned that in grades 7-10 you honestly don't need any more of it. The problem is that we aren't being instructed about "English" in the sense that you would learn it for something like getting your Major in English/Languages.

It is literally THE most useless class. Well, next to CALM (Career and Life Management) or whatever the equivalent is in your part of the world.

[Bodzilla]

sounds like a pointless fucking waste of time and money.

[Rainbow Dash]

no ones answered my question.

what the fuck is the point of a college?????


You get a piece of paper saying you can do something.


sounds like a pointless fucking waste of time and money.

It is, we need some pretty serious educational reform.

[DarkHalo003]

College is useful for improving social behaviors (when done right, not like Frat Party bullshit), the resources they have available (I sure as hell don't have an IMax Printer or money to visit multiple museums), and for learning to live on ones own. There is also the fact that it does teach/reinforce many important principles for whatever your aspiring and you do obtain greater critique in a more professional environment. Other than all of that, no, college is really beside the point.

[Bodzilla]

sorry i guess i forgot americans need another school not called school because they take an additional 4 years to mature.
sorry!

University's are for pieces of paper, colleges should only be paid for by employers who wish to multi-skill their current employees or for trades to fill in the blanks that are missed out in their on-job training due to their company filling certain roles of an overall trade.

all this talk of learning to live on your own, social behaviour is just crack pot shit to bleed you of more money.
if you arn't completely able to provide for yourself by the age of 16, theres something wrong with you.

[Warsaw]

In the USA, there isn't really a distinction between university and college. I guess over here you could say that all universities are colleges but not all colleges are universities.

And yes, the whole process is largely a waste of time and money.

[Tnnaas]

@Bodzilla

Human males take another four years to mature. No other lad from any other country wouldn't be 100% on the level at age 18.

Also, no one can support themselves at 16 when the economy is in the shitter and our education system does nothing to help anyone prepare for the real world.

[DarkHalo003]

sorry i guess i forgot americans need another school not called school because they take an additional 4 years to mature.
sorry!

University's are for pieces of paper, colleges should only be paid for by employers who wish to multi-skill their current employees or for trades to fill in the blanks that are missed out in their on-job training due to their company filling certain roles of an overall trade.

all this talk of learning to live on your own, social behaviour is just crack pot shit to bleed you of more money.
if you arn't completely able to provide for yourself by the age of 16, theres something wrong with you.
Welcome to America. May I take your Northface jacket?

[Bodzilla]

@Bodzilla

Human males take another four years to mature. No other lad from any other country wouldn't be 100% on the level at age 18.

Also, no one can support themselves at 16 when the economy is in the shitter and our education system does nothing to help anyone prepare for the real world.
seems like some more socialistic ideals would be really beneficial for your inhibited development.

[DarkHalo003]

seems like some more socialistic ideals would be really beneficial for your inhibited development.
Were you ready at 16 to live the rest of your life with food and necessities outside the support of your guardians?

[Tnnaas]

seems like some more socialistic ideals would be really beneficial for your inhibited development.
Actually, I just need to get the fuck out. I'm surrounded by backwards people.

[Bodzilla]

Were you ready at 16 to live the rest of your life with food and necessities outside the support of your guardians?
Yes of course

[DarkHalo003]

Yes of course
Ah just curious.

[TVTyrant]

I'm going to college so I can force 16 year olds to learn about WWI and coach those same kids the proper way to do a zone step and form tackling
:downs:

[Bodzilla]

just as a side question, what is the average age that you guys start drinking?
and no i dont mean drink every day, or have a sip of dads whisky.
i mean go to a party and have a drink?

13 is like the standard and alot of people actually start a bit younger then that where i'm from ;s;s;s

[TVTyrant]

just as a side question, what is the average age that you guys start drinking?
and no i dont mean drink every day, or have a sip of dads whisky.
i mean go to a party and have a drink?

13 is like the standard and alot of people actually start a bit younger then that where i'm from ;s;s;s
15ish.

[DarkHalo003]

just as a side question, what is the average age that you guys start drinking?
and no i dont mean drink every day, or have a sip of dads whisky.
i mean go to a party and have a drink?

13 is like the standard and alot of people actually start a bit younger then that where i'm from ;s;s;s
Legally it's 21. Most try to start around 15/16. In college, where everyone is at least 18, it's widespread stupidity; American Vodka all around! Dumbasses.

[=sw=warlord]

American Vodka all around! Dumbasses.
Indeed.
Russian Vodka is where it's at.

[Tnnaas]

Americans shouldn't drink Vodka. They have their horrifying Whiskey for that.

Also, am I the only one who hasn't had an illegal substance in my body before the age of 21?

[=sw=warlord]

Depends when you say illegal.
There was a time where various drugs were legal and now aren't.

[Tnnaas]

Depends when you say illegal.
There was a time where various drugs were legal and now aren't.
Mostly alcoholic subsances and drugs bought from a man with an overcoat in an alleyway.

[TVTyrant]

Americans shouldn't drink Vodka. They have their horrifying Whiskey for that.

Also, am I the only one who hasn't had an illegal substance in my body before the age of 21?
Whiskey is awesome, and when you talk bad about it you are talking bad about my ancestors, which I shall not stand for!

[Tnnaas]

Whiskey is awesome, and when you talk bad about it you are talking bad about my ancestors, which I shall not stand for!
Feel free to sit down.

[=sw=warlord]

Whiskey is awesome, and when you talk bad about it you are talking bad about my ancestors, which I shall not stand for!
Wait.
The Irish can actually stand?

[TVTyrant]

Wait.
The Irish can actually stand?
Yep. How do you think we chased your people off of our crappy little island :-3

[DarkHalo003]

Yep. How do you think we chased your people off of our crappy little island :-3
I just thought all of the pansy British soldiers drank themselves to death.

[TVTyrant]

I just thought all of the pansy British soldiers drank themselves to death.
Nope. We bought guns from the Americans and chased them off. Also, they commited atrocities so awful the international community pressured them to let the Irish alone. Basically it was good timing on the Irish's part because after WW1 nobody wanted to read about fighting or death anymore.

[Rainbow Dash]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/04/20/students-palais-de-congres.html

hopefully this spreads!

[Higuy]

Thats a riot. Not a protest.

Have any of those kids ever heard of a non-violent protest?

[neuro]

because that's accomplished SO much lately.
it's obvious 'peaceful' protests don't work for shit anymore.

[TVTyrant]

because that's accomplished SO much lately.
it's obvious 'peaceful' protests don't work for shit anymore.
This is so damn true.

If we'd gotten the open carry people to go to Occupy protests it never would have stopped. Think about it.

[Higuy]

because that's accomplished SO much lately.
it's obvious 'peaceful' protests don't work for shit anymore.

You could say the same exact thing when Blacks wanted equal rights (there was plenty of police brutality (tear gas did exist back then, so did hoses, so did guns) and discrimination), yet MLK was still able to keep a non-violent protest non violent and it eventually led to winning equal rights in the states. (whether or not a majority of southern people would agree to this is another thing though). If your persistent and keep working at anything you will eventually achieve it.

[=sw=warlord]

Unless you die before hand.
At which point you'll be dead.

[FreedomFighter7]

College is a waste? What are you going to do instead? Work at Mcdonald's and play games the rest of your life? Don't listen to these guys tell you how to live your life. It would be pretty stupid to listen to some guy on the internet about life choices. Somehow I don't see how any of you can know stuff you would learn in college, without ever attending one (and graduating).

Peaceful protests have achieved more than violent ones. Violence only serves to divide your potential allies, and disrupts the government and peace. What has any kind of revolution achieved in the last century? Somalia fell apart and is still without government since its downfall. Its anarchy is what it is because rebel factions created a power vacuum, then splintered into their own self serving groups. Mohatmo Ghandi, Martin Luther King, these are examples of what can be achieved with peaceful protests.

[Rainbow Dash]

Have any of those kids ever heard of a non-violent protest?

Oh my, you mean that thing they've been doing the last month and some that has gone nowhere?

[Amit]

College is a waste? What are you going to do instead? Work at Mcdonald's and play games the rest of your life? Don't listen to these guys tell you how to live your life. It would be pretty stupid to listen to some guy on the internet about life choices. Somehow I don't see how any of you can know stuff you would learn in college, without ever attending one (and graduating).

The part they were referring to as a waste was in regards to redundant subjects, not education overall. Some people here have graduated from post-secondary education and many of us are still in the process of completing it. So we know what the situation is. I myself have experienced this bullshit system, so I have the understanding of what I'm saying when I say that a lot of it is ​a waste of money.

[Higuy]

Oh my, you mean that thing they've been doing the last month and some that has gone nowhere?
Yes, so, logically next would be violence! That totally wont make them look like whining cry-baby's :)

[Rainbow Dash]

Yes, so, logically next would be violence! That totally wont make them look like whining cry-baby's :)

~ApAtHy~

[FreedomFighter7]

Its only a waste of money if you tested too low to get into classes which contain material you don't know (ie haven't taken). If you did, then its your own fault. You can't blame the school, its their job to ensure you know what you're doing and make sure you know how to do it. I am going to school, and I know it isn't black and white like that. You don't just get dropped into classes because the school wants you to waste your time money and effort, its because you didn't score high enough to get into those classes.

I'm sensing some kind of hidden agenda, something against going to college here on Modacity. I just can't figure out why. It makes no sense not to go to college if you're capable, I don't understand why you guys are defending it.

[Amit]

Its only a waste of money if you tested too low to get into classes which contain material you don't know (ie haven't taken). If you did, then its your own fault. You can't blame the school, its their job to ensure you know what you're doing and make sure you know how to do it. I am going to school, and I know it isn't black and white like that. You don't just get dropped into classes because the school wants you to waste your time money and effort, its because you didn't score high enough to get into those classes.

Nobody here said anything about not being able to get into classes...


I'm sensing some kind of hidden agenda, something against going to college here on Modacity. I just can't figure out why. It makes no sense not to go to college if you're capable, I don't understand why you guys are defending it.

This guy and his conspiracies.

[Timo]

Is that graph at the bottom of that article showing the average cost per paper, or the total cost of a years worth? $2,500 per year is not that excessive, nor prohibitive (unless student loans don't exist in Quebec).

[Rainbow Dash]

Is that graph at the bottom of that article showing the average cost per paper, or the total cost of a years worth? $2,500 per year is not that excessive, nor prohibitive (unless student loans don't exist in Quebec).

The fact that at this point in time it's something that isn't freely provided for everyone is bad enough.

The, "oh, it's not that bad", argument is meaningless, how bad does it have to get before it's worth protesting? If our world population had as much backbone as these students we'd be way better off.

[Timo]

It's still heavily subsidized though, right? 90% of my tuition fees are paid for by the government. At $2500 a year (just over a third of what I pay per year) i'm sure a huge portion of their fees are paid for by the government too. In an ideal world education would be free, but you'd still end up paying for it indirectly through taxes.

edit: However my tuition fees go onto an interest free student loan that I pay off once I start earning over a certain wage (I essentially pay a student loan tax that gets deducted from my salary). If students are required to foot that bill at the start of each year with no assistance from the government in that regard I can understand why they're up in arms.

[Rainbow Dash]

but you'd still end up paying for it indirectly through taxes.

If we allow Capitalism to continue destroying the world and maintain the hideously corrupt monetary system, sure.

Also sure, these guys, and you, have a much better deal than most of the world, but the fact that it's not better than it is, and is attempting to be degenerated by rich old men is more than enough reason to get angry.

[Timo]

What's your proposed alternative to drive/fund universities forward in education and research and development?

[FreedomFighter7]

Nobody here said anything about not being able to get into classes...



This guy and his conspiracies.



Sorry if that sounded patronizing, I was in a hurry to get something done. Yes that may be considered a conspiracy, maybe I just don't understand why you guys think college is such a bad thing. Maybe this wasn't clear, but my point is, you have to test high enough (SAT, ACT) to get into those classes you haven't taken in high school. Those classes would have the material you don't already know entirely, at least. If you didn't score in the right range, you'll be forced to take a class with that material of which you thought you already knew.

Responding to the above post: socialism, probably. Socialism isn't necessarily a bad thing, as most things are not black and white.

[Rainbow Dash]

What's your proposed alternative to drive/fund universities forward in education and research and development?

The resources they require to function as effectively as possible efficiently distributed to them based on their need of them. No more basing their ability to function on irrelevant monetary numbers.

[Timo]

So all staff's income is removed, and replaced with a supply of food, power and other necessities? Are you suggesting that the current economy be based on bartering/exchanging goods and services, instead of money?

[Rainbow Dash]

So all staff's income is removed, and replaced with a supply of food, power and other necessities? Are you suggesting that the current economy be based on bartering/exchanging goods and services, instead of money?

No, I'm suggesting we evolve into an economic system which is designed for our effectively post-scarcity society, instead of clinging to one that's several centuries old and keeps what would otherwise be freely available goods artificially scarce in the name of profit.

(watch this when you've got 3 hours lying around (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w))

[Timo]

Well it's in my watch later list on youtube, but I won't have that amount of spare time for a while. I'll definitely give it a watch though even though it's Zeitgeist, the comments i've seen about it elsewhere make it seem like it won't be screaming CONSPIRACY every ten seconds.

[FreedomFighter7]

What problems does this address, rainbow dash?

[Rainbow Dash]

Watch it and find out, like, I don't mean that as a snarky response, it's just that were I to go into much detail, I'd spend a while writing this post.

Basically, it suggests a science based economic and societal model, which would address a large portion of the societal neuroses we face, and a lot of other issues.

[neuro]

it really is worth watching tbh.

[FreedomFighter7]

I've seen about half of it before, I still remember some of it. Its too damn scary for me to deal with, plus I don't believe shit I see on the internet. There's an old maxim, it goes like this: believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. I've researched the facts behind the video, and mainly used wikipedia. It seemed at the time the murder of that guy in argentina or whatever south american country it was, had nothing to do wit so called " economic hitmen". Answer me this, if these economic hitmen and the corporations (going on memory here) are so bad, why haven't they killed the makers of the video, or shut down the website? Seems like a complete plot hole to me. There is a book written by the guy they interviewed, which he wrote about economic hitmen. I looked into the details of the economics involved, its not entirely black and white. Some of the things that big bank did have both advantages and disadvantages, the videos is spinning the issue one way. I don't know where I found all this, but I know its on wikipedia. Like I said, going on memory here.

I'm not going to spend another 24 hours looking through articles, do your own research.

[DarkHalo003]

The world is in a state of corporatism. It's not as blatantly obvious as it was before, but it's definitely still there. Corporations are evil. If you couldn't tell before now, then here's a small example: all of the fucks who create "sugar-free" or "zero calorie" or "diet" drinks are using a chemical called aspartame. Now, before you say something like "OMG DID YOU JUST GO ON WIKI OR WATCH A VIDEO OR BELIEVE YOUR TEACHER? LOLOL" no, I did not. I used deduction. Aspartame is an endocrine disruptor. It was the slow-down of metabolic functions and hormones. Now the even more sickly part: the corporations recognize this and utilize it against the crowd of "diet drinkers." Those people who look obese or are drinking "diet" drinks to lose weight? Aspartame is the virtual cause of that. Though it does not cause immediate results, as in you can drink diet drinks occasionally and still retain a healthy figure, aspartame's effects kick in 10-20 years of consistent drinking. So while corporations know this, they target people drinking "diet" or "zero" drinks for the sake that they believe drinking the drinks is better for them. In the end it makes their figure/physical shape worsen and causes these consumers to think they need more of this "diet" drink if they are going to enjoy soda (which is horrid for you to begin with, despite being very delicious). It's a loop; people think they need diet drinks for health benefits, corporations exploit this by using a cheap chemical and calling the result "diet," the consumers drink this crap thinking it helps when it makes it worse thus causing them to think they're more worse than before, the consumers drink more of this crap to compensate because they don't know better, and the corporations exploit this weakness to hell for their own gain.

That was just a modern, small example of the evils surrounding corporatism.

[Rainbow Dash]

I've seen about half of it before, I still remember some of it. Its too damn scary for me to deal with, plus I don't believe shit I see on the internet. There's an old maxim, it goes like this: believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. I've researched the facts behind the video, and mainly used wikipedia. It seemed at the time the murder of that guy in argentina or whatever south american country it was, had nothing to do wit so called " economic hitmen". Answer me this, if these economic hitmen and the corporations (going on memory here) are so bad, why haven't they killed the makers of the video, or shut down the website? Seems like a complete plot hole to me. There is a book written by the guy they interviewed, which he wrote about economic hitmen. I looked into the details of the economics involved, its not entirely black and white. Some of the things that big bank did have both advantages and disadvantages, the videos is spinning the issue one way. I don't know where I found all this, but I know its on wikipedia. Like I said, going on memory here.

I'm not going to spend another 24 hours looking through articles, do your own research.

You should never believe anything just because it's been told to you, but for starts, you're thinking of Addendum, not this one. As for the issues John Perkins raises, whether he's lying or not, the issues he describes have happened before. (chile, iran, nicaragua, and more recently iraq).

As for why these people haven't been killed, answer me this, what looks more suspicious? Having someone outing you, and then ignoring him entirely (For instance, what we see with Ron Paul in the USA), or assassinating them? My point is that when you start killing people off you're more likely to raise some sort of general alarm in the population, which at the moment is quite content to drown in distractions from all the meaningful shit going on.

What you should always do whenever you're presented with information is pretend there is no author listed, and then draw your own conclusions from your own research.

[Rainbow Dash]

Stuff

That's not really a result of corporatism, that's a result of Capitalism (which in turn can result in corporatism, which contributes to those issues, but doesn't cause it) in general. In Capitalism you have to create problems to create economic growth, jobs, etc. For instance, think of all the jobs that would be lost if we jumped off of our oil dependancy? Or cured cancer? Or solved Terrorism? Most of the oil related jobs would no longer exist, nor would the huge profits it creates. If we cure cancer than all the money made off of cancer "treatment" would stop flowing in too, and finally if terrorism was finally ended, the security sector would probably collapse. One of the many glaring flaws with Capitalism is that it creates an incentive to cause problems, so that people can then charge money to pretend to solve them.

[Bodzilla]

While i agree on you about Oil, your dead wrong about cancer.

theres millions poured into researching it, so that if they find a cure they can get a profit from it.
saying their not doing it because the treatment they already have gets them profits is just silly.

[DarkHalo003]

That's not really a result of corporatism, that's a result of Capitalism (which in turn can result in corporatism, which contributes to those issues, but doesn't cause it) in general. In Capitalism you have to create problems to create economic growth, jobs, etc. For instance, think of all the jobs that would be lost if we jumped off of our oil dependancy? Or cured cancer? Or solved Terrorism? Most of the oil related jobs would no longer exist, nor would the huge profits it creates. If we cure cancer than all the money made off of cancer "treatment" would stop flowing in too, and finally if terrorism was finally ended, the security sector would probably collapse. One of the many glaring flaws with Capitalism is that it creates an incentive to cause problems, so that people can then charge money to pretend to solve them.
This is what capitalism is right now. And my example is corporatism because it has become a scenario where the corporations are in control of what's in the best interest of the people. Medicines have been discovered that heal or prevent so many diseases/ailments, but many corporations/distributors do not use them because they provide less profit or gain.

And by removing capitalism you also destroy more jobs. Either way, you're looking at most of the planet being unemployed for a while without the Market.

Oh and:
Did you just blame terrorism on Capitalism? Did you just say we could stop terrorism by abandoning Capitalism? Modern terrorism that we face today isn't just an economic struggle, there are far more problems than go into it. Whether or not capitalism persists is beside the point in this case. We're dealing with people delusional by religious concepts and want power, not cooperation in your sense, Sel.

[Rainbow Dash]

While i agree on you about Oil, your dead wrong about cancer.

theres millions poured into researching it, so that if they find a cure they can get a profit from it.
saying their not doing it because the treatment they already have gets them profits is just silly.

YEiEV1M8J8o

It is a much bigger issue in the USA, since they have privatized medicine, and make a lot of money just bouncing cancer patients around, but it's still an issue worldwide.


This is what capitalism is right now. And my example is corporatism because it has become a scenario where the corporations are in control of what's in the best interest of the people. Medicines have been discovered that heal or prevent so many diseases/ailments, but many corporations/distributors do not use them because they provide less profit or gain.

It doesn't matter what child ism of Capitalism it is, the root cause of them is still Capitalism.



And by removing capitalism you also destroy more jobs. Either way, you're looking at most of the planet being unemployed for a while without the Market.

So?

Seriously how is that a bad thing? If we got rid of all the totally unneccesary, socially pointless, and technically unneccesary jobs we'd have mass unemployment anyway. We can provide for everyone and much more now, without forcing people into dumb meaningless jobs, which mostly serve as a means to promote apathy now anyway.



Oh and:
Did you just blame terrorism on Capitalism? Did you just say we could stop terrorism by abandoning Capitalism?

No, I didn't. I said that terrorism is good for the Capitalist economy. Whether or not it causes terrorism, which I could go into a much lenghthier debate on, since most of the things that lead to terrorist behavior are a direct result of Capitalism anyway (US Imperialism and war profiteering anyone?).

Think about it. Look at how incredibly profitable the securities industry is now, and the money that is being made by the war industry. When you create, and/or maintain problems you can make a profit off of those.

[DarkHalo003]

Seriously how is that a bad thing? If we got rid of all the totally unneccesary, socially pointless, and technically unneccesary jobs we'd have mass unemployment anyway. We can provide for everyone and much more now, without forcing people into dumb meaningless jobs, which mostly serve as a means to promote apathy now anyway.



No, I didn't. I said that terrorism is good for the Capitalist economy. Whether or not it causes terrorism, which I could go into a much lenghthier debate on, since most of the things that lead to terrorist behavior are a direct result of Capitalism anyway (US Imperialism and war profiteering anyone?).

Think about it. Look at how incredibly profitable the securities industry is now, and the money that is being made by the war industry. When you create, and/or maintain problems you can make a profit off of those.
I feel like I don't grasp what your first paragraph in the quotation is stating. As for the terrorism, I could list a number of arguments against your theory, but because I realized the argument would be a philosophical debate on what is just, not to mention all of the other factors and issues that go into this, I'm deciding that arguing with you is pointless. In fact, arguing with someone who has a similar philosophy on how the world sucks is also pointless. Do see where I'm going though? This entire debate is pointless.

What political/economic philosophy are you citing here Sel?

[neuro]

'common sense'

[DarkHalo003]

'common sense'
If it was so common, then why do we have capitalism? :downs:

[Rainbow Dash]

I feel like I don't grasp what your first paragraph in the quotation is stating.

There's this fictional belief that everyone needs to get a job, so that they can make money, so they can support themselves, this was fine back 100 some years ago when the near full population was required for maintaining society, but now, how many people really need jobs? If all the people working shitty jobs at subway, winners, mcdonalds, and wal-mart and so on, all stopped working, would society come grinding to a halt? No, and our ability to support those lives would be entirely unchanged too, since we have the resources to meet everyone's needs, and the ability to replace pretty much all manufacturing jobs with automation technology. Not to mention the jobs that would serve zero purpose in a sane economy, cashiers, accountants, bankers, etc. The fact of the matter is that we could have 3% employment, and spread that across the seven billion people on the planet, while letting people focus on what really matters. Creativity, science, and their health, which our current society tries to destroy.



As for the terrorism, I could list a number of arguments against your theory

Theory...?

It's not a theory that the recent terrorism fear mongering over the last decade and some has led to huge profits for the securities and war industries. Whether or not they caused it, which is a whole other discussion (because they quite possibly could have) they now have no incentive to stop it because it's so damn lucrative.


If it was so common, then why do we have capitalism? http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/extra/downs.gif

Because people are so indoctrinated into the capitalist system that they begin to accept it's ludicrous rules as reality, since that's all they've known since birth. Psycology 101.

[=sw=warlord]

If it was so common, then why do we have capitalism? :downs:
The mad house is usually run and paid for by the nutters who are supposed to be held there.

[DarkHalo003]

There's this fictional belief that everyone needs to get a job, so that they can make money, so they can support themselves, this was fine back 100 some years ago when the near full population was required for maintaining society, but now, how many people really need jobs? If all the people working shitty jobs at subway, winners, mcdonalds, and wal-mart and so on, all stopped working, would society come grinding to a halt? No, and our ability to support those lives would be entirely unchanged too, since we have the resources to meet everyone's needs, and the ability to replace pretty much all manufacturing jobs with automation technology. Not to mention the jobs that would serve zero purpose in a sane economy, cashiers, accountants, bankers, etc. The fact of the matter is that we could have 3% employment, and spread that across the seven billion people on the planet, while letting people focus on what really matters. Creativity, science, and their health, which our current society tries to destroy.

It's not a theory that the recent terrorism fear mongering over the last decade and some has led to huge profits for the securities and war industries. Whether or not they caused it, which is a whole other discussion (because they quite possibly could have) they now have no incentive to stop it because it's so damn lucrative.


Because people are so indoctrinated into the capitalist system that they begin to accept it's ludicrous rules as reality, since that's all they've known since birth. Psycology 101.

A: I understand what you mean now. It sounds like what Marx is saying about the step after capitalism, that it has outlived its usefulness or outstayed its welcome. It sounds like you're condemning the entire concept of money and reward. Of course, it also sounds like you may be implying the beneficial nature of symbolism and sentiment over materialism and consumerism. Of course, your topic is still very vague so elaboration isn't easy. What I want to know is how society would be organized after the disestablishment of capitalism. Then this debate can continue.

B: When I refer to "theory" I am referring to the theory that big business caused terrorism. You are correct that they greatly benefit from it though.

C: That statement was my being snarky and wasn't actually serious in any way. But Warlord is right, just look at Congress!

[TVTyrant]

The mad house is usually run and paid for by the nutters who are supposed to be held there.
Actually its usually paid for by the surrounding tax payers because its doing them a service.

Or at least thats how it worked until Reagan

[Rainbow Dash]

What I want to know is how society would be organized after the disestablishment of capitalism. Then this debate can continue.

Watch the movie I linked, it explains the system I support pretty well.



B: When I refer to "theory" I am referring to the theory that big business caused terrorism. You are correct that they greatly benefit from it though.

I don't pick a side in that debate usually, because neither I, nor most of the world population actually know what happened on 9/11, I just like to point out that the incentive for it to be an inside job, and all the strange things that occurred to allow 9/11 to happen at all. Though it's not really that big an issue anyway, whether the Ron Paul theory of US imperialism enraging Osama's group, or whether it was a manufactured event, the cause of both possibilities is still Capitalism.

[TVTyrant]

Totes, just like the Polish revolts of the 1980s and the Hungarians in the 50s were because of communism

Its all shit, sorry

[FreedomFighter7]

Internet is srs bznz.

[Rainbow Dash]

Totes, just like the Polish revolts of the 1980s and the Hungarians in the 50s were because of communism

Its all shit, sorry

There has never been a truly communist society. The ones you're referring to were much closer to state capitalism (china does this too), which masqueraded as communism.

[Bobblehob]

There has never been a truly communist society.

Because it has not, nor will it ever work

[FreedomFighter7]

I would like to point out a problem with your argument Rainbow Dash. If someone is bad, or doesn't want to work to help others, what do you do? Take away their needs? I see similarities to the USSR. What's to motivate anyone to invent anything new? It because of the monetary system that people have incentive to do anything. Any and every system has its issues, to say your communism is better is ludicrous.

Who is going to decide who gets what? I see that as vulnerable to corruption. In fact, history has proven it is, the soviet union did just that and its called genocide. It was mass starvation because the soviets took the food from the people.

Who is going to decide who is in power? It can't be democratic because you seem to be against that.

Quit beating around the bush and tell us, are you for communism or something else?

[Rainbow Dash]

Because it has not, nor will it ever work

Don't post dumbfuckery like this that contributes shit all to the discussion.

Thanks.


I would like to point out a problem with your argument Rainbow Dash. If someone is bad, or doesn't want to work to help others, what do you do?

If you didn't have to work a shitty job ever again, and would have all your needs met without the coercion to "work for a living", what would you do all day? Would you just sit around and be lazy, and never ever do anything? There's this silly idea that without the carrot on the sick, people will never contribute, ever. Unfortunately a lot of people are trained into this behavior, by the current system, and it would take a generation or two to filter that out. For the most part however, the incentive to create, is the creating. This is why all the artists here, and everywhere else make things, without a monetary incentive. Creating is fun, mastering a skill is fun, and so on.



Take away their needs? I see similarities to the USSR.

Only the ones you're putting in front of yourself. I never said this, and I never implied it, you're just projecting here.



What's to motivate anyone to invent anything new? It because of the monetary system that people have incentive to do anything.


Wrong.

See this thread (http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?24353-capitalism-and-monetary-incentives-are-detrimental-to-the-arts).

Money has shown time and time again to be detrimental to creativity, sciences, etc, and only beneficial to meaningless jobs that don't require any thought whatsoever (see subway, cashier, etc), almost all of which are either totally unnecessary now, and could be removed or replaced with automation, or socially pointless and should never have existed in the first place.



Who is going to decide who gets what? I see that as vulnerable to corruption.


I suggest you research The Venus Project's Resource based economy further.

Start here (http://4mkRFCtl2MI).



Who is going to decide who is in power? It can't be democratic because you seem to be against that.

No one is going to be in power.



Quit beating around the bush and tell us, are you for communism or something else?

http://www.modacity.net/forums/showthread.php?24418-Quebec-Tuition-protests&p=620083&viewfull=1#post620083

I've already said dozens of times what I advocate.

[DarkHalo003]

Are you Marxist Sel? It sounds a lot like what Marx is saying, especially in Capital.

My only problem with your statement about money is in regards to art. Historically, art has been commissioned. Most of the many great masterpieces we have today were done by commisions.

[Rainbow Dash]

Are you Marxist Sel? It sounds a lot like what Marx is saying, especially in Capital.


There are obviously parallels between the systems, and they share several ideals.

Anyway.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/04/25/students-call-off-talks.html


Police declared the protest illegal just before 10:30 p.m. and are using concussion grenades and chemical irritants to disperse the demonstrators.

Amazing. Now spread already because I can't go out to Montreal guys!

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/topstories/2012/04/25/li-popo.jpg

[DarkHalo003]

Wat. And you Canadians say our American cops go overboard.

[Bobblehob]

Don't post dumbfuckery like this that contributes shit all to the discussion.

Thanks.



Oh really? Give me an example of a country where a communist system has sustained itself. Can't? Ill tell you why, because IT DOESN'T WORK. It is completely relevant to this discussion. If you can't deal with that fact just say so instead of just telling me to fuck off.

[DarkHalo003]

Bobble, the Communist system you're speaking of is not the same that he is speaking of. He is speaking of, correct me if I'm wrong, the Communist system that Karl Marx had envisioned. The ones we have seen so far have been dictatorships by the anyone but the proletariat.

[Bobblehob]

Bobble, the Communist system you're speaking of is not the same that he is speaking of. He is speaking of, correct me if I'm wrong, the Communist system that Karl Marx had envisioned. The ones we have seen so far have been dictatorships by the anyone but the proletariat.

That is exactly the point :P Communist systems have devolved into dictatorships because they are inherently unstable, and completely unsustainable. A communist system as Marx envisioned is not possible.

[TVTyrant]

That is exactly the point :P Communist systems have devolved into dictatorships because they are inherently unstable, and completely unsustainable. A communist system as Marx envisioned is not possible.
Shh. You're sounding too rational for this thread

[Rainbow Dash]

Oh really? Give me an example of a country where a communist system has sustained itself. Can't? Ill tell you why, because IT DOESN'T WORK. It is completely relevant to this discussion. If you can't deal with that fact just say so instead of just telling me to fuck off.

lol

You're the kind of person who a century and some ago would have said flying was impossible and we couldn't do it, because no one had flown yet, and we all know how that turned out : )

I can't give you an example of that thing, that's never actually been seriously tried, working (and even if it was, let's give you that, just for the sake of argument, how does it not working previously alone exclude it from the possibility of ever working? Hint, it doesn't.), therefore it doesn't work. Do you also think that because we haven't got a man on Mars yet, therefore we can't get a man on Mars.

Do you see how ridiculous your logic is?

Get a real counter-argument instead of your meaningless declarative statements, or don't post here, it's not hard.


Bobble, the Communist system you're speaking of is not the same that he is speaking of.

I'm not sure if you're reading my posts or not. I'm not speaking about a Communist system, I'm speaking about Jacque Fresco's Resource Based Economy, which I have made incredibly clear multiple times.

[Rainbow Dash]

Also

0ve9b7nb8p4

(from 07)

fW2RLu7nCEg

(from the protests)

[DarkHalo003]

I'm not sure if you're reading my posts or not. I'm not speaking about a Communist system, I'm speaking about Jacque Fresco's Resource Based Economy, which I have made incredibly clear multiple times.
Ah, okay.

[Bobblehob]

Haha, there is a difference my pretty little Selentic, between something that is not possible because of human nature, and those that are limited by technology. Quite a large difference in fact...

[Rainbow Dash]

human nature

lol, congratulations on yet another cop out post?

[Bobblehob]

There is a difference between an argument you have yet to disprove, and a cop out my love ;3

[Rainbow Dash]

All you've brought to this thread is, Communism doesn't work because it's never worked so far, and it can't work because "human nature" which you obviously don't understand if you think just uttering it somehow makes everything you say irrefutable.

[DarkHalo003]

Human nature is too sporadic to use in an argument, in my opinion. Though humans do often seek to be better than each other, they also have the tendency to help those in need at the most crucial of moments. Regardless, as a staple of an argument here I feel human nature could go many directions and has too many variables to be used effectively.

[FreedomFighter7]

Jesus christ, this guy is irritating.

[TeeKup]

It's Sel. You're arguing with a stone wall that reaches into the stratosphere.

[Rainbow Dash]

It's Sel. You're arguing with a stone wall that reaches into the stratosphere.

If you have something that actually refutes something I say go ahead and post it, instead of trying to attack my character as a means to belittle what I say.

[TeeKup]

I called you stubborn. That's no more belittling or attacking your character than someone calling me gay. Big whup its the truth.

[neuro]

Jesus christ, this guy is irritating.

if this is all you have to contribute to a discussion, then it obviously went way over your head.
i'd suggest going back to your cartoons and MW3

and honestly, if you even had half the brain-capacity required to make an intelligent post that contributed something, you wouldn't have posted something as retarded as you just did.

[Rainbow Dash]

I called you stubborn. That's no more belittling or attacking your character than someone calling me gay. Big whup its the truth.

Oh ok, so you're name calling, but it's not meant to be an attack on me or anything, or have any bearing on the discussion in this thread!!

Makes sense!

[DarkHalo003]

if this is all you have to contribute to a discussion, then it obviously went way over your head.
i'd suggest going back to your cartoons and MW3

and honestly, if you even had half the brain-capacity required to make an intelligent post that contributed something, you wouldn't have posted something as retarded as you just did.
I don't know neuro, I think your post is borderline plain insulting. I think telling someone to go back to MW3 is equivalent telling someone to go straight to hell.

Let's please refrain from insulting (or stating any term that some may consider insulting) since I don't see any mods here yet.

[TeeKup]

Oh ok, so you're name calling, but it's not meant to be an attack on me or anything, or have any bearing on the discussion in this thread!!

Makes sense!

...I think you're over reacting...

[ICEE]

Oh ok, so you're name calling, but it's not meant to be an attack on me or anything, or have any bearing on the discussion in this thread!!

Makes sense!

Dude you just don't get it. You diminish the legitimacy of your arguments when you explode over minuscule shit like being called "stubborn", which by the way should NOT necessarily be taken as an insult. The point is, if you can't present your opinions in a palatable manner, you're just inviting people to ignore you, assume you're full of shit, or troll you. If you have any real appreciation for the content of your own sentiments, any desire for people to respond to you favorably, you'll have to change your tone.

[TVTyrant]

Dude you just don't get it. You diminish the legitimacy of your arguments when you explode over minuscule shit like being called "stubborn", which by the way should NOT necessarily be taken as an insult. The point is, if you can't present your opinions in a palatable manner, you're just inviting people to ignore you, assume you're full of shit, or troll you. If you have any real appreciation for the content of your own sentiments, any desire for people to respond to you favorably, you'll have to change your tone.
bingo

[Rainbow Dash]

Dude you just don't get it. You diminish the legitimacy of your arguments when you explode over minuscule shit like being called "stubborn", which by the way should NOT necessarily be taken as an insult.

Wait a minute, how is pointing out that something has no relevance to the topic at hand, and should not have been posted, even remotely close to "exploding"? If I got angry at every time someone tried to throw an irrelevant label onto me I'd have suffered a heart attack a long time ago.



The point is, if you can't present your opinions in a palatable manner, you're just inviting people to ignore you, assume you're full of shit, or troll you.

The people who ignore me, or jump to the assumption that I'm just "full of shit" are going to do that regardless. It doesn't matter how I say it to them, they lack the ability to process information.

[TPBlinD]

No sel you're pretty much full of shit all the time

[Rainbow Dash]

No sel you're pretty much full of shit all the time

This is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. There's no reasoning with someone who will immediately write off everything being said, without bothering to critically evaluate the information.

[ICEE]

Well see all im trying to say is that if you want to "reason" with someone, you better present it in a fitting way. And it doesn't matter if what teek said was or was not appropriate for the topic at hand. We're talking about you, and your responses here. If you want to change people's opinions and/or inform people about things that matter to you, (and that seems to be the goal of every thread you start) you gain nothing by reacting the way that you do. I'm not even trying to insult you here, or make attacks on you at all. I'm trying to help you forward your efforts here by improving the way your comments are going to be perceived.

[Rainbow Dash]

If you want to change people's opinions and/or inform people about things that matter to you,

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, I'm trying to present new information that will allow people to draw new conclusions, the only issue I see here is people who aren't interested in evaluating the information, or will simply label and write it off. If there is some problem with the way I'm transmitting the information here, please point it out so I can see about rectifying the issue.

[DarkHalo003]

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, I'm trying to present new information that will allow people to draw new conclusions, the only issue I see here is people who aren't interested in evaluating the information, or will simply label and write it off. If there is some problem with the way I'm transmitting the information here, please point it out so I can see about rectifying the issue.
It's mainly the manner you deliver it at times. It comes off considerably arrogant or zealous depending on the information. You also respond to certain arguments in a sort of aggressive disposition, almost as if you're proclaiming that they're utterly stupid for having a different opinion. It's mainly because you don't consider anyone else's points but your own. This isn't all of the time, but I have seen it several times throughout this thread.

[Donut]

the issue im perceiving is that you dont seem to accept anybody's opinion if it differs from yours. youre saying you are simply presenting information to allow other people to draw their own conclusions, yet when they actually do, you pretty much invariably question them. I understand completely that you're pointing out logical flaws in the various conclusions people draw, but at what point is a conclusion going to be reasonable to you? it seems like anything other than "i am on board with this" is met with hostility.

you're not just simply putting information out there. youre supporting it. theres nothing wrong with that, but that fact changes your entire motive from "presenting info for others to decide" to "this is what i believe and heres why you should too".

the other thing is the confrontational manner in which you present some of your responses. if someone is being a prick, fine, ignore them. if somebody comes up with something you think is wrong, explain why. dont sit there and straight up call them wrong or stupid. you undermine your efforts and make it seem like youre just in this for the sake of argument when you respond to people like that.

tl;dr: if you're mature enough to see a problem with a government and support an alternative, then show that maturity in your responses to others.

E: darkhalo nailed it.

[Rainbow Dash]

the issue im perceiving is that you dont seem to accept anybody's opinion if it differs from yours.

*implying that most of what I post is opinion*

I'm not gonna waste my time responding the rest of your post, or anyone else here who would rather carry out attacks on "the way my posts sound". If you're not going to evaluate the information here, and take part in discussions that are relevant to it, don't post.

Anyway~

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/05/06/pol-ottawa-bill-targets-masked-protesters-jail-fines.html


The Harper government is throwing its weight behind a private members' bill that would give police the power to arrest anyone hiding their identity during a riot or unlawful assembly.

[Bobblehob]

Oh man, they deleted all those extra posts xD Good job guys!

[Rainbow Dash]

Oh man, they deleted all those extra posts xD Good job guys!

You would think that your shit posts being deleted would be a strong enough signal to get it through your head that you should stop making them, but I guess not!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/05/10/pol-cp-masks-bill-penalty-doubled-mps.html


Conservative MPs have agreed to impose a maximum 10-year prison term on protesters who wear masks during a riot.

welp

[Bobblehob]

You would think that your shit posts being deleted would be a strong enough signal to get it through your head that you should stop making them, but I guess not!

I lol'd. When you say stupid shit like "*implying that most of what I post is opinion*" Then you deserve to have a few "shit" posts thrown in your direction.

[Rainbow Dash]

I lol'd. When you say stupid shit like "*implying that most of what I post is opinion*" Then you deserve to have a few "shit" posts thrown in your direction.

So when I post factual statements I deserve to receive shitty posts in response, alright, makes sense!

[Bobblehob]

So when I post factual statements I deserve to receive shitty posts in response, alright, makes sense!

You reference real facts that you post, then levy your opinions on top of them. Along with that most of the topics you post being centrally based around your opinion. Therefore most of what you post is your opinion, and not a fact. Hence why people think you are an arrogant twit.

[Rainbow Dash]

ysR-Npggh68

[Bobblehob]

Oh you, I might venture to call you stubborn but if I do I will probably get raged at xP

[neuro]

bob, you're not even being stubborn, you're just being a fucking idiot.
the fact you don't realise this makes it even more so true.

[Bobblehob]

bob, you're not even being stubborn, you're just being a fucking idiot.
the fact you don't realise this makes it even more so true.

Aww, I think I hurt little neuro's feelings.

I think he might not realize that trolling for reactions happens alot on internet forums, and that he might want to get used to it ;D

[Bodzilla]

Welcome to modacity,
Now get out.

[Donut]

:ugh: so you just walk in for the sole purpose of pissing everybody off? nice. thats really helping you get your point across.

[=sw=warlord]

Bobblehob.
Shut the fuck up already, You're terrible at posting, terrible at arguments, the only reason you came here in the first place was to show of your drawings which apparently you're also terrible at without the automated guide is splines.
You're even worse at trolling and all you're doing is shitting up what could be a perfectly good thread.

The only reason you're even attempting to troll the forum is out of spite, so please, get your self centered bigoted piece of shit out the thread and let the adults discuss real world matters unhampered by your childish antics.

[DarkHalo003]

This thread is now stupid and is going nowhere. Can a mod please clean the irrelevance up?

[Rainbow Dash]

Better yet how about we just ban bobblehob already so he can't run anymore threads into walls?

[DarkHalo003]

Better yet how about we just ban bobblehob already so he can't run anymore threads into walls?
Not going to lie dude, most people in this thread deserve to be banned for a while. Seriously, the past two pages have been stupidity and constant insult (despite whether one feels the other deserves). You might as well be watching two people slap each other back and forth.

[=sw=warlord]

You might as well be watching two people slap each other back and forth.
You make this sound like a bad thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s

[DarkHalo003]

I never said it wasn't entertaining, I just said for the sake of intelligent discussion it's detriment to staying on-topic.

[Rainbow Dash]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/05/17/quebec-student-protest.html

Try to read these article comments without having an aneurism.

We've got everything from people saying we should invoke fascism upon the protestors, to people comparing them to hitler, with the few sane comments that contain well formed discussion points and logic neg'd into oblivion, and responded to with nothing more than name calling, labels, and insults.

Pathetic.

[Rainbow Dash]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/05/18/montreal-orotest0.html


Montreal protest declared illegal after Molotov cocktail

gAfzUOx53Rg

:]

[TVTyrant]

wow. thats fucked.

[Rainbow Dash]

Almost as fucked as the comments these articles are still attracting.


This is mob rule and needs to be treated as such. Bring in the army before someone dies. A month of curfews and some cold water is very much needed now.


It's time to bring in the RCMP and the Army.
________________

Go ahead.


Cantankerous Militants/Student Protesters are once again
wandering with hidden agendas causing havoc on the streets
of Montreal.

They will shortly learn their lessons... re: Bill 78.

etc etc, it's disturbing how many of these fascism promoting comments (LETS JUST ARREST THEM ALL THAT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING) are on this article. What's even stranger than the amount of upvotes they're getting, is that the g20 article has some people posting more or less the same shit, and it's getting downvoted into oblivion, whereas in this article it gets loads of upvotes. Is someone paying a bunch of right wing crazies to spam the cbc with this shit or something? It makes no sense.

Atleast some people get it though.


Who threw the cocktails? Seriously, who the eff threw the cocktails?

How come they never catch these troublemakers? We really need to ask why they never get caught.

We can catch students in the metro planting smoke bombs but we can't get the people who have flaming effing bottles in their hands? Wtf?

[TVTyrant]

The cocktails guy makes a great point.

I'm so glad that none of the American protests have gotten to that point. I hope we're fucking smart enough to realize a volley of rifle fire is far more effective than a molotov cocktail.

[Rainbow Dash]

Who funds these so-called "student' protesters? My guess is unions and organized crime.

Follow the money. Look for bank account deposits to individuals or organizations. Do wiretaps. Shadow them, look for brown paper bags stuffed with cash, being transferred..

These are not the acts of students protesting small tuition hikes. These are the acts of organized groups who want something much more - political power without political (democratic) process, a.k.a. dictatorship.

The so-called "students" will have their time in court, to explain their actions. They would not have this right, in a dictatorship.

:lmao:

[DarkHalo003]

Trolling....dear God I hope so.

[Rainbow Dash]

QQH6WNpNkpg

[TVTyrant]

classic move by the popo, an excellent use of a pincer maneuver. Was especially effective in the time of the Greeks

[Rainbow Dash]

BREAKING: RICH WHITE GUY CALLS PROTESTORS LAZY, EMBARASSMENT TO CANADA. (http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/Racecar+driver+Villeneuve+tears+strip+Quebec+prote sters/6747965/story.html)

[Mr Buckshot]

minimum wage in quebec is $9.90/hour. tuition hike is like $1625.

protest has gone on for almost a hundred days already.

surely working for one hour a day in a minimum wage job over this time period would have taken care of more than half of this hike?

I was in Montreal last week, and I laughed when I saw a lot of these protestors using high end phones like iPhone 4 and whatever the latest Blackberry is. I also laughed when I overheard students (both in Quebec and outside) whining about tuition fees being too high while tapping away at their brand new $1500+ Macbooks inside the Starbucks at Chapters. Now I'm not saying that all users of these fancy laptops and phones were protesting, just pointing out how bloody IRONIC it is that so many college students complain about fees and hikes yet they don't have a problem splurging on these toys.

also, interesting how people are taking to the streets over a price hike on something that's not even essential, while the prices of essentials like the power bill, water bill, gasoline, public transit, and food are skyrocketing and no one seems to be protesting about that outside of the Internet.

[DarkHalo003]

Wow. Nearly $10 an hour for minimum. In the US it's nearly $3 less and in most cases it's even less than that. Quebec should stop bitching. Now.

[rossmum]

Wow. Nearly $10 an hour for minimum. In the US it's nearly $3 less and in most cases it's even less than that. Quebec should stop bitching. Now.
alternately americans should do something about their horrifically shitty minimum wage and the abhorrent gap between rich and poor

[Nero]

Just a FYI Darkhalo. America may have a lower minimum wage, but at the same time, you guys have things WAY cheaper. Most people I know on the Canadian side, jump at every chance to go shopping across the boarder and bring stuff back. Even with duty (Tax), everything is still cheaper.

So yes, we get more pay, but we pay more for almost everything. OH and don't forget the huge taxes we have here. For example, Ontario has a 13 percent tax on almost everything.

[TVTyrant]

Oregon's minimum is like 9 bucks an hour

Do I really have to keep proving how awesome this state is? We're the fucking Sweden of America, niggas.

[neuro]

darkhalo,

just because you're used to eating dogshit, that doesn't mean other people can't complain for being forced to eat rubber.
shut your mouth already, dumbfuck.



edit: same story for you buckshot.


just because people have a fancypantsyphone, that in no way automatically invalidates the validity of the fact that it's bullshit, or the validity of protests.

[Timo]

Just a FYI Darkhalo. America may have a lower minimum wage, but at the same time, you guys have things WAY cheaper. Most people I know on the Canadian side, jump at every chance to go shopping across the boarder and bring stuff back. Even with duty (Tax), everything is still cheaper.

So yes, we get more pay, but we pay more for almost everything. OH and don't forget the huge taxes we have here. For example, Ontario has a 13 percent tax on almost everything.

Most places in the world have a goods and services (Value added) tax. It's 15% here in New Zealand.

[neuro]

europe, 19% on everything you buy

[Bobblehob]

Sucks for you guys.

[rossmum]

also, interesting how people are taking to the streets over a price hike on something that's not even essential, while the prices of essentials like the power bill, water bill, gasoline, public transit, and food are skyrocketing and no one seems to be protesting about that outside of the Internet.
whoah what the fuck fantasy world do you live in where education is not essential

[Timo]

Sucks for you guys.

Meh. I'd rather pay a bit of GST than have higher income tax.

[Higuy]

Min wage in my state is 8 dollars an hour. I work for 3 days a week getting paid 10 dollars an hour and have no trouble paying for stuff that I need, also insanely easy to simply save money for future things like college as well. It isn't rocket science at all, just be smart with how you use your money.

[Mr Buckshot]

whoah what the fuck fantasy world do you live in where education is not essential

easy there, talking about college education here, not education in general. Coming from someone who does go to college btw. people can be pretty successful going into practical trades, the army, the police, etc right out of high school and forgoing post-secondary altogether. But unfortunately this generation has bred the mentality that a degree is like a ticket to success.


just because people have a fancypantsyphone, that in no way automatically invalidates the validity of the fact that it's bullshit, or the validity of protests.

fair enough, of course anyone barely able to make ends meet and wanting to go to college has every right to contest a tuition hike that would set them back a lot. Just saying that those who have the disposable income to splurge on these fancy toys, don't look like they belong inside such a protest.

[=sw=warlord]

also, interesting how people are taking to the streets over a price hike on something that's not even essential, while the prices of essentials like the power bill, water bill, gasoline, public transit, and food are skyrocketing and no one seems to be protesting about that outside of the Internet.
Bitch please.
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/cobby87/article-2091004-1170EC4A000005DC-803_634x760.jpg

[DarkHalo003]

@Nero: This is true, but it still doesn't equalize a lot of U.S. residents having decent living nor does it make much of anything better. They still must pay property and income tax.

@Tyrant: Lol Oregon.


darkhalo,

just because you're used to eating dogshit, that doesn't mean other people can't complain for being forced to eat rubber.
shut your mouth already, dumbfuck.



edit: same story for you buckshot.



:words:

Most working-class U.S. citizens (about 50% of the populace) can't get by or hardly get by because they're relying on less than $8 an hour and the hours they work are never guaranteed. Also, U.S. sales tax is like 7% generally and increases depending on the state, some going up to 11%. Every American is also required by law to paw Income/Property Taxes. So really, it balances it in different sectors. Just because your shit is up front doesn't mean we're any less fucked by taxes.

[=sw=warlord]

:words:

Most working-class U.S. citizens (about 50% of the populace) can't get by or hardly get by because they're relying on less than $8 an hour and the hours they work are never guaranteed. Also, U.S. sales tax is like 7% generally and increases depending on the state, some going up to 11%. Every American is also required by law to paw Income/Property Taxes. So really, it balances it in different sectors. Just because your shit is up front doesn't mean we're any less fucked by taxes.

Bitch please.
In the UK minimum wage is:

£6.08 - the main rate for workers aged 21 and over (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/employees/thenationalminimumwage/dg_10027201)
£4.98 - the 18-20 rate (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/employees/thenationalminimumwage/dg_10027201)
£3.68 - the 16-17 rate for workers above school leaving age but under 18 (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/employees/thenationalminimumwage/dg_10027201)
£2.60 - the apprentice rate, for apprentices under 19 or 19 or over and in the first year of their apprenticeship

Oh and did I mention just because our wages are lower that the prices don't scale along with those wages?
A gallon of fuel here $9.37.

[Bodzilla]

just because other people have it worse doesnt mean you should stop trying to have it better.

[DarkHalo003]

Bitch please.
In the UK minimum wage is:

£6.08 - the main rate for workers aged 21 and over (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/employees/thenationalminimumwage/dg_10027201)
£4.98 - the 18-20 rate (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/employees/thenationalminimumwage/dg_10027201)
£3.68 - the 16-17 rate for workers above school leaving age but under 18 (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/employees/thenationalminimumwage/dg_10027201)
£2.60 - the apprentice rate, for apprentices under 19 or 19 or over and in the first year of their apprenticeship

Oh and did I mention just because our wages are lower that the prices don't scale along with those wages?
A gallon of fuel here $9.37.


UK makes me :(. Still think it's an awesome place though. Do need to plan a visit there one day.

@Bodz: It doesn't, but there becomes a time when it looks like something has to change and Quebec really doesn't need resources reallocated to increase THEIR tuition. Everyone is in a bind right now and I don't see any justification to increase an already decent tuition coverage. Unless of course I'm missing something.

[Rainbow Dash]

minimum wage in quebec is $9.90/hour. tuition hike is like $1625.

protest has gone on for almost a hundred days already.

surely working for one hour a day in a minimum wage job over this time period would have taken care of more than half of this hike?


http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-canada-ei-jobs/gfx/canada.jpg

There are 6.4 people for every single "vacancy" in quebec, in reality the number is much higher than that, because it's only counting people who the system considers "unemployed" which ignores another large percentage of the population who simply do not give a shit anymore and don't see the point in trying.

Also you should really think about the logic here of asking people who are supposed to be spending the vast majority of their time educating themselves, which would take up a huge amount of time, why they should have to spend every waking moment either working or studying, because forcing people into that is just begging for more people to become a psychological mess, like so many others on our planet have become thanks to similar attitudes.



also, interesting how people are taking to the streets over a price hike on something that's not even essential, while the prices of essentials like the power bill, water bill, gasoline, public transit, and food are skyrocketing and no one seems to be protesting about that outside of the Internet.

They did do that, last year, it was called Occupy Wall Street and was a nearly global protest. Then, in most cases, the police walked in and shut it down :]


just because other people have it worse doesnt mean you should stop trying to have it better.

Pretty much this, if people would stop being content with the world as it is because, "it could be worse I guess!!!", and instead actively sought a better one, we would have had so much societal evolution by now that we could explore space together or something!

[Mr Buckshot]

if the occupy protests were including the issues of the price of essentials, then they weren't sending the right message. Not that it's wrong to protest income inequality, but I'd prefer to see protests against specifics, like how TransLink in BC is raising fares, reducing services, and at the same time giving their executives multi million dollar bonuses - benefiting themselves while screwing over those who cannot afford cars. Or how the 1% pocket the proceeds of excess distribution taxes so that the general populace gets slapped with the nonsense of how food produced locally costs far more than the exact same food down south that was imported from here. Or how the government allows rich foreigners to buy Maple Cards with pocket change and make housing unaffordable for people who actually live here (at least in Vancouver, it's a more serious problem than one might think).

people will be more likely to empathize with specifics than with the general idea of "there is inequality". It's just too broad and is too likely to give people the notion that the protesters have entitlement issues, whether it's true or not.

and I never said "spend every waking moment either working or studying" and the fact that I'm an enthusiastic gamer like everyone else here kind of implies I wouldn't support it.

[Rainbow Dash]

If we had a protest for every single problem Capitalism causes, we would be protesting for the next thousand years, to make time for all of those.

[TVTyrant]

Oregon minimum wage: $8.80 per hour (highest in country)

Oregon sales tax: None

Yeah that's right. Go stick it bitches

Anyways, I don't even know anybody who works minimum here, and if I did I'd feel bad for them. I'm making $11.50 now, tax free because I'm a dependent who only works three months out of the year. All of my friends are machinists or mechanics so I'm fucking poor compared to them.

I guess the thesis is that Oregon fucking rules, and no you can't come. Too many damn Mexicans are already fucking this up. Go ahead and visit as many times as you want, but I'm going to start kicking out non Oregonians I swear to fucking god.

[TVTyrant]

Also, I still don't get why Obama and Harper don't start working together on some kind of mass transit project or something. A huge bullet train system would provide thousands of jobs, and would allow people to move around the countries much easier. We don't live in tiny countries.

tl;dr: y no nu deel?

[Mr Buckshot]

if the protests could focus on one specific right now, and manage to force a positive change as a result, that would still send a message that the people are fighting back for real, and possibly help to reduce other problems without the need for another protest.

anyway, we humans suck. Put $100,000 in the hands of each protester, I'm pretty sure many of them are going to abruptly turn their heads in the opposite direction and never come back.


Also, I still don't get why Obama and Harper don't start working together on some kind of mass transit project or something. A huge bullet train system would provide thousands of jobs, and would allow people to move around the countries much easier. We don't live in tiny countries.

tl;dr: y no nu deel?

been wishing for this for a while. I would gladly welcome a tenfold increase in gas prices if we got efficient mass transit (at the level of Europe or Japan) across the whole continent in exchange. But North America on average is just too sparsely populated to justify the cost. And many people will be too selfish to accept a necessary tax raise to pay for this.

[Rainbow Dash]

if the protests could focus on one specific right now, and manage to force a positive change as a result, that would still send a message that the people are fighting back for real, and possibly help to reduce other problems without the need for another protest.


The issue that OWS addressed was Capitalism, which is the root cause of all the problems that brought them together. I'll say it again, there's literally 0 point in having seperate protests for every sub-issue that grows out of it.

[rossmum]

easy there, talking about college education here, not education in general. Coming from someone who does go to college btw. people can be pretty successful going into practical trades, the army, the police, etc right out of high school and forgoing post-secondary altogether. But unfortunately this generation has bred the mentality that a degree is like a ticket to success.
trades are super important and more people need to get into them, but some people are either unsuitable or simply have other aspirations. people should not have their hopes and dreams shot down just because their education is not 'essential'.

frankly in an ideal world, even tradies would be able to continue their education on whatever the fuck they want, because there is no such thing as too much knowledge. education should be free, allowing people to learn for as long as they like, even while they work and then once they're retired.

[TVTyrant]

And the moment we figure out a way to pay for it, you betcha we'll do that

[rossmum]

no you won't you'll give that money to rich assholes and bomb some fucker for something that isn't even really your business in the first place then get attacked by terrists and then the vicious cycle perpetuates

[Mr Buckshot]

ah, what I'm curious is, how many of these protesters are actually following "hopes and dreams" when in college? I'm not saying there aren't protesters who're taking education seriously, but one has to admit, the trend in recent years has been that more and more people going to college don't truly want to do so, thanks to the mentality our parents have bred upon us.

in my graduating year, it was kinda distressing how many students were just saying "I'm going to university" without any real clue of what they were doing. 3 years later more than half of these guys are pretty miserable and finishing their degrees without having accomplished anything meaningful.

also, comically low high school standards (to the point that immigrants who don't speak english as a first language are breezing through english class with top grades) have given everyone severely inflated grades which just contributes even more to the mentality that "I gotta go to college" since they feel empowered by the fact that they qualified.

[rossmum]

perhaps they are trying to find what they want to do? i have dropped out three times and i think i'm finally onto a winner. not everyone has some clear-cut ambition from the moment they're a child all the way through to high school and university.

also american schools are absolutely awful by virtually any other country's standards, and need immediate attention. commonwealth nations' schools are much better, although still not ideal.

[Mr Buckshot]

perhaps they are trying to find what they want to do? i have dropped out three times and i think i'm finally onto a winner. not everyone has some clear-cut ambition from the moment they're a child all the way through to high school and university.

also american schools are absolutely awful by virtually any other country's standards, and need immediate attention. commonwealth nations' schools are much better, although still not ideal.

I've heard good things about British and Australian schools, and I myself went through the British system in my childhood days (relic of old colonial times). The classic GCSE, O-level, A-level system.

I have been through both the American and Canadian systems. I think Canada's was worse, though the rate of decay is not as bad. I wish I was joking when I say that the math I learned in Grade 7 public middle school in America was more advanced than Grade 10 math in public Canadian high schools.

in a way, shitty high schools are part of the college problem here, because they just don't do enough to help kids learn where their interests lie. Even the non-academic classes that are supposed to prepare potential tradies have degenerated into "I signed up for this class to get an easy A". Of course you can't expect everyone to discover themselves in high school but high school could have done more to help out nevertheless. The trend of going to college just because it seems like the only "right way" needs to be addressed.

e: for reference, I did grades 5-7 in California and 8-12 in B.C., and my schools were located in pretty well-off districts.

[TVTyrant]

perhaps they are trying to find what they want to do? i have dropped out three times and i think i'm finally onto a winner. not everyone has some clear-cut ambition from the moment they're a child all the way through to high school and university.

also american schools are absolutely awful by virtually any other country's standards, and need immediate attention. commonwealth nations' schools are much better, although still not ideal.
Our problems are based on the flood of Mexicans coming into this country. I know. Both of my parents are teachers.

Also your point on rich people makes no sense. Obviously if we were focused on free college then we'd be doing the exact opposite of what you're saying. common man

[TVTyrant]

I've heard good things about British and Australian schools, and I myself went through the British system in my childhood days (relic of old colonial times). The classic GCSE, O-level, A-level system.

I have been through both the American and Canadian systems. I think Canada's was worse, though the rate of decay is not as bad. I wish I was joking when I say that the math I learned in Grade 7 public middle school in America was more advanced than Grade 10 math in public Canadian high schools.

in a way, shitty high schools are part of the college problem here, because they just don't do enough to help kids learn where their interests lie. Even the non-academic classes that are supposed to prepare potential tradies have degenerated into "I signed up for this class to get an easy A". Of course you can't expect everyone to discover themselves in high school but high school could have done more to help out nevertheless. The trend of going to college just because it seems like the only "right way" needs to be addressed.
I like this guy

[Mr Buckshot]

One of my teaching assistants was from Iran, and while he doesn't miss the government one bit, he does miss the academic system that he went through in Tehran, where university was free but admission was based on a OMFG-rape-difficulty entrance exam with a very high bar. It's not the fairest way to admit students, but at least it meant nearly 100% of the students in his undergrad university were there because they really wanted to be.

His comment on the protests was that the cost isn't the main problem, it's the "everyone is in college without actually wanting to be" that's the problem. The truly motivated are far less likely to protest the cost of education even though they have the right to do so, regardless of their incomes.

in the end, I do want to feel sympathetic to the Quebec protests but the reality of college circumstances nowadays makes it difficult.

[DarkHalo003]

That's a pretty bad stereotype regarding American schools Rossmum. I went to a very good public school, especially for my county in Georgia, and I would not be nearly as capable in writing, theatre, or anything else I'm somewhat decent at. However, you are correct in saying that there are a lot of bad schools in the U.S. If anything it exacerbates how shitty the country's bureaucracy is.