A simple question.

[teh lag]

NOTE : Do not reply without reading through all of this. Let's keep stupid posts out of here, and stay to intelligent discussion.

I've been meaning to ask this for a while, as I'm sure much of the community has, and I think it's time to ask for an answer.

Why has so much content been removed from the Halo 2 Map Editor's tagset? (Never mind the locked down toolset, part of which is understandable if a desire of keeping "traditional" Halo 2 gameplay was an issue.) The Help File refernces several tags that simply are not present, indicating that we were, at one point, going to receive a complete MP tagset... but for some reason or another, an incredibly large portion vanished.

We were told, when the editing kit portion of the game was announced, that we would have acess to full multiplayer map creation resources. Yet, there seems to be a very conspicuous lack of things that one would expect for a functional editing kit. There is a very lackluster amount of environmental shaders and bitmaps; the only ones supplied are for forerunner industrial maps. The Help File makes a reference to the folder "tags\scenarios\bitmaps\multi\zanzibar," and points us to "basic_concrete.bitmap" in the shader setup portion of the map creation tutorial. But, when one goes in search of it, the bitmap and folder are nowhere to be found. We have no human or covenant shaders to work with, and I could not find any water shaders, leaving us to find out how to set up the shader_template for water properly ourselves. (It should also be noted that shader_template tags, while NOT accessible through the standard Guerilla tags list, ARE accessible by opening the referenced tag in a .shader, or simply double clicking them in the "all tags" view. Why one method of acess is locked and another is not is beyond me.)

In the gravity lifts section, we are pointed to "tags\scenarios\objects\multi\lockout\lockout_lift_ tube\lockout_lift_tube.crate". It is not included. We are also pointed to "tags\scenarios\objects\multi\halo\coagulation\powe rhaus\powerhaus.crate." It is not included. Not only are we deprived of exising gravity lifts listed in the help file, but due to H2Tool's strip-down, we cannot create our own. The only gravity lift that I could find was tags\scenarios\objects\marathon\gemini\jump_pad, and I'm sure anyone will agree that a one-size-fits-all approach to gravity lifts in the editink kit is going to put severe restrictions on what we can do in our maps.

Onto backgound sounds - as with other tags, we are severely deprived of them and are unable to make our own. We are given sounds for forerunner industrial interiors, a forest/bloodgulch-ish area, and some sound_scenery tags, which are generally used for adding to existing backgound and ambient sound. Also, we have another case of missing sound mentioned in the Help File - I could not find "tags\sound\ambience\turf\old_mombasa\new_mombasa.s ound_looping," which is given as a possible backgound sound tag in the sound effects section. The inability to make our own sounds is also restrictive on its own - part of creating and maintaining a level's feeling is sound. I had plans for a level based on an endless fall through an elevator shaft. Custom sounds (or at least, environmental sounds such as those from the part in The Oracle after you cut the cable) would add immensely to the feeling of being in a fast-moving forerunner platform.

Scenery is another thing that seems rather missing. This also includes "crate" tags. Granted, we can do instancing, but we cannot make our own crates, or create scenery that is inherintly supposed to be destroyed or damaged. (The covenant sheild device is a perfect example.) There is a very small amount of scenery and other bojects that create ambience to choose from, and I think that having them, or at least being able to make our own, would greatly improve any map.

I thank you for reading this.

[Roostervier]

I can open shader_templates fine, but everything else you mention is right. I have tried setting up a water shader my self as well... it just doesn't work for me, tbqh. I've no idea why either. I think it would be nice to have a full tagset otherwise let us make our own content. See, I am not going to complain about a lack of tags if I can make my own, but the fact that we can't forces me to do so, since I cannot make anything and actually make it look like I spent more than 5 minutes on it (Ok, huge exaggeration, but that is how I feel about the lack of assets).

[Kornman00]

Yeah, it would be nice to at least have a wider range of scenery from SP and MP maps for use to use for population :/

[Choking Victim]

I totally agree teh_lag, another problem I've had is I get to a point where I have a question that needs answering so i turn to the only thing given to us...a half-assed tutorial that doesn't explain anything about what I need. For example I needed to know what symbol to use to create fog planes or breakable surfaces and theres no mention of either in the tutorial. I've had more problems with this toolset than the custom edition one and that ones been out for what 4 years now? and it was free. The fact that we had to pay for this one is laughable.

Edit: Just found materials overview in the index my bad.

[Roostervier]

Technically this one is "free" with the game. Either way, it doesn't excuse the lack of tags.

[Masterz1337]

I blame MS for more mandates.

[Zeph]

Windows Live

[teh lag]

I fail to see how Windows Live would cause the removal of source material to build off of. As I mentioned, I can partially understand locking the toolset, as some maps could make it easier to get acheivments, etc. However, giving us so little scenery, or removing shaders that are referenced in the Help File, or providing very limited backgound sound... That I don't understand. Maps need atmosphere and mood, and we don't have enough content given to us to have a really big variation.

[Roostervier]

I fail to see how Windows Live would cause the removal of source material to build off of. As I mentioned, I can partially understand locking the toolset, as some maps could make it easier to get acheivments, etc. However, giving us so little scenery, or removing shaders that are referenced in the Help File, or providing very limited backgound sound... That I don't understand. Maps need atmosphere and mood, and we don't have enough content given to us to have a really big variation.
^IAWTP

Also, I should hope that the MP Tags wouldn't affect Windows Live negatively in our maps. If it was used in other, default, official maps, what would be the harm here?

Also, if the Devs are for some reason not allowed to talk about it, could you at least post that you aren't allowed? It's a lot better to know that than feel completely shunned by our only source of knowledge concerning the missing assets.

[Ki11a_FTW]

it doesnt even include tree tags :-(

[et_cg]

If you ask me, it's Microsofts and Hired Guns ability to keep us from creating custom content. If they remove the scenery, they remove the problem. If they remove the shaders, they increase time for people to think Nitrous' maps are the best.

[et_cg]

As always, the community got owned at the bat.

[Zeph]

I fail to see how Windows Live would cause the removal of source material to build off of. As I mentioned, I can partially understand locking the toolset, as some maps could make it easier to get acheivments, etc. However, giving us so little scenery, or removing shaders that are referenced in the Help File, or providing very limited backgound sound... That I don't understand. Maps need atmosphere and mood, and we don't have enough content given to us to have a really big variation.
Just take a look at CE. Mods were developed to the point of conversions with external applications playing an integral role, such as z-targeting for Zelda CE. Putting a limitation on it for something like like is a great way to keep any exploitations for the Live service. There's no alternative provided for wide area multiplay other than the Live service. Lets say you were able to create custom single player maps. You could create a simple box level and give it the same name as the classic maps. That right there breaks the achievement system for campaigns. Lets say you make a custom biped, you could make the whole model register as a head shot. That breaks the Live multiplayer achievements. Things like that are just the tip of the iceberg for things that would make the obsessive compulsive people working on Live overdose on advil. Honestly, I dont know if there are any OCD people at Live, but they have offered gamerscore based contests in the past. Any future ones would be endangered by H2V if the EK was open and integrated with Live.

Really, I get where you're comming from about things like sounds and such, but meh I see where they're comming from.

[Roostervier]

Just take a look at CE. Mods were developed to the point of conversions with external applications playing an integral role, such as z-targeting for Zelda CE. Putting a limitation on it for something like like is a great way to keep any exploitations for the Live service. There's no alternative provided for wide area multiplay other than the Live service. Lets say you were able to create custom single player maps. You could create a simple box level and give it the same name as the classic maps. That right there breaks the achievement system for campaigns. Lets say you make a custom biped, you could make the whole model register as a head shot. That breaks the Live multiplayer achievements. Things like that are just the tip of the iceberg for things that would make the obsessive compulsive people working on Live overdose on advil. Honestly, I dont know if there are any OCD people at Live, but they have offered gamerscore based contests in the past. Any future ones would be endangered by H2V if the EK was open and integrated with Live.

Really, I get where you're comming from about things like sounds and such, but meh I see where they're comming from.
We understand your point on things like a custom biped, etc. But what we are saying we don't understand is why they didn't just, at the least, give us a complete Multiplayer tagset. That is what doesn't make sense. If those tags in the tagset are used in all of the other mp maps, how is it possible to "cheat" for achievements? So, if they don't let us make our own custom objects, then they could at the very least provide us with the "Live-able" ones.

[Oxygen]

they give us an editing kit and tell us to make maps. we go to make maps and we realise we have no tags to work with. we go to make tags, and we realize we've got a locked editing kit. :wtc:

we obviously got the shaft.

...although, sometimes i wonder if possibly they just accidently left it out and they'll just put up a d/l once the game is officially released(wishful thinking).

but who can we complain to that would make a difference?

meanwhile, ima go have a chat with Mr. Bill Gates...


=Oxy

[Syuusuke]

Say hi to him for me...and start complainin.

[DaneO'Roo]

Good thing I can paint my own textures :win:


You bring up an excellent point, Lag. This bullshit is just coming 1 after the other. How are we supposed to make maps, when they're all going to look the same and use the same stuff?

[Pooky]

I fail to see how Windows Live would cause the removal of source material to build off of. As I mentioned, I can partially understand locking the toolset, as some maps could make it easier to get acheivments, etc. However, giving us so little scenery, or removing shaders that are referenced in the Help File, or providing very limited backgound sound... That I don't understand. Maps need atmosphere and mood, and we don't have enough content given to us to have a really big variation.

You know, that doesn't really make all that much sense, cause you could still make a map and populate it with nothing but snipers and stickies and get those achievements really easily

[Snaver]

You could also just create a gametype with snipers.. It's only achievements geez, if they did limit the EK for this reason, it was a stupid reason to..

[Zeph]

You know, that doesn't really make all that much sense, cause you could still make a map and populate it with nothing but snipers and stickies and get those achievements really easily

By their perspective, at least you would still have to aim for their head. And how is this different from a snipers gametype which already exsists?


But what we are saying we don't understand is why they didn't just, at the least, give us a complete Multiplayer tagset. That is what doesn't make sense.
As I said, I see why you're griping, but I see where they're coming from. I haven't bought H2V, and wont until it's well below 30 USD, so I cant go digging through the tags, editing kit, etc. and try to deduce the specific guesses. Without actually having it, and using what I know the best I can offer is there was/is a problem with getting the things you're asking for to be pulled from various shared caches and mandates for Live concerning file size.

[et_cg]

Okay, I know our senseless whining and disqust for this new way of making maps won't stop. But let's try to look at it from a more optomistic aspect.

They might release tags, not the ability to create them. A tagset, would be nice.

They might be a little nicer to us if they go forum digging any time soon.

We might get along if we just make maps and use instanced geometry in the mean time.

As for now, I gear towards creating an open set of shader templates coupled with bitmap examples. But my resources at the moment are low, and real examples are not very good.

I'm just creating boxes and testing surfaces with all the shader templates I can get to work.

[Pooky]

By their perspective, at least you would still have to aim for their head. And how is this different from a snipers gametype which already exsists?

Snipers was just an example. Okay, think of the killtacular achievements. Suppose I make a boxmap loaded ass full of frags and play on no shields. I just got more killtaculars than any Xbox player ever dreamed of. This isn't going to stop people from exploiting the map maker.

[DaneO'Roo]

The one thing we ALL wanted from the very start of even HEARING about halo 2 PC, was "creating awesome maps, utilising halo 2's engine with an awesome map maker". But instead, we got something we never thought we were getting, nor did we want. Achievements. Why give us something we weren't asking for, and severely fuck up the one thing we DID want? I really see no logical explanation.

[Pooky]

You know what's awesome. H2V is such a bad port that Gearbox's porting job is now eulogized in high and glowing reference. THAT's failure.

[redsteven]

Achievements are such a complete waste, ESPECIALLY multiplayer achievements. It's so easy just to get a friend to let you kill him 30 times in a row for achievement points, or get 3 guys to stand still while you get a triple kill cause you "want the achievement".

What's the point of them? I can think of no reason other than TRYING to make a system that in some tiny way represents skill, but... it just doesn't work like that at all.
And on the topic of achievements... you get the same achievement for beating a lvl on normal as you do for beating it on legendary. Idk... it just pissed me off. I don't really care about the points, its just that it seems so OBVIOUS to me that you should have a few separate achievements for legendary, like completing the levels.

[ejburke]

Honestly, I don't buy the Achievements theory. They're so trivial, lame, and easy to acquire within a wekk of playing, that nobody should HAVE to cheat to get them. And if they were so concerned, they could have easily disabled them for custom content.

The real reason is Microsoft, as usual, looking out for number one. They wanted to be able to put that "map editor" bullet point on the box to get us rubes to buy a game we already own a second time, but beyond the bare minumum of that requirement, they didn't want to pay to document, test, or support anything else. Things that weren't required, but would have made the community happy fell under a scorched earth policy.

I'm not pulling this out of my ass. Halo Custom Edition had to be a seperate, unsupported game because of Microsoft's cheap bastardly ways. If Gearbox hadn't stepped up and shouldered the burden themselves, the HEK would have turned out eerily similar to the H2EK. That is, if it ever would have come out at all.

Say what you want about Gearbox, but I felt like they had our back. Ultimately, they couldn't stop MS from screwing us over, but they fought for us. I don't feel the same way about Hired Gun. I don't think we're even n Bungie's radar. And while Pi Studios obviously cares, they're much smaller than Gearbox and have other projects.

We're on our own, guys. I would be absolutely shocked if we got any assistance at all from any developer that has the power to make our lives easier. There's just not enough money in it for them, or at least that's how the short-sighted suits at Microsoft -- the same guys that won't let Epic release free Gears of War content -- perceive it.

[Oxygen]

it's sad, really. games used to be about having a good time and all...now it's all just about the money. no one cares about the players or the communities, it's all about "how can we fit as little as possible in for the highest price?" no one is going to stick up for us, weather we like it or not. o well...


=Oxy

[Pooky]

Say what you want about Gearbox, but I felt like they had our back. Ultimately, they couldn't stop MS from screwing us over, but they fought for us. I don't feel the same way about Hired Gun. I don't think we're even n Bungie's radar. And while Pi Studios obviously cares, they're much smaller than Gearbox and have other projects.

I agree Gearbox did pretty good with the community, I just don't think they did as good a job as we would have liked of porting Halo

[teh lag]

I've been giving this alot of thought lately. While looking at Nitro's map, Earth City, I noticed a few things.

1. It uses a sky we were not given and cannot replicate.
2. It uses scenery that we were not given.(The various cars and fire emitters)
3. It uses shaders that we were not given.(The human metropolis metals.)

Conclusion : These are things that quite plainley do not affect any sort of "traditional gameplay," or the map would not have been allowed to be released. We simply have been given a toolset that discourages map creation beyond a very strictly set guide. It also seems that the devs (for whatever reason) are not allowed to discuss the subject of missing content or tool functions - I have noticed a trend of them suddenly abandoning a topic after those subjects are brought up. (Anyone wants to disprove me here, you;re more than welcome.) As ejburke accurately put it, we're on our own, and there's not much we can do about it. I have some hope that maybe we'll get a Gbx-esque unsupported full EK, but it's probably just clinging onto a sinking ship's mast. I suppose we should just make the best of what we have, which isn't much above the first months of CE. Hell, even then we had a humane selection of scenery.

[et_cg]

I've been giving this alot of thought lately. While looking at Nitro's map, Earth City, I noticed a few things.

1. It uses a sky we were not given and cannot replicate.
2. It uses scenery that we were not given.(The various cars and fire emitters)
3. It uses shaders that we were not given.(The human metropolis metals.)

Conclusion : These are things that quite plainley do not affect any sort of "traditional gameplay," or the map would not have been allowed to be released. We simply have been given a toolset that discourages map creation beyond a very strictly set guide. It also seems that the devs (for whatever reason) are not allowed to discuss the subject of missing content or tool functions - I have noticed a trend of them suddenly abandoning a topic after those subjects are brought up. (Anyone wants to disprove me here, you;re more than welcome.) As ejburke accurately put it, we're on our own, and there's not much we can do about it. I have some hope that maybe we'll get a Gbx-esque unsupported full EK, but it's probably just clinging onto a sinking ship's mast. I suppose we should just make the best of what we have, which isn't much above the first months of CE. Hell, even then we had a humane selection of scenery.


If you read much of my posts, I deffinately clarify that. Post, after post, after pos....

I think you get the idea.

[Vicky]

Ok, so i realy dug into the editor today... tried some ce maps the other day and some of them simply compiled and showed up in sapien, put a spawnpoint on it et voila i could walk on them. Tried a new map today, after the initial 5 mins of toying with 3ds i had my map to try, shaders were tricky but sort of worked it out (with help of the cheesenips-video)... ok so there we go, spawnpoints, some flags, vehicles, teleporters and... and... wait, maybe a tree?.... a rock?.... a bit of grass?.... Well this is just what u ppl describe here... it's really ashame. Bought the game, waited for 18 months?? It runs but doesn't run that smooth, not even on high spec pc's (i've read)... it's still fun to play though, but making ur own maps would rock with all that new content.... what content? I hope they will release most of the tags soon.

Just my 2 pennies for a dollar :confused: