What day is it?

[rossmum]

June 4th. (http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/showthread.php?t=347713)

Because he needs to be remembered for what he did... and that he did it all all without harming a single person.

http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/images/smilies/emot-patriot.png

[mR_r0b0to]

We shall always remember him.

where do i get those smileys?

[rossmum]

http://sa.tweek.us/emots

I just c&p'd that one from Facepunch because I felt lazy.

[Reaper Man]

That thing is fucking awesome

[Bodzilla]

what a fucking legend
http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/images/smilies/emot-patriot.png

[Corgy]

It was the Queen's Birthday celebration over here

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/LPG/50004~British-Flag-Posters.jpg God Hail the Queen http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/LPG/50004~British-Flag-Posters.jpg

[rossmum]

I don't even know when it is over here, I think QLD already had theirs...

[Neuro Guro]

I bet he was all like,

SPARTANS!!! TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!! :hist101:

[klange]

A true American hero and master of engineering.
In celebration/remembrance I say we make a Killdozer vehicle for CE!

[Agamemnon]

Yes, let's make a shrine to a severely psychologically disturbed man who decided to take his frustration out on the things he could not change and take his life in the end. What heroism!

[Bodzilla]

Yes, let's make a shrine to a severely psychologically disturbed man who decided to take his frustration out on the things he could not change and take his life in the end. What heroism!
amen brother. http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/images/smilies/emot-patriot.png
what a legend

[RaVNzCRoFT]

Dude, I saw footage of this on Video Justice, I think. One of those criminal video shows on Court TV.

[Limited]

Haha. I love how everyone is saying he's a hero. For fucking up his fellow americans. And nearly killing innocent people.

Hey, i'm all up for people who have balls and make a stand. I think he should have fucked over the concrete people and the dude that increased the bid of the land he bought. He shouldn't have gone wild and wrecked other places.

Why on earth did he attack that fire engine building? Yea its a government type building. As its a public service. However he had no actual grudge against those firefighters.

This is no different from these college shootings. He KNEW he was going to cause havok. He knew he would never set foot in the outside world once getting in that "killdozer" he was just a suicidal maniac.

"yah but he didnt kill anyone!!"

It was lucky he didnt kill any one. He hit those buildings without a care in the world if they were occupied. He took at that library which had a learning session for kids. He could have killed them also, were they people who pissed him off? No, they were innocent. He also had guns inside, 2 mounted so he could shoot outside of the dozer.

ßðÐŻÍ££å (http://www.h2vista.net/forums/member.php?u=466), agamemnon was being sarcastic.

To me, he shall be remembered as a total dick.

[Atty]

Call me in a month for the real party.

[klange]

One really long rant
The point is that the man succeeded in screwing the government while not killing anyone in the process. Yes he was f***ing nuts, yes he was out of his mind, yes he caused a lot of chaos and destruction, and yes some of his targets didn't make any sense, but that's not the point. The point is that this is man who really stood up for what he believed in, he had some pretty damn big balls.

EDIT:
Also, the library was in the same building as the town hall. The town hall was his target, and by destroying the town hall, he destroyed the library.

[Limited]

Well, he did kill someone, himself :O But I know what you mean.

So your saying, if any one goes on a rampage, destroying anything, while fucking the government up and attacking targets that have no relation to why hes angry. And you will treat them as a hero.?

You are out your fucking mind.

There are so many other ways to screw the government without going on a crazy rampage.

I do admit, his tankzilla was fucking incredible.

[klange]

and attacking targets that have no relation to why hes angry.

Actually, after looking at the list, they all make sense.
The library was in the same building as the town hall, the only houses he demolished belonged to people who were against him in his fight to stop the cement company, and of course their was the cement company itself and a few other properties belonging to people who had been against him.

Better ways? Yes.
Cooler ways? Hell no!

lol, I got reader's club-ed on HaloMods for posting this. I blame rossmum!

[Limited]

"Cooler ways? Hell no!"

^
Infultrate an actual government army base. Jack a tank. Go fuck up the buildings with it.

THATS cooler.

Also, why smash the fire engine building?

[klange]

"Cooler ways? Hell no!"

^
Infultrate an actual government army base. Jack a tank. Go fuck up the buildings with it.

THATS cooler.

Damn you...

Also, why smash the fire engine building?Mb he was allergic to dogs?*

Show me where that information's coming from, there may be a clue as to why he did it. As with how you pointed out the library, I looked and found that very few sources mentioned the fact that the library was in the same building as the town hall. The guy wasn't totally nuts, there's probably a reason for it.

*Yes, I do know he probably would have gone after a pet store / pound before going after a fire station for that reason...

[Con]

Even if some people think he's a fucking moron (I see your point), I still think it's just an awesome way to make a point. I mean come on. How many protesters make a fucking TANK in their garage out of a bulldozer, then go on an awesome crusade of destruction! It's like domokun angry smashfest:iia:

KILLDOZER RAWR >:0

[klange]

Even if some people think he's a fucking moron (I see your point), I still think it's just an awesome way to make a point. I mean come on. How many protesters make a fucking TANK in their garage out of a bulldozer, then go on an awesome crusade of destruction! It's like domokun angry smashfest:iia:

KILLDOZER RAWR >:0
And that is why this man is a true American hero! Because true American heroes build their own tanks and do battle with them!

[itszutak]

I think that he should be commemorated for his bravery.


And that tank is just the most cool thing since the Batmobile.

[Agamemnon]

The point is that this is man who really stood up for what he believed in, he had some pretty damn big balls.
So did Hitler. Would you like to commemorate the things he did as well?

Oh, and yes, Hitler killed millions and what not, but by your logic we should be celebrating this man because he had the deranged psychological courage to cause as much pain to those that wronged him in the past and, in the end, he killed himself when there was no way out.

[klange]

So did Hitler. Would you like to commemorate the things he did as well?

Oh, and yes, Hitler killed millions and what not, but by your logic we should be celebrating this man because he had the deranged psychological courage to cause as much pain to those that wronged him in the past and, in the end, he killed himself when there was no way out.
...
When you put it that way:
The point is that this is a man who really stood up for what he believed in without killing anyone in the process, he had some pretty damn big balls.

[phase]

That man along with most of the people who posted on the facepunch thread represent the heart of america.

[Agamemnon]

Ah yes, I'm sure with two rifles inside his tank and the complete disregard of public safety that he wasn't expecting casualties of any sort.

My guess is that if you take a year and a half to plan such a scheme, then you're definitely expecting casualties, possibly the casualties of those that wronged him, which would explain the rifles. Again, he destroyed a public library and a fire station. Other people use that too. Guess who would be footing the bill for all of the recreational damage he did to everyone's property and the city streets as well?

He might have not killed anyone, but he made one hell of a mess for everyone in that city to clean up after.

[klange]

Again, he destroyed a public library
Again, the library was in the same building as the town hall.

[teh lag]

You know, people have taken hostages to stand up for what they believe in, and ended up not killing the hostages but themselves... I guess we should laud them as heroes too?

[Emmzee]

06/04 NEVAR FORGET!.

[SnaFuBAR]

That tank was pretty epic. The way that people just think they can ruin people's lives for the sake of making their bank account grows really sickens me.

He dealt out very well deserved destruction.

It only could've been a better vehicle if he had taken the dozer bucket off and welded a toothed wedge in its place to push debris out of the way.

[Emmzee]

And it was amazing that the assault rifles the SWAT team was using had no effect. Put more automatic weapons on that and you need the goddamned military to take that sucker out.

[SnaFuBAR]

I was pretty sure they'd call in an attack helo while I was watching.

[Bodzilla]

ßðÐŻÍ££å (http://www.h2vista.net/forums/member.php?u=466), agamemnon was being sarcastic.

lmao :XD: give me a little credit. i mean jesus the sarcasm was jumping off the page.
it's an australian joke to make fun of ppl's sarcasm :P


Well, he did kill someone, himself :O But I know what you mean.

So your saying, if any one goes on a rampage, destroying anything, while fucking the government up and attacking targets that have no relation to why hes angry. And you will treat them as a hero.?

You are out your fucking mind.

There are so many other ways to screw the government without going on a crazy rampage.

I do admit, his tankzilla was fucking incredible.
amen brother. http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/images/smilies/emot-patriot.png
what a legend.

[rossmum]

Yes, let's make a shrine to a severely psychologically disturbed man who decided to take his frustration out on the things he could not change and take his life in the end. What heroism!
He'd been under constant pressure for over a decade, and nothing had been done. I very much doubt you or anyone else here would be perfectly sane after what he'd been through, either. You don't have to be psychologically disturbed to snap under pressure.


Haha. I love how everyone is saying he's a hero. For fucking up his fellow americans.
I don't see how.


And nearly killing innocent people.
He didn't even come close to so much as harming anybody aside from himself, shut up and do some research before you make moronic statements like that. At no point was anyone other than himself in mortal danger.


Hey, i'm all up for people who have balls and make a stand. I think he should have fucked over the concrete people and the dude that increased the bid of the land he bought. He shouldn't have gone wild and wrecked other places.
Way to read the article. Each of those 'other places' was in some way related to the shit he'd been copping for the last 10 years.


Why on earth did he attack that fire engine building? Yea its a government type building. As its a public service. However he had no actual grudge against those firefighters.
That one I don't know, but I expect he had good reason (logic-wise, not intent-wise).


This is no different from these college shootings.
It's not even fucking close, idiot. Killing 30+ people for no reason whatsoever and demolishing a few buildings without causing any injuries (nor damage to private property) is clearly not the same thing. Think before you post, for fuck's sake.


He KNEW he was going to cause havok.
No shit, since that's what he set out to do.


He knew he would never set foot in the outside world once getting in that "killdozer" he was just a suicidal maniac.
Right, because I'm sure you can get inside his mind and see exactly what he was thinking. :awesome:


"yah but he didnt kill anyone!!"

It was lucky he didnt kill any one. He hit those buildings without a care in the world if they were occupied.
Well it's pretty obvious that they had fair warning to get out of his way, isn't it? From the sounds of things you didn't even skim the article itself; quit acting like a world authority on it. At least attempt to see what he was hoping to achieve here and quit making absurd assumptions.


He took at that library which had a learning session for kids.
Yeah, that library that was attached to the town hall.


He could have killed them also, were they people who pissed him off? No, they were innocent.
Only a complete suicidal idiot would remain inside that library with him approaching the town hall. Even a child would know to run.


He also had guns inside, 2 mounted so he could shoot outside of the dozer.
Except he obviously didn't use them.


To me, he shall be remembered as a total dick.
To me, your post will earn you the title of "ignorant fool". I know you really, really love to take the piss the moment something happens in America, but it's just getting stupid. You're not even trying to see things from his point of view, are you?


Well, he did kill someone, himself :O But I know what you mean.

So your saying, if any one goes on a rampage, destroying anything, while fucking the government up and attacking targets that have no relation to why hes angry. And you will treat them as a hero.?
Way to exaggerate again. He wasn't 'destroying anything', he had already planned out his intended targets. Stop twisting the story to further your own agenda. And since you clearly paid no attention to the actual news story or commentary, I'll let you in on a spoiler: those buildings all had something to do with why he was angry. Maybe if you bothered to read the article or listen to the commentary at the end of the longer video, you'd actually know that.


You are out your fucking mind.
No, you're out of yours. Quit avoiding the obvious facts just because you know they'll tear your paper-thin argument to shreds.


There are so many other ways to screw the government without going on a crazy rampage.
True, but after this man had been constantly hassled by them for over 10 years, do you honestly think he has the patience or the willpower to find another way?


I do admit, his tankzilla was fucking incredible.
Yes, it was.


So did Hitler. Would you like to commemorate the things he did as well?
I find it highly offensive as a relative of an Auschwitz survivor that you would even dare compare the two. Think about that statement for a second, would you?


Oh, and yes, Hitler killed millions and what not, but by your logic we should be celebrating this man because he had the deranged psychological courage to cause as much pain to those that wronged him in the past and, in the end, he killed himself when there was no way out.
How the fuck does that even compare? How, tell me? Oh wait, I see your point. Clearly a deranged madman who killed millions of people for the most utterly ridiculous reasons (including that they had 'wronged him in the past', which the Jews, Gypsies, and Communists clearly did not) is exactly the same as a man described as a likeable mechanic who just snapped and bulldozed a few buildings without harming a single human being aside from himself.

:fail:


Ah yes, I'm sure with two rifles inside his tank and the complete disregard of public safety that he wasn't expecting casualties of any sort.
Well he clearly didn't use them, did he? And who are you to say that they weren't simply a scare tactic rather than a means of killing people?


My guess is that if you take a year and a half to plan such a scheme, then you're definitely expecting casualties, possibly the casualties of those that wronged him, which would explain the rifles.
I've planned something for a year and a half, look out guys, I'm going to go kill people!


Again, he destroyed a public library and a fire station. Other people use that too. Guess who would be footing the bill for all of the recreational damage he did to everyone's property and the city streets as well?
Guess what was attached to the town hall? The library. Guess what he didn't damage? "Everyone's property".


He might have not killed anyone, but he made one hell of a mess for everyone in that city to clean up after.
True, but the damage honestly was not that bad. The streets could easily be cleared, and the buildings rebuilt when possible. It's not like the public had to foot the bill for everything and rebuild it all exactly as it was.


You know, people have taken hostages to stand up for what they believe in, and ended up not killing the hostages but themselves... I guess we should laud them as heroes too?
Because this guy totally took hostages, right? :confused2:

[Bodzilla]

rossmum has anyone ever told u that your awesome.

[rossmum]

rossmum has anyone ever told u that your awesome.
Yeah, but I tend not to really pay them any mind... I'm no SVC :|

[n00b1n8R]

What a moron.

I'm not even going to pretend to like him, that's just stupid.

limited wins.

[Limited]

Yes his vehicle was awesome. But calling him an American hero is insulting everyone that deserves to be called a hero. Some one who doesnt even think when saving someone elses life, some one who puts their life before some one elses. To me and many millions of people that is what a hero is known as.

He trashed buildings, none of these buildings were abandoned, run down buildings were they. Therefore some one could have been in the buildings when he went to demolish them.

lol

Way to read the article. Each of those 'other places' was in some way related to the shit he'd been copping for the last 10 years.
The next line

That one I don't know, but I expect he had good reason (logic-wise, not intent-wise).

I doubt he had a good reason. He probably just went a bit crazy, not thinking exactly what he was doing.


Right, because I'm sure you can get inside his mind and see exactly what he was thinking.

You tell me to read the article. I read the article. If you had read it too you would have seen that the police department thinks that he used some sort of hand made crane to lift the outter shell of the protection.
"Authorities speculated Heemeyer may have used a homemade crane found in his garage to lower the armor hull over the dozer and himself. "Once he tipped that lid shut, he knew he wasn't getting out," Daly said."

"blablablah the library was inside the city hall!!"

Oh, right, my mistake that makes it 100% acceptable doesnt it.


Except he obviously didn't use them.Reports say he did. reports say he shot a few oil tanks, and shot out when officers got close.


I know you really, really love to take the piss the moment something happens in America, but it's just getting stupid. You're not even trying to see things from his point of view, are you?Hey, they did screw him over, yes I feel he should have done something about it, that isnt the normal route (politics). I think he should have destroyed the cement factory AND THATS IT. No need to go on a rampage. I cant see things from his point of view? He was insane. The whole "they screwed me over" thing got to his head, no one in there RIGHT mind would go on a rampage in a fortified bulldozer would they? I've never heard that happen before...


No, you're out of yours. Quit avoiding the obvious facts just because you know they'll tear your paper-thin argument to shreds.What obvious facts? The one about the city hall? The one about he didnt kill any one? The one that "people know how to run away" like you said earlier?

He was lucky he didnt kill any one but himself. People might know how to run away but dude, you panic in these situations, you freeze, you get confused, I wouldnt know which way to run, maybe out the back away from the dozer but who says he wont keep going though the building to get to them??


I find it highly offensive as a relative of an Auschwitz survivor that you would even dare compare the two. Think about that statement for a second, would you? If you didnt relise, yours and everyone elses replies who claim this guy to "be a hero/american legend" is upsetting and offensive to other people. The twin towers, 9/11 was a tragic day wasnt it? There was a security guard from my county who worked in the tower. He didnt go down the towers, he stayed and showed the people who didnt know where the exits where, he told people just go keep going down, he shouted words of incouragement to people who were wanting to give up, he was conforting those who were scared out of their minds.
HE is the real hero, and your saying some crazy dude is a hero. It's like stabbing the real hero's in the heart.

How dare you call this man a hero. Think about that statement for a second, would you?

Also this whole "9mm doesnt like america" thing is bs. I just dont care much for America, nor does many others, America is NOT the centre of the world

[rossmum]

Yes his vehicle was awesome. But calling him an American hero is insulting everyone that deserves to be called a hero. Some one who doesnt even think when saving someone elses life, some one who puts their life before some one elses. To me and many millions of people that is what a hero is known as.
I don't see it does. He stood up for what he believed in, and despite the fact he had probably lost all logical reason by then, he still retained enough good to avoid collateral damage or injuries to anybody.


He trashed buildings, none of these buildings were abandoned, run down buildings were they. Therefore some one could have been in the buildings when he went to demolish them.
In case you didn't notice, the dozer moved so incredibly slowly that people would have more than enough warning to get out. In any case, considering witnesses described him as going out of his way to avoid people. Yes, people could've been inside, but they still could've got out. Most of that footage was sped up by at least 2-4x.


lol

Quote:
Way to read the article. Each of those 'other places' was in some way related to the shit he'd been copping for the last 10 years.
The next line

Quote:
That one I don't know, but I expect he had good reason (logic-wise, not intent-wise).
I doubt he had a good reason. He probably just went a bit crazy, not thinking exactly what he was doing.
If anything he was probably trying to buy himself a little more time, though I'm still honestly not sure. Still, he'd been planning this for quite some time; it's highly unlikely it was a random attack.



Quote:
Right, because I'm sure you can get inside his mind and see exactly what he was thinking.
You tell me to read the article. I read the article. If you had read it too you would have seen that the police department thinks that he used some sort of hand made crane to lift the outter shell of the protection.
"Authorities speculated Heemeyer may have used a homemade crane found in his garage to lower the armor hull over the dozer and himself. "Once he tipped that lid shut, he knew he wasn't getting out," Daly said."
That was not my point at all. My point is that you act like you know what he intended aside from the obvious - I wasn't referring to the 'sealing inside' bit.


"blablablah the library was inside the city hall!!"

Oh, right, my mistake that makes it 100% acceptable doesnt it.
I don't suppose you understand how structures work, then? If the town hall came down, it more than likely would've brought the library down.



Quote:
Except he obviously didn't use them.
Reports say he did. reports say he shot a few oil tanks, and shot out when officers got close.
You saw the video. You saw then standing in the open mere feet away. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, with even a basic knowledge of rifles could possibly miss from that range. You know what that implies? He was probably firing something known as a warning shot, clearly an alien concept to you.



Quote:
I know you really, really love to take the piss the moment something happens in America, but it's just getting stupid. You're not even trying to see things from his point of view, are you?
Hey, they did screw him over, yes I feel he should have done something about it, that isnt the normal route (politics). I think he should have destroyed the cement factory AND THATS IT. No need to go on a rampage. I cant see things from his point of view? He was insane. The whole "they screwed me over" thing got to his head, no one in there RIGHT mind would go on a rampage in a fortified bulldozer would they? I've never heard that happen before...
It happens all the time, because people see something's wrong and can't be fucked to try and help. He had been getting shit for 10 years. 10 years is way more than enough for someone to step in, show him some support, and work out a compromise. Guess what? Nobody did. I don't blame him for snapping like that, but it doesn't mean he was always insane.

You clearly have no idea what prolonged mental strain like that can do to a person. Perhaps you should ask someone else who's been in the news a lot recently, a certain young man who shot over 30 people dead. Now he was not a hero of any sort. He murdered all those people in cold blood and then shot himself as a cry for help. The two aren't comparable in terms of their actions, but the process leading up is the same. Take a slightly unstable person, and keep pushing and pushing. See what happens. It happens to normal people to, but it just takes longer and when they snap it tends not to be so dramatic.

Perhaps if people would quit paying out on people like this man and actually help them out for a change, this shit would never happen in the first place. But no, society can't possibly foot the blame itself, so instead either video games or seriously depressed and desperate people in need of help cop the lot. Well done, Western civilisation. http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/images/smilies/emot-patriot.png



Quote:
No, you're out of yours. Quit avoiding the obvious facts just because you know they'll tear your paper-thin argument to shreds.
What obvious facts? The one about the city hall? The one about he didnt kill any one? The one that "people know how to run away" like you said earlier?

He was lucky he didnt kill any one but himself. People might know how to run away but dude, you panic in these situations, you freeze, you get confused, I wouldnt know which way to run, maybe out the back away from the dozer but who says he wont keep going though the building to get to them??
Probably the same witnesses who said he was avoiding pedestrians completely. I imagine he would've stopped long enough to let them move, he may have gone rather insane but he was clearly still a good man at heart, otherwise there would definitely be casualties.



Quote:
I find it highly offensive as a relative of an Auschwitz survivor that you would even dare compare the two. Think about that statement for a second, would you?
If you didnt relise, yours and everyone elses replies who claim this guy to "be a hero/american legend"
I don't remember calling him an American hero so much as paying my respects to him for being a champion of the oppressed... without killing anyone.


...is upsetting and offensive to other people. The twin towers, 9/11 was a tragic day wasnt it? There was a security guard from my county who worked in the tower. He didnt go down the towers, he stayed and showed the people who didnt know where the exits where, he told people just go keep going down, he shouted words of incouragement to people who were wanting to give up, he was conforting those who were scared out of their minds.
HE is the real hero, and your saying some crazy dude is a hero. It's like stabbing the real hero's in the heart.
No, it isn't. He's a totally different kind.


How dare you call this man a hero. Think about that statement for a second, would you?
In my opinion, doing what he did yet still retaining his compassion for the 'innocent' (in his eyes) people and even the 'guilty' makes him a different kind. He stood up for what he believed in, and he got his message noticed... all without harming anybody else. In his eyes, it was probably his only choice.


Also this whole "9mm doesnt like america" thing is bs. I just dont care much for America, nor does many others, America is NOT the centre of the world
That's not the impression I get. Same could be said for several other members who I've seen saying the same thing.

Regardless of what he did, he at least did it in a way which ensured nobody was injured. If you can't even respect him for that, then you're the lost cause here.

Edit:

I expect the mods will disagree, but we need debates more often... though perhaps with less exaggerated claims and low-blows on all sides. It might help counteract the recent flood of pointless threads.

[klange]

My political views are extremely strong, my debates always lead to flaming :(
Also, what is the definition of 'hero'?
"a man distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength"?
"someone who fights for a cause"?
Was the man crazy? Yes
May he have had no regard for human life? Possibly
Did he have reason for most, if not all of what he did? Yes. Yes, he did. He had a lot more reason to do what he did than any other psychopath who took action - and he is one of very few who hurt no one but still followed through with his plan.
Limited, you brought up hostage-takers earlier. When no hostages are killed, the goal of the hostage-taker isn't always (in fact, almost never is) met.
This man took no lives, caused no injury and still met his goal. That is truly amazing.

[rossmum]

...Thank you.

[Agamemnon]

He'd been under constant pressure for over a decade, and nothing had been done. I very much doubt you or anyone else here would be perfectly sane after what he'd been through, either. You don't have to be psychologically disturbed to snap under pressure.
Yes, you do. When people cross the line of what sane and insanity is for them then they have snapped under pressure psychologically. Also, usually when people arm themselves inside a tank and take their lives in the end usually doesn't help to the cause of them just "being under a little pressure." I've been under constant pressure nearly throughout my whole life but you don't see me going to go get a shotgun and hop in a steel-plated ATV and take it out on those that put me under pressure.


I find it highly offensive as a relative of an Auschwitz survivor that you would even dare compare the two. Think about that statement for a second, would you?
How about you think about it? That's another thing wrong with people nowadays. The mere mention of Hitler and people should think that we should all envision him as the devil and if we had the chance we'd all give our lives in sacrifice if it meant going back in time to kill him. Yes, the things he did were wrong and atrocious, but the comparison fully fits. Hitler was psychologically disturbed and so was this guy. Hitler decided to commit genocide against those that pained him the most and that's exactly what that guy was trying to do. I guess he just didn't think it through with a super noisy bulldozer going 5 MPH that the people would be taken by surprise. Then again, the rifles would explain that.


How the fuck does that even compare? How, tell me? Oh wait, I see your point. Clearly a deranged madman who killed millions of people for the most utterly ridiculous reasons (including that they had 'wronged him in the past', which the Jews, Gypsies, and Communists clearly did not) is exactly the same as a man described as a likeable mechanic who just snapped and bulldozed a few buildings without harming a single human being aside from himself.
Again, you're only seeing what he did, not the psychological affect on it all. Hitler had a plan to cause as much pain as to those who pained him; this guy did the exact same. Just because he didn't achieve his objective in killing them doesn't mean he didn't destroy their lives when it came to destroying their houses and businesses. Again, he cared not about the innocent bystanders as well. What about the families of the men who wronged him that he destroyed their lives? Did their children do anything to him?


Well he clearly didn't use them, did he? And who are you to say that they weren't simply a scare tactic rather than a means of killing people?
Who takes fully-loaded rifles into a tank in which their were holes from him to shoot out from his tank? I'm sure the planning of making window shootings wasn't a set back in the development of the tank as well, huh Rossmum?

Also, scare tactics? Wouldn't you think an indestructible bulldozer taking out warehouses would be scary enough? I seriously doubt anyone would even be able to see the rifles from a hundred yards away.


I've planned something for a year and a half, look out guys, I'm going to go kill people!
I was talking about in this situation, Rossmum. Calm down. This man did nothing for you, so why are you defending him like Mother Theresa?


Guess what was attached to the town hall? The library. Guess what he didn't damage? "Everyone's property".
And it was obviously something he knew about and didn't give a damn about, thus also showing complete disregard for innocent bystanders. People lost their jobs as well; did everyone in City Hall wrong him? No.

And he did destroy everyone's property. He took out City Hall, the library, the fire station, and caused severe damage to the streets. All of that costs money, money which comes from the citizens of that town itself.


True, but the damage honestly was not that bad. The streets could easily be cleared, and the buildings rebuilt when possible. It's not like the public had to foot the bill for everything and rebuild it all exactly as it was.
Public transportation is funded by the city government, as are government buildings. The City Hall, the library, and the fire station are also government buildings. They did have to foot the bill, it's just that they weren't billed a "city reconstruction" fine. Water and electric costs probably went up and there were probably some new ordinances in which people had to pay fines for.


Also, what is the definition of 'hero'?
The definition is different for everyone. This isn't some dictionary case where what it says in there is correct and "I win the argument!" kind of thing. Many Soviets saw Stalin as their hero; so is Stalin a hero then?


Was the man crazy? Yes
May he have had no regard for human life? Possibly
Did he have reason for most, if not all of what he did? Yes. Yes, he did. He had a lot more reason to do what he did than any other psychopath who took action - and he is one of very few who hurt no one but still followed through with his plan.
No, he didn't. There are many different definitions of insanity and none of them are true. What is sane to one person is insane to another. This man was a man who did things the correct way and took a lot of crap from people. He went insane when he did something that he would never do unless he has cracked under extreme pressure.

Also, what do people not get about suicide? People don't just kill themselves because they feel like it. They have to be severely distrusted to want to end their lives. I seriously doubt this man was doing this to become an eternal hero in some of your eyes; the whole thing was about getting square with those that did him wrong.

Also also, destroying people's businesses and homes isn't an honorable thing as well, no matter how much they have wronged you. It makes you no better then those people as well. That's exactly why this man shouldn't be worshiped or revered as many of you are doing so now, because the next time something like this happens and a few people die for a greater cause, you'll say, "well he only killed a few people. It could've been a lot worse." And that's just it. You'll view the smallest casualties as a necessity to a greater cause, which is why many support wars.

[Limited]

Ha, although its your opinion, but both your definitions of a hero sucks ass.
a man distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength"?
"someone who fights for a cause"?

Someone who fights for a cause? Baha. Okay, I'm having a fight with you now. Sweet that makes me a hero!11

You saw the video. You saw then standing in the open mere feet away. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, with even a basic knowledge of rifles could possibly miss from that range. You know what that implies? He was probably firing something known as a warning shot, clearly an alien concept to you.

You also saw he only saw out the tank via 2 cameras. He had no other means at all of seeing people, yes it was a warning shot, i bet if they were in target, he would have shot too.

I think its despicable and appauling that you class this man a hero for what little he has done. Has he helped any one but himself? No, has he helped himself? No. So he got fuck all out of it. Pretty fucking retarded. All he needed to do was to bash down the concrete factory thing and town hall and then spin around outside until the choppers came and then surrender. (he would have made a way to exit before hand) and then he would have got news coverage, he would have got heard AND he would have done the right thing.

[klange]

define:hero

Also, I saw a short documentary on the incident a while back. He welded himself into the Killdozer when he first got in. He wasn't going to get out either way.


He may have done something that was cruel and stupid. He may have been completely out of his mind. But there is nothing* more amazing than a man that makes a tank and then uses it, and, whether it be luck or intent, causes no injuries or causalities just to get revenge.

*There are some things cooler, but you'd have to be reaaaally nuts to do any of them.

[phase]

I think its despicable and appauling that you class this man a hero for what little he has done. Has he helped any one but himself? No, has he helped himself? No. So he got fuck all out of it. Pretty fucking retarded. All he needed to do was to bash down the concrete factory thing and town hall and then spin around outside until the choppers came and then surrender. (he would have made a way to exit before hand) and then he would have got news coverage, he would have got heard AND he would have done the right thing.


I repeatz.


That man along with most of the people who posted on
the facepunch thread represent the heart of america.
That man was wronged so he did somthing retarded against the peope that wronged him using god as a justification.

[Agamemnon]

He may have done something that was cruel and stupid. He may have been completely out of his mind. But there is nothing* more amazing than a man that makes a tank and then uses it, and, whether it be luck or intent, causes no injuries or causalities just to get revenge.
Oh, so this is just the cool factor then. Yeah, that makes it all ok now. Yes, people causing pain to others and then killing themselves in the end is so cool!

You want to know what's amazing? The degrading of civilization. You want to even know what's even more amazing? A lot of people who don't wish for it to happen continue it down the path by what is echoed in their actions.

[Emmzee]

You guys are missing the point. The point is what that guy did was fucking epic, and if I ever go on a rampage, that's the kind of thing I'd do. Way cooler than walking into a mall and just shooting.

[n00b1n8R]

If i may ask, how is this guy any better than a terrorist carbomber?

[itszutak]

You guys are missing the point. The point is what that guy did was fucking epic, and if I ever go on a rampage, that's the kind of thing I'd do. Way cooler than walking into a mall and just shooting.
QFT

[thehoodedsmack]

If i may ask, how is this guy any better than a terrorist carbomber?

:XD:

Oh.... you were serious?

Well, we could start with the fact that HE DIDN'T SET OUT TO KILL ANYONE!

[n00b1n8R]

Right THS, I'm sure from inside his armourd box, he could really tell that the buildings were unocupied.

The fact he didn't kill anyone is more up to dumb luck than design.

[SnaFuBAR]

doubtful. he most likely knew that authorities would evacuate the buildings he was going to doze, as they would've seen him coming for a long long time. also, of course he would've known that prior to him arriving, the buildings were occupied. it was the middle of the day.

[Con]

I think it was a pretty courageous thing to do. True courage is standing up for what you beleive in; or by definition, "strength to face danger or take on challenges." You can't argue with that; whether it was the right thing to do, whether it was good or bad, is just based on other people's values. People's perception of the event do not change the fact that it was courageous, because our values are variable.

[rossmum]

Yes, you do. When people cross the line of what sane and insanity is for them then they have snapped under pressure psychologically. Also, usually when people arm themselves inside a tank and take their lives in the end usually doesn't help to the cause of them just "being under a little pressure." I've been under constant pressure nearly throughout my whole life but you don't see me going to go get a shotgun and hop in a steel-plated ATV and take it out on those that put me under pressure.
Yeah, so have I. Thankfully I'm not a violent person and I'm not likely to go around bulldozing things any time soon... but that's because I know people actually give a shit. This guy had virtually no support, which is why he snapped like he did.


How about you think about it? That's another thing wrong with people nowadays. The mere mention of Hitler and people should think that we should all envision him as the devil and if we had the chance we'd all give our lives in sacrifice if it meant going back in time to kill him. Yes, the things he did were wrong and atrocious, but the comparison fully fits. Hitler was psychologically disturbed and so was this guy. Hitler decided to commit genocide against those that pained him the most and that's exactly what that guy was trying to do.
Aga, you know I respect you and I don't like arguing with you, but that is just complete shit. This man bulldozed 13 buildings and harmed nobody but himself. Even if he hadn't gone out of his way to avoid pedestrians - a lot of people in this thread must have an allergy to bold-faced text - he would've killed maybe 50-100 people... at most. Hitler ordered the deaths of millions of people in the interest of furthering himself, and the war he began caused a further 40 million deaths worldwide (some estimate higher). He destroyed most of Eastern Europe, not to mention Germany, for the better part of 40 years. He had live people gassed, shot, hung with piano wire, thrown out of windows, incinerated, and ripped open with no anaesthetic in the name of 'medicine'. He sent ordinary German men to their frostbitten and miserable deaths on the Eastern front, and ordered the massacre of Allied prisoners when it was clear the war in Europe was going to be lost in mere days. Thankfully, very few officers obeyed that order. How you can compare this man to Adolf Hitler and furthermore insist they were similar is beyond me.


I guess he just didn't think it through with a super noisy bulldozer going 5 MPH that the people would be taken by surprise. Then again, the rifles would explain that.
The rifles which he didn't actually shoot anyone with, despite the way the SWAT officers were presenting themselves standing full-height in the open directly in front of the dozer's gunports?


Again, you're only seeing what he did, not the psychological affect on it all. Hitler had a plan to cause as much pain as to those who pained him; this guy did the exact same. Just because he didn't achieve his objective in killing them doesn't mean he didn't destroy their lives when it came to destroying their houses and businesses.
The Hitler comparison is utter crap as shown above, so I won't even bother with that statement. Yes, he did the wrong thing by bulldozing those buildings; yes, he probably did traumatise the owners and many of the witnesses. The difference is that he gave them the chance to rebuild and recover, whereas he was clearly well and truly beyond that.


Again, he cared not about the innocent bystanders as well. What about the families of the men who wronged him that he destroyed their lives? Did their children do anything to him?
Obviously not, but you treat the matter like he was actually working under rational thought while planning this. He was probably focused entirely on those he saw as having wronged him. Did I ever justify what he did? No. I'm merely stating that people should be more open-minded and at least consider the possibility that this man wasn't just an evil maniac from the start, and especially not comparable to Hitler, of all people. Interestingly enough, it seems everywhere this article was posted, somebody had to grossly exaggerate and compare him to one of the most evil, repulsive men ever to walk the Earth.


Who takes fully-loaded rifles into a tank in which their were holes from him to shoot out from his tank? I'm sure the planning of making window shootings wasn't a set back in the development of the tank as well, huh Rossmum?
I'm sure the fact that there were no casualties despite how easy the SWAT officers would've been for him to shoot go to show that shooting people wasn't their purpose, and even if it was, he obviously decided against that.


Also, scare tactics? Wouldn't you think an indestructible bulldozer taking out warehouses would be scary enough? I seriously doubt anyone would even be able to see the rifles from a hundred yards away.
See them? Why would they need to see them? All it takes is a few shots into the air and people would scatter.


[/b]I was talking about in this situation, Rossmum. Calm down. This man did nothing for you, so why are you defending him like Mother Theresa?
Because I actually attempted to see why he did what he did, and respect him for getting his point across without hurting anyone physically. If he wanted to, he easily could've. He didn't.


And it was obviously something he knew about and didn't give a damn about, thus also showing complete disregard for innocent bystanders. People lost their jobs as well; did everyone in City Hall wrong him? No.
In a way, everybody who knew he was being harassed and did nothing about it wronged him. I'm sure if a few people had taken his side and shown some support, this never would've happened. But oh, of course; these days, nobody cares so long as they think they're safe. Nobody helps anybody anymore. Their loss, clearly.


And he did destroy everyone's property. He took out City Hall, the library, the fire station, and caused severe damage to the streets. All of that costs money, money which comes from the citizens of that town itself.
You know what I meant. He didn't destroy any homes that didn't belong to those he felt had wronged him, and he avoided pedestrians completely. Clearly this man had no intention of harming the general public, he probably didn't realise they'd have to pay for a lot of the reconstruction. Understandable, since his head was probably all over the place at the time.


Public transportation is funded by the city government, as are government buildings. The City Hall, the library, and the fire station are also government buildings. They did have to foot the bill, it's just that they weren't billed a "city reconstruction" fine. Water and electric costs probably went up and there were probably some new ordinances in which people had to pay fines for.
Yes, those were; the cement plant, the hardware store, and the Judge's house were not.


The definition is different for everyone. This isn't some dictionary case where what it says in there is correct and "I win the argument!" kind of thing. Many Soviets saw Stalin as their hero; so is Stalin a hero then?
It's a perspective thing, as you just stated, so the fact anybody even decided to state the opposite and then tell anyone who so much as implied they supported him in the slightest is rather pointless.


No, he didn't. There are many different definitions of insanity and none of them are true. What is sane to one person is insane to another. This man was a man who did things the correct way and took a lot of crap from people. He went insane when he did something that he would never do unless he has cracked under extreme pressure.
Exactly, and if you take any normal person and put them under prolonged and extreme pressure, they would eventually crack. Perhaps not as spectacularly, but they would. Most people simply have a mid-life crisis and then get on with it; some have nervious breakdowns. Some even go out looking for revenge. It depends on the person and the type and duration of the cause.


Also, what do people not get about suicide? People don't just kill themselves because they feel like it. They have to be severely distrusted to want to end their lives. I seriously doubt this man was doing this to become an eternal hero in some of your eyes; the whole thing was about getting square with those that did him wrong.
Severely disturbed? Don't you mean severely depressed? I wasn't aware you had to be very wrong in the head to kill yourself; I guess that means a hell of a lot of apparently normal people were actually stark-raving mad.


Also also, destroying people's businesses and homes isn't an honorable thing as well, no matter how much they have wronged you. It makes you no better then those people as well. That's exactly why this man shouldn't be worshiped or revered as many of you are doing so now, because the next time something like this happens and a few people die for a greater cause, you'll say, "well he only killed a few people. It could've been a lot worse." And that's just it. You'll view the smallest casualties as a necessity to a greater cause, which is why many support wars.

Are you kidding? The only reason I have so much respect for this man - the only reason I have any for him at all - is because of the way he tried to avoid casualties. How many other rampages result in no injuries or deaths except that of the rampager? Looking back through recent news out of the US, not many.


Ha, although its your opinion, but both your definitions of a hero sucks ass.
Oh, and I suppose you have a better one?


a man distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength"?
"someone who fights for a cause"?

Someone who fights for a cause? Baha. Okay, I'm having a fight with you now. Sweet that makes me a hero!11
9mm, I don't know whether you're trying to come off as an idiot or not, but you're sure doing well. Perhaps you need to learn to interpret things without being overly childish about it or changing the meaning in the process.


[quote=rossmum]You saw the video. You saw then standing in the open mere feet away. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, with even a basic knowledge of rifles could possibly miss from that range. You know what that implies? He was probably firing something known as a warning shot, clearly an alien concept to you.


You also saw he only saw out the tank via 2 cameras. He had no other means at all of seeing people, yes it was a warning shot, i bet if they were in target, he would have shot too.
I don't suppose you also noticed the positioning of the rifles? I seriously doubt he even intended to take aimed shots at all. You can't aim a rifle with a camera mounted in a completely different position, and from what I could tell, he would have a very hard time aiming out of the gunports he added. Even if he could aim out of them, he clearly didn't, since SWAT officers were standing directly in front of them.


I think its despicable and appauling that you class this man a hero for what little he has done.
I think it's despicable and appauling that people like you are too ignorant to see what was actually happening here. Maybe if you spent less time paying out on people like this and more time giving them the support they need before it gets to that stage, there wouldn't be anything like this happening? Oh, but that would be the intelligent and considerate thing to do. Heaven forbid you should have to help anybody but yourself.


Has he helped any one but himself?
Did anybody help him? Clearly not, they were all too busy denouncing him as the next Hitler or claiming he was a psychopathic killer who was just lucky that he didn't kill anyone. Oh wait, I forgot, he was described by an eyewitness as going out of his way to avoid casualties. I guess you still have trouble reading bold-faced text then?


No, has he helped himself? No. So he got fuck all out of it.
Are you him? No. So you have fuck all idea of what he got out of it.


Pretty fucking retarded.
The fact you can say that after all the ignorant self-concerned assumptions you've been spouting in this thread is almost funny.


All he needed to do was to bash down the concrete factory thing and town hall and then spin around outside until the choppers came and then surrender. (he would have made a way to exit before hand) and then he would have got news coverage, he would have got heard AND he would have done the right thing.
If he'd bashed down the concrete plant and town hall, people like you would still find a way to criticise him. And do you honestly think this man was thinking rationally at the time? Well, do you? If he had been, he wouldn't have done anything at all.


Oh, so this is just the cool factor then. Yeah, that makes it all ok now. Yes, people causing pain to others and then killing themselves in the end is so cool!
I never stated that it was, so I'll leave that one for someone else to argue.


You want to know what's amazing? The degrading of civilization. You want to even know what's even more amazing? A lot of people who don't wish for it to happen continue it down the path by what is echoed in their actions.
Yeah, like all those people who sit back and expect someone to take a decade's worth of shit and not be in a pretty sorry state, right? Oh wait, my bad. Clearly it's not them at fault. Not like society needs to lump the blame onto somebody else, be it gamers or unstable people who need help. Of course, alienating the latter just makes things worse, but I don't suppose any of you stopped to think about that one.


If i may ask, how is this guy any better than a terrorist carbomber?
Are you fucking serious? This man clearly had regard for human life, even if he was risking injuries as he smashed into buildings. I suppose you're another person whose brain can't take in the fact that he went out of his way to avoid pedestrians.


Right THS, I'm sure from inside his armourd box, he could really tell that the buildings were unocupied.

The fact he didn't kill anyone is more up to dumb luck than design.
Read the above and take your ignorance somewhere else.


doubtful. he most likely knew that authorities would evacuate the buildings he was going to doze, as they would've seen him coming for a long long time. also, of course he would've known that prior to him arriving, the buildings were occupied. it was the middle of the day.
Exactly. Most of that video was accelerated by quite a lot. The dozer was moving slower than walking pace the entire time, and combined with the noise, the sight of it, and the evacuations pretty much made sure nobody would be inside.


I think it was a pretty courageous thing to do. True courage is standing up for what you beleive in; or by definition, "strength to face danger or take on challenges." You can't argue with that; whether it was the right thing to do, whether it was good or bad, is just based on other people's values. People's perception of the event do not change the fact that it was courageous, because our values are variable.
Exactly. It would seem quite a few people have trouble understanding that basic fact... I should've known better than to post it on a forum loaded to the brim with bandwagoners and people who argue for argument's sake. Those of you who actually brought up valid points (or attempted to) in your arguments, you're clearly not changing your close-minded opinions on the matter, just as you won't change mine. We may as well agree to disagree. I just hope for your sakes (and theirs) that you never meet a person like this man, since you'd more than likely contribute to their problems rather than help alleviate them. I also seriously doubt anyone on the opposing side other than Aga actually knew what the hell they were talking about.

I'm leaving this unlocked; you can continue to argue if you wish. I do quite enjoy a good debate.

[SnaFuBAR]

longpost is long :-3

[rossmum]

Not true.
Oh, I wasn't aware you were reading his mind at the time.




Others claimed Heemeyer had fired 15 bullets from his rifle at power transformers and propane tanks. "Had these tanks ruptured and exploded, anyone within one-half mile of the explosion could have been endangered," the sheriff's department said. Within this range were 12 police officers and residents of a senior citizens complex.

You see that? "Others claimed". That means not everybody was in agreeance, does it not? It also means that it's not fact. Not to mention that if he couldn't even hit standing targets at close range, there isn't much of a chance that he could've hit propane tanks or transformers in such a way that could cause any casualties. Knowing the way US police react to things (15 patrol cars, dogs, drawn pistols, spikestrips, and a taser just to pull over a speeding, elderly drunk driver?), the shots probably didn't even go near the tanks. I wouldn't be surprised if he was simply firing the weapon near them, not at them.


And he had a list.
If I list the people I dislike, does that mean I'm going to kill them? Oh no, I'd better go turn myself in for several hundred counts of murder before it's too late, then.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer
Because wikipedia is a truly reliable source. Articles on controversial issues such as this honestly aren't that accurate; they usually turn into pissing matches between the two sides, like they're trying to out-fact the other.

[thehoodedsmack]

And he had a list. ~Wikiquote

Sorry, Emmzee. I don't like to get into arguments, but a), the quote is from wikipedia, and I could go change it right now if I wanted, and b) that quote is also one of the only statements not sourced in that article, making it even less reliable.

[Agamemnon]

I thought you said you didn't want to continue arguing with me? :confused:

[SnaFuBAR]

seems to me that the lot of you are forgetting what the legal system and the company did to him, and for how long it ensued. get a fucking grip you dumb wanks.

[rossmum]

I thought you said you didn't want to continue arguing with me? :confused:
If you intend to continue arguing over it, then I will too. I'm honestly sick and fucking tired of seeing people like this condemned when it's those who failed to help them and prevent such tragedies who should be in the metaphorical firing line.

[Emmzee]

seems to me that the lot of you are forgetting what the legal system and the company did to him, and for how long it ensued. get a fucking grip you dumb wanks.
Thank you. You guys just want to argue like little punks, ignoring that what this guy did was totally fucking cool, nay, radical.

[Bodzilla]

If i may ask, how is this guy any better than a terrorist carbomber?
dude. that is without a doubt the stupidest thing i have ever seen u said.
and u where serious???? like wtf man.


Did he have reason for most, if not all of what he did? Yes. Yes, he did. He had a lot more reason to do what he did than any other psychopath who took action - and he is one of very few who hurt no one but still followed through with his plan.
Limited, you brought up hostage-takers earlier. When no hostages are killed, the goal of the hostage-taker isn't always (in fact, almost never is) met.
This man took no lives, caused no injury and still met his goal. That is truly amazing.

^exactly how i feel.


I think it was a pretty courageous thing to do. True courage is standing up for what you beleive in; or by definition, "strength to face danger or take on challenges." You can't argue with that; whether it was the right thing to do, whether it was good or bad, is just based on other people's values. People's perception of the event do not change the fact that it was courageous, because our values are variable.
^

seems to me that the lot of you are forgetting what the legal system and the company did to him, and for how long it ensued. get a fucking grip you dumb wanks.
^ ppl keep judging him only on the damage bills.... which is a horrible "black and white" way to examine things. its a corporate style, non-logical way to view the world and i'm truly worried about how or why people are doing this.

the facts speak for themselves.
The man showed incredible courage and stood up for what he believed in and in the process he never harmed a soul. that is why he is a hero to me.