Helium, you know, that scarce resource we're about to run out of :3

[Rainbow Dash]

You know, that very scarce resource that we can not produce artificially, that we waste on useless garbage like floating balloons?

cmVZVMv4K4U

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-the-world-is-running-out-of-helium-2059357.html


Scientists have warned that the world's most commonly used inert gas is being depleted at an astonishing rate because of a law passed in the United States in 1996 which has effectively made helium too cheap to recycle.


The law stipulates that the US National Helium Reserve, which is kept in a disused underground gas field near Amarillo, Texas – by far the biggest store of helium in the world – must all be sold off by 2015, irrespective of the market price.


The experts warn that the world could run out of helium within 25 to 30 years, potentially spelling disaster for hospitals, whose MRI scanners are cooled by the gas in liquid form, and anti-terrorist authorities who rely on helium for their radiation monitors, as well as the millions of children who love to watch their helium-filled balloons float into the sky.

[Rentafence]

Helium is gay cool your shit with nitrogen fuck the TSA and balloons are for babies neon 2012

[n00b1n8R]

And here I was thinking helium was produced from fractional distillation of the atmosphere. TMYK!
Seems like this is a pretty clean cut argument, H is pretty important! (lets go to the moon and mine its H3!)


Helium is gay cool your shit with nitrogen fuck the TSA and balloons are for babies neon 2012
ur bad @ science aka ur bad @ lyf

[DarkHalo003]

And you all wonder why I have a general dislike for humanity. STUPID SHIT.

[Rentafence]

ur bad @ science aka ur bad @ lyf

u caled helium H l0l

[Futzy]

help now the heliumed goed too

[DEElekgolo]

lol who cars about heelyum we have ocsyjen

[FreedomFighter7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

Replace helium with another gas, preferably one derived from other sources? And that's only the largest reserve of helium in the world, there are others.

[Rainbow Dash]

Replace helium with another gas

Like what?


And that's only the largest reserve of helium in the world, there are others.

Ok, so we managed to decimate the largest supply of it in a very short time, solution, let's just get it elsewhere!!!

[Higuy]

I heard somewhere that some people are looking into mining on the moon becuase its rich with helium (pretty sure I heard that on another topic on this very site).

[TVTyrant]

im kind if surprised, but then I never paid much attention to helium. hydrogen was always higher on my list of gasses, and iron is my favorite element.

[Rainbow Dash]

I heard somewhere that some people are looking into mining on the moon becuase its rich with helium (pretty sure I heard that on another topic on this very site).

If we don't change the fact we're wasting huge amounts of it on frivolous pursuits, then it doesn't matter where we get it.

[thehoodedsmack]

Fellows, I'm afraid this is one that shouldn't be ignored. Until the population gets over its fear of hydrogen, helium is the only other lighter-than-air gas chemically and economically suitable for air-freight once jet-fuel becomes too expensive. Airship revival. Yeeeeeeah, boy. Modacity Blimp Party 2020.

[Zeph]

You know, that very scarce resource that we can not produce artificially, that we waste on useless garbage like floating balloons?

I'm gonna file that under "Take care after world hunger is solved". You know, it's only the second most abundant resource in the universe and all. It's not like there's a shortage of it or anything. We'll have access to it long after we run out of natural fuels. The only difference is that the artificial price ceiling is going to be removed and it'll move into the price range of whatever the actual demand for it is. Keep in mind that if this video is real and actually recent the actual jobs contributing to supply are being hindered by the US dumping 100% of its reserves (the US dumping reserves of anything is not something it does lightly).

[thehoodedsmack]

Helium is actually INCREDIBLY rare on Earth when compared to the rest of the universe, Zeph. I wasn't being at all sarcastic in my last post. I've actually followed this for a while, because I love the hell out of airships, but yeah, it's completely possible we'll live to see the exhaustion of Earth's helium.

[n00b1n8R]

u caled helium H l0l
oh shit pw0nd :suicide:


Replace helium with another gas, preferably one derived from other sources? And that's only the largest reserve of helium in the world, there are others.
There are other reserves but I don't think you appreciate just how large the disparity is between the US reserve and the rest of the world's known sources.

If it comes to it we'll still be able to get helium from the atmosphere through fractional distillation (like we do argon) but it's incredibly energy inefficient compared to extraction from natural gas.


I'm gonna file that under "Take care after world hunger is solved".
You realise this is a much easier fix than world hunger right? Just stop selling at a fixed price.


You know, it's only the second most abundant resource in the universe and all. It's not like there's a shortage of it or anything. We'll have access to it long after we run out of natural fuels.

You're right, lets just go and extract it from the fucking Sun!

[Rainbow Dash]

You realise this is a much easier fix than world hunger right? Just stop selling at a fixed price.


We could solve world hunger just as easily, by say, allocating resources based on need, instead of based on who has the most of a fictional number :]

[CN3089]

I dunno I think we'll probably have some operational fusion power plants in 20 years I'm sure we can capture some of the helium produced vOv

[EX12693]

Except fusion power requires a batshit INSANE amount of fuel to sustain itself.

Also couldn't we re-capture all the helium in the upper atmosphere?

[Rentafence]

I dunno I think we'll probably have some operational fusion power plants in 20 years I'm sure we can capture some of the helium produced vOv

Internet spaceships is that way :gtfo:

[Amit]

Hydrogen is H. Helium is He.

[Bobblehob]

I heard somewhere that some people are looking into mining on the moon becuase its rich with helium (pretty sure I heard that on another topic on this very site).

The helium they are looking into on the moon is Helium 3 not regular Helium, its an isotope that can be used to fuel fusion reactions. It in all honesty could be the answer to the energy needs of the Earth.

[Rentafence]

The helium they are looking into on the moon is Helium 3 not regular Helium, its an isotope that can be used to fuel fusion reactions. It in all honesty could be the answer to the energy needs of the Earth.

Helium is helium bru.

[Bobblehob]

Helium is helium bru.

Actually no, it isn't, Helium 3 is an Isotope that is extremely rare here on earth. Its not the same as what is stored in Amarillo.

[Rentafence]

Actually no, it isn't, Helium 3 is an Isotope that is extremely rare here on earth. Its not the same as what is stored in Amarillo.

No shit its an isotope. It's still helium.

[thehoodedsmack]

And while we're at it, let's use diamonds like we would graphite! Carbon is carbon bru.

[Rentafence]

And while we're at it, let's use diamonds like we would graphite! Carbon is carbon bru.

That's a different in molecular structure though, not atomic. Diamond is carbon in a crystal lattice where as graphite is carbon in single atom thick planes suspended over each other.

I'm trying to start an argument on an internet forum here plz stop

[DEElekgolo]

Can't you see we're trying to argue?

[Bobblehob]

My point was that Helium 3 has nothing to do with this particular story, or this discussion because it isn't what is being sold and or wasted xP

[Rentafence]

My point was that Helium 3 has nothing to do with this particular story, or this discussion because it isn't what is being sold and or wasted xP

Same. I can still put helium 3 in my birthday balloon though and fuck you if you think its a waste

[TVTyrant]

And while we're at it, let's use diamonds like we would graphite! Carbon is carbon bru.
I'm glad someone other than me said this lol

[CN3089]

Internet spaceships is that way :gtfo:

man I just checked and ITER is still scheduled to come online in like 2025 so deal wiz it

[neuro]

My point was that Helium 3 has nothing to do with this particular story, or this discussion because it isn't what is being sold and or wasted xP

it has EVERYTHING to do with it, Helium is the BY-PRODUCT of He3 fusion.
mining helium3 on the moon, make fusionplants on earth, make helium in the process

[Zeph]

edit: dyslexia ftw.

[n00b1n8R]

Same. I can still put helium 3 in my birthday balloon though and fuck you if you think its a waste
I can think of better presents than a $100-$2000 balloon.

[Kornman00]

Hydrogen is H. Helium is He.
HeHeHe, that tickles

[FreedomFighter7]

I just thought of something, replace it with freon. Freon may cause damage to the Ozone and environment, but how many MRI's are there compared to the millions of old refrigerators which we have that use it? The impact would be insignificant. Any responsible hospital would dispose of the material safely anyhow, and since when does anyone throw out an MRI machine?

[DarkHalo003]

I just thought of something, replace it with freon. Freon may cause damage to the Ozone and environment, but how many MRI's are there compared to the millions of old refrigerators which we have that use it? The impact would be insignificant. Any responsible hospital would dispose of the material safely anyhow, and since when does anyone throw out an MRI machine?
This is a bad mentality to have, not to mention Freon could be more damaging than just what it does to the Ozone.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-freon.htm



Freon™ leaks are not an immediate risk to human health, except in cases where the coolant leaks out in large quantities. At room temperature, it often reaches a gaseous state, and inhaling the gas can lead to suffocation, because it displaces the oxygen (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-oxygen.htm) in the air.

[Rainbow Dash]

Hey guys we're running out of this resource because we used it on irresponsible bullshit (courtesy of capitalism).

Let's just use another resource that is kinda similar instead! (this is what will probably happen if we don't change our socio-economic paradigm)

What a wonderful system!

[TVTyrant]

Hey guys we're running out of this resource because we used it on irresponsible bullshit (courtesy of capitalism).
Yeah

Commies don't believe in balloons!

Obviously they are way fucking better!

Sorry, but that was the stupidest point you have ever made Sel lol.

[rossmum]

well if you think about it, it's not that they don't like balloons, it's that they don't have market quotas to fill or huge profits to make or what have you, whereas think how much helium goes to waste in the west where it's all about those things.

it's small comfort that it's dissipating into the atmosphere, but until someone figures out a reliable and feasible way of extracting it from the air in any meaningful quantities (lol good luck) that isn't any help at all

[Rainbow Dash]

@tvt

Either you're misinterpreting my point, or you're just outright stupid.

Helium is a limited resource, and we wasted a huge portion of it on party balloons and the like which serve a completely frivolous purpose. People are allowed to waste it on whatever the fuck they want because they can pay for it, and because of that system, a large portion of it is wasted on shit that doesn't benefit society in any way.

[TVTyrant]

@tvt

Either you're misinterpreting my point, or you're just outright stupid.

Helium is a limited resource, and we wasted a huge portion of it on party balloons and the like which serve a completely frivolous purpose. People are allowed to waste it on whatever the fuck they want because they can pay for it, and because of that system, a large portion of it is wasted on shit that doesn't benefit society in any way.
Yes, but its not like the Soviet Union and North Korea and Norway and Sweden and France don't like balloons.

I get what you're saying, and I have always liked command economy. Its efficient and powerful. But blaming private business owners for our helium problems is ridiculous.

[Zeph]

doesn't benefit society in any way.

someone has been watching a bit too much Star Trek TNG.

Crude Oil is a limited resource and it's used to trim the height of plants.
Granite is a limited resource and it's used to decorate the interior of peoples homes.
Coal is a limited resource and it's used to fill whatever gap is left in the market.
Uranium is a limited resource and it's lost as a fuel source to make bombs.
Food supplies are "renewable", but produced food has a very short shelf life. Enough food is thrown away in first world countries to make skinny african babies fatter than americans.

It's such a pitty that these limited resources can be wasted on such frivolous things simply because someone spent money on them.
Since when did society benefit from your freshly mowed lawn?
Since when did society benefit from your gorgeous kitchen countertops?
Since when did society benefit from coal liquification selling at market par?
Since when did society benefit from stockpiling bombs?
Since when did society benefit from the buffet?


HUUURF IM SOCIETY'S WHITE KNIGHT WE NEED TO STOP USING BALLOONS AND INSTEAD FOCUS ON REFRIGERATION!!!!

[Donut]

:saddowns: i like buffets...

[TVTyrant]

:saddowns: i like buffets...
Me too...

[CN3089]

Since when did society benefit from stockpiling bombs?

nuclear deterrent probably saved us from another world war so that's something

[TVTyrant]

nuclear deterrent probably saved us from another world war so that's something
Also the Greatest Generation essentially refusing to fight but whatevs.

[Zeph]

nuclear deterrent probably saved us from another world war so that's something

I would suggest it was advances in our submarine fleet and not a stockpile of bombs. ICBMs had this weird thing where they were vulnerable to interception crossing the ocean.

[Rainbow Dash]

Crude Oil is a limited resource and it's used to trim the height of plants.
Granite is a limited resource and it's used to decorate the interior of peoples homes.
Coal is a limited resource and it's used to fill whatever gap is left in the market.


This is all irrelevant in comparison, as there are any number of alternative resources which could be used to serve the same purposes. There is no alternative for helium.

I'd also like to point out that our use of oil based products in agriculture has destroyed huge amounts of arable land.



Food supplies are "renewable", but produced food has a very short shelf life. Enough food is thrown away in first world countries to make skinny african babies fatter than americans.

Thank you for furthering my point?



Since when did society benefit from your freshly mowed lawn?


Again, there are countless ways other means of solving this issue. Hand powered lawn mowers, electricity from other sources, such as solar, etc.



Since when did society benefit from your gorgeous kitchen countertops?


I seriously doubt that society would come grinding to a halt if we used a different material for our counter tops.



Since when did society benefit from coal liquification selling at market par?


If you consider pollution beneficial for society, then they've been benefiting from it for the last century and some.


The electric sector is the largest source of industrial (stack) emissions of toxic air pollution in the United States. In 2009, coal- and oil-fired power plants accounted for nearly 50 percent of all reported toxic pollution from industrial sources. The next largest sector, chemical processing and manufacturing, emitted less than one third of the electric sector’s total. Power plants are the leading source of industrial toxic air pollution in 28 states and the District of Columbia.

Exposure to toxic pollution from power plants, including hydrochloric acid, mercury, and other metals, is known or
believed to contribute to or exacerbate a wide variety of health conditions, including one or more of the following:

􀁠 Asthma and other respiratory ailments,
􀁠 Developmental disorders,
􀁠 Neurological damage,
􀁠 Birth defects,
􀁠 Cancer, and
􀁠 Premature mortality.

This report analyzes publicly available data from Environmental Protection Agency’s Toxics Release Inventory (TRI).
Facilities that release significant quantities of a wide variety of toxic chemicals must report these releases, including
industrial air emissions, to TRI annually. These self-reported data reveal that power plants are largely responsible for
contaminating our air with toxic chemicals.



Since when did society benefit from stockpiling bombs?


:ugh:



Since when did society benefit from the buffet?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States



HUUURF IM SOCIETY'S WHITE KNIGHT WE NEED TO STOP USING BALLOONS AND INSTEAD FOCUS ON REFRIGERATION!!!!

If you needed an MRI scan tomorrow zeph, and they couldn't do it because they were out of helium, because it was allocated instead to some wasteful purpose, how would you feel?

Please, come up with a serious fucking argument, why we should spend resources which could be used on machines that save lives, on helium, fucking, balloons.

[ICEE]

Here's what we do gentleman: Mine. Stars.


But seriously, that sucks. I think im with Zeph on this one. We waste tons of natural resources on relatively pointless things. I live in an area of california that should for all natural purposes be a desert. However, people insist on having green lawn and shit. The state is hemmorhaging money at an alarming rate (not just because of water shit, but thats a rant for another day) importing water for this.

[Rainbow Dash]

In fact, while you're at it, why don't you come up with an argument for why we should go and waste all our limited resources on anything that serves no worthwhile purpose, and potentially prevents or disrupts access to those resources for people who have a need of them, or might have a need for them in the future.

[TVTyrant]

Here's what we do gentleman: Mine. Stars.


But seriously, that sucks. I think im with Zeph on this one. We waste tons of natural resources on relatively pointless things. I live in an area of california that should for all natural purposes be a desert. However, people insist on having green lawn and shit. The state is hemmorhaging money at an alarming rate (not just because of water shit, but thats a rant for another day) importing water for this.
Move to Oregon

You'll be tired of the water before long~

[TVTyrant]

In fact, while you're at it, why don't you come up with an argument for why we should go and waste all our limited resources on anything that serves no worthwhile purpose, and potentially prevents or disrupts access to those resources for people who have a need of them, or might have a need for them in the future.
Just because you don't have a purpose for it doesn't mean it has no purpose.

[Rainbow Dash]

Just because you don't have a purpose for it doesn't mean it has no purpose.

That's not what I said.

[TVTyrant]

That's not what I said.
Yeah, I just felt like being part of the moment

[DarkHalo003]

Geothermal and Electricity all of the way.

[FreedomFighter7]

This is a bad mentality to have, not to mention Freon could be more damaging than just what it does to the Ozone.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-freon.htm

Freon™ leaks are not an immediate risk to human health, except in cases where the coolant leaks out in large quantities. At room temperature, it often reaches a gaseous state, and inhaling the gas can lead to suffocation, because it displaces the oxygen (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-oxygen.htm) in the air.

That's a great point, I don't know what I was thinking.



Helium is a limited resource, and we wasted a huge portion of it on party balloons and the like which serve a completely frivolous purpose. People are allowed to waste it on whatever the fuck they want because they can pay for it, and because of that system, a large portion of it is wasted on shit that doesn't benefit society in any way.


I think that's his argument right there. This isn't really about helium or the environment, and I don't know much about Rainbow Dash's beliefs, but it seems here this is about your resource based economy.

Why can't we just create a new safer chemical which cools MRI machines? If we can create thousands of types of plastics, cleaning products, drugs, food additives with chemistry, why can't we invent a safer alternative to freon which replaces helium? I admit it, I don't know much about chemistry, but my assumption is chemists can create almost anything to suit a purpose, if its needed. From what I do know, chemistry is about an (rough estimate) 140 yr old science, I believe its understood well enough for this. Ever since carbon was discovered to have four possible bonding points (1880 I think?), chemistry exploded in its usage. I just remember that from a TV doc about chemistry.

[DarkHalo003]

Because that process is INCREDIBLY expensive and entities will lose money if they invest in it (versus their current setup which gives them much more money). In other words, greed is holding back the advancement of the human race.

[Rainbow Dash]

I think that's his argument right there. This isn't really about helium or the environment, and I don't know much about Rainbow Dash's beliefs, but it seems here this is about your resource based economy.

It's not really specific to an RBE system, that's just suggesting that an economy should economize. (ie: not waste stuff for no reason)



Why can't we just create a new safer chemical which cools MRI machines?

We could, but at that point we might as well just figure out how to create helium artificially. Though it won't happen in this economic paradigm. Under Capitalism, the scarcer a resource is, the more that can be charged for it (basic supply and demand guys), and the greater a profit there is to make selling it. Then we get to see the same thing that's happened so many times before, with renewable energies, and cancer research, where they can't get off the ground, because the established people and corporations don't want anything that will threaten their bottom line.

[Zeph]

If you needed an MRI scan tomorrow zeph, and they couldn't do it because they were out of helium, because it was allocated instead to some wasteful purpose, how would you feel?

Please, come up with a serious fucking argument, why we should spend resources which could be used on machines that save lives, on helium, fucking, balloons.

Did you completely miss the part about why He is used in MRI machines? It's a coolant. Funny thing about using helium as a coolant: something has to chill it. Funny thing about other noble gasses: they can be chilled into liquids as well. Funnier thing about more reactive gasses: they, too, can be chilled into liquids. Even if it's not a liquid cooling system, thanks to thermodynamics any compressed air could be used to cool the things (OH NOES ITS GONNA BE LOUDER).

It's not a consumed good upon use.

[Rainbow Dash]

You're not addressing the actual argument.

[DarkHalo003]

It's not really specific to an RBE system, that's just suggesting that an economy should economize. (ie: not waste stuff for no reason)



We could, but at that point we might as well just figure out how to create helium artificially. Though it won't happen in this economic paradigm. Under Capitalism, the scarcer a resource is, the more that can be charged for it (basic supply and demand guys), and the greater a profit there is to make selling it. Then we get to see the same thing that's happened so many times before, with renewable energies, and cancer research, where they can't get off the ground, because the established people and corporations don't want anything that will threaten their bottom line.
Regardless, there's a problem with important resources when certain entities specifically control them. Until people are held at a standard where resources aren't used as leverage to put someone else into submission, humanity's near future is considerably dim.

[Rainbow Dash]

who are you and what have you done with darkhalo

[DarkHalo003]

who are you and what have you done with darkhalo
Not sure if good or bad.

[CN3089]

We should switch to a pony-based economy

[Timo]

We should switch to a pony-based economy

I for one welcome our new brony overlords.

[EX12693]

I for one welcome our new brony overlords.I think he was referring to Vermin supreme.

But yes.

[TVTyrant]

Bronies wouldnt be so bad if they werent such assholes about it

[EX12693]

Bronies wouldnt be so bad if they werent such assholes about itIn the fandom, the obnoxious ones are refered to as Brownies.
They can go mine helium-3 on the moon for all I care.

[TVTyrant]

In the fandom, the obnoxious ones are refered to as Brownies.
They can go mine helium-3 on the moon for all I care.
rofl

And just to put it out there, I have seen the first 5 episodes of the show

I didn't like it, which puts me at odds with thousands of other interneters sometimes.

[paladin]

Why does everyone around here hate capitalism?

[=sw=warlord]

Why does everyone hate Socialism?

[DarkHalo003]

Why do neither work competently?

[TVTyrant]

libertarian style capitalism is the only way to truly be "free"

at the same time, socialism is the only way to have an equitable society that works for the people

its really quite a conundrum because some people expect both at once.

[DarkHalo003]

Even then, both of those options are theoretical systems that have never worked as intended or have the desired effects. Socialism is about creating an economically and socially equal society. No one country in this world has that. The idea of complete equality in the way of economics is also almost impossible in today's world because some people tend to spend their money wiser or more effectively than others thus giving them more cash, but if you put a controlling force like a government to prevent that, then you are violating their human rights, not to mention those in the government would have power over those not in the gov't (which is currently one of the biggest problems Socialism faces today). There's also the fact that socialism can be very exploitable since the gov't pays for nearly everything; it's not that people don't have to work as hard to make a living, but rather that people don't work enough or at all to be productive since stuff is being payed for them. Ironically, this is what happens in the U.S. for a portion of the population as a result of gov't payed Social Benefits. It is also why a lot of the U.S. population detests socialism. From my understanding, however, Socialism is working decently in Australia and Sweden/Switzerland.

Capitalism is a problem for many because it's a rusty double-edged sword: if you work hard to the standards of your employment/industry you'll do well in life, but if you don't/can't work to those standards you're screwed. It's rusty because there are times when the sword becomes damaged as a result of maltreatment, which causes everyone to suffer, even those who are excelling, not to mention how it obliterates though who weren't excelling before. Capitalism is also reaching a point of stagnation as technological advancements are actually being limited as a result of the considerable trough in the economy and also because corporations/industries running the system are doing well for themselves and don't need to change.

However, the standard of living in Capitalism is higher than Socialism for most people and it is plausible to be the Middle Class where you're not hated nor are worried about your next meal. Socialism flails when the economy does or when disasters occur because it becomes difficult to keep people in a good standard of living. Examples of this can be seen throughout history. Still, both systems are very flawed and abused regularly by the government, so ultimately it comes down to those with control over the state/country versus the actually system. Both have the potential to be good, but exploitation has and will constantly ruin them both.

[Roostervier]

Why does everyone hate fascism?

[Patrickssj6]

Why is no one hating on Helium?

[DarkHalo003]

Helium sucks. Radon is SOOOOOO much better.

[rossmum]

for what it's worth, the perceived lack of output in a socialist society is not really as much of a thing as its opponents make out. america is full of bludgers who sap benefits and do nothing because america's social welfare system is broken, these people are usually poorly educated, and there is no real incentive for them to get to work. here you more or less have to be in study, in work, looking for work (legitimately looking, not just saying you are) or disabled/retired/otherwise unable to work before you are given any consequential amount of money. in the soviet union, it was actually illegal to not be doing something useful with yourself. the other thing the soviets did was make-work programs, the example i'm most familiar with being the rifle refurbishment processes they ran postwar. people who had no useful skills and could not or would not continue their education were able to learn a trade by helping to refurbish and store weapons for the military, then go back afterwards and join a skilled industry.

you can't have socialism and expect it to work if you don't implement it properly, and while forcing people to be in study or work is removing some of their freedom, it benefits them in the long run, it benefits society as a whole, and it's just generally good practice because each progressing generation will be less and less likely to slack off. coupled with education focusing on how it is important to work together for the benefit of all, rather than typical western education of "fuck you, got mine", the populace of a socialist nation can be quite productive and motivated. it also helps reduce depression, because people feel they have a purpose in their life, and feel confident in their abilities. in the west, where job security is a big thing and it can be very difficult to find work, there are some pretty serious issues with mental health which tend to go unnoticed.

[EX12693]

If you want to see a communism/socialism working, look in a mirror. Or at a tree. Or any living organism.
Capitalism is.... unnatural. :P

Also why cant we recapture all the helium in the upper atmosphere?

[=sw=warlord]

Also why cant we recapture all the helium in the upper atmosphere?
Our atmosphere is slowly being lost in space.
Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

[n00b1n8R]

Can we talk about helium in this thread and all the (anti)reds can make their own thread?

[TVTyrant]

If you want to see a communism/socialism working, look in a mirror. Or at a tree. Or any living organism.
Capitalism is.... unnatural. :P

wat

you mean wolves don't eat stuff slower and weaker than them?

[Cortexian]

wat

you mean wolves don't eat stuff slower and weaker than them?
Wolves eat Elk all the time. Elk are larger, faster, and stronger. The only reason Wolves win is because they are pack animals that focus together to bring down one target meal.

This thread is now about Wolves, since it's gone in all the other directions already.

[TVTyrant]

Wolves eat Elk all the time. Elk are larger, faster, and stronger. The only reason Wolves win is because they are pack animals that focus together to bring down one target meal.

This thread is now about Wolves, since it's gone in all the other directions already.
They also eat a diet that subsists largely of grouse, rabbits, mice, and other small animals

They have devastated the Idaho Mule Deer population, and no one will say a deer is stronger than a wolf, especially since the wolves here in the NW US are getting huge.

[rossmum]

recapturing helium from the upper atmosphere? not with current tech. the upper atmosphere is hella far up and unless you build a tower that reaches to the verge of space, you're not going to be able to get to it. once you suck it into the tower, you then have to either can it there and drop it down a vacuum tube or pump it, since it will naturally want to go up. that alone, never mind the tower and the necessary engineering miracles to make it not fall over just under the earth's own subtle motions - let alone wind, corrosion that will invariably form in hard-to-reach places, earthquakes, etc. - would cost such a retarded amount i severely doubt it would happen in the world we have. maybe if everyone was in some kind of socialist paradise and labour and resources were more or less not an issue we could see some progress, but not while the world is assembled of hundreds of nations with divergent values, aims, and means.

you have to remember, even our existing skyscrapers have to be able to sway with the wind to avoid collapse; the slightest, impercptible motions on the surface will translate to a massive, drunken swing possibly hundreds or thousands of metres in size at that kind of altitude.

the only way we're going to see any more helium, short of finding another reserve to tap off, is stable nuclear fusion. there has been good progress made in that field, but it's still not a definite thing that fusion will take over helium production before we run out.

helium is only the beginning. things we take for granted now will, given time, run out. most of them cannot be synthesised currently, and may not be by the time they run out, either. offworld mining is a pipe dream and even if it happens, a band-aid solution at best. we need to get better at reusing what we have, using alternatives where we can, and generally worrying less about profit margins and more about preserving our planet.

[Rainbow Dash]

Why does everyone around here hate capitalism?

It's not that people hate it, it's that it's purpose has long been fulfilled, and we're still using it despite the incredibly negative results it's creating.


libertarian style capitalism is the only way to truly be "free"

People will never be free in Capitalism. Freedom in Capitalism is directly proportional to the individual's purchasing power.

[Rainbow Dash]

wat

you mean wolves don't eat stuff slower and weaker than them?

Imagine your body decided to start using free market capitalism as it's mode of functioning. You'd be dead within a day.

[TVTyrant]

People will never be free in Capitalism. Freedom in Capitalism is directly proportional to the individual's purchasing power.
Thats what freedom is though. You aren't held by any kind of taxes, regulations about your life style, laws about personal expression, etc. But in return you have to play the unfair game that is capitalism. Socialism restricts many of these freedoms in return for services provided by the government.

I'm not talking about the theory of these things, btw. I'm talking about what has happened in the past and what will happen in the future.

[TVTyrant]

Imagine your body decided to start using free market capitalism as it's mode of functioning. You'd be dead within a day.
My body isn't a government for one, and for two its got more in common with a bear than a wolf. I eat berries and salmon, and shit leaves me alone until mating season. Try to politicize that.

[DarkHalo003]

The point is either way our current technology for actually being productive with our planet is completely pitiful.

[EX12693]

And will stay so because its more profitable.

[neuro]

what the fuck does profitable even mean nigga.

profitable how? for who? at the cost of what?

step 1: consume and waste every resource on the earth.
step 2: PROFIT!
step 3: live on a dead planet because people wanted IMAGINARY NUMBERS

[Rainbow Dash]

Profitable means making more off something than you put in, and then people act surprised when a system with profit as the major incentive starts collapsing because it's getting harder and harder to make more than you put in, since you can't make more than you put in since the more doesn't fucking exist.

[TVTyrant]

Profitable means making more off something than you put in, and then people act surprised when a system with profit as the major incentive starts collapsing because it's getting harder and harder to make more than you put in, since you can't make more than you put in since the more doesn't fucking exist.
A well thought out point by Sel. Would +rep but you know...

[rossmum]

Thats what freedom is though. You aren't held by any kind of taxes, regulations about your life style, laws about personal expression, etc. But in return you have to play the unfair game that is capitalism. Socialism restricts many of these freedoms in return for services provided by the government.

I'm not talking about the theory of these things, btw. I'm talking about what has happened in the past and what will happen in the future.
that ain't freedom, bud

people need to stop kidding themselves that they will have freedom under anything other than their own despotic rule over a little kingdom after society all goes to shit and things go back to tribal times (me & mine, etc). you won't. you won't be completely free under socialism, because the system wouldn't work. you'll never be free under capitalism, because unless you are the top of the pile, you are being shit on by everyone above you and owe massive debts you spend your entire life working to pay off, making the guy up the top richer.

as much as i don't want to completely derail this thread, it is at least somewhat related.

imagine you're poor, really poor. below the poverty line. you either collect pitiful welfare handouts, or you work minimum wage and struggle to keep your head above water because you went and had five kids and bought a house and a car like you thought you were supposed to, enslaving yourself to a life of debt. you will never get anywhere, because you can barely break even. by the time you pay off your debts with interest you may as well be dead. you have little hope of winning any kind of legal battle against anyone or anything, you have no real hope of furthering your education, and you are limited by both this and your social status to the shittiest of low-paying jobs. you're not free at all.

now we'll imagine you're middle class. you do the same things, and find yourself saddled with a mortgage to pay off as well as your car. you pay them off faster, because you have a better job, but as you get older your job security gets worse and worse and you know that being fired or made redundant is it for you. nobody wants to hire an old guy, even with a wealth of experience. they want young people they can pay less to do more. the goalposts are moved as you age, and so your pension doesn't kick in until years after it would have for your parents. you work for longer. by the time retirement comes, you are pushing seventy and may have only a few years left, or you may have a few decades left. you are, however, not in your prime any longer and so pity help you if you want to do anything other than sit on the couch watching tv or going on a camper van trip. you have worked all your life just for this, but you have helped make the guy at the top of the chain several million richer.

now imagine you're at the top of the chain. you make sweeping decisions but do little actual work, most of it having been palmed off upon your underlings. you rake in cash from the company while simultaneously firing people because 'running costs are too high in this economy'. you own a mansion and a rolls-royce or five, a private jet, and take holidays whenever you want, flying first class all the way. you can pay for things straight up; no debts, nothing owed. unless you get truly insane with your spending, there is little chance money will ever be a worry for you. you are high society and your pockets bulge with money, you get what you want when you want. people bend over backwards to please you. local and state governments throw money down the toilet just to hold fancy events that attract people like you.

tell me which of them is truly free. i can only see one.

we westerners are brainwashed from day one. look at tv. you see shows where happy families live in nice houses with nice cars and work in an office. schoolkids tell you they want to be a fireman or a pilot or what have you, never a garbage man or a railway worker or steel worker. the education system is geared towards reinforcing that CAPITALISM GOOD, SOCIALISM BAD and teaching people that inequality is necessary. it isn't. media makes us think we are entitled to a house, a car, a hot wife, and a happy life with our family, and we will all get them if we work hard enough to satisfy some arbitrary standard, which is a load of absolute shit.

our education, and social pressures as a whole, see us buy a house. why? oh, because we need somewhere to live. do we need to own it? really? it sees us buy a car. i'll grant this, a car is basically required unless you live in the heart of a major city. but does it have to be a new car? no, old ones work just as well if you find a good one. do you have to have a hot wife and kids? i dunno, do you want a hot wife or one you can actually live with? for that matter, do you need marriage at all? no, you fucking don't. it's unnecessary and a massive expense you may have to repeat later. kids? think about it. you don't need them, but they're nice to have. do they need to go to a private school? fuck no, they fill their heads with shit and expose them to horrible snobby rich kids and all the while it's costing you.

end of the day, it falls on good parents to undo the brainwashing their kids get, because without some kind of help they, too, will become good little worker-drones who indebt themselves in order to make the boss man richer and allow him to plunder everyone's resources just a little more.

the only good kind of work is where you work towards the good of the people, not the individual. if there are even any state-owned things left, find one of them to work at.

[TVTyrant]

That is exactly freedom. Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want. The only way that can be achieved is a wide open system capitalist system. The rich will always have the advantage, no matter what the system. There will always be those who exploit the system. So you can fight it in two ways. One is to adjust the system, to socialize it and make it more adapted to meeting people's needs. The other is to bury your head in the sand and let it happen, which is what Ron Paul and the libertarians want to do.

Just because things cost money doesn't mean that you aren't free. Nothing in life has ever been free, not even life itself. To exist you must consume. To be born, there must be blood. I like an adapted system better than a truly free system. I've said it before that Qatar has the right idea with its socialized monarchy. But don't lie to yourself believing that taxation and massive government, cameras on every corner, school systems that push people into jobs based on test scores, and restricting gun rights is freedom.

I agree with what you're saying btw. True freedom is no longer possible. That's why I like the idea of socialism. But claiming that what the libertarians propose isn't more free is bullshit. Its the results of their ideas that are scary, but their ideas are intelligent and noble. If everyone was a good person, socialism wouldn't be necessary. But they're not, so we must restrict our freedoms to make society more equitable.

[TVTyrant]

On what you call brainwashing:

Indoctrination is what every source of information everywhere is trying to do. Its trying to convince you of something. You've been indoctrinated into the idea that the West is this great evil entity. It might be, but I have no doubts that China wants the same damn thing. Its not the west, its life. Ivy tries to overgrow and choke out the whole forest. It doesn't just attack one tree. We are just getting to the point where we have enough resources to even attempt at rectifying this scenario, where we are trying to become stewards rather than consumers.

BTW I work for the state as a maintenance person, and am working to become a teacher. I agree that more people should look for state jobs.

[Rainbow Dash]

Indoctrination is what every source of information everywhere is trying to do. Its trying to convince you of something.

nope


Indoctrination is the process of inculcating (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inculcate) ideas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea), attitudes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_(psychology)), cognitive strategies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognition) or a professional methodology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodology) (see doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine)).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination#cite_note-0) It is often distinguished from education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education) by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking) the doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) they have learned

[rossmum]

That is exactly freedom. Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want.
it's not. poor people can't take time off because they can't afford it. middle class people can't tell their boss to fuck themselves because they put their status in jeopardy and are at risk of becoming poor. rich people can never show up to work and get away with murder (quite literally in several cases). seems to me only one group here can do what they want, when they want.


The only way that can be achieved is a wide open system capitalist system. The rich will always have the advantage, no matter what the system. There will always be those who exploit the system. So you can fight it in two ways. One is to adjust the system, to socialize it and make it more adapted to meeting people's needs. The other is to bury your head in the sand and let it happen, which is what Ron Paul and the libertarians want to do.
except socialised capitalism is still pretty poor. australia has gone to shit, with the government selling everything off and the class divides growing. australia, in fact, is now home to the richest woman in the world, who has enough personal wealth to save greece's economy and still have tons left over to do good for the rest of the world. guarantee you she won't do either of those things, and instead will use that money to continue fucking everyone for a profit. the mining companies are throwing their weight in with the hard right here and that is the last fucking thing anybody needs. of course, when the liberals (remember, australian politics are backwards) do come into power, they will rip the guts out of the few good things left in this country and the only winners will be the assholes who backed them in the first place, since they're too rich to be touched.

as long as you have even an ounce of capitalism going on, you are going to have one part of your population actively fucking the other, and the capitalist system trying to preserve itself through 'educating'. our education system, our universities, everything. they're all geared towards preserving the status quo.


Just because things cost money doesn't mean that you aren't free. Nothing in life has ever been free, not even life itself. To exist you must consume. To be born, there must be blood. I like an adapted system better than a truly free system. I've said it before that Qatar has the right idea with its socialized monarchy. But don't lie to yourself believing that taxation and massive government, cameras on every corner, school systems that push people into jobs based on test scores, and restricting gun rights is freedom.
this is a really bad argument because you know damn well how i feel about surveillance and gun control, namely both of them are do-nothing loads of bullshit used by shitty, incompetent governments to placate the majority of the population who have been conditioned into being too fucking stupid to know otherwise. socialism does not necessarily mean guns have to be banned and cameras have to be everywhere and assuming that is ridiculous.

as for consuming, you're right; but think how much shit people actually need versus what they indebt themselves to have. poor people suffer especially here because they buy tons and tons of shit they don't need and can't pay for it. you don't need the latest model car, you don't need a 6' tv, you don't need a huge house. people buy shit because they think they have to, not because they actually have to. that isn't freedom, that is generations of conditioning.


I agree with what you're saying btw. True freedom is no longer possible. That's why I like the idea of socialism. But claiming that what the libertarians propose isn't more free is bullshit. Its the results of their ideas that are scary, but their ideas are intelligent and noble. If everyone was a good person, socialism wouldn't be necessary. But they're not, so we must restrict our freedoms to make society more equitable.
libertarian ideals might well be noble in their intent, but the last thing i would call them is intelligent. if they were truly intelligent they would realise within five seconds that their proposals merely pander to those who already have while allowing them to utterly fuck the have-nots even worse than they do already. for what it's worth i am very liberal in the true sense of the word, i don't like banning things outright and think that there is a better solution to almost everything, but as far as economics go the last thing i would ever wish to see on this earth is laxing of the already weak regulations imposed on largely untouchable corporations and their heads.


On what you call brainwashing:

Indoctrination is what every source of information everywhere is trying to do. Its trying to convince you of something. You've been indoctrinated into the idea that the West is this great evil entity. It might be, but I have no doubts that China wants the same damn thing. Its not the west, its life. Ivy tries to overgrow and choke out the whole forest. It doesn't just attack one tree. We are just getting to the point where we have enough resources to even attempt at rectifying this scenario, where we are trying to become stewards rather than consumers.
china is a shitty excuse for socialism and is little more than a police state born out of a personality cult. of course, that didn't stop them from eventually embracing capitalism (but only for those who are less equal than others) and nor did it stop america from supporting the shit out of them after the sino-soviet split when china was always going to be a bigger threat to the west's cozy lifestyle. you make your bed, you sleep in it.

the point i was making is that western society is out to preserve western society, capitalism and all. this is why you are taught according to a certain syllabus in school. this is why you have to study certain topics whether you like it or not. your own country will try and big-note itself while making little or no reference to anyone else. this is why many americans believe they won ww1 and ww2 and saved everyone, why many british assume the americans were useless and did nothing, and why a lot of germans think their soldiers were supermen. truly intelligent people do their own research, but the aim of schooling is not to make you intelligent, or to help bring your natural intelligence out, its aim is to integrate you into that country's society and fuck everybody else.


BTW I work for the state as a maintenance person, and am working to become a teacher. I agree that more people should look for state jobs.
good on you. if only more people shared that principle, there would be a lot less corporate power and a lot less wrong with our world.

[TVTyrant]

Again, I agree with what you're saying as far as the ideas behind it, I just don't agree with the way you are choosing to define things. I don't like the current system any better than either of you. But I am willing to concede to it in some ways, and I'm going to work my hardest to succeed in it. Its a cop out to say "Well the system sucks so I'm not going to be part of it."

[rossmum]

you don't have to be a part of it, though. you don't have to buy into all the crap that people think is necessary, like owning your own home, owning your own car, getting married, and so on. you don't have to work for a corporate entity. you can avoid at least doing those until something better comes along.

[neuro]

which is what i intend to do.

i'm working for a company a good friend of me set up, so i'm only tied to him paying me at the moment.
i'm saving up for building a house in the south of france, so i won't owe anybody a damn thing, and can grow my own fucking food.

also, you fucks are welcome to come hang out with me and my castle of win

also selentic is especially invited, because that fucker makes great bread.

[Bodzilla]

should i screen cap this post, because that sounds like a fabulous idea.

[Cortexian]

Gonna lock this if we don't get back on the topic of wolves soon.

[DarkHalo003]

Gonna lock this if we don't get back on the topic of wolves soon.
You're still a mod?

[TVTyrant]

Gonna lock this if we don't get back on the topic of wolves soon.

COMMENCING DUMP

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/005/cache/grey-wolf_565_600x450.jpg

http://www.wolfweb.com/secureimages1/augw1.jpg

http://www.forkparty.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/265.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JTllXkmcGu0/TTtvSlxMtzI/AAAAAAAAAD0/3OT7nbemxA0/s1600/yellowstone-wolves.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uzVZA7KHnGA/SYjnpaA0QqI/AAAAAAAAAgE/QKSJnHivzYo/s400/Snarling_Wolf_Montana-(1024x768).jpg

http://howlingforjustice.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/wolf-pup-defenders.jpg

[Tnnaas]

The first and last one were cute.

The second one looked like your average "three white guys and a black guy" drinking group.