If you live in America, this applys to you. If you don't, I am eternally envious.

[Ingulit]

I'm just going to post a link. The video I am linking to is grotesque, blatant, and challenges what 90-ish percent of the world believes, and will probably offend anyone who does not watch it for its entirety. If you consider yourself intellectual, this video is very eye-opening. It is two hours long; do not watch it if you don't think you can commit the time. I'm sure this has been posted here and everywhere on the internet before, but I'm making sure. You have been warned. (If you've already seen it, discuss)

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

[Dole]

Saw it at Gearbox already, and for some reason I can't help but wonder why people only post threads about this after midnight.

None of the anti-Jesus material proves much at all, it's just put in there to take a shot at stirring anxiety in people who aren't actually familiar with those mythological characters. I could elaborate on this for hours, but it's 12:30 at night and it's a topic that I really only care enough to go in-depth with in an actual conversation instead of sporadic back-and-forth posting on an internet forum with people on the other side of the world.

The most I will say for tonight is this: if you can't establish for yourself that the cognation between "son" and "sun" in modern English is not applicable in any way to the language of a Middle-Eastern tribe two millenia ago, then you don't deserve to be getting involved with something of this magnitude to begin with.

However, there are plenty of interesting points that were brought up regarding the planes on 9/11.

[OmegaDragon]

Seen it before in GBX. Pretty Interesting theories in there too. The 9/11 part was also very interesting and had alot of backup on their 9/11 theory.

[ExAm]

Until I see anything that disproves the latter portion of this video, I'll be perpetually freaked out more than I have ever been in my life.

[n00b1n8R]

for those of us who have stupid download caps and don't want to watch a movie for an hour and something, anyone wana give a quick over view?

[ExAm]

I. Jesus is a plagiarism of a lot of significantly more ancient messianic figures, and thus Christianity is a fraud
II. WTC was a government conspiracy (actual convincing evidence this time)
III. US's plan for its citizens, and the world (unified world government, plus what amounts to enslavement of the population)

It all sounds very convincing, even if it's a bunch of the cliche'd theories. They have some backing this time around.

[rossmum]

YAWN.

Anyone can assemble a theory that seems to be true. All you need is a halfway decent understanding of the current world situation, a strong ability to create connections where there may not be any, and a little imagination. Unfortunately, it seems nearly every conspiracy theorist on the face of the Earth falls down on the third.

I won't believe any of it until I see some actual, conclusive evidence.

[Zeph]

The first part is convincing. I've known the zodiac has been prevalent in pretty much all religions in the past. Christianity has always boggled my mind at how it doesn't have many literal relations to the zodiac. I still keep my religious beliefs, but I do accept this at what it is. I've known of a few similarities to other religions, but I had no idea there were that many.

As for dinosaur bones, I believe it's just from a different perspective on the creation of the world. The Bible says the world was made in six days. I've always felt that time is relative here and the six days are used to clearly divide super human events into easily managed parts.

I still find 9/11 messed up. I was watching the broadcast live, at school less than a minute after it hit the air. I actually walked into my second block of the day to see my teacher changing the channel from the clock to the news. I saw the second plane hit. And I saw the first one fall. A guy on the other side of the room said it looked like a professional detonation. Shortly after, people on the network started talking about the same thing. I still dont believe the 'official story'. Pancaking without demolition explosives should have produced larger chunks of the shell remaining intact.
"Of course we're after Suddam Hussein, I mean Osama Bin Laden." How classic
North American Union scares me. I dont know if it's real or fake. It makes sense though. Resetting American currency would be another means of the banks to gain profits on exchange rates.

[Agamemnon]

I. Jesus is a plagiarism of a lot of significantly more ancient messianic figures, and thus Christianity is a fraud
Except six other major religions confirm Christianity.


II. WTC was a government conspiracy (actual convincing evidence this time)
I wouldn't be surprised by this. There isn't even enough convincing evidence on the official government side, though I don't believe the whole government was part of the conspiracy (I have my own theories on our government).


III. US's plan for its citizens, and the world (unified world government, plus what amounts to enslavement of the population)
I'd believe the unified world government, but not the "enslavement" part. If you honestly don't believe that every government in this world doesn't work towards trying to be bigger and better then the other, then you've lived a sheltered life. It's in a government's nature from the day that it was born to expand for its citizens, so there would never come a time when there was a problem in control or in population density.

The Christianity one is the most bogus one out of them all. I specifically love it when conspiracy theorists claim they know what they're talking about when they 1) lack factual evidence and 2) weren't even around at the time the events happened.

[Limited]

Firstly, I havent watched the video for 2 reasons, I dont have the time to watch some thing for 2 hours, and secondly my internet is MEGA slow so it would take ages.

My thoughts on 9/11, is it was a terrorist job, bin laden planned it, but he didnt execute all of it. I do think it was al-queda members who flew the planes into the building, however I also feel it was the US government (some part of it I dunno) that planned and executed the demolisiton of the building and the near by one that collapsed for no reason.

Why? Just like propaganda, used to scare us all into NEEDING the government to do things for US, as people say there was a before 9/11 and theres an after 9/11. Americans are more likely to put up with the US government since 9/11.

Of course the whole thing is alot more complex that what I think but still :) You get the basic picture.

[nooBBooze]

Meh...idk if the current US led globalisation really is explecitly plotted by a bunch of ppl. I tend to believe most things that happen in our world and that are somehow connected with a bigger force (ecomomics, politics) are propelled by a still relatively small groups (compared to world pop) of more or less powerfull people that by chance share the same intrests. and of course the variety of "common intrests by chance" are defined by prevailing comrade capitalism ->accumulation of profit/securing the means to do so/hinder the factors that hemper it.

The US is the most powerful and influential country on this planet and even by thinking of its unopposed military force [including secret ops] im getting sick especially if i consider it in the hands of omnipotent corporations and their hipocrit politicians wich, like i believe, arent specifically involved in a plotted conspiracy, but by chance share the same intrests. And then theres the propaganda. Right wing, left wing,, evangelican its really scary.

The bottomline is, such unopposed military and economical power could eventually lead to monopolism. And for the global government...i dont see the point of officially declaring such a thing when you have the capability to negotiate and therefore impose ur intrests on others (countries?) secretly and without any media attention.

In the end, in times of globalization and the consumer cult 1984 wont feel like 1984 but it will fell allright and righteous in case you should think about such things by then.
:(

[Dole]

however I also feel it was the US government (some part of it I dunno) that planned and executed the demolisiton of the building and the near by one that collapsed for no reason.
I wouldn't say they had accomplished anything at all by demolishing that last building. For the most part, people really didn't know about it at all for a good three months because it was completely eclipsed by the fact that the two largest buildings on the NYC skyline had been thoroughly decimated. Even afterward when people did know about the third building they didn't really care because... well, it was eclipsed by the fact that the two largest buildings on the NYC skyline had been destroyed.

*Cue Veegie to walk into the thread and start yelling at non-atheists*

[Zeph]

I wouldn't say they had accomplished anything at all by demolishing that last building. For the most part, people really didn't know about it at all for a good three months because it was completely eclipsed by the fact that the two largest buildings on the NYC skyline had been thoroughly decimated. Even afterward when people did know about the third building they didn't really care because... well, it was eclipsed by the fact that the two largest buildings on the NYC skyline had been destroyed.
I somewhat disagree. After my band practice that day, I went to Jersey Mikes for a sandwich. They had a news channel on which was talking about the last building that went down. They were replaying footage, showing how there was only minor fires and how it went down like it was professionally being demolished with an implosion. My world geography teacher talked about how it didn't make sense the next day. After that, there was a lack on details as everything was turning into an anti-terror, searching for survivors, and those 'war of terror' animations started showing up.


Except six other major religions confirm Christianity.

I'm sorry, but what are the six major religions?


The Christianity one is the most bogus one out of them all. I specifically love it when conspiracy theorists claim they know what they're talking about when they 1) lack factual evidence and 2) weren't even around at the time the events happened.
You cant use the word fact when dealing with religion. I mean, just to counter you there to show what I mean, you cant show factual evidence the religion is correct. That's the basis of religions: faith. The points made in here are basically saying Christianity has a striking number of the same things going for it as the other historical religions. Also, for such miraculous events, no scholars or historians document anything about it in their notes. There are only three writings outside the Bible about Christ, and it's only a title which could relate to anyone. That pretty much leads up to mistranslations from older versions up to the more recent ones.

I've had a chance to read and compare the King James version with another one that's been translated to help the modern person read it and understand it. Basically, it takes the 'and ye shall go forth to thou home' stuff and replaces it with 'and you should go home'. The meaning in many verses and chapters are completely lost while new meaning shows up out of new places where there was none before. You can imagine the differences in meaning between the original Greek version and the King James.

[Agamemnon]

I'm sorry, but what are the six major religions?
Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, the Baha'i Faith, and Judaism.


You cant use the word fact when dealing with religion. I mean, just to counter you there to show what I mean, you cant show factual evidence the religion is correct.
No, you cannot, and it's all a matter of perception, but what we can show is that civilization, as we know it, did not form until a basis of religion evolved from some place. Every government's laws are governed by various religious laws, and that's something even my atheist friend can't deny. Yeah, you don't need to be religious to be a good person, but the qualities that define someone as a "good person" do come from religious teachings.


That's the basis of religions: faith. The points made in here are basically saying Christianity has a striking number of the same things going for it as the other historical religions. Also, for such miraculous events, no scholars or historians document anything about it in their notes. There are only three writings outside the Bible about Christ, and it's only a title which could relate to anyone.
Wait, are you saying that zero historians document Christianity?


That pretty much leads up to mistranslations from older versions up to the more recent ones.
That's no secret. The Catholic Church has been proven to be corrupt in the past. I wouldn't find it surprising if they've altered the text greatly. There are even gaps of Jesus' life that are missing in the Bible. The point here, of course, is that this is a clergyman's doing, not a higher being's doing. Man corrupted religion in its entirety because they saw it as an opportunity to gain power and strike fear in the masses. It's a shame that people have to be classified into two groups now when it comes to religion; zealots and atheists. I have yet to find someone who can calmy speak about religion without spouting out Jesus is the only prophet from God and then someone countering that God doesn't exist.

Sorry, not trying to get into a debate here or anything with you Zeph.

[Dole]

What do Buddhism and Hinduism have to do with Christianity, much less have anything to attest to it? For that matter, I can't see how Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Islam did along those lines. Yes, the two latter acknowledge Christ's existence as a being and a prophet, but they don't confirm His divine nature.


That's no secret. The Catholic Church has been proven to be corrupt in the past. I wouldn't find it surprising if they've altered the text greatly. There are even gaps of Jesus' life that are missing in the Bible.
No, those errors come from translating a 2,000 year old Hebrew minority dialect into ancient Greek, and then into Latin, and then into Old, Middle, and now Modern English... not to mention the Quelle resource somewhere along the line.

And then the gaps of Jesus' life that are not described in the Bible weren't expunged, they were just never documented.

[Agamemnon]

Both talk about the coming of different religions (if you can find doctrine text that hasn't been altered). Before Hinduism was seriously altered as well, their prophet, Krishna, shared a great number of glaring similarities that relate to Jesus (or, in chronological sense, vice versa). If you believe in the religious context that each prophet mirrors the one before him in a certain way, then it's another sign in faith that they support another religion.

Also, every religion I just listed (including Christianity) all mirror the same teachings (again, if you can find unaltered doctrine text). Unfortunetely, the only text that you will find in which another religion agrees to the claim that Jesus was the son of God is the Baha'i Faith (again, I would blame this on clergymen of old).

[Con]

Wait, are you saying that zero historians document Christianity?

I think he meant that nobody was documenting an individual person called jesus at that time performing miracles blah blah blah, and the historians documenting Christianity only did so after it had been established.

I just finished watching this movie, and I must say I've very convinced about the whole government conspiracy thing. I'm glad we don't have that shit up here...or do we :tinfoil:

[Agamemnon]

If that's the case Conscars, then I wouldn't be surprised about something like that as well. Christians were persecuted for about 200 or 300 years after Jesus was crucified, and I'm sure even a Roman historian mentioning him in their writings as anything other then a fraud would've been grounds for being crucified as well.

Again, all a matter of us not being there. My theory can't be proved either.

[Con]

It's just kind of strange that the only place you hear about jesus doing that stuff is in the bible.

[Dole]

You don't. Islam provides rudimentary corroboration for what is documented in the Bible as well, and then there are the sources that the Bible was derived from (the Quelle and the original Gospels).

Christians were persecuted for about 200 or 300 years after Jesus was crucified, and I'm sure even a Roman historian mentioning him in their writings as anything other then a fraud would've been grounds for being crucified as well.
.

Historians were men of great esteem who had to protect their authenticity in the public eye, especially members of the ruling race (Romans like Tacitus, Plinius, and Suetonius).

[SnaFuBAR]

tbh, 9/11 was done with demolition explosives. there have been other instances of large (even larger than these planes) crashing into steel frame buildings, none of which have ever been conceivably close to collapse. the most that happened was that the upper floors were incinerated.

no steel frame buildings collapse from aircraft impacts. EVER. couple that with the fact that witnesses inside the building heard multiple, small charges going off (aka demolition charges) and the fact that the buildings fell perfectly into their footprints at the exact rate they should for a planned demolition means quite simply, IT WAS PLANNED.

also take in the fact that wtc buildings all had security and cameras shut off in service areas for 2 weeks with bomb sniffing dogs removed, and well, what do you think?

[Emmzee]

There is no Cabal.

[CN3089]

HARBL HARBL BUSH DID 9/11 PROFESSIONAL DEMOLITION HARBL HARBL NEW WORLD ORDER HARBL HARBL
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/i_want_to_believe-web.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/rolleyesbarf.gif
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/i_want_to_believe-web.jpg

fake edit: seriously are you guys just trolling or do you actually believe this crap

[Veegie]

tbh, 9/11 was done with demolition explosives. there have been other instances of large (even larger than these planes) crashing into steel frame buildings, none of which have ever been conceivably close to collapse. the most that happened was that the upper floors were incinerated.

no steel frame buildings collapse from aircraft impacts. EVER. couple that with the fact that witnesses inside the building heard multiple, small charges going off (aka demolition charges) and the fact that the buildings fell perfectly into their footprints at the exact rate they should for a planned demolition means quite simply, IT WAS PLANNED.

also take in the fact that wtc buildings all had security and cameras shut off in service areas for 2 weeks with bomb sniffing dogs removed, and well, what do you think?
</loose change>
No (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons) but... not really (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07).

[SnaFuBAR]

i expected the usual trolls to show up sometime soon. glad you guys are here.

[Veegie]

Snafubar, please go ahead with your point-by-point-debunking of this article which states facts (http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm). Since you're clearly the authority on the subject to be able to make completely unrelated posts.

So continue on with your argument against a fact sheet. Oh wait... fact sheet...

[SnaFuBAR]

clearly, you're an expert because you can look at a fact sheet and link to it on a forum. i won't waste my time.

[Neuro Guro]

I'm reading this thread and thinking to myself what would I like to post as my opinion to what I think about 9/11, (and yes I am a american btw) but I can't think of anything. You want to know why? Because I honestly don't even care about it.

[Warsaw]

I was just thinking the same thing.

Conspiracy theories don't produce anything useful.

[Neuro Guro]

Crying over spilled milk doesn't clean it up.

[Teh Ganon]

That video... I listened to it while surfing the web. i was like ok... I was thinking about some of it, but since im just a fat beer drinking oreo munching american I wasnt very perseptive to it. I lol'd at the beginning though. I can't recal a time that iv'e heard someone say bullshit so influentually. whats that make me to optimistic people? ignorant... please dont rant :(

[Veegie]

clearly, you're an expert because you can look at a fact sheet and link to it on a forum. i won't waste my time.
Well hey, you're accepting that you can't disprove facts.
At least we've gotten somewhere today.

[Apoc4lypse]

Well, I personally find the movie entertaining, judging it by entertainment level, this stuff gets my attention and entertains me, idk why.

However, its there word, against the word of those who there going against.

I was talking with my friend about the video and this describes it exactly I think... lol

"they say you shouldn't believe what they tell you without questioning it, you should believe what we tell you without quesationing it!"

The video tries to make them seem right by that whole speech in the beginning about finding the truth, in reality there only giving you there version of the truth by going to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum and becoming hypocrites.

Thats not to say all of what there saying is wrong, but thats also not to say all of what they say is right...

I found the Bible section interesting, but in the end its all metaphorical... I how ever like letting my mind wander off in what if land and like to think about conspiracies. As for the 9/11 section, some of it I found rather scary, the accusations they claimed, but in the end its just another well drawn conspiracy theory that in no way can really be proven with out a doubt, the same way we cannot say our government had nothing to do with 9/11. The part on the Revolutionary War and Currency I got a little confused, and I'm still watching it though....

for now though, I say the Real truth is we just don't know, this is one of the reasons I am not religious.

I liked his skit on religion in the beginning lmao... cuz its so true.


EDIT: Wait wait wait wait wait wait...

There is no law that says I have to pay an income tax?

I wanna see proof of that one... if so... lmao I dont plan on paying shit to them.


EDIT: Done watching... very good movie, very questioning, a lot of conspiracies.

The end however could make someone paranoid lol


oh yea, this guy gave me a new sig lmao.

[Limited]

Well hey, you're accepting that you can't disprove facts.
At least we've gotten somewhere today.Facts? You mean the facts the US government told you? Veegie you are blinded by ignorance.

I still dont see why FBI took the video tape of the pentagon from that hotel so fast....whats there to hide? It was like it was on there agenda.

Neuro you dont care? You dont care about something that 100% effects your future? Fair enough.

[et_cg]

If you ask me, whoever put this video together did a lot of digging that people won't believe, because they could never find that information themselves. Honestly, entertainment is blinding us. It gives is scenarios like these, and then at then end of that entertainment, we wonder, is this real? And we go, nah... because we're in the US.

But then again, they silence people who disprove or go "of course."

Essentially with the planned bar code identification and the RFID chips, you can see less people doing things like Zeitgeist, or even existing.

It's quite eye opening to me, because I never really did that much research on religion, 9/11, or even our own governments plans. So in essence, after learning what this video has depicted, I will further with my own research. I will do my best to do what I can. Because I really don't believe the US government has their own story straight, let alone those countries that are in ties with the US.

[CN3089]

EDIT: Wait wait wait wait wait wait...

There is no law that says I have to pay an income tax?

I wanna see proof of that one... if so... lmao I dont plan on paying shit to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Code

what up

also obligatory

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/rolleyesbarf.gif


Facts? You mean the facts the US government told you? Veegie you are blinded by ignorance.

Facts? You mean the facts the makers of Zeitgeist/Loose Change/the 9/11 'truth' movement told you? Limited you are blinded by ignorance.



I still dont see why FBI took the video tape of the pentagon from that hotel so fast...

yeah man what would the Federal Bureau of Investigation possibly do with evidence man gosh it's all suspicious if you ask me man

[Agamemnon]

It's quite eye opening to me, because I never really did that much research on religion, 9/11, or even our own governments plans. So in essence, after learning what this video has depicted, I will further with my own research. I will do my best to do what I can. Because I really don't believe the US government has their own story straight, let alone those countries that are in ties with the US.
Better late then never to start doing your own research. Like I've said before, there's always two extreme sides, and the majority of people fall into both categories, and in these two categories both people demand changes, yet neither ever get anything accomplished and only further create a bigger rift between each other.

[Warsaw]

Sounds like American political parties to me.

[Mass]

I thought it was for the most part faily convincing. The part I found most believable was the section about the last 60 years and the neocon philosophy and such. I actually do believe that iraq and afghanistan and iran are staged to make money for military contracters who happen to be friends with people in the bush administration. Also I remember hearing that an FBI informant was actually renting rooms to the hijackers.
The US didn't stage the attack they just made sure that they did absolutely nothing to stop it.

The whole idea is that by putting people into a never ending war you'll have a permanant state of fear and more control over people. Plus all the money goes to them during warfare so win/win. The neocons are basically attempting to reinstate the cold war, as they have been since it ended. So who cares for 3,000 americans and 600,000 Iraquis, I mean, c'mon, only poor people are in the army anyway. :rolleyes:

[Dole]

I don't understand why he goes to such great lenghts to dismiss religions and then play a clip that barks out against a Godless society and try to revive in the viewer the sense of a world permeated by one spirit and operating as one organism.

[Limited]

Facts? You mean the facts the makers of Zeitgeist/Loose Change/the 9/11 'truth' movement told you? Limited you are blinded by ignorance.
Lol, to doubt? no, so you believe everything the US government says?



yeah man what would the Federal Bureau of Investigation possibly do with evidence man gosh it's all suspicious if you ask me manRead what I put.


I still dont see why FBI took the video tape of the pentagon from that hotel so fast...
I can understand why they would take it like a day or so after, but its like they immediately knew to take it, they took it quicker than emergency vehicles got there, right?

There was definitly a coverup, its been documentated and proven, we just dont know to what extend it was covering up.

[Con]

wait.. so if a plane supposedly crashed into the side of the pentagon, and if it was actually a fake and there was no plane at the crash site like the movie said, what happened to the actual flight with the actual people on it? All those people just disappeared into thin air?

[Limited]

wait.. so if a plane supposedly crashed into the side of the pentagon, and if it was actually a fake like the movie said, what happened to the actual flight with the actual people on it?Imprisioned? Killed? If they were happy to kill those innocent people in the towers, killing a plane full of people would be nothing to them.

Also, dont put any thing past US government, they nuked Japanese for christs sake, killing tons of innocent people.

Oh and to those people who think I just hate US and dislike every US ciziten, no, I'm only pissed at the US government people bush lied about the weapons of mass destruction, along with his "goonies", which subsequently killed british service men, over what? oil? money?

[Teh Ganon]

Also, dont put any thing past US government, they nuked Japanese for christs sake, killing tons of innocent people.

There are more perspectives to that story.

[Roostervier]

Imprisioned? Killed? If they were happy to kill those innocent people in the towers, killing a plane full of people would be nothing to them.

Also, dont put any thing past US government, they nuked Japanese for christs sake, killing tons of innocent people.

Oh and to those people who think I just hate US and dislike every US ciziten, no, I'm only pissed at the US government people bush lied about the weapons of mass destruction, along with his "goonies", which subsequently killed british service men, over what? oil? money?
Wait what? "Lied?" Excuse me, but there is proof that traces of the weapons were found. But really... Bush lied about it? Also, killed British servicemen? If you are referring to the war, then I believe it would not be the Americans' decision to send British troops off to war. If this isn't what you meant, or I am interpreting something wrong, please let me know. And still you bring up that nuking. One, this happened 60 years ago, not all the same people are in office. Two, war is war. You can't change it. You can add the rules of engagement, but seriously. People die in wars, that is how it works. I am in no way condoning war, it's just that it seems you cannot not get over the fact that death is a by-product of war. If you can't deal with that truth then quit getting in debates about such matters. The US made a mistake, others have too. What's in the past is now what is gone, we can't take it back. You don't realize how many people would really want to. Anyway, I am just so happy everyone decides to pick Bush to blame. Seriously, don't bullshit yourselves into thinking that you would refrain from blaming Al Gore, had he been elected. I really don't prefer Republicans over Democrats, nor vice versa. I am a libertarian. I pick the man that won't fuck up our already fucked up system any more than it is. Now, I've strayed off subject--I apologize. I like how people talk about facts, then make accusations about oil and money in Iraq without proof. Nice way to be a hypocrite. Also, if you do have proof, then show it to me. And it had better not be a wikipedia article (wiki has already proven enough of a liability for papers for me to know not to trust anything on it) or some video on YouTube.

There is an odd peculiarity in this topic. Rather than the Americans being patriotic (with the exception of a few), it's the other countries. That really is how it is on this board. In fact, that's how it is in the world. Well, I guess America just sucks then, D: I really hope no one makes claims of anyone else being blinded by ignorance any more, as those who claim it are equally ignorant. Limited, I am sorry to say it, but you are just as "blinded" as CN3089. Anyone with extreme patriotism is blinded so. Just do not make any more references to it please. CN3089 had a point--you say we are blinded because we listen to our own government. Yet you believe a video on the internet? :X

[Veegie]

Facts? You mean the facts the US government told you? Veegie you are blinded by ignorance.

I still dont see why FBI took the video tape of the pentagon from that hotel so fast....whats there to hide? It was like it was on there agenda.

Neuro you dont care? You dont care about something that 100% effects your future? Fair enough.
Those facts exist no matter who tells me them, hurr.

[rossmum]

CN more or less summed it up. While there probably is a fair bit of stuff going on that we don't know about, stuff like this is largely constructed in such a manner that the audience then begin to make more connections that don't exist.

Also, FR - he may have meant the ones who were caught on the wrong end of an A-10 attack, because the pilot was too fucking stupid to realise the whole 'huge orange tarp' thing meant Coalition vehicles.

[Mass]

Also, dont put any thing past US government, they nuked Japanese for christs sake, killing tons of innocent people.


FYI that was in order to save the US from engaging in a longer bloodier war that could have killed just as many people, including americans. A government at war will rather kill "enemy" civilians than its own troops.

[Roostervier]

Oh, well, thanks for clarifying (ross). After all, that is what I had asked for. Eh, thanks again.

[rossmum]

FYI that was in order to save the US from engaging in a longer bloodier war that could have killed just as many people, including americans. A government at war will rather kill "enemy" civilians than its own troops.
Not to mention more would've died anyway (civilians, I mean). The Japanese mindset around that time was largely based on traditional Samurai values, pretty much placing honour over everything. If you can't beat them, you kill yourself. I don't know if it's still like that today, but chances are a land invasion would've seen a hell of a lot of deaths on both sides.

It was a shitty thing to do, but it had to be done.

[Mass]

Not to mention more would've died anyway (civilians, I mean). The Japanese mindset around that time was largely based on traditional Samurai values, pretty much placing honour over everything. If you can't beat them, you kill yourself. I don't know if it's still like that today, but chances are a land invasion would've seen a hell of a lot of deaths on both sides.

It was a shitty thing to do, but it had to be done.

exactly.

[Limited]

Wait what? "Lied?" Excuse me, but there is proof that traces of the weapons were foundUh, havent bush and his goonies said there wasnt any WM'ds and they made a mistake? I've never seen proof of these traces of WM'ds.


If you are referring to the war, then I believe it would not be the Americans' decision to send British troops off to war.Ever since bush declared the war on terror, other countries had to help, Britain is Americas number 1 ally, it would look bad if we didnt join in, although I bet Blair did talk to Bush about the possibilities of war before it started.

I know it happened 60 years ago, I know the same president isnt in office, but that doesnt mean the government has learnt from their mistakes.


Nice way to be a hypocrite. Also, if you do have proof, then show it to me.
If there was proof, Bush and his goonies would be in jail right now, due to impeachment. But if you want the documentary thing I said about, google "Horizon", its a BBC side company that does documentations about things.

Oh so disagreeing with what America does makes me patriotic? dude, I relise England is part of the whole picture, but the driving force is USA, UK wants and will withdraw troops soon, for US seems like they never will =\.


Yet you believe a video on the internet? :X Like I said, I didnt even watch the video :O burn.


Those facts exist no matter who tells me them, hurr.
Facts? Facts means they are true, which they are not. Please just call it "information".

[Archon23]

The only thin I ever wondered about 9/11 is where the fuck was the plane debris?

[n00b1n8R]

well IIRC their was quite a fire >__>

and you can hardly deny that plains did crash into it <__<

[Warsaw]

Noes, it was UFOs, which incidentally makes it an IFO, having been identified as a UFO...:iiam:.

[et_cg]

I don't understand why he goes to such great lenghts to dismiss religions and then play a clip that barks out against a Godless society and try to revive in the viewer the sense of a world permeated by one spirit and operating as one organism.

His opening section of the story was to give you the idea of what the video was comparing our world as of today to.

Religion.

From his perspective (which I will say, I do agree with) and what he has displayed in the video, is that religion is a large set of false storys based off of astrology. Now after "Jesus" died, we see how people took this story, and turned it into something for others to be dumbed down by, and told countless of lies and given something to believe and cruch themselves on.

Basically, in comparison to the rest of his film, it's all about the same thing. We have these corrupt leaders, these story tellers, these planners that all have a goal set in mind by an "Elite group" which basically is in control of our world. These elite people set out to get the world to believe what they want them to, do what they want them to, and ultimately, just hand over control, and use this elite group as a cruch.

Religion post-christ was controlled by an inadequate group. They could no longer sustain themselves in this storyline of events, and thus the thoughts of religion dwindled, along with peoples beliefs in other things which have been challening what religion really is to this day.

Now that we have something like the Rockefeller family in ties with our government, our money system, and our world, and assuming they get what they want, we'll most likely see a system that seems stable for a while.


Too bad this wasn't like life in City 17, the war would be over in 4 hours, and we'd all be living lives under the combine's rule.

[Warsaw]

War was over in seven hours, not four (hence the "Seven Hour War") :p.

If you ask me, religion is a twisting of actual events by a group of people in order to gather the easily convinced, ignorant minds of their time to follow their lead with a set of morals designed to suppress human nature and promote the following of their established system. The passing down from generation to generation is what the individuals who created it in the first place wanted, to stay in power even after death. It keeps those at the top of the hierarchy rich with their followers money, because the followers pay to save their souls from an alleged damnation. It's like a corporation whose product is "salvation."

For the record, I believe in God, but I don't believe in the Church or any other established system.

[et_cg]

Oops, I'm not a big HL2 junkie, I just love it's worlds political stance. They did a great job with its story line. And it's universal story.

[SnaFuBAR]

Wait what? "Lied?" Excuse me, but there is proof that traces of the weapons were found.
Yes, it was proven that the "evidence" was not conclusive. there were no "traces" of any WMD's. There were lots of photos of big trucks that turned out to be totally harmless.

[n00b1n8R]

Personally, I do belive that religion is a cruch.

back thousands of years ago, humans had no way of explaining things like the sun and the moon and all that. but humans need an explenation (no exceptions), so they decided it must be some super natural thing causing them. supernatural things are, by their verry nature impossible to explain so it was left as that. then people started noticing what other people would do for these super natural beings and that's how major religions (with religios "leaders") started popping up in every human society around the world.

these days, we have this thing called "science" that has this annoying habbit of coming up with logical explinations and observible means of how and why things like the sun and moon exist. science keeps stepping forwards and religion keeps retreating back to the shadows where science hasn't got to yet.

religion is a cruch, those who claim you need it to guide you moral compas do nothing more than reveal their dependince on it as a cruch for their own misgivings.

edit: also, POSTAGE RUSH MUCH??

[SnaFuBAR]

Personally, I do belive that religion is a cruch.

back thousands of years ago, humans had no way of explaining things like the sun and the moon and all that. but humans need an explenation (no exceptions), so they decided it must be some super natural thing causing them. supernatural things are, by their verry nature impossible to explain so it was left as that. then people started noticing what other people would do for these super natural beings and that's how major religions (with religios "leaders") started popping up in every human society around the world.

these days, we have this thing called "science" that has this annoying habbit of coming up with logical explinations and observible means of how and why things like the sun and moon exist. science keeps stepping forwards and religion keeps retreating back to the shadows where science hasn't got to yet.

religion is a cruch, those who claim you need it to guide you moral compas do nothing more than reveal their dependince on it as a cruch for their own misgivings.

edit: also, POSTAGE RUSH MUCH??
actually The Holy Qu'ran explains much of what we know exactly as we know it scientifically today, and much before any of these scientific processes existed. a certain kind of algebra that has only come up in the past 40 years in the west has been part of islamic artistic images for almost 1500 years.;)

[Dole]

1. Uh, havent bush and his goonies said there wasnt any WM'ds and they made a mistake? 2. I've never seen proof of these traces of WM'ds.

...

3. I know it happened 60 years ago, I know the same president isnt in office, but that doesnt mean the government has learnt from their mistakes.


4. If there was proof, Bush and his goonies would be in jail right now, due to impeachment. 5. But if you want the documentary thing I said about, google "Horizon", its a BBC side company that does documentations about things.

...

6. Like I said, I didnt even watch the video :O burn.
1. It would be much easier to put faith in the testimony of someone who didn't just repeat "Bush and his goonies" to no end as if that actually made his case more effective.
2. Because it was only in the concern of media for a very brief time. As he said, it was only proof of a since-sterile operation to produce material necessary for the creation of WMD's, not a fully stocked and fully manufactured underground weapons cache. Not being the latter, it wasn't thought to be concrete enough for worry, so it was dismissed pretty quickly.
3. You're kidding right? After all the flak that the government took after that move of course they wisened up to that. Otherwise, no one would've made it out of the Cold War alive... no one.
4. But there isn't proof... that's exactly the topic at hand, and it makes all the difference in the world. :-|
5. For all we know, a ragtag group of interns for a BBC subsidary are probably responsible for this "Zeitgeist" shenanigan. If you don't have the interest to chance your faith in this video, why should we waste our time with yours?
6. Hardly. You didn't watch the video that this thread revolves around, and yet you expect him to cater to your handicap?


... 1. is that religion is a large set of false storys based off of astrology. 2. Now after "Jesus" died, we see how people took this story, and turned it into something for others to be dumbed down by, and told countless of lies and given something to believe and cruch themselves on.
1. And yet if it didn't have such a solid connection to the physical world, people would have instantly rebuked it as a fairy tale that was too fantastic to be worth donating their attention to.
2. So you're saying a small contingent of tribal Jews in at the frontier of the empire subverted the Roman government because they were pulling the strings on the business of statesmen in Italy with their liez?

The people who missioned the religion from its conception were not high-profile conspirators, they were people who went out and preached compelled by ardor. None of them gained anything from it, no large estates or vast stores of personal wealth, no political influence or large armies of undaunted, brainwashed slaves. Whatever they had they relinquished for the sake of being able to preach another day. They had just enough to carry on their mission and nurture the communities they had already managed to establish, and they died with absolutely nothing for themselves.

:v
*This post brought to you by the word "cruch," which in turn is brought to you by Noobinator... no wait, by et_cg about three posts earlier.

[n00b1n8R]

actually The Holy Qu'ran explains much of what we know exactly as we know it scientifically today, and much before any of these scientific processes existed. a certain kind of algebra that has only come up in the past 40 years in the west has been part of islamic artistic images for almost 1500 years.;)

o'rly?

I need to get me some of that arab voodoo then >__>

[CN3089]

o'rly?

I need to get me some of that arab voodoo then >__>

Yes, because most/all Muslims are Arab, and voodoo is equatable with Islam.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-doh.gif


e: also, obligatory

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/rolleyesbarf.gif

for a great "ISLAM = SCIENCE LOL" gem from SnaFuBAR.

[Limited]

1. No, I dont put faith into judgements like that, thats only what bush does.
2. Oh, you mean the faciltlies that were able to make WMD's if they needed to? Yeah, thats really proof they HAVE WMD's isnt it. Bush and his "goonies" said they KNEW he HAD WMD's, not the fact they could make them. Then they later said "oh there wasnt any my bad"
3. :) Maybe not rush into wars then? Like iraq
4. Um, they lied? Thats proof enough for me, they mislead America and the world
5. Horizon is known around the globe, I'm not sure why you havent heard of it.
6. Just putting it on the table, doesnt mean you have to touch it.

ztC__H76PMA
(Warning: Contains images of war, terrorism and stupid politicians)

[Mass]

4. If there was proof, Bush and his goonies would be in jail right now, due to impeachment.



oh, how I would love to be able to agree with that...

Also I hate people who know nothing about islam, I mean there's no excuse, I mean we're supposedly "at war with them" anyway.


Originally posted by- American R-tards
-arabs wear turbans
-all muslims are arabs and vice versa
-pakistan and india are arab nations
-being arab has something to do with being a terrorist
-arabs speak islamic

and many, many more.

[n00b1n8R]

Yes, because most/all Muslims are Arab, and voodoo is equatable with Islam.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-doh.gif


I thought the term "voodoo" would give away it was a joke.

also lol@pic.

[Aerowyn]

Anyone can assemble a theory that seems to be true. All you need is a halfway decent understanding of the current world situation, a strong ability to create connections where there may not be any, and a little imagination.

DO I SMELL SCIENTOLOGY?!

Quick, someone call Tom Cruise!

[n00b1n8R]

don't call tom, I like my couch how it is :saddowns:

[et_cg]

...2. So you're saying a small contingent of tribal Jews in at the frontier of the empire subverted the Roman government because they were pulling the strings on the business of statesmen in Italy with their liez?...

Never did I say such a thing.

I was using the films comparitive example just to try to clear up unclear thinking, or perhaps generate more interest as to why the two topics are in the video.

I mean, you asked this question yourself:


I don't understand why he goes to such great lenghts to dismiss religions and then play a clip that barks out against a Godless society and try to revive in the viewer the sense of a world permeated by one spirit and operating as one organism.

Now I wasn't trying to get any words stuffed down my mouth. I was just trying to get a better idea out there as to why the topic of religion was displayed first, then onto a godless society.

Just forget I tried to help, Dole.

[Mass]

I thought the term "voodoo" would give away it was a joke.

also lol@pic.

yeah, you just reminded me of how much I hate people like that.

I remember someone but a "No Arabs, No Terror." sticker on my mailbox once.
Which is wierd cause I'm jewish so it was like, huh?

[n00b1n8R]

America has too many ignorant people :saddowns:

[Agamemnon]

The world*

It's funny how everyone is arguing about whether their were WMD's at those housing sites that specifically acted as factories for creating WMD's and then those people believe it was "a lie." I mean, the UN only gave them about three month's notice that they should get their stuff cleaned up. When they found empty casings for the warheads and what not, the UN only gave them a slap on the wrist. "Bad Saddam, bad bad."

Yeah, I'm sure that did a lot, and I'm sure Saddam didn't move his stock pile in the three month's he had to any where else. Definitely not. I mean, if I were in his shoes and that I knew that if the UN found warhead stockpiles in my country that there would be such an outrage from every country, that then America wouldn't be on its own as well, but would have strong allies, then I would've definitely left those warheads there.

But, alas, it's all about politics nowadays. Yes, let's fool ourselves into believing an American president lying is something new. Yeah, no president before him has lied or has pulled blankets over people's heads, nor has any other world leader in any other world government. Remember kids, it's just Bush!

[Dole]

I was just trying to get a better idea out there as to why the topic of religion was displayed first, then onto a godless society.

Just forget I tried to help, Dole.
What I asked was a rhetorical question. I had for myself caught onto everything that you said, but it still doesn't explain his entire mindset by the end of the film. I was rebuking him through you. (yes, I'm aware, stupid move)

[CN3089]

On a completely unrelated note, I really like this article (http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/02/20/bayoneting-a-scarecrow/).


The obvious corollorary to the belief that the Bush administration is all-powerful is that the rest of us are completely powerless. In fact it seems to me that the purpose of the “9/11 truth movement” is to be powerless. The omnipotence of the Bush regime is the coward’s fantasy, an excuse for inaction used by those who don’t have the stomach to engage in real political fights.

[thehoodedsmack]

^ I like that article too!

[Texrat]

It's funny (to me anyway) to sit back and watch the shrill extremists on each end of this issue scream at each other when a thread like this erupts. Yeah, emotionally-charged exchanges are the way to go.

Somewhere amongst all the noise, there's signal. I think I've managed to get close to it but it takes more than the occasional propaganda video. There's certainly enough historical printed matter to support Machiavellian manipulation in religion and politics (which have always been not-so-strange bedfellows). Surely enough evidence to show that the emperor has no clothes, God has no beard, and we really should pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

But what's funniest of all is the abject denial. The strident "no, our government would never mislead us" claims. Ironic proof that whatever is going is working, no?

:eyesroll:

[CN3089]

It's funny (to me anyway) to sit back and watch the shrill extremists on each end of this issue scream at each other when a thread like this erupts. Yeah, emotionally-charged exchanges are the way to go.

Somewhere amongst all the noise, there's signal. I think I've managed to get close to it but it takes more than the occasional propaganda video. There's certainly enough historical printed matter to support Machiavellian manipulation in religion and politics (which have always been not-so-strange bedfellows). Surely enough evidence to show that the emperor has no clothes, God has no beard, and we really should pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

But what's funniest of all is the abject denial. The strident "no, our government would never mislead us" claims. Ironic proof that whatever is going is working, no?

:eyesroll:

Only Texrat could see through the Government's fog of lies and deception. Only he could see the terrible truth of it all. He typed on his keyboard furiously, determined to show the teenagers of H2Vista.net the horrible facts only he was privy to.

[Texrat]

Holy shit, my sarcasm/bullshit/idiot/child detector just pegged at MAXIMUM. Sorry, gotta reboot everything, stat!

[TPBlinD]

I don't think any of you should believe anything that has been stated in this video.
Instead, read some of these books.

PART 1
* Special thanks to Acharya S (http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm) for her consultation for this section*
Massey, Gerald (http://www.africawithin.com/massey/gerald_massey.htm) - The Historic Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree
Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning Book Tree, 1998
Acharya S - The Christ Conspiracy (http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm), Adventures Unlimited Press
Massey, Gerald (http://www.africawithin.com/massey/gerald_massey.htm) - Ancient Egypt: Light of the World, Kessinger Publishing
Churchward, Albert -The Origin and Evolution of Religion, The Book Tree
Acharya S- Suns of God (http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm), Adventures Unlimited Press
Murdock, D.M. - Who was Jesus? (http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html), Steller House Publishing
Allegro, John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marco_Allegro) - The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books
Frazer, Sir James: The Golden Bough, Touchstone Pub., 1890
Maxwell (http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/), Tice, Snow - That Old Time Religion, The Book Tree
Rolleston, Frances: Mazzaroth (http://philologos.org/__eb-mazzaroth/), Rivingtons, Waterloo Place, 1862
Cumont, Franz: Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans (http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/argr/index.htm) Cosimo Classics 1912
King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman
Fideler, David: Jesus Christ, Sun of God Quest Books, 1993
Berry, Gerald: Religions Of The World, Barnes & Noble Pub., 1965
Leedom, Tim C - The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read, TS Books
Paine, Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine) - The Age of Reason
Wheless, Joseph: Forgery in Christianity (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/): A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion 1930Remsburg, John E. - The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence, Prometheus Books
Massey, Gerald (http://www.africawithin.com/massey/gerald_massey.htm) - Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Mysteries of Amenta, Kessinger Publishing
Irvin, Jan & Rutajit, Andrew (http://www.pharmacratic-inquisition.com/main/) - Astrotheology and Shamanism, The Book Tree
Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?, Age of Reason Pub.Campbell, Joseph - Creative Mythology: The Masks of God, PenguinDoane, T.W. - Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, Health Research Maxwell, Jordan (http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/): The Light of World (Film Series) IRESSingh, Madanjeet: The Sun- Symbol of Power and Life, UNESCO, 1993Flemming, Brian: The God Who Wasn't There (http://www.thegodmovie.com/)(Film)2005
The Naked Truth (Film) IRESJackson, John G. : Christianity Before Christ, American Atheist Press, 1985
PART 2
Griffin, David Ray - 911 The Myth and the Reality (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-275577066688213413&q=911%2BThe%2BMyth%2Band%2Bthe%2BReality&total=47&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)
Ruppert, Michael (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/)-The Truth and Lies of 9-11 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145)
Berger, Michael - Improbable Collapse (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4026073566596731782&q=Improbable%2BCollapse&total=58&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)
Avatar, LLC - 911 Mysteries (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8129564295534231536)
Hilder, Anthony J.- Illuminazi 911
Mugford, Dustin - September 11th Revisited (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4194796183168750014)
vonKleist, Dave - 911 In Plane Site
Hufschmid, Eric - Painful Deceptions (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1336167662031629480)
Rodriguez, William - What really happened on 9/11?
Zwicker, Barrie - 911 The Great Conspiracy (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623)
Duffy, John (http://www.911pressfortruth.com/) - 911 Press For Truth (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3979568779414136481&q=911%2BPress%2BFor%2BTruth&total=359&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1)
Jones, Alex - Martial Law 9/11
Jones, Alex - TerrorStorm (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947)
Hilder, Anthony J.-The Greatest Lie Ever Sold
Avery, Dylan - Loose Change 2nd Edition (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501)
Humphrey, George - 911 The Great Illusion


** Important Reference Books **
Ruppert, Michael (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/) - Crossing the Rubicon, New Society Publishers
Griffin, David Ray - The New Pearl Harbor, Interlink
Griffin, David Ray - Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Olive Branch Press
Tarpley, Webster (http://www.tarpley.net/) - 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, Progressive Press
Griffin, David Ray -The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions, Olive Branch Press
Marrs, Jim - The Terror Conspiracy: Deception, 9/11 and the Loss of Liberty, Disinformation Company
PART 3
Perloff, James - The Shadows of Power, Western Islands
Marrs, Jim - Rule by Secrecy, Harper Paperbacks
Dye, Thomas R. - The Irony of Democracy, Wadsworth PublishingGreider, William (http://www.williamgreider.com/) - Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, Simon & Schuster
F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Duell/Sloan/PearceAllen, Frederick Lewis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Lewis_Allen) - "Morgan The Great"/ Life Magazine - 4/25/1949Simpson, Colin - The Lusitania, Little BrownPool, James - Who Financed Hitler: the Secret Funding... ,Pocket Books
Epperson, Ralph A. -The Unseen Hand
Sutton, Anthony C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_C._Sutton) - Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, G S G & Associates PubSutton, Anthony C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_C._Sutton). - The Federal Reserve Conspiracy, G S G & Associates PubAllen, Gary - The Rockefeller File (http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/gary_allen_rocker/), 76 Pr Lundberg, Ferdinand - America's Sixty Families, Citidell PressMcfadden, Louis - On the Federal Reserve, (http://www.afn.org/%7Egovern/mcfadden.html)Congressional Record 1934Allen, Gary - The Bankers , Conspiratorial Origins of the Federal Reserve, American Opinion
Larson, Martin - The Federal Reserve
House, Edward Mandell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_M._House) -The Intimate Papers Of Colonel House, Kessinger Publishing
Sutton, Anthony C. - Wall Street and FDR, Arlington House
Wilson, Woodrow - The New Freedom
Russo, Aaron - America: Freedom To Fascism (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=Freedom%2BTo%2BFascism%5C&total=973&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0) (film)
Iserbyt, Charlotte Thompson - The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/), 3d Research Co
Stinnett, Robert - Day Of Deceit, Free Press
Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America, spp.gov
Jaikaran, Jacques S. - Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing
Benson, Bill -The Law That Never Was (http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp)
Griffin, G. Edward (http://www.freedom-force.org/), The Creature from Jekyll Island, American Media
Grace Commision Report (http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/gracecom.htm) - 1984 - Reagan Admin

[Texrat]

I tried to read "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America", but I couldn't understand it.

[kungpow]

/sigh at religion ESPECIALLY Christianity and catholicism.

I'm an athiest and i find what religion does and what it stands for just stupid and superstitious. I personaly think everyone would be better off with religion but far be it from me to say what you can and cannot believe in the comfort of your own home. But religions like Christianity run countries such as America. This i cannot believe, it is ridiculous to think that anyone can run a country under such false stories and a book based on hideously bad morals.

[Texrat]

How can anyone be an atheist? Ya can't prove God doesn't exist.

Doesn't agnosticism make more sense?

[TeeKup]

/sigh at religion ESPECIALLY Christianity and catholicism.

I'm an athiest and i find what religion does and what it stands for just stupid and superstitious. I personaly think everyone would be better off with religion but far be it from me to say what you can and cannot believe in the comfort of your own home. But religions like Christianity run countries such as America. This i cannot believe, it is ridiculous to think that anyone can run a country under such false stories and a book based on hideously bad morals.

I'm curious, have you read the bible, and do you have even a basic understanding of Christianity or Catholicism. I ask this because a lot of athiests I've met are not what they seem to be, they hate religion just so they could fit in or for the sake of hating something.

[kungpow]

@Texrat you cant prove that there is an invisible green man on your head right now and will disapear into non exisitance after you read this. So it must be real?

@Teekup i have indeed read the bible and i used to be a devout roman catholic as i was raised to believe such. As i grew up and came to understand what these stories were all about (and yes STORIES) they are profoundly racist bigoted and downright manipulative.

EDIT: Not to mention there is ZERO proof there is any kind of god and dont say Creationism because that is a load of crap im sorry to say.

[Texrat]

@Texrat you cant prove that there is an invisible green man on your head right now and will disapear into non exisitance after you read this. So it must be real?

BUZZ! Fatal logic failure. Reboot, log into discussion again. Password: agnostic.

[TeeKup]

Understood then.

[mined]

I tried to read "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America", but I couldn't understand it.

I lol'd.



Tex, after I saw your avatar yesterday, I knew it was only a matter of time before one of your epic philosophy debates came to life. It sounds like the word "agnostic" may have been the trigger?

[Texrat]

It sounds like the word "agnostic" may have been the trigger?

Yeah, but I hoped to trigger "Oshi wtf you are correct that makes more sense" instead of "OMG you effing idiot you did not prove God exists!!!"

Obviously my approach requires refinement.

[kungpow]

BUZZ! Fatal logic failure. Reboot, log into discussion again. Password: agnostic.

Well Texrat why would i be a believer to a "God" that is (According to the scriptures) for example this is Gods advice right from the bible is a family member or anyone comes up to you and sais you should follow a different god "You must kill him, your hands must strike the first blow in puting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from your God." how is it anyone can even have faith in such a "Devinne Existance"

As for being agnostic i don't believe things without evidence. Faith is not a good thing nor is it a virtue.

[Emmzee]

/Christianity and catholicism.
Catholicism IS Christianity, genius.

[Texrat]

Catholicism IS Christianity, genius.

Well... at least one of the 51 flavors.


Well Texrat why would i be a believer to a "God" that is (According to the scriptures) for example this is Gods advice right from the bible is a family member or anyone comes up to you and sais you should follow a different god "You must kill him, your hands must strike the first blow in puting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from your God." how is it anyone can even have faith in such a "Devinne Existance"

Dude. You are so far afield of my comment I don't know how to redirect you to the point. Try mapquest.

[kungpow]

Yes sorry i didn't really address your comment.
i did edit in "As for being agnostic i don't believe things without evidence. Faith is not a good thing nor is it a virtue." just because you cant disprove or PROVE for that matter that god exists does not make it real in even the slightest. i believe that science will answer the questions that religion tries to desperately to answer all in good time.

[Emmzee]

Yes sorry i didn't really address your comment.
i did edit in "As for being agnostic i don't believe things without evidence. Faith is not a good thing nor is it a virtue." just because you cant disprove or PROVE for that matter that god exists does not make it real in even the slightest. i believe that science will answer the questions that religion tries to desperately to answer all in good time.
You're Agnostic?

You just want to cover all your bases, so in the end of it all, you will always be right.


Pick a side.

[kungpow]

GAH! I'm an Atheist not agnostic i was saying how could i be agnostic since i only believe things with evidence. To believe in god without being religious is silly.

[Texrat]

I never even offered up my view on God in the thread. I simply pointed out the illogic of the atheist position. I have no problem whatsoever with agnosticism. At least it's intellectually honest.

And I'm betting that spirtuality (the real stuff, not man's myth) fills the gaps that science can't. You know, quantum mortar between classically physical bricks. ;)


To believe in god without being religious is silly.

Au contraire. Religion is an artifice. God may or may not be (the jury is still out). See comment above about spirtuality.

[TeeKup]

I find god awesome, he's caused his believes to kill each other on such a massive scale its ridiculous. He's the most brutal and metal being of all time.

I just don't turn to him for support, like he'll actually do anything to save others. If he DOES exist, he doesn't help us because its our responsibility to learn from life, we can't have him holding our hand at every crisis, we would become weak as beings otherwise.

[Texrat]

I find god awesome, he's caused his believes to kill each other on such a massive scale its ridiculous. He's the most brutal and metal being of all time.

I just don't turn to him for support, like he'll actually do anything to save others. If he DOES exist, he doesn't help us because its our responsibility to learn from life, we can't have him holding our hand at every crisis, we would become weak as beings otherwise.

You're confused. That's not a god. That's Man. You know, the one who insinuated myth into a code of ethics and called it a Bible.

[kungpow]

Quantum Physics is an entirely different matter to organized religion just FYI and it is a form of science and it has a lot of ground to cover before it hold any real ground within the scientific community. I'm not being illogical to disbelieve in something that cannot be proven wrong or right I'm simply being a realist.

[TeeKup]

You're confused. That's not a god. That's Man. You know, the one who insinuated myth into a code of ethics and called it a Bible.

Oh right, how could I have been so stupid. Owai- RELIGION

[Texrat]

Quantum Physics is an entirely different matter to organized religion just FYI and it is a form of science and it has a lot of ground to cover before it hold any real ground within the scientific community. I'm not being illogical to disbelieve in something that cannot be proven wrong or right I'm simply being a realist.

As a lay scientist, I'm very familiar with quantum physics (mechanics), thank you.

And you'll have to ponder what I said a little longer than Internet time to get the deeper meaning.

Finally, yes, it is illogical to religiously believe something does not exist. But irony prevents me from explaining it further. Sorry.

[TeeKup]

All I have to say is, I'll let god show himself in, so to speak. And if heaven and hell DO exist, me and my friends are all going to the 3rd circle at the same time hopefully so we can all fight Cerberus together, its going to be epic.

[Texrat]

All I have to say is, I'll let god show himself in, so to speak. And if heaven and hell DO exist, me and my friends are all going to the 3rd circle at the same time hopefully so we can all fight Cerberus together, its going to be epic.

Will there be popcorn?

How much are tickets?

[Con]

Tickets? They'll cost you your SOUL!

[Texrat]

Tickets? They'll cost you your SOUL!

Shit, Connie, I just wanna watch, not apply for membership.

asshat. I mean <3

[TeeKup]

Will there be popcorn?

How much are tickets?

No popcorn but blazing hail and acid rain, while fighting him naked, so says the Divine Comedy.

The first circle is the most brutal, you have to run through a feild of mutant hell hornets and bees, when they sting you bloody and puse will leak out, once it hits the ground maggots will feast on it.

The book is totally epic in its own right.

[Texrat]

No popcorn but blazing hell and acid rain, while fighting him naked, so says the Divine Comedy.

The first circle is the most brutal, you have to run through a feild of mutant hell hornets and bees, when they sting you bloody and puss will leak out, once it hits the ground maggots will feast on it.

The book is totally epic in its own right.

I am bringing an umbrella and raincoat. Sounds like a goddam Gallagher concert. :mad:

[CN3089]

How can anyone be an atheist? Ya can't prove God doesn't exist.

Doesn't agnosticism make more sense?

Why should the burden of proof lie with the skeptic? You can't prove there's a teapot in orbit around Neptune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell&#37;27s_teapot), but you don't say that the probability that there is one is equal to the probability that there isn't one.


Quantum Physics is an entirely different matter to organized religion just FYI and it is a form of science and it has a lot of ground to cover before it hold any real ground within the scientific community.

What? Quantum mechanics is the ground of modern physics. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/CN3089/Emoticons/emot-psyduck.gif

[kungpow]

You'll have to forgive me on that one lol i havnt studied Quantum Mechanics for 2 and a half years. I made a dumb assumption lol xD but it is very seperate from religion there are just some people who take advantage of quantum theory to a convince people about spiritual things.

[Emmzee]

I find god awesome, he's caused his believes to kill each other on such a massive scale its ridiculous. He's the most brutal and metal being of all time.
Yeah, God's a total badass.

[Texrat]

Why should the burden of proof lie with the skeptic? You can't prove there's a teapot in orbit around Neptune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell&#37;27s_teapot), but you don't say that the probability that there is one is equal to the probability that there isn't one.

There I was thinking you were sharp, and you spoil it by missing the point.

Oh, and you misapplied Russell's analogy, too.

[Texrat]

it is very seperate from religion there are just some people who take advantage of quantum theory to a convince people about spiritual things.

You wanna split hairs over the definition of religion, or does that sound like too much work?

[Emmzee]

There I was thinking you were sharp, and you spoil it by missing the point.
You mean the point that this entire argument is never going to have a victor because each side is deeply entrenched in its own beliefs?

I hate it when people miss that.

[Texrat]

You mean the point that this entire argument is never going to have a victor because each side is deeply entrenched in its own beliefs?

I hate it when people miss that.

Well, I missed that one. :lol:

But, yeah, for me it's academic. I realize I'm not changing any minds and no one's gonna change mine, not with with illogic and flawed applications of philosophy. ;) As _mined_ obviously understands, this stuff is... fun.

[kungpow]

One is faith (Belief without Evidence) and the other is Science (Belief with nothing but evidence).

[Texrat]

One is faith (Belief without Evidence) and the other is Science (Belief with nothing but evidence).

Um... no. Technically anything that ends in -ism is a religion. Except maybe schism. Perhaps even that. :lol:

Before I prove it with a little blue hyperlink... ya wanna wager?

[kungpow]

Im here for killing time realy give me this link heh

[Texrat]

Stranger to dictionary.com? No problem:

re·li·gion http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Freligion)/rɪˈlɪdʒhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngən/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-lij-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8.Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow. —Idiom
9.get religion, Informal.
a.to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b.to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.

Here's a nifty trick I learned as a lad: do your homework before stepping into the argument. Shit, how would I know you dashed off to a reference and got your stuff straight? :lol:

[kungpow]

Right.......where in there does it say religion is NOT faith? and sets its belief on evidence?

[Texrat]

Right.......where in there does it say religion is NOT faith? and sets its belief on evidence?

You must be looking for definition #6. Although I don't recall bringing the word "evidence" into the discussion...

Look, I'm trying to spare you from making yourself look foolish. In it's most basic form, a religion is a system of belief. That's it. The qualifiers you apply need not apply. ;) You can continue protesting, but... I don't think it's going to change anything.

Maybe if you went back in time and beat the crap out of Mr. Webster, though.

[kungpow]

You dont recall evidence being brought up? how about looking at my statement you quoted -_- "One is faith (Belief without Evidence) and the other is Science (Belief with nothing but evidence)." and you said i was wrong so i assumed you were going to say its based on some evidence. Obviously not

Also apparently its illogical to think there is no god. Please explain

[Texrat]

You dont recall evidence being brought up? how about looking at my statement you quoted -_- "One is faith (Belief without Evidence) and the other is Science (Belief with nothing but evidence)." and you said i was wrong so i assumed you were going to say its based on some evidence. Obviously not

Also apparently its illogical to think there is no god. Please explain

*I* didn't introduce the word evidence into the discussion, is what I'm saying. And I dismissed your mention of it because it was embedded in an improperly-narrow definition, as I showed. Now, if you wanted to say that was one definition instead of the definition I would have cheerfully agreed with you. Remember the hair-split comment? :p

And I oversimplified the bit about disbelieving in God, because I was in a facetious mood. If you're really interested, though, google "disproving a negative" and read some of the philosphical explorations on the subject.

The basic point is that it makes more sense, probability-wise, to doubt the existence of a god (agnosticism) than to state he/she/it absolutely doesn't exist (tendency of atheists). The Celestial Teapot was misapplied in part because the thought experiment defies probability... not to mention the fact that Bertrand Russell was arguing against believers in God, not disbelievers. ;)

[kungpow]

I never implied that there was only one meaning to the word religion nor one meaning to the word science. And the teapot argument has just as much probability as the existence of god does. God has no evidence to exist and is quite irrational and silly to think he exists let alone interacts with us and performs miracles. I state he doesn't exist due to ZERO evidence and due to things that are just plain silly to believe. Since you don't like the teapot argument how about why don't you believe in Zeus or Thor? Why arnt you agnostic towards them?

[Texrat]

I never implied that there was only one meaning to the word religion

Wow, really? Maybe my Interweb tubes are corroded, because that's how your words looked on my end. Huh. I need more disinfectant.


nor one meaning to the word science.

How did THAT sneaky bastard get into this??? :mad:


And the teapot argument has just as much probability as the existence of god does. God has no evidence to exist and is quite irrational and silly to think he exists let alone interacts with us and performs miracles. I state he doesn't exist due to ZERO evidence and due to things that are just plain silly to believe.

Congratulations on your straw man. Now hang a sign on him that says "Texrat never claimed there was proof of God's existence", and we're done.

:p

[kungpow]

Note the "." at the end of me saying he has no probability, when i said he has no evidence was me simply saying why its not illogical to believe that any kind of deity doesnt exists. I don't see any reason to believe in anything that has no evidence to exist and even if he does exist well according to the bible we are all fucked and going right to hell.

[Texrat]

You get points for persistence, that's for sure.

You lose some for half-baked arguments and equivocating, though. I do like this one:

"...me simply saying why its not illogical to believe that any kind of deity exists"

I think you turned left when you meant to turn right. Maybe that explains how you steered clear of my original point.

[kungpow]

Lol... misstyped that one big time xD you get what i meant thats all that matters. Heres a question for you

Why don't you believe in Thor or Zeus? They both have theology behind them just like Christianity and catholicism and you cant prove that they don't exist so why is it you arnt agnostic towards them?

It seems you ducked this question before.

Just as a side note i am very bad at debating things like this, since i usually debate with facts and not faith which cannot be dis proven because anyone who has faith in god is just believing it for no reason at all (At least no reason pointing towards that god even exists).

[Texrat]

I believe in Thor/Zeus. It was probably a big ass volcano that really made an impression on some displaced natives. The Jews renamed it Yahweh.

And how could you possibly think you have a peg on my belief system at this point? Hell I'm still reconfiguring it!

And I like to debate with facts, too, but logic is more fun. Faith and emotion not so much. I have faith in logic though.

[kungpow]

Zeus was a thunder god because science wasn't at the point where it could explain things such as thunder or lightning. That being said i don't see why we repeat the same mistakes, the majority of people seem to believe in god simply because we cant explain everything yet. When science (yes when) explains the origin of the universe and how it came to be religion wont have a leg to stand on accept of course the people who will simply believe in god and ignore scriptures and such as they do already which is obviously denial.

Also i would like to hear why you think its logical to say god exists.

[Texrat]

That's the conventional myth story, sure. I think they still teach it in grade school. I've been drilling down into myths for the past several years. Brace yourself: there's some serious science hidden inside every box.

And where did I say it was logical for God to exist? I'm not saying it isn't (Nature DOES abhor a vacuum, after all, and if the job was open she'd fill it), but if I explicitly said it, then I'm getting checked for Alzheimer's. Tomorrow.

Also, web site is fuxx0ring and I'm running outta creative steam.

[kungpow]

explain why being an agnostic is logical then (which is what i should have asked)

[Texrat]

explain why being an agnostic is logical then (which is what i should have asked)

Because it doesn't venture into illogic. Doubting God without proof is logical.

EDIT: I think I'm liking this place better than gbx. Already I've been inspired to begin writing on my novel again. Thanks for your help. ;)

[kungpow]

And dismissing god without proof is illogical?

EDIT: What is there to make me even open the possibility that there is a god?

[Agamemnon]

Ah, the age old battle of "logic" and "faith." You should go out and meet a physicist minister. Apparently both can coexist if you're willing to open your eyes.

[Texrat]

And dismissing god without proof is illogical?

EDIT: What is there to make me even open the possibility that there is a god?

Dismissing the possibility of God without proof either way is illogical. Don't confuse dismissal with doubt.

And I have nothing that will make you consider possibilities, sorry... especially since I'm reconfiguring my own belief system. Talk to a priest.

[Texrat]

Ah, the age old battle of "logic" and "faith." You should go out and meet a physicist minister. Apparently both can coexist if you're willing to open your eyes.

Those guys rock. I don't believe in everything he does, but I love Dr. Hugh Ross:

http://www.reasons.org/

[kungpow]

Why is it you dismiss the possibility of there being a celestial teapot? You have no proof there isn't one?

[Agamemnon]

Those guys rock. I don't believe in everything he does, but I love Dr. Hugh Ross:

http://www.reasons.org/
I didn't know he had his own site. He does a lot of spot-on work for the History Channel though. When ever there's something about Galileo on, he's usually part of it.


Why is it you dismiss the possibility of there being a celestial teapot? You have no proof there isn't one?
It doesn't work that way. At least, your logical stand point of view makes you think it does, but it doesn't.

[kungpow]

Then how does it work? -_-

[Texrat]

I said the teapot was improbable. I also said the original reference in this thread was misguided and gave reasons.

And the celestial teapot analogy is just a thought experiment. It has supporters and detractors. Even some supporters of the raw concept (like Dawkins) quibble with some of Russell's tenets. It's a fun exercise to kick around, but it's still academic.

[kungpow]

So basically you don't dismiss anything whatsoever as long as you cant prove it doesn't exist?

EDIT: Woot 100 (well 102) posts!

[Texrat]

So basically you don't dismiss anything whatsoever as long as you cant prove it doesn't exist?

EDIT: Woot 100 (well 102) posts!

Strange aspects of quantum mechanics suggest that whatever can be conceived can exist. There are even more bizarre aspects but I'm too tired to go into them. 'night.

[kungpow]

Well i have nothing further to say other than i need to study quantum mechanics again.

[Snooper1989]

Religion is like Schrodinger's cat.

[n00b1n8R]

how?

[Snooper1989]

God is what's in the box, it exists and doesn't exist at the same time.

[rossmum]

/sigh at religion ESPECIALLY Christianity and catholicism.

I'm an athiest and i find what religion does and what it stands for just stupid and superstitious. I personaly think everyone would be better off with religion but far be it from me to say what you can and cannot believe in the comfort of your own home. But religions like Christianity run countries such as America. This i cannot believe, it is ridiculous to think that anyone can run a country under such false stories and a book based on hideously bad morals.
Right, because obviously you know all there is to know on the subject.

If you could possibly make any more sweeping generalisations in a single post, I would be amazed. You basically took every single (largely incorrect) assumption atheists hold about religion and vomited them out in one terribly-worded statement, congratulations. I'm not even particularly religious, but I have seen the same ignorant crap so often it's not funny.

Just let the people believe in what they fucking want to. Atheists who try and force their views and 'facts' (:rolleyes:) on religious people are just as bad as those they criticise. Keep your beliefs - or lack of - to yourself.


You'll have to forgive me on that one lol i havnt studied Quantum Mechanics for 2 and a half years.
Considering it's the basis of our current understanding of the fundamental building blocks of the universe, I really do hope you aren't seeking a job which relies on knowledge of physics.


Ah, the age old battle of "logic" and "faith." You should go out and meet a physicist minister. Apparently both can coexist if you're willing to open your eyes.
I've found a middle ground between religion and science which I'm quite happy with. The extremists on both sides of the argument are idiots, you'd think they would have realised by now that they can neither prove nor disprove that God exists, and you can quite easily fit scientific knowledge in with religious faith if you bother to shut up and think for a minute...

[n00b1n8R]

I'll belive it when I see it.

[jahrain]

If you could possibly make any more sweeping generalisations in a single post, I would be amazed. You basically took every single (largely incorrect) assumption atheists hold about religion and vomited them out in one terribly-worded statement, congratulations. I'm not even particularly religious, but I have seen the same ignorant crap so often it's not funny.
Hate to be the one who has to point out the irony in that post. But I just hate it when I see some person from group X bashing some other group Y saying that group Y negatively generalizes group X.


I'll belive it when I see it.
You can't see air, but it exists! Therefore there must exist a god lol!

[Dr Nick]

I'll belive it when I have proof it exists.

ftfy.

[rossmum]

Hate to be the one who has to point out the irony in that post. But I just hate it when I see some person from group X bashing some other group Y saying that group Y negatively generalizes group X.
Forgive me, it appears I mislaid the "more zealous" that should've appeared in that post.

[n00b1n8R]

what nick said.

see was probably the wrong word.
I can feel air. and I suppose at long distances you can see it obscuring things (and you can certainly see it in dirty citys).

[rossmum]

That's photochemical smog, not air. Nitrogen dixoide, nitrogen oxide and nitrous oxide. NO and NO2 are brown gases.

There's some ozone in it, too.

[n00b1n8R]

and this smog defies gravity how?

[Texrat]

and this smog defies gravity how?

Midichlorians?

[n00b1n8R]

Midichlorians?

:ssh:

[nooBBooze]

I dont think any religion is "right" since religion is all made (up?) by man and i really doubt a/the divinity(ies) completely agree (s) to the way they are being worshipped by their followers. Id rather prefer if anyone tries to find his own way to a certain spirituality - that would maximize the chances of at least one of us being right instead of betting on a just few established religoins.
As i once saw it in a sig of a member aroud here: i dont hate god - its just his fanclubs that annoy me.

And furthermore scientific reasearch really should stick to unbiased empiric facts otherwise it cant be called "scientific" and would therefore be just a big brown pile of propaganda. Of course this doesnt denie the possibility to discuss and use the results of research even in a religous and ethical way.

And just in case, my avatar doesnt represent my actual opinion. it really represents my worries about those creepy evangelican folks.

[Texrat]

And just in case, my avatar doesnt represent my actual opinion. it really represents my worries about those creepy evangelican folks.

Try rotating it 180 degrees.

[rossmum]

and this smog defies gravity how?
Ever wonder why it hangs so low in the sky? :downs:

[Texrat]

Ever wonder why it hangs so low in the sky? :downs:

wimpy Midichlorians?

[StankBacon]

i love the U.S.A.

[Phopojijo]

Uh... don't bump please.