A Look Behind the Scenes at H2V Programming

[TheGhost]

Probably the first and foremost accomplishment to begin H2V's extensive modding was kornman's unlocked Guerilla, which he was able to conjour in just a few days after release. With this program you can open, edit, or create any type of tag in the Halo 2 library.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/unlocked_guerilla.jpg

His work allowed myself and other highly respected modders to access a number of important tags and their properties so that we could work on tools to unleash the full potential of Halo 2 modding.

This is a behind-the-scenes look at some of the work that has been done to date to achieve that goal.

One of the biggest complaints of Halo 2 Vista's Editing Kit was its lack of tags released with the game. Kornman's Guerilla Radio allows you to open any Single Player or Multiplayer map and extract the tags from it.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/guerilla-radio_extract.jpg

You can also recursively extract the tags to additionally extract all of the tags that the tag you're extracting depends on.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/guerilla-radio_deps.jpg

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/brute_tags.jpg

This program also contains a number of built-in tools such as "Extract Import Info" - the ability to extract the import data from render, collision, and physics model to decompile them to their JMS format.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/extract-import-info.jpg

This allows you access to all of the original source JMS files for any model you want.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/chief_folders.jpg

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/elite_render-jms.jpg

I've created a 3ds max script that allows you to import these JMS files so that you can look at how to create them or modify them for you own use. The JMS importer's current UI looks like this:

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/jms-importer_ui.jpg

It can currently fully import render and physics models, and it will support importing of collision models in the near future. Today I would like to show off the physics importer, because everyone already knows the the render models of the characters look like.

To run the script you open up the JMS file extracted with kornman's tool.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/chief_ragdoll-jms.jpg

It creates the 3ds max scene with the nodes and rigid bodies defined by the tag. It also sets up all of the constraints, such as ragdoll and hinge constraints, which defines how the physics model interacts.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/chief_physics-model.jpg

You can also use 3ds max's built-in Havok plugin to simulate the cyborg's physics and test it out.

http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/havok.jpg

You can view a short video of this here (http://files.modacity.net/images/h2v/secret/havok.wmv).

Currently exporters are in the works so that we can put our own models with custom collision and custom physics into the game.

Thanks for reading! Look forward to the release of some of this stuff.

[TeeKup]

Well done to Kornman, and to you ghost for that script. :)

[mech]

Lol, ragdoll; neat.

[SuperSunny]

:D Is all I can say :P

Good work!

[Con]

I love you guys :D

[Ki11a_FTW]

^^ Will you be my firend?

[Masterz1337]

Awsome. Now all we need is imported sounds and animations.

[leorimolo]

wait Nvm...

AWSOME WORK KORN MAN

[Jelly]

An awesome achievement, congrats guys.

[CabooseJr]

Thank You Kornmann, I need this big time.

[Roostervier]

Great job you guys :awesome:

[teh lag]

You need a medal or trophy of some sort.

[Stealth]

Oh, wow, but what are we going to do when xbox live finds out about this?

[CabooseJr]

Halo 2Vista has nothing to do with Xbox live, its just Live, and who cares, its only for custom map making.

[Roostervier]

When they find out, we will take a shit in their face ;d

Seriously, what did they expect was going to happen? =p

[Choking Victim]

Very nice, though have you guys talked about scripting? From looking at the hex it's almost exactly the same as Halo 2 xbox's compiled format (http://forums.halomods.com/viewtopic.php?search_id=1324675225&t=44102) iirc.

[wannabeapilot]

great work guys :)

[Kornman00]

Currently importing new physics models is already done. Everything else is currently still in the works. Animations may require some tools that are not as straight forward as a import command you give tool.
He is using an out dated h2gr, and don't expect that version to be the one you guys get to use, the release on will be ALOT different and not just based on tag extracting ;p

edit: as far as scripting is concerned, don't worry about it ;).

[SMASH]

That's some crazy crap right there. I can't wait to see what you guys are capable of in the future.

[p0lar_bear]

Think you guys could make a tag extracting plugin for the HEK+?

It has some potential for great plugins and to be a center for modding/content creation, but nobody wants to make stuff for it. People only see it for the CE tag extractor.

[leorimolo]

does that convert to xbox button work

[TheGhost]

Only for those who don't touch themselves at night.

[Kornman00]

Think you guys could make a tag extracting plugin for the HEK+?
No, extraction is done in a entirely different manner than how HEK+ does. I use my own code library which then H2GR depends on. I'm not here to promote someone else's tool.
The tool you guys will be using WON'T be JUST for tag extracting (its not even going to be H2GR), its only one of its perks.

[bitterbanana]

Awesome progress. I'm rooting for you guys. Are you working with the Prometheus team? It seems you're working towards similar goals.

[Kornman00]

Prometheus who?

-Nick

[et_cg]

Haha. Nice one, Korn.

Great job you two. I believe you are an inspiration to our community.

And from what you have stated, Ghost, about this toolset for highly respected map creators... Does that mean you guys are gearing to make this program not as simple as what most billboards and brochures are in our society today? (6th grade english/math skills) Because I would really enjoy to see a program use words that are geared towards a more intelligent crowd.

If not... then I will be glad to just see you guys get whatever program that will release, released. Once again, you two are doing an extraordinary job.

[FireScythe]

Fantastic work! Its good to see such progress after such a short amount of time.

[StankBacon]

very nice :)

[jngrow]

Uh... godly? Haha, make your own game using Halo 2' engine. That would be coo.

[thehoodedsmack]

Aww, man. I want those apps so badly it hurts. Keep up the great work, guys!

[dg]

I love to see talented people work together like this.

[Stealth]

this may sound kind of stupid, but it's just alittle bit of thought I want to figer out. Can we have more then 1 biped models per biped? like in CMT's first MP map release with WOL's spartan model, the Hi res skined Halo 1 sparten, and the crapy Halo wars spartan model? can we do something like that?

[TeeKup]

The answer to that is a definate:
Maybe

[Stealth]

ok, if we could do some like that, Con could make Halo 3 spartans and elites for his map, that'd be cool.

[Ki11a_FTW]

or spartans with new armor instead of elites :D

[[EJ] Bean]

Amazing. Simply amazing. It's great to know that we can finally do what was possible with the original HEK and more. Especially useful for the non-ordinary noobs like myself.

[jahrain]

I'm not here to promote someone else's tool.


Prometheus who?

-Nick
This calls for a sexy party!
http://faqsmedia.ign.com/faqs/image/article/739/739691/sexy_party_stewie.jpg

[Roostervier]

Bean;105316']Amazing. Simply amazing. It's great to know that we can finally do what was possible with the original HEK and more. Especially useful for the non-ordinary noobs like myself.
We still need to get around having to use shared.map to load weapons, bipeds, animations, etc. D:

[et_cg]

We still need to get around having to use shared.map to load weapons, bipeds, animations, etc. D:

Well, it'd be as simple as extracing everything from the shared.map and compiling your own. :P

Then, you just distribute your own after you've figured out how to work around the default one.

At least I've come to believe so.

[spookers622]

i cant wait!! when do you think it'll be done? And isnty this illegal? cant they ban you or something or do they even care? anyway, good work!!

[Bodzilla]

I love to see talented people work together like this.
Couldnt have said it better myself.


Good job guys, your bettering the community.

[Roostervier]

Well, it'd be as simple as extracing everything from the shared.map and compiling your own. :P

Then, you just distribute your own after you've figured out how to work around the default one.

At least I've come to believe so.
See, that makes sense until you think about Live. If you change the biped, how is that going to react with the ability to select your own? What about weapons? I am perfectly fine with the fact that my map probably won't allow for achievements if I do implement custom content, I just have to wonder how it will all play out.

Also, sorry for thread jacking D:

Good job, again =D.

[jahrain]

There is no need to modify anything in the shared.map in order to use custom weapons, or bipeds.

[Cortexian]

i cant wait!! 1) when do you think it'll be done? And 2) isnty this illegal? cant they ban you or something or do they even care? anyway, good work!!

1) It will never be "done", done is a term used when talking about cooking. However, when it's finished it will be released. Am I Right?

2) As long as the custom maps don't give anyone an advantage over anyone else, I really don't think they will give a shit. Unless it's about copyright infringement or some shit like that.

[fatso784]

You guys are the best halo modders period.

[TeeKup]

You guys are the best halo modders period.

Thats an understatement compared to what I've seen these people accomplish.

[Warningshot3]

Thank you so much guys. Now i dont have to use unreal engine.

[Anthony]

hmm... I don't know what to say.. The GUI sucks for one and so does the name and whos this kornman guy?

[Bad Waffle]

Wow. Are you a halmods user or what? Anthony, get the hell off of these great boards.

[et_cg]

See, that makes sense until you think about Live.

Why use Live? It sucks.


There is no need to modify anything in the shared.map in order to use custom weapons, or bipeds.

Good point. The map files still compile everything that they need. Except for the for surely shared tags.

[FRain]

Wow. Are you a halmods user or what? Anthony, get the hell off of these great boards.


Seconded. Get the fuck off.

[p0lar_bear]

hmm... I don't know what to say.. The GUI sucks for oneand so does the nameThe magic words are "Work in Progress".


and whos this kornman guy?and whos this anthony guy?

I hope to god this is an alt.

[Bad Waffle]

Hahaha, false alarm guyz! CAD tells me this guy is korns friend.

CALL OFF TEH AIRSTRIKEZ.

Sorry bout that.

[Stealth]

I think the GUI for the whole program needs alittle bit of a a tune up, like maybe a way to change the color of it to match with the vista theme. just an idea. but I'm going to have some fun with this, if only I could mod some of the SP maps.

[et_cg]

I think the GUI for the whole program needs alittle bit of a a tune up, like maybe a way to change the color of it to match with the vista theme. just an idea. but I'm going to have some fun with this, if only I could mod some of the SP maps.

Uhm, stealth, that program you see there is not going to be the one they hand out to us. They've mentioned that a couple times, just to clear it up a bit for you. So I'm sure the final program will be nothing short of awesomesauce.

[Kornman00]

Yeah, the GUI is dark like that because I hate staring at bright colors all day long when I'm testing something over and over again in the dark. The people who have seen the color set I use for my code editors have thought it is but ugly, but it works wonders on the eyes, and after a few days you learn to love it ;p.

ohai ant

[Stealth]

Yeah, the GUI is dark like that because I hate staring at bright colors all day long when I'm testing something over and over again in the dark. The people who have seen the color set I use for my code editors have thought it is but ugly, but it works wonders on the eyes, and after a few days you learn to love it ;p.

ohai ant
I hear that, darker colors are better on one's eye's when looking at screens for long periods of time.

[Masterz1337]

What do you guys have planned as far as the checksums in some of the tags? No globals editing make me sad.

[someone]

Nice! That's one big step for h2v moders:D

[spookers622]

didnt microsoft make it like illegal to modify the h2vista tools or something?

[et_cg]

Nice! That's one big step for h2v moders:D

This tool is not meant for modders, it's meant for people who want to create content for the game. Modding is just utterly... dumb. :/

[Rob Oplawar]

...
I am not worthy.

Thank you guys so much. I knew you guys would come through. Now I know without a doubt that I'll be able to do Bridge CE for H2V- wait, I still need a Sapien that can edit SP and place AI and compile scripts and such. I'm not gonna nag you guys to do this for me, but do you think it's possible?

[Flyboy]

Um, wow. Just wow.

[Rosco]

didnt microsoft make it like illegal to modify the h2vista tools or something?

Then nothing good for H2V would be made.

Original custom weapons, ect.

[Tweek]

it's just microsoft. who cares.

[Cortexian]

it's just microsoft. who cares.
Hmm lets see. Say if it were illegal, and you were the one opening up the tools. Then Microsoft got wind of you and told you to shut down.

What would you do?

[jahrain]

Hmm lets see. Say if it were illegal, and you were the one opening up the tools. Then Microsoft got wind of you and told you to shut down.

What would you do?
We rebel! Screw them.

[MithosK]

Hmm lets see. Say if it were illegal, and you were the one opening up the tools. Then Microsoft got wind of you and told you to shut down.

What would you do?
Not our fault their trying to turn the PC into an Xbox and enforcing inane rules upon us

[et_cg]

We rebel! Screw them.

I'm with that dude that makes other nifty apps too.

[Fragarach 87]

Hmm lets see. Say if it were illegal, and you were the one opening up the tools. Then Microsoft got wind of you and told you to shut down.

What would you do?
Run and hide in a hole and hide from microsoft's assassins? :lol:

Anyways looking cool guys can't wait for these apps.

[Flyboy]

I would love to see how bad H2v live would fail at keeping us from doing mods like this.

[Warningshot3]

We can still use VPN software if M$ ban people that use unlocked versions of H2Guerilla. I dont see any harm if some of us who keep the game fair and keep within the halo style but use unlocked software so we can make new crates, scenery, whatever to make the lv better and possibly make the lv run faster on older computers. It sucks we have to put objects into the BSP, instance is good but I want to make new crates that move.

[et_cg]

We can still use VPN software if M$ ban people that use unlocked versions of H2Guerilla. I dont see any harm if some of us who keep the game fair and keep within the halo style but use unlocked software so we can make new crates, scenery, whatever to make the lv better and possibly make the lv run faster on older computers. It sucks we have to put objects into the BSP, instance is good but I want to make new crates that move.

It's stated in hundreds of places all over your computer that it's harmful. You could go to prison if you don't pay reparations.

Basically, what's happening, and what will be happening is illegal. We're taking their intellectual property that was offered to us AS IS, with the acceptance that we do not modify this AS IS software.

If we do, they may come to us with a hand out for cash/telling us to shut down.

[Kornman00]

when they come for me, that hand better already have that cash in it, and their mouth like http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-aaaaa.gif.

[Apoc4lypse]

all I can say is I hope bungie and ms are smart enough to leave this stuff alone... this is the kind of stuff I was expecting to be included with halo 2 vista.. not the kit they gave us tbh.

Anyway... :eek: you guys own.

:cool:

maybe there is hope for me in upgrading my pc to vista and buying h2v after all.

[[EJ] Bean]

Though this is halo 2 vista, how is this different from the halo ce modifications to guerrilla and other HEK programs?

[thehoodedsmack]

Bean;105984']Though this is halo 2 vista, how is this different from the halo ce modifications to guerrilla and other HEK programs?

Because in the days of CE, they weren't deliberately trying to halt progress.

[[EJ] Bean]

But there were locked parts. Those weren't deleberately locked?

[Con]

Not to the extent that they are now.

[Roostervier]

Also, I understand weapons, but how, again, are we going to get bipeds to work since we cannot edit the globals tag?

And for all who do not know, the globals tag you are provided with has a certain checksum. If you modify it in ANYWAY the checksum changes and your maps will no longer work (I'm not sure exactly what happens... ask masterz =p).

[p0lar_bear]

Bean;105988']But there were locked parts. Those weren't deleberately locked?The locked out parts were locked simply because they were extraneous or useless. You can't use a .unit tag as far as I'm concerned.

The CE editing kit came with the ability to create a completely custom map. You could have easily tossed everything aside (save for the ui folder, widget definitions were locked :-3), and built a whole new concept from the ground up.

The Halo 2 Vista Map Editor only has the ability to create a custom Halo 2 map. No more, and much less.

[et_cg]

Sex?

[Kornman00]

Bean;105988']But there were locked parts. Those weren't deleberately locked?
Everything except tag_collection, and the ui_widiget_* tag groups where as-is the same bungie used. The fields were locked because alot of them weren't suppose to be edited because it went against how HALO was suppose to run, or they were fields only suppose to be maintained by a programmer. Those 3 tags mentioned where purposely locked out from public use.

[Kornman00]

I just removed the distance and falling damage effects from my globals tag and the map built just fine. Game could see it as well. And yes, I did play the map ;p

[DaneO'Roo]

fucking awesome :D

[dcemuser]

I just removed the distance and falling damage effects from my globals tag and the map built just fine. Game could see it as well. And yes, I did play the map ;p
<3 Korn

[Roostervier]

I just removed the distance and falling damage effects from my globals tag and the map built just fine. Game could see it as well. And yes, I did play the map ;p

Masterz? You got some 'splainin to do...

[et_cg]

Masterz? You got some 'splainin to do...

More learnin' perhaps?

[Masterz1337]

Masterz? You got some 'splainin to do...
It might be my biped tag that caused the map not to be detected. Also, don't forget I don't use Kornmans Guerilla, so it might be a problem with the editor rather than me. I told kornman I woul investigate once I get my new pc. If I load h2 at high res on this machine, the whole thing goes nuts on me.

[Kornman00]

I just finished adding a utility that creates a tag database from a given tag (will walk its dependency graph). Well, it creates two rather. The first database lists the source tag and all of its references (and then the reference's references, then then theirs, etc etc), the second database lists each tag that had erroneous dependencies (either missing from the tag set, skipped by the database construction, or for some reason failed to load), along with what those dependencies were.
When you extract a tag, it will also create a database with all of the extracted tags.

Besides auto-generating tag archives of a specific tag, I had another idea for usage of these tag databases (which I can really beef up with extra info, but currently I'm only going off the same database format bungie uses). Just not sure if I really want to spend the time implementing the idea as its a type of coding I have never even touched on before :/...

It wouldn't be trivial to get this working for Halo 1 stuff either, since my code library includes everything I need to interface with them too, and the systems are designed to work without hardly any game dependent data. I know people would kill for some of the utilities I've got setup for Halo 2, to work with Halo 1. We'll see how things turn out

[Roostervier]

It might be my biped tag that caused the map not to be detected. Also, don't forget I don't use Kornmans Guerilla, so it might be a problem with the editor rather than me. I told kornman I woul investigate once I get my new pc. If I load h2 at high res on this machine, the whole thing goes nuts on me.
Thanks for explaining. =p

Also, :awesome:

[DaaxGhost]

Wow, This is really gonna help

:awesome:

[Nick]

I just removed the distance and falling damage effects from my globals tag and the map built just fine. Game could see it as well. And yes, I did play the map ;pIt's so funny that people are amazed that worked, isn't it kornman?

On a slightly related note, I still find it funny that people condemn Microsoft for locking down the HEK. They told you that you would be able to create new maps with the HEK and you can create new maps with the HEK; you were never promised the full functionality of the first (rushed) HEK. They did it because they wanted maps to remain in the Halo universe, because with Halo 1 most people spent their time making non-Halo maps. I think they made the right choice, from their point of view, in locking down the HEK.

Nick

[Kornman00]

OMFG GAWD NICK, YOU R STUPID. Your post is stupid. These forums are stupid. Halo is stupid. Gawd <:maddowns:>

-Nick

[Nick]

OH NO NOW I AM CRY :( :(: (

[[EJ] Bean]

It's so funny that people are amazed that worked, isn't it kornman?

On a slightly related note, I still find it funny that people condemn Microsoft for locking down the HEK. They told you that you would be able to create new maps with the HEK and you can create new maps with the HEK; you were never promised the full functionality of the first (rushed) HEK. They did it because they wanted maps to remain in the Halo universe, because with Halo 1 most people spent their time making non-Halo maps. I think they made the right choice, from their point of view, in locking down the HEK.

Nick

Personaly I know that alot of my maps are not going to be in the halo universe. I'm still considering the gameplay tactics and abilites of halo's 2 rednering engine, so if that's their reason for locking it down it wasn't worth it.

[Nick]

To them, it was worth it. They are not giving out a free engine to be used for whatever game ideas you may want to explore - they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime. What they do want is you to make new content for their game that will make sense in the scope of their game, especially now that all kinds of people will be getting your map automatically if it is on a public server.

I'm not arguing that it's good or that it is right. What I am saying is that they did make the right business choice and that's what games are - a business. Additionally, no one was "lied to" about the abilities of the HEK; they said you could make new maps and you can make new maps. I'm just laying out some facts, that's all; there are no opinions to disagree with.

Nick

[et_cg]

OH NO NOW I AM CRY :( :(: (

Wow, a post without his sign off. That's a first for me.

Nick

[Nick]

Wow, a post without his sign off. That's a first for me.

NickYep. It's standard practice actually; I never sign off on posts of intentional absurdity. You should check the interwebs for confirmation.

Nick

P.S. Don't sign your posts as if you're me. I'll have you banned for imitation!

[et_cg]

Absurditys really don't need an identity, do they?

You can ban me... from life, I guess. It's the last thing I have left.

Lee

[[EJ] Bean]

To them, it was worth it. They are not giving out a free engine to be used for whatever game ideas you may want to explore - they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime. What they do want is you to make new content for their game that will make sense in the scope of their game, especially now that all kinds of people will be getting your map automatically if it is on a public server.

I'm not arguing that it's good or that it is right. What I am saying is that they did make the right business choice and that's what games are - a business. Additionally, no one was "lied to" about the abilities of the HEK; they said you could make new maps and you can make new maps. I'm just laying out some facts, that's all; there are no opinions to disagree with.

Nick

Can I atleast blame "them" for making it a business decision? :( I gotta have a good scape goat.

[Nick]

Bean;106297']Can I atleast blame "them" for making it a business decision? :( I gotta have a good scape goat.When in doubt, blame NiTrOuSoXiDe (http://www.h2vista.net/forums/member.php?u=140) :D
that fucking douche bag only knows how to give head D:<
also,
Nick

[p0lar_bear]

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles/a/6/1/2/2/7/a_med_eg_rev_phoenix_004.jpg

To argue the "right business choice", what about the potential revenue they'd draw in if they made the editor [almost] completely open? Someone hears about this awesome mod, they ask what engine it's on, and they say "Halo 2 Vista." The person then buys the game, and then plays this mod. While they didn't buy the game to play Halo 2, it's money in their pocket.

Of course, there's always the argument of possible IP infringement, but then again, it'd still be real easy to infringe many-an-IP with the tools provided. Nothing besides lack of skill is stopping me from instancing some Half-Life 2 characters as statues into the main level geometry, or changing a texture on a crate to look like a Super Mario Bros. item block.

I'm simply stating that I don't see what makes this the "right" business choice. I'm not challenging Microsoft's decision to limit modification on the Blam 2 engine (anymore, at least).

[Nick]

I don't feel like arguing, so I'll save you the trouble.

I win by default.

Thank you for playing, have a nice day.

Nick

[[EJ] Bean]

too bad it's not like BF2 where they embrace mods. They just have Punker Buster that keeps people using modded games joining non-modded servers. Or so I think...I don't have the least idea how it works.

[jahrain]

To them, it was worth it. They are not giving out a free engine to be used for whatever game ideas you may want to explore - they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime.

And this is what fucking makes me sick about microsoft. Worth it? How much are they going to shove down their piss covered bullshit "business decisions" down our throats? Yes they produce games and sell them for money, no problem; no one is asking for a free game. Anywhere else they just need step the fuck out and let the actual game developers have a say in what the game and it's features are. This is where they cross the line when they enforce restrictions to work against the will of developers and the players, and most of all to the PC modding community for their own personal priorities. Modding is what makes PC games unique and separates them from the console counter parts. Epic understands this, ID software understands this, Valve understands this, so why won't MS get with the damn drift? Mods are NOT business competition as microsoft may arrogantly think, they push along innovation in games and extend game life and value. Their is no need to go the extra mile to restrict them from being created unless their priority is to ensure innovation moves at their own pace and that the game's life span is as short as possible so users would go out to buy more games more frequently. Is that whats it worth?

This statement right here "- they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime" is just a complete slap in the face into anyone who truly shares passion for any modding community as that is the pure essence of what modding is all about. And how the hell is it "on their dime" if we are the ones who spend our time, blood, sweat and tears in putting our own new ideas into a dieing game to give it more life and higher value? Especially when they had to pay to have the editing kit locked, have crucial features removed, and extensive extra testing done to the editing kit to make sure it can function after its been broken.

[/rant]

[madworkz]

And this is what fucking makes me sick about microsoft. Worth it? How much are they going to shove down their piss covered bullshit "business decisions" down our throats? Yes they produce games and sell them for money, no problem; no one is asking for a free game. Anywhere else they just need step the fuck out and let the actual game developers have a say in what the game and it's features are. This is where they cross the line when they enforce restrictions to work against the will of developers and the players, and most of all to the PC modding community for their own personal priorities. Modding is what makes PC games unique and separates them from the console counter parts. Epic understands this, ID software understands this, Valve understands this, so why won't MS get with the damn drift? Mods are NOT business competition as microsoft may arrogantly think, they push along innovation in games and extend game life and value. Their is no need to go the extra mile to restrict them from being created unless their priority is to ensure innovation moves at their own pace and that the game's life span is as short as possible so users would go out to buy more games more frequently. Is that whats it worth?

This statement right here "- they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime" is just a complete slap in the face into anyone who truly shares passion for any modding community as that is the pure essence of what modding is all about. And how the hell is it "on their dime" if we are the ones who spend our time, blood, sweat and tears in putting our own new ideas into a dieing game to give it more life and higher value? Especially when they had to pay to have the editing kit locked, have crucial features removed, and extensive extra testing done to the editing kit to make sure it can function after its been broken.

[/rant]

ALL AGREED with!!!, That is why i have steped away for awhile. Very discouraged at the moment. As of right now i have HOURS of hard work that seem to be wasted. Theres so many cool things Ive been holding out on to release to this community, but cant :(. Believe me Jahrain, if i had any skill in programing id be helping you and korman every single minute.

[Kornman00]

:words: separates them from the console counter parts. :words: so why won't MS get with the damn drift? :words:
[/rant]
At its heart, Halo is a console game. And before you start to go on about how it was originally for the Mac, money things change (for the mentally challenged, MS buying Bungie). Halo was going to be a RTS, but things changed.

At least they ported* the damn game to PC, n1663r can't you be grateful for what you get? The engine is Bungie's IP. They can decide who does what and how with it. Its just like any other fucking company's IP for any other industry.

For those of you with the "omg Microsoft just wants money!" mentality. MS provides millions of people with jobs. If the Indians are smart enough to take an American's job in his\her home land, don't you think they will realize they can tilt the proverbial pinball machine of employers to get paid more for their "superior" brains? Shouldn't we be blaming Indians outsourcing, and oil right now and quoting southpark episodes instead of staring at the first light we see?

Nick Kicn

* -ported is highlighted for a reason. Halo 2 xbox didn't include a editing kit, why all of a sudden is it implied that a PORTED game should get it? Gearbox didn't PORT this game remember...

[Stealth]

Kornman, you totaly rock you and UBX know why MS isn't trying to get money.

[Nick]

hurrr[/rant]Microsoft is the publisher and that means Microsoft pays the bills. That means Microsoft gets to make the calls. Stop crying like a little bitch, really; you were promised a map editing toolset and you got a map editing toolset. Just because you can't have your way and make another crappy Zelda mod with stolen models (yeah, that's some blood and passion alright) doesn't mean that the editing kit is "bad" for the community - it gives us more Halo universe maps and for those that actually like Halo ... that is what we want.

Oh, you don't like Halo? Then don't buy the god damn game called Halo to prototype your rubbish ideas in. Go buy Half-Life 2 since Valve is your god; go use the Source engine to serve as a backend for your stolen concepts and content.

Why would Microsoft not want to "open up" Halo's engine for any type of content? Simply because it was not designed to be that type of engine. Engine production is expensive and the Halo engine has always been a targeted one; compared to the flexibility of the Source or Unreal engines, it is completely ill-suited to play host to different genres or even slightly modified gameplay (since all of the gameplay logic is hardcoded and is not extensible). Bungie, before they were purchased by Microsoft, made a business decision to create that type of engine as they were not going to be reselling it (like Valve, id, and Epic do); after being purchased, that decision was upheld.

Now really, how about you just go to a community that "understands" you as a "modder" and leave this community the hell alone? You constantly say how much Microsoft sucks, how much the tools suck, how much Bungie is a sellout, how much this and how much that - so why surround yourself with it? Leave.

Nick

P.S. Kornman, just to be clear: Bungie changed Halo to a FPS from a RTS before they were purchased by Microsoft.

[Kornman00]

I was using that as a change example god Nick ;)

[UXB]

How much are they going to shove down their piss covered bullshit "business decisions" down our throats? Like any company, as much as you are willing to pay to swallow. But I am being flip. The decisions they made from their perspective are the ones they feel make sense to their business, and are not the same decisions made by Epic or Valve or Crytek. Besides, based on your vitriolic attacks of them it appears as if there is nothing they could ever do to appease you.

What they do want is you to make new content for their game that will make sense in the scope of their game, especially now that all kinds of people will be getting your map automatically if it is on a public server.This pretty much sums up their implied intent and is consistent with their history in video games as well as software in general. They said they would deliver a map editor and they did. They did not say they would be offering an SDK like Unreal, Source, Crysis or even Halo CE. Personally I would prefer more people put actual effort into the level designs than in adding new weapons, vehicles or bipeds. But that's just me.

I don't see what makes this the "right" business choice. I'm not challenging Microsoft's decision to limit modification on the Blam 2 engine (anymore, at least).No one here can say that it is the "right choice" because none of us were in on the decision making. Since MS is not actively marketing the Blam! engine for licensing as the aforementioned companies are doing then decisions made for the editing kits will be different, meaning, in my opinion, not as open.

UBX know why MS isn't trying to get money.
HUH?

[Llama Juice]

Personally I would prefer more people put actual effort into the level designs than in adding new weapons, vehicles or bipeds. But that's just me.

<3 +rep

I don't know about you, but to me, half the fun of modding a locked game like this is to watch the toolsets develop over time.

[Chewy Gumball]

I would like to be able to make scenery, but that might just be me... As much time as I spend in map layout, I feel most of it is wasted if I cannot make it look right, and scenery is a big part of that.

[TheGhost]

So I just figured out how to do OOP in Maxscript...

[Kornman00]

Ghost, are you trying to turn this thread into one of those never ending stories ~:mad:>?

[spookers622]

why dont we get bum's opinion on this? lol

[Llama Juice]

I would like to be able to make scenery, but that might just be me... As much time as I spend in map layout, I feel most of it is wasted if I cannot make it look right, and scenery is a big part of that.

Instanced geometry > scenery

[[EJ] Bean]

Instanced geometry > scenery

I thought making the bsp have built in scenery as apposed to a scenery tag was supposed to cause uncessesary poly count and lag. Is it differne't with halo 2?

[Kiwibird]

Thanks you guys. I'm really excited to see what else you create. You've given back hope to this game.

[Roostervier]

Bean;107061']I thought making the bsp have built in scenery as apposed to a scenery tag was supposed to cause uncessesary poly count and lag. Is it differne't with halo 2?
In halo 2, its supposed to cause less lag.

[teh lag]

Instanced geometry > scenery

Not always. Scenery can be damaged. The Covenant stationary shield generator is a perfect example.



In halo 2, its supposed to cause less lag.

That's true. H2 allows instancing, which means the same geometry is used over and over with different lighting, while being loaded only once.

[[EJ] Bean]

Is instancing a speperate process, or just a word i'm unfamiliar with. Like I I made a chair in 3ds max, and destributed it across my level and then exported it would be considered instanced geometry, right?

[Stealth]

why dont we get bum's opinion on this? lol
yea, that'd be an idea, but I'm wondering what well happen.

[jahrain]

Microsoft is the publisher and that means Microsoft pays the bills. That means Microsoft gets to make the calls. Stop crying like a little bitch, really; you were promised a map editing toolset and you got a map editing toolset. Just because you can't have your way and make another crappy Zelda mod with stolen models (yeah, that's some blood and passion alright) doesn't mean that the editing kit is "bad" for the community - it gives us more Halo universe maps and for those that actually like Halo ... that is what we want.Stop crying like a little bitch every time I have a rant against microsoft. And the only thing that makes me cry is having to read your horrid defacement of simple logic.

They did promise a "map editor", but no where does that imply by all means of logic that it will be restricted to only BSP editing since the models, skybox, scenery, and even the vehicles and weapons are part of the "map" in the game. They promised they will provide tool, sapien, and guerilla for editing, like in HEK and no where saying 95&#37; of it will be locked or removed. Most people's minimum expectations was to be at least able to do as they did in Halo CE prior to H2v's release, as it is a newer version of the game with a newer version of the engine. Who the hell expects that newer versions of software to have significantly less or more restricted features? Anyways, Im the first one who originally assumed the editing kit would be locked as it is now when the first few announcements of h2v having a map editor was made. My rant is not against them for not having it my way, it is against the reasoning behind why they did what they did.


Oh, you don't like Halo? Then don't buy the god damn game called Halo to prototype your rubbish ideas in. Go buy Half-Life 2 since Valve is your god; go use the Source engine to serve as a backend for your stolen concepts and content.No nicky boy, no where did I say I don't like halo. I love the game halo, and I respect bungie for their work as game developers. My ideas of how to innovate or improve the game to my own tastes by putting in other ideas and aspects into the game for my own enjoyment is my way of admiring the game for what it is. It doesn't bother me how much you may think my biped models, or vehicles added to the game is nothing but rubbish, I put them in to the game to add to it and give it more flavor to my own liking. Think of it as adding your own spices to one of your favorite foods. It doesn't mean you hate it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't eat it because it doesn't have that particular spice you want in it. Obviously you fail to understand what the meaning behind modding is and thats a shame coming from you of all people.


Why would Microsoft not want to "open up" Halo's engine for any type of content? Simply because it was not designed to be that type of engine. Engine production is expensive and the Halo engine has always been a targeted one; compared to the flexibility of the Source or Unreal engines, it is completely ill-suited to play host to different genres or even slightly modified gameplay (since all of the gameplay logic is hardcoded and is not extensible). Bungie, before they were purchased by Microsoft, made a business decision to create that type of engine as they were not going to be reselling it (like Valve, id, and Epic do); after being purchased, that decision was upheld.
Thats bull. The engine is perfectly capable of allowing new models, animations, etc added to the game. None of that is hard coded into the game. Unreal and Source are somewhat open sourced which is why someone can completely create a completely different genre from the engine as what has been hard coded can be modified. That is no where comparable. Even with a full unlocked editing kit, no one could turn halo 2 into a RTS or MMORPG now could they? You failed to reason why they would intentionally restrict the editing from even allowing a damn custom tree scenery model or even a freaking new skybox to be put in game when it is 100% technically possible. Try again.




Now really, how about you just go to a community that "understands" you as a "modder" and leave this community the hell alone? You constantly say how much Microsoft sucks, how much the tools suck, how much Bungie is a sellout, how much this and how much that - so why surround yourself with it? Leave.I am part of many communities, even emulation. I'm here because, like kornman, I am working to develop tools for halo 2 editing as well as to find ways to create custom content for the game and to unfail what microsoft has done to the game for the community. Don't like it when customers complain? Leave the damn software industry, and leave this forum because its filled up to your eyeballs in disgruntled unsatisfied customers. Unlike microsoft, at least i'm trying to do something about what people are complaining about in h2v instead of just telling them to be grateful they got anything at all for their money.

[DaaxGhost]

Stop crying like a little bitch every time I have a rant against microsoft. And the only thing that makes me cry is having to read your horrid defacement of simple logic.

They did promise a "map editor", but no where does that imply by all means of logic that it will be restricted to only BSP editing since the models, skybox, scenery, and even the vehicles and weapons are part of the "map" in the game. They promised they will provide tool, sapien, and guerilla for editing, like in HEK and no where saying 95% of it will be locked or removed. Most people's minimum expectations was to be at least able to do as they did in Halo CE prior to H2v's release, as it is a newer version of the game with a newer version of the engine. Who the hell expects that newer versions of software to have significantly less or more restricted features? Anyways, Im the first one who originally assumed the editing kit would be locked as it is now when the first few announcements of h2v having a map editor was made. My rant is not against them for not having it my way, it is against the reasoning behind why they did what they did.

No nicky boy, no where did I say I don't like halo. I love the game halo, and I respect bungie for their work as game developers. My ideas of how to innovate or improve the game to my own tastes by putting in other ideas and aspects into the game for my own enjoyment is my way of admiring the game for what it is. It doesn't bother me how much you may think my biped models, or vehicles added to the game is nothing but rubbish, I put them in to the game to add to it and give it more flavor to my own liking. Think of it as adding your own spices to one of your favorite foods. It doesn't mean you hate it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't eat it because it doesn't have that particular spice you want in it. Obviously you fail to understand what the meaning behind modding is and thats a shame coming from you of all people.


Thats bull. The engine is perfectly capable of allowing new models, animations, etc added to the game. None of that is hard coded into the game. Unreal and Source are somewhat open sourced which is why someone can completely create a completely different genre from the engine as what has been hard coded can be modified. That is no where comparable. Even with a full unlocked editing kit, no one could turn halo 2 into a RTS or MMORPG now could they? You failed to reason why they would intentionally restrict the editing from even allowing a damn custom tree scenery model or even a freaking skybox to be put in game when it is 100% technically possible. Try again.



I am part of many communities, even emulation. I'm here because, like kornman, I am working to develop tools for halo 2 editing as well as to find ways to create custom content for the game and to unfail what microsoft has done to the game for the community. Don't like it when customers complain? Leave the damn software industry, and leave this forum because its filled up to your eyeballs in disgruntled unsatisfied customers. Unlike microsoft, at least i'm trying to do something about what people are complaining about in h2v instead of just telling them to be grateful they got anything at all for their money.
:shocked:

[Con]

Jahrain's recent rants (that I've read) have all made a lot of sense to me. I think where Nick says, "take it or leave it, complainer," we're saying that okay isn't good enough. I really believe that gaming studios have a responsibility to their gamers if they want to be successful. Of course, they don't have to do jack shit if they don't want to, but sooner or later it's going to catch up to them. Very poor decisions were made on Microsoft's part, and if they want to repair their image, they need to repair the damage they've done first instead of shoving more BS done our throats.

[dg]

People should calm down and think about how each other's rants/rebuttals relate to taking a look behind the scenes at H2V programming. I'm sure another thread would be suitable for that debate.

[boltdwright]

Do you guys get the problem where the body doesn't ragdoll if there is like more than 8 people? Because if you do, I would like the first thing to made for this is to make all the maps to the rag-doll thing with 16 people, that would be an awesome mod. Great Job Guys! Glad to see this finally hit H2V.

[FRain]

Masterz? You got some 'splainin to do...

*calls masterz*

TURN ON H2V NOW AND GIVE ME UR BETAAZ BEFORE I F33T HAXOR U OLOLK.:XD:

[Llama Juice]

Not always. Scenery can be damaged. The Covenant stationary shield generator is a perfect example.


True, but for most things (rocks trees lights and the like...) instancing makes things so much easier to accurately place rather than having to use sapien's horrid widget thinger

[Kornman00]

I really believe that gaming studios have a responsibility to their gamers if they want to be successful.
And what if said studios don't want it to be successful :raise:?

[Kornman00]

Do you guys get the problem where the body doesn't ragdoll if there is like more than 8 people? Because if you do, I would like the first thing to made for this is to make all the maps to the rag-doll thing with 16 people, that would be an awesome mod. Great Job Guys! Glad to see this finally hit H2V.
I'm pretty sure thats a engine limitation that HG didn't know about or didn't see as a problem that needed to be addressed (as it could have delayed things). Bungie had to handle Havok so that it never stole too much memory (you do want to see SOME bitmaps don't you?).

[et_cg]

I'm sure they added the ESRB warning before the game starts for no reason I suppose?

[UXB]

Jahrain's recent rants (that I've read) have all made a lot of sense to me. I think where Nick says, "take it or leave it, complainer," we're saying that okay isn't good enough. Rants may make the "ranter" feel better but they do nothing except alienate people, cloud the real issues with meaningless drivel and obscure logical thinking.

In the end, after all the name calling, you are still only left with the option to purchase or not to purchase.

[TheGhost]

Unfortunately, since this thread has gone way off-topic, it will now be closed. Since it was an effort by multiple individuals, I won't be giving out any warnings or anything, but it's really a shame that a thread devoted to accomplishment and progress has been turned into a tirade against game stuiods and ill-mannered debate.

We'll keep you posted, I guess.

Locked.

[Kornman00]

I just fixed my code so that it works with the halo2 xbox alpha again. With a few extra functions, I could easily convert the mongoose to be up to date (which along with many other secret things, was in the alpha) and used in xbox or pc :-3

[Kornman00]

also,
http://kornnersoftware.com/yelo/halo2/alpha/mongoose.png

needs moar halo3 :-3