Utah is about to end homelessness by giving people homes.

[Bodzilla]

http://www.nationofchange.org/utah-ending-homelessness-giving-people-homes-1390056183

It turns out it's more expensive to incarcerate them, so instead they just gave them homes and a social worker to help them get their life back together.
very surprised this happened in utah of all places. Good going duders

[Dwood]

Whoa can't believe i missed this, and it's where i live... Interesting. The thing is though, with Utah, we're in a financial situation to do something about it on a large scale. Other states (not merely conservative) just let them rot or let the charities help them, which works more often we give credit for, but not enough.. The article also mentions the homeless problem in Hawaii which i've seen first-hand from living there. I kid you not, people who've lost everything buy one-way tickets to hawaii, and just stay there to live. There's sooo many places the homeless are in hawaii. Then, a tourist stops by them, drops a $20 bill (y'all) and moves on. They get enough money from tourists that they accumulate a surprising amount of stuff.

The worst part about hawaii, however, is that hawaii does not have nearly enough income (or space) to do anything on the scale of Utah. They've got bigger, more general problems to deal with.

[Bodzilla]

not doing something costs you more money. hth

[TVTyrant]

Utah is actually a really nice state

I feel like foreigners don't really understand Mormonism. They're incredibly nice people, who really aren't pushy about religion and are very charitable.

They don't even believe in hell guys. Come on.

[Dwood]

Thanks, tyrant. now to convince rossmum that. :P

[Bodzilla]

do you support gay rights?
do you believe in climate change and that the age of the earth is as old as scientists propose it is?

Harmless my fucking ass.

[Donut]

Nobody said they were harmless. Tyrant's just saying they're generally nice people who don't let their religion get in the way of being nice. And they're not lynching gay people in the streets or anything, so that's a start.

[Bodzilla]

holding back the progression of society towards a better future because of hocus pocus isn't something i can support, regardless of the smile that adorns the facade.

[Dwood]

do you support gay rights?
do you believe in climate change and that the age of the earth is as old as scientists propose it is?

Harmless my fucking ass.

I dont want to turn the thread into a debate, but want to point you to some things:
About the mormons and gays: http://mormonsandgays.org/

Age of the earth: Mormons believe that God didn't exactly just say "let the earth be" and *poof* it was there in an arbitrary period of time. (not exactly new-earth creationists but not exactly evolutionists. this is a doctrine we've held since Joseph Smith's time (roughly the 1840s)

And as to climate change, that's really a political thing the church itself does not tell the members one way or another, that's a personal view.

I don't know why i'm responding because you're intolerant of all religions in general it would seem, but we at least accept there's good in people with opposing views.

[Bodzilla]

my point isn't that these people are evil to the core. it's just their deluded ideologies based on nonesense is harmful for the progression of our species. It doesnt matter if they're nice people or bad people, that point is unchanged.


The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is.
Wow must be great being gay in the mormon church, your only a dirty sinner if you do something biologically programmed into you which is beyond your control, thats found literally in all of nature.

[Bodzilla]

just because some loonies believe that 1+1 = pineapple doesn't mean we should respect their opposing point of view.

because they're loonies, they're dumb, conditioned, ignorant, brainwashed, indoctrinated loonies.

[TVTyrant]

do you support gay rights?
do you believe in climate change and that the age of the earth is as old as scientists propose it is?

Harmless my fucking ass.
What harm do they cause, specifically? What damage do they do to you? Do they effect your way of life by supporting equal marriage (state court decision that would have allowed for gay marriage and polygamy, currently stuck on the national level), or by wanting to house the homeless? Do Mormons make it so you can't raise a family? Have they somehow accosted you in a way that means you can't have children anymore? Have the people of Utah caused you to lose your job in Australia?

Sorry, but you sound exactly like the anti-marriage equality people.

[Bodzilla]

because they delay the progression of mankind by holding onto fairy tales and nonesense.
It facilitates indoctrination.

look no further then this charming young man, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs
And tell me that religion has a place in the modern world. where the answers it provides and being constantly being proved wrong.

It
Holds
Us
Back.

[Donut]

That's kind of what I was touching on before. This militant "Fuck these people" approach to criticizing religion does push a point that needs to be pushed, but its aggression undermines its own message.

I can see what you mean by them being harmful, the harm being that they're perpetuating a mindset. Acting on homosexuality is a sin, etc... That shit really is holding us back. I understand being fed up and angry about it, but I can't quite bring myself to be that aggressive with people who passively believe it. Religious or not, they have positive impacts on society too.

In all of my discussions with religious people (including the one that caused me to stop being religious), respectful open discussion has always been orders of magnitude more effective than anger.

[TVTyrant]

Warren Jeffs is part of a denomination that's not affiliated with the church that Mitt Romney (terrible example, I know) and many of my friends follow. Crazies gonna crazy dude.

There are lots of things in western society that hold us back. Desegregation (statistically) has held us back. Capitalism has held us back. Prejudice among medical professionals. The elimination of slavery.

You know what didn't hold us back? Nazism. The foundations of the majority of rocket science, modern communications, engineering, jet engines, navigation systems, all were developed by the Nazis. They pumped funding into massive projects, all for the furthering of the Human (aka Aryan since they believed they were the only true people) race. Hitler turned the worst western economy in the world into the third best over three years. His economic programs saved millions. Research he funded in holocaust camps invented ideas like pain threshholds that we use today as measuring sticks to save people's lives. For all intents and purposes, the Nazis did more work to "progress" humanity than any other group in the last hundred years. They hated everything you've just described, and yet the fulfilled all your little requirements.

But I guess that a bunch of people who want to house the homeless are more harmful than the Nazis, huh? Because they believe in three heavens and hate religious exclusivity and the concept of hell. Guess they're all bigots though, since they think gayness is something that happens because of pornography or because they were abused as children.

Progress isn't everything. Sometimes a belief in humanity or in an objective goodness can go a long way. Sorry that doesn't fit your limited mindset though.

[TVTyrant]

That's kind of what I was touching on before. This militant "Fuck these people" approach to criticizing religion does push a point that needs to be pushed, but its aggression undermines its own message.

I can see what you mean by them being harmful, the harm being that they're perpetuating a mindset. Acting on homosexuality is a sin, etc... That shit really is holding us back. I understand being fed up and angry about it, but I can't quite bring myself to be that aggressive with people who passively believe it. Religious or not, they have positive impacts on society too.

In all of my discussions with religious people (including the one that caused me to stop being religious), respectful open discussion has always been orders of magnitude more effective than anger.
If you can't communicate your feelings with a certain amount of tact, then your message becomes distorted, immature, and thus worthless.

[Bodzilla]

That's kind of what I was touching on before. This militant "Fuck these people" approach to criticizing religion does push a point that needs to be pushed, but its aggression undermines its own message.

I can see what you mean by them being harmful, the harm being that they're perpetuating a mindset. Acting on homosexuality is a sin, etc... That shit really is holding us back. I understand being fed up and angry about it, but I can't quite bring myself to be that aggressive with people who passively believe it. Religious or not, they have positive impacts on society too.

In all of my discussions with religious people (including the one that caused me to stop being religious), respectful open discussion has always been orders of magnitude more effective than anger.
Derision is the only thing these "ideology's" deserve. For century's we've engaged in discreet neutral language to sate religious peoples desire to be seen as a credible or alternative version of reality.

Pro tip: they not.

They're laughable, inconsistent racist, sexist dogma, which has no realm what so ever in the modern world.

i'm not going to give them a platform thats on equal terms with science for the sake of "equality" or a "different perspective" because their opinions and ideas are not equal in anyway shape or form because they dont have any fucking evidence to support their fairy tales.
All this does is give the illusion of a choice, or of equal standing, which confuses more people to believe in superstitious nonsense.
And i dont hold this view just for religions but for every stupid thing thats being debated.
Like the existence of climate change, because it's not fucking negotiable. the facts are indisputable, and i dont want to hear from some right-wing think tank that works for oil company's and mining company's to inject confusion into the public debate.


also tyrant... where do i start with you.

Your saying i'm condemning the action of them housing the homeless, despite creating the thread saying how great it was... because they're religious or they might be religious.
That's dumb as fuck.
You cant contribute the ideas of being economically sound and been socially sound to the fact that most of utah is full of mormons.

And you know what else
i do support the scientific endeavor for more knowledge that has given us rocket science, modern communications, engineering, jet engines, navigation systems. But you know what i dont support?
Having a dogma or belief system based on nonsense that perpetuates the ludicrous idea of we are anything but people, regardless of race, pedigree or religion.

oh and one more thing.
Hitler was a fucking Catholic you goddam moron.

[TVTyrant]

Not sure what hitlers religion has to do with it but okay.

My whole point has been that the religious dogma of the majority people in utah is what has caused this legislation to pass. I totally agree with you on saying its a good thing theyre doing this. But theyre doing it because their church supports it. The represebtatuves in the state house the state house are all mormons you idiot.

And who says they dont support science? Like i said, byu is one if the most influential colleges in the western us, and their science department is awesome.

[Bodzilla]

you set up a strawmen that if you support the advances in science, and that some advances in science where achieved by hitlers dictatorship that you supported genocide.
Are you sure it's not them just looking at the facts, or the bottom line?

What makes you attribute this solely to their faith?
i know i didnt hear SHIT about "because this is what god and jesus would of wanted, we decided to act sanely in regards to homeless."

Everything i saw was "this costs less money and happens to be better socially"

[Donut]

So do you want to accomplish some sort of change, or do you just want to rage at people? Because as stupid and illogical as their religious beliefs are, they still hold onto them as absolute truth. All you're accomplishing (if anything) by treating them like shit is making them ignore you and strengthening their argument that religion is somehow required to be a good person.

Believe me, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. My only issue with with the tone. All I'm saying is that shouting your arguments only fuels the circle jerk between you and the people who already agree with you. You're challenging a mindset that influences a life-long lifestyle. Nobody is going to attempt to change if all you do is tell them they're stupid, uninformed, and a drain on society.

Tyrant hit the nail on the head:

If you can't communicate your feelings with a certain amount of tact, then your message becomes distorted, immature, and thus worthless.

[Dwood]

Everything i saw was "this costs less money and happens to be better socially"
From who?
What source?
Me, as a mormon?

[Bodzilla]

Every single news article i read on the subject before making the thread..... Thats why the politicians did it.

[Dwood]

Good on them for finding a logical reasoning to support their religious-based philanthropy. Also remember that the articles are just interpretations of what happens. So often journalists specifically leave out certain stuff. Are there any articles that interview any utah legislature representatives?

[Bodzilla]

come the fuck on.

you may as well say, eveything good ever is because jesus. Thats incredible naive.

[PopeAK49]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8068890624/hFB06C246/

[TVTyrant]

come the fuck on.

you may as well say, eveything good ever is because jesus. Thats incredible naive.
St. Francis and St. Dominic would argue that in the modern age Jesus has inspired the most good.

Dudes were mildly insane though, since St. Francis refused to sleep inside during rainstorms.

[Dwood]

come the fuck on.

you may as well say, eveything good ever is because jesus. Thats incredible naive.

Ask another christian you may/may not know, and i'll tell you that they pretty much believe that all good things come from Christ. It's a legit real view. Now, however, our view of what's good and what is bad is completely different.

[n00b1n8R]

hey bodzilla did you make this thread to talk about homeless welfare programs or to do 360 noscope fedora headshots

[n00b1n8R]

I cant tell please respond

[Bodzilla]

How about something thats actually got shit to back it up.

Look up the Biological leash. Theres a reason people are inherently good. and it aint christ. it's an evolutionary advantage.
Another sad thing though is that it is an evolutionary advantage for primitive people or species to unquestionable take their parents or another authority figures words as truth, or knowledge, leading the youth to be easily re-programmed to believe ridiculous shit, because if that wasn't there, they may have walked into that lake filled with crocodiles.

[Bodzilla]

why arnt you online you baddie. also it was originally about homelessness.

But when i see things like "Utah's in a good financial position to do something" and i gotta go..... wait hold up a second. it doesn't matter what your financial position is, because it costs less money.

then i hear IT"S CAUSE THEY"RE MORMONZZZzzzZzzZz and apart of me dies inside.

[Dwood]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/7.24?lang=eng#23

Edit: Realized i'm 12 away from 4k posts. Wow.

[Higuy]

why cant we all just be decent human beings for once?

eg like the people in utah

[Bodzilla]

heres a better quote.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_k01vlNCnA4o/TSJ6AluROzI/AAAAAAAAADI/gE_5z4rVmXc/s1600/epicurus_quote1.jpg

[Higuy]

Is Bod mad at Mormons?
Is he able to respect others, but not willing?
Then why call him Bod.

~Higuy

~Ave Wimhair

[n00b1n8R]

Aussie summer time.
Bodie, why won't you can it?
Shitposting is gay.

[Dwood]

Bod I've noticed something about the way you post. I want to preface this, however, and state that in general I've had fun and enjoyed many of your posts and the time we have talked on these forums. This post is nothing personal, but an observation about your posting behavior and attitude.


When you talk about religion, it is not to convert others to an understanding that there is no god. It's to make yourself feel better. It's more of a "duh you moron there's no god get with the times idiot." Note that when you make your point, you have to pull others down, which tells me you aren't here, but to fap to your own self righteousness. Eg you're trying to talk to a religious person the same way you would talk to a fellow atheist about religion. The arrogance is palpable.

If you were more respectful about the way you treated others that believe in a god, I'd say otherwise, but you destroy your own credibility and it becomes a "you can't be as good as me unless you do things this way and believe in things this way" type message you convey. You seem to be so drunk on your atheist self righteousness that you are unable to admit that humans that believe in a god were also instrumental in many good things that happened.

[TVTyrant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jgRlDNAdUE

If there's a god, the Norse had him right.

[Bodzilla]

I didn't bring religion into this discussion, you did by making claims of human progress as the work of the religious majority in Utah.

my problem is this,
Religion has always made ridiculous claims, many of them where at the time not testable or were "gods of the gap" arguments from when we knew less.
Many of them are being proven wrong, and are known to have been proven wrong, but instead of acknowledging that religious texts and institutions where wrong they just shift the goal posts to something else not known and say god did it.

They ignore pivotal social understanding advancements such as the Biological Leash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_ethics)
Or that Sharing was instrumental for the survival of our species Link! (http://www.dailygood.org/story/480/survival-of-the-nicest-eric-michael-johnson) (this misconception is essential for the fallacies of dog eat dog style economics and business practice's that continue to make the world harder for so many people, with incredible opportunity inequality's)

And instead claim God did these things, and have absolutely nothing to back this up. They have nothing of use to predict behaviors, or patterns or advances within our civilization.

Now why am i hostile? Because humanity could be so much more.
We could feed, clothe, house and educate every person on this planet, yet so much wealth, time and resources are spent chasing invisible shadows.

Is there a person here that would claim that if all the religious people in the world stopped focusing on faith and instead donated all that time they spend on it to creating solutions and fixing problems that the world would be exactly the same?
Would a few billion more people working towards a better future not achieve it?

That is what i wish, but first people need to be educated, and religion is the enemy of alot of forms of education. (not all, but alot of the ones that contradict them)

Just imagine, if instead of praying, everyone learned about Armenian genocide. Is it possible humanity would have seen what was happening and prevented the holocaust?
That is what i wish for.

And after years and years of coming up against the same goddam arguments, touting the same goddam strawmen, logical fallacies and known proven wrong facts i've lost patience with religion. It's not a fucking game to me, it's not a philosophical perspective or ideology. It's a detrimental effect on education the world over that leads billions of people to waste their time AND their potential.

And thats what sickens me.

[Rosco]

it's 2014

:smith:

[Patrickssj6]

bod, remove that signature, it's affecting you too much.

[Warsaw]

I like how a whimsical and silly remark was taken seriously and how everybody forgot that the original remark was just tangentially related silliness...including the perpetrator of said remark.

With that, we now have the Modacity: Utah Simulator 2014 thread.

[Bodzilla]

look at it this way, Dwood is a nice guy.

but he's just come back from what was it a year? as a missionary?
Am i alone in suggesting that his devotion and time spent could have been better managed if he'd studied something?

And that if the rest of the world did as well, that we would live in atleast a better educated world and at best a better world?

I mean fuck, we've just finished voting in the worst prime minister that we'll probably ever have. He's at least as bad as G.W.B.
Who won the election because news organizations under Rupert Murdoch's control ran his campaign for him and whipped up the country into xenophobia and racism against asylum seekers..... who specifically come here by boat.

And why did he do it? because he'd OPENLY declared in political fund-raising events that he'd want the ABC (our tax payer funded, heavily regulated, unbiased news service) to be axed so he could have an even greater control of our news.
because apparently 68% of all newspapers sold is not a big enough slice of the pie.

And it's disgusting to me, because i could see the writing on the wall, because i spent time educating myself on these things. I can see the similarity's between this and past global events. And if everyone had a better education and understanding of these issues they wouldn't be so susceptible or gullible to this horse-shit.
So my philosophy is this, if we can stop giving credence to this nonsense and better focus our time, is it possible that we could live in a better world?

Is this really as good as it gets? or is our potential not being limited or hindered by people?

[Donut]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you Bod. All we're saying is getting past religious blockades is going to take a hell of a lot longer if you're yelling the whole time. Like I said before, all you're doing is fueling a circle jerk right now.

[Dwood]

I like how a whimsical and silly remark was taken seriously and how everybody forgot that the original remark was just tangentially related silliness...including the perpetrator of said remark.

With that, we now have the Modacity: Utah Simulator 2014 thread.

10/10 would play again.

[Patrickssj6]

what this thread needs is
a1R8Rx2db9c

[TVTyrant]

I like how a whimsical and silly remark was taken seriously and how everybody forgot that the original remark was just tangentially related silliness...including the perpetrator of said remark.

With that, we now have the Modacity: Utah Simulator 2014 thread.
I can't decide if I or Dwood started this whole thing.

And I don't care enough to go back to page one and read.

[TVTyrant]

look at it this way, Dwood is a nice guy.

but he's just come back from what was it a year? as a missionary?
Am i alone in suggesting that his devotion and time spent could have been better managed if he'd studied something?

Here's the part where you sound like an asshole.


And that if the rest of the world did as well, that we would live in atleast a better educated world and at best a better world?

I mean fuck, we've just finished voting in the worst prime minister that we'll probably ever have. He's at least as bad as G.W.B.
Who won the election because news organizations under Rupert Murdoch's control ran his campaign for him and whipped up the country into xenophobia and racism against asylum seekers..... who specifically come here by boat.

And why did he do it? because he'd OPENLY declared in political fund-raising events that he'd want the ABC (our tax payer funded, heavily regulated, unbiased news service) to be axed so he could have an even greater control of our news.
because apparently 68% of all newspapers sold is not a big enough slice of the pie.

And it's disgusting to me, because i could see the writing on the wall, because i spent time educating myself on these things. I can see the similarity's between this and past global events. And if everyone had a better education and understanding of these issues they wouldn't be so susceptible or gullible to this horse-shit.

Here's the part where you're talking a lot of sense. A+ for socialism and hating the wealthy far-right. I'm right behind you on this.

[=sw=warlord]

Congrats Bod, you've picked up on the telltale signs about society Some of us saw years back but were just being told that such a thought is paranoia.
Ask ross or Warsaw or Dwood or Tyrant.
I do miss Dane. he should come back sometime.

[TVTyrant]

Eh, screw it. After hearing a 19 year old in my class talk about how scholarly articles are "mostly made up" I'm kind of throwing in on Bod's end now.

Young people with no desire to get an education or gain job skills are the worst.

[Bodzilla]

Congrats Bod, you've picked up on the telltale signs about society Some of us saw years back but were just being told that such a thought is paranoia.
Ask ross or Warsaw or Dwood or Tyrant.
I do miss Dane. he should come back sometime.
this isn't some brand new revelation from me.

[Dwood]

I was about to post a counter argument, but there's starcraft to play right now before work tomorrow:

Summarizing the point i would have stated: government isn't going to fix our problems, please don't think it will. There's more evidence of an overpowered government jacking up people's lives than it helping. 2nd) An 'education' isn't as valuable in living a happy healthy life as learning a trade/skill and working at it. And it CERTAINLY does not innoculate from the problems of petty internal squabbling.

[=sw=warlord]

What do you think education is?
Education is supposed to be about learning skills and knowledge.


This is why we end up with people voting for politicians like Cameron, Obama and all the other power crazed loons who simply won't be taken out of their position because apparently public servants no longer need to answer to the public about their actions.
Fuck it, I'm out of here.

:suicide:

[sleepy1212]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you Bod. All we're saying is getting past religious blockades is going to take a hell of a lot longer if you're yelling the whole time.

I agree with Bod but I think there's a point where one ends up being the peta of atheists and nobody likes peta.

Question about Utah: Are there a bunch of uninhabited apartments and houses in Utah? Is it a typical situation, not just in utah but elsewhere, where there is more housing than people with homes? I've recently been watching/reading about reuse, sharing, and modular architecture and I wonder if "container" style housing is really applicable to ending 1st world homelessness or are advances in the way we design communities and housing precluded by existing structures (excluding that from the housing market fallout)?

[Warsaw]

I can't decide if I or Dwood started this whole thing.

And I don't care enough to go back to page one and read.


Utah is actually a really nice state

I feel like foreigners don't really understand Mormonism. They're incredibly nice people, who really aren't pushy about religion and are very charitable.

They don't even believe in hell guys. Come on.

You started it. :)