TeamTalk: Why Bungie Gave Up November?

[Agamemnon]

http://editorials.teamxbox.com/xbox/2029/TeamTalk-Why-Bungie-Gave-Up-November/p1/

He's not joking about going past page three either. If you're going to have a fit about some pre-Halo 3 bashing, then don't even bother to look at it.

[Stealth]

dude, they should release Halo 3 a few days before Grand Theft Auto IV, and steel their thunder.

[Agamemnon]

...So Halo 3 completely overshadows it and Microsoft doesn't make much off of it?

[Skyline]

dude, they should release Halo 3 a few days before Grand Theft Auto IV, and steel their thunder.
Grand theft auto was delayed to 2008.

[Stealth]

ok, never mind about that, but here is something to think about.
I don't know about you guys, but I hate playing MP games/maps with AIs in them, I mean, come one what's the point of having AIs in MP if you're playing MP to play with living breathing humans that are you friends or family? and MP with AIs isn't what I call "True" MP. Yea there is RTS games that AI's (computer player) it's nice to have some AI's cause it's fun to kill AIs in MP with friends in RTS games because you have an army at your comand, not just you, a gun, a few grenades, a power up, and maybe a friend.
I don't play MP to play games by my self with AIs, I play MP games to go and play with real people, that I can talk to, and AIs are some what easy to podit(SP?), Humans aren't as easy.

[thehoodedsmack]

I don't think this guy realises that the HaloWars trailer wasn't ingame, or even running on a 360. I don't even think Bungie made that trailer. So that's a poor justification for why he feels Halo 3's graphics should be similar. As for his attack on MP bots, what Bungie has said is true. Anyone who's dabbled in AI for Halo CE knows that bots can't do a lot.

[Agamemnon]

I don't think this guy realises that the HaloWars trailer wasn't ingame, or even running on a 360. I don't even think Bungie made that trailer. So that's a poor justification for why he feels Halo 3's graphics should be similar. As for his attack on MP bots, what Bungie has said is true. Anyone who's dabbled in AI for Halo CE knows that bots can't do a lot.
He goes on about how it was pre-rendered and wasn't showing off in-game footage.

And if you believe bots can't do much, then you haven't played Quake III Arena.

[thehoodedsmack]

I haven't played "Quake III Arena", but that's beside the point. I believe Halo bots can't do much. Multiplayer wise at least. True, now that we can do co-op online, Bungie could easily do AI in multiplayer, but that's their decision. And besides, it would require extra work to program them to get flags, oddballs, or whatever the devil sort of gametypes are in Halo 3.

[Stealth]

the Halo wars trailer wasn't a "Teaser" trailer, just a "hey look, we're friends with M$ and Bungie and we're making a nice looking Halo RTS" trailer.
and I think HoodedSmack was talking about Halo AIs, and yes they can't do much, they're just as bad as half life 2's AIs, at lest Halo's AI's can use any weapon in game. and I'd hate to see Halo 3 shiped with AIs in MP that aren't turrets. I find that AIs ruine the point of MP it just makes MP feel more SP, just lest things to do, and more things to kill, I find it pointless.

[Zeph]

Halo 3 has such a cult following it would sell millions of copies in -45 degree weather on a christmas sunday while America is being invaded by a foreign country. This guy never even had me at the start. Just look at the development process of Halo 1 and 2. In Halo 1, they were bought out and forced to have a game released for the launch of the xbox. In Halo 2, they came up to E3 and still didn't have much more than a single player demo showcasing what the engine can do. After that, the fans were screaming for Halo 2 to be released and Microsoft said they couldn't delay it any more. With Halo 3, they've mostly learned from their mistakes and picked up with a clear development process from day one after vacations. Even more important, they already knew what they wanted to do with the game more specifically, as Halo 2 had already put them in a position to figure out just how they were going to have to end the mess they made in Halo 2. They've had two and a half years of doing that. If they didn't have a game ready by that time and I was Microsoft, I'd dump most of the studio as they would have shown they cant put together a game.

I really dont understand why graphic style plays soo much of an issue. If Halo 1 and 2 were cell shaded from the start, would people still be comparing it to games like GoW?

[Amit]

Throughout that entire article I kept thinking, "This guy has never liked Halo." Also this guy thinks everything is about graphics. It wouldn't feel liek halo anymore if it had the graphical depth of GOW.

[Agamemnon]

I haven't played "Quake III Arena", but that's beside the point. I believe Halo bots can't do much. Multiplayer wise at least. True, now that we can do co-op online, Bungie could easily do AI in multiplayer, but that's their decision. And besides, it would require extra work to program them to get flags, oddballs, or whatever the devil sort of gametypes are in Halo 3.
No, that is the point. You haven't played a game that's considered to be a pinnacle in FPS gaming history and you haven't touched its bots, which, on the highest difficulty level, can destroy veteran players.

Smart AI is extremely possible. FEAR is a perfect example of that. People keep shooting this down because they're believing what Bungie is telling them, and Bungie could very well do it if they had a bigger, more dedicated staff.


Throughout that entire article I kept thinking, "This guy has never liked Halo." Also this guy thinks everything is about graphics. It wouldn't feel liek halo anymore if it had the graphical depth of GOW.
I got the feeling that he was more so disappointed with Halo 2 then anything else, but I get the feeling more so that he's not one of the millions of blind fans who believe Halo is God and is debunking the hype around the last game, which, I hope, proves to be more then just "Halo 2.5."

[thehoodedsmack]

I'm aware it's possible. I never said it wasn't. I said the AI Bungie has in incapable of good Multiplayer. I'm sure they could do a good job now that they have online co-op worked out, but it's their call whether they decide to or not.

[Saggy]

Why play with bots in a small multiplayer map when you can play huge singleplayer maps with loads of enemies? Bots would never fit into Halo. The only reason it works with Unreal Tournament and all them games is beacuse there the same maps that are in MP and SP and it's more of a "play for fun" mode IMO.

[et_cg]

This thread, among others, seems to prove that everyone has an opinion of their own. :)

[Masterz1337]

Opinions? On the internet? No way!!

[Phalanx_Master]

Why play with bots in a small multiplayer map when you can play huge singleplayer maps with loads of enemies? Bots would never fit into Halo. The only reason it works with Unreal Tournament and all them games is beacuse there the same maps that are in MP and SP and it's more of a "play for fun" mode IMO.


Maybe for practice on a map you sux at?

[IPBJT!]

Maybe for practice on a map you sux at?
I fail to see how such practice would help in a game with real people.

[et_cg]

AI and the human brain work differently.

[legionaire45]

Heres an idea: Imagine your playing a game with 4 people. You want to play a game of CTF with 8 people. 4 more people won't join your game and no one else is currently on that you can invite to your party. Ahh! I can press a couple of buttons and viola, there are now 8 players to play with, making the game much more interesting! What a thought. The only reason Bungie isn't implementing bots is because I imagine it would lag to hell having to deal with all the AI interactions and stuff. Considering how lackluster and cut down the game looks compared to their own E3 2006 trailer, I imagine that Bungie has had quite a lot of fun cutting things down so that the game will even run as is.

Graphically, Halo 3 is nothing compared to other 360 games. And for those of you bitching about graphics not being important, the sad truth is that graphics do sell games. I'm already aware of the fact that everyone and their grandma are going to buy 6 copies of the game each and every day for 7 months after the game's launch simply because of the hype, multiplayer and single player (which I'll rant about in a second), but for someone who is a casual console player who only pays $60 for 1 or 2 games every 6 months, I'd rather wait a month and pick up a copy of GTA or CoD4 when it comes out. Halo 2's story was a bloody train wreck anyway, and I doubt Bungie can fix their mistakes and manage to make this a good game.

"Hey, lets somehow make it so that the UNSC is capable of shitting power weapons out every 5 minutes so that the marines can just noobtube the Covenant to FUCKING OBLIVION."
"Hey, lets make 50 different counters for each weapon so that each round of multiplayer is a giant fucking explosion from all the power weapons! In fact, fuck all the small arms that gave Halo it's character, lets deemphasize them all in favor of a bunch of shitty chainguns, portable shields and lasers that weren't in the first and second Halos for a reason. Walking around with an AR? Watch your step, you may walk into the sights of a Spartan Nuclear Weapon Launcher and be blown to kingdom come!"
"Hey Frankie, I coded in a scene where the arbiter and Master Chief have sex, should it stay?" "SURE, in fact, lets make the Arbiter a sidekick character that is also playable by your 12 year old friends on Xbox Live so that we can build a deep love story between the Chief and the Arbiter. Because whats better then one chaingun toting noob? 4 OF 'EM SHOOTING AT THE SAME THING!"

And finally someone pointed out the fact that the dev team who worked on Halo 1 left Bungie afterwards. The guys currently in charge are fucking failures to be honest.

I've given up on Halo's story. Theres too much convoluted 12 year old fantasy in it to make me want to play it.

Please ignore all of that.

[Limited]

GTA postponed till 2008? Fucking hell.

I think they just wanted halo 3 out earlier than before, i hope they dont postpone halo 3 =\

[Arteen]

Much as the conclusions of these two editors, I’m afraid that Halo 3 will be just more of the same stuff we saw in Halo 2—something that for many of you must be good news, but in the end, it means Halo 3 is just a sequel and not a revolutionary installment that pushes the series again to the forefront of console gaming.I'm looking forward to Halo 3 because I loved Halo 1 and I liked Halo 2. I don't really care that there isn't some huge leap forward between Halo 2 and 3. Halo 2 wasn't satisfying as a sequel to Halo 1, so I hope that Bungie makes Halo 3 what Halo 2 should have been, and that will satisfy me. Besides, it's the main series' final game, so making it revolutionary isn't all that important. I think Bungie would prefer making a revolutionary game with an all-new IP so they have a clean slate with no restrictions. Besides, none of the other games he mentioned appeal to me anyway. I agree with his arguments, but I know what I'm buying with Halo 3 and I'm not expecting any more.

But no bots is very lame. Sometimes I just want to play a game of Halo multiplayer, but I hate all the idiots on Live and CE doesn't always have any good servers.

[Tweek]

I've given up on Halo's story. Theres too much convoluted 12 year old fantasy in it to make me want to play it.

then DON'T play it, nobody CARES!

bungie is making the game, not you, and no matter ow much you spray your displeasure over the internets, they won't listen to you.

THEY are making the game, THEY do what THEY think is best. if you don't like it, then that's too bad. go play a different game then.

[Random]

Considering how lackluster and cut down the game looks compared to their own E3 2006 trailer, I imagine that Bungie has had quite a lot of fun cutting things down so that the game will even run as is.

Graphically, Halo 3 is nothing compared to other 360 games.


http://www.planetxbox360.com/image.php?mw=870&mh=870&sf=0000000209-0000001345.jpg&wp=0

http://www.planetxbox360.com/image.php?mw=870&mh=870&sf=0000000095-0000003265.jpg&wp=2

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1353/full-res/1184143844.jpg

Obviously you disagree but I wouldn't say halo 3 has nothing compared to other 360 games.

And I fail to see how lackluster and cut down the current sp screen shots are compared to the E3 2006 trailer. I am guessing you are bitching about MC's armor and how bungie is now using a different normal map on I now because thats literally the only difference at this time.

[Pooky]

I haven't played "Quake III Arena", but that's beside the point. I believe Halo bots can't do much. Multiplayer wise at least. True, now that we can do co-op online, Bungie could easily do AI in multiplayer, but that's their decision. And besides, it would require extra work to program them to get flags, oddballs, or whatever the devil sort of gametypes are in Halo 3.

Just for putting Quake 3 in quotes like it's some obscure game no one's ever heard of, you should get -rep. But if Bungie's fantastic AI can do incredible, mind blowing things like jump over obstacles, why can't they run in patterns around a map, shooting at targets, throwing grenades when multiple targets are clustered, and melee when targets get close? That's precisely what the AI spends most of its time doing in single player, and there's no reason why playing solo on a simple multiplayer map renders any of that impossible. All they would have to do is modify the existing AI to work with a Spartan MP biped, and add bot paths. Which is pretty much what AI in Quake 3 does. Everyone might have their own opinion, but if you think Bungie can't program AI smart enough to run in laps around a map, I question the validity of yours.

[Atty]

There is a bit more to programming MP AI then telling them to run to point A, kill all opponents in way, and capture flag/grab balls/plant bombs. Bungie has said they have no intention of bringing bots into MP, so why are we even talking about it?

I can't see how Halo could be fun with Bots in MP, maybe it is just because I've got actual friends online at any given time and don't need to resort to playing with a computer. :downs:


Also, on the subject of Halo 3's visuals, I actually prefer them to most other games. I like the art style, as much as I love Crysis and Bioshock, even GTA's style, I still think Halo 3's art style is great.

[Masterz1337]

I fully aggree with Atty. For once.

[Stealth]

There is a bit more to programming MP AI then telling them to run to point A, kill all opponents in way, and capture flag/grab balls/plant bombs. Bungie has said they have no intention of bringing bots into MP, so why are we even talking about it?

I can't see how Halo could be fun with Bots in MP, maybe it is just because I've got actual friends online at any given time and don't need to resort to playing with a computer. :downs:
that's what I said, only more of it, and less sense. but oh well, halo wouldn't be fun with MP AI.

[ExAm]

I agree completely with Atty.


Heres an idea: Imagine your playing a game with 4 people. You want to play a game of CTF with 8 people. 4 more people won't join your game and no one else is currently on that you can invite to your party. Ahh! I can press a couple of buttons and viola, there are now 8 players to play with, making the game much more interesting! What a thought. The only reason Bungie isn't implementing bots is because I imagine it would lag to hell having to deal with all the AI interactions and stuff. Considering how lackluster and cut down the game looks compared to their own E3 2006 trailer, I imagine that Bungie has had quite a lot of fun cutting things down so that the game will even run as is.

Graphically, Halo 3 is nothing compared to other 360 games. And for those of you bitching about graphics not being important, the sad truth is that graphics do sell games. I'm already aware of the fact that everyone and their grandma are going to buy 6 copies of the game each and every day for 7 months after the game's launch simply because of the hype, multiplayer and single player (which I'll rant about in a second), but for someone who is a casual console player who only pays $60 for 1 or 2 games every 6 months, I'd rather wait a month and pick up a copy of GTA or CoD4 when it comes out. Halo 2's story was a bloody train wreck anyway, and I doubt Bungie can fix their mistakes and manage to make this a good game.

"Hey, lets somehow make it so that the UNSC is capable of shitting power weapons out every 5 minutes so that the marines can just noobtube the Covenant to FUCKING OBLIVION."
"Hey, lets make 50 different counters for each weapon so that each round of multiplayer is a giant fucking explosion from all the power weapons! In fact, fuck all the small arms that gave Halo it's character, lets deemphasize them all in favor of a bunch of shitty chainguns, portable shields and lasers that weren't in the first and second Halos for a reason. Walking around with an AR? Watch your step, you may walk into the sights of a Spartan Nuclear Weapon Launcher and be blown to kingdom come!"
"Hey Frankie, I coded in a scene where the arbiter and Master Chief have sex, should it stay?" "SURE, in fact, lets make the Arbiter a sidekick character that is also playable by your 12 year old friends on Xbox Live so that we can build a deep love story between the Chief and the Arbiter. Because whats better then one chaingun toting noob? 4 OF 'EM SHOOTING AT THE SAME THING!"

And finally someone pointed out the fact that the dev team who worked on Halo 1 left Bungie afterwards. The guys currently in charge are fucking failures to be honest.

I've given up on Halo's story. Theres too much convoluted 12 year old fantasy in it to make me want to play it.Hey, knock it off already. One thing that hasn't changed between your last rant and this one, is that the Halo 3 Beta is still gone. This means, of course, that you still haven't played it, and as such still haven't a leg to stand on in judging the weapon balance in the game. If you had actually got the chance to play the beta, then you would know just how incredibly well Bungie's ninjas have balanced the weapon set.

Oh, yes. Bungie has increased the number of power weapons from fucking THREE (In standard PC Halo multiplayer) to a REALLY FUCKING MENACING, UNBALANCING, GAME RUINING SIX. How devastatingly drastic. The reality is, like I've said before, is that even with the new weapons, they are incredibly, uncannily balanced.

Two are machine guns with terrible accuracy at range, which are easily taken out by anyone with a battle rifle, due to the slow pace of the user wielding them.

Two are single shot, explosive-firing weapons, the rocket launcher and fuel rod gun (which may not even be in multiplayer, thereby cutting the number to five), neither of which has homing capability, and will appear just as sparsely as any other weapon, and most probably not even in the same map with each other.

One is a multiprojectile homing missile pod, which is pretty damn hard to use, and has an extremely small load. Again, the user moves at about two thirds the speed of everyone around him.

Last, there's the laser. Admittedly, it could do with a bit of targeting waver, due to the fact that it's an anti-vehicle weapon, but otherwise it's balanced perfectly. Again, it has a low ammo load, and can't be recharged.

Again, I can say, almost certainly, that all of these weapons will never share a map together. The biggest number of power weapons I've seen in any one Halo 3 map is three. The exact number of power weapons in any one Halo PC multiplayer game. :eng101:


I, for one, believe that bots would ruin Halo's multiplayer style. No game I have ever played has had bots that are interesting to fight. As for Quake III Arena's bots, I agree that they have the ability to actually beat someone they're fighting, but that doesn't make them interesting in the least, let alone smart. It just makes them good shots.


In closing, PLEASE have the decency to try a game before you criticize it's gameplay mechanics, especially. If you never got the chance to try it, such as Legionaire here, then please, shut your pie hole about gameplay until you can try it for yourself.

[Agamemnon]

that's what I said, only more of it, and less sense. but oh well, halo wouldn't be fun with MP AI.
And you would know, of course, because you've seen it in action first hand. :downs:

[Stealth]

yes. now I wonder what Bungie has to say about this.

[Agamemnon]

Oh, their usual.

"We're not going to implement AI into multiplayer because we want people to play with other people."

Which actually translates to:

"We have a knack for promising to implement stuff and only put it in the next game, passing it off as a new idea and trying to play off on the idea that we aren't slackers, even though we are."

[Skiiran]

Oh, their usual.

"We're not going to implement AI into multiplayer because we want people to play with other people."

Which actually translates to:

"We have a knack for promising to implement stuff and only put it in the next game, passing it off as a new idea and trying to play off on the idea that we aren't slackers, even though we are."
When did they ever promise bots?

[Kornman00]

That was a very low blow Agame and out of line tbh :|. Still trying to get all of that Halo 2 h8 out?

AI in MP WOULD be a major undertaking. ALL of the tag settings put into the AI are setup and further tweaked for campaign use. Those values aren't always going to be suitable for MP like concepts and would require much more behaviors than the existing set already implemented as the AI now has to work towards multiple goals implicated by the running game engine (ctf, oddball, etc), instead of just the idea of killing the player by any means necessary.
The architecture of the AI and the level are purely setup to be for that idea too. Think about it, how many new game affecting values have been added to the MP games? SHIT LOADS (compared to old builds of the blam engine). You would have to design and test the AI code to work with any configuration the player inputs into game type (ie lower or higher gravity), or forge for that matter. If you actually took the time to research the evolution and design of the engine's AI then maybe you would learn Bungie's decisioning. I would love to continue explaining but I really have better things to do when I already know you are pretty thick headed when it comes to Halo (after Halo 1) :/

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1719/full-res/1181693180.jpg
You call that detailed? Maybe the characters...

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1719/1182800373.jpg
Environment in the background looks alot like its just a bitmap on a skybox



Also, MOAR COMIC, SLAVE O:<!!!!

[Pooky]

There is a bit more to programming MP AI then telling them to run to point A, kill all opponents in way, and capture flag/grab balls/plant bombs. Bungie has said they have no intention of bringing bots into MP, so why are we even talking about it?

I can't see how Halo could be fun with Bots in MP, maybe it is just because I've got actual friends online at any given time and don't need to resort to playing with a computer. :downs:

All that's true, I was just trying to explain it simplistically.

Don't mistake my intention, I don't want bots in multiplayer at all. I just think it's stupid to call it 'impossible'.

[Agamemnon]

When did they ever promise bots?
I was talking about them in general, not just bots.


That was a very low blow Agame and out of line tbh :|. Still trying to get all of that Halo 2 h8 out?
Who says I hate Halo 2?


AI in MP WOULD be a major undertaking. ALL of the tag settings put into the AI are setup and further tweaked for campaign use. Those values aren't always going to be suitable for MP like concepts and would require much more behaviors than the existing set already implemented as the AI now has to work towards multiple goals implicated by the running game engine (ctf, oddball, etc), instead of just the idea of killing the player by any means necessary.
The architecture of the AI and the level are purely setup to be for that idea too. Think about it, how many new game affecting values have been added to the MP games? SHIT LOADS (compared to old builds of the blam engine). You would have to design and test the AI code to work with any configuration the player inputs into game type (ie lower or higher gravity), or forge for that matter. If you actually took the time to research the evolution and design of the engine's AI then maybe you would learn Bungie's decisioning. I would love to continue explaining but I really have better things to do when I already know you are pretty thick headed when it comes to Halo (after Halo 1) :/
Who's fault was it to make it more complicated? Instead of going with it at the beginning and then working around it, it would've been doable, but yeah, at this point and time, it's absolutely ridiculous for them to take the project on because they'd have to put in some serious effort (and God knows they're big on effort :rolleyes:). Though I still feel as if you're making it more complicated then you're really making it. Things like Oddball or the Juggernaut aren't difficult from a basic AI pathset for CTF. You just shift priorities to items/placeholder titles onto players and the bots shift priorities. It CAN be done Korn--if it was a concurent thing in their games they'd probably start saying, "Yeah, since we finally got our hands dirty, we've learned a lot with AI and are onto more ground-breaking things with it." Imagine how the game would be like IF there were actually bots playing what ever random game type you set up.

And as far as my opinion goes for Halo, it really doesn't. It's a fun game in which I hoped for the fun to carry onto a sequel, yet it didn't. With bots I could, instead, go pubbing with bots that don't scream like little girls when capped, or that they don't run the risk of standbying or modding. Hell, they could've even implemented play styles for them as well. It certainly would've been a much more enjoyable experience.


Also, MOAR COMIC, SLAVE O:<!!!!
:ssh:

And I'm also waiting for Possmum to give me those DoD skins.

[Kornman00]

I remember must h8ful posts back on gbx about halo2 and I do believe you used halo2sucks.com for alot of your references :rolleyes:

Had Microsoft not had bought them, who knows if they would have added them at the beginning. But IMO, AI in MP just doesn't sound right in Halo's instance. When I was a younger chap I thought it would have been l337 sauce but then XBL came along, removing the need to use a PC to play against other people. Maybe if the game didn't have such a large fan base and thus not as many players to play against...

Yes, it can be done, but there are better fish to fry now a days. Just because other fucking games have it, what automatically makes every other developer add it to their game (engine)? Go play matchmaking and you get a real game against bipeds that can equal your skill, instead of 4 levels of difficulty AI (not all of them are little girls btw, some are boys :o).

[Agamemnon]

Heh, the GBX days of when I was, what, 15? That was fun getting banned intentionally though.

I don't think including bots is a whole "every other game has them" sort of thing. Bots, as they are now, aren't really all that impressive (depending on the game). I remember when I played BF2 for the first time in single player that I actually said to myself, "Wow, that's interesting how all these different bots are working as a team, utilizing different class types and setting up ambushes" and what not. Again though, you only got that kind of intelligence if you cranked up the difficulty, but that's expected. I'm just saying if Bungie did pursue it, then who knows what would've happened.

But you bring up a good point. This huge cult-like fan base is one of the main things that brings the series down. Hopefully it doesn't bring down the last game.

[Stealth]

well, Halo 3's AIs we don't know how they acted unless you've played the demo at E3, but other then that the shiped Halo 3 might have better AI's and I agree with both of Kornman's post, just because every other game has MP AI's doesn't mean bungie has to go and put AI's in their MP mode for Halo 3. if they did that, in fact if every one did that, games would at some point in time mesh togather, and it'll get to the point where the games just start getting lame. yea in Halo and Halo 2 you can be around a corner and have your flashlight on and the AIs wouldn't even know you're there, and in FEAR the AIs go crazy and trys to find you and kill you. in Halo you've go vehicles that AIs can get into and drive, or get in with you, and Half life 2 you don't have those vehicles. I mean come on, didn't they teach you in school that pre presur is bad. every one's smoking crack, what aren't you? every one's drinking something you don't like, why aren't you drinking with them? same danm thing.

[Tweek]

warning, wall of text ahead:

general+coding point of view:

peronsally, i think bungie would very well be ABLE to put AI in multiplayermaps, it'd just take not only the coders, but also the people that do the AI AND the mappers themselves alot more work.

you can't just dump a few bots in a map and tell them. go play.
they "know" the map. the mappers have you lay out HUNDRED AND HUNDREDS of paths, and locations and possible actions at each point for them to work efficiently. yes, single player AI is awesome, but those are all AI designed to work in a small area. if you run past them, they'll stay behind. like agamemnon said, Battlefield games for example, i know from experience it takes a like 5 times as long to set up a map for bots in that game, than to actually MAKE a map. or something. that's why only 5 maps in BF2142 have the option for bots, and those are very small maps, just to give a slight hint of the amount of effort it costs.

also, communication-wise, bots are ALOT harder on servers than players.
it takes a server almost twice, sometimes three times as much power, or MORE to run a bot, than to regulate a incoming traffic from a player.
and before someone screams about 4-person singleplayer. that's just 4 people, playing in maps that require VERY little extra work to make work in multiplayer(co-op) as well.

it's a matter of weighing the effort against the benefit.
bungie chose to go without bots, and i can't blame em for it.

now from an artist's point of view.

i'm an artist, people know that, i hope so anyway.
but games aren't about graphics! saying: "oh this game looks better than halo3" makes you a moron if you tie any strings to that.
comparing halo3 to gears of war makes you a moron.

halo has a unique style. that's valuable. if you don't know the value of a definable style by game, you're really missing out.
i'm not going to explain this, you either know it or you don't
saying halo3 is halo 2.5 in HD. oh really? did you base that on 3 screenshots? good research.
halo has a style, and stick to it. the amount of art that goes into the Halo games is almost twice, or three times the amount you see in your average AAA-title. they CANT AFFORD to put everything on 5k models and 2048 texturesheets. it'd take the game three times as long to complete. i had a whole story ready for here but i cba since it's 3 AM so bai

[Kornman00]

And also, to reduce the amount of traffic between the host and clients, the game starts at the same time for all clients (and you can't join there after). So even if they did have AI, you couldn't do it in customs, thus pretty much loosing the whole idea.

*expects someone to say how they just want to play by themselves though*
go play campaign :|

EDIT: and I agree, when I was playing halo 3, not once did it feel like halo 2 for me. Did he actually play the beta? Or is he really just using the graphics and his expectation of every bit being detailed out the ass to compare things?

[Agamemnon]

like agamemnon said, Battlefield games for example, i know from experience it takes a like 5 times as long to set up a map for bots in that game, than to actually MAKE a map. or something. that's why only 5 maps in BF2142 have the option for bots, and those are very small maps, just to give a slight hint of the amount of effort it costs.
Good point. Single player missions in BF2 take a good time to load and I imagine that's because it's loading the complexity of the bots and the number of them as well, but when I join a multiplayer game, it's all a matter of loading the map. I'd actually rather have it like BF2 in which you can either play on multiplayer without bots or single player with. That'd be something interesting to do; fire up Halo one rainy day and just play multiplayer off the internet with bots.

Also, Stealth. I understand English isn't your first language but please think before you post.

[Stealth]

I must say tweek, and Kornman knows more then this guy who did the Teamtalk, yes all of the other games look all most real, same does Halo 3, like tweek said, Halo has it's only style, FEAR has it's own style to, and it's "A better game GFX wize" but most of the skins that look great in the dark for that game look like crap in the light, Halo 3 there is alot of light, and some dark parts of the game. and Halo 3 to me was never a Halo 2.5, even when bungie released the first trailer last may, I've been following some of the Halo 3 updates, and I've been following most of the Halo 3 updates with in game screen shots, the only game that I've ever thought was Halo 2.5 was halo 2 vista because it was looking nicer then most screen shots I saw back then, and I still think that just because there is some self shadowing in some of the maps.

Edit | didn't see agamemnon's post.
what, you think I'm not English? and I do think befor posting, just some times what I'm thinking doesn't all end up in my post, do to the fact that I have poor spelling skills, and I'm trying to use the every loving "Period" so I forget something.

[Masterz1337]

Aggy, there are times I like what you post and your intellect, this is not one of them. You need to ask yourself though, why are bots even necessary in a game which multiplayer is built around people. Halo 1 "needs" bots more than h2 or h3, seeing as it has no online.

You call Bungie studios slackers. How many good games have they turned out? How many bad ones? (1, and thats only an opinion.)

They admitted they fucked H2 up. It takes alot of guts for a developer to say that, even when their game is one of the best selling and most popular.

Edit: stealth shut up, you make us all look like idiots

[Stealth]

They admitted they fucked H2 up. It takes alot of guts for a developer to say that, even when their game is one of the best selling and most popular.

yea, that does take some guts to say that.

<snip>

[Agamemnon]

Aggy, there are times I like what you post and your intellect, this is not one of them. You need to ask yourself though, why are bots even necessary in a game which multiplayer is built around people. Halo 1 "needs" bots more than h2 or h3, seeing as it has no online.
It isn't, and I was never arguing that it is, I was just speculating as to how things might have turned out.


You call Bungie studios slackers. How many good games have they turned out? How many bad ones? (1, and thats only an opinion.)
I've called them that based upon their last game. I am, however, optimistic that the company will prove me wrong, but I think the more important question is how many bad games they've made since they sold themselves to Microsoft and how many key members and founders left before Halo 2 production. You have to admit that that's when things started to really change.


<snip>

[Flyboy]

You have to admit that that's when things started to really change.<snip>
I think the big change is the "30 seconds of fun" deal that they fed us in Halo 2. The thing I really really really liked about Halo 1 was when you play it, you get a feeling of randomness every time. You could play through the campaign many many many times and every single second you went through you had to be thinking and stay alert. Same goes for multiplayer (though I would think people would be random in multiplayer anyway).

In Halo 2, after you play a level every few times, it starts to feel, well, scripted. I walk into rooms and whatnot even on legendary already knowing where everyone is, and how to take them on. I find myself on some levels turning my head to an enemy I can't see nor hear, but I just know it's there based on the way things are scripted. Now I admit the first time, the fact that everything seams a little more scripted and organized makes you say wow. However, after you play a level a second or third time it really starts to get old. In order to have fun with the H2 campaign now, I'm finding myself required to play on legendary.

I sort of saw this coming back at the original E3 demo for Halo 2. The way marines called out targets, and the way the AI got into specific positions, like phalanx for jackals, and breach and clear maneuvers for ODST. It makes you think that the AI is super intelligent, however, if you think about it, it would take forever to make AI act like that, so the simple way to do it is scripting, making the player follow a very specific path, and fight very specific groups of enemy, over very specific tactics, and it just starts to get old.

Now the same kind of script obviusly didn't carry over, however, Halo 2 did take a more scripted, "play this way or don't play" approach. The only parts I really have fun on Halo 2 anymore are when I have a choice to go right or go left, to take the warthog or the tank, or just go on foot. To take on the jackal snipers on the rooftops, or dog it out with the elites in a safer spot, these segments really never happen much.

As for the muliplayer in Halo 2, it was a vast improvement over Halo CE's. However, most of the hardcore Halo fans were back in the days of LAN and/or internet to slow for effective online play, meaning Halo's singleplayer was really why it became so popular to them. Halo 2 was a disappointment to the hardcores for this reason, it lacked what made the original so special, the random, unpredictable, and choice filled singleplayer.

[Warsaw]

Certain key moments in the game could be scripted, but normal encounters could be random. According do Bungie, the enemies are more random in Halo 3 than in both Halo 1 and 2.

[Kornman00]

Not to mention even larger encounters :oshi:

[Veegie]

now in multiplayer, you can only have 16 characters (players)
lets assume bungie enjoys big fights and this 16 player limit is for some technical reason
it's not for encounter size, because you have bigger enounters in SP
so it must be.... bandwidth!
so now you know that control data for 16 players saturates bandwidth
but wait, we have more than 16 characters in SP encounters!!!
so we can't suddenly have enough bandwidth to do control data for more characters
basically - ai characters (actors) do not transfer control data over the network at al
it is all done SYNCHRONOUSLY
the game is a deterministic state machine
put in one set of player input and every time it will generate the same results (given the same start state)
which is how saved films work
the saved film is just a recording of input data from controllers (and from e network for remote clients)
From a conversation with Max Dyckhoff I had, about why online co-op wasn't in other Halos.

If it helps anyone...

[Kornman00]

then after words you get filled up with the devil's cock

If it helps anyone...

[Veegie]

what

[Kornman00]

what what in the butt

[jngrow]

Haha, I have seen some valid Halo 3 bashing. This is just "WAH BEGTTAR GFX" and "I LIEK COD4". Too bad Halo 3 has the best water in a video-game ever (so far), especially since it is one of the most complex things to emulate, ever.

[DaneO'Roo]

Meh, AI in UT works well because all the AI is the same.

AI in Halo, theres grunts, brutes, elites drones.

It just wouldn't work right. If you wanna play against single player, PLAY THE FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER.

[ExAm]

The AI in multiplayer is all the same. No need for different classes of AI, since there are only Elites and Spartans, and their behaviors don't need to differ.

[legionaire45]

Alright, I'm going to apologize for my rather zealous and not-too-well thought out post. I never got a chance to read the response to my first rant until after I posted this one, so that was my bad. Since even before I played Halo 2 I "automatically knew it would suck," so when I finally did play it I thought it was terrible regardless of the material presented and now I'm doing the same thing with Halo 3. Since I posted my rant I have taken a long look at some of the screenshots and have noticed a lot of details that I chose not to notice before, although the shadows do look a little bit aliased, which is fine. The details I was griping about are in the armor and all around, it just looks like they changed the skin on the chief to something more subtle that has a smoother quality to it. Other then that though, the designs and everything do look good. Better then a lot of other games for sure.Halo 3 may not end up being the most amazing graphics wise but there still is multiplayer (which I now mention as being a good thing because according to a bunch of people it's balanced, so i'll take their word for it).

I'll try to be less of an overly zealous Halo lunatic next time, who knows, all of this could have been in the original write of Halo's story bible back when it was going to be on the Mac but simply either wasn't implemented or was delayed for some reason relating to the story. Hell, now that I think about it I don't think that it has even been stated what the gap in time between H2 and H3 is yet, so until the game is released we won't know. Unless I missed something again =P.

As for the original topic of the thread, someone made a good point. Bots don't really make too much sense considering how big of an audience Halo has. Even with the 12 year old retards screaming into the mics, you can mute them or ignore them, so I don't think that is a valid argument anymore. Match making is generally pretty quick anyway, and I imagine that people wouldn't be too happy with BF2 AI style load times like someone mentioned. And with Forge I imagine you can choose to not place any of the whorable weapons anyway.

Once again, sorry for my rant. It was uninformed and uncalled for.

[paladin]

The AI in multiplayer is all the same. No need for different classes of AI, since there are only Elites and Spartans, and their behaviors don't need to differ.

No.

[ExAm]

No.Explain.

[Kornman00]

Spartans are not the same as Elites, nor would they be the same in MP. You :fail:

[TeeKup]

The AI in multiplayer is all the same. No need for different classes of AI, since there are only Elites and Spartans, and their behaviors don't need to differ.

With all due respect. Did you even pay attention to the behavior and dialog of the elites in Halo 2?

[Warsaw]

Spartans fight smart. Elites fight honorably (AKA, rush in and get the first kill, and no "cowardly" tactics).

[ExAm]

Why wouldn't they behave the same? Players in a multiplayer game play towards the same goal, no matter what the player model they're using. I would think that the only changes they'd need to make between the Spartan and Elite multiplayer A.I. would be a few dialogue changes, if there is any. Otherwise, the gameplay would get muddled with the different behaviors.

[Veegie]

ExAm, don't be stupid.

[Masterz1337]

Haha, I have seen some valid Halo 3 bashing. This is just "WAH BEGTTAR GFX" and "I LIEK COD4". Too bad Halo 3 has the best water in a video-game ever (so far), especially since it is one of the most complex things to emulate, ever.
Personaly, my favorite water is in Tomb Raider Legends for 360. that was some O_O stuff.

[Kornman00]

Why wouldn't they behave the same? Players in a multiplayer game play towards the same goal, no matter what the player model they're using. I would think that the only changes they'd need to make between the Spartan and Elite multiplayer A.I. would be a few dialogue changes, if there is any. Otherwise, the gameplay would get muddled with the different behaviors.
Don't talk anymore. Just stop.

First, Spartan AI doesn't exist as there are no other spartans in the games (thus far). Second, all configurations in the AI are tailored for campaign use and not for specific objectives found in multiplayer. Don't talk like you know what needs to be done to get AI working in Bungie's engine. You don't. Not even an idea.

[ExAm]

Don't talk anymore. Just stop.

First, Spartan AI doesn't exist as there are no other spartans in the games (thus far). Second, all configurations in the AI are tailored for campaign use and not for specific objectives found in multiplayer. Don't talk like you know what needs to be done to get AI working in Bungie's engine. You don't. Not even an idea. I'm not talking about what needs to be done to the SP AI to turn it into MP AI, I'm talking about how, if there WERE bots in multiplayer, and assuming that multiplayer AI code would have already been written, there wouldn't have to be any real differences between the multiplayer Elite model's AI and the multiplayer Spartan model's AI. This has NOTHING to do with Campaign. I have made this fairly clear.

[Kornman00]

Assuming you wrote the code, then there probably wouldn't be any "real differences"

[ExAm]

Assuming you wrote the code, then there probably wouldn't be any "real differences"
I haven't the slightest clue what you mean by that.

[Terry]

The AI in multiplayer is all the same. No need for different classes of AI, since there are only Elites and Spartans, and their behaviors don't need to differ.

I was under the impression that there wasn't AI in multiplayer considering the characters are player controlled. But who knows :iiam:

[ExAm]

Of course their isn't. That was theoretical.

[Kornman00]

I haven't the slightest clue what you mean by that.

and assuming that multiplayer AI code would have already been written
I'm pretty sure you don't know how bungie would implement it, if they actually wanted to, so you're doing alot of assuming

[ExAm]

Yes, I am :)

[Rosco]

Because their progress was good and they could release it quicker?


.

[Nick]

That was an amazing pile of shit article, appropriately from an amazing pile of shit website.

I bet the writer is poor.

Nick

[Apoc4lypse]

ill only say one thing, he makes a few good points, but hes just bashing w/e...

I do however think MS is rushing bungie... I mean halo 2 took like twice as long, and halo 3 should take the same ammount of time tbh... otherwise we will end up with somthing just a little better than the gfx in halo 2.

Halo 2 took as long as it did because it was redefining its style, and adjusting to new engines and better gfx capabilities with the new generation of gaming. Halo 3 should be no different, it should be adjusting and improving just as much as halo 2 did from halo 1.

EDIT: I loled (nick)

[Nick]

I do however think MS is rushing bungie... I mean halo 2 took like twice as long, and halo 3 should take the same ammount of time tbh... otherwise we will end up with somthing just a little better than the gfx in halo 2.Halo 2 development started a bit before Halo 1 was released on November 8th, 2001. Halo 2 was released on November 9th, 2004. That is 1,097 days (or just about three years) between releases.

Halo 3 development started a bit before Halo 2 was released on November 7th, 2004. Halo 3 will be released on September 25th, 2007. That is 1,052 days (or just about three years) between releases.

After the Halo 2 E3 demo, Bungie pretty much did a "reset" on the development of Halo 2, meaning that they had lost a good chunk of about six months of work. This loss pushed Bungie to make a very tight, well planned out scheduled for their next project - Halo 3.

The size of the development team for Halo 2 was 67 full-time employees. The size of the development team for Halo 3 is 115 full-time employees, with about 135 additional contract employees.

Halo 3 had a public beta test, which provided invaluable data for fine-tuning networking code, play lists, and, potentially, map layouts. Halo 3 has had more private beta testing among Microsoft employees than Halo 2 had, with each tester receiving three builds this year as opposed to one build of Halo 2.

Considering all of the factors, Bungie has hardly been "rushed" to finish Halo 3. They have had more time, more resources, and better scheduling than they ever had with Halo 2 and the quality of Halo 3 reflects that.

Nick

[Masterz1337]

Oh shit! Facts!

[ExAm]

Oh no! Whatever will the doubters do!

[Veegie]

Take pointers from Zeph and jahrain?