If I Were A Halo 2 Vista Developer

[Nick]

I would completely lack the urge to help just about any damn one of you guys.

I've seen the forum fill over the past month with smart ass remarks, insults, disrespect, and generally unpleasant comments towards Microsoft / Bungie / Hired Gun / Pi Studios. Sure you have a right to be angry that a bug wasn't caught during testing, that files were left out, or that the tools failed to meet your expectations, but you don't have the right to be jerks because such issues exist.

I could go on a long rant about how bugs should be expected even in shipping software (it's a fact of the SDLC, that's why patching technologies exist), about how it isn't as simple as you believe it is to develop and test software, and about how some calls are simply out of your hands when you work under contract. However, I will spare you, since I can already predict the empty and ignorant comments that certain individuals would make.

Instead, I am here to make some suggestions. These suggestions are in the best interests of the Halo 2 Vista community as well as the Halo 2 Vista developers. Mature individuals should be able to understand these suggestions instantaneously; immature individuals may require a bit more time to process them.
1. No Insults. Yes, you're frustrated that whatever problem you are having even exists, but that is no reason to blow off steam here. Go count to ten and collect your thoughts before firing off a post or new thread.

2. No Demands. Yes, you want your problem fixed and yes, you want it now. No, you should not demand it. The minute someone demands something of me, as opposed to kindly requesting it, is the minute I stop caring they have a problem.

The developers browsing this forum are in no way obligated to go and fix bugs for you; they are obligated to take bug reports from Microsoft's internal testing team and fix them based on the priority assigned to each bug report. However, if you are nice about it, they just may feel motivated to log your bug and work on a fix for the next patch that will eventually be released.

3. Clear and Concise. Describe the problem in detail, but do so in a way that is to the point; there is no reason to give a full background as to why you think something happened or what you ate for lunch while it was happening. Use lists and text formatting to assist in showing order of events and important steps.

4. Your Viewpoint. Explain what you expected to happen instead of what actually happened. Last I checked, humans were not capable of mind reading outside of science fiction; you have to communicate why you think the behavior is wrong.

5. No Expectations. That's right, don't have any. Even if you do all of the above, there is no guarantee that your issue will be addressed by a developer or fixed in the next path. You did what you could - you publicly documented the issue and gave others a chance to verify the issue; now all you can do is hope it gets fixed.

6. Reply. If you see an issue reported in the forum and you also have that issue, reply stating that. The more people that have an issue the more attention it is likely to get. Don't lie just to get your friend's issue more attention, that would be ... unintelligent. When replying, keep the above points in mind - no insults, no demands, and be nice. If you have some relevant information regarding the bug or want to provide more details than the original poster, go for it.
Here is an example:
Good Forum User[/COLOR]"]While using text chat in-game, I noticed an issue that prevents me from being able to properly communicate with other players.
Reassign the team chat toggle to an alphabetic key (Y).
Initiate a global message using the key assigned to global text messages (B).
Type any message that contains the key assigned to team chat toggle (Y).This causes the global text chat to close and a fresh text box to be displayed for team chat, making it impossible to send any global text messages containing the team chat toggle key.

Thank you for looking into this issue. If anyone else is having this problem, please reply as confirmation of this issue.And here's an example of what NOT to do:
Bad Forum User[/COLOR]"]Man you guys suck. Halo 2 is filled with so many bugs I can't even use the damn chat; this sucks more than Gearbox's mess that was Halo 1 PC. Don't you guys know how to code anything? How about testing your software before making me pay all this money for it. If you hit the team chat key while making a message it just screws up and gets rid of what I was typing. HURRY UP AND PATCH THIS CRAP ALREADY OR I AM GOING TO SUE.

Anybody else having this problem? Of course you are. Spread this thread around and get all the replies you can so we can send it to Bungie and tell them to screw themselves, since they suck anyway. We have a RIGHT to this being fixed RIGHT NOW!Hopefully this has been an informative post and the poor condition of this forum will improve in short order.

Thank you for reading.

Nick

[phase]

Hevens another person with more rep and less posts then me!
Anyways +rep.

[dg]

This is a great thread. Very well said, Nick.

[Masterz1337]

Bout time someone said it.

[Zeph]

I'm surprised someone actually came forth and made a thread about it.

[Chronos]

I totally agree on everything you mentioned above.

Besides the high specs that you need to have to run this, I'm very pleased with this game and I think Hired Gun did a great job.

Also, I think someone should make this into a sticky post.

[TheGhost]

Great thread and points. +rep!

[Llama Juice]

Well said, I found it funny though how the "bad forum user" still had proper sentence structure and whatnot... when... well... you guys all know the truth.

[SnaFuBAR]

not surprisingly, you're not the only one to feel like this, and you're not the only one to make the appropriate steps to see the solution to the undesireable positon we're in.

not to mention the irony of your opening paragraph....

I've seen the forum fill over the past month with smart ass remarks, insults, disrespect, and generally unpleasant comments

[DOMINATOR]

it's the internet...

[Dole]

2. No Demands. Yes, you want your problem fixed and yes, you want it now. No, you should not demand it. The minute someone demands something of me, as opposed to kindly requesting it, is the minute I stop caring they have a problem.
In theory, as nice and dandy as this sounds in writing, and as benevolent as your aspirations are and as much as I admire your sentiments... You're forgetting that they're not a freelance mod team; these are experienced people getting paid to make a decent (modest terminology) port of an existing game [that was a smash hit for years on X-Box and was a good enough, if not better game, mind you] to a brand-new Windoes OS.

People who already had the game for X-Box want to know that their fifty bucks spent buying the same game over again for a new console is well worth it: if they were promised special user-editable features, they damn well want them. Hell, some people even moved over to the buggy new Vista OS primarily in anticipation of this game's release. Once again, they want to know their expenses weren't in vain.
The fact that half of the features of the map editor they purchased is unusable is advertising under a false pretense, and so those who produced the port are directly and immediately responsible to accede to the demands of the comsumers and are obligated to make amends ASAP, especially considering how many times this game has been delayed and recalled already.

Then add to that the fact that they are being employed by a corporate giant whose aim is to build revenue and attract business for Windows Vista, and then this situation is unexcusable and the complaints are justified. Capitalism, my friends: supply and demand. This is bigger than a bunch of college students budgeting time for some video game mods, this is business. The customer is ALWAYS right.


No, if you were a Halo 2 Vista developer you wouldn't be whining; you'd be glad you had an opportunity to work on this project or that you even had work at all, and you would be striving to get this done to make sure you're signed up for another project in the future. If people are satisfied and the game is successful, likewise your studio will prosper and game companies will recognize you to produce their games and so is your only option to get ahead... otherwise you're dead in the water. The minute you stop caring there's a problem is the minute your ass gets fired.
Besides, how many individual people are there who would actually be so nasty as to address this problem directly to the studio without taking a formal approach? Anything less than that isn't even considered valid communication; on the intermediary level between supplier and consumer, a professional, humble demeanor is implicit.
However, when the tacit, ubiquitous message of an entire community imposes demands, the studio has no option other than to react accordingly.

Don't flout benevolency, don't get too full of yourself in matters of conscience, and don't get yourself carried away by the rants of twelve year olds.

[Con]

Editing Kit does not provide enough in various areas
The CE community is based on the idea that we can express ourselves through this hobby. The Editing Kit has proven to be dissapointing in that it doesn't let us do this.

low amount of editable tags
low amount of example tags and available resources to work with (textures, shaders, ambient sounds, scenery, gravity lifts, etc)
poor documentation on more advanced features of the editing kit (water, glass, gravity lifts)
the tutorial references resources that don't exist
some parts of the tutorial are wrong; as in they cause errors that the player needs to work around (I heard this occurs before lightmaps are created, and unless they are created before importing into sapien you get a corruped file error, or something along those lines)
Demensions not provided (I heard this as well)
Exporter doesn't already work with max 9

The editing kit is key here; there's more to map-making than just the level. This new editing kit is not encouraging much from the community in terms of creativity. Those hopeful to make content for h2v have had to take their business elsewhere, along with their potential players.

I really hope this is adressed. The community is one of your best assets. Keep it happy.

The graphics engine?
I am not an expert in this area, but myself and many others have noticed how inefficient the graphics are in Halo 2 for Vista. It uses a lot of resources for little gain. It is not comparable to the standards set by other games.

Even with computer specs much higher than the minimum required for the game, players are still have performance issues;
The game stutters and performs extremely poorly for a very long time upon loading a SP level (it takes 2GB of ram to fix this issue!)
The game is said not to take advantage of Shader Model 3.0
We are not provided with very many graphics options in the menu. It would be great to have the options provided in other games these days.
Forcing Anisotropic Filtering or other options through things such as the Nvidia Control Panel result in the game performing extremely slowly for something that is not demanding in other engines. The mouse begins to "lag" a lot, or be delayed in its response when this happens (can take up to a second for it to start turning the player after moving the mouse)Whether or not you would be able to updating the game to fix these issues is beyong me. Good luck?


I have a load mor eof these, this is just a summarization of a page or so of notes I've been taking on h2v issues. There's still a few more pages I have, maybe I'll post them tomorrow.

[kusanagikei]

First of all props to Nick. I honestly cant stand the whining that some of these forum users have. Nothing but, "I don't have vista", "I can't afford vista", "wtf! this game sucks", "this is a shitty port".

I think that a lot of people need to suck it up about the vista issue. It just is that way. It's also done now, out on vista, the discussion is over. Also, for the people whining, let's see a better port.

I think that regardless of how well any of you think Hired Gun did, they did do an admirable job under the certain restrictions they faced. First of all, I'm sure it wasn't they're idea to run it on vista.

Secondly, I have had no problems with the actual game. Any crashes I received were purely that of vista. While it sucks, I'm gonna have to do what everyone else should do and bite my lip and wait until the issues are resolved.

And lastly, if you think the xbox version is better, feel free to stop playing your vista version and stop bugging everyone on the forums about your personal complaints about the vista version. If all of you would keep the bashing to one thread it might be fine, I can decide to not read it. But people seem insitent of spreading the hate all around as much as they can. Give it a rest.

[Dr Nick]

Ummm, Well, that does make a lot of sense, but the problem is that nobody will remember this. What we need to do is, as the "Bad Forum User" would say, spread the word around the whole website.

Also, though I've only been here a couple of days, I haven't seen any overly disrespectful threads here. The ones I see of people having problems is basically people saying "I have this problem. Does anybody else? And if so, what were your settings/how did you find the problem/etc".

[Nick]

In theory, as nice and dandy as this sounds in writing, and as benevolent as your aspirations are and as much as I admire your sentiments... You're forgetting that they're not a freelance mod team; these are experienced people getting paid to make a decent (modest terminology) port of an existing game [that was a smash hit for years on X-Box and was a good enough, if not better game, mind you] to a brand-new Windoes OS.Sorry Dole, you are simply wrong. I will explain though, so no worries that you are simply being silenced without logical reasoning.

Who is this freelance mod team you speak of and how is such a comment relevant to treating others with respect? I am not forgetting that the Halo 2 Vista developers are professionals under contract with Microsoft Game Studios to produce a port of a Microsoft property, of which Microsoft retains full control over and makes executive decisions about. Do not assume, thank you.


People who already had the game for X-Box want to know that their fifty bucks spent buying the same game over again for a new console is well worth it: if they were promised special user-editable features, they damn well want them. Hell, some people even moved over to the buggy new Vista OS primarily in anticipation of this game's release. Once again, they want to know their expenses weren't in vain.You act as if those who purchased the game for the Xbox are somehow special compared to those who did not purchase it for the Xbox; they are not. Such customers should have had the same expectations as every other customer: a port of the Halo 2 game as it was on the Xbox, plus the ability to create custom maps. If they expected more than that, it was their own indiscretion that lead them to make poor assumptions about what they would be receiving for their $50.


The fact that half of the features of the map editor they purchased is unusable is advertising under a false pretense, and so those who produced the port are directly and immediately responsible to accede to the demands of the comsumers and are obligated to make amends ASAP, especially considering how many times this game has been delayed and recalled already. I would love for you to provide me with an official press release outlining details of features that would be a part of the editing kit that have since been removed without notice prior to the game's release. Just because people assumed it would have the exact same functionality as the Halo 1 editing kit does not mean that was ever promised. A map creation tool was promised and a map creation tool was delivered; I wish it did more but I received what was advertised - something that creates new maps.


Then add to that the fact that they are being employed by a corporate giant whose aim is to build revenue and attract business for Windows Vista, and then this situation is unexcusable and the complaints are justified. Capitalism, my friends: supply and demand. This is bigger than a bunch of college students budgeting time for some video game mods, this is business. The customer is ALWAYS right. If you think that the Halo 2 developers that browse these forums are some how required to listen to your demands, then you are sorely mistaken. Yes, the customer has a right to demand fixes from the manufacturer for product defects, but that typically must occur through the proper channels (which would be Microsoft's support website), not an unofficial forum. The point of this thread is that if you would like the Halo 2 Vista developers that browse these forums to seriously consider your requests, stop being jerks.

Hmm, you go on to reference college students budgeting to make video game mods? Who is talking about college students selling video game mods? Please keep your posts on topic, thank you.


No, if you were a Halo 2 Vista developer you wouldn't be whining; you'd be glad you had an opportunity to work on this project or that you even had work at all, and you would be striving to get this done to make sure you're signed up for another project in the future. If people are satisfied and the game is successful, likewise your studio will prosper and game companies will recognize you to produce their games and so is your only option to get ahead... otherwise you're dead in the water. The minute you stop caring there's a problem is the minute your ass gets fired.Who said the Halo 2 Vista developers are whining? If you think I am one, you are mistaken; I am just a logical individual who knows the hardships of software development and the ungratefulness of users, and I am also someone who browses these forums and am tired of reading the same temper tantrums daily.

You make a whole lot of assumptions about the video game business and the studios involved with the Halo 2 port. Hired Gun is an internally formed Microsoft Game Studios team created to port the game. Pi Studios was hired to work on the editing kit and assets (the two new maps). I am pretty sure Hired Gun is not too worried about being hired by someone ... themselves, as they are all Microsoft employees who were shuffled into a new team or newly hired. Pi Studios has worked on four Call of Duty games and Mercenaries 2 for the PS2; I don't think they are too worried about the impact of Halo 2 Vista on their studio. Lastly, Gearbox has gone on to make its own IP after the bumpy ride that was Halo 1 PC.

Really though, it comes down to what I was saying earlier. Microsoft calls the shots on what gets fixed, so nobody is going to get fired unless Microsoft tells them to do something and they do not do it.


Besides, how many individual people are there who would actually be so nasty as to address this problem directly to the studio without taking a formal approach? Anything less than that isn't even considered valid communication; on the intermediary level between supplier and consumer, a professional, humble demeanor is implicit.
However, when the tacit, ubiquitous message of an entire community imposes demands, the studio has no option other than to react accordingly.I suppose you are missing the entire point, though maybe you have picked up on it over the course of this post. If you want the Halo 2 Vista developers that browse these forums to give your issue more than a glance, be helpful in your description of the issue and avoid being a jerk. Think of them as people with all the right connections and, if they like you, they can maybe help you out; but they are not obligated to like you or to help you out, so treat them with some respect for your benefit and theirs.

Now that we've clarified the difference between official channels (http://support.microsoft.com/ph/12429) to report bugs and unofficial channels (http://www.h2vista.net/forums/../forums) the Halo 2 Vista developers browse at their leisure, we can continue on with the thread. Thank you for your participation.

Nick

[YCH]

While I agree that whining won't help the situation, it certainly is, in many cases, warranted when it comes to Halo 2 Vista.

I am generally a patient person when it comes to games and siding developers when it seems reasonable, but Halo 2 Vista, whether due to problems of the Vista OS itself, or the time/budget constraints, or lack of skill on the developers' side, or a combination of all of these and more, is a pretty sorry product when I consider it (and it pains me in a way to say this considering I'm a huge Halo fan and of PC gaming).

Let's see why.

First, my PC specs (pretty acceptable machine - it's nearly 2 years old so gimme a break :P):

- Athlon X2 64 (2.7GHz)
- nVidia GeForce 7800 GT SLI (w/ latest official drivers at the time of install)
- 2 GB RAM
- Creative X-Fi (w/ latest official drivers at the time of install)
- Windows Vista Business

1) Installation was a headache. First, I tried to install the game but I got some kind of weird error message "Live gaming cannot be initialized..." Had to restart PC to fix this. Weird thing was, it was a fresh boot anyway before I tried to install the game the first time. So once I got installation going, I decided to try Tray and Play. Well now - for some reason the opening video chopped so badly (it flickered black and kept turning my LCD monitor on and off standby) that the game crashed. I then decided to reinstall the game fully before trying to play. Same deal with the opening video but somehow the game survived enough to go to the main menu. Later by elimination I guessed (and correctly so) that the latest official video drivers were the cause of many instabilities, so I installed the 160.03 beta drivers and it worked better. Well, so much for fuss-free gaming. I can say this was one of the most frustrating game installs I've had in years.

2) The online gaming system is inconvenient. The process of signing up for Live Gaming is confusing, as it seemed repetitious and I had to try several times before getting it right. Again, zero score for ease of getting into online gaming if you didn't already have a gamertag. Also, about the only thing I can do is browse servers for a game or create a local game. Luckily, I'm not big on online gaming so this wasn't a huge loss to me.

3) Now comes the big kahuna - the game features and quirks. The general feeling I get from Halo 2 Vista is that it plainly feels crippled, stupid, robbed of greatness and what have you.
a) Auto-aim with the 360 gamepad. FFS give me a break. This forum has some very good posts that illustrate the auto-aim. When it comes to gamepad vs mouse/kb, you can't add auto-aim to only one controller type and think you can "have your cake and eat it." It's unfair and I think any PC gamer who wants to use a gamepad for an FPS should suffer the consequences. Gamepads are horrible for FPS games no question about it; they're only bearable on consoles because of games being built around the their limitations and auto-aim is a byproduct of that.
b) No co-op gameplay on the PC? Argh. Shafted yet again.
c) Generally poor performance and video related bugs. I usually like to run my games at around 60-100 frames per second to maintain the fluidity I like. And to do that on Halo 2, I have to run the game at 800*600 w/4xAA multisampled and supersampled transparency AA (oh lord gotta smooth out the jaggies). And that's if SLI is enabled properly (to do that I have to toggle some video feature, like resolution or AA level to "trick" the game into restarting the video subsystem and detecting the SLI mode - this has to be done after each level or I'll suffer single video card performance). Why 800*600 resolution? Because the game is so fill-rate heavy. I don't know how it sucks up the fill rate like crazy when my 7800GT in SLI is so many times faster than a Geforce3 that's in the Xbox (to be fair, I think my system running Halo 2 vista running at slightly higher resolution with anti-aliasing vs the Xbox version is much smoother latter version but compared to current games the performance is not commensurate with the graphical details). Later in the game, especially in the forest-y levels I have to bump the AA level down a notch to maintain 50fps during firefights. This would all be okay if Halo 2 looked much better than it did. I think it looks bearable, but mostly because the art design still holds up. Technically it's dated as hell.
d) Mouse controls seem a little iffy. It's like there's some acceleration built-in no matter what. It throws my aim off in general, and luckily in single player it's not that big of a deal. In multi-player I'm sure I would be pissed, especially when going up against auto-aim enhanced gamepad wielding bastards. This forum has a few threads about the mouse acceleration issue.
e) Non skippable video intro. Do I have to watch that stupid intro every time I play? Is there no command line option for me to disable it? If it played properly it would still be bearable, but SLI makes the video flicker black every other frame. Okay, so even if this is nVidia's fault, at least give me the option to skip the video intros, eh? I had to resort to replacing the intro videos with empty files renamed with the actual video names.
f) No user save-points slots. What if I wanted to replay a fun previous level without losing my current save-point? Oh I can't. And for no good reason either. In Halo PC at least I could save the previous save point and go back to it later.

I could think of some more reasons to be pissed at the whole situation, but it's late and I need to sleep soon. In short, the only reason I bought this game was because I love the Halo universe and I couldn't wait to play as Master Chief again on a PC with proper mouse and keyboard controls. Hey, it's here finally but boy just count the number of compromises. I still had fun with the single-player campaign, but there's just this nagging feeling that it could have been so much more.

[Nick]

While I agree that whining won't help the situation, it certainly is, in many cases, warranted when it comes to Halo 2 Vista.I think you are missing the point in general here, give my reply to Dole a read. Basically, I am certainly not saying that you should not complain about problems with the game, I am simply saying that people need to have a better approach to it.

This is an unofficial forum, which means that anything complained about here does not necessarily get passed along to the proper individuals responsible for fixing it. However, I can tell you right now that if I were a Halo 2 Vista developer (and there are a few registered here that browse the forums, if you didn't know), I would be far more likely to log bugs reported and pass them along to the proper people if they were brought up in a mature, descriptive, and generally constructive way.

Nick

[YCH]

I think you are missing the point in general here, give my reply to Dole a read. Basically, I am certainly not saying that you should not complain about problems with the game, I am simply saying that people need to have a better approach to it.

This is an unofficial forum, which means that anything complained about here does not necessarily get passed along to the proper individuals responsible for fixing it. However, I can tell you right now that if I were a Halo 2 Vista developer (and there are a few registered here that browse the forums, if you didn't know), I would be far more likely to log bugs reported and pass them along to the proper people if they were brought up in a mature, descriptive, and generally constructive way.

Nick

I suppose, but it would also help if I didn't feel so much as being equivalently given the finger or shat on in terms of buying a game from a consumer's experience standpoint. Some of these things are massive oversights that whoever's fault it is needs to be fired. I can stomach a few bugs here and there but I've faced enough showstopping bugs, stupid "features" and lack of flexibility that the only thing that kept me going is my general literacy with technical/computer stuff and my love for Halo. I mean, I was so excited about this game's release that I pre-ordered the game and went off work a little early to pick it up on the first day of release, only to spend 2 hours getting it to run somewhat properly. Only after a week or two of continuous testing and tweaking do I have it running as best as it can under the current circumstances.

If the two PC ports of the Halo games are any indication, Halo 3 will probably suffer an underwhelming port as well. Seriously, think about it: Halo is about as big as they come in the current gaming industry and with the number of problems and plain lack of polish and fanfare with the PC release, you would think this is a B title or something. Is this really all Microsoft and co can muster for it's most valuable gaming title on its belt? Is this the best they can do for the platform that the company built their base on? Maybe the PC platform is really the middle child of gaming now.

Well, I hope my previous post was at least somewhat descriptive of the problems I had with the game while giving me the chance to rant.

[DaneO'Roo]

Well, the way I see it, all the complaints and flames have been well merited, based on the stagering amount of flaws, unescesary shit/screw ups in the game.

But I understand about being more passive about it. I realise HG and such aren't to blame. It's the decision makers I'm concerned with.

[jahrain]

Nick of all people calling us jerks for insulting and disrespectful posts? I feel disrespected and insulted :mad:, wait what was this thread about again? Oh yeah, saying 'please and thank you' and "asking nicely" for bugs and issues to be resolved and addressed. This is sad to say the least :(.

Anyways, If I were a halo 2 vista developer, I would have pushed for more quality assurance before release. Also, I would try to address issues as they were posted or give acknowledgment that these issues are being noted or worked on rather than staying freakishly quiet about it regardless of the negative or disrespectful tone from users, as they are customers. It would no doubtfully change the tone of these users and put them at ease to know that they are being heard and replied to from a developer. I would also realize that this is the internets and I would empathize the frustration users may be experiencing and rather see them take it out on the internet rather than on their baby sister or wife. I guess this is because I don't consider myself an arrogant person and I'm not afraid to be open or honest. But probably won't be allowed to say such if microsoft doesn't officially announce or release what is allowed to be said or address first. But I would at least try to show that I care the best I can to try and change the tone of an angry community.

I think the growing negativity here is because of the eerie silence from bungie, microsoft, pie, and hired gun on the game. Yes there is some interaction happening on these forums with the developers, but some people are beginning to feel like their soft polite voice is not being heard which contributes to growing frustration and push comes to shove and critique comes to insults. Its getting to be almost a month now since the game was first released, and no updates or even announcements of them, no bugs or issues have been officially addressed, (no, hot coffee 2 doesn't count), and its beginning to get that oh so scary "with so few players online, so many bugs and issues, and so many angry customers all over the internet forums; its such a failure, theres nothing left to do but abandon it" feeling with the game. I don't ever want to see that happen. But when one is quiet in a bad situation, others will assume the worst about it. Thats just real life.

[ejburke]

I can still hate every last Microsoft product manager, right? Good. :p

[Roostervier]

I agree on this manner. Surely we can all address the problems accordingly? Though, most of these aggressions are rooted in the correct cause. Don't get me wrong, the people flaming should not, but I would never, ever, say they do not have the right to do so. People have the right to do almost anything. It is just how society handles ones actions that prevents us, in our better judgment, and interests, from acting in such ways.

Now, leaving that behind, I do believe that in supply and demand, the producer will suffer if the consumer decides not to consume, no? It is in their right for Microsoft to deny us any thing, really, but is that completely in their best interest? If they take this approach with all the games they are marketing, it would really hurt them. They need the consumer, and to keep the consumer, they keep him happy. If the game is not is not up to a quality standard, then it will make them suffer. One game won't do it, but from experience with others I know, if they start on the track, they typically don't get off.

The people always have a right to complain. I know you are merely suggesting to do it in another matter, which is respectful, but it is within our rights to expect a good game. If they make one that we do not see as such, we have the right to refrain from purchasing that game (of course). Though, when the game is really not to standard, and they advertise saying that they really look forward to custom maps, they sure as hell better not disappoint people with lack of tools, and assets, because word goes around. Now, you may say I have no proof it was advertised to come with all of the multiplayer assets, though I distinctly remember hearing so in one of those videos. And since I have failed to find said video, I offer you this: The proof is in the fact that in the help file itself, there are references to non existent tags. That is purely unacceptable and should not be tolerated. It is completely fair for everyone to complain. Also, putting on the front cover "Includes Map Editor" is just low when you really fail to include one that can really do anything. It is as if they put that on there as a marketing ploy in order to trick the lesser knowing buyer into getting it. They don't know what the editing kit could be capable of, why complain? If that was not their true cause for placing that label on the front, then I would like to ask, what is?

[UXB]

1. No Insults.
2. No Demands.
3. Clear and Concise.
4. Your Viewpoint.
5. No Expectations.
6. Reply (to existing issues).

The term "common Sense" is a misnomer because it is not so common after all.

these are experienced people getting paid to make a decent (modest terminology) port of an existing game What you fail to realize is that that they are also under the direction of the company, in this case Microsoft, to deliver what Microsoft deems an acceptable product: One that fits their overall marketing strategy for games for Windows Live. That may not be what you specifically think is an acceptable product. Only Microsoft can make the determination of the game's success or failure in the market they chose to peruse. You and I are not privy to that decision or plan. All we can do is register our dissatisfaction by keeping our wallets closed.

Editing Kit does not provide enough in various areas
The CE community is based on the idea that we can express ourselves through this hobby. Quite frankly the Halo CE community, as zealous as they are, are not the primary market for this game. The HCE community is very small compared to the buying public. I can pretty much assure you that complains about the editing kit will fall on deaf ears. I bogged about it http://h2v.halomaps.org/?nid=411 in a rant on the Halo 2 Vista Maps website. There are valid business reasons to not allow as much freedom in the editing kit as with Halo CE.

While I agree that whining won't help the situation, it certainly is, in many cases, warranted when it comes to Halo 2 Vista. Caveat Emptor my friend, which is Latin for “Buyer Beware”. Whining in public is never and option. Which is not to say that you now allowed to dislike or disagree with something in the product, however full scale whining is more an indication that you didn’t do your homework and research the product before you bought it. Marketing people generally disregard the opinions of those who whine. They do, however, respect non-insulting, clear and concise, logically reasoned opinions of and about the product. And that is the point Nick is making.

Nick of all people calling us jerks for insulting and disrespectful posts? I feel disrespected and insultedIn my opinion, this response is not warranted based on the subject and point of the thread. I am not going to try and play mediator between you and Nick because I haven’t the stomach to research the source of the animosity that has built up between the two of you. All I know is that in the few threads I have read here you two have been sniping at each other like an old unhappily married couple. Quite frankly it does not do justice to either of you.



The term "common Sense" is a misnomer because it is not so common after all.




I can still hate every last Microsoft product manager, right? Good. :p
Only after you have met them all :) There was this one particularly statuesque young lady with an enchanting smile I am sure you would not want to hate.;)

[Zeph]

Why do you insist on calling us jerks, Nick? Its very insulting.

Perhaps if you read his posts, you'd understand why. Oh wait, people dont do that anymore.....

[Dole]

What you fail to realize is that that they are also under the direction of the company, in this case Microsoft, to deliver what Microsoft deems an acceptable product: One that fits their overall marketing strategy for games for Windows Live.
If Microsoft though it was an acceptable product they wouldn't have delayed it's release twice in a row and then recalled it shortly after.


Caveat Emptor my friend, which is Latin for “Buyer Beware”.
Buyer Beware? This isn't a flea market, Dennis.


Who said the Halo 2 Vista developers are whining? If you think I am one, you are mistaken; I am just a logical individual who knows the hardships of software development and the ungratefulness of users, and I am also someone who browses these forums and am tired of reading the same temper tantrums daily.
When did I say H2V devs were whining, or that you were an H2V dev?
I said verbatum, "if YOU were an H2V developer, YOU would not be whining."

[bum has knife]

Very interesting topic. I wonder what the Hired Gun "community manager" has to say about it...

I guess first I should introduce myself. I am the Technical Artist on the Hired Gun team. If you look at the credits you'll see one artist, thats me. We are a pretty small team over here so ... I'm also now the "community manager". I'll do my best to address you guys more often but you should understand that you won't see a response to every thread and there are some questions that I simply cannot answer. I'm trying to monitor as many forums as I can but thats a daunting task. I don't mind PMs at all but if I get as many of those as there are threads then I won't be able to read all of those either.

Now back on topic, Nick has made some good points that I would like to address.

Here are the most important things in my opinion:
3. Clear and Concise.
6. Reply.

If I can't understand what it is that you're trying to tell me then its even harder for me to relay that information. Also, more frequent problems bubble up faster, but as Nick says, don't lie. That ain't cool.

As the guy who has to read and pass along information from the community I will weigh in on these two:
1. No Insults.
2. No Demands.

Ok, so I'm getting pretty good at filtering out the insults and skimming to the actual issue. Trust me, it wasn't easy to get to that point though. I can understand your anger though and you can insult me or my team all you want but I can assure you it doesn't amount to much. We all want the best game so I will not ignore a legitimate issue just because someone was laying into us at the same time. The issue will be passed on, not the anger.

You can make your suggestions and consider them demands but that leads us to another of his points:
5. No Expectations.

I can speak for everyone here on the Hired Gun team and assure you that we do care about our game and the community. We are evaluating every suggestion/issue that we see and we will use that feedback to make a better game.

Thanks,
Bum

[Snaver]

Nice to meet you, now lets get these issues sorted, lets huddle community!

P.S you should probably make this the primary forum you visit often, collectively it has the best members honest :p

[UXB]

If Microsoft though it was an acceptable product they wouldn't have delayed it's release twice in a row and then recalled it shortly after.Misinterpreting facts does not your point make. You do not know what the reasons were for any delays. There may have been issue with production schedules, Artwork, printed material, duplication, market timing, shipping schedules, or programming tweaks decided to be added or changed at the last minute. Unless you are in the loop at MS you do not know. The reason for the "recall" was very public. It was an unintentional "Easter egg" that caused an issue with the Game code ratings which has legal ramifications in the US. Or didn’t you wonder why Australia had the game before the US did?


Buyer Beware? This isn't a flea market, Dennis.Actually, the whole system is and if you think differently then you are in for a big surprise later in life. You need to educate yourself before you buy anything and that includes corporate made products or Tee shirts from a street vender.

[Dr Nick]

What I'm starting to think now, is that Steve Ballmer says it better than anyone else: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zEQhhaJsU4

I understand that trying to keep gamers from hacking to get advantages has its restrictions.
The main reason the map editing software is so restricted, is because of this.

Seriously, it's like they just cut down the old programs, added a couple new features, and hoped it worked right...


So, if you want to blame someone, blame the asses of the world, not the HG, or Bungie, or Microsoft.
It's not their fault, they tried to give us what we wanted, but they couldn't just give out the tools to hack the games. Instead they gave us the best PoS they could and hoped we'd be okay with it.

The only thing I dislike about this idea, is that they've only stalled the hacking.

[SuperSunny]

Thank you, Bum!

[Teroh]

Perhaps if you read his posts, you'd understand why. Oh wait, people dont do that anymore.....
Yeah, see, I did read them fully. Thanks for assuming.

[Chewy Gumball]

We wouldn't be hacking the game with a toolset that is less restricted. You don't even need the ek if you wanted to hack the game. This isn't about hacking.

[SuperSunny]

Personally, I feel that this restriction (if temporary) is a good thing. Learn what's available first. I understand some of the mistakes (missing shaders, etc), but if you look past it, try to learn what you can do with the game so far! I've been playing around and I still haven't mastered anything yet.

[Neuro Guro]

I say this be stickied.

[jcap]

Stickied.

[Neuro Guro]

Stickied.
Poone.

,also read my little funn-ay comment i left ya Nick :D

[DaneO'Roo]

you should probably make this the primary forum you visit often, collectively it has the best members honest :p

^ tbh

and to be honest, the only issues with the game I'm concerned about are the editing kit, and the performance of the game :X Little things, I know can be fixed, but big things....

I REALLY don't want to have to buy an 8 series geforce to run the game. Really.

[Bodzilla]

1. No Insults.
Cause and effect.

2. No Demands.
We payed for it, we deserve it. it's not a demand to ask for which you should have already received.

3. Clear and Concise.
agreed.

4. Your Viewpoint.
i want a game that works, with little or no problems. But thats a given right? i mean jesus, it's not like it costs between $80-100 (in australia).

5. No Expectations.
Bullshit. How do u suppose ppl do this. i have waited since Halo was released on the Xbox for Halo 2 to come to the PC. Then considering the success of H2 on the Xbox how could i not expect to receive something of quality. it's crushing to hear so much bad news day after day, week after week about the game, with it's failed editing kit, with fucking nudity, delays, dedicated servers, fees, custom content, shaders, textures........
My expectations and my contempt was and is justified.

6. Reply.
it's all been said before countless times by hundreds of people, yet i havnt head of any changes on microsofts part to better finish the game.

.


also it's a shame i cant rep u Dole, it appears you've been awesome recently.

[Kornman00]

Instead they gave us the best PoS they could and hoped we'd be okay with it.
Hey now, lets not judge the editing kit like its some Playboy mag with a big black bar across that is sitting a few feet over our head at a gas station stand and we're all still underage. Both may be censored but there are ways to remove those "black bars", to show the true beauty on the inside ;p.

Even in its release state, its not a PoS, just we're trying to hold it to standards of something that was just thrown out the door by a totally different developer who also didn't even (want to?) support it.

[leorimolo]

Korn many people are expecting you to remove those bars (including me), but are you going to release that work or is it going into the development of an app that wont be released in an year or two?

[SMASH]

I think that with Jahrain, and others, being able to make .gbxmodel -> .render_model , all we would really need would be Guerrilla to do stuff with it.

[Digikid]

Well Put Nick.

However Some of YOUR posts have not been ...well put either from the past....but I DO understand what you are trying to say.

[Limited]

Yes and no.

I agree with the part dont post if your going to blatantly insult the makers. However that is all I agree with.

We were put in the help file for a reason, a community that others can talk to other people who use the game, to share truthful feelings about the game. Hired Gun comes here to see what we make and to see what we have to say about the game.

I want to get my moneys worth with a game. If it was free then I wouldnt complain one bit, its free you cant complain if its free. £35 isnt alot, but that doesnt mean I expect shitty results (not that halo 2 isnt a shitty result)

I feel there is areas that H2V can be improved upon and I hope that the people who do updates to the game read what the users inputs are. Any good game company should defiantly listen to the opinions of the consumers, of course there's going to be a few crappy opinion's which are made by people who are never pleased and by people who love to act like a noob.

However just people they are a noob, doesnt mean the issue of the opinon isnt true or should be less listened to.

And no this isnt a reply because its you Nick, whoever posts it I would have replied the same.

[Dr Nick]

Maybe they could do what someone else said on the forums and make regular maps only get you achievements.

That way, they could unlock the editor(Pfft, like that'll ever happen!) and we could be free to do as we wish!

[(v)]

weeell, I'll admit you don't have it as bad as I do, and you're probably better with computers than I am so you have less to complain about, but for me, at least, there are some pretty damn big problems with this game. I by no means think this is call for anyone to be rude, but I just don't feel like MS tried very hard.

I suppose I feel this way because basically my copy doesn't work. I can play campaign all right, but the game won't install(more complex than that), and I can't get the game to connect to the internet.

[bum has knife]

but I just don't feel like MS tried very hard.

Always stings a little bit, especially when you know exactly how much effort actually went into making this port BUT I can definitely understand your frustration when looking at things from the outside.

In an effort to stay on topic, would you post the install symptoms you're describing in a new thread. Also, the Games for Windows - LIVE team has made a lot of headway in helping people get issues sorted out getting onto LIVE, so I can point you to some threads if needed.

Thanks.

[Tycho]

Also, the Games for Windows - LIVE team has made a lot of headway in helping people get issues sorted out getting onto LIVE
It is difficult to refrain from mentioning that the majority of the multiplayer issues could have been ultimately avoided if the LIVE service (which, might I add, no one wanted) was not included in the port to start. If it was done the RIGHT way, LESS effort would have gone into making an experience that is being asked for by the players. Because LIVE is being juggled around pointlessly, it's doing absolutely NOTHING but being cancer for the game. Don't believe it? Ehh...you'll see why soon enough.

[StankBacon]

i agree, live was a horrible idea to bring to pc, and putting it in halo 2 has ruined pretty much everyones expectations for the game.

[Nick]

Here is how software releases often go (in my experience):

1.0 - Stable and feature lacking or buggy and moderately populated with features.
2.0 - What 1.0 should have been. Far more stable than 1.0, though there are still plenty of useful features to add.
3.0 - Satisfies the initial vision for the software. Original architect(s) could die happy, if time had stopped after planning 1.0.
4.0+ - Evolutionary changes with the occasional revolutionary feature.

Live on Windows is a good idea, but it needs time to mature. I beta tested Xbox Live for Xbox 1 and it certainly didn't hold a candle to the amazing experience that now exists on Xbox 360. When you port something so extensive that it can truly be considered a platform of its own (in a way) you will never get all of the features or squash all of the bugs in 1.0 - that's life. The quality of Live on Xbox skyrocketed expectations for what Live on Windows would be.

Nick

[jahrain]

In my opinion, they should have just left it with shadow run. G4WL in shadow run was a good idea as it introduces cross platform game play. But it just feels wrongfully 'forced' in place in halo 2 on the pc and makes it pale in comparison to what is offered by other online games. But whats really going to kill g4wl in the long run is third party support on the pc unless they either shape it up to suit 3rd party demands such as making it 100% free to users or do some major bribe work.

[jngrow]

Always stings a little bit, especially when you know exactly how much effort actually went into making this port BUT I can definitely understand your frustration when looking at things from the outside.

In an effort to stay on topic, would you post the install symptoms you're describing in a new thread. Also, the Games for Windows - LIVE team has made a lot of headway in helping people get issues sorted out getting onto LIVE, so I can point you to some threads if needed.

Thanks.

I honestly saw all the effort that went into this. It's very nice when I can get it to run. But something, something really odd, had to have happened when you guys ported this, it just doesn't make sense. Also, are they ANY known fixes that help/people have tried? I can't figure anything out, the game crashes after 2 minutes, (not in game, just menu, I can't go in-game).

And one more question: Why did Bungie abruptly stop posting updates about Vista? I mean, they didn't even announce that it was released! They posted a nice H2V update ever other update, then they just stopped.

[Leiukemia]

While I do agree on the terms that I'm a nice guy that it'd be cool if everyone laid off on them a bit, I don't like your approach Nick. You don't ask, you give orders. This is a public forum, and while I don't think direct insults towards the H2V team members are acceptable, I get a faint sense of oppression for peoples opinions here. If they aren't happy, too bad, it's their freedom not to be happy.

Also, you sound as if the game was something they did for free, as a present for all us gamers. Sorry, no. They work hard, and they get paid for it. If they didn't do it, somebody else would. If you didn't want to have to work so hard and endlessly at the game, then you wouldn't have to. Guess what, there are other jobs out there. Can't take the heat of the public? Get a job where you don't have to deal with people not being happy with your product. Did you honestly expect every last person to be happy with it? If you did, then you need a serious reality check. I expect the obvious arguement: "well, they worked hard, and probably stayed up late stressed out and working." Again, can't take the heat? Don't do it.

Anyways, that's just my two cents. I in no way dislike the H2V team or even have a backed up opinion because I haven't even bought the game. I just wanted to point out some things I was unhappy with in your post Nick. I do think it would be nice for the insults and whining to stop, but I just can't help but to sense oppression when you want to disallow people to convey their opinions. Have a nice day.

[Dr Nick]

Pay attention, he is suggesting people follow them.

Beginning of third paragraph:

" Instead, I am here to make some suggestions."

[Mr Buckshot]

I agree with you, Nic.

I'm sick of all the people who flame Windows Vista itself just because H2V is Vista exclusive (bear in mind that many people have yet to know about the XP hack). Dark Sektor is one of them. Those people don't even own Vista.

However, I feel that my personal criticisms about H2V are not too unjust. I'm fine with the fact that H2V has minimal visual upgrades - many console-to-PC ports are guilty of that. However, minimal visual upgrades should mean lower system requirements. For example, GTA San Andreas for the PC doesn't take much advantage of PC hardware, yet a Radeon 9250 can run it at 800x600 on high with over 30 fps.

My main problem with H2V is that it is too demanding for a game that has no impressive technical features to show. Zeph explained to us why getting crazy FPS numbers is difficulty for a game that was coded to run on the Xbox.

Even then, if I run at 1680x1050 on highest on a Geforce 7600 GT, I get single digit frames - totally unacceptable considering the game doesn't look good at that setting. Hired Gun could've just locked the game engine at 30 fps (the way the old Doom 3 was locked at 60 fps - even if the FRAPS counter showed higher, the game was still at 60). By rights, my computer should get at least 30 fps at 1920x1200 on maximum (although I don't have a 1920x1200 monitor).

Many console-to-PC ports that I've played (GTA, MGS2 Substance) have shown that the developers didn't take advantage of the more powerful PC hardware. That's fine with me - at least I can run the games at the highest of the highest settings with high framerates. Why H2V doesn't fall into this category is beyond my understanding.

As for Games for Windows LIVE, I don't really care about it, although I despise the fact that it has to be tied into the game. What happened to the good old simple days of PC multiplayer gaming? IMO, this attempt to bring XBL to the PC will be ill-fated unless a superb cross-platform-play game comes out.

Bottom line: I can't blame Bungie or Microsoft for the port. I actually respect Bungie - the game in H2V is still damn good after 2.5 years. It's just the way it's been brought to the PC - I blame Hired Gun but I can't make them do anything about it.

[Kornman00]

Why you blaming the people who had to listen to the Jolly Green Giant and Little Boy Blue :(

[kenney001]

Now its my turn to state my honest opinion about the game.

The game itself kicks-ass, when you get it to run. Im running on a "higher end" setup (AMD 3800 x2, Radeon x1950pro, 2gig ram) and I have no problems or low FPS other than certain spots in campagin where its obviously loading something, and when there is ping lag, but most is very minimal, and i am able to run at ful settings. I am also pleased with the controlls, it seems like they fine-tuned them very well to be balanced.

There are 3 MAJOR flaws with this game though, that keep it from being a bit hit.
This game was vista only. I can understand Xp is out-of date, and all the new features of Vista and on and on, so not anything that should have been avoided (except maybe some unsupported patch for XP?). This one is understandable....not much ahrm done (except sales)
This game uses Windows Live...I cannot begin to describe my hatred for this intrusion into the PC world. Live can stay on xbox. I am a die-hard PC fanatic, and this was like being run over by a dump-truck. I refuse to pay for any multiplayer on a PC when I am already paying $50 for the game and $30 p/m for internet access.HOWEVER I would have no problem with this if silver accounts could join/create any internet server. I don't care about matchmaking, quick games, acheivments, or any of that. When I play multiplayer (Im sure alot of you agree) you just play it for the game.
But now that they have limited the silver to basically nothing, It really upsets alot of people and therefore upsets sales. As soon as my 30 days is over, I plan on switching back to BF2 and Halo 1, and not reccomending this game to my friends, not until they allow game full internet server creation/joining in silver.
The editing kit: when I first heard H2v was comming to pc with an editing kit, i freaked. I love the halo series, but I do not own an xbox. I also love to make new levels/weapons/vehicles etc and throw my own personallity into it. I even made a whole level, and some pretty awsome weapons for its release. I finally got my hands on it and I was devistated with the EK. Its not BSP's that made Haloce what it was, it was the freedom to do anything. Now that It is restricted, halo 2 vista just lost ALOT of popularity. I can understand there were probably some REALLY good reasons for this, but I felt I was slapped in the face. I would personally die to see a release of an H2EK and H2CE just like halo 1, with everything unlocked, but have achievments and all disabled.
Until that day, Halo 2 for Windows was a big dissapointment to this whole H2V community.Now i understand many reasons for these issues, but Come-on people some things just cant be this way, not on a PC game in a community thats starving to create new and exciting things in an updated engine.

[Mr Buckshot]

Here's a very insulting flaw:

When Bungie first announced the port, they also talked about how they really wanted to support user-created content out of the box. Guess what, the game released, totally went against what Bungie promised.

I think the Games for Windows LIVE isn't too bad, but it's just too limited and stuff. Microsoft obviously has yet to know about what PC gaming is really like (their profits mostly come from Xbox/Xbox 360 titles). If Silver had everything including cross-platform play, it would be a good idea. Just limit the rudimentary shit like Achievements to Gold and LIVE will be the next big thing.

If a decent game doesn't come out for GFWL, then the service is ill-fated.

Whether Microsoft fixes GFWL or not depends on whether they will listen to the criticisms from professionals (meaning game developers and high-profile magazine reviewers)

[kenney001]

I completly agree with Mr buckshot...about everything.

[Mr Buckshot]

True, I'm not saying that Microsoft should give up on GFWL - just that they need to do some reading on what PC gamers really do, and that they need to narrow the gap between silver and gold users.

Shadowrun has shown us that cross-platform gameplay can be done well, just that Shadowrun sucked (according to reviews that is). If Microsoft implements this feature into silver and also encourages as many developers as possible to use it, GFWL could be the next big thing. Although Microsoft can be rather incompetent at times, I'm sure they will understand criticisms (after all, the X360 can finally stand on its side and read burned music CDs!)

I agree with Kenney001 on everything...just that his view of GFWL is a bit too biased. You're right, in this stage, GFWL is complete and total shit, but Shadowrun has proved that certain things "can be done," and if newer games improve on that, GFWL can be great.

[Dr Nick]

If Microshaft actually did read what people cared about, there'd be a rule against preloaded content!

Seriously, I respect when someone contributes the general public, but I still think it's horrible work if it's horrible work

I think Hired Gun should've left Halo 2 to some other larger group of people. I mean, people from here have already thought of a way to let us play custom maps with different vehicles, bipeds, guns, etc...

"Just make Live accomplishments available only in the original maps!"

[jahrain]

"Just make Live accomplishments available only in the original maps!"

I honestly seriously doubt that is the true reason or motive behind it. To me it seems more of a pathetic scape goat or cover up excuse for any true reasons why certain choices have been made about the editing kit.

[Dr Nick]

Okay then,

Why do you think that they limited the abilities of the EK?

[Chewy Gumball]

Is that the only reason you think thats the reason they limited the EK? Because you couldn't think of something better?

As I see it, anyone with a brain could have come up with that solution to the achievements problem, even microsoft.

[Con]

Okay then,

Why do you think that they limited the abilities of the EK?

They didn't want the Intellectual Property of other game developers getting into H2V; total conversion mods.

[jahrain]

They didn't want the Intellectual Property of other game developers getting into H2V; total conversion mods.Well thats a total kick in the balls to any modding community if thats the reasoning behind it. Either way, with whats provided, one can still put IP of other games (maps, textures, etc) in the game and thats not something they can prevent, nor be liable for leaving that as not a valid reasoning from castrating the ability to even make original content for the game.

[UXB]

Either way, with whats provided, one can still put IP of other games (maps, textures, etc) in the game and thats not something they can prevent, nor be liable for No but since Windows Live is pay for play the "could" be held responsible for distributing it. That is just how lawyers think and since MS is not user content friendly to begin with I can see them adopting ways to show they are trying to prevent it.

[-£§- §age]

I recently got H2V and used the patch for XP.
I was EXTREMELY disappointed. My current LIVE account "Could not be downloaded" according to the game. I could not even play SP maps! To have bought LIVE Gold for XBOX and have my account not work in H2V is very frustrating.

But Nick, the first day I saw you I knew you were trouble. Limit your hypocrisy to HaloDev; keep it out of here.

MS HATES user created content. They despised h2 modding even when it was kept to local play and there was no real cheating.
So that's a big reason why the EK was stripped.

[Nick]

I recently got H2V and used the patch for XP.
I was EXTREMELY disappointed. My current LIVE account "Could not be downloaded" according to the game. I could not even play SP maps! To have bought LIVE Gold for XBOX and have my account not work in H2V is very frustrating.Sorry, but there is honestly no other way to say this:

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

That is all.

Nick

[Veegie]

I recently got H2V and used the patch for XP.
I was EXTREMELY disappointed. My current LIVE account "Could not be downloaded" according to the game. I could not even play SP maps! To have bought LIVE Gold for XBOX and have my account not work in H2V is very frustrating.

But Nick, the first day I saw you I knew you were trouble. Limit your hypocrisy to HaloDev; keep it out of here.

MS HATES user created content. They despised h2 modding even when it was kept to local play and there was no real cheating.
So that's a big reason why the EK was stripped.
~:awesome:>

[Apoc4lypse]

Nicks right on this one, altho I can understand why some people would be fuming over the flaws, they just bought a bunch of upgrades most likely in order to upgrade to a new OS in order to play halo 2 vista, least I know there were quite a few people who did this in anticipation to the h2v launch, and they were greeted with recalls and game glitches.

Altho these ppl obviously have the right to be mad, I agree that whining and flaming or yelling isn't going to fix anything...

[Mr Buckshot]

Nicks right on this one, altho I can understand why some people would be fuming over the flaws, they just bought a bunch of upgrades most likely in order to upgrade to a new OS in order to play halo 2 vista, least I know there were quite a few people who did this in anticipation to the h2v launch, and they were greeted with recalls and game glitches.

Altho these ppl obviously have the right to be mad, I agree that whining and flaming or yelling isn't going to fix anything...

oh god, please don't tell me you were one of those people, because only idiots (yes, people with below average intelligence) will make massive upgrades and buy a new OS just to play one video game when there are thousands of other games to play. I bought Vista for what the new OS itself had to show, not for compatibility with one video game.

I don't think H2V's launch had the same kind of eagerness and stuff that accompanied the Xbox version's launch back in 2004. Xboxes have fallen in price (you can get a used one for under $80) and the PC crowd has more than its fair share of superior shooters (Halo 2 is a great game, but it's not the best). By now, interest in Halo 2 would have diminished.