Surprise, Conservatives lied about something!

[Rainbow Dash]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/12/auditor-general-f-35.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/08/f35-mackay-cost.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/05/pol-ferguson-committee.html

Please, square, this circle Freelancer.

[Amit]

Heh, check out this poll: http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2012/04/should-canada-drop-the-plan-to-buy-f-35-jets-and-start-over.html

Should Canada drop the plan to buy F-35 jets and start over?


(http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2012/04/should-canada-drop-the-plan-to-buy-f-35-jets-and-start-over.html)The results as of 1 minute ago:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/amit9821/Capture-41.png

[Cortexian]

Wow that poll goes to show how completely fucking stupid the majority of people who voted for it are.

We're commited on the F-35's now and we can't back out. We SHOULD be spending more on them anyway. The given reason for the sudden increase in price is valid, that the original price quoted was for the aircraft alone (which it was). You people are dumb if you thought aircraft cost = upkeep cost.

I deleted your post warlord because:
a) It wasn't amusing/funny/witty.
b) useless.

EDIT: Please look up the original estimate documentation (I had it yesterday when I checked after seeing this on the news), it specifically lists ONLY the aircraft cost. They may have "intentionally" left out the other costs for political BS reasons or just because they weren't sure what those costs would be at the time we actually started using the things. They never mislead anyone, or lied, because no one ever asked about those other costs. That's their fault for overlooking something extremely important.

You're living in a dream world if you think that starting over and building (or contracting) a company to make a jet that meets all the CF requirements will be cheaper than just buying some F-35's. Please turn your brain all the way on before posting about starting over.

[=sw=warlord]

I deleted your post warlord because:
a) It wasn't amusing/funny/witty.



Right because you alone are the sole overlord of what is funny and what isn't.
Also, you honestly think that in a economic recession that you REALLY need a brand new fleet of planes?

[PopeAK49]

Right because you alone are the sole overlord of what is funny and what isn't.
Also, you honestly think that in a economic recession that you REALLY need a brand new fleet of planes?

If you want to fly out of your country, then, yes...

[=sw=warlord]

If you want to fly out of your country, then, yes...
I should have put fighter planes.

[Rainbow Dash]

Also, you honestly think that in a economic recession that you REALLY need a brand new fleet of planes?

Not just in an economic recession, just in general, it's a huge waste of resources that could be spent on things that actually BENEFIT humanity.

Also we didn't commit to it, our "leaders" committed to it, and now we should be throwing them out, and telling the USA to go fuck itself with its planes.

[DarkHalo003]

Government should focus on these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Frame

I'd enlist with no questions ask and the research/development that would go into their creation could reap all sorts of benefits in the civil/commercial sectors.

[PopeAK49]

Not just in an economic recession, just in general, it's a huge waste of resources that could be spent on things that actually BENEFIT humanity.

Also we didn't commit to it, our "leaders" committed to it, and now we should be throwing them out, and telling the USA to go fuck itself with its planes.

Not to mention the wasted money used on re-paving highway roads just because they don't look 'black' or 'new' enough. I understand re-paving roads when there are pot holes and huge cracks, but just because they don't 'look' appealing?

You would think that when a country is in debt they would look at things that will help create a good amount of income. Not spend it on things that don't even need improvements. Maybe conduct research on things that other countries would find beneficial? Looking at a newly paved road or seeing some kickass looking jets will not help for shit. All countries should have a list of prioritized spending. Don't tell me that they do, because if they do, then it is a list of bullshit.

[ICEE]

One of my awesomest twitter subscriptions recommended this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/liberals-and-conservatives-dont-just-vote-differently-they-think-differently/2012/04/12/gIQAzb1kDT_story.html), and he was right to do so. It is an interesting read, pertinent to the topic of this thread.

[rossmum]

aviation nerd input: the f-35 is a pile of shit. the soviets had a plane with identical flight performance to what the f-35 is SUPPOSED to do in 1989, but scrapped it. guess who bought its vtol system? lockheed martin! amazing. guess what, though? the yak-141 wasn't massively delayed, overbudget, and plagued with problems. the f-35 is so badly over the line in everything they ought to just fucking cancel the thing. it shows just how idiotic the usaf's leadership is that they still haven't learned the f-111's lesson and expect the f-35 to be all things to all men and replace everything in the usaf inventory after a few decades. the f-22 is far superior, and even it has issues, but at least it's in service and it works mostly.

if western nations had a single iota of goddamned sense they would cancel their orders on the f-35, cut their losses, and buy sukhois from the russians. good planes, cheap by comparison, do everything that american planes do and more. this obsession with super stealthy bullshit is fucking stupid and wasteful, it's a pink elephant when you cannot make your plane physically invisible and a sukhoi will murder anything short of the f-22 at close range. russian planes arrive on time, on budget, and are capable immediately. american aircraft are always made out to be far better than they are in reality and more often than not are an inferior choice (f-111 vs tsr.2).

by the way, aircraft cost != upkeep cost. the f-35 is looking like it will follow the f-111 in being exceptionally troublesome and expensive as shit to fix. expect it to be at least a decade before the damn thing even approaches what it was said to be capable of doing. at least when all was said and done, the pig was an excellent strike aircraft. the f-35, on the other hand, is unlikely to be exceptional at anything.

[Roostervier]

aviation nerd input: the f-35 is a pile of shit. the soviets had a plane with identical flight performance to what the f-35 is SUPPOSED to do in 1989, but scrapped it. Oh, they scrapped it conveniently when the soviet navy ran out of money, must've been one faulty design! Couldn't be that your love for dirty slavs is leading you to try and make the situation sound better than it was, right?

[nuttyyayap]

aviation nerd input: the f-35 is a pile of shit. the soviets had a plane with identical flight performance to what the f-35 is SUPPOSED to do in 1989, but scrapped it. guess who bought its vtol system? lockheed martin! amazing. guess what, though? the yak-141 wasn't massively delayed, overbudget, and plagued with problems.
.
F-35 will be the YAK-38 of the USAF, no doubt.

if western nations had a single iota of goddamned sense they would cancel their orders on the f-35, cut their losses, and buy sukhois from the russians.
As a fellow aviation nerd I'm sure you've heard of the Starfighter Scandle? You know, when LM BRIBED others nations to buy the F-104? Yeah, I don't think I need to explain anymore.

[rossmum]

Oh, they scrapped it conveniently when the soviet navy ran out of money, must've been one faulty design! Couldn't be that your love for dirty slavs is leading you to try and make the situation sound better than it was, right?
yeah man i mean it's so obvious it's staring us all in the face! rather than the years of hemorrhaging (sp?) money to try outdo the west technologically, it was one plane which bled the soviet navy dry!

your post reads like heavy sarcasm, so i will assume it is; the point stands, though, for those who would believe it. the yak-141 was a successful design and had almost analoguous performance characteristics (minus stealth/avionic capabilities) to the f-35. it was canned because the soviet union ran out of money, entirely the result of trying to keep pace with the us militarily, which is impossible. lockheed martin bought the tech and then fucked it.

the 141 worked, which is more than anyone can even jokingly say about the f-35. it is an indefensible money pit with substandard capabilities for a fifth-gen aircraft, let alone one intended to replace just about every other combat type in usaf service.

[Cagerrin]

it's pretty obvious at this point that we need to strap a Harrier engine onto the Bf.109, sling the 262/U4's BK5 under it and call it a the new face of air superiority.

still better than the F-35

[TeeKup]

.As a fellow aviation nerd I'm sure you've heard of the Starfighter Scandle? You know, when LM BRIBED others nations to buy the F-104? Yeah, I don't think I need to explain anymore.

You couldn't pay me to fly a Starfighter. That machine was just so bloody terrible.

Supposedly the F-35 is also to replace the A-10A Thunderbolt II. The lack of intelligence in this decision is astounding, not really surprising though.

If you want to replace one of the best ground attack aircraft with something as unproven and unknown as the F-35 go right ahead, and tell me how that goes.

[DarkHalo003]

Or, I don't know, keep both in service? Having an aerial support for ground assaults is an important tactic in effectively winning a battle. Besides, does Canada even need an entirely new airplane model for their fleet? I mean, some of the tech may be "outdated," but it's not like there are any countries in the world that would dominate them entirely through technology alone. Ultimately, this deal looks like one of those "We don't need to do this, but since it's a been a while we should do it anyways).

[TeeKup]

Canada is our hat, if anything happened to the continent as a whole in terms of incursion or invasion we'd probably help out to a large degree.

[TVTyrant]

We should have stuck to the F-22 program

[TeeKup]

The Air Superiority Fighter that can't fly in the rain for extended periods of time, and has had a history thus far of oxygen system problems?

As much as I used to love the F-22, I think I'll stick with the F-15E Strike Eagle.

[TVTyrant]

The Air Superiority Fighter that can't fly in the rain for extended periods of time, and has had a history thus far of oxygen system problems?

As much as I used to love the F-22, I think I'll stick with the F-15E Strike Eagle.
Aviation is too expensive no matter what. We've gone as far as we should logically go with it (budget-wise). So yeah, I agree with you. I just thought they were neat.

[TeeKup]

The F-22 is an amazing aircraft and has achieved many feats. It's out performed the Eagle and its family with an EXTREMELY high success ratio in simulations. And I have no doubt in my mind that if you're an enemy pilot, and you see a Raptor gaining on your tail, you best be flying something truly amazing or you better be shitting yourself.

[Amit]

F-15E is my favourite aircraft because it can be truly multi-role on the same mission and it looks so fucking good.

[TVTyrant]

BRING BACK THE F14!

[TeeKup]

Petition to bring back the F-14D Super Tomcat. I'm okay with this.

[Zeph]

aviation nerd input: the f-35 is a pile of shit. the soviets had a plane with identical flight performance to what the f-35 is SUPPOSED to do in 1989, but scrapped it. guess who bought its vtol system? lockheed martin! amazing. guess what, though? the yak-141 wasn't massively delayed, overbudget, and plagued with problems. the f-35 is so badly over the line in everything they ought to just fucking cancel the thing. it shows just how idiotic the usaf's leadership is that they still haven't learned the f-111's lesson and expect the f-35 to be all things to all men and replace everything in the usaf inventory after a few decades. the f-22 is far superior, and even it has issues, but at least it's in service and it works mostly.

if western nations had a single iota of goddamned sense they would cancel their orders on the f-35, cut their losses, and buy sukhois from the russians. good planes, cheap by comparison, do everything that american planes do and more. this obsession with super stealthy bullshit is fucking stupid and wasteful, it's a pink elephant when you cannot make your plane physically invisible and a sukhoi will murder anything short of the f-22 at close range. russian planes arrive on time, on budget, and are capable immediately. american aircraft are always made out to be far better than they are in reality and more often than not are an inferior choice (f-111 vs tsr.2).

by the way, aircraft cost != upkeep cost. the f-35 is looking like it will follow the f-111 in being exceptionally troublesome and expensive as shit to fix. expect it to be at least a decade before the damn thing even approaches what it was said to be capable of doing. at least when all was said and done, the pig was an excellent strike aircraft. the f-35, on the other hand, is unlikely to be exceptional at anything.

Yeah, because the whole point of the f-35 was an independent air dominance fighter......
It's getting sold because of its electronics suite that's getting underplayed because lawmakers are inherently idiots when it comes to technology. It's a synergistic platform that will only shine when it's out there in the field working with other units as intended.

That is of course if the eggheads ever actually get around to finish programming the thing :ohdear:


Supposedly the F-35 is also to replace the A-10A Thunderbolt II. The lack of intelligence in this decision is astounding, not really surprising though.
Not sure where you heard that, but no. A-10A is gonna be sticking around even longer if we decide to fiddle in the desert for a while more. 2030 we'll probably see a redesign of it that uses more composite materials and gets some better armor/avionics in it.



We should have stuck to the F-22 program
Could have, but that would have only fed the air force their planes. Navy and Marines need an overhaul within the next two decades. The government did decide to spend a few bil to mothball the f-22 production line instead of scrapping it. Heaven forbid it not actually be targeted by all the ICBMs.

[Kornman00]

Canada is our hat, if anything happened to the continent as a whole in terms of incursion or invasion we'd probably help out to a large degree.
Are you sure?

2758

Maybe we should just lose our top :mech2:

[rossmum]

Yeah, because the whole point of the f-35 was an independent air dominance fighter......
Trying to get one plane to do literally everything has worked precisely once in history, and that plane was the de Havilland Mosquito. It is beyond all rational thought why the US continues to try and make a do-everything plane when they have failed every single time. They're just lucky their failures are usually good at at least one thing, but the F-35 isn't even good at being finished.

[nuttyyayap]

Because it saves time and effort, plain and simple.
Why waste time making 3+ planes for all multiple different mission packages if you can make one mediocre plane?
See: Thud (F-105 Thunderchief for those not "in the know")/F-111

[=sw=warlord]

Why use a claw hammer when you can use a sledge hammer to put those nails in the wall?

[Rainbow Dash]

Because it saves time and effort, plain and simple.
Why waste time making 3+ planes for all multiple different mission packages if you can make one mediocre plane?
See: Thud (F-105 Thunderchief for those not "in the know")/F-111

Why get the fucking planes at all? They're a total waste of resources, and if there's actually a war in the future some fucking planes aren't going to do anything to stop the destruction WMDs do.

All they do is elevate tensions, when we're a fucking peacekeeper nation.

[nuttyyayap]

I agree with you Sel, there is no reason for Canada to get the jets.
As for stopping the WMD... MiG-25/31.

[DarkHalo003]

Government should focus on these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Frame

I'd enlist with no questions ask and the research/development that would go into their creation could reap all sorts of benefits in the civil/commercial sectors.
Just saying.

[nuttyyayap]

*long rant about how walker vehicles are dumb and inefficient in any way, shape or form and about the power supply needed and the weakness of the legs and how--- okay I'll shut up now*
Just sayin'

[Cortexian]

Do any of you know WHY Canada is investing in new fighter aircraft?

It's due to pressure from the USA that our existing gaggle of CF-18's aren't satisfactory to uphold the role of Northern Defense in-case of North American invasion. Blame NORAD.

The USA was initially going to just GIVE us some F-35's to use in pity. Then Harper got in and was all:

"Do I look like a charity case F-35 man? I take your F-35's AND THROW THEM ON THE GROUND"

(Now we'll just buy them ourselves)

[Rainbow Dash]

No one with an ounce of sense gives a shit why we're doing it, because those people can see that it's a fucking waste regardless of that.

[DarkHalo003]

*long rant about how walker vehicles are dumb and inefficient in any way, shape or form and about the power supply needed and the weakness of the legs and how--- okay I'll shut up now*
Just sayin'
Read the article. The Knightmares don't walk. Walker units are stupid. Watch Code Geass. Seriously.

[TVTyrant]

I'm going to laugh when we cancel our F-35 plans.

UAVs are way too efficient.

[Amit]

Do any of you know WHY Canada is investing in new fighter aircraft?

It's due to pressure from the USA that our existing gaggle of CF-18's aren't satisfactory to uphold the role of Northern Defense in-case of North American invasion. Blame NORAD.

The USA was initially going to just GIVE us some F-35's to use in pity. Then Harper got in and was all:

"Do I look like a charity case F-35 man? I take your F-35's AND THROW THEM ON THE GROUND"

(Now we'll just buy them ourselves)

LOL, that was actually funny to read. Lmao, charity...that's brialliant :D

[rossmum]

Just saying.
walker mechs are the most retarded and inefficient vehicle imaginable for anything, much less combat. i severely doubt they will ever exist as anything but a fun novelty.


Do any of you know WHY Canada is investing in new fighter aircraft?

It's due to pressure from the USA that our existing gaggle of CF-18's aren't satisfactory to uphold the role of Northern Defense in-case of North American invasion. Blame NORAD.

The USA was initially going to just GIVE us some F-35's to use in pity. Then Harper got in and was all:

"Do I look like a charity case F-35 man? I take your F-35's AND THROW THEM ON THE GROUND"

(Now we'll just buy them ourselves)
We should pull out of fucking NORAD and let the Americans take care of their own shit. It's not the fucking fifties anymore and we aren't going to get nuked by the Soviets (most likely we wouldn't have been even then if we had kept out of fucking NORAD).

The CF-18s are fine for now, the F-35 is a pile of shit and in severe need of cancelling, and all future Canadian combat aircraft should be sourced from competent countries like Russia or the various European partnerships.


Read the article. The Knightmares don't walk. Walker units are stupid. Watch Code Geass. Seriously.
okay, rollerblading walkers, seriously? that's like, even dumber

fuck anime

[TVTyrant]

Anime rules and youre just too jaded to see it Ross

:gar:

[Cagerrin]

There's good anime, Geass just

isn't

it

[TVTyrant]

There's good anime, Geass just

isn't

it
Gurren Lagann!

[=sw=warlord]

Just buy your tech from somewhere like Germany.
German Engineering > American.

[DarkHalo003]

There's good anime, Geass just

isn't

it
What. I'll respect your opinion, but may I ask why you dislike it? Have you seen both seasons?

Check those float units out Ross. Lancelot Albion and Gawain for the win.

[TeeKup]

I wouldn't mind acquiring a few Panavia Tornado's.

Such a gorgeous aircraft.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/panavia-tornado-adv.jpg

[=sw=warlord]

We have a few of those fly over the house every so often.
I might see about taking a few pictures of when the Lancaster flies over as well if anyone is interested.

[nuttyyayap]

Tornado's make me nerdgasm :iamafag: Needs moar global service.
That, and Buccaneers need to be brought back.
However, I must say you'd be better off working on navalizing a EF2000 Typhoon than continuing production on the F-35.
(I think we need a dedicated aviation thread...)

[Amit]

We have a few of those fly over the house every so often.
I might see about taking a few pictures of when the Lancaster flies over as well if anyone is interested.

The Avro Lancaster? DO WANT.

[=sw=warlord]

The Avro Lancaster? DO WANT.
There's a airshow every year and for a few weeks before hand they always do a rehearsal around where I live, few times the plane has been low enough to make the house shake.
For those in the US whose houses are mostly wood, Brick houses do not normal shake.